Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Dannflor]

Sup y'all! I'll try to read tonight, can't promise I'll get any posts in before tomorrow though

UNVOTE:

I realize it's only D1 but are there any funky events/wagons/points-of-interest that have happened that could be useful to keep in mind when reading from the beginning?

[Dannflor]

we're lynching scum grapes and he spewed you his buddy

Show me where he did this?

[Dannflor]

I'm only ~10 pages into the game + keeping up with what's happened since my replace in, and here are my thoughts so far:

Eagle is town, I can case this later but I think it would require a really good scum player to be playing "awkward townie" at this level and I just don't feel that in his posts.

Bujaber probably also town? His play is similar to what I know about his town play and I know from personal experience that scum!Bu trying to imitate his town game comes across much more forced than this.

I would say that despite the weird beginning to the game I'm pretty sure there can be scum caught there. Eagle's RQS entrance would have been a magnet for scum players looking for an easy way to get posting, look townie, and blend in. The amount of meming early game makes it harder to sort that, but based on those responses and gut I'd rate FA or Gamma as most likely candidates there. Probably a stage of the game I'll revisit later, even if it doesn't give me strong scum reads rnow.

Don't have too much of an opinion on anyone else yet. Sorry I haven't read much yet, will try to make more progress this afternoon, but wanted to peek in with thoughts and engage real time.

Grapes

, gonna need you to walk me through your vote on Eagle. Is it just that his vote on you seemed bad? Or do you actually think he's scummy? If so, why?

[Dannflor]

My read on Buj also comes from his recent posts since I've replaced in, admittedly not much but *shrug*

The thing with Buj is that he has a very distinctive way of thinking about the game in his logic (see #1371) that has a very "try-hard town" feel to it. My experience with him is his scum game trying to emulate that style. Comparatively, his analysis here doesn't feel as forced but still fits the same vibe I would associate with town!Buj.

[Dannflor]

Probably Scum buddy trying to cover for another.

nah I hard bus my scum buddies \o/

[Dannflor]

Grapes might be scum just for his Eagle vote, though I'm lacking any other context to his wagon

Lycan probably town for hammering regardless of the flip?

[Dannflor]

Question, what reads did people have on DT before he replaced out? Like where is the perception of my slot generally this game ignoring replacement shenanigans

[Dannflor]

Full disclosure, I have no idea why we lynched grapes.

Even before I caught up with the game, I would have lynched him just for #1353.

In this post he:

- Forces an awkward transition from Buj to Eagle

- Gives unsubstantiated town reads to three of the people pushing him

- Ignores the

actual

worst vote on his own wagon

#####

Side note: If anyone still didn't think Jingle was obv town the above post should convince you. Scum would be milking all the town cred they could get out of being on their buddy's wagon, especially considering this game has 3 scum and one of them dropped Day 1. Scums are in a bad spot. If a scum bussed here (which I think is possible), they did so to set themselves up in a better position later. Jingle is actively working against this scum win condition.

[Dannflor]

If Dannflor leads on scum, Dannflor is scum.

I've lead lynches on scum more than once as town.

[Dannflor]

What is the worst vote on grapes' wagon, you might ask? I'll give you a hint, it's not Clemency's.

Okay, I looked through some of Grapes games. I understand the wagon now.

VOTE: Grapes

No one mentioned grapes' meta as a reason for the wagon if I remember correctly. Why would his meta then help Shoshin understand the wagon if no one stated it as a reason for voting? This is a manufactured reason to jump on the wagon while trying to look smooth. It's important she doesn't look too awkward doing this especially because she's late on the wagon.

This happens like every game feels like; starting to wonder if it's me. :p
Anyway I rushed a little bit but I'm pretty up to speed now.

Jingle at least trying to dig that far into eagle's vedith tunnel isn't something you see from scum too much[glad he did because it really brought to light how contrived it turned out to be in spots like; nitpick the read. Why are you holding vedith of all people to this impossibly high standard where everything they're doing needs to be 100% telegraphed?

eagles also the worst vote on my wagon ; runner up is ali



Rei is town.
Prince is town.

shoshin... meh? gotta be honest this read is up and down every other page feels like and id almost flip it for that reason alone

VOTE: eagle

Then we have this. Flailing town reads on Rei and Prince in a desperate attempt to pocket and survive and a weird read on Jingle that's mostly just there so he can propel himself onto Eagle and look like he's doing something.

Null reads from scum are most likely to be other scums in my experience. This instance is especially weird because he says he'd almost like to flip the Shoshin slot right before voting somewhere else.

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

What do you think of this, Grapes?

mmm

pretty horrible

but who in the entire universe CAN'T you snipquote really

Like idunno call me crazy I'm starting to agree with ved on this

can kinda just feel the dislike on both ends

let's kill that quick; let's all love eachother and have funs playing the mafias

Earlier associations are pretty bad too. Grapes goes from shading Shoshin randomly to quickle sheeping Vedith on calling DT vs. Shoshin TvT. Yucky.

If there was a bus on grapes, Shoshin is most likely it.

Alisae is possible as well, but I town read the entire rest of the wagon. Which is a pretty solid fucking town block.

[Dannflor]

last scum is in here

Not Voting (3): Gamma Emerald(18), Dannflor(155), Karmeleon(33)

You don't think Vedith is possible at all anymore?

[Dannflor]

I keep going back and forth on Vedith. I was prepared to have him in my solve but I keep wavering every time I go back over his ISO.

From what I know about scum!Vedith, he's not scared of open wolfing and hard defending a scum buddy Day 1 or interfering with the lynch. He doesn't do that here so much, but I do find posts like "Someone go over the Grapes wagon for me." pretty bad and how I would expect Vedith to approach his buddy being wagoned so quickly. That phrase is like the classic way to give yourself a way onto the wagon by putting the onus entirely on someone else, and at the same time hopefully slowing it down a bit. I'd also expect town!Vedith to be more critical of #1353, but maybe he's just caught in the Buj tunnel?

If Alisae is scum, I think Vedith scum becomes more likely because of this:

Alisae Scum on a BuJ scum flip.

Mostly down to the fact that I town read Buj pretty strongly, and his interactions with Alisae in this part of the game don't read genuine to me. Reads as Vedith setting Alisae up as a town read after he gets a mislynch on Buj.

On the other hand, I find Vedith's whole play style and the way he's been poking people in this game specifically fairly proactive and towny. I do think Vedith is a strong scum player though so I have some general paranoia towards him. When it's not 2am I'll maybe go over his ISO again and try to figure out if I my town vibes from him are concrete or not.

[Dannflor]

So...

Jingle is town.
Eagle is town.
Rei is town.
Prince is town.

Buj is probably town.
Clemency is probably town.
Lycan is probably town.

DrDoLittle might be town.

Vedith ??? (I'm determined to read him accurately this game)

Alisae might be scum.
Shoshin might be scum.

Xtoxm oh yea he exists who knows

Gamma doesn't exist he could be scum if I'm wrong elsewhere
Karmeleon exists I guess
mcqueen idk

I guess ideally we lynch Alisae, if she flips town we go > Shoshin, if she flips scum we go > Vedith.

Shoshin and Alisae aren't scum together don't think

Doubt there's many/any people who would agree with that plan though.

[Dannflor]

I'll memelynch myself day 3 but I'm sheeping Prince until he dies.

VOTE: Lycan
tbh now that I think about it I think they think that their hammer was scummy and its lolcatty but I'm bad at mafia so please ignore me

I thought you were sheeping Prince, what's up?

What makes the hammer scummy? Does it read manufactured to you?

Why are you so unconfident here?

[Dannflor]

Not gonna vote yet until I've nailed down a few more of my reads with greater certainty and until the day progresses a bit. (Also sleeping after reading this whole game in one sitting might help me sort somethings out)

Vedith, who is scum with Buj? You kinda reactively called me a buddy to him despite the fact you town read DT before hand. If Alisae flips scum does that make Buj more likely scum to you? What do you think of other players? omg wait ACTUALLY can I get a rainbow reads list plz and ty?

[Dannflor]

Jingle, reasoning on DDL?

sorry for spamming guys I sleep now

[Dannflor]

Clemency is probably town.
Lycan is probably town.

Why are these town?

I guess Clemency *could* be scum, and I probably shouldn't have him so high on my town list. My gut just tries to eat itself alive every time I put him lower, though.

It's mostly down to the same reason I think Jingle is almost conf town, albeit not to the same extent.

Clemency and Lycan were the last two votes on the wagon. I believe in that situation scum is going to want to get a lot out of voting their buddy. Especially since the wagon was at a point where it was clear this could be the lynch, there's no reason to not try and squeeze town cred off of it. An "accidental hammer" and a "yeet" meme vote doesn't really accomplish this. Particularly in Lycan's case, I think purposefully hammering would look better for him later in the game, especially since there were some lingering concerns about the speed of the wagon meaning it might not go through 100%.

All this reasoning is why I kinda think yours is the worst one on the wagon. It's the only one that tried to look like a "legit" vote with solid reasoning and it reads manufactured to me.

There was also some stuff that town pinged me in Lycan's ISO, I'll find them later.

[Dannflor]

No rainbow read for you yet! Although I'll be sure to give one before day ends

hype

btw does anyone have a read on Karmeleon? if so, how'd you get it?

[Dannflor]

I feel really comfortable saying the last two are in here: Vedith/Alisae/Shoshin/Clem/Gamma

Raise your hand if you disagree

Eh... That sort of solve makes me queasy because it feels too easy and there's virtually no resistance to the direction of the game right now?

It feels like the scum have given up already.

