Not Known 15's mini normal review circa January 2019

[implosion]

4 Vanilla Townies Group A

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

3 Vanilla Townies Group B

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Town Night 1-2 Disloyal Informed Vigilante

Spoiler:

Town Night 1-2 Disloyal Informed Vigilante)

Abilities:Kill:You may attempt to kill another player.
Modifiers:
Disloyal:Targeting those with the same alignment fails.
Informed:You know that if you target Mafia, your target will die. This information will be redacted upon your flip.
Night 1-2:You can only use your role on Night 1 and Night 2.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Bulletproof Informed Innocent Child

Spoiler:

Town Bulletproof Informed Innocent Child

Role:Innocent Child:You are confirmed to be town.
Modifiers:Bulletproof:You cannot be killed at night.
Informed:You know that Group A and Group B contain 2 Mafia each:
Group A:
Group B:
You know that the Mafia have no Strongman at all.
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

2 Mafia Encryptor Group B

Spoiler:

Mafia Encryptor

Abilities:
Encrypt:As long as you are alive the Mafia have daychat.
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Informed Mafia Group A

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed

Abilities:

Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that [name of Bulletproof Innocent Child] has the following role:

Role:Innocent Child:You are confirmed to be town.
Modifiers:Bulletproof:You cannot be killed at night.
Informed:You know that Group A and Group B contain 2 Mafia each:
Group A:
Group B:
You know that the Mafia have no [INFORMATION REDACTED] at all.
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

(the original has white color)
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Mafia Encryptor Group A

Spoiler:

Mafia Encryptor

Abilities:
Encrypt:As long as you are alive, the Mafia have daychat.
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Welcome to my Mini Normal.

Rules:
1.Follow the Site Rules. This includes not talking about ongoing games.
2.You may have access to private threads (e.g. Mafia factional chat); you can talk about this game there, but you may not quote anything there here. You may not quote any game-related PMs without express permission by your game mod.
3.Play to win this game.
4.Lurking: You will be prodded after 36 hours of no substantial contribution(no prod dodging). After 24 hours of an unanswered prod I will search for a replacement(unless V/LA). Four prods in total, or two prods in one day will result in an instant replacement. ASK FOR REPLACEMENT IN A PM.
5.Vacation/Limited Access: Tell me when you are going to have limited access. If you have limited access, you will still count as having a prod after 3 days, and you will be instantly replaced after 5 days in total.
6.Weekend: For the purposes of prods and nights, Sunday and Saturday count as 12 hours each.
7.CHEATING:Cheating(breaking site rules, posting while dead, quoting Role PM's without explicit permission, encrypting posts without explicit permission, editing/deleting posts without explicit permission) is forbidden. Don't do it.
Setup information:

8.Length of day phases: Day 1: 10 days
Day 2+:7 days
9.Length of nights: 2 days

10. Lynching:A lynch necessiates more than 50% of all possible votes. You may vote for No Lynch. A No Lynch needs 50% of all possible votes.

11:Hammer:As soon as the required number of people for a Lynch or NoLynch is reached, the game descends into Twilight.
12:Twilight:Alive people, including the hammered lynch target, may continue to post until the flip.
13:Flip: After the flip, if there is no one to replace, the game descends into Night.
If there is a replacement, the game will be locked(do not post). The game descends into Night after the lynch.
14:Daychat: No evil faction has daychat unless specified otherwise.
15:Natural Action Resolution applies. Same priority cycles are resolved by making all actions of the same priority fail(e.g.Roleblocker vs Roleblocker, only both roleblocks fail).
16:Color and Vanilla Role PM:

Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive(or nothing can prevent the same).

At least one person recieved this Role PM.

This is my color

#BF8080). Do not use it.
17:Breaking rules can result in any kind of punishment. Do not break the rules.
In addition to what I asked you to provide you in your confirmation elsewhere you must add"People often forget to read the rules".
18:I may add additional rules at my discretion. I will tell everyone via PM if this happens.

[implosion]

Primary: mastina
Secondary: Performer

[mastina]

This seems like a theme game?

