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Mewtaph's Mini Normal Review, December 2018

https://forum.mafiascum-staging.net/viewtopic.php?t=78104

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Mewtaph's Mini Normal Review, December 2018

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:29 pm
by implosion
Mewtaph wrote:Proposed Setup for Mini Normal (13p)

Even-Night Disloyal Babysitter

Odd-Night Loyal Babysitter

1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop

1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper

Vanilla Townie 6x

--
Mafia Jack of All Trades

- 1x Activated Encryptor
- 1x Strongman

Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon

- Receives information about the setup varying based on number of PR flips

Mafia Goon


Mafia will not have day talk without the activation of 1x Encryptor, which will allow communication on the following day phase only.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:29 pm
by implosion
Primary: schadd_
Secondary: Performer

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:39 pm
by schadd_
can you elaborate on how you would implement activated encryptor? i don't think that is something we have precedent for but implo and i are talking about it

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:42 pm
by schadd_
also i believe our definition of informed requires that the information be set in stone at the beginning of the game (though implo has ruled it's fine to use a delayed inform like you did)

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:54 pm
by implosion
Yeah, I don't think I want to open the door for informed roles that get variable information depending on the gamestate in late days. Feels a bit theme-y and is tough to formalize since it only works for night-N informed.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:28 pm
by schadd_
we also need to see your rules and role PMs (it's fine if you want to wait until we iron out the setup to write these out)

anyway to keep myself from hyperposting i will go on to talk balance as i see it

disloyal babysitter is a neat idea !!! somewhat of a weak ability however - something like a 0.2-shot disloyal vigilante - i.e., can only work once after they are killed on an even night which will happen about 1/5 of the time (between 2 and 3 people will end up dying between night 2, 4, 6).

loyal babysitter - i don't have enough of a sample size to say how often babysitter backfires but i would say this is probably pretty weak as well - in terms of kills saved it is probably half as strong as odd-night doctor? consider: with fully random kills it has zero effect on the amount of town killed. so you can only expect it to properly heal kills when it is clear who is going to get killed, which is only some of the time. 1-shot strongman makes that a lot harder. it is also hard to claim and you kind of have to stop using it after doing so (or claim vt).

1-shot vig + rolecop - first of all, i would parse this to mean a full rolecop that also has the choice to use vigilante instead once. this is a pretty strong role - JOAT should just be a guilty (it should give the strongman/encryptor information as well which are scum roles), informed is often scum lately (especially as the sole part of a role that doesn't claim it), babysitters are usually town. vig is always good, great when there are protectives to get the mislynch back. there's the bonus thing that it can shoot the JOAT and avoid PRs it finds but thats pretty marginal

1-shot follower jailkeeper - essentially just a jailkeeper, i don't see follower being preferable very often and if so it will be by a small margin - consider that jailkeeper gets picked a lot more often than tracker in pick your power x/y (4/5 times in games i looked through). but jk is jk, strong role.

i would say this is edges toward scum-sided altogether. i think a great place to add something is to the disloyal babysitter - for example, taking the follower away from the jailkeeper and giving it to them (promoting it to odd night even) would push it closer to even, since it has a better chance of being killed as well. you are also obviously invited to make any change you feel is apt to what you want for the setup

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:31 pm
by Mewtaph
1x Activated Encryptor usage

The Mafia JOAT would use their 1x Encryptor on N1, and for D2 the Mafia PT will remain open. The shot would be consumed.

I'm leaning towards it not being able to be used pregame for D1, only N1 onwards.

--

I understand the concerns about informed being variable. I am fine with giving pre-determined information unreliant on the number of town flips. (this would be the first spoilered bit.) Bolded are the roles that the information refers to, to make it easier to read. When the mafia receives the information, it will not be bolded.

