Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[Irrelephant11]

Rolled town :3 Volxen and Irre, I hope you guys did too!

VOTE: Demonlord

Ooh.

I did!

VOTE: demonlord

[Irrelephant11]

I have a serious foreword I'd like to get in sooner rather than later

I admit I’m curious
Also if you and Shoshin could announce relatively quickly if you’re both town or not that would be very useful

[Irrelephant11]

By which I mean, sort each other please

Yes voting demon lord is a requirement of the townblock

[Irrelephant11]

can we not play reindeer game kthnx

Hm?

[Irrelephant11]

Hello there, so many new faces in here, let’s see...

VOTE: Shoshin

(This is how I make new friends by the way)

Am I a new face to u

[Irrelephant11]

Auro/Radiant town till further notice
Fur is the scum if page 1 has 1
SR is a mystery

[Irrelephant11]

Ok

Pedit: oh I thought you were an alt
Nice to meet you

[Irrelephant11]

That said I'm not sure how serious the read was

What confidence do you assign Shoshins read on me?

Yeah not very, I just enjoy trying to sort early

Depends

[Irrelephant11]

I figured you believed I’m an alt, I’m not, apparently the word “scum” and “reading” in a nickname spell out “alt account” for a lot of people here xD

For me it was the fact your account is new and you haven’t played newbie games

How do you read FusCostco’s attitude so far

Fuscosco why does early-game bother you?

Pedit: Auro, it’s closer to the latter but your entrance’s to the game we’re part of it too

Pedit2: spciy

[Irrelephant11]

Indeed. What are you waiting for RC? its not a foreword if everyone else already has a turn.

I think I lightly townread this

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Auro

Your avatar is amazing

[Irrelephant11]

Eyy

[Irrelephant11]

DT feels towny
VOTE: scum reading doesn’t

Not touching RC or Shoshin till they figure each other out more

[Irrelephant11]

shoshin still ick

[Irrelephant11]

I lost my light townread on DT for a bit while reading the argument with RC, but it sorta came back in the past couple pages
Auro/RC still town for now I think?
Fus townie
Volxen nulltown
Clem null
Huh who’s left

[Irrelephant11]

Oh I’m voting who’s left, nice
Yeah SR still not towny in retrospect. Joining a push on Auro because he disappeared at a “convenient” time?? Lol

[Irrelephant11]

err

town

I lold

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin, you understand why after you pulled the wool over my eyes last game I have to hold you to a pretty high standard here. Explain your vote on me. I have no reason to townread you right now. In fact, I’m tempted to think you’re only voting me because you know this.

Re: me read on DT
I thought his early posts looked like eager town
I thought his argument posts included a lot of weird moments, like getting offended that you tried to affect his volxen read with meta, or getting offended that RC called him bad. One post in particular felt like a post I’ve made as scum (will quote soon).
Then I felt his most recent posts acknowledged some of how his reactions might have been overreactions. The sheer number of words he’s written in trying to explain himself also felt a little towny. As I write it out, though, it actually feels more like I’m describing someone I should be nullscum-reading...

[Irrelephant11]

are you guys seeing this?

I literally come into thread, thread has 4 pages, I read the posts, I point out couple posts I think is scummy, and just lightly vote in a still rvs-fested situation in the game

then auro says, "volxen just posts that all the time"

i am like ok, but i can do stuff without taking your meta of another player as a scripture in the bible and still vote when nobody else is saying shit?

and then RC comes out of nowhere attacking about how i am double downing and overreactingly defending myself on my "case" on volxen (except i was clearly just going off of a couple posts, as those were the only things I had)

and how I am scummy for not givng his reads "enough respect" based on games i played with him in the past, but which is just purely an atrocious thinking because he is expecting me to blindly sheep him every game then?

and then twisting this to make it seem like i am attacking his reads for no reason? even though he was the one who mentioned how from my previous experiences with him, i should know his town game enough or something to just sheep him? i dont understand the logic of this argument at all

and then he goes onto talk about how i should stop and it's better for me to just die if i am not gonna 'cooperate' with town or whatever lol even though the past 3 pages have just been all him and auro attacking me for a 4 page read on volxen and just refusing to take in volxen's "meta" fo rthe time being because it's really early in the game

RC complains about someone saying someone has a weak presence 4 pages in in the game, but is pushing me for trying to make content over only 4 pages, it's like me just voting a single player 4 pages in in the game should be forbidden?

This post felt very scummy

[Irrelephant11]

Waxoo, I agree some of RC’s posts about how many votes should be placed are unusual
What about them is scummy

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:

What are your reads

[Irrelephant11]

Town reads :

Fus and irrelephant (I put both of you on the same line because I am strongly townreading you guys.) Reason why they’re here is because elephant gave townreads way early on, several times if I’m not mistaken, overall town behavior. As for fus, I townread him because of his 257, 260 , 261 which I find town-indicative.

DT - this comes next, if this were to be a rainbow read, but I am not that good with forum stuff, so just imagine this is a scale. DT, despite clogging this thread, his accusations were fine and if we are being objective, there’s no discrepancy in what he says and whom he accused. He had good reasoning to push RC.

Why is my giving out townreads a reason to townread me?

What are the good reasons DT had to push RC?

[Irrelephant11]

Lol Shoshin you’ll have to show receipts on that one. Our last game I did the same thing (it didn’t work well, but it’s not insanity till it doesn’t work multiple times )

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin maybe I do give out townreads a lot as scum, idk you’re probably right
I thought you were saying I’m scum for doing that, which I think would be silly to say

I’m not currently super scumreading you, Shoshin, but I was really certain and really wrong that you were town in our last game. I need you to step it up a bit (I know your town game to be strong) before I will consider townreading you
I’m not townreading you yet, and I expect you to start dunking on scum soon or I will start scumreading you
If you think I’m scum, find my partners please and thanks

I doubt the three players on RC’s wagon are the same alignment

I think RC saying town is unlikely to win is one of the scummiest things he’s said this game; especially if he really is town who sees his own wagon as being scum-led (like? Just dunk on them and voila, you’re not getting lynched and at least one scum is dead?)

Shoshin also: you scumread me for being excited to be here. Presumably because you know I enjoy rolling scum most? But like, I also enjoy rolling town... and I’m especially excited by the idea I might be in a town with you/RC/Auro/Volxen. I think it’s ridiculous that you think my excitement to play (especially after a long break away from mafia) is scum-indicative

[Irrelephant11]

RC I’m skeptical of the idea that you townread me because we “mindmelded” on scumreading Shoshin
Fypov all I did was quote your post saying Shoshin was ick
Why aren’t you more paranoid about me?

Volxen if you could discuss Auro and Shoshin’s alignment that would be great

I need to like start gathering townreads in the quieter half of the playerlist
Then again maybe this is a “scum is in the lurker list” games
Kinda doubt it though

Pedit: Oh I should probably say: RC is a crap wagon and should not be lynched today
I am only bringing up my paranoia because I’d like to feel settled on RC being town which is hard to do

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Clemency

[Irrelephant11]

Though I’m sure you could have said that more kindly
That makes sense I guess

I want to hear more from wazoo in general

Pedit: ummm I think you/Shoshin would 1v1 and you’d probably get lynched -> if you’re town, Shoshin would get lynched at the next opportunity

[Irrelephant11]

If you were 100% certain Shoshin was scum and you flipped town I’d take your read to heart
I have before so you know I mean this

In fact a way to win this game could be you solve it, die, and I get your scumreads lynched tbh. Not that that’s my preference

[Irrelephant11]

What was the point of asking about a hypothetical Shoshin read, again?