Maybe this is true... but also I'm not ready to be super comfortable in lock towning everyone outside that pool.

I think there's probably a fair amount of people who can be lock towned or close to it though, so that's what I'm gonna spend my day phase sorting through and trying to do I think.

[Dannflor]

Vedith what do you think about the interactions between grapes and Buj?

[Dannflor]

You wanna see the reason I'm scumreading him?

Yes.

You're paranoid.

[Dannflor]

Grapes wagon is just eh.

Grapes wagon is just eh.

Is your problem with it Grapes or the people voting Grapes?

Grapes. Like hes not obv town but there are much better lunches in the horizon. Plus the speed that the wagon developed smells a bit opportunistic, like people wanting off attn on Buj

Defending grapes by pushing elsewhere, not defending grapes, btw.

Vedith does the same thing.

Someone go over the Grapes wagon for me.

I think vedith doesn't deserve townreads yet. He can obvtown and hasn't posted enough yet to do that so y'all want to explain the tow reads?

This is the first thing I've liked from you and I suspect there's Scum somewhere town reading me.
BuJ still Scum here I think though.

Why was the wagon dropped?

Ok. Thought as much but wanted to make sure.

Why is Grapes a good vote?

[Dannflor]

Sleep well all of you wonderful people \o/
You too Grapes.

Sleep well all of you wonderful people \o/
You too Grapes.

Love you too vedith

Pop Quiz: Is this interaction S/S?

Does a scum!Vedith initiate this joke interaction with his buddy despite not interacting with him directly all game before then?

I feel like logically the answer should be no

[Dannflor]

Meanwhile, I read grapes posts during the night phase and I think it no longer makes sense for me to scumread Shoshin until something happens.

I missed this earlier. Can you elaborate?

What's your read on Dann?

What's your read on me?

[Dannflor]

Why did I have DDL as maybe town? Honestly no idea

Is this entire game just shitposting

in your opinion, does scum shitpost more or town?

How is this supposed to help you sort Gamma?

Anyways I'm voting from folks off the grapes wagon today. Hammer came too fast and I think scum could possibly hope for wiggling out of getting grapes lynched

You should actually vote for someone if this is what you think then, especially considering the primary wagon rnow is someone who was on the grapes wagon.

You only have 6 options excluding yourself...

Spoiler: Cha-ching, v3

============
Sorted Town
============
DoubtingThomas
Jingle
Extrapolated Eagle
Vedith
Karmeleon
DrDolittle
PvtUrist (PoR)
NerfedBuJ
mcqueen
Alisae
Xtoxm
Lycanfire

============
Leftovers
============
Clemency
Gamma Emerald
grapes
Shoshin

I'm not too offended by the readlist. Are the town chaching ordered or nah

But you mostly agree with this reads list?

Which means your primary suspect is Gamma today? Give me a reads list of your own.

VOTE: DDL

[Dannflor]

Lemme throw it out there that while Eagles play is bad i think its bad town and anyone voting him is looking scummy rn. Yes you grapes

Mcqueen can be town for this post by the way

[Dannflor]

dann you're an eager beaver. I haven't had time to really read since daybreak. just offering some thoughts. I do think scum is off the wagon tho. My scum read on Buj is faded. I don't really see why my primary suspect is gamma? Did I say it was? Is it cause gamma = intersection(not on grapes wagon, scum from rei)?

You're not about to get turbo lynched with the pressure on Alisae, and I like to make my vote useful. Am I really that eager if you admit you'd be pushing yourself in my shoes?

And yea Gamma is the one scum in that reads list you said you agreed with that is in that intersection.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Dannflor

Feel more surer here. No opposed to bear lynching though, if that's the way the wind blows.

I swear every time a town player tunnels town!me they also absolutely refuse to engage with me and it's the most frustrating thing in the world

flashbacks to PvT in Merchant's Dance

why am I scum?

[Dannflor]

You should probably read a town game of mine if that's a major factor.
I don't understand how my point on who scum might be on the wagon is bad. Do you have problems with the logic?
That wasn't me handwaving, that was me... trying to engage with you on it. The DDL thing was icky, but I felt like Vedith was doing the same thing and yet you ignored it.

I'm not necessarily trying to get you to change your read, I'm mostly just trying to see your thought processes on how you got to where you are on me because it helps me sort. I already think you're pretty heavily town but I can't just write your slot off particularly if you think I'm scum.

Your suspicion of me stems from No Deadlines which... UGH

Let's just say you're not the first player to continually shade my town game because of that game

[Dannflor]

Could you look at the Vedith stuff I highlighted above and tell me what you think? That was mostly just me stream-of-consciousnessing and I was hoping people would interact with my thoughts there because I keep second guessing myself all over the place on Vedith

[Dannflor]

Your suspicion of me stems from No Deadlines which... UGH

Let's just say you're not the first player to continually shade my town game because of that game

I do think this paranoia stems from town more than scum though

swear to GOD I'm not trying to pocket you

[Dannflor]

Vedith strongly pushes Buj as an alternative in between there though, same as DDL? It's less overt but it's the same action.

I know you didn't think so. I'm just saying my catch up there isn't far off from what my town catch up would've been

I think Shoshin/Vedith is a possible team but I'm feeling less sure about Vedith now. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 1 scum in the lurkers like xtoxm/Karmeleon/Gamma, but I wouldn't look there first. Alisae has potential but I don't understand why she was the defacto wagon today nor why it built so quickly. Prince calling her town has me doubting too because I will sheep him.

If I'm wrong about any of my town reads it's Clemency/Lycan, but I'd probably lynch in the lurkers before here.

[Dannflor]

Yea I do think if I'm scum replacing in here I immediately vote grapes every time, but it doesn't matter too much

as long as Jingle's read on me doesn't stop him engaging with my thoughts/taking me seriously then we're all good

[Dannflor]

Lycan, who are the scums?

(btw I don't think there is a real case on Alisae it's just a lot of ppl going "yea I guess I could see that")

[Dannflor]

Hm if EE is scum, his buddy is one of his scum reads - most likely someone he's hard pushing imo

I wanna go back and see if Shoshin and EE makes sense as a team

[Dannflor]

How much time does Shoshin get to do something? I'm worried a lynch on her wouldn't actually go through later in the game

[Dannflor]

The story behind Elyse is that I caught her, called her scum, and pushed her, but she was buddying some of other more prominent members of town, who decided that I was probably scum for scumreading her. (I mean I haven't read the game in a while, but it was a really emotional game for me, I still have dreams about it and stuff so it's possible I'm getting some of the facts wrong, but close enough). Anyways, I called Elyse scum and was pushing her. TSO and Titus didn't believe me, TSO went head to head with me for a long period of day 4. Being as involved as I was (I had the second highest postcount including some of the walliest posts in the game and I was posting on my phone exclusively), I didn't respond in a particularly emotionally stable manner. I fell prey to my inferior emotions and tried to gladiate TSO. We yelled at each other for a bit, I tried to replace out and thought better of it (I know, I'm sorry, I'm a terrible person), and then I thought about everything and pushed Elyse again. Elyse won the game in Lylo because she had TSO so deep pocketed and because I lost my head and couldn't keep it on straight. Anyways I asked him if he remembered Elyse because I'm always thinking about You Could Be Anyone IV. If my memory serves me right, that was some of the best town game I've ever had (I had solid reads that game, IIRC) and I'm relatively proud of everything up until the day when I pushed my own lynch, frustrated, and hoping people would sheep my reads after I was dead. Some day I'll play a game of mafia that surpasses YCBA IV and I'll feel redeemed for my actions.

So I kinda forgot the game was happening, but I've played this setup a couple times in sitechat before...

[Dannflor]

Gut reaction I want to scum read EE's over explainy grapes thing and white knight of me, but it fits his try hard play style all game that I think is too genuine to come from scum. I also don't think this game is really within Enter's scum range (no offense) from what I've seen.

I guess I understand the argument of "if EE is scum we lose," and Prince if you're extremely confident that lynch and following your PoE will give us the best chances of winning I'll sheep you there. I'm just concerned that once you're gone your town block won't be untouchable (as seen already with the Alisae wagon) and that lynching a likely town EE will destroy what (semi) consensus town bloc we have.

[Dannflor]

Jingle's read on me is fine, I don't really fault his reasoning and I don't think it's a productive use of my time right now to argue about

Also scum is probably more likely to town read me here just because it's an easy read to have and I haven't been particularly decisive or threatening with my reads yet unfortunately

[Dannflor]

Dann
if your that worried I'll pick up the slack day 3.
Glueing people and trying to get people working together is honestly what I thrive and and I'll probably be re-motivated to play then since I have to make sure people don't disregard what Prince says after he dies.

can you avoid a meme lynch after he dies?

[Dannflor]

I wanna go back and see if Shoshin and EE makes sense as a team

I did this and at least from EE's POV I don't think this is possible

[Dannflor]

I want to talk about Vedith and have people convince me he is town

I've said a lot about Vedith, any comments on my thoughts there?

Why do you think he's scum?

[Dannflor]

My mafia career in one sentence:

EE, that last post just turned into a rambling thing I don't understand.

Oh ok you were town that game

I was wondering if that ramble-post was a scum tell of yours but I guess it's just an Enter tell

[Dannflor]

Gamma Emerald immediately comes to mind

How do you have such a confident read on her?