[Not Known 15]

You don't think this falls under Normal?

[implosion]

So I'll step in and say:

This game is technically normal; it fits the strict requirements of a normal game.

However, it will not fit the expectations, I suspect, of a good majority of players entering the normal queue.

Having a single nearly all-powerful role like a bulletproof IC that is given a free division of the player list in half goes against the expectation of a "normal game of mafia." If that person shares the information publicly then the game turns into "hunt the two scum from each subgroup" which feels distinctly like a theme mechanic because it becomes the entire focus of the game. If they don't share that information, then the game becomes essentially one person playing solitaire and directing all of the lynches while everyone else is forced to blindly follow (and in fact, this is probably the optimal way to play the role, as it prevents scum from knowing how the groups are laid out and planning nightkills around it).

[mastina]

So I'll step in and say:

This game is technically normal; it fits the strict requirements of a normal game.

However, it will not fit the expectations, I suspect, of a good majority of players entering the normal queue.

Having a single nearly all-powerful role like a bulletproof IC that is given a free division of the player list in half goes against the expectation of a "normal game of mafia." If that person shares the information publicly then the game turns into "hunt the two scum from each subgroup" which feels distinctly like a theme mechanic because it becomes the entire focus of the game. If they don't share that information, then the game becomes essentially one person playing solitaire and directing all of the lynches while everyone else is forced to blindly follow (and in fact, this is probably the optimal way to play the role, as it prevents scum from knowing how the groups are laid out and planning nightkills around it).

^A more wordy way of what I was getting at, basically.

[Not Known 15]

So I'll step in and say:

This game is technically normal; it fits the strict requirements of a normal game.

However, it will not fit the expectations, I suspect, of a good majority of players entering the normal queue.

Having a single nearly all-powerful role like a bulletproof IC that is given a free division of the player list in half goes against the expectation of a "normal game of mafia." If that person shares the information publicly then the game turns into "hunt the two scum from each subgroup" which feels distinctly like a theme mechanic because it becomes the entire focus of the game. If they don't share that information, then the game becomes essentially one person playing solitaire and directing all of the lynches while everyone else is forced to blindly follow (and in fact, this is probably the optimal way to play the role, as it prevents scum from knowing how the groups are laid out and planning nightkills around it).

Fair point. I will think on how to change that.

[Not Known 15]

Alright, so I recycled another idea and removed Bulletproof.

2 Vanilla Townies

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

3 Town Macho Neighbor

Spoiler:

Town Macho Neighbor

Modifiers: Macho: You cannot be protected from kills.
Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Town Informed Night 3+ Vigilante

Spoiler:

Town Informed Night 3+ Vigilante)

Abilities:Kill:You may attempt to kill another player.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that if you target Mafia, your target will die. This information will be redacted upon your flip.
Night 3+:You cannot use your role on Night 1 and Night 2.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1

Informed Macho Innocent Child

Spoiler:

Informed Innocent Child

Ability:Innocent Child:You are confirmed to be town(at the start of the game).
Modifiers:Informed:You know that there are four people aligned with the Mafia, one of them being a traitor. These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Macho:You cannot be protected from death.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Town Macho Neighbor Night 1 Cop

Spoiler:

Town Macho Neighbor Night 1 Cop

Abilities:
Investigate: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to investigate them. You will receive a result of "Town", "Anti-town", or "No Result".
Modifiers: Macho:You cannot be protected from kills.
Night 1:You can only use your role on Night 1.