[Irrelephant11]

nah. if i have to die for my reads to be taken seriously I'd rather just not try to solve.

This is fair.

Shoshin do you think RC is town?

Pedit: I don’t think you’re today’s lynch, RC. Maybe you’re right that you’re tomorrow’s, idk. But I don’t think you’re today’s.

Pedit2: oh.

[Irrelephant11]

Or like
Third option
Figure out which of the three that want you lynched is scum and we’ll lynch them instead

Who besides those three wants you dead?

[Irrelephant11]

If your goal with this AtE is to get someone on your side, consider that goal accomplished
I don’t think you should be lynched unless and until multiple lynches flip town

[Irrelephant11]

Ok

[Irrelephant11]

DT, Clemency, GW, how do you read each other?

[Irrelephant11]

Why are you voting RC tho

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah a rep out would be better
Do you think he’s more likely to rep out after you lynch him or

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: scum reading

I need like so much more from you in general

Pedit: okay but getting yourself lynched without even working to solve the game on behalf of the townies you leave behind us strictly anti-wincon which imo is worse

[Irrelephant11]

Both can be true

Fus just ignore the slot. AtE isn’t strictly scummy
Let scum waste D2 on getting RC lynched

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t know who you’re talking to but if you’re talking to me I’m trying to get Fus and you to unvote you

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry you feel that way, I was having fun before you self voted
I might still have fun but town!RC quitting was not what I was hoping for when I rolled town

[Irrelephant11]

2/5 were because you quit, though. And the hammer probably will be, too. 50% quit? Whatever you wanna call it, it’s sad

Yes RC is L-1

[Irrelephant11]

Fus if you want RC lynched, fine. At least unvote until demonlord plays

[Irrelephant11]

sigh
someone hammer rc
the reason all his games suck is because he keeps playing like this

I would appreciate if you would back off RC until demonlord has played

[Irrelephant11]

sigh
someone hammer rc
the reason all his games suck is because he keeps playing like this

I would appreciate if you would back off RC until demonlord has played

This is all you have to say to this?

In a world where RC is scum, who are his buddies? @clem.

[Irrelephant11]

Lol didn’t mean to quote

[Irrelephant11]

Ugh I have to go

I think RC is town
Regardless of if you agree with me or not make demonlord play before hammering anyone, please and thanks

[Irrelephant11]

Why is RC town, Irrel?

Because there was a real chance of him getting hammered for a bit there (especially with his reputation - town might jump at the chance of hammering him on the chance he’s scum, scum might jump at the chance to badhammer just to get rid of him)
And scum!RC doesn’t risk his scum record D1 in a nightless on the off chance Irrelephant will save him
I mean, like, maybe he does, I’ve learned there’s nothing that’s completely outside of the realm of possibility for RC. But fmpov, knowing RC is planning our interactions in a scum pt, I like to think I’m not perfectly pulling off his plan to avoid the D1 lynch and look towny doing it

[Irrelephant11]

Lol *knowing RC is NOT planning our interactions in a scum pt

Hahaha

[Irrelephant11]

no more replacing out in the face of shit scumreads.

are you just being nancy drew?

why are you talking about subbing in the first place

i am not sure if i should be more disappointed at town!you talking about subbing and self voting or scum!you doing this

either way that's a lot of respect for your game lost for either alignment

Can we please stop measuring who’s contempt for the other’s game is bigger

[Irrelephant11]

I want to hear more from wazoo in general

Do you have a general question? A specific one?

Pedit: Oh I should probably say: RC is a crap wagon and should not be lynched today
I am only bringing up my paranoia because I’d like to feel settled on RC being town which is hard to do

Sounds like you're willfully engaging in confbias. Maybe it's hard to do because RC's behavior is scummy?

DT, Clemency, GW, how do you read each other?

As I mentioned earlier, I have a townlean on DT and a scumlean on Clemency.

Mm i did forget a couple of your posts, my bad
You’ve been pretty quiet in general though so I still want more from you I think

Ummmm idk what though tbh. Talk to me more about intentionally voting RC with Clemency, your scumlean. Also about why you townlean SR

[Irrelephant11]

And scum!RC doesn’t risk his scum record D1 in a nightless on the off chance Irrelephant will save him

this is a really dumb thought

Why

[Irrelephant11]

Are you scum with DT, RC?

I now feel DT/Shoshin/RC are the same alignment
All the right paranoia about w/w interactions from DT and Shoshin at all the right times

Maybe scum is just Clem/SR/Wazoo? Or something thereabouts

[Irrelephant11]

Not that it couldn’t EVER be RC/Shoshin/DT, but

[Irrelephant11]

DT's scum, Irrel.

Yeah, maybe

[Irrelephant11]

Why Fus? I got town vibes

[Irrelephant11]

Who are the scum, Irrel?

My current thought is 3 of Clem/SR/Wazoo/Demon
But I think you know about me that I usually spend D1 finding a strong townie to sheep because I struggle to nail down scum pre-flips. It’s why I usually am your second vote

[Irrelephant11]

Why not DT?

Reminds me of Gustavo

[Irrelephant11]

DT have we played before??

[Irrelephant11]

Oh yeah never mind I was thinking of someone else

[Irrelephant11]

Another player who made enemies more easily than friends. He and Shoshin 1v1’d as T/T

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry I should have worded that differently. The similarity is 1v1’ing Shoshin

RC I think Shoshin is town. You?

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is good scumhunter as town, ye
I usually sheep Shoshin when I feel she’s town, I don’t think I said you sheep me?

[Irrelephant11]

She is either way overconfident about her abilities or scum

Not entirely sure how to distinguish between the two without using her scum flip here because if this is her scum game I'm 100% sure I can powerlynch her D1 in every future game she's scum

Sigh

I was hoping the two of you would just agree you were both town. We’re the odds against me here? Maybe they were


Also is it just consensus Auro is town then? Let’s have him talk more he usually seems to bring sense to things

Pedit: yeah that’s me saying “this is why I usually sheep you, Shoshin”

[Irrelephant11]

You can feel it’s weird but if it’s effective *shrug*

[Irrelephant11]

Yes explain a Shoshin read more

I feel like DT has cut off too many relationships this game to be scum, like as scum why does he want me/RC/you/Shoshin annoyed with him

Pedit: my whole post is to Auro

[Irrelephant11]

This is a weird game

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel shouldn't have stoked RC's paranoia about me. Irrel should have had me as null or town, not "ick."

Nullscum isn't acceptable for doing nothing. And besides, I'm extremely towny, Auro. I never said I did nothing towny. Why are you making all this crap up about me?

I had you as null, time passed, and it started to feel like you were avoiding the thread. Given your history with both myself and RC, I started to wonder if that was calculated. Thus, “ick”.

I think Shoshin is town

What do you make of her push on you?
What makes you feel she's town?