[Dannflor]

actually I looked and it's just lean town, regardless

I couldn't get any read on her

[Dannflor]

I'm of course biased but I think DT was towny enough that my slot should be fine. Obviously that changes though if core town members like you and Jingle think I should go, I'm definitely not lylo material in that case, and it might be too late for me to ever by lylo material unless I force scum to NK me

EE I would bet is town with enough confidence that I would rather lynch someone like Gamma. No time right now but I can town case him later more thoroughly if you like

[Dannflor]

Explain read on xtoxm? I don't remember anything scummy but I don't really remember much at all

otherwise no big problems with your list I don't think

[Dannflor]

ever by lylo material unless I force scum to NK me

also just realized this makes 0 sense - just meant I probably shouldn't survive to lylo at this point so best I can do is hopefully draw a dousing

don't mind me I sleep now

[Dannflor]

Grapes was obviously going down. Any remotely competent scum hammers before a townie has a chance because 95% of the time (your prediction) it gets townread.

I don't think remotely competent scum makes it look like an lol!accident

[Dannflor]

imo, townness of the hammer is roughly equal to fakeness of the confusion.

what does this mean

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Shoshin

Still good with this — I think this is a more important lynch than EE and actually scummy (especially looking at grapes associatives)

If EE is actually scum I think it'll be at least somewhat obvious before lylo

Shoshin, what are your thoughts on slots not named Lycan? specifically I'm curious about reads on Vedith and DDL

[Dannflor]

Looks fake AF. So no towncred given. For reference, that's a hammer that's claimed as a L1 immediately after the L1 on the same page as the votecount stating L2.

Looking at time stamps Lycan's vote comes barely 1 full minute after Clemency's

He might have just missed it

[Dannflor]

Post preview doesn't work 100% of the time if you're using Quick Reply iirc, but I see your point

it's almost like PR picked a list of names of people who he can't read because they post weird and he doesn't actually consider motivation

Don't think this is entirely true

For example I don't think I'm a particularly lynch baity player (I hope) but I make the list just because there's enough of a chance I'm scum that I'll need to go before lylo ideally

If he was doing what you're claiming I would figure he'd have players like xtoxm or Gamma in there

[Dannflor]

Well I guess it's "trust me I know this person" case basically.

??

that's a really weird way to discredit a case that clearly does have more substance to it than that

[Dannflor]

I believe PR scumreads Shoshin here regardless of both of their alignments for :reasons:, FWIW.

feels like these kind of comments are only necessary if PR survives the night

which honestly probably never happens

[Dannflor]

Not really, no. It's the kind of comment designed to throttle votes onto shoshin so that we don't get a speed wagon and have more to analyze. I just gave people a valid way to not want to be on the wagon, and I want to see what comes of that.

Has pretty much nothing to do with PR.

Also, I'd totally not kill him here, because mafia is more fun when it's hard.

Okay I guess that strategy is fair

I'm just concerned about town cohesion always random nonsensical TvTs have a habit of torpedoing games

Also, I think the majority of scum players kill PR here, but I like your philosophy

[Dannflor]

this is a list of names randomly thrown together of people who post kinda weird in ways that make them slightly easier to lynch

This, btw, means you have no idea how PR approaches mafia.

One could have deduced this from the fact that I have absolutely no clue who he is, which is something one can infer from the times I have stated such.

Even so, it's fairly obvious that's not what he's doing just looking at his play this game

[Dannflor]

EE, what are you waiting for re: Shoshin?

[Dannflor]

"I saw Shoshin doing XXX and town Shoshin wouldn't do this" and "I saw Shoshin doing YYY and scum Shoshin would do this" is basically "I know this person and this person doesn't act like this as town."

I think the most damning part of the case involve the associatives and specifically Shoshin's awkward hop on to the wagon yesterday, however.

[Dannflor]

btw only had time to skim through your case but Jingle's #1606 is a direct response to Enter's #1553 if that helps you parse it at all

that's why I didn't question it because it was just a memey mocking of EE

[Dannflor]

I have nothing to say. PR has convinced me that I'm probably scum even though I'm town.

It feels like the scum have given up already.

[Dannflor]

Lycan, who are the scums?

I mean, how about you?

You TMIed DDL in 1501 but at the same time he hasn't answered who exactly rubbed him the wrong way bc he said grapes was a bad wagon due to distracting from buj. only after buj voted him did he revise it to that speed of wagon shit.

maybe it's irrelevant w/ grapes flip so yeah, you're worse for believing there was an actual concern

VOTE: Dannflor

i don't understand anything you're saying in this post sorry

[Dannflor]

like what does DDL have to do with that post for starters

[Dannflor]

you have bad reasons for you beliefs and taking what DDL said at face value is sus, but makes a lot more sense if you know his align.

I was literally voting DDL two seconds ago what

[Dannflor]

I'm not trying to discredit or intentionally misinterpret what you're saying or anything

I'm just seriously not understanding whatever it is you're getting at and sorry if that's frustrating

What do you think of Shoshin wagon/case?

[Dannflor]

hey it's vedith/shoshin calling it now

[Dannflor]

hey i replaced with my eyes on Vedith and Shoshin I want like 1/16th of some credit

[Dannflor]

also everyone knows who PR is but me and that's just fine idc i don't feel left out whatever

[Dannflor]

xtoxm what are you doing

[Dannflor]

Has PR not?

[Dannflor]

Shoshin, can you link a scum game or two?

[Dannflor]

You have two completed games as scum. That's not a sizable sample size in anyway. A 0% winrate literally means nothing, it could just be an anomaly, especially in an somewhat RNG-based, team-based game like mafia is.

That's why I don't believe this AtE about always losing as scum is genuine.

[Dannflor]

Shoshin, if you're town you need to do a better job leaving your mark on the game before you're lynched. Your attempts at pushing Lycan have been half-hearted at best and obviously not very successful. If you have the energy still left for this game, build a case.

My reads haven't changed much from yesterday. I'm not lynching Vedith, DDL, or EE today unless it's me or them.

Lycan or Clem gives us the best shot of hitting scum. Gamma's still plausible scum. Xtox needs to be reevaluated given the extent of his lurking.

PR needs to be lynched if still alive at LYLO, especially if he continues to push mislynches.

At the very least, explain why Vedith and DDL are on your never-lynch list, considering they seem to be somewhat supported lynches. Like, you claim you've been scum hunting, but I don't see you actively trying to do anything today beyond feign a push towards Lycan.

[Dannflor]

I don't make cases, Dann. Remember Suka? That was me.

Oh, interesting. Hm

I don't have any energy for this game because it doesn't matter what I say or do, everyone's always just going to sheep PR.

He's given you opportunities to be involved. Aside from yourself, do you think his read/approach on the game is wildly off?

shoshin if we gave you complete control over the next two lynches who would they be?

Do you have an answer to this?

[Dannflor]

Please don't either of you

[Dannflor]

Okay, I looked through some of Grapes games. I understand the wagon now.

VOTE: Grapes

Shoshin, can you tell me why you needed to look through some of Grapes games to understand the wagon? Did you really believe his meta was a major factor behind the wagon?

Sorry for interrogating you right now especially if you're energy levels are low, but I need this and if you're town I really need this

[Dannflor]

If Lycan's town, Clem's scum. Don't think that needs explanation.

Is this because you believe one of the last votes on the Grapes wagon has to be scum? I'm dumb and might need an explanation

[Dannflor]

Vedith's town because he's defending me, period. There's no reason for scum to defend me here. And maybe Vedith isn't town, I don't know, but I'm not lynching him today because at least he's doing the pro-town thing of trying to keep me alive.

I agree with the DDL point, but I'm not following this. If you're a lynch that's probably going through anyway, as you've said yourself, Vedith loses nothing by defending you. If he's scum and you're town then he would already know this is a mislynch and is just setting himself up to not be associated with it. Plus he gets the added bonus of pocketing you since we'll be more likely to sheep your reads after a green flip.

Is scum defending you harmful here? I'd probably expect them to, or at least to feign hesitation.

[Dannflor]

FWIW, the frustration here is real. It's something I'm actually good at catching. The problem is that it's NAI.

Yea, that's my problem here too. But I'm trying not to let it interfere with my reads because I'm very susceptible to AtE which is a weakness of mine.

I don't think this should be a lynch we just push through out of apathy though or because it's easy. If this is the lynch today we have to talk about it or we aren't actually going to gain as much as you hope from the flip. I think this situation is delicate enough that scum could slip up very easily here regardless of Shoshin's alignment. Likely, scum isn't posting much at all right now and is just hoping the lynch goes through so they can hide under the radar.

[Dannflor]

Dann stop making me look bad!

Sorry buddy

You might not be scum!

I just can't town read you yet

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Jingle

PR, lynch this. Making the argument that it's worth lynching me even if I'm town isn't ever something that town Jingle says about me.

It's consistent with Jingle's not-give-a-fuck attitude of not trying very hard this game. Is that sort of attitude AI for him? I haven't play with him enough to know.

[Dannflor]

Is Lycan town or scum? Everyone in this game has made me feel like I'm crazy for thinking he's scum. Am I crazy?

I think Lycan can be scum. He was one of my weaker town reads when I came in and Jingle pointed out my reasons for town reading him weren't very solid. I also don't understand why he goes after me and completely ignores commenting on the Shoshin wagon or anything. Like, it feels like it could be a vanity vote or setup for the next day.

[Dannflor]

Jingle, can you link other bored-Jingle games you've been in?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

I'm reading his ISO from 8-ball right now

I need time

also he can respond to my question

[Dannflor]

Shut up and let PR have his way (which is the path of least resistance)

PR is now voting you so this is the time to try hard

[Dannflor]

Fair

Scum defending you probably... actually defends you rather than just sheep you — that would be a weird move even for Vedith

[Dannflor]

Earlier, I only voted Shoshin just to help out with whatever PR was trying to look or find.