Spoiler:
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, 3 or more of the following roles exist in some form and are alive at the beginning of Night 2.
  1. Universal Backup
  2. Rolecop

  3. Innocent Child
  4. Babysitter

  5. Vigilante

  6. Paranoid Gun Owner
  7. Neapolitan

Required:
  1. Town 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper is the only dead town PR, OR:
  2. No town PRs are revealed.
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, 2 or more of the following roles must exist.
  1. Paranoid Gun Owner
  2. Vigilante

  3. Innocent Child
  4. Rolecop

  5. Neapolitan
  6. Doctor
  7. Universal Backup

Required:
  1. 1 or more Babysitters have died.
  2. The Town 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop is still alive.
  3. The Town 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper can be alive or dead.
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, exactly 1 or 2 of the following roles exist in some form and are alive at the beginning of Night 2.
  1. Follower

  2. Neapolitan
  3. Jailkeeper

  4. Paranoid Gun Owner
  5. Universal Backup
  6. Innocent Child
  7. Doctor

Required:
  1. One or more Babysitters are dead.
  2. The Town 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop is dead.
  3. Town 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper is still alive.
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, exactly 1 or 2 of the following roles exist in some form and are alive at the beginning of Night 2.
  1. Follower

  2. Neapolitan
  3. Jailkeeper

  4. Paranoid Gun Owner
  5. Universal Backup
  6. Innocent Child
  7. Doctor

Required:
  1. At least one Babysitter has died. (The other may still be alive.)
  2. The Town 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop is dead.
  3. The Town 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper is alive.
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, exactly 0 or 1 of the following roles exist in some form and are alive at the beginning of Night 2.
  1. Neapolitan
  2. Universal Backup
  3. Babysitter
  4. Innocent Child
  5. Paranoid Gun Owner

Required:
  1. No Babysitters have died.
  2. The Town 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper is dead.
  3. The Town 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop is dead.
Night 2 Information Received
Image

Outside of you and your partners, all of the town PRs are dead.


Required:
  1. All of the town PRs are dead.
    (Extremely rare case but theoretically possible)

I would probably opt to send this info straight into the Mafia PT regardless of its iteration as soon as Night 2 began as long as the Informed Goon is still alive at the beginning of Night 2.

--

Going to come with role PMs, OP, ruleset, etc in next posts.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:36 pm
by Mewtaph
Note that for all of these I have the game number as 2051 but I'm willing to go back and change it to whatever number the game is at when the game enters the queue (messed up my timing on that).

Mini Normal 2051 :
Winter's Sacrifice

by Mewtaph, reviewed by implosion, schadd_ and Performer

Image


CURRENT STATUS:
Day 1

PHASE DEADLINE:
(expired on 2018-12-27 04:47:37)



PLAYERLIST:

  1. Playername
  2. Playername
  3. Playername
  4. Playername
  5. Playername
  6. Playername
  7. Playername
  8. Playername
  9. Playername
  10. Playername
  11. Playername
  12. Playername
  13. Playername
ALIVE :

Spoiler: (13/13)

DEAD :

Spoiler: (0/13)
None yet!

EVENTS :

Spoiler:

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:36 pm
by Mewtaph
GAME RULES


GENERAL

Spoiler:
-Adhere to all site rules.
-Always play to win.
-Remember that this is a game - heated discussion is allowed, but personal attacks are not. Comment on play, not player.
-Pretending to break the rules will be treated similarly as actually breaking the rules.
-Do not quote any private communication regarding this game—this includes your role PM, other mod communication, posts from private threads, etc. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you're unsure, ask me first.
-If you need to get my attention, please include "
@mod
" in your post or PM me.
-
This
(#0080BF) is my color. You can use it, if you want, but I'd prefer you didn't.
-Do not use encryption, hidden text or excessively small text in your posts.
-Do not use any form of provable randomness. This includes dice tags, screenshots of random.org, etc. Saying you flipped a coin is okay, providing some sort of proof that you did isn’t.
-Each day phase will last for 12 days, with night phases lasting 48 hours.
-Do not post in the game thread or any private topics following your death, with the exception of the dead thread.
-If you have the ability to edit your posts, do not do so.
-My decisions are final. If I feel you are violating any of the rules, I will take the appropriate action.
-As a general principle, whenever moderator action is required I will attempt to make the decision that has the least impact on the natural flow of gameplay. For example, force replacing instead of modkilling whenever possible.
-Have fun!


VOTING

Spoiler:
-All votes and unvotes must be in
bold
or in VOTE: tags, with vote tags being preferable.
-Votes in spoilers will not be counted.
-Abbreviations and nicknames are acceptable, as long as I can understand them.
-Unvotes are not necessary before revoting.
-Lynches will occur when a majority (>50%) is reached. If no majority is reached before deadline, the day will end in a no-lynch
-Voting to end the day in a no-lynch requires only 50% of players rather than >50%.
-Once a hammer has occurred, the game is in "twilight". Discussion may continue until I lock the thread but no further votes or unvotes will be counted.


