Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[TheBrie]

Dia daoibh.

I think I already hate this game. a whole 21 pages, to read, and I really didn't take much of it in. So, I'll just be here now, and don't expect me to remember everything that happened before I arrived.

And please excuse me for being less than polite when arriving at a dance. Circumstances have irritated me.

So basically, top 4 coin ladies still get to pick their partners. *town does not pick for them*, but *town can by consensus reject a pairing*?

That is, top 4 ladies just have 1 extra step.

1. Dude offers
2. If Lady likes the dude, Lady asks, "who all scumreads this guy?"
3. If it's less than half the town, she accepts. She only rejects if more than half the town rejects the pairing

whereas the other 4 ladies are just like
1. Dude offers
2. Lady decides

something like that?

Seems reasonable, though I'm not sure about forcing the ladies to claim.

I'm just as confused as to why I'm being criticized for assuming RC is town when it should be blatantly obvious he will be the kill if he is town to people who have played with his town game, and that it's kind of really weird to suggest outright skipping the first dance and allowing scum to have their way with whoever they want first thing in the game.

Yeah, no thanks. I'm not following this plan and I'm going to heavily go against it if it gets traction like it has been

I'm not in favour of skipping first dance either.

I’ll explain when I get home

Third time I've seen this, not a fan.

I just get severe FOMO

Vedith is seeming kinda scummy here.

I don't like this because it's a lazy read. I don't like the "seeming kinda" wording to begin with, but aside from that, I think scum reading Vedith is easy but doesn't really make sense if you think about it. I don't think scum shows as much desperation to get a dance as he does. Worst case scenario, scum can buddy and pair up if they have to. Probably not optimal, but their strategy is probably closer to pocketing one person and not really worrying about being the odd man out. The motivation behind that behavior (even joking behavior) comes from town imo

Also, I don't like Allomancer's immediate defensiveness of not justifying his reads and pointing to previous games as "look I'm matching my town meta!" Doesn't seem like a town response

I think Vedith, Gamma, Ankamius, and Alisae are town

Don't like Allomancer, Nancy or Tally tbh

Krazy is mixed but leaning town

Allomancer is a little bit lazy.

Jokes about scumreading the mod are pretty common. I don't see how you think that's a scum move.

Is this the only point I make about you that is worth commenting on?

How about you explain your

Dann/Vedith

read.

Ank, was there any benefit that you saw in claiming coin value in your previous game of this?

Is there benefit in not claiming coin value?

I'm worried that scum would want to pocket or buddy high-value lady's.

Legitimate risk. Pros and cons to either side. Depends on how persuasive the scum are, and how good town are at reading.

[TheBrie]

I agree that high coin ladies should claim since I did it last game

But I vehemently deny that skipping first dance is a good idea in any stretch

This is fair, the question then simply is how long do we want dance 1 to be, because that is tied to how risky dance 1 is for town in my mind. Like we could treat Dance 1 like a Blitz Phase and just give it like 12 hours and then resolve it one way or the other before all of the town goes to sleep. idk we can keep talking about it

-- and I'm sorry to everyone for focusing on mechanics so much this early but it does really matter to me in terms of how we approach the pre-dance

Could be a good idea. But short deadlines can be annoying because I'll likely be asleep for half of it.

Are you all forgetting that RC is in this game and that scum would take an opportunity to remove him ASAP if they could?

So I should take a little time to explain why this is not a huge concern to me so you know where I'm coming from.

I have, personally, had a wildly ranging mix of experiences with RC. My first game with him was a disaster. My first game as scum against him, keeping him alive was basically my only wincon. My second game as town with him was simply frustrating because everyone started sheeping his reads after he died and I didn't feel like the game was being played anymore so I replaced out.

After that, I played with him on a hidden alt and had two very positive experiences with him, one where we solved the game together, and another where he failed to catch me as scum. On the whole, I know that I can have a good time with RC, although when we have played on my main, things have tended to be pretty rocky. I don't know if that's just bad hangovers from my first game or what.

So I am aware RC can have very strong, good games. But in my personal experience over the last year, his reads have been good but I don't see the need to freak out over his slot in particular. He's a strong, competent player, but not necessarily the one I would say is easiest to townread or the slot that I would assume would be the nightkill, given that when I was scum against him, I never tried to nightkill him and never really considered it. He can have really good games or really bad games just like anyone else. I like the energy he brings to the table and I'd like us to be friends even though we've had some rough experiences in the past and I might have shittalked him pretty badly one game shortly after that first disastrous game.

Also, as an aside, I don't think it's healthy to make a weird meta for RC before he even enters the game and I don't really want to discuss him more before he has a chance to post.

Good points. I think my first game with RC (or second) we both replaced in to a newbie game towards the end and managed to trust each other enough to win. Second game, he wa scum, I was pocketed (And he could probably do it again with me). Third game we were the scum team. So I say he's not always easy to read, and more of a danger to town as scum that he is to scum as town. Maybe. But nuff said about him.

[TheBrie]

I'm assuming people are going to hate me if we try to organize dance pairings so I was planning on, like, not doing that

I won't hate you for suggesting it. How would you go about doing such a thing.

This game feels so surreal

I've never read a game before where my town reputation preceded me and no one talked about my scum game lol

I said a thing.

....I say he's not always easy to read, and more of a danger to town as scum that he is to scum as town. Maybe. But nuff said about him.

k well RC

here's the tl;dr

confrontation starts here

1. nd39 scumhunts less in these two games than every other game I've ever seen her
2. her fluff this game is jagged and doesn't have a cohesive thought process before she started getting scumreads
3. the way she responds to me calling her out is indicative of her having ulterior motives in both cases

and the reason I jumped to wolf over correct town with you is because I expected scum-you to shield her when you came in

any questions

There is some similarity in Nancy's play. I'd have to look at a town game too though to be sure. I do know this isn't the only game where Nancy has threatened to replace out over conflict with other players, but I can't even speculate about where it's AI.

I like these recent posts of Ankamius. They feel towny.

Also Gamma Emerald sounds town in tone.


And there's no jesters. Don't joke about such things.

[TheBrie]

HURT: Firebringer is this a thing

Is that for accepting vedith's invitation before claiming her coins?