I believe everything she said in her argument with RC, and like i said I think Shoshin and DT were paranoid about each other being partners with RC with appropriate timing, meaning they’re actually experiencing paranoia. I’ve seen Shoshin’s playstyle and refusal to allow scumreads on her come from town!her, so I don’t scumread those things like other players are. RC scumreading Shoshin is the main thing giving me pause, since he also has familiarity with those parts of her play

You're also missing the point, Auro. Irrel isn't confident reading me anymore because last time I was scum he wrongly read me as town (and not only him, everyone in the game basically thought I was the most towny player for the entire game). The point is, Irrel lacks confidence in reading me so his response of calling me "ick" doesn't make any sense. He knows I'm more than capable of towning my slot up as scum so the "ick" thing felt like an attempt to stoke RC's paranoia about me into a potential death tunnel.

Or maybe you make me paranoid now and that’s all there is to it

[Irrelephant11]

Someone who townreads SR, please make a towncase. The slot feels overly self-conscious

[Irrelephant11]

I'm liking GrandWazoo for town.

Volxen, what's your read on me?

Yeah what are volxen’s reads On anyone?

VOTE: volxen

[Irrelephant11]

Eh maybe he doesn’t deserve a vote yet
VOTE: clemency

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency please give an in depth read on me, volxen, and shoshin

[Irrelephant11]

And like, everyone? But those three first thank u

[Irrelephant11]

@GW's 720:
1. Re: Policy lynches, Why not? I'd be against a policy lynch on RC for "being too good as scum", for example; but you could call my Clemency push an effective policy-lynch too since I can imagine his play coming from town as well (from experience).

My point was not about policy-lynches per se, but about Shoshin's hypocrisy in wanting DT modkilled.

2. "Only scum would know who's nominated" - I think this is a stretch, and she's clearly speaking in context, you're interpreting the intent of the post wrongly.

Combined with her argument "well we can always lynch RC D2" assuming RC would be nominated in the first place, is a scum mindset. As is "you know I'll defend you D1" Esp. when RC was openly and repeatedly declaring his intention to ragequit.

3. About the "if you push me I'll push you" - I brought the same point up in my push, and her rebuttal was that it was her applying a BoP to RC. While I don't like it much, can you not see this coming from town?

I didn't buy her rebuttal at all.

Shoshin being hypocritical about the topic of policy lynches doesn’t make her scum.
I have the same expectation of RC being nominated D2, regardless of his alignment.
You didn’t answer Auro’s question, here - what about Shoshin BoP’ing RC is scummy? Why can’t it come from town?

[Irrelephant11]

Me either

[Irrelephant11]

Oh cool

[Irrelephant11]

Who’s the third with clem/wazoo? Can it be SR?

Pedit: my feeling is DT is being townread mostly by scum in an effort to split town, while town is more likely to scumread DT out of frustration

[Irrelephant11]

And his scumhunting is super mechanical. Do you at any point feel like he's tried to sort me or RC?

I don’t at any point feel like he’s tried to sort anyone

[Irrelephant11]

Waxoo/Clem feels w/w

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah, if you read GW’s ISO like he’s flipped red, his teammates are almost definitely Clem/demon

[Irrelephant11]

Clemency might flip town.

Who would you replace Clem with? DT?

[Irrelephant11]

If I shift my perspective I guess there’s also a world where it’s like....... Shoshin... Clem.. volxen? And town is doing most of their work for them?

Volxen definitely doesn’t deserve the townreads he’s getting, btw, even as I don’t really think he’s scum

[Irrelephant11]

Volxen's hope to play with town RC felt slightly townish. But I agree he's not town town.

Yeah, and I didn’t dislike his choice to pursue SR. But I’m a world where SR is town, volxen hasn’t accomplished much for town

[Irrelephant11]

What are the odds scum will put three of the four posters on this page as tomorrow’s lynch options

[Irrelephant11]

Everything Wazoo has said about other player’s alignments has read to me like “I’ve decided to have this read on this player, so uhhh, here are some reasons”

Refer to his relative certainty that RC/DT couldn’t be T/T. His scumlean on Clemency that has stuck all game but gone nowhere. His inability to explain most of his townreads etc

[Irrelephant11]

I asked him to explain his SR townread, he said he couldn’t really
He also has offered no reasons for any townreads w/o being asked that I can think of

Do you think he was right about DT/RC having at least one scum? I don’t think so, and therefore the scum motivation to insist that there must be one is kinda obvious to me

[Irrelephant11]

But also like examine his Clemency scumread

[Irrelephant11]

Aside from the two I've mentioned, I get slight town vibes from Aero, Fusco, SR. Volxen shoshin and you are null. Scumlean Clemency but I gather his erratic play is something of a strategy so IDK. Then there's demonlord who hasn't posted.

“Scumlean on clemency who I know I should probably scumread (TMI) but also an excuse for us all to ignore him”

As I mentioned earlier, I have a townlean on DT and a scumlean on Clemency.

“If you’re going to ask directly, yeah of course I scumread scum”

Never really reads like he *wants* to scumread Clemency, just that he needs a scumread and he can get away with scumreading a partner ever so slightly

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, pretend Clemency is town who scum would like to keep around for tomorrow’s phase, when they put two townies and a scum in the pool (which if Clemency is town, would probably be reasonable). Wazoo’s play regarding Clemency is still scummy in that case, too

Auro, who’s in your scumpool rn?

SR, rather than argue with you about the extreme difference between my read on RC and my read on GW, I’ll just refer you to my ISO, where I have already gone into detail on both. I don’t scumread you right now, though, for the record. You’re basically null for me.

[Irrelephant11]

Auro is town

[Irrelephant11]

Just responding to you and shoshin’s waning townreads. I felt the same and then reread his ISO and wanted to reaffirm it

[Irrelephant11]

You're my most confident TR rn irrelephant

My heart is ringing alarm bells about it but my brain is saying “ditto”

[Irrelephant11]

Every single player has SvS looking associatives with clemency lol

And yet I can imagine a scumteam without him on it

[Irrelephant11]

For myself:

Me
RC
Shoshin/Auro
Volxen/Thomas
Fuscosco/Scum reading - null line
Clemency
Wazoo/demon

Pedit: lol guess it’s about time for a readslist huh

[Irrelephant11]

Ye at this point my volxen townread is weak but expectant
You move straight to the bottom of my reads if you’re still alive and only town has flipped after D3, but I guess all I’m saying there is “I’ll reevaluate after each flip” which is nothing special

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t know much about your recent streak I just have regrets from that game I gave you the lylo win

[Irrelephant11]

But like also I can’t waste time getting paranoid about you if two of my bottom four reads are town and not showing it

Volxennnn come do one of your long multi-paragraph takedowns of scum

[Irrelephant11]

Basically we need a top two townies that are never scum

And we need to catch two scum

Nah we need to get all three scum before lylo because presuming you want to take me to lylo as your fellow never-scum there’s a good chance I’d paranoia-hammer you

[Irrelephant11]

Can’t help it paranoia is my weakness

Also Shoshin can you explain why I should townread you more than RC

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel, promise me that if we're in LYLO together that you don't hammer until I've voted.

Hmmm
I can’t wrap my head around how this could ever be significant to promise

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel, promise me that if we're in LYLO together that you don't hammer until I've voted.