Now I actually want her lynched regardless of her alignment just to find out which storyline fits the most from many conjectures I have about the last few pages.

that's the easy way out

it's hard

hard but possible

to figure out which conjecture is real by discussing it

play mafia

[Dannflor]

Why? FMPOV there's a bunch of mutually identified obvtown and the players I'm most worried about being able to deepwolf are obvious nightkills, and thus CAN'T deepwolf.

I don't think letting myself get lynched loses the game. And I don't care about being mislynched. :shrug:

because it's playing against your win condition if you don't try to give us at least SOMETHING to work with

Like if you don't want to play, why are you here

[Dannflor]

Why do this to me, Reiuji? Are you scum?

No, I think she's lazy town

[Dannflor]

Yo Jingle, other games where you've gone apathetic as town? Link plz?

[Dannflor]

Reiuji doesn't strike me as lazy.

Maybe not lazy, but the last several pages are emotionally exhausting, so I wouldn't necessarily fault town for defaulting to the "easy way out" even if I don't think it's optimal and would argue against it

[Dannflor]

Thanks

And you're right you have produced content this game. I guess I'm just hoping town!you doesn't just let yourself be lynched

[Dannflor]

Reiuji doesn't strike me as lazy.

This seems wrong

What about it?

[Dannflor]

pain in the ass I would assume

I should reread your ISO from that game hold on

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: relevant end of Jingle's ISO from no deadlines

Alternatively, people on edge are particularly easy to read.

I'm not saying there aren't reasons to scumread her. I'm saying that I'm not convinced she's scum because of those reasons.

3007 is the best post about why mastina could be scum so far though, so...

Stop. Hammer time.

VOTE: mastina

The additional time would cause more apathy and disengagement than it would have solved.

Nearly everyone had her at obvtown - until she flipped.

which should ring bells for you when everyone and their cat wants to lynch her here

not true at all this lynch was WAY harder than it should have been
almost everyone not on the wagon was hard opposed to it
i think the only possible extra vte we could have got is wagon
everyone else was intent on disabling this lynch

Narp.

I honestly don't see Enter/Stina scumteam. The Chainsaw is too obvious. Could be either or neither, but not both.

Hebichan is another slot I’m good at reading and I see no reason to scumread that slot. Mastina is just that good at fooling people. ISO her in RC uPick game, if you don’t believe me. Nearly everyone had her at obvtown - until she flipped.

Bad example.

Why? Everyone obvtownread her, except for her scumpal Nico, that is.

Nope?

JJh and I spent literally PAGES of mechanical discussion preventing her lynch from the moment I stepped into the game. It was mechanically optimal not to lynch her, and there were still a bunch of people (Fire, Varsoon, Invis, Mememen etc) who wanted to lynch her. Even the people who were townreading her were mostly doing so because the play of clearing a bunch of townies just didn't make sense for scum to do. I literally derailed wagons on her on consecutive days. She was not "obvtown" by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, go ahead and list the people who opposed the mastina lynch. I'll help. Jingle, Wisdom, Sheep. Yup, a third of the 'resistance' to the lynch was the hammer.

Enter kind of did at the end when I'd already made it clear I was proanything but a townread and was arguing against the lynch largely to point out that the stances of the people on the wagon itself were garbage. Brie and Wagon were both outright support. Koki wants the day to end by any means necessary. BNL and vax were on a better wagon, but neither seemed especially against the mastina lynch. Vonflare and light haven't done shit in days, and thus can't be said to have been against the wagon that popped up since they've been disconnected. And PB... Has done literally fuckall since I stopped pushing that read.

Compared to the Ausuka lynch, the sheep lynch, the PB lynch, the Dannflor lynch (that had the passive support of pretty much everyone), the mastina lynch was easy as fuck to get through.

VOTE: Mastina

This, btw, is the second vote on Mastina. 5 days ago. A sixth of the day phase. Prior to that, X was voting her but not attempting to push the wagon because he didn't think it would go anywhere. Dannflor replaced in, his wagon fell apart, and mastina died. In quick succession. I was the ONLY real pushback to the lynch. Wisdom was largely absent while it happened. Sheep was largely absent while it happened. And even I wasn't townreading her, just aware that the cases on her were completely NAI. Which... is something I pointed out. Many times.

It's rather important that we keep what actually happened in mind here, because there's a lot of shit floating around that just isn't true.

Also, I have a feeling I'm gonna die tonight because obvtown AF and not letting narratives about the game stand, so all I have to say is look back at profii and CT. They were probably killed for reads accuracy.

So, yes, you did hammer Mastina despite believing she wasn't the best lynch.

However, my problem with comparing this game to that one is that despite not wanting to try hard on your (correct) reads, you still didn't let "narratives about the game stand." Like, despite your apathy you did end up being a NK and I don't see your play drawing one here.

I would expect the same Jingle from that game to push me more? Like I understand you aren't going to put up a fight against PR or Shoshin or whatever, but in no deadlines you still constantly stated how I was prob scum AND said the Mastina lynch was stupid with many bad votes. Here, you aren't doing as much of that analysis. Maybe you're just

more

apathetic here, but in that game you didn't really truly "give up" until you had to hammer.

[Dannflor]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=79020 - Only Tryhard post lynch
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78019 - Not even a real game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77108 - Broke a setup, should have won after Eragon and thor pushed me into giving a shit by assuming bad math, but the conftown failed to hammer, halving our EV and forcing the tie
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77420 - about a third of my posts here (and in the mason thread) were demands that the mod flip me as Queen Latifah
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=76002 - I spent maybe two pages cementing bad associatives then laid down and died because scum had the game in the bag.







https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78228 - Tryhard in doomed slot
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78023 - Tryhardish, but I kinda just gave up on pushing scum reads and hammered a townread for game tempo reasons
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77903 - Tryhard, also fuck playing against shoshin, nsg and relly in a nightless
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77055 - Mixed bag. Tryhard mechanically, but I straight up didn't give a shit as soon as the game looked over. (Read: mechanical 1v1 with the last scum). Proven by the fact that I didn't even double check who submitted an action when and thought I was in an additional 1v1 with Beavis and Butthead avvy guy whose name escapes me. Starts with a V I think.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76181 - Another mixed bag. I was supposed to low effort this game, but I spent a lot of time fighting RC. And then got shot when I paid enough attention to actually be useful the night after investigative RC got shot. This is half of the reason I didn't /in for this when asked by Ali, btw, although this game tells me me and RC can not be dicks to each other, so I'm not going to avoid games with him.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=74422 - I tryharded the shit out of D1. And led three consecutive town lynches. Unfortunately, I was town.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76042 - I tryharded the shit out of this whole game and would have won if Ank didn't replace lynchbait and RNG didn't hate me.


There, every game Jingle played in on the first page of my bookmarks tab.

Thank you, I need to go eat but I'll look at some of these later this afternoon

[Dannflor]

What are the chances everyone who has posted in the last several pages is town imploding on itself and scum have lurked out of the game/are hoping we destroy ourselves?

[Dannflor]

If Shoshin is town --- no reason for scum to interfere, it looks like it'll be a quick lynch, either get on the wagon or lurk till it goes through

If Shoshin is scum --- eh it gets more complicated here probably, scum might try to do a variety of things out of desperation

[Dannflor]

@NSG, Clemency and Gamma haven't posted for several days and aren't on V/LA as far as I can tell, can we get a prod or replacement? Thanks.

[Dannflor]

oops

@mod

for my last post ^^^^

I need to take a break from this game

no turbo lynching anyone

pedit: and guys leave the AtE discussion for elsewhere? it's probably not relevant to solving this game

[Dannflor]

:sigh:

[Dannflor]

ok fine

VOTE: shoshin

this slot living might make it hard for people to play regardless so

and im not ready to quit this game just yet

[Dannflor]

You can all follow me now.

What does this look like? Lynching Jingle?

[Dannflor]

ok so there are people who would be opposed to a clemency lynch hmm

[Dannflor]

I don't dislike a grapes lynch.

VOTE: Grapes

Full disclosure, I have no idea why we lynched grapes.

Jingle, you're gonna have to reconcile these two posts for me

How were you okay with the lynch and then claimed you didn't know why there was a lynch there? Like, were you just lying in the first post?

I guess if you're apathetic you don't really care who gets lynched but it sounds like you were on board with the lynch for *reasons* and then reversed that stance

[Dannflor]

dang got em VOTE: Rei.

Seriously tho im pretty sure at least one scum is in those three if not more.

Lemme throw it out there that while Eagles play is bad i think its bad town and anyone voting him is looking scummy rn. Yes you grapes

this is weird

grapes has ~6 votes but he votes elsewhere and calls grapes scummy

[Dannflor]

he votes elsewhere

Context says he was jokevoting me though.

was it? It looks like he was suspecting you to some degree - either way joke voting at that point of the day seems weird

Lemme throw it out there that while Eagles play is bad i think its bad town and anyone voting him is looking scummy rn. Yes you grapes

Mcqueen can be town for this post by the way

like I town read it initially because I mind melded him with his thoughts on Eagle and how voting him at that point was straight up scummy

but I didn't see the context where grapes has 6 votes on him and mcqueen places a vanity vote while calling grapes scummy

it looks like scum hoping the wagon won't go through but still allowing an opening for him to join the wagon later

[Dannflor]

I think if Shoshin flips scum, we just lynch Clem > Gamma > Vedith in order and probably win.

I've been thinking about the reason about her overly emotional thing and I think one reason could be because her scummate is non-existent.