[TheBrie]

just a peek-in post

My biggest fear about waiting until the end of Pre-Dance to get pairs going is that it makes interactions and pairings seem more mechanical, and conversely, more able to be manipulated.

I'm selective of who I want to pair with, and I have just as few options to mirror that.

Question to ANYONE who'd rather wait more for pairings:

if we're not going through a defined plan for First Dance or coin usage or how we lynch, then what is the benefit of waiting to create pairs?

Creating a townbloc feels like messy NK bait, so the only positive I'm seeing to using up our 6 days, is so everyone can have a fair chance to read the game and make up their mind.

But I'm more inclined to think that waiting is only going to muddy the waters more for people who feel confident or clear in their view of the game.

Very good points

It is a lot easier to make sure we can set ourselves up to properly make it through intermission with the highest information per slot ratio when we don't lolpartner in the first 12 hours

Also good. Partner carefully.

I'm still not taking in the game very well, but I've got basic reads.


Nothings changed since my Gamma tone/style town read, Pinkball, not getting any scummy vibes there
Ank, Taly, Dann, seem kinda town.
Leaning town on Krazy, but not so strongly
Firebringer vs. Nancy gives me a headache, which gets worse when I throw Vedith in. It looks like Vedith and Firebringier both scumread the other. Leaning more towards Vedith being town if one of them is scum
I was leaning scum on Allo,and I can see the arguments, but his recent posts are better.

DoutingThomas haven't seen enough of, RC has been NAI to me.

DR WORM is just too hard, but def not aggressive like KAIN TEPES.

And everyone else hasn't done things I remember.

[TheBrie]

thebrie, where is your avatar from

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oXOZkvw4jU

allomancer, moment (because I am lazy), and TheBrie.

THE SCUM TEAM OF GLORY

Why am I scum?

also feel like I'm taking crazy pills when ppl like Brie saying Allo's recent posting is better because I feel like it's getting worse

maybe I'm conf biasing

Slightly better. A few of these seemed like good game engagement, though they are still a bit superficial.

As for my read on worm: the weird posting style is antitown but not scum. However, we have repeatedly told him this and he refuses to change it, just stating "I'm trying to get better" without changing anything. It's gotten to the point where it feels contrived rather than stylistic. What does town have to gain from that? Okay, maybe I'm wrong, maybe he is just a troll, but then he just deserves to be taught the lesson that actions have consequences, and a lynch is the best way to do that.

See, that makes sense.

What strategy are people ignoring? Everyone is giving reads and updating them as the game continues, and only ONE match has been made yet. So I don't see a cause for concern right now.

yes, but plenty of other people have been asking ladies to dance or are already planning who they want to pair with

His response is true, though there's the counter point that we really should be planning now even if we're not pairing.

Nancy says I am scum but I am also going to cost us the game supposedly because I am town unless she thinks I am scum going to cost town the game which doesn't make sense. Could the read on me be anymore whatever mood fits her at anytime? Not sure.

Don't worry you're town. You'll still cost us the game, but you're town.

And that last one is terrible again. So he's mostly not better. i wouldn't say worse, but overall, not much better. Let's leave him out.


There's basically two reasons I could be waffling. I honestly haven't got things figured out, or I know everything, and I'm dishonestly trying to have other thing figured out.

[TheBrie]

who are the woman that I have to seduce so I can ask to dance w

I might have been willing until you mentioned seduction. That scares me and makes me run away.

Honestly though, do stuff that lets me read you, and I'll see later on.

[TheBrie]

Could you not spam the thread
FOR FIVE MINUTES?

scummy

Nah. It's a genuine problem. People keep saying so much trivial stuff that it makes it so hard to keep up with what's actually going on. This actually reminds me of why I don't like most parties.

[TheBrie]

who are the woman that I have to seduce so I can ask to dance w

I might have been willing until you mentioned seduction. That scares me and makes me run away.

Honestly though, do stuff that lets me read you, and I'll see later on.

i am an open book

approach me and i will open up

What do you think of Nancy and Firebringer?
Also Vedith and Firebringer?

Do you have any opinions on whether people shoulder pair sooner or later, or is this your first game of his type, and you're totally lost.


*Waves to RC*

[TheBrie]

I just want to go with someone I have a chance of reading so i can figure out whether or not I should leave with them. Also not someone who scum reads me and just wants to get me out of the game, because that would be a waste. So DRWORM and RC are out. One would drive me mad, the other would make me drive myself mad with wondering if I was being hoodwinked.

What I've seen from PvUrist doesn't seem bad, but not got a strong read.

[TheBrie]

well why not?

I've gone over this -- I don't think the hierarchy of top consensus top pairings should be decided pre-dance, so anyone I'm not dancing with outside the bottom 3 pairings is kinda irrelevant to me unless I have a reason to change my read

What? I hope it doesn't sound stupid to admit I don't understand you at all. What do you mean by "top consensus top pairings"? And why are the bottom pairings more relevant?

[TheBrie]

I just want to go with someone I have a chance of reading so i can figure out whether or not I should leave with them.

this is NOT how you should be approaching the game.

Probably not, but I've not got a good strategy for how this game works (strategy, what's that?), I don't have a heap of time to put in, and I'm currently too tired to care much. And annoyed at myself for joining another game with all the work I ought to be doing.

[TheBrie]

What? I hope it doesn't sound stupid to admit I don't understand you at all. What do you mean by "top consensus top pairings"? And why are the bottom pairings more relevant?

Because that makes it clearer who the top townread pair is for scum which increases their win EV. The bottom pairings are more relevant because those are the pairings that will be under consideration in dance 1 when we will have significantly less information and also less time (if we go with anything resembling my plan).

Top townread read then. Not top coins or something. You instead want to know the least townread?

[TheBrie]

don’t strategize just play it like its nightless

The only completely nightless game I played was a blitz (lovers mafia) and I was scum. And I do want to pair with town, but I just want to sleep now.

I don't scum read Ank.

[TheBrie]

rc seems kinda scummy.

In what way?

[TheBrie]

rc seems kinda scummy.

In what way?

in the not-towny kinda way

I mean why do you think he's scum? Where do you get that read from?