ACTIVITY

Spoiler:
-You are expected to make at least one game-relevant post every 48 hours. Players who go 48 hours without posting will be prodded.
-If you are prodded, you have 24 hours to post in-thread. If you do not respond within 24 hours, you will be replaced. Additionally, if I have to prod you 3 or more times, I reserve the right to replace you at my own discretion.
-Abuse of prod dodges will result in you being replaced at my own discretion.
-If you are going to be V/LA, please announce it in thread or PM me. If your V/LA will last 7 days or longer I may be forced to replace you.


SETUP

-Night actions this game will follow Natural Action Resolution.
-If you do not send me an action for the night, I will assume that you are not taking one.
-The Mafia private thread remaining open during the day would be dependent on the existence and survival of a Mafia Encryptor.
-At least one player has received the following role:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities. Your vote is your weapon.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:41 pm
by schadd_
In post 6, Mewtaph wrote:I would probably opt to send this info straight into the Mafia PT regardless of its iteration as soon as Night 2 began as long as the Informed Goon is still alive at the beginning of Night 2.
yup, i think that's fine (if its not i have broken this rule with scum PRs before lmao)

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:44 pm
by Mewtaph
Town


Even-Night Disloyal Babysitter
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are an
Even-Night Disloyal Babysitter
.

Abilities:

You may target a player on even-numbered nights to protect them. However, if you are killed that night, both you and your target will die.
This action will only succeed when targeting a player of a different alignment. You will not be notified if your action has failed or succeeded.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


Odd-Night Loyal Babysitter
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are an
Odd-Night Loyal Babysitter
.

Abilities:

You may target a player on odd-numbered nights to protect them. However, if you are killed that night, both you and your target will die.
This action will only succeed when targeting a player of the same alignment. You will not be notified if your action has failed or succeeded.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop
.

Abilities:

Once in the game, you may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may target a player each night to learn their role. There is no indication of the target's alignment; if a Mafia Goon or Vanilla Townie is investigated, they return "Vanilla".
You cannot use both of your actions in a single night phase.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper
.

Abilities:

Once in the game, you may target a player at night to learn what form of action they took that night, but not who they targeted.
You may target a player each night to attempt to jailkeep them. This will simultaneously roleblock and protect your target from all night kills during the night.
You cannot use both of your actions in a single night phase.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


Vanilla Townie (6x)
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Vanilla Townie
.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities. Your vote is your weapon.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


--

Mafia


Night 2 Informed Goon
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia Jack of All Trades
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.
At the beginning of Night 2, if you are still alive, you and your partners will be informed on some details of the setup.
These details will alter in a pre-determined manner based on how many town PRs are alive at the start of Night 2 and how many have died.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


Jack of All Trades
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia Jack of All Trades
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia Goon
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.

You also have access to two abilities that you may use any time in the game.
Once in the game, you may allow the mafia PT to stay open for the following day phase only.
Once in the game, you may indicate that any kills performed by you cannot be blocked by any means.
You may not use both of your abilities in a single night. However, you may perform one of your abilities and the factional kill in same night if you choose to do so.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


Mafia Goon
Spoiler:
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia Goon
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia Jack of All Trades
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:46 pm
by schadd_
In post 6, Mewtaph wrote:1x Activated Encryptor usage
The Mafia JOAT would use their 1x Encryptor on N1, and for D2 the Mafia PT will remain open. The shot would be consumed.

I'm leaning towards it not being able to be used pregame for D1, only N1 onwards.
yeah with this definition it wouldn't be usable d1. this role should be fine though, i would just stipulate that it needs to be called "1-shot encryptor" so that it sounds less non-normal for the rolecop, if that makes sense - "activated encryptor" sounds like a variant of encryptor (which isn't a thing you can do in normals) but "1-shot encryptor" sounds like a way to parse existing normal rules

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:52 pm
by schadd_
starting posts look fine

you have some extra tabs in the role PMs, remember to edit the night 2 informed PM, also i would have the encryptor wording be "you may
choose to
allow the mafia pt[...]"

