13p pre-design courtesy of Bin-Lop A K A BulletNLynchProof

[implosion]

2 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Town Miller Odd Night Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Cop
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town Ascetic 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

Unrelated: I just realised that Jailkeepers do not have a gun

[BNL]

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller 1-shot Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

[BNL]

I'll just let you know how I created this setup:
I like the idea of using a Loyal Neighbouriser as something like a Masoniser, it's even better than the old Weak Neighbouriser
I like the idea of attaching Miller to a town PR
I like the idea of using Loyal Jailkeeper that can protect town only but shouldn't block the town PRs.

Then I realised all these ideas worked well together, so I put them together.
And I thought if this was balanced, and decided that putting the 1-shot BP would make it more balanced.

[BNL]

Eh it's a bit scumsided I think
How about

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Odd Night Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

[mastina]

Eh it's a bit scumsided I think
How about

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Odd Night Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

Yep, that works. Can unpack this if need be, but that setup is definitely balanced and I'm prepared to stand by it being so.

[BNL]

Yeah I’m intersted in why this is balanced

[mastina]

Basically, loyal neighborizer is a cop; odd night gunsmith is a second cop. Town has sufficient investigative power to get a boost, but they're vulnerable--the jailkeeper can save their lives, but causes their investigatives to fail. Because the mafia have almost free reign over who to kill, the strong investigative power is something that they don't have to worry too much about, especially since there's heavy room for the town to assume their role failed for reasons other than hitting scum, and/or for scum to fakeclaim.

If the town roles live for long, they gain an advantage, but this is countered by how if they are taken out early (and there's little preventing this), the scum gain a huge advantage.

So while there's swing based around how long the strong investigatives live, the swing is balanced equally between which directions it can swing. Good townplay will reward the town heavily; good scumplay will reward the scum heavily.

[BNL]

Btw this is something that I found that's similar?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=76330

[BNL]

On second thoughts I am afraid this is may be too townsided, because I feel the loyal neighbouriser recruiting any town PR, even the BP, will create too much synergy

[mastina]

On second thoughts I am afraid this is may be too townsided, because I feel the loyal neighbouriser recruiting any town PR, even the BP, will create too much synergy

I wouldn't remove much from the town. You can probably safely drop the BP (I almost recommended it initially before changing my mind), but I wouldn't recommend heavily nerfing town/buffing scum here.

[BNL]

You can probably safely drop the BP (I almost recommended it initially before changing my mind)

What was your reasoning for dropping the BP, and what made you change your mind?

Although, this would be one of the possible things to drop if I want to balance the setup. The town can, at best, get 3 clears by D3; 5 if both claims are trusted, which quite toes the line. Additionally, if town get lucky they can recruit a BP which stops a kill, and maybe the JK gets to stop a kill as well.

But all these are really only analyzing the best cases, and it probably doesn't play out in practice. But removing the BP does push this in the right direction.

Eh maybe it's slightly townsided but a townsided setup isn't that bad once in a while.

[BNL]

Actually the problem is that the loyal neighbouriser is better than Cop, because the innos can out themselves even if the neighbourisers die without claiming.

How about moving the odd Night from the Gunsmith to the Neighbouriser, so that it becomes:

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller Odd Night Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

I have not mentioned this, but Mafia will be having daytalk because of potential townsideness of the setup, and the Neighbourhood will have daytalk too.

[mastina]

That works just as well to me.
As for the BP, I initially thought it might be a bit much, in part due to the reason you mentioned, of it being cop cleared. I ultimately ruled that it being shot putting the game on evens meant that it wouldn't make much difference; for the town to gain a lynch, TWO kills need to be stopped, and that is something that while possible, is unlikely.

[BNL]

I think I’m still a bit unconvinced on the balance and I want to call in another reviewer

[BNL]

Actually

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller 1-shot Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

Is this setup balanced?

[BNL]

Idk

I think I’m running the risk of too many innos here

[BNL]

I think I want your opinions on the setup in 1 but otherwise I’m thinking about this:

3 Mafia Goon
1 Town Miller Odd Night Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
7 Vanilla Townies

[BNL]

The issue I have with the first setup is that there’s a lot of random swing that can lose the game for town: the gunsmith dying early or the JK blocking the loyal neighbouriser are really bad for the town. On the other hand, I feel like promoting the 1-shot to odd-night is too much a boost to the town.

[BNL]

What do you think about giving scum a Rolecop?

[BNL]

I’ll just say this: I’ve never seen 1.5 cops in an all goon setup.

Rolecop isn’t as powerful as it seems because of tempo loss.

[mastina]

What do you think about giving scum a Rolecop?

Between the kill and the rolecop, that's two methods per night of finding the PRs--in a game where if the town PRs are eliminated early, the scum have a HUGE advantage. I'd avoid an ungated rolecop, but a gated one? Sure. Not quite sure what kind of gate to employ though--probably either odd-night or two-shot (which, given most games don't have the need to hunt for PRs on N5, are functionally almost identical, the difference being whether they get the second investigation on N2 or N3).

[BNL]

How about a Watcher?

[mastina]

How about a Watcher?

That works as an investigative for scum, yes, and also works as a claim they can plausibly realclaim without being instalynched for it, too.

[BNL]

Hi I forgot about this

2 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Watcher
1 Town Miller Odd Night Loyal Neighbouriser
1 Town Gunsmith
1 Town Loyal Jailkeeper
1 Town 1-shot Bulletproof
6 Vanilla Townies

How does this look?

[mastina]

Looks good to me!