[TheBrie]

He fits the bill of probably won't be widely town read (at least I don't really town read him) but has a chance of maybe getting a long with Nancy

Pvt is probably preferred here though. I think the pairs should probably prioritize how well they'll work together so that's up to Nancy probably to decide

playstyle that was more common back in 2012 when you joined

best way I can describe it is that old school is more each post is a high school essay while most posts nowadays are twitter posts

lmao yea ok I get what you mean

I played a bit back then and then only came back recently, so I haven't quite adjusted, and probably won't ever fully because I like being more transparent in my thought processes than the twitter post style allows

I've only been around two years (less of late), and I prefer the longer posts sometimes too. Not huge walls, but Twitter length posts can have less sense than I typically see on twitter, and then there's so many to deal with.

What's really annoying is I can't even talk about how annoyed I am about not being able to talk about the game I want to talk about with Dann because talking about how annoyed that makes me would out the game in question.

So I kinda just have to shove all that back with a pole and say, "Okay, yeah, I have yet to find a good reason to scumread Dann here"

He's in my upper bracket until he has a reason not to be in my upper bracket

Good enough for me. I've not played with town!Dann before, so I've not got a good reference, but he's a player I like so I want him as town.

I think trying to talk people into that might be informative but part of me thinks it would be a hard sell

Like which ladies would you want to sit out? Pink Ball would just dance with Worm to spite you and I wouldn't want you one of the two ladies sitting out anyway

So what you'd be left with... TheBrie? And I don't know she'd be on board either tbh

I might be onboard if enough people think it's a good idea. I'm not convinced of Vedith being scum, but I'll believe those who say he can't be relied on to use his lynch power well. I'm glad I don't have anything like that.

[TheBrie]

Good enough for me. I've not played with town!Dann before, so I've not got a good reference, but

he's a player I like so I want him as town.

This is the issue I'm feeling. I don't have strong indications of scum!Dann (at-least, not things that I can place into words reliably) but I'm feeling that more than 1 player here is viewing the handsome rogue through rose tinted glasses.

Dann's been pretty charismatic, and I do like his personality. As redundant as this might be, likability=/=alignment, and at the very least I'd prefer if people didn't conf-town Dann and completely place him out of the equation yet.

I won't. And that said, it might be best I don't partner with him (not that he's asked). I'm more likely to conf-bias in that case. Half the town read is coming through trusting Krazy which might be a stupid thing to do. But I've not got a reason to scum read him, and if his only completed scumgame is years back, meta won't help much.

Do be choosy, Gamma.

[TheBrie]

I think I've mentioned about a half dozen times that I don't have confident reads and I probably won't until I get to analyze the thread more closely this weekend

scums are afraid to admit this and publicly announce it

Yet when I admit to it, people scumread me for fence sitting. I call admitting lack of good reads NAI.

I said she should be.

She’s got 6 coins, why shouldn’t she be choosy?

I might be onboard if enough people think it's a good idea. I'm not convinced of Vedith being scum, but I'll believe those who say he can't be relied on to use his lynch power well. I'm glad I don't have anything like that.

Given that one gentlemen is leaving the dance already, do you have a preference for who should be excluded from the dance in pre-dance, and is there a second gentlemen that you scumread strongly enough that you would refrain from joining the dance to ensure his exclusion?

Not yet. It's more that I've barely got time to play, and if I could be persuaded that me not joining would benefit town, I'd probably do it. But I don't have strong reads.
The more I think about it, the less I can see it being a good idea. I'm not all that worried about Vedith, and don't undertand the mechanics well enough to see why it would help anyway. Wouldn't he end up with a larger proportion of the votes with less couples?
Also I believe Ank is still intending to refuse all invitations, so there'll be two gentlemen excluded already.

IC Worm would probably drive me insane.

[TheBrie]

DT,

can you expand on townread for DT?

I don't actually want to keep harping on this but I feel like every time I have asked it's a) "gut" or b) no response whatsoever

I've got a town lean on DT, just because nothing is pinging me as scummy.

I'm coming around to Dr Worm town btw

I think the only thing you could potentially scum read him for is (maybe?) trying to antagonize Nancy, but I think he's moved on from purposefully doing that. I agree with Krazy that his line of thinking regarding the IC and making it to the 2nd dance is towny. Additionally, the scum reads against him feel automatic and lazy which makes me think he's mislynch material

You actually got a line of thinking from the Worm!?!

[TheBrie]

Allomancer is a little bit lazy.

I feel like with TheBrie I just still have questions, like -- what did this have to do with the quoted material in that long post

Dann said Allo's read on Vedith was lazy. A lot of Allo's reads have been like that. "So-and-so seems kinda scummy," but no reason.

Could be a good idea. But short deadlines can be annoying because I'll likely be asleep for half of it.

While this is probably true I kinda just didn't like it as a potential setup to lurk in second dance if she's still alive

so I think with TheBrie I mostly just didn't have a great first impression

I have no intention of lurking more than I can help, it's just that I'm in a different timezone to the majority of people, and with this game a lot can be said in that time, and I'm a little annoyed by it. Felling a little less lousy today, and I'm going to say do it how you think it works. I might have work that day though, and be incapable of being present at all, but I'm not sure. Cause 14th would the the 15th for me, and that should be clear.

I might be onboard if enough people think it's a good idea. I'm not convinced of Vedith being scum, but I'll believe those who say he can't be relied on to use his lynch power well. I'm glad I don't have anything like that.

I guess later on I still feel like she isn't really processing posts, given she was kinda agreeing with this but wasn't really thinking about *who* she would sacrifice herself to exclude. This was more a "oh I'm being kinda scumread by people, guess I could just die" response which... idk how I feel about

so yeah nothing here makes me go "zomb lockscum" but I do seem to have a shortage of reasons to townread brie at this point outside of some wifomy stuff

I don't necessarily dislike any of the positions she's taking though? So I'm not trying to demoralize her and I hope she gets into the game a bit more

I was coming more from, "I'm struggling with this game, and if dying would help, I don't care that much about living." But I don't think dying at that point would help.

And thanks. I'll do my best. But I don't see myself having time for posting more than a couple times a day.

[TheBrie]

I don't think I get paranoia lynched

I do think I potentially have my partner walk out on me

I think that I'm objectively a Towny player as town and wasting the +equity that gives because I have a good scum game that people may end up scared of is the worse play if I play this setup 50 times In a row in terms of average winrate

What?