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:59 pm
by Mewtaph
On the babysitters usually not being able to get their action to target the right person in a 13p game and become less effective in mass claimed scenarios (loyal babysitter is forced to holster, but disloyal babysitter should be fine). If the mafia is too heavy on power, I could probably strip back on the Strongman for that reason because they don't actually need it to kill the 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop in a mass claim scenario. (Jailkeeper can't allow Rolecop to continue investigating, Disloyal Babysitter can't target rolecop.

I didn't realise that the Rolecop receives Jack of All Trades + modifiers, 1) so rolecop would receive: "Jack of All Trades (1x Encryptor, 1x Strongman)"?

On that note, 2) should I give full ability flips for the Mafia Jack of All Trades when/if it dies?

And, 3) should I return "Night 2 Informed Vanilla" or "Night 2 Informed" as a rolecop result on the informed goon?

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:13 pm
by schadd_
In post 13, Mewtaph wrote:On the babysitters usually not being able to get their action to target the right person in a 13p game and become less effective in mass claimed scenarios (loyal babysitter is forced to holster, but disloyal babysitter should be fine). If the mafia is too heavy on power, I could probably strip back on the Strongman for that reason because they don't actually need it to kill the 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop in a mass claim scenario. (Jailkeeper can't allow Rolecop to continue investigating, Disloyal Babysitter can't target rolecop.

I didn't realise that the Rolecop receives Jack of All Trades + modifiers, 1) so rolecop would receive: "Jack of All Trades (1x Encryptor, 1x Strongman)"?

On that note, 2) should I give full ability flips for the Mafia Jack of All Trades when/if it dies?

And, 3) should I return "Night 2 Informed Vanilla" or "Night 2 Informed" as a rolecop result on the informed goon?
getting rid of strongman would be good (i'm not a huge fan of the role anyway esp. with jailkeeper), though i still wouldn't think town is strong enough without it

yes for rolecop result

the wiki says JOAT's flip is up to you, i would be pretty strongly in favor of having the specific roles flip (if you choose to leave in strongman)

should be "night 2 informed" but they would be interpreted the same

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:21 pm
by Mewtaph
The babysitters have a strong incentive to stay hidden with the nature of their roles so I think two town members will have reason to be somewhat resistant to a mass claim. That being said, they aren't completely dead in a mass claim, and the disloyal babysitter could be followed or vigged, same with the loyal babysitter - though the possibility comes with multiple town deaths, so town gets punished if they direct the loyal babysitter incorrectly in that scenario.

Before mass claim, babysitters should crumb and act as cop clears post mortem when they die if they crumbed their night targets effectively due to their Loyal/Disloyal modifiers.

Having the babysitters on alternate nights means that both Babysitters can't be confirmed in the same night (vig one, follow the other).

Balance wise town has a rolecop that gets two guilties, a JK, some niche possible synergies with the babysitters which are traditionally town aligned, a follower to confirm babysitter night actions (to confirm the babysitter and that the babysitter action went through (most pertinent with the disloyal babysitter visiting a town/scum player) and a vigilante to potentially fulfill the same role (something like shooting the loyal babysitter when they are targeting a scum player, incorrect call on a town player will result in multiple town deaths).

For adding town power, we could probably start somewhere like making the disloyal babysitter ungated. The loyal babysitter can also be ungated if necessary and then beyond that I'm not sure where we could add more town power. Adding another town PR seems like there aren't enough VTs in the mix so I am fine with shoring up town's current PRs here.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:26 pm
by Mewtaph
I would also be fine with adjusting the power of the N2 information if necessary. Right now I'm on the plan that they will receive the first post in the spoiler which provides a fair bit on setup information.

Removing the strongman can be considered done and I'll also adjust the encryptor wording; will come up with a revised role PM there.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:31 pm
by Mewtaph
I see what's happening with the tabs. They should flow fine in role PM space vs thread it definitely looks pretty janky in thread. Should be fine I think unless the role PM space gets smaller on some mobile devices (someone alert me if they do).

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:47 pm
by Mewtaph
Here is what the mafia role PMs would look like after the suggested changes so far.

Spoiler: Mafia 1-Shot Encryptor (wording change, role change)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia 1-Shot Encryptor
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia Goon
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.
Once in the game, you may choose to allow the mafia PT to stay open for the following day phase only.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Spoiler: Mafia Goon (teammate role change)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia Goon
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia 1-Shot Encryptor
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Spoiler: Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon (teammate role change)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Mafia Night 2 Informed Goon
.