1 Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2 Babysitter

Spoiler:

Town Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2 Babysitter

Abilities:
Babysit: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to babysit them. They will be protected from a single kill. However, if you are killed, your target will die with you.
Modifiers: Disloyal: Targeting those of the same alignment fails.
Informed: You know that all members of the Neighborhood are Macho.
Macho:You cannot be protected from kills.
Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Ninja: Your visits are hidden.
Night 1-2: You can only use your role on Night 1 and Night 2.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

2 Mafia Encryptor

Spoiler:

Mafia Encryptor

Abilities:
Encrypt:As long as you are alive the Mafia have daychat.
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Informed Mafia

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed

Abilities:

Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that one of [name of Traitor, name of Cop, name of Disloyal Night 1-2 Ninja Babysitter; sorted by playerlist number] is a Cop with a modifier. You know that there is an Informed Macho Innocent Child.
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Mafia Macho Neighbor Traitor

Spoiler:

Mafia Macho Neighbor Traitor

Abilities:
Traitor:You assist the Mafia, who are [name],[name], and [name]. They are informed that a traitor exists in game. By default, they don't know your name. You lose if you are the only member of the Mafia alive.
Modifiers:Macho:You cannot be protected from kills.
Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

[Performer]

1. For the n3+ vig - wouldn't the below be "Disloyal" as a modifier instead of "Informed?"

"Modifiers:Informed:You know that if you target Mafia, your target will die. This information will be redacted upon your flip."

2. I count 6 people in a neighborhood? Interesting.
What is the intent of the Babysitter having the Ninja modifier?

[Not Known 15]

1. For the n3+ vig - wouldn't the below be "Disloyal" as a modifier instead of "Informed?"

"Modifiers:Informed:You know that if you target Mafia, your target will die. This information will be redacted upon your flip."

No, this is very valuable information. It essentially says that no one can protect Mafia or stop a mafia kill or roleblock Town on Night 3+
It is NOT disloyal; if they target town then town can(and will) die, too.

2. I count 6 people in a neighborhood? Interesting.
What is the intent of the Babysitter having the Ninja modifier?

Yes, 6 people... quite a bit!
The Ninja is a red herring.

1 Informed Mafia

I forgot to change the cop to modifier

s

; here is the repaired RolePM.

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed

Abilities:

Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that one of [name of Traitor, name of Cop, name of Disloyal Night 1-2 Ninja Babysitter; sorted by playerlist number] is a Cop with modifiers. You know that there is an Informed Macho Innocent Child.
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

[Not Known 15]

Hm. Do you think this is better or not?

[mastina]

I realize people tend not to consider Neighbors as roles in the design world, but I'm a bit concerned that from the play perspective, the setup only has two VTs?
Yes, there's essentially-vanilla-neighbors, but they aren't actual bona fide VTs.

[Not Known 15]

I realize people tend not to consider Neighbors as roles in the design world, but I'm a bit concerned that from the play perspective, the setup only has two VTs?
Yes, there's essentially-vanilla-neighbors, but they aren't actual bona fide VTs.

Well, the rule is.... minimum of 1 VT in normal games.
This has a pretty low amount of night actions for a Mini Normal, because despite 2 VT's there are no very complicated night actions nor is the game completely dominated by night actions(although it is, due to the number of Mafia, a bit more reliant on Night actions than normal).
We have three possible actions Night 1, and two for the rest of the game, including the Mafia kill.
However, I just noticed a problem with the setup- potentially - the interaction of Macho with Babysitter - (or a Jailkeeper). Erm. So please don't sign it off yet- I need to ask implosion about that.

[Not Known 15]

The problem is: What actually happens if a Jailkeeper or Babysitter visits a player with the Macho modifier?

[implosion]

They wouldn't be protected from kills.

If a jailkeeper targets a macho player, that player will be roleblocked but not protected.
If a babysitter targets a macho player, the macho player will still die if they are killed and will also die if the babysitter is killed.

[Performer]

@NK 15: the setup as of your post 7 , seems good so far. I had nothing else to add....

But based off the newer posts, were you contemplating further altering the setup ?

[Performer]

Another thought - the setup with the 2 vts , 4 neighbors, and IC - makes me think this is focused largely on day play .

[Not Known 15]

But based off the newer posts, were you contemplating further altering the setup ?

Well... no, I think it should be fine.

Another thought - the setup with the 2 vts , 4 neighbors, and IC - makes me think this is focused largely on day play .

Well, dayplay is significant, yes - as it should be always for Normal games. The Nightkill is also important, however.