WHY do THINK RC-NANCERY is good PARTNERSHIP if NANCERY has never played with SCUMRADIENTCOWBALLS?!?!

question for ANYBIDY!!

Presumably, RC believes that Nancy's going to townread him.

For other people, it's just a question of whether they think they can read BOTH RC and Nancy. I'm sure there are people here who can.

I've played with both, but I've never seen through RC's scum game,and haven't finished a game with Nancy.

accept RC

Well that was a surprise. Not so much the acceptance, but the asking. Need to think it over more, but after reading the rest, I'm inclined to think they're both town.

[TheBrie]

I'm going to be flipped super soon so we can treat me like an IC this game

I'd like to have veto over certain pairings: I'll use it sparingly but I want to end up with a few pairings I'm happy with

Who should I be or not be paired with?

Dann/Taly is a locktown pairing I think
We just need to decide on one more

Could be good, but I'm a little paranoid of both of them, and don't know how either of them are at reading.

Dann seems set on PB, so it’s currently not looking great for rn.

I think you and I would make a good pairing sorting wise and I'm not dead set if the rest of the game thinks it's best me and PB go elsewhere. Kinda waiting for RC to get a read on PB

I'd be happier with Dann/Nancy, than Dann/Taly.

Honestly, I think Dr Worm is town. It just depends on who is willing to be in a PT with him

I think I agree (despite paranoia). Not sure I could stand being in a PT with him.

I’m upset because I think they’re going to take each other out in 1st Dance, where as had they partnered with others, they’d have to convince others, so that would have been a lot less likely to happen, so I think we’re losing likely two top towns, right off the bat, so I don’t understand why people are telling me not to feel pessimistic about that.

I think this whole fiasco has eased their paranoia, which makes it less likely for a yolo bombing to occur. If they're able to work together in the PT, the pairing could turn really good

Does anyone object to me asking Nancy to the dance? soon™

I approve of you asking.

I accept Dr. Worm's invitation

He asked did he? I suppose this is good. I was half thinking I ought to offer to go myself.

[TheBrie]

I'm not getting a good handle on the gentlemen. Of the unpaired, Allo and Urist get on my nerves, and make me inclined to scum read them, but of the two of them I think I could get on better with Allo. Yet Urist is giving more reads, and the fact that the don't fit with the popular opinions, make me think that perhaps i should be townreading him for them.

DoubtingThomas is null now. He's not said enough, and the doubt others have had about him, have begun to creep into me.

Moment I like, and have a gut town read on, but because I like him, I might end up conf-biasing him as town. But since half(ish) of the people scum read me anyway, and others could probably sort him, I don't think I need to worry if he turns out to be scum. More risk that never of us have enough town cred and get mislynched.

Krazy I think is town, but he should go with someone else. I still like the Taly pairing.

Do we want the 8 coin lady to claim? And possibly the five coin? How people deal with it would show some things. Yet maybe it's best if scum gentlemen don't have the information.

[TheBrie]

Vedith - Firebringer are 8 coin pair

I meant 7 coins then. Whatever the top coins were. I'd not have chosen for 7 coins to go to Krazy. I don't trust Krazy (mostly due to not knowing and thus not knowing how to read, and being influenced by what ank has said,)

RC

, are you going to follow-up on your opinions with the pairs and reasons of them? Mostly regarding

Dan/Krazy/Nancy/I

?

I don't know if

Krazy+Nancy

would work out if you're still thinking

Dann+Me

is most optimal.

TheBrie

, who do you want to pair with? And why is

Krazy+Me

better than

Dann+Taly

or that

Dann+Nancy

is good?

You townread

GE

? What do you think is a good pair for them?

I wanted Dann + Nancy because I trust them to read each other. And that's probably half because I've played with Nancy more recently with you. And I think you'll do well with Krazy. As you said when you accepted, you're not going to auto lock town him.

[TheBrie]

Doing catchup up haven't read past #3062. Breaking my rely up into pieces. This is piece two.

I don't see a scenario where scum would *want* a scum/scum pairing unless they were forced into it.

Truth. The chance of two scum being so highly town read that they could survive together is unlikely. Especially as scum will kill one of the top town couples, and likely IC someone in the other. They can't do either if a top town couple is actually both scum.

I have nothing to say to her. Only you, Ank, and fb are townreads.

Brie, PB, and GE are null-reads;

i wasn't really sure about the order.

Okay looks like people are pairing. I better hurry up. I know Taly won't pair with me, so

I'm going with my second highest townread unpaired lady

.

TheBrie, dance with me?

Brie, you can do better. This is desperate.

It is desperate. It also reads as fairly genuine. I'm not sure if he'd act that brazenly and obviously desperate as scum.

The bold was broken, so I wouldn't have noticed him asking if no one had commented. I'm not going. I feel like Allo or I would end up leaving. I couldn't trust him, and I feel as if he might be townreading me as a pocketing attempt. Just cause I'm surprised to be someone's second highest town lady. though he said unpaired, so I suppose it's reasonable. And it does feel like being desperate to dance with someone.

Allo, if you really want to dance with me, you'll have to talk to me first. Give me flowers, or explain why you town and scum read certain people. And be more careful when referring to players.

[TheBrie]

Last post before I read the moist recent ones.

I want Gamma paired and I have no idea which gent would work for her given she's clearly been struggling to keep up/engage with the game. I'm not sure if that means we should pair her with someone quiet who is also working on catchups like moment, or someone that might help her keep track of what's going on... like... idk Pvt?

My tonal townreads on Gamma can be wrong though, but I'm still feeling pretty decent about her this game albeit off a low sample size of posts.

I don't know if I've played with Scum Gamma, but as town, she can be a bit scummy. I've seen her as the victim of a town driven misslynch.

Taly is actually a hydra of RC and Ankamius

true story

Well that explains everything.

I expect the scumteam to have me as null in this game, specially after pairing with dr worm who, despite being townread now, it's easy to "change their mind" about him and mislynch us. Guess what fuckos: not gonna happen

Yea I'm going to be defending this pair. Extremely wary of people's scum reads on Dr Worm and the quality of those reads

Keep an eye on how people treat Moment and TheBrie too. I'd bet money on both of them being town.