Hmmm
I can’t wrap my head around how this could ever be significant to promise

Like, presumably you’d be voting the third person in lylo with us
In which case you’re cross voting and I’m the hammer regardless, like this isn’t a significant thing to promise
Alternatively, you’re asking me to promise not to hammer you until you’ve voted and scumcased me
In which case there’s no point in me promising not to hammer you since it’s out of my hands

I’m actually kinda dumbfounded that you asked this

Pedit: OHHH in 5-way lylo. Sure, I promise! That was my bad, and i was very *over* that game. Kinda thought you were too... sorry

[Irrelephant11]

Like even my fear cases I anticipate being resolved early

This is fair
Mostly I feel like Shoshin and I are currently being friends who play mafia together and have some things to resolve more than playing this particular game

[Irrelephant11]

RC's better scum than me, Irrel. And my play looks nothing like my play as scum. I'm not pocketing anyone at all.

That's an important promise to me because of that game where I was locktown in LYLO with you and you jumped the gun before I had a chance to vote.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Yeah okay if you’re scum here it’s probably like with RC anyway
You’re both my top townread in equal measure at this moment with varying amounts of BoP to be applied over time

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah wait why are you still voting DT, Shoshin?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll say since you agreed somewhat that DT was my secret townread

I'm not even rly townreading you

hello? like what is this shit

RC being RC
Who are you appealing to here?

[Irrelephant11]

DT can you go more int your Wazoo townread

[Irrelephant11]

Lol it’s the March thread thank u
VOTE: wazoo

[Irrelephant11]

Gnight and gl hf

[Irrelephant11]

Wazoo, please respond to 1051. Also, to clarify, 520 doesn't say I want to lynch RC, it just says that anyone who wants to lynch him should wait until D2. Why do you keep misreading what I've said?

My point was that "wait until D2" assumes that he's nominated D2. After my flip, it is a virtual lock that he won't be.
Hopefully town remembers that he's singlehandedly driven a mislynch, despite being the scummiest player in the game.

If you flip town RC is my new priority lynch. He has asked us to BoP him, basically, so I’m fairly certain he’ll get lynched in that case.
Any reads besides RC you want to share while at L-1?

[Irrelephant11]

[Irrelephant11]

I’m annoyed and I think RC knows it’s going to make us all more paranoid but like esp. me after I just said I’d BoP him
Tbh I’m BoPing him on the first two lynches regardless of what he says so while I’m annoyed there’s a good chance I’ll eventually follow him
Independently of RC I scumread Wazoo more tho so for now I might just sit

[Irrelephant11]

Clem do you have like

Reads

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: DT

Possibly better as of right now gimme a bit

"oh no when wazoo flips town i can't mislynch clem"

It is really unclear what your point is here Clem
Feels a little like “I’m annoyed you moved onto scum” TMI

[Irrelephant11]

scumread Wazoo more

Don't you have DT as a townread?

Yes but it’s also a very conditional townread
Like I don’t townread him because I think he’s been super towny
I townread him because I have a hard time making sense of his scum play here if scum, and I have stronger scumreads. It’s not hard to imagine the slot just being scum playing in an aggressive way I don’t expect

RC would you like to explain the move to DT or just hope I’ll catch your vision on my own

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah why DT soecifically

[Irrelephant11]

RC ur scum game really took down hill, didn't it

If you would like me to believe RC is scum you will have to convince me he is playing this incredibly well as scum, not that he has suddenly gotten bad at playing scum.

Who besides RC is scum

[Irrelephant11]

Who are you townreading

[Irrelephant11]

What about Clemency is supposed to be towny for those of us who don’t mind meld with him
Same question re:wazoo

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin when did I become locktown for you

[Irrelephant11]

Sort by post count etc etc

[Irrelephant11]

I understand that like, if someone is gonna high-post as scum, RC is a likely candidate
But like wow voting RC is this gamestate just feels wasteful

There a five players who have posted 80% of this game’s content
2 slots have posted less than the mod, and four other slots are posting more than the mod but less than half as much as me or Auro (and debatably some of them have posted less actual content than the mod tbh)

RC is your push rn?
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the town motivation for using your vote in such a way, even if you think he has some scum equity

[Irrelephant11]

Wazoo why aren’t I a scumread for you if defending RC is what it takes

[Irrelephant11]

i dont understand your town motive in having a sole wazoo wagon for hours and hours

Hours aren’t long
I’m trying to slow my game a bit to match the pace of the majority of players; if they’re only gonna post once a day or less, I’ll leave my vote where it is long enough to get a reaction/see more players change their votes etc.

It’s only a “stale wagon” because some players are just playing slowly, which is what MS is good for for some people. I’d like more from many players, but for now I’ll wait

[Irrelephant11]

Wazoo why aren’t I a scumread for you if defending RC is what it takes

I don't think you're scum. I think you're wrong on RC but you're not alone. Sadly.

Right but like

why

[Irrelephant11]

Tell me more

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll side with Fus here because I still townlean him
Give him space he’s been busy at work #relatable

[Irrelephant11]

I didn’t say it’s not scummy
All I’m saying is in the case that he’s town he won’t be showing it any time soon if you are criticizing him as he tries to re enter the thread

You seem pretty annoyed though and I don’t have strong feelings here so I’ll just let this play out

Pedit: I don’t really remember my reasons for townreading fus rn though I’ll note that off the top of my head his comments on players I find scummy haven’t rang w/w. I’ll ISO him again later

[Irrelephant11]

can someone explain why grandwazoo is still alive

Your efforts to lengthen the day were more successful than your efforts to shorten it

[Irrelephant11]

That sounds great
The mood of this game could use some lightening imo

Pedit: agreed

[Irrelephant11]

I dunno maybe I’m misremembering his posts up to this point entirely, Ive done that before
I’m playing this game exclusively on mobile so I haven’t done as much re reading as in other games

[Irrelephant11]

I have a minor family emergency. I don’t think I need to replace but I won’t be posting content for 24 hours probably

[Irrelephant11]

Minor family emergency is taking more time than I expected.

I’ve caught up reading, but don’t have time to lay out all my thoughts rn. I should be able to post more tomorrow though so I won’t replace.

Shoshin, can you elaborate on the process that got you from “Irrelephant is scum because he’s happy to be here” to “I’m never voting you this game, Irrelephant” to “Vote: Irrelephant”?
I’m not interested in standalone reasons for “here’s why Irrelephant might be ____ alignment”, I want you to point to when and why your mind changed. I don’t feel I’ve seen a consistent or follow-able progression from you, and would like to hear you explain that.

Volxen, I agree with Auro that “one of {Auro, Irrelephant} has to be scum” is based on fallacious reasoning. For example, why isn’t it possible scum thought “let’s pick two talkative town players and a quiet player, to give ourselves room to maneuver on the wagons” with no regard to your particular skills as a player? I also don’t think you were widely scumread before this game day.

Those things said, I do think it’s more than 50% likely that all three of us are town. Let’s not completely forget the rest of the playerlist this game day.