[Not Known 15]

Are you still thinking about the setup?

[Performer]

Are you still thinking about the setup?

Me - no , I'm fine with it.

mastina, any additional thoughts..?..

[mastina]

I'm still uncomfortable with how there's only two legitimate VTs--even the neighbors aren't just neighbors; they have a modifier which makes them stand out even more than just being a neighbor would. It still feels like a theme more than a normal with that mechanic.

[Not Known 15]

I'm still uncomfortable with how there's only two legitimate VTs--even the neighbors aren't just neighbors; they have a modifier which makes them stand out even more than just being a neighbor would. It still feels like a theme more than a normal with that mechanic.

Would removing the Macho modifier from everyone except the Traitor, the IC and the Babysitter work? The information from the Babysitter would have to be altered to "Two people in the neighborhood have the Macho modifier".

[mastina]

I'm still uncomfortable with how there's only two legitimate VTs--even the neighbors aren't just neighbors; they have a modifier which makes them stand out even more than just being a neighbor would. It still feels like a theme more than a normal with that mechanic.

Would removing the Macho modifier from everyone except the Traitor, the IC and the Babysitter work? The information from the Babysitter would have to be altered to "Two people in the neighborhood have the Macho modifier".

It'd be better, yes.

[Not Known 15]

2 Vanilla Townies

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Abilities:
You have no abilities other than your voice and your vote.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

3 Town Neighbor

Spoiler:

Town Neighbor

Modifiers:Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Town Informed Night 3+ Vigilante

Spoiler:

Town Informed Night 3+ Vigilante)

Abilities:Kill:You may attempt to kill another player.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that if you target Mafia, your target will die. This information will be redacted upon your flip.
Night 3+:You cannot use your role on Night 1 and Night 2.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1

Informed Macho Innocent Child

Spoiler:

Informed Innocent Child

Ability:Innocent Child:You are confirmed to be town(at the start of the game).
Modifiers:Informed:You know that there are four people aligned with the Mafia, one of them being a traitor. These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Macho:You cannot be protected from death.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

1 Town Neighbor Night 1 Cop

Spoiler:

Town Neighbor Night 1 Cop

Abilities:
Investigate: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to investigate them. You will receive a result of "Town", "Anti-town", or "No Result".
Night 1:You can only use your role on Night 1.

1 Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2 Babysitter

Spoiler:

Town Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2 Babysitter

Abilities:
Babysit: Each night phase, you may target one player in the game to babysit them. They will be protected from a single kill. However, if you are killed, your target will die with you.
Modifiers: Disloyal: Targeting those of the same alignment fails.
Informed: You know that two members of the Neighborhood are Macho.
Macho:You cannot be protected from kills.
Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Ninja: Your visits are hidden.
Night 1-2: You can only use your role on Night 1 and Night 2.
Win Conditions:
You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive

(or nothing can prevent the same)

.

2 Mafia Encryptor

Spoiler:

Mafia Encryptor

Abilities:
Encrypt:As long as you are alive the Mafia have daychat.
Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Informed Mafia

Spoiler:

Mafia Informed

Abilities:

Factional Communication: Each night phase, you may talk to your group here [Link].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Modifiers:Informed:You know that one of [name of Traitor, name of Cop, name of Disloyal Night 1-2 Ninja Babysitter; sorted by playerlist number] is a Cop with a modifier. You know that there is an Informed Macho Innocent Child.
These informations will be redacted upon your flip.
Win Conditions:

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

1 Mafia Macho Neighbor Traitor

Spoiler:

Mafia Macho Neighbor Traitor

Abilities:
Traitor:You assist the Mafia, who are [name],[name], and [name]. They are informed that a traitor exists in game. By default, they don't know your name. You lose if you are the only member of the Mafia alive.
Modifiers:Macho:You cannot be protected from kills.
Neighbor:You are part of a Neighborhood:[Link]. You may talk at any time.
Win Conditions:
You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

[implosion]

If this review is done by tomorrow it'll enter signups then; otherwise it'll be next after ChibiBear's pre-designed.