Clem first because of my MS Paint post, Gamma next for potential candidate, and Vedith for a meme.

if Shoshin is red I'd lynch Vedith sooner than that

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure. Would mafia openly WK scummate like that?

Vedith definitely would and has before

I also think in this game state he has to go for that play or he just loses anyway

[Dannflor]

You think after the 1 time I defend a Scum buddy over getting them lynched loses me a Scum game that I do it again?

That wasn't at all what caused you to lose in that game, and in fact is part of why you managed to go as far as you did

[Dannflor]

Like if it's Vedith/Shoshin, Vedith is already gonna get lynched before lylo no matter what basically. Shoshin, however, probably has the ability to stay alive and maybe win especially if PR gets NKed. The only winning play for that scum team is to make sure Shoshin stays alive at any cost.

I don't know why this is a point of debate for you Vedith if you're so sure Shoshin is town

[Dannflor]

That's not true at all.
If I lynched TL I wouldn't have had to push on Yumeko, I wouldn't have had to kill RC when I did. I wouldn't have had to kill you night 1.

It plays the game out 100% differently and imo is what lost it.

Okay, maybe. Regardless, this is a play that is certainly not out of the question for you to make. I know it's not outside your scum range. Whether or not you would make it in front of people who witnessed a similar play... Eh, that's a WIFOM rabbit hole.

Mostly, it comes down to the fact that I think it's probably one of the only plays scum

can

make given that team and the game state, added to the fact that I know you're capable of it.

[Dannflor]

My debate isn't that I'm lynched on it, as I didn't argue the comments for that.
I just don't think you believe this.

That's a weird way to discredit me.

Even if my logic is flawed, I believe what I'm saying. Why would I lie? If you think I'm scum, call me scum. Don't say shit like that.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if you saw your buddy going down and then hard defended her knowing I might town read you for it because I just saw you do the same thing in another game and

of course

you wouldn't do that in front of me

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure. Would mafia openly WK scummate like that?

in my experience with vedith, yes.

Nope I don't see it.
Why the fuck are you defending that?

You think he is scum because of that?

Me too?

[Dannflor]

You think he is scum because of that?

No I think town and that's why it's so fucking stupid to make meta up as town.
You I don't know why and I don't care why.

ok ok fair

not worth arguing over right now anyway

[Dannflor]

@Dann - why are you being so nice to people this game? Where is your no-nonsense scum hunting attitude?

Because that's where my nature tends towards. Also, we already have no-nonsense scum hunting town leader types in this game, that's not my role here.

I don't think this needs to be a hard game. I'm most concerned about town cohesion and making sure town doesn't eat itself alive or get too apathetic because that's how a lot of these kinds of games get lost.

[Dannflor]

gamma vote shoshin for free cookies

[Dannflor]

Actually

I have a better idea

VOTE: vedith

before shoshin?

[Dannflor]

wait nerfedbuj is bujaber?????? Wtf

[Dannflor]

ok enough shut posting I sleep

Prince you should post your spicy stuff before day end

[Dannflor]

shit** god damnit

[Dannflor]

First thought on seeing that no one died was that scum would try to frame Prince as mafia, even if just to discredit his reads (since that's probably more powerful than flipping him and having everyone sheep his reads postmortem). Alisae backing off so quickly reads more like overzealous town though. I'll sheep Prince on his read in this slot for now, because I'm not entirely sure how to read it.

Going after Jingle out of all of Shoshin's reads is odd, and I think he's town. However, as long as we're on the sheeping Shoshin's reads train, DDL is also town.

Lycan (which is Ankamius btw guys we have replacements) and Clemency are both fine lynches, I think mcqueen is scummier than Clemency though. And Ank/Lycan is worse than mcqueen.

Ank, I need you to start posting something of substance because your catch-up questioning mode looks extremely empty. It's fine if you need to catch up but your ISO is godawful and the definition of "trying to look solvey." What are your reads? Are you still thinking Jingle/Alisae has high scum equity? Because those are the only real thoughts on the game I can find from you and I think you should have some more input by now, whether you're fully caught up or not.

VOTE: Ankamius

pedit: DDL's attitude last few pages reads tonally town to me

[Dannflor]

Ank, could you explain again why you don't think there was scum at the end of the grapes wagon?

[Dannflor]

unless you're rethinking that

[Dannflor]

the fuscosco wagon shapes the grapes wagon a bit differently than I initially interpreted it as, I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet without seeing the context behind both of the wagons

Why does the D2 wagon similarity affect how you interpret the D1 wagon? Not quite following here.

[Dannflor]

Wow.. how are you guys still townreading Alisae.. what do you need?

Seriously are you waiting for a scum slip or a newb mistake. You expect her to scream it from the top of her lungs?

Prince has a reason or reasons to have er at very strong town, and I'm willing to trust that since I believe Prince to be town.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Vedith

Hello everyone

Explain Vedith vote?

How much of the game have you read/what are your thoughts on it so far?

[Dannflor]

Does anyone disagree or have better ideas to add?

{ali/jingle}
{mcqueen/ddl/clem/ank/xtoxm}

disagree with ddl and xtoxm

and jingle

I would add Vedith to the PoE somewhere

[Dannflor]

i think that my reads are better than shoshins.
i also think that reiuji's reads are better than shoshins
i don't think that of anyone else in this game.

Might be true might be false but you haven't flipped yet so irrelevant

i think that my reads are better than shoshins.
i also think that reiuji's reads are better than shoshins
i don't think that of anyone else in this game.

Plz hard reset. There's a reason you didn't die, and this time it's not that I'm a cheeky scumfuck.

weird shading of Prince's reads simply for still being alive

there are a few reasons scum doesn't kill Prince yet that don't involve his read on the game being entirely off

[Dannflor]

ok fair

Thoughts on Vedith?

[Dannflor]

Lol here comes the weak pushes on me.

Hey Vedith o/

Why Jingle over Shoshin's earlier scum reads of Lycan/Clem slots?

[Dannflor]

boredom

people were happy w/ game state

i don't like when people are happy w/ game state

i was trying to figure out who wouldn't be happy if I said "no, this game state is bad"

nobody wanted to lynch vedith

I'm a little worried about this right now?

Especially with no NK, I'm trying to figure out what scum are doing to try and win the game.

One thing to keep in mind potentially is that scum will avoid pushing doused players at all costs because it basically costs them a night kill. There are fairly good odds Prince is already doused so the only way for scum to play around him will be not to push for his mislynch, but to discredit/scumread him while pushing elsewhere. I'd guess either Enter or myself are also doused. I'd just watch how people play around EE and Prince specifically today because I think they're the most likely doused targets, and playing with obv town players you can't make a real push for even if circumstances change probably stands out. It's why I'm not really a fan of Ank's half-hearted push on Enter, but I might just be conf-biasing on that.

[Dannflor]

i don't think I'll ever be motivated in this game as long as I'm afraid of being scumread if I lead an incorrect lynch.

you cannot be pushed as a lynch

people scum reading you/discrediting your reads will have to out themselves as scum

[Dannflor]

How and why would it make sense to frame someone as scum by no killing exactly? Not understanding the flow of logic or how no death would be a frame attempt given the setup.

Prince lead a wagon on grapes, mafia, day one. He's an extremely strong player and obvious town this game so most players agreed he'd likely die last night. He didn't.

A simple (but flawed) explanation is that Prince is scum because ~~~paranoia~~~

you're going to need very good reasons to push Prince right now and I don't believe those exist until proven otherwise

discrediting him or scum reading him based on the mere fact he's still alive will be a scum tactic imo

[Dannflor]

Ank's town btw but that's probably not news

It sort of is to me? Where did you pull that from?

[Dannflor]

jingle what was your thought process when you initially replaced into the game?

how you approached the game, Jingle

Okay Ank I'll be completely transparent my issue with you *could* just be style differences, so hopefully you can help me understand if I'm wrong

I'm not following your thought processes on posts like the above, I'm not seeing the end of your arc, the conclusions you're drawing from asking such questions. Like, I'm reading it like empty questioning/catching up because I'm not really seeing the solve behind your questioning.

How did you expect knowing Jingle's thought process when he replaced in would help you sort him? Is there a specific thing you're looking for or is it a general feeler type reaction test just to get a base level read on him?

[Dannflor]

So Xtoxm’s still done next to nothing

says the car who has done nothing

sorry, I know you were sick but

like pressure xtoxm or something if you think that? make him do something?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Rei
So far its a vote on me (town) and wanting to vote someone I think is town and also a sort of lame jab abt me having a gutread on Ank in spite a not reading when Ank had a shitton of posts right when I came in

town reading because "shitton of posts" is lazy

what about the posts are town to you

this is just avoiding explaining yourself

also terrible vote

[Dannflor]

VOTE: mcqueen

[Dannflor]

actually wait no

VOTE: Vedith

sheeping prince is still best play and Vedith lynch is good too

Vedith I need you to talk to me if you're town

Are you locked into Lycan/Clem/Jingle slots today?

Who are your top town reads? I feel like the only town read I remember from you is Shoshin

[Dannflor]

I like Dann trying to just push focus back into solving.
Dann town \o/

Well, you're not a town read I can tell you that much.

What changed?

You also just completely dodged my question

Who are you town reading right now?

[Dannflor]

What do you make of his general apathy towards this game? Does that alone seem AI in either direction as far as reading him goes?

[Dannflor]

How and why would it make sense to frame someone as scum by no killing exactly? Not understanding the flow of logic or how no death would be a frame attempt given the setup.

Prince lead a wagon on grapes, mafia, day one. He's an extremely strong player and obvious town this game so most players agreed he'd likely die last night. He didn't.