I can maybe see Brie but why Moment? I’m still null on her.

don't think anything I can say on that will matter

I doubt moment is making it very far regardless

Whatever my read on Moment, she doesn’t strike me as a yololyncher but ideally I’l like 8 couples in the first dance, due to the coin mechanic.

I've never really seen a good scum read articulated on Moment. It's mostly been admitted be correlated with low posting.

[TheBrie]

you were only top town read at the beginning before most people had posted. As people townier than you started posting, you moved town.

Why would this make someone null rather than town, just normal town as others?
You get 3

because he was only town with regards to being townier than the others. It was actually null, but placed in perspective, I made him town to distinguish.

Null means you could easy flip either wy, or aren't reading the player much in either direction. How can someone be null, and townier simultaneously.?

If Allo flips scum, the simplest way to explain his flubbing is to say that he initially put his buddy Dannflor as town and then his team later decided that Allo should distance from Dann, and he did so very awkwardly.

I'm actually calling you out SS, that by saying that seems like you're planning a push on obvious town pair Nancy/Dann in case your scumpartner Allo flips

And Pinkball says what I wanted to say. Which put Pinkball as town for me. Cause there's no way in anything she's scum with SS and Allo if they're scum.

Oh right Pvt isn't paired yet

Tricky questions

who is more town out of moment and Pvt

who is more town out of gamma and brie

I don't know which is more town, but I think I'd be better with Moment.

So my final suggestion is:
PvtUrist/Gamma
Moment/TheBrie
DoubtingThomas/SS
Allonely, I'm so lonely (8)

in favour, though it's up to the gentlemen to ask, and us ladies to accept. I think Gamma would accept. What SS has said here, points away from Allo and SS both as scum. Because SS would have to choice between beign paired with her partner, or leaving him out, and she shows no worry.

Errrr why would Dann being town make Allo town? That correlation sounds more wacky

Mmm. Want that answer.

[TheBrie]

I've never really seen a good scum read articulated on Moment. It's mostly been admitted be correlated with low posting.

I also trust

TheBrie+Moment

more because of this statement - this seems like a genuine attempt at reading

Moment

despite what people generally state.

TheBrie

, to be concise - thoughts on

Allo

,

PvtUrist

and

Moment

?

Allo keeps saying things that feel weird, and being inconsistent.
Pvt hasn't factored on my radar, but I've noticed he's not afraid to go against the flow with his reads.
Moment's posts so far aren't bad, and haven't pinged me though it would be nice if he could be a little more active. i'd prefer to see a reads list before partnering with, or an attempt at one. I'd probably fail badly at making a comprehensive list right now.

As to DT, Nothing pinged me as scummy, but he's not been around enough lately to impress himself as town either.

[TheBrie]

And Pinkball says what I wanted to say. Which put Pinkball as town for me. Cause there's no way in anything she's scum with SS and Allo if they're scum.

If Allo and I both flip scum then I could understand you townreading Pink for that interaction. But if I'm not mistaken, it sounds like you're calling him unconditionally town based off of it...?

Point. Thanks for calling me out of that. Town read is half from that mechanical aspect which I'm now doubting. The other half was from the mindmelding. What someone says exactly what you were thinking, you don't want to think they could be scum.

The bold was broken, so I wouldn't have noticed him asking if no one had commented. I'm not going. I feel like Allo or I would end up leaving. I couldn't trust him, and I feel as if he might be townreading me as a pocketing attempt. Just cause I'm surprised to be someone's second highest town lady. though he said unpaired, so I suppose it's reasonable. And it does feel like being desperate to dance with someone.

Allo, if you really want to dance with me, you'll have to talk to me first. Give me flowers, or explain why you town and scum read certain people. And be more careful when referring to players.

Ok, so, Brie, how are you today? I'm kind of offended, to be honest. To think I would walk out on a lady? Nonsense! Seriously, though if I were scum who was trying to pocket you, why would I walk out on you? One scum life is more valuable than a town life; it wouldn't be worth it for a scum to die just to take out a townie, unless it was a very powerful townie, which, given your post count, I assume you aren't.

Anyway, not to be rude, but Taly and the three paired ladies are all higher on my townlist then you. You're null-town at the moment.

Spoiler: Also these are for you

I'll explain further. I think I'd most likely being the one walking out, because I think other people could talk me into it with you, and I really don't have a strong town read on you. But a paranoid little bit of me thinks maybe you're town who secretly thinks I might be scum, and will end up walking out on me. Which is stupid, and you should be offended. But still, I think there's a chance of us both being town and ending up scum reading the other and leaving. So really I just want to interact a bit more so that I think I understand you better, and that's less likely to happen.

Back at the beginning you though Vedith was scum. Do you still, and why do you have the read you do?
Aslo, thoughts on Krazy. Dis you think Taly should have paired with him?

Thanks for the flowers. They're lovely.

[TheBrie]

wheres thebrie

I'm trying to actually live life as well as playing this game.


Looking at DT's ISO, I'm not particularly impressed. I can't follow him. I know the reason for three of his reads. Taly, Krazy, Moment. I just see lots of words, and questions, and not much reasoning. And I like reasoning. So Thomas, do you mind telling why you think Vedith is town? He's a player I'm having trouble getting even a gut read on.

Looking at Moment, I think he's honestly getting snowed under by the number of posts. I like his posts style. Neat, tidy, points seem logical to me. But I've got him closer to null now. The content isn't inherently towny, though I don't feel an agenda in it.

Moment, Why the scum reads on Gamma and PinkBall?

[TheBrie]

I'll explain further. I think I'd most likely being the one walking out, because I think other people could talk me into it with you, and I really don't have a strong town read on you. But a paranoid little bit of me thinks maybe you're town who secretly thinks I might be scum, and will end up walking out on me. Which is stupid, and you should be offended. But still, I think there's a chance of us both being town and ending up scum reading the other and leaving. So really I just want to interact a bit more so that I think I understand you better, and that's less likely to happen.

Back at the beginning you though Vedith was scum. Do you still, and why do you have the read you do?
Aslo, thoughts on Krazy. Dis you think Taly should have paired with him?

Thanks for the flowers. They're lovely.