[Irrelephant11]

Okay so I’m getting back into this

Here we goooo

[Irrelephant11]

So first @shoshin

I was thinking last night about why you would scumread my excitement to play when you know I’m partially playing because you had mentioned wanting to play a game together - Auro did the same, and I was excited to play with you both regardless of alignment. At first that insistence from you that my excitement was scummy felt scummy, because while sure I enjoy rolling scum, in what world would I be excited about rolling scum against town!you&RC. Then I realized that fypov if RC is town I sure would have to increase his paranoia about you so the two of you couldn’t get together to successfully scumread me and a lot of your actions regarding me made more sense

So I think Shoshin is town, albeit with the exception that if I were going solely off who of volxen/Shoshin i have more paranoia about I’d vote Shoshin. If I can get confident enough that she’s town though I do feel I’m a better person to vote out then her; I’ve won multiple games partially by sheeping Shoshin. Irrelephant from our last game is wincing at these words lol

I think volxen’s insistence and unwillingness to back down from chaining my & Auro’s lynches here (i think we’re both town, and though I haven’t meta’d Auro recently I’ve hydra’d with him and I do feel I am a better scum player than him and wouldn’t be townreading him as strongly as I am now if he were scum; I’ll probably metadive his more recent games to be sure tho because his apparent high win rate is interesting) is not towny. But volxen’s heavy analysis feels like town!him so idk what to do there yet

Shoshin why is volxen town?

I also want to spend a lot of this day having the three of us discuss the rest of the playerlist because if we’re all town this is a great chance to do some strong analysis

@volxen you misunderstand my point re: you getting picked. Why is it more likely that you got picked by someone familiar with your meta than it is you got picked by someone who was more focused on how the most talkative players expressed very little interest in lynching you D1?

[Irrelephant11]

Also just a general response to “well _____ got nominated so my read on them has flipped/changed drastically”....
Is mafia not able to do that on purpose?
Seems like a dangerous way to fluctuate reads when this will be happening every other phase and mafia want things to be wifom-y

@those townreading me strongly: why? I don’t personally feel like I’ve played that much better than some other games where I’ve been widely scumread

[Irrelephant11]

@those townreading me strongly: why? I don’t personally feel like I’ve played that much better than some other games where I’ve been widely scumread

To elaborate on this I kinda feel about myself the way I felt about people sheeping DT last gameday: I’m widely townread because it’s convenient somehow for scum, rather than because I deserve it

[Irrelephant11]

ALSO thanks to everyone who said something about my family emergency

Spoiler: a quick summary of the emergency, if you care

My wife’s brother has depression and (mostly accidentally) went off his meds and had a sort of episode and we were real worried about him, but he’s now under medical care and has a lot more support now and I think he’ll pull through this episode okay. I hope this will be a wake up call for him about his medication, but either way I’m just glad he’s okay... anyway. Thanks for caring. Back to the game <3

[Irrelephant11]

I do feel I am a better scum player than him

I got bored of rolling scum so much, but now I want to roll scum against you sometime. It's on

@volxen outside of the two of us planning this as theater, don’t you feel like this is a pretty towny reaction from Auro?
Also @volxen how do you read Auro and I outside of the fact that you’ve been nominated? Surely you don’t think Auro is the best lynch after I flip green, given the number of actually independently scummy slots?

[Irrelephant11]

Volxen have you shared a readslist this game day

[Irrelephant11]

If you post one in the next 60 seconds I’ll townread you more, promise

[Irrelephant11]

Re: volxen’s pagetop

I agree that scum was probably aware of me > Shoshin > you in terms of commonly held reads. I’m not sure that means the goal of nominating the three of us was to get you lynched. If Shoshin is scum (or if I am scum), I would agree that’s more likely. If we’re all town, though, I expect scum wanted wifom and the microscope that is getting nominated to reduce all our towniness. Scum would probably love to have me lynched with the way everyone has just decided I’m locktown (except for those of you who are voting me because wifom)

[Irrelephant11]

Why is it risky for scum!Shoshin to put herself in a middle-tier, reads-wise?
Put another way, if scum decided to put one scum on the nominations list, Shoshin is the probably the towniest (if she is scum). Wouldn’t it make sense to put the towniest scum among the nominations in hopes of lynching one of the most widely townread players (me)?
Put another way, yeah duh it’s risky to put any scum anywhere in the nominations list: why does that mean Shoshin wouldn’t do it?

And separately: how else are you reading Shoshin?

[Irrelephant11]

I have only played with scum!Shoshin once, and was fleeced (though i stand by the idea I would not have townread her so strongly if she were traditional scum; she was a 3p that game). I don’t know how risky her play as scum is, basically, but I know she’s a much better liar than I had previously thought.

Ignoring questions isn’t directly scum-indicative for her, though. She does that all the time as town. I have also seen her townlock players early as town and as 3p, so I don’t scumread her for that either. If anything, my lingering doubts come from being so bamboozled our last game, not because of her play. Well, with the exception of her scumread of me, that is - I go back and forth on whether or not she should be voting me here, since she’s never shown such paranoia about me and has no new reason to do so as town (it’s not like I tricked her last game or anything). She also has gone quieter about me a couple times after I’ve suggested I townread her, suggesting her read on me might have more to do with my read on her than my actual play (but like... I sympathize)

[Irrelephant11]

I like the thought process
Do you think Shoshin is scum, though, independently

[Irrelephant11]

Also could you provide reads for more of the plist

[Irrelephant11]

Auro what are your current Shoshin thoughts

Shoshin are you townreading SR ‘cause I’m getting there I think

[Irrelephant11]

Wazoo, please respond to 1051. Also, to clarify, 520 doesn't say I want to lynch RC, it just says that anyone who wants to lynch him should wait until D2. Why do you keep misreading what I've said?

My point was that "wait until D2" assumes that he's nominated D2. After my flip, it is a virtual lock that he won't be.
Hopefully town remembers that he's singlehandedly driven a mislynch, despite being the scummiest player in the game.

If you flip town RC is my new priority lynch. He has asked us to BoP him, basically, so I’m fairly certain he’ll get lynched in that case.
Any reads besides RC you want to share while at L-1?

I’m annoyed and I think RC knows it’s going to make us all more paranoid but like esp. me after I just said I’d BoP him
Tbh I’m BoPing him on the first two lynches regardless of what he says so while I’m annoyed there’s a good chance I’ll eventually follow him
Independently of RC I scumread Wazoo more tho so for now I might just sit

just gonna call this out.
it's really at all fair that there's this expectation that i'm gonna be getting shit pushed by half the game then have to get a guaranteed scum or I'm going to get lynched on BoP
and if I don't call for BoP I'm just not going to have anyone listening to me, so... like... nah. you wouldn't find it okay if someone lynched you for incorrectly scumreading someone who was clearly approaching the game in bad faith. but because I'm -me- any kind of etiquette falls by the wayside.

so maybe I just can't play mafia. maybe there's no way to enjoy town and scum. i don't think there should be, but it feels more and more to me like this is just a big fucking waste of my time

Oh I wanted to respond to this @RC if you’re still reading along

The first quote here is a lie designed to get maybetown!wazoo out of his shell and concerned with sorting more than just you

The second post here is also a lie designed to make maybescum!RC unsure about how many mislynches he can have before I push his lynch

I’m pretty sure RC was town so I wanted to clear these up

[Irrelephant11]

SR's locktown.

The scum are within DT, Clem, Vedith, and Fusco.

You think fusco is the only scum that participated in Wazoo’s lynch

[Irrelephant11]

I will after Shoshin answers my question

[Irrelephant11]

@Irrelephant It's fine to ask others for reads, but I don't believe you have shared any reads this day phase beyond thinking that Shoshin is town, so please share any other reads that you have.