Abilities:

You have two mafia partners, playername, who is a
Mafia 1-Shot Encryptor
, and playername, who is a
Mafia Goon
.
As a member of the Mafia, you have access to a factional nightkill: each night one of you may kill another player.
At the beginning of Night 2, if you are still alive, you and your partners will be informed on some details of the setup.

Win condition:

You win when the mafia make up at least 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your private topic is here.
The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:10 pm
by schadd_
In post 15, Mewtaph wrote:The babysitters have a strong incentive to stay hidden with the nature of their roles so I think two town members will have reason to be somewhat resistant to a mass claim. That being said, they aren't completely dead in a mass claim, and the disloyal babysitter could be followed or vigged, same with the loyal babysitter - though the possibility comes with multiple town deaths, so town gets punished if they direct the loyal babysitter incorrectly in that scenario.

Before mass claim, babysitters should crumb and act as cop clears post mortem when they die if they crumbed their night targets effectively due to their Loyal/Disloyal modifiers.

Having the babysitters on alternate nights means that both Babysitters can't be confirmed in the same night (vig one, follow the other).

Balance wise town has a rolecop that gets two guilties, a JK, some niche possible synergies with the babysitters which are traditionally town aligned, a follower to confirm babysitter night actions (to confirm the babysitter and that the babysitter action went through (most pertinent with the disloyal babysitter visiting a town/scum player) and a vigilante to potentially fulfill the same role (something like shooting the loyal babysitter when they are targeting a scum player, incorrect call on a town player will result in multiple town deaths).

For adding town power, we could probably start somewhere like making the disloyal babysitter ungated. The loyal babysitter can also be ungated if necessary and then beyond that I'm not sure where we could add more town power. Adding another town PR seems like there aren't enough VTs in the mix so I am fine with shoring up town's current PRs here.
it's hard to say exactly how much use town will get out of the babysitters, yeah. at present i don't think follower really interacts with babysitters very much since there is a pretty specific set of circumstances required to enable that and i contend that follower would be used infrequently to begin with (as boring as it is i would recommend taking it out just so the jailkeeper has less to worry about each night - jailkeeper is already tough to use).

i think ungating dislyoal babysitter would be enough. a lot of people don't know how to crumb or interpret crumbs - even if both babysitters get killed, i think town would still at most one result (with potential to be doubted in the event of a roleblocker, ascetic, etc.) out of it. i don't think follow the cop is something to worry about since rolecop isn't a thorough source of info and jailer will probably be healing it.

i agree that messing with existing PRs is better than adding - usually you want at least 5 VTs, 6 is even better

in sum: i'd be cool with odd-night loyal babysitter, disloyal babysitter, rolecop + 1shot vig, jailer (with or without follower) vs. 1-shot encryptor, informed, goon
In post 16, Mewtaph wrote:I would also be fine with adjusting the power of the N2 information if necessary. Right now I'm on the plan that they will receive the first post in the spoiler which provides a fair bit on setup information.

Removing the strongman can be considered done and I'll also adjust the encryptor wording; will come up with a revised role PM there.
looking at that inform, i would say it's very negligible how much of an effect it would have, especially since it doesn't suggest the absence of anything and there's no way to eliminate roles from the list. can you think of how it would affect behavior? most people barely play around power roles at all in normals, let alone respond differently to a potential neapolitan compared to a cop or a gunsmith, etc. also paranoid gun owner is not normal at present. i would recommend making the pool of roles smaller (e.g. 3 out of 5, maybe 2 out of 3) or just saying a certain role exists (loyal babysitter might be fun to inform about so that scum can look for crumbs)
In post 17, Mewtaph wrote:I see what's happening with the tabs. They should flow fine in role PM space vs thread it definitely looks pretty janky in thread. Should be fine I think unless the role PM space gets smaller on some mobile devices (someone alert me if they do).
the horizontal space always varies computer computer (it's based on monitor resolution) so yeah it will look inconsistent on more than just mobile devices

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:28 pm
by Mewtaph
On the N2 information:

First off, good catch on PGO being non-normal. Oops.