For the record, I don't think you're likely to be scum, and your most recent posts have made you seem townier. Vedith I originally scumread because he was putting effort into posting without really contributing to the game. He's gotten better, but his posts still seem frivolous, and his original unwillingness to share his reads still bothers me.
Krazy is null, maybe null-town at best. However, I support his pairing with Taly. I like strong town pairing with null reads because it means we are less likely to lose two strong town at intermission. Additionally, Taly seems like the best player in the game in terms of social analysis, and Krazy is the best at setup strategy, so I think they could work well together.

And of course, you are welcome for the flowers.

Like.
You aren't worried about Krazy having 8 (or 7, can't remember) coins to vote with?
You explained early on why no lynching D1 isn't optimal. Do you mind saying what you want to do?

[TheBrie]

Also, I no longer think Nancy is scum.

Why?

[TheBrie]

Pvt, what's your thoughts on Gamma, and going with her?

[TheBrie]

Town reading Dann because he agreed with you there is not a good reason.

[TheBrie]

I'm kinda thinking I want to pair with Thomas. Everyone else is too towny.

Too towny, because you think you're going to get lynched? Do you think Thomas is scum then? Why wouldn't you leave him without a partner if he's scum?

[TheBrie]

RC, what's wolfy about Pvt?
And why the Gamma scum read?

[TheBrie]

RC, what's wolfy about Pvt?
And why the Gamma scum read?

dunno just don't like pvturist

i haven't closeread him because i was happy to leave him as scum maybe i can give more detail

same essentially goes with gamma, i looked at his iso nothing was towny had moderate bad feels he can be poescum

i'm hyperscrutinizing my townreads and not my scumreads this game because the setup is what it is

Makes sense. Do look at him though. I didn't like him to start with, but I'm now coming around to him maybe being town.

Gamma can be scummy as town.

If you think they're both scum, how about them pairing up?

[TheBrie]

DoubtingThomas and Pvturist haven't asked me though, and Moment and Allo have. Still stuck between them. So if people want to be helpful, they can tell me why I should go with one of the other, or why I should hold out for another invitation.

Good night.

[TheBrie]

It seems so strange to me looking at brie posts and seeing that she is concerned about who gets coins (specifically krazy) but isn't concerned of definitely sorting me/vedith when that has the 8 coins. Wouldn't that be a concern for her?

Or is it not a real concern because it doesn't even seem like a genuine concern.

I've kind of put you in the two hard basket. I struggle to sort everyone in larger games, and you were paired up before I could do anything. Pretty sure I have been asking about Vedith and I know I had some reason to read you as town way back. Vedith's posts of late have been popping in to say nothing, and that does worry me a bit. But you wouldn't both be scum, so I'm hoping this isn't a case of town!you misreading him and giving your coins to scum.

[TheBrie]

I mean I got my reads because I read people and thought they were town or scum lol

explain which reads i should explain/ a lot of it is just pure tone/gut/vibe because unfortunately i havent put in too much time into this game

i know what a shame having a life

Mmm, having a life is terrible. (not)
I go off gut reads myself, probably too much with some of these players, but usually I can at least explain some of the feeling.

[TheBrie]

Allomancer brie is fine with me

Because you think we're both scum?

[TheBrie]

Well it would be stupid for us to go together if we're both scum. And apology accepted.

[TheBrie]

Allo, why should I go with you over Moment?

[TheBrie]

Had a long days work today. Had to wake up just after 3 AM. So I had to nap before coming on.

The evidence is that she has not yet paired with me. I believe the logical conclusion from that evidence points towards her being town.

Ideally, I would like to pair with Brie, if only because it might stop people from lynching someone whom I believe to be town. Failing that, I think Urist-Brie might be a good pair.

The problem is that I townread both SS and Brie but only one of the three remaining gentlemen besides myself, that being Urist.

Are you then wanting me paired with you, and SS with Urist? (or viceversa). That could work.
But tell me, why do you think Allomancer is scum? I think I could work with him, and if you're town, I don't want to make RC kill you.

[TheBrie]

I don't need to be lock town, RC. But do we really have that many agreed on lock towns?
Since when is SS lock town?


(I hardly believe in lock town being a thing at all.)

[TheBrie]

NO SON OF MINE IS BRINGING AN AUSSIE GIRL HOME MOMENT

this would all really be easier if i didn't actually have the power to lynch thebrie regardless of everyone elses reads on her

brie pls convince me you're town somehow

Somehow. I don't know how.

But the only scum game where I didn't do something stupid (giving reads that make no sense or a super opportunistic) that got me lynched (or nearly so, saved by blitz deadlines), it was because you were my partner and coaching me. So one way to see if I'm scum is to put extreme pressure on me, and see how I react. Except I'm probably too aware now for that to be accurate.

Also, you'll see what happens with my reads once I have flips to anchor them in. I won't be able to shift them as much then, and you'll probably be able to tell better later if I'm fabricating them.

[TheBrie]

ugh now i think that SS could be scum

why is mafia like this

i even acutely know ahead of time that this waffling is going to get wolfread but i can't do anything about it cuz like

fuuck

ss questioned basically every inclusion in the locktown pool (taly, nd, etc) then tried to get him(her?)self hitched with moment

I'll be nice and not wolf read you for that. In recent experience I've seen some of the worst misreads, and it's left be deeply paranoid of my own gut, and kinda appreciative of people who aren't dogmatically certain of everything. That said, I'm still going to be paranoid that you are actually a wolf. You and everyone. But seriously, I'll try to trust myself and people. it'll be better when we have something concrete to go off.

One thing that could be said on SS's behalf is that she hasn't accepted Moment yet, even though she had the opportunity.
Now I'm pretty sure I currently can't accept Moment.

Oh, and Moment, if you read this, did you ever answer my question about Allomancer?

[TheBrie]

NO SON OF MINE IS BRINGING AN AUSSIE GIRL HOME MOMENT

I really should be insulted by this. What's wrong with Aussie girls?

[TheBrie]

Well if I can...

Moment, I would be honoured to dance with you.


@Mod, is a gentleman ask one lady, then a second lady, can the first lady still accept? The offer wasn't withdrawn in this situation.

[TheBrie]

I'm a good girl. Also I've had people at events on my home town/city ask whee I'm from because they thought I had an accent from elsewhere.