Right but like
I played D1
Iirc until this post from you there were multiple players you’d never spoken about (which honestly might still be true?).

Anyway

{me}

{Shoshin, Auro}
{volxen, Alonzo}

{scum reading}
{doubting Thomas} - null
{everyone else}

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t get the feeling from either Shoshin or volxen that they have much agenda and I agree with most of their analysis
So in spite of my paranoia I have to play like the towniest players are town, which imo means us three should focus more on the rest of the playerlist
I’m considering volunteering for this day’s lynch and leading tomorrow’s lynch today tbh but it also just feels wrong to let myself be lynched on purpose for obvious reasons
Still, let’s sort that {idk they’re scummy} group

[Irrelephant11]

I mean my readslist should show I have you near the top of my reads

Does this mean you’ve decided I’m town? That’s sort of a weird appeal if you think I’m scum and I’d lost track of your read on me

[Irrelephant11]

Do you think that makes Fus scum or do you think scum just took his reads as pretty representative of town

[Irrelephant11]

That defense isn't sitting all that well with me.

What is this referring to

Also I agree I shouldn’t be townread for suggesting my own lynch. I don’t think I’ve done it before as scum and I have done it before as town but it’s also something I’m very aware of
I mean maybe you should townread me for it, it would help you read me correctly if you did, but

[Irrelephant11]

Who is tring auro and why again?

I am!

Activity, reasonableness, tone, multiple towny moments
Are you scumreading him? I’d be fascinated to hear more

[Irrelephant11]

Hmmm Shoshin have you meta dived Auro yet

[Irrelephant11]

What a fun way to say that occam’s razor would tell you we’re not scum partners

[Irrelephant11]

Here’s where I’m at (because readslist only shows part of this thought process)

Shoshin is town and has narrowed scum down to a group of four, 2-3 of which are scum imo (take your pick of a talented scum player like me or Auro for the third one if she’s wrong)

or

Shoshin is scum and has “narrowed down” scum to a group of four, 0-1 of which are scum imo, and scum have really split town and ruined some townies’ reputations. Team in this scenario would be like... Shoshin/Auro/Vedith or something

Occam’s razor says it’s the first and in that case I do sorta feel like I’m a better lynch than Shoshin because she’s a better scumhunter than I am
OTOH it would be nice to know Shoshin’s alignment
OTOH I should probably just ISO some players and put in the work to eliminate one of these options

[Irrelephant11]

Hmmm
Why Shoshin over Volxen, Vedith?

[Irrelephant11]

Never mind I misread the last page

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: volxen

[Irrelephant11]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

how

Like Fuscosco is aware of the thought process that went on in picking the nominations. It's a weak feeling, but it's there.

I can see that

Asking for time is shit and her constantly gloating that she is a good townie while not being a good townie and playing absolutely shit is AI

Assume for a second her PoE is absolutely correct and you’re the townie inside it. Do you still dislike her play?

[Irrelephant11]

Lol

[Irrelephant11]

Basically: If she’s objectively a strong scumhunter, and she has about the same amount of scum equity as, say, me, why vote her? That’s why I’m asking; you’re not acknowledging her strength at scumhunting

But now I just kinda think you’re scum, there was no reason to respond that aggressively, trying to discredit me in my defense of Shoshin
Like if you don’t see why a townie would ask the question I asked, vote me

[Irrelephant11]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

[Irrelephant11]

Meanwhile, scrolling through Shoshin’s ISO and all I can see is half of her iso being “what do you think about this, RC?” followed by naked votes without explanations

Also this is generally NAI playstyle from Shoshin
Though I’d like to see her go a little deeper than she has been lately

[Irrelephant11]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

You asked her if I still disliked her player. I said yes.

If I know for sure she is town and all you are doing is sheeping her, sure we should lynch you over shoshin mechanically.

The reality is she is probably scum here and I need to get her lynched.

The question is shit because it's giving a hypothetical situation that doesn't really apply to the reality.

But it does apply

I’m not asking “what if Shoshin were scumreading different players” or something
I’m saying that you’re objectively wrong about her being a bad town player if her reads are entirely right, regardless of whether or not she’s playing in a way that makes you like her and want to vote with her
If her reads are wrong, yeah she’s either bad town or scum.
Please do point out which 2-3 of vedith/clennis(?)/Fuscosco are town, so I can read Shoshin the way you are

[Irrelephant11]

Man it’s such a weird feeling how well you can predict things about me
Like I’ve never even thought twice about which of you/RC I’d rather lose to as scum but without you saying something about it you’re probably right that’s how that would go

Anyway Shoshin’s town
Sorry I paranoia’d you for so long

[Irrelephant11]

I’ve considered self voting multiple times
Why is it scummy in this situation

[Irrelephant11]

Only three players can be lynched and we all think we’re all town

[Irrelephant11]

I don't think scum would risk wasting their nomination on themselves, so we are essentially picking the "Nightkill."

Question to nominees (sorry if this has been asked before): Who would you want lynched D3 if you were lynched? Who would you want lynched D3 if you were NOT lynched?

I want your slot lynched probably, or fusc maybe
And if either of the other slots flips town, that wouldn’t change
If one of them flips scum, everything would probably change for me so idrk

[Irrelephant11]

I would like to hear more from volxen on his reads and who he wants lynched before we hammer him

Does everyone feel confident at this point that Shoshin is town? Or is anyone scumreading her? I at least now feel confident she’s not scum with Auro

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I’m personally voting volxen over myself because he’s the most likely of the three of us to be scum imo
But I won’t really fight off my own lynch here either (though I recognize that’s sort of AtE-y, which I guess is sort of unavoidable here?)

I think it’s possible scum!volxen thought he could succeed in getting town to see {me, Auro} as a scumpool and, failing that, out-town you. I also find the silence around his self-vote a little confusing (though not really that scummy)

I don’t think anyone has really addressed my “why am I so widely townread” question from earlier, though, come to think of it
@DT, @vedith, @alonzo
What’s towny about me?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean
It’s not a rhetorical question. Why were you voting volxen before?

[Irrelephant11]

Who’s scum besides Clemslot, Alonzo?

[Irrelephant11]

Does anyone think there’s scum to lynch this phase?

[Irrelephant11]

irrel, i answered why i thought you were town like 4 times

I’ll be honest I don’t remember this but I believe you and will reread it

honestly you constantly asking why people town read me doesn't feel good to me

That’s fair I guess? But like I’m just in general feeling like I’m getting tons of townreads and most people haven’t explained why, which makes me feel like it’s because I have bad reads and scum don’t mind me living. If I knew more of the “why”s I could discern if this is true or not

[Irrelephant11]

AtE when he was getting a lot of town reads and really upped his game from d1? i dont get it

He voted himself to L1. He's not going to AtE when at L1...

He voted himself to L-2 I thought

[Irrelephant11]

Irrelephant had a lot of posts that I felt like he was trying to relax the thread from going into turmoil when me/RC/shoshin were fighting. When he could have exploited the chaos, he focused a lot on trying to form town blocs which is townie. and her constant questioning all seemed townie and i can see where her reads come from. if you want, i can probably quote specific posts, i am just trying to do actual work atm

Irrel's post about himself realizing 'he's not good at reading and often sheeps people like shoshin' felt pretty genuine, and it looked like he was trying to really determine shoshin's alignment to see if they can sheep them or not. i pointed it out, and they didnt' feel "embarassed" by the approach which i also gave town credit for

auro's reaction to my scum case on you felt townie at the time, which was funny because it was relative to RC who also had a similar reaction to it. I thought RC was highly likely scum at the time and didn't think auro, if he is team with RC, would buddy up that obviously in the thread. i also don't see too much scum agenda installed in his posting. he is not trying to 'mislynch' anyone in bad faith as far as i can tell.

i prob should revisit both, especially auro, whom I haven't paid too much attention bc of RC/shoshin/etc, but yeah.