A simple (but flawed) explanation is that Prince is scum because ~~~paranoia~~~

you're going to need very good reasons to push Prince right now and I don't believe those exist until proven otherwise

discrediting him or scum reading him based on the mere fact he's still alive will be a scum tactic imo

Is anyone doing that?

Alisae tried for a brief moment at the start of the day.

[Dannflor]

What changed?

You also just completely dodged my question

Who are you town reading right now?

About 30 pages a lynch on my town read and the night.

I'm not interested in giving my town reads.

Why not?

It's very hard to get a bead on you when you insist on not giving out reads and at the same time using a dead person to justify all your actions today.

[Dannflor]

@mod, V/LA until the 29th - will have unknown/limited access most of the time, and some access on the 28th

[Dannflor]

Okay, then give me scum reads.

I'm honestly just trying to get anything out of you. Do you genuinely scumread lycan/clem/Jingle slots or are you only lynching there because Shoshin thought they were scum? Do you have scum reads outside of that?

[Dannflor]

What do you think of mcqueen's catch-up today?

[Dannflor]

thats funny cause i havent done a catch up

referring to your pop in and updated reads

is xtoxm your top scum read?

[Dannflor]

Scum have 3 ignites iirc, why not ignite N2 if it destroys town core or a dangerous player like Prince?

[Dannflor]

wait enter

You said you remember rolling scum twice and being lynched D1 both times, but No Deadlines??

or are you not counting that because replacement

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Ank

like this and less sure about Vedith

and just FYI I’ll be out of service indefinitely soon but I’ll try to pop in if possible

[Dannflor]

hi

home now and will have energy to put into this game after resting a bit, will post before sleep tonight

[Dannflor]

Hm that's an interesting vote count

UNVOTE:

Something is weird

Anyway, I have a lot I want to say and do. I'm just trying to figure out whether I want to do a gigantic wall post or spam the thread.

I'll probably do a few walls as that's more my style and hopefully easier to digest, despite how tempting replying to things one at a time is. I'm gonna start with a post that responds/comments on things that catch my interest since I've gone V/LA, since I've only skimmed since then. Then, I'll probably town case myself. I've seen a lot of passive support for my wagon skimming through, which means I think it's worthwhile to present a few arguments as to why I should be obviously town. I know the arguments will always hold less weight with me being the one presenting them, but I

know

I'm capable of obv towning and if I don't try my hardest to make that clear with a wagon on me then I won't be playing my best game. I'll finish up with a reads list and hopefully analyze the votes over the last 10 pages, something feels off there I'm just not sure what yet.

Oh also, I plead that people try not to get too intimidated by walls if these end up being big and read the actual words that I have to say and engage with them. Don't just look at a wall and town read me for it please

I will try to be concise.

[Dannflor]

wait enter

You said you remember rolling scum twice and being lynched D1 both times, but No Deadlines??

or are you not counting that because replacement

Yeah.
I'm not counting it because replacing in is different. Also ND was the first game I replaced in and wasn't immediately lynched and that was only because the game day had gone on for a month at that point and my predecessor was locktown

This is fair. Your play there is very different from your play here anyways, and you ended up getting lynched eventually anyway so...

If this is your scum game people will definitely have to respect you a lot more from here on out but I believe I can say with 90% confidence you're town here.

Scum have 3 ignites iirc, why not ignite N2 if it destroys town core or a dangerous player like Prince?

It's...still not a good idea.

But why? Obviously, in an ideal world mafia doesn't ignite until endgame so as to give the least amount of information possible. However, I can see scenarios where igniting early on could be beneficial to either destroy town cohesion or get rid of a particularly dangerous town leader.

Maybe it's mechanically sub-par but I don't think it's an out of the question scum strategy.

town reading because "shitton of posts" is lazy

what about the posts are town to you

this is just avoiding explaining yourself

also terrible vote

Not townreading Ank bc she had a shitton of posts
My impression of Rei questioning the read was that i wasnt allower to have any reads bc Id barely read anything. But I had read Anks posts bc shed posted a lot right then and

I thought her whole thing w Enter was p towny

That's what I'm looking for. Thank you. I glazed over that because I couldn't figure out why Ankamius was scum reading Enter to begin with, but I'll revisit it because the progression itself is interesting.

guys lets have some conviction and consolidate on a lynch.

this game is getting quagmired imo, and the enviroment feels borderline apathy (or maybe it's just me)

i want to vote alisae to save the mod from finding yet another replacement, but that slot is probs town.

This is all very towny

dannflor are you scum

no enter imma prove it to you

dannflor almost guaranteed flips sucm here

noooo you can't read me ;_; you promised you could read me

It's okay

EE/Ank jam out session exudes towniness, despite them reaching some incorrect conclusions

reading more

There's A LOT of town spew on these pages I feel

I think this game is solvable just by PoE

DDL's dumb tell isn't AI imo

Dann has this feeling of wanting to have a rapport w players and his defence of Renais felt kinda out of place at the time
Like his vote on Ank after asking if its just playstyle differences and being unable to understand her doesnt feel like a great reason for a scumread
Conclusions feel kinda surface like after I replied to him abt my ank townread he didnt rly followup or push me where id expect to be pushed
Feels kinda like not making waves??
Should put more time into this but yeah

I have been very open about wanting to have a rapport with players. My whole fucking crusade this game has been about trying to maintain town cohesion, which I think is particularly important when nearly half the playerlist has replaced out, no? Why is my defence of Renais out of place?

I had not been in the thread since you replied to me about your Ank town read. I didn't even have cell service. How do you expect me to "followup or push you where you'd expect to be pushed" if I'm literally not here.

Yuck.

if dann ends up being scum it possibly spews prince-slot as town

Why?

[Dannflor]

The Somewhat Narcissistic Self-Towncase

Aight so I really really feel I should be conf town or close to it based off my interactions with Shoshin yesterday.

I tried really fucking hard yesterday right before Shoshin replaced out. Call it my weakness for AtE but I had an inkling Shoshin could be town, and I got very active trying to engage her and get her thoughts because even if she was going down they'd be useful to have and also because I thought if I did a good enough job I could swing the lynch elsewhere and actually steer us away from the drama that happened. Unfortunately, Shoshin still replaced out and I felt forced into voting her after that.

Below is a pruned copy of my ISO from yesterday. It begins with Shoshin at L-4, which rapidly progresses to L-3 with a Shoshin self vote. I am already on the wagon at this time. As scum I have no reason to make any of these posts and in fact should just be sitting back and hoping the lynch goes through.

Spoiler:

quote="In post 1836, Dannflor"]Shoshin, can you link a scum game or two?[/quote]

You have two completed games as scum. That's not a sizable sample size in anyway. A 0% winrate literally means nothing, it could just be an anomaly, especially in an somewhat RNG-based, team-based game like mafia is.

That's why I don't believe this AtE about always losing as scum is genuine.

Shoshin, if you're town you need to do a better job leaving your mark on the game before you're lynched. Your attempts at pushing Lycan have been half-hearted at best and obviously not very successful. If you have the energy still left for this game, build a case.

My reads haven't changed much from yesterday. I'm not lynching Vedith, DDL, or EE today unless it's me or them.

Lycan or Clem gives us the best shot of hitting scum. Gamma's still plausible scum. Xtox needs to be reevaluated given the extent of his lurking.

PR needs to be lynched if still alive at LYLO, especially if he continues to push mislynches.

At the very least, explain why Vedith and DDL are on your never-lynch list, considering they seem to be somewhat supported lynches. Like, you claim you've been scum hunting, but I don't see you actively trying to do anything today beyond feign a push towards Lycan.

I don't make cases, Dann. Remember Suka? That was me.

Oh, interesting. Hm

I don't have any energy for this game because it doesn't matter what I say or do, everyone's always just going to sheep PR.

He's given you opportunities to be involved. Aside from yourself, do you think his read/approach on the game is wildly off?

shoshin if we gave you complete control over the next two lynches who would they be?

Do you have an answer to this?

Please don't either of you

Okay, I looked through some of Grapes games. I understand the wagon now.

VOTE: Grapes

Shoshin, can you tell me why you needed to look through some of Grapes games to understand the wagon? Did you really believe his meta was a major factor behind the wagon?

Sorry for interrogating you right now especially if you're energy levels are low, but I need this and if you're town I really need this

If Lycan's town, Clem's scum. Don't think that needs explanation.

Is this because you believe one of the last votes on the Grapes wagon has to be scum? I'm dumb and might need an explanation

Vedith's town because he's defending me, period. There's no reason for scum to defend me here. And maybe Vedith isn't town, I don't know, but I'm not lynching him today because at least he's doing the pro-town thing of trying to keep me alive.

I agree with the DDL point, but I'm not following this. If you're a lynch that's probably going through anyway, as you've said yourself, Vedith loses nothing by defending you. If he's scum and you're town then he would already know this is a mislynch and is just setting himself up to not be associated with it. Plus he gets the added bonus of pocketing you since we'll be more likely to sheep your reads after a green flip.

Is scum defending you harmful here? I'd probably expect them to, or at least to feign hesitation.

FWIW, the frustration here is real. It's something I'm actually good at catching. The problem is that it's NAI.

Yea, that's my problem here too. But I'm trying not to let it interfere with my reads because I'm very susceptible to AtE which is a weakness of mine.

I don't think this should be a lynch we just push through out of apathy though or because it's easy. If this is the lynch today we have to talk about it or we aren't actually going to gain as much as you hope from the flip. I think this situation is delicate enough that scum could slip up very easily here regardless of Shoshin's alignment. Likely, scum isn't posting much at all right now and is just hoping the lynch goes through so they can hide under the radar.