I prefer Scottish and Irish accents. I can even remember a situation where I found a Scottish guy easier to understand than some of the Australian guys around. True country guys who work with sheep and all that. I'm not around that accent a lot.

[TheBrie]

Interesting.

I was hoping to discuss reads and try to make some with Moment, but he's not talking to me.

Gamma, why are you sus of Doubting Thomas and Dr Worm?

[TheBrie]

what plan were you talking about with RC that showed he had a way to win this game and why did it revolve around him and Ank's death?

RC had near-lock townreads on Moment/Brie and Dann/Nancy, and the plan was simply to kill everyone except them. The problem was that RC's reads couldn't have been trusted to be 100% genuine while he was alive, so he needed to die for it to work.

Don't leave me amoment until the end. He's barely active, I'm swamped by real life, and my skills at reading are terrible.

I townread Moment early on, maily because I liked his clear post style, it dipped a little in the middle, especially as he never really was answering my questions (I asked him about Allomancer among over things), then in the end i decided to go for nice and uncomplicated, and town read, and accepted his offer. While interestingly my read on Allo was kinda opposite. Started out thinking he was scum, slowly grew to think maybe he was town, but when it really came down to choosing, I went and doubted again.

Current read on Moment: Basically I'm annoyed at him, because he's not said a thing. He said "Ego" in out PT, then disappeared, not giving me a chance to read him. I don't know what he really thinks about things, and he doesn't seem to care about the game enough. He might be busy, but since I had shred a few thoughts, he could have at least commented on them.

What I said then was that I townread SS, and also DT, but not as much.
From my limited experience with Nancy, I think she town here. And Taly's argument for why she wouldn't have ICed Pvt makes sense, and on top of other bits of towniness, iI want her to stick around.

I'll have to have a closer look at Gamma. I know she can be mislynched, sometimes with little scum involvement, but I've not actually put the work into looking at her meta. (Honestly, i can't remember when I looked at meta without someone linking a game first. I've gotten lazy.)

[TheBrie]

I think it's DT, Moment and one between TheBrie and SS, inclined to believe is TheBrie and aknowledging that I'm paranoid about SS but not townleaning him despite that. And Dr Worm would be the wildcard; he's the definition of null

Don't you think Moment would have avoided asking me if we were scum partners? The choice he was making was between me and SS, and i think we would have orchestrated things better if we'd been partners.

The upside to this if we listen to you is all the scum are among a few inactive, and less useful players.

Why paranoid of SS?

[TheBrie]

@Brie, why did you accept moment’s invite after he had issued one to SS?

Mostly because I was afraid life would hardly let me on before the deadline. i had a couple days of full on work (waking up at three am), and I didn't know then how tired I would be the rest of the time. Bad reason.
Also, I wasn't really townreading SS then, and didn't really want her with Moment.

i don't really see scum!Moment asking scum!SS when he had a reasonable chance of town!me accepting. So currently townreading SS. Not townreading Moment, but I want to see him post again before making a final judgement.

[TheBrie]

This is difficult. Gut reads I'm just gonna go 2, 3, 5 as town and 1 and 4 as scum

Am I the only one who found this incomprehensible?

[TheBrie]

@DT, Brie, who are you currently scumreading?

Leaning towards scum on Moment, but he's not giving me anything to read. Conflicted on Pink Ball.

I went and did meta on Gamma. Her game is quite similar as town and scum, as town she's got more questions that force others to get involved and are really challenging, as a little less "Explain this" and sort of mechanical stuff, or comments on how people are playing. But it's close, and I can't tell which side this falls on. Maybe a tiny bit towards the scum side, but not enough to say anything solid. It's not outside her town range.

[TheBrie]

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

[TheBrie]

This is difficult. Gut reads I'm just gonna go 2, 3, 5 as town and 1 and 4 as scum

Am I the only one who found this incomprehensible?

THEBREAD is NOT reading!!

Yeah it does seen like she skipped my walls

I've been skimming a bit and after posting that comment, I found I seem to have missed a page.

Ss at this point I am sorry that you're paired with DT because i think I do need that flip.

Yeah right?

If only Brie had waited for Moment like she was supposed to...

If only Brie had accepted Allo. At least he had flowers.

What are confident townreads for you

S_S

and why?

I'm going to place a vote somewhere tonight when I get to more ISO glances.

That is the million freaking dollar question, isn't it.

You, Moment, and Brie are all townreads that I have and are shared by a flipped town that I trust.

Worm and Pink are townreads of mine, but not shared by RC/Ank.

Dann/Nancy I don't townread but RC did.

I don't know which are the most confident.

@SS

Why are you town reading Moment?

[TheBrie]

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

what are these few things you feel pink ball has done that is scummy?

does this mean you put other players at solid town?

On Pinkball it's mostly a gut thing. There's something about her posts that rubs me wrong. A bit much fluff maybe. The constant excuse (Though I believe the excuses)

also i tried to make my pairing with brie happen, i just was busy and couldn't be on thread as much as i should have to play the game properly. sorry about that but i did go for brie pairing. she just accepted moment's especially after S_S wanted to wait and let moment choose. i think that act is kinda scummy in itself and not understanding why she is not getting more heat

also i hard defended myself because i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it. what are you curious about?

DT says he tried to make the pairing happen, but he never properly asked me. Not formally in bold. Which is probably due to him not reading the setup. I don't think I'd have gone with him anyway.

RC TROWNREADS SCUMYOU first day KILL HIM before CHANGES MIND!! NOT a BAD PLANS!!

It's not. It's certainly something that could cross my mind if I was scum.

See, Worm does make good posts.

Actual reds coming in next post.

[TheBrie]

Reads, I meant reads.

Nancy/Dannflor - both town. I know them a little, they don't feel like scum here, and I trust them to read each other.

Taly/Krazy - Taly is my strongest townread. Krazy not quite as strong, mostly because of the doubt of others, but my gut says town.

Those are the pairs I'd like left. I feel much more confident in Krazy town, than Moment town.