Oh wow I don’t remember this post at all
Feels actually very towny imo
Actually DT’s ISO is much townier than I remembered I think in the moment I get annoyed by interacting with him but the analysis and good thoughts are there

[Irrelephant11]

That’s good

[Irrelephant11]

That’s good

[Irrelephant11]

I think vedith might be town?
I would find it scummy if he were working hard to convince everyone that one of the three nominees has to be scum (because I disagree)
I also find it sorta ~weird~ that most of the playerlist has stopped acting like any of the three of us might be scum, which imo means we’re either all town (and scum don’t have motivation to try to scumpaint any of us) or scum!shoshin is confident she’s not getting lynched - I think it’s probably the former, though the latter is theoretically possible.

Given I think we’re all town, though, I like that vedith is just sorta trying to sort us three for potential scum, and that that’s why his vote is where it is. I could see how from another point of view it’s odd he’s not voting me given how we’ve collectively talked about my scumgame, but fmpov it’s towny of him to keep sorting and voting who he thinks has scum equity

[Irrelephant11]

Wait I’m running out of scumreads

[Irrelephant11]

Fus/Chennis/??

[Irrelephant11]

Eh maybe I’m too quick to townread Vedith here he’s not showing a ton of effort either and he happens to be voting the player who’s most focused on him

Pedit: because I know I’m town and it seems like things slowed down when volxen became the lead wagon

[Irrelephant11]

If we’re all town
Keep Shoshin
Pick whichever of me/Volxen you want. I’m honestly not sure which of us is a better townie tbh
Some players will have more paranoia about me so I’d understand me being the lynch
OTOH some players are having an easier time townreading me and I’m not here to tell them they’re *wrong* to do so

[Irrelephant11]

I think she also has unique ways of sorting that catch most scum off guard, which when explained allow all players an easier time sorting. She’s also pretty difficult to mislynch which can be a town strength

But yes the primary reason is her reads, which has been borne out across many games

[Irrelephant11]

I townread you both and refuse to lynch one of you to settle this personality difference.
Shoshin, his ISO does have some good reads and thoughts currently, so I disagree that it appears he has none
DT, could you post a full readslist real quick? That would honestly be helpful to me personally

I think both of you are more than capable of getting along and if you aren’t, just spoil all your posts and promise not to read each other’s or something. I doubt either of you are getting lynched soon so breathe in, breathe out, and find scum

Hi Vedith

[Irrelephant11]

can it be this easy shoshin/dennis/scum reading

Why not Vedith in the world where shoshin’s scum

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin our of curiosity have you read my scum loss?

@SR If by going in circles we get two innocent children out of this game phase that feels worth it to me

[Irrelephant11]

@volxen I’ve always correctly townread Shoshin when she is town, and almost always have her as my strongest townread. This is the first time we’re playing together since she crushed it as 3p, which is why things have gone differently this time around

I do townread her now though, and she is currently my strongest townread I think
I’ll get back to you on the why, I need to check something from our previous game

[Irrelephant11]

Okay so let me just get real honest and say that I’d very much like Shoshin to be town here and of anyone on this site she’s probably the most capable of pocketing me
I’m going to spend the next 24 hours examining if I think that has happened
Regardless if she flips town we’re 100% following the directions she gave for who to lynch when (though I’d love more explanation about SR, Shoshin)

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel, promise me that if we're in LYLO together that you don't hammer until I've voted.

RC's better scum than me, Irrel. And my play looks nothing like my play as scum. I'm not pocketing anyone at all.

That's an important promise to me because of that game where I was locktown in LYLO with you and you jumped the gun before I had a chance to vote.

I'm never voting you, Irrel.

So here’s a minor pocketing moment. Shoshin brings up a past game and tells me I’m locktown (a read she still hasn’t fully explained, and which she has dropped at what could be seen as convenient times). Shoshin is like a deeper explanation on what made you say you’d never vote me.

Also as 3p she also did this “remember that one game we played together? Good times” thing and I don’t remember town!her ever doing this without using it to sort, which I don’t really see happening here?

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin I’d like*

[Irrelephant11]

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

This is the other thing that has been bothering me. Shoshin did this to [what happened to be amazing scum in the end] early town leader TW. She did the same to me D1 here. I can’t find what game she said it in, but I do remember Shoshin once saying that if she ever rolls scum her plan is to insist she deserves townreads and act incredulous when anyone doesn’t townread her. I see tons of that in Starcraft Mafia in retrospect, certainly a lot less here but still quite a bit. I can’t tell if its to an extent that it’s AI this game, though.

Keeping in mind that as I say all of this I still find Shoshin’s aggressive scum hunting this game to be towny on its own and also similar to her town meta. I’m mostly concerned with the possibility that her scumgame is fantastic. I have read her first scumgame and it’s terrible, which is what’s given me the confidence to townread her easily in other games. But idk if I should look at her recent 3P game as more representative of her scumgame - at the very least, she has had some posts that remind me of her 3P tactic to garner townreads.

Pedit: oh

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like you should townread me more than RC, Irrel.

[Irrelephant11]

Which is not word for word the same, but functionally means the same based on the readslist I had just shared

[Irrelephant11]

At post 863, Irrel.

Extremely fair point

At post 863, Irrel. And not even saying you should townread me, just that I expected more paranoia from you about RC.

I had plenty of RC paranoia... most readslists I share tend to mean “this is what I’m most confident in, but like maybe you should flip it upside down”

Anyway. Yeah, the earlyness of your request to tw in Starcraft Mafia is a good point.

Alright, I think I’m over my paranoia. And I think I’m closer to being able to read you correctly in the future, knowing what you’re capable of. Maybe

Next up, the case for town!shoshin

[Irrelephant11]

as an aside, I’m roughly 94% sure we’re all town here. And while my pre-game thought was that if I rolled scum I would probably do this very thing (nom three towns), in practice it seems very helpful to town tbh. Of course, that’s assuming I’m right about us all being town I guess

[Irrelephant11]

A town case:

1. Meta

As a matter of comparison, here's my my most recent scum game (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970). It doesn't take a lot to see the differences there.

My priority as scum was to manipulate the most influential townies in the game (e.g. Irrel, the worst, Nauci, etc.) into townreading me. I did this by actively townreading them as quickly as possible, questioning them for not townreading me, and exclusively attacking players who questioned my towniness. I normalized my towniness as quickly as possible so that I eventually became the most townread player in the game. I was unlynchable at all points of that game.

In short, I behaved in ways that I predicted would get me townread. I never alienated anyone. I didn't take risks. I didn't use WIFOM. I played a simple game of manipulation.