Is Lycan town or scum? Everyone in this game has made me feel like I'm crazy for thinking he's scum. Am I crazy?

I think Lycan can be scum. He was one of my weaker town reads when I came in and Jingle pointed out my reasons for town reading him weren't very solid. I also don't understand why he goes after me and completely ignores commenting on the Shoshin wagon or anything. Like, it feels like it could be a vanity vote or setup for the next day.

Jingle, can you link other bored-Jingle games you've been in?

UNVOTE:

Earlier, I only voted Shoshin just to help out with whatever PR was trying to look or find.

Now I actually want her lynched regardless of her alignment just to find out which storyline fits the most from many conjectures I have about the last few pages.

that's the easy way out

it's hard

hard but possible

to figure out which conjecture is real by discussing it

play mafia

What are the chances everyone who has posted in the last several pages is town imploding on itself and scum have lurked out of the game/are hoping we destroy ourselves?

ok fine

VOTE: shoshin

this slot living might make it hard for people to play regardless so

and im not ready to quit this game just yet

So, the above consists of my consistently trying to engage with Shoshin and

work

with her that day. She came dangerously close to being lynched and I really do think I played a hand in lessening the pressure on her for a short while. People started talking about other lynches, namely Jingle—who wasn't my ideal choice but the discussion was still healthy. There's just no reason for me to go to all that trouble as scum when I could have an easy mislynch just shutting up. Like, yes. I am capable of faking big wall posts and faking analytical style reads on players as scum. I do not think I am capable of 99% of the above posts I listed.

That progression from yesterday culminates in me actually unvoting Shoshin because I thought I'd bought us enough time to continue discussion and settle on a lynch that wasn't just borne out of apathy. But then Shoshin replaced out, which really sucked. I gave up then and went back to the Shoshin wagon because it would've been twice the up hill battle it already was to convince people not to lynch that slot than it already had been to peel pressure off of it.

Like, people are saying Vedith had no good reason to be WKing Shoshin yesterday, but I feel like I actually did and encouraged a lot more there and almost turned the day around. Unfortunately, it was not to be.

But I was pro-town. Of course, because I'm pointing it out right now you can say I was just faking it. But why? I really don't have much to gain there.

Anyway, that's the main reason I'm town. That's the part of the game I've been most present for and put the most energy into, otherwise I have not been playing my best game and I do hope to fix that. There are a few other small things, like me not letting the Jingle lynch go through when it presented itself as an alternative to Shoshin yesterday, and also me

not

immediately voting Grapes when I replaced in (which I absolutely would have done as scum). But those posts revolving around Shoshin D2 spew me as town IMO and at the very least mean that I'm playing pro-town enough that I shouldn't be the lynch today over other slots.

That's all about that.

[Dannflor]

Let's do some reads. I'm excited. Because reading back the last 10 pages or so and doing my catch up post, I think we can narrow down the lynch pool enough to make hitting scum today very likely.

Using the player list in the OP for this in order to keep track of all the replacements.

Ankamius replaced Lycanfire *

- I played with Ankamius in Merchant's Daughter where she played very different from how she's playing here. That's why I initially had an averse reaction to her posting because I hadn't seen her do this style of rapid-fire posting and questioning before. Based on how I perceived her in Merchant's Daughter, she seemed more analytical and reserved. I peeked at some of her other games and realized this game is closer to her standard than my previous experience was, and is probably closer to town-indicative.

The discussion between Ank and Enter on 105 isn't faked, which means they cannot be S/S. Reading it closer, it's probably T/T. The only situation where it makes sense for scum to opt into this back and forth is if Ank is trying to pocket EE here. It's a possibility if only because of how widely town read EE is. However, it's not a progression that was forced by Ank, and I don't think you start off a pocket by null-reading somebody. This interaction specifically couldn't really have been orchestrated and that makes me think it's more likely town from Ank than scum. The mini-town jam session with Enter a couple pages later is more points for Ank town as well. In fact, I like a lot of her posts since then, reading back.

I scum read her on entrance because her questioning seemed empty and she wasn't reaching any conclusions, but I think that was a product of having to catch up. She's been following through on her lines of questioning and forming reads/conclusions from those in ways that I don't think are easily faked by scum.

Liger_Zero replaced Gamma Emerald **

- Gamma has like 3 posts before replacing out or something? I remember absolutely nothing alignment indicative from her and flaking out certainly isn't. Liger is snarky as fuck and I almost want to town read him just for that, but a few specific posts of his town pinged me.

Starting to get disinterested in this. We gonna get everyone on a wagon or something?

Towwwn. A variety of wagons is good for scum imo. Especially if they are on largely town players, which I think they are right now. I don't think scum is very likely to draw attention with a post like this, it's so blatant.

Like why am I here all scum Maxie shopping for reads when theres an entire thread of opinions i could grab for convenience
idk i feel like im pretty obvious trying to interact w people and talk abt their reads and your conclusions arent making any sense
@Liger

Because your opinions do look like they are being shopped so far? Not seeing much in terms of original thinking but I haven't been really reading your posts as of late so theres that.

Also mind melding with him on Max. I picked at Max's weird progression on me in my catch up post, but there's a lot of ??? stuff from him.

He also shuts down other wagons or at least closes them off to himself, and is pretty tunneled on Vedith. I think scum is more likely to try and leave their options open given the game state.

RAS replaced Alisae

- Snarky again but less obv town imo. His #3114 really town pings me though because it's transparent, and outlines a townie thought process for switching wagons when scum would have no reason to do so. With me being MIA from the thread, there's no real incentive for scum to not just sit on me until I at least return and respond so the switch here is unnecessary. Bonus points for reconsidering reads. Alisae replacing out because of apathy also matches er behavior from Merchant's Dance, and I believe Jingle said e tends to go hard as scum. That's only very minor town points though.

Reiuji Utsuho

- I think obviously town and I'm not going to waste time talking about this too much unless people start disagreeing. Natural progressions, good thoughts and analysis.

Somebody do me a math and tell me how many mislynches we have right now, assuming that we are one horrible horrible towngroup and keeps mislynching every day starting now while magically managing to not lynch any of the doused people.

Kinda think this is a town slip too.

NerfedBuJ

- I think this is another mostly consensus town read now, so won't case it. He is
A. tonally very town
B. much more genuine and thorough in his analysis here than he is in his scum game

MaxwellPuckett replaced Clemency *

- Already commented on a post that was pretty yuck.

Idk im out the door rn but Dannslot looks kinds like scum u just lynch eventually

I also just flat out do not understand this while in the very same post calling DDL lynch bait. Really reads like an opinion that's only there because people started thinking I was scum in the recent pages before that post.

To quote Max, a poem:

"Conclusions feel kinda
Feels kinda like not making waves??
Should put more time into this but yeah"

I think this is scum.

Jingle replaced Frozen Angel

- This is town. I want to detail this explicitly, but it might have to be tomorrow because I don't think enough of my brain cells are awake right now for that. I do think I can make a good town case for Jingle though. He just has done a lot of things that don't really make sense for scum to do.

VOTE: Xtox

ngl, I still like my other wagon and I will totes hammer there if you build it, but apparently I missed a bunch of PR posts and I can grok it.

This is one off the top of my head. I don't think there's any reason to switch to xtoxm randomly here when he was already gaining support for wagons that he'd look a lot less suspicious on. There's a lot of other reasons too but will come tomorrow.

Extrapolated Eagle

- Town.

DrDolittle

- The dumb tell/slip whatever is not alignment indicative but all his other posts heavily town spew him. He's been trying to push the game in a positive direction even if his individual play hasn't been the best. The worst part about this slot is Maxwell's associations, but I'd wait until an actual flip there to sink here.

Vedith

- Vedith is a consistently hard read for me due to his play style. I really don't think his WKing of Shoshin clears him. His play yesterday basically just consisted of saying "don't lynch Shoshin" and sheeping her, in fact he's still just sheeping her today. I don't see that as outside of his scum range and I think scum defends doomed mislynches all the time. Otherwise, I don't like his associatives with grapes nor how he reacted to me and Prince pressuring him before Shoshin flipped. I feel like he's pretty apathetic and I feel like that could come from scum!Vedith only if his partner was someone useless like Clemency.

@Vedith, how do you feel about voting Maxwell?

Prince of Renais replaced PvtUrist

- I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. I don't think scum!Prince is ever this paranoid about getting mislynched because of leading bad wagons. The case against him is "he's a really good scum player." If that were the case, he would not have lead a wagon on his partner Day 1. I don't think that's a good plan when Prince is somewhat likely to get mislynched by a paranoid or otherwise bad town. Scum!Prince would keep his team alive, drive mislynches, and probably die before endgame but get his team into a good spot imo. That would, at least, be the mastermind scum plan, which is what people who are suspicious of him seem to be scared of.

mcqueen *

- Literally the only thing I've seen this car do is call xtoxm out for doing nothing while doing nothing himself. I've brought this up before but I hate his posts on page 55 where he votes Rei (joke or not) and completely ignores the 6 vote grapes wagon. I realize he's been sick, but he's added nothing of substance except for a quick meta on xtoxm, despite lack of content being the driving force behind his tunnel on xtoxm.

thats funny cause i havent done a catch up

referring to your pop in and updated reads

is xtoxm your top scum read?

I was waiting for Booneytoonz extravaganza to finish before I truly call out xtoxm.

He’s scum here like he was in that game.

VOTE: xtoxm

Karmeleon what do you think?