I can see how it is actually pretty weak but I wanted to low ball scum's power. Admittedly it may be frustrating to receive a massive list that they can't cross out in a meaningful way. I have no idea how mafia would interpret the information, but because the information is non-specific, I'm thinking that 2 in 3 is a decent place to be at. The most useful thing that the mafia could be informed about is the existence of the babysitter role, then after that I don't have a major preference as to what the other one is out of {Rolecop, Jailkeeper, Vigilante} then some other placeholder role (this approach makes the information weaker overall). Receiving information like "There is a loyal babysitter in the game." is another good approach that I don't mind, and is slightly stronger information.

I'm fine with the information being that "there is a loyal babysitter in the game."

For the role PMs, I will fix the Town 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop and Town Jailkeeper tabs. I'm also fine with removing the 1-Shot Follower from the Town Jailkeeper.

Current setup update:
Spoiler:
Disloyal Babysitter
Odd-Night Loyal Babysitter
1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop
Jailkeeper
VT 6x

N2 Informed Goon (undecided)
1-Shot Encryptor
Goon

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:30 pm
by Mewtaph
A couple more updated role PMs.

Spoiler: Disloyal Babysitter (previously Even-Night Disloyal Babysitter)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Disloyal Babysitter
.

Abilities:

You may target a player each night to protect them. However, if you are killed that night, both you and your target will die.
This action will only succeed when targeting a player of a different alignment. You will not be notified if your action has failed or succeeded.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Spoiler: Jailkeeper (previously 1-Shot Follower Jailkeeper + fixed role PM formatting)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
Jailkeeper
.

Abilities:

You may target a player each night to attempt to jailkeep them.
This will simultaneously roleblock and protect your target from all night kills during the night.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.

Spoiler: 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop (fixed role PM formatting)
Mini Normal 2051: Winter's SacrificeWelcome, playername. You are a
1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop
.

Abilities:

Once in the game, you may target a player to attempt to kill them.
You may target a player each night to learn their role. There is no indication of the target's alignment.
If a Mafia Goon or Vanilla Townie is investigated, they return "Vanilla".
You cannot use both of your actions in a single night phase.

Win condition:

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this with your role name and alignment.


Spoiler: Night 2 Information
Night 2 Information Received
Image

There is a loyal babysitter in this game.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:42 pm
by schadd_
In post 20, Mewtaph wrote:I can see how it is actually pretty weak but I wanted to low ball scum's power. Admittedly it may be frustrating to receive a massive list that they can't cross out in a meaningful way. I have no idea how mafia would interpret the information, but because the information is non-specific, I'm thinking that 2 in 3 is a decent place to be at. The most useful thing that the mafia could be informed about is the existence of the babysitter role, then after that I don't have a major preference as to what the other one is out of {Rolecop, Jailkeeper, Vigilante} then some other placeholder role (this approach makes the information weaker overall). Receiving information like "There is a loyal babysitter in the game." is another good approach that I don't mind, and is slightly stronger information.
there's no problem with really any incarnation of this idea - i dont see a vague inform being actively frustrating but it would just be weak (not really an issue, i think it's within reasonable balance bounds regardless. i use informed roles more for fun and stability than for balance)

of those three rolecop seems the most reasonable to play around but there's no reason it ought to be any of those three in particular. i agree that babysitter is useful to know

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:23 pm
by Mewtaph
What are your thoughts on a list similar to this?

Night 2 Information ReceivedOutside of you and your partners, exactly 3 of the following roles existed in some form at the beginning of the game.
  1. Babysitter
  2. Follower
  3. Tracker
  4. Rolecop
  5. Vigilante

Offers the mafia team room to speculate on who the town PRs are but are likely to not get things right before players have made their full claims - they might think the 1-Shot Vigilante Rolecop is only playing like one of the roles for example. If the scum team is accurate in nailing three of the roles in some way eg. specific PR hints, correct thoughts on some roles not fitting in the setup, they gain access to two powerful fake claims that fit the town power structure if they're successfully avoiding the ire of a rolecop check - follower (fits well and can "confirm" babysitter actions), or tracker (could fake results, nothing really screams out to fit well here). Alternatively, they can treat the list as a "do not fake claim as" list, and safely avoid making most conflicting claims with the town PRs except for Jailkeeper.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:39 pm
by schadd_
dandy !
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