In this game, I didn't try manipulating the most influential players into townreading me. On the contrary, I spent the early parts of this game trying to sort the strongest scum players: Irrel, Auro, & RC. Rather than manipulate these players into townreading me, I relentlessly tested their reactions while trying to sort. I knew this wouldn't help me get townread but I thought sorting these players ASAP was more important than having them townread me, at least in the short term.

a. Irrel

I voted Irrel for reasons that I knew would alienate a number of players, especially the bit about how he prefers scum. I was testing reactions so that I could sort Irrel as well as others around him.

Irrel knows that I know he prefers scum, so I knew Irrel would understand why I was voting him, at least to some extent. I predicted that town Irrel wouldn't let paranoia fester about me -- he's clear up my vote for those who didn't understand -- whereas scum Irrel would let the paranoia fester to potentially set up my mislynch.

This is how I sort Irrel in most of my games (e.g. is he allowing paranoia to fester when he could easily clear it up based on his meta knowledge?). And I can point to previous town games where I've townread Irrel based on the way he prevents paranoia from festering, so if you need further meta evidence that this is how I approach sorting Irrelephant (with 100% accuracy so far over multiple games), that can be provided as well.

As scum, I never approach the game by testing reactions because it's too risky. There's no reason for me to unnecessarily attract suspicion of others (including Irrel), or to create a situation where paranoia about me could arise in the first place, when I easily could have easily manipulated Irrel into townreading without attracting any suspicion or doing any actual scumhunting.

If I were scum, it would have been very easy for me to say nothing about Irrel's alignment, or to townread him. The fact I didn't do those things is strongly town indicative for me.

b. Auro

I slightly ignored Auro's questioning at the start of this game to test his reactions. He doesn't know me so I expected to receive flak from him. I also knew his questions would eventually be cleared up without any problem, and I believed town Auro would quickly reevaluate my alignment if he were to scumread me at first.

As a result of my test, Auro engaged a strong line of questioning on me that was one of the towniest things in the game. His push was especially towny because he felt so unconcerned about addressing my concerns about him & almost exclusively focused on trying to understand my thought process. His lack of self-concern in that push is part of why I'm locktown on Auro.

I don't engage this sort of subtle testing as scum because it unnecessarily attracts suspicion without any upside. Auro didn't leave that conversation townreading. On the contrary, he left it with lots of paranoia about my slot, paranoia that I let sit for the moment because again I wasn't worried about my appearance. The upside of my initial play around Auro is that I was able to townread one of the strongest scum players in the game.

This is something I exclusively do as town, not as scum. I never alienate a player like Auro as scum, especially when I predict that Auro would push me in precisely the way he did. My goal as scum isn't to be pushed because, again, I don't take risks as scum. I do things that have predictable responses (from my perspective), and those predicted responses are myself being townread.

c. RC

This is the biggest one. I never vote or push RC in any manner on D1 if I'm scum, straight-up never. I keep calling him town until LYLO. This is the biggest town tell for me, although you probably won't understand it if you don't know our history.

If I were scum, I relentlessly defend RC throughout the game because doing so causes RC to keep me alive. RC struggles with surviving, so if there's someone keeping him alive, he'll keep that person alive even if the player might be scum. And, in my case, it's especially the case because RC really really doesn't want to mislynch me. He'd feel too bad about it. As long as I defend RC, RC never pushes my lynch unless he's absolutely certain I'm scum, meaning he keeps me alive until LYLO.

As far as I'm concerned, my win condition as scum against RC is bringing him to LYLO and then mislynching him with the argument that he's godtier scum who got inside my head. I don't see myself losing in this circumstance with this player list, especially given Irrel's paranoia of scum RC. Plus, I think Irrel would prefer losing to scum me over scum RC. This would be much easier than trying to fake genuine attempts to actually sort RC, which as you've seen in this game, don't necessarily cause RC to townread me.

--

There's another massive difference between my play here and my play as scum: the way I interacted with Wazoo.

As scum, I don't keep interacting with a known mislynch, continuously trying to sort them. Look at how I interact with the mislynches in Starcraft. I occasionally made cases and then ignored the lynches until they died. I didn't show any genuine interest in their thought process, nor did I give them any chances to prove to me they were town.

But in this game, I kept trying to give Wazoo a chance. I read through his games (something I'm very unlikely to do as scum), kept trying to understand his reasoning, rereading this game to see if what he was saying made any sense. I never do this unnecessary stuff as scum, especially since I'd be worried that the more I interacted with Wazoo, the more I'd betray my informed perspective about his alignment.

3. Nominations

If I were scum in this game, I never nominate myself.

For starters, RC replaced out of the game calling me scum, so if I were actually scum, I would have been scared shitless that the townies would sheep him. I'd especially be worried about it because of how much flak I received on D1 from multiple players:

DT votes me regardless of what happens.

Fusco votes me because I called him scum.

SR votes me because I called explanations scummy and because he's misreading me based on stylistic differences (as well just mistaking wordiness for content when that's not the case).

Irrel votes me because he sheeps obvtown RC.

Auro votes me because I potentially alienated him yesterday.

Clemency votes me because he's a troll who maybe sheeps RC.

RC's replacement votes me because he's sheeping RC.

You get the point. If I'm scum, why would I take this risk? What's the upside? Do I suddenly become confirmed if I survive the nomination phase? No, there's no upside. I never take this risk as scum.

That said, even if I were to nominate myself as scum, I do so only with players who I reasonably could survive against. In other words, I'm not putting myself against Irrel/Volx. That's like flipping a coin. It's suicide as scum, something I'd never do.

Who do I take with me if I'm scum? I take the townie from the group of DT, Clemency, Fusco, Vedith. I might take SR. I might take one of Irrel/Volx but not both. I create an environment where my chances of survival are better than just flipping a coin.

Again, I don't play a WIFOM game as scum. And my scum meta bears that out. I win games as scum by taking minimal risks while manipulating players into townreading me with strong day play. If I'm scum in this game, I never nominate myself. It's an extraordinary risk with no reward.

For starters, this is all accurate self-meta up until this point. Obviously Shoshin is showing an awareness of her own history, so it’s possible she has found a brand new way to play scum that’s completely stellar and mind blowing. Anything’s *possible*. But I don’t find it very likely, and more than that: I don’t think she’d pull it off to this extent.

Some town markers for Shoshin she has displayed here that I think are hard to fake:
-Anger at RC for scumreading her and “being a dick” (only invalid if both are scum)
-A willingness to get into arguments, some of which she isn’t even really invested in, as a risky (for scum) way of sorting other players
-A scumpool that makes a lot of sense
-A slowness to townread strong scum players (makes sense for a townie) who probably wouldn’t notice if she got to a townread much quicker (which would have made more sense for her to do as scum)
-Being nominated against me with no guarantee that, given my paranoia of her from our last game, I wouldn’t push her lynch
-An opaqueness of reads for long periods of time, followed up by reads that make sense and explain the long period of being difficult to understand
-Ignoring questions (actually closer to NAI, but only because I think she knows she has to fake this as scum)
-Emotionality I think scum!her would be more reticent to explore

Some scum markers for Shoshin:
-sometimes I think she’s pocketing me
-sometimes I think she’s trying to mislynch me this phase so I can’t catch her out

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t care who gets lynched at this rate
Everyone take your pick tbh
I’ll work hard to follow through with Shoshin’s plan if she flips town
I’m fine being lynched here
Volxen kinda didn’t respond to a few questions people asked him I think but idk