I town read SS, I don't Thomas. He rubs me the wrong way (partly due to language which is entirely stupidly NAI), and he feels like he's pulling town apart in some way. Maybe RC is wrong with some of his reads, But DT seems to be against the idea of listening to him. And his aggressive response to some people just feels overdone. Add to that the argument that he had been intending to sit out if he couldn't pair with me, then changed to which ever remaining lady looked townier.
On the other hand, his arguments are logical when you get past his tone.

Pinkball/Dr. Worm Conflicted. The idea of Worm as town appeals to me, and I don't think they're both scum.

Gamma/Pvt - I'd lean more towards Gamma as town, but there's a voice in my head that says it's due to really liking the idea that scum were trying to get Gamma lynched by ICing PVt.

@Everyone

Suppose I left. What's next if Moment and i are both town? How about if I'm town and Moment is scum? I'd like to know how useful the flip information would actually be.

[TheBrie]

I don’t under how Brie is getting voted over DT? *smdh*

it's literally 3-3 if you consider the fact that brie didnt vote yet and one of the vote is my vote and brie will probably be self pressing anyways

stop *bleep* tilting me

Self pressing? i'm not familiar with that term.

[TheBrie]

Gamma, interesting. What connection do you see between Moment and I and DT then?

Also it's time to get this moving along.
VOTE: Doubting Thomas

L-1

[TheBrie]

@Mod

I'm going V/LA about 24 hours from now for 4 days.

Should have internet access, but it's not 100% guaranteed, and i'll be busy hanging out with people. (Actually leaving morning after, but time will be filled up with packing and sleeping)

I'm not entirely happy with Moment hanging around for four days without me, but now he's back I certainly don't want to leave yet. Both in leaving the dance, and asking for a replacement. I want to keep playing. I just don't know if I really can.
I need a time machine so I can be in two places at once. (Except time travel would let me solve the game, and that would be cheating. Better duplicate myself.)


I really want to to beleive Pinkball is sincere. Tone and logic both go that way. Which is leaving me with too few scum reads.

[TheBrie]

For those who are considering Gamma as scum, who do you think the third is?

As for end game pairings, I've said this. Town read on Moment has improved since then, but I think I'm still okay with this.

Reads, I meant reads.

Nancy/Dannflor - both town. I know them a little, they don't feel like scum here, and I trust them to read each other.

Taly/Krazy - Taly is my strongest townread. Krazy not quite as strong, mostly because of the doubt of others, but my gut says town.

Those are the pairs I'd like left. I feel much more confident in Krazy town, than Moment town.

What Gamma's been saying, pushing Moment and I, seems to put her and Moment as SvT. They're not scum together, and my PoE says it's quite unlikely they're both town.

[TheBrie]

Moment did give me a bit of basic logical analysis before he disappeared again, and basic reds, but he also said he'd not really read the recent game. Since he's not around, I'm going to share it.

He looked at the DT/SS wagon. Only ones not voting at all are him (town he says), SS (flipped town), Pvt (Who he said he town read, didn't seem to be aware he;d been ICed.) From that it's clear scum must have bussed. Also said he townread the last two on the wagon (Dr. Worm, and Me,), so he doesn't think scum hopped on last minute, so the push may have come from scum. And his guess for scum on the wagon without actually reading things is Krazy.

Now that PB has flipped, either there was two scum on the DT lynch, or Moment is scum.
And I like the DT was getting himself lynched to protect someone theory. Also possibly to allow a partner to get town cred by doing it. So who?

[TheBrie]

It's not me. And Gamma and Moment don't look like scum together. Which worries me.

I don't know if I'll get on much in the next few days. It's actually after midnight now, and i should be asleep. i don't have time to explain what which bits i agree and disagree on regarding everything that's been said lately. But I'll do one thing.

VOTE: Gamma

[TheBrie]

Pvt

, suppose Gamma does flip scum. Who would you say is most likely Gamma partner?
Cause Gamma is probably going to be lynched, and it's best you have your say.

[TheBrie]

I don't think Moment has been reading much, so I don't know his opinions will be all that helpful.

[TheBrie]

Brie, if we flip Gamma and she flips green, what is the path from there in your view? Would Moment at that point be your top FoS?

Yes. Partly because I've not got the strongest townread there, and I don't want to think about the double-deep wolf theory.
But Gamma has been pushing there, and I'd like to think that if Gamma did turn out to be town, she's gotten something right.

I don't think Moment has been reading much, so I don't know his opinions will be all that helpful.

I disagree. I think he has a really good grasp of the gamestate, despite that. Like I’ve already said, if time weren’t an issue, I’d insist on it.

How about you Brie? Who do you think is Gamma’s likely partner? Why don’t you have an opinion on that?

It is surprisingly good grasp. But whatever you get will be naturally limited. He'd not given me any read on Gamma and what he said didn't even have a lean.

My only theory is that it could be someone trying to slow the Gamma lynch down, but even that only makes sense as a general game slowing tactic, and it doesn't feel like it's coming from there.
I'm not fully convinced by my own argument that Moment and Gamma can't be scum together. That was mostly based on the idea that Gamma wouldn't push the remaining scum buddy when she's already under suspicion herself, but that's faulty. If she firmly town read Moment and I, got lynched and flipped scum, you'd want us gone next.
So currently I think Moment and I should leave soon after a Gamma flip. If we're both town it saves you time you could be sorting each other. And I've said as much to Moment.

[TheBrie]

ISOed Moment. I can't see a scum motivation for anything there. The doubt I had back before I accepted him was mostly paranoia over being pocketed, and wondering if I liked him just for his style.

And now I sound flakey, and people won't believe I was actually willing to leave.

[TheBrie]

Scum is more likely in Krazy/Taly than Dann/Nancy.

[TheBrie]

I'm Pippin.

[TheBrie]

Good game. First time I've been mislynched. By the time it got to that, I was pretty sure Moment and I were both town, but I really didn't know what to do about it, or care enough to fight. I'd already accepted that I wasn't going to endgame.

I never would have guessed DT was The Worst. Looking back I can see the similarities, but the thought had never crossed my mind. I'd probably have accepted (if he'd asked me properly), if I had known. We probably would have been lynched earlier than DT/SS were.

DT/Duck, did you ever actually plan to be partnered with me?

[TheBrie]

Wiat, maybe I misread that. I dunno anymore. I thought someone said he was, but now I'm confused.

[TheBrie]

Thanks for unconfusing me.