I was waiting for Booneytoonz extravaganza to finish before I truly call out xtoxm.

He’s scum here like he was in that game.

Gonna need more than that tbh

Xtoxm is a master of pretending to do shit while doing nothing. Its a playstyle that should always be pressured, regardless of alignment, especially when he actually hasn’t done much as of late.

Don't like the claim that xtoxm is scum and then reframing it as his playstyle needing to be pressured regardless of alignment. Looks like a weak attempt to look like he's casing someone/doing something.

Xtoxm *

- My experience with scum!xtoxm is him completely flaking out of the game and he hasn't done that yet so bonus points to him. His reads are bad here but he is actually efforting. I find it hard to read this slot because of the AtE with Prince.

i fooled him in LNT and his suspicion of me here just kinda feels genuine
i think both scum are in
liger, rei, dann, jingle, ddl, prince

Idk Im townreading rei and prince and kinda dolittle too
Couldnt scum mcqueen rly easily cite meta on you to push you
Its kindve an unexpected read to me since you just said his meta was bad

town apply meta badly very often tho, it doesnt make him scum
it makes sense for him to be initially sus imo
if he just sits on the tunnel, does nothing else and never reconsiders then perhaps he is scum

This town pings me though.

Don't feel super big vibes either way with xtoxm. Max flip might incriminate him.

Karmeleon *

Karmeleon's catch up around the time I left is obv town. There's no reason for scum to go to such lengths anyway because Karmeleon was getting away just fine with being town read and not doing much at all. From a scum position, that burst of activity could be saved for a much later stage of the game.

[Dannflor]

So my lynch preference is:

Maxwell >> mcqueen >> Vedith >> xtoxm

If Maxwell flips scum I think xtoxm or (possibly) DDL becomes likelier

If Maxwell were to flip town I think scum lies in mcqueen/Vedith

VOTE: Maxwell

[Dannflor]

Votecount 3.6

Xtoxm(3)

~ mcqueen⁽¹⁹⁾, Vedith⁽¹⁸⁾, Prince of Renais⁽⁸⁵⁾

Dannflor(3)

~ Extrapolated Eagle⁽⁶⁸⁾, Ankamius⁽⁷³⁾, MaxwellPuckett⁽⁴⁶⁾

Ankamius(3)

~ Karmeleon⁽⁸⁷⁾, Dannflor⁽³¹⁾, DrDolittle⁽⁸⁸⁾

Vedith(2)

~ Liger_Zero⁽⁶⁰⁾, NerfedBuJ⁽²¹⁾

DrDolittle(2)

~ RAS⁽³⁹⁾, Jingle⁽⁸⁷⁾

Prince of Renais(1)

~ Xtoxm⁽²¹⁾

MaxwellPuckett(1)

~ Reiuji Utsuho⁽⁵⁷⁾


Not Voting (0):

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2019-04-05 16:49:59)

I think this VC just feels so off because it's a lot of town pushing town IMO. Especially if xtoxm is town, scum probably feel good about having such a wide lynch pool. Even if he's scum, there are enough possible counter wagons that he's gotta feel safe.

I think Maxwell/Clemency slot is best lynch today. I was hesitant yesterday because it gave little information, but with Maxwell's posting it spews some about other players depending on his flip. Thoughts?

[Dannflor]

in fact he's still just sheeping her today

This is false.
At least see where I'm voting before posting this kind of stuff.

yes yes you're voting xtoxm now I'm sorry

Point is still, you're putting in a bare minimum effort today and I don't quite understand where your apathy is stemming from

Also no idea if you're voting xtoxm because you actually even think he's scum or not

It's like pulling teeth trying to get you to contribute reads/content and I know you can do better than that and I'm struggling with the town motivation behind your play rnow

[Dannflor]

hes not sheeping sho tho is he
we had identified each other as town

He was earlier in the day

not anymore apparently

[Dannflor]

i like how you manage to have exclusively lynchbaity slots as scumreads
very nice

I think I have good reasons to town read the other slots and I don't think that alone is cause enough for major concern

if you have problems with specific reads or logic then engage with that please, don't blanket discredit because you don't like how it feels

[Dannflor]

Point is still, you're putting in a bare minimum effort today and I don't quite understand where your apathy is stemming from

I mean, if you don't notice my change of vote then are you honestly going to notice if I put effort into today?

Keep being difficult, whatever

I've asked you for town reads

I'm trying to understand your thought processes

And you're giving me nothing

Please just help me read you

goodnight

[Dannflor]

I had not been in the thread since you replied to me about your Ank town read. I didn't even have cell service. How do you expect me to "followup or push you where you'd expect to be pushed" if I'm literally not here.

Yuck.

Thought you had
Idk how I was supposed to kno you didnt have service tho

Danns OMGUS might be fair I literally did skim his ISO based on the scumreads and came away not liking it
But I also like his dolittle opinions and rethinking on ank and enters (super towny) jam sessions
Also pleading w Vedith, kinda

Sorry if I wasn't clear, it doesn't matter whether you knew if I had access to the thread or not. What does matter is that I hadn't been in the thread for a while and hadn't responded to you yet. It's literally a made up reason for voting me. On top of that, you consistently made excuses like "shoulda spent more time on this" and put forth wishy washy reasons for voting that make it easy to either change your read or deflect responsibility for your vote. It's a way of pushing that feels like you were literally looking for reasons to join my wagon as opposed to actually thinking about it.

[Dannflor]

projection much lol

if you want to play against your win condition and attempt to grudge lynch me then fine. it's been established several times that it's not against the MS rules. just be honest to yourself and others about who you are.

ive already made this abundantly clear
but you continue to replace into my games on alts to try and deceive me

i dont want to play with you
fuck off

on a human level you are a disgusting person
shame khan didnt have enough evidence

VOTE: prince

everyones thoughts on this pls

I don't think a Prince wagon is taking off at this point or anytime soon. It's a vanity vote and xtoxm's focus is more on his dislike of Prince than pushing him as scum.

It's definitely an easy way to avoid joining an actual wagon, but I'm not going to try and read into the AtE itself as alignment indicative.

[Dannflor]

Do you just mindfully forget i called out grapes for a bad EE vote despite EE also being a scumread of some at the time. Sorry i wasnt online end of day1 to actually put a vote down? What do u want me to say?

Im doing nothing mostly because im lazy, but im also not interested in getting involved to the level that we’ve had multiple arguments throughout the game now.

Xtoxm is definitely deserving of a push and gives reads on you, prince, jingle, max , and a few others if lynched. Do u agree that lynching scum all the time is u realistic and therefore lynching fency players that give a ton of info is best? You could make the argument that lynching yourself or ddl is similar. However, i dont like some of ddl’s posts but others haven’t readily made me think hes scum, so idk. My only experience with him was in a marsthon game where it was all SKs, so i have no meta to go off of.

More later got stuff to do for now

I didn't forget, no. That's something I specifically didn't like from you that I mentioned before. You made a few posts where you called out grapes, who had a healthy wagon on him, but then voted elsewhere. You didn't have to be on at the end of the day to be on the wagon, it was weird that you didn't join then.

Eh, I don't like the strategy of information lynches. I think you should always go for scum and if that happens to be a good information lynch then that's just bonus points.

[Dannflor]

Im doing nothing mostly because im lazy

oof

I really don't think scum says shit like this

[Dannflor]

Prince is town in any and all cases.

well dont come crying to me when he endgames you

Why is he scum here? Personal feelings aside.

[Dannflor]

I think we can end the game before "must lynch PoR" paranoia levels get too high

[Dannflor]

Shrug yeah it was lazy oh well

Not made up though, stuck out to me at the time but I misremembered obvs

Id like to think as scum Id think more before I did something but idk its been a long time since ive been scum so who knows

Dont remember if I
UNVOTE:
But ill jump on the train

Hm possibly

The mistake itself may not be alignment indicative, I don't like the fact you felt you had to justify yourself so much moving onto me and the tone in which you did so, however.

[Dannflor]

Lmao
Eagles town for other stuff

Idk who scum is I thought Danns reaction to my bullshit was pretty good
Reis list is actually ok if u take out me and xtoxm

Rei's list: Maxwell > Vedith > xtoxm > DDL > Liger.
Your only votes: Dannflor > mcqueen > Rei

Unless you completely 180 on everyone you've voted/scum-read after you unvoted them, how is this list okay to you?

Additionally, don't you pretty strongly town read DDL, Maxwell?

[Dannflor]

And also bc the unvote mentions dolittle (as a bear but like still)

Its true his replies have been bad and i guess calling it confbias wasnt fully right

nvm I guess you changed your mind here?

[Dannflor]

No one has scum cased you. Which is only one reason on a list of reasons why your lynch isn't on the table.

[Dannflor]

What dialogue? Xtoxm has thrown significant shade towards your slot but most of the other discussion has been defending your slot and pushing against shade on you.

[Dannflor]

And even that I don't think is the majority of the thread

[Dannflor]

Rei's list: Maxwell > Vedith > xtoxm > DDL > Liger.
Your only votes: Dannflor > mcqueen > Rei

Unless you completely 180 on everyone you've voted/scum-read after you unvoted them, how is this list okay to you?

I have other reads besides players Ive voted and I realized Rei was rly towny after getting into the game more
Dann i just understood better from seeing him interact and esp his big reaction and OMGUS vote

But like, you said Rei's lynch list was good, despite only agreeing with 2/5ths of it?

Are you reading my posts now Liger
I dont rly care if I get lynched bc the points against me are tbh fair
But if I had to pick a scum on me its Liger
Shit Dann said about me was yeah bad, Ligers doing it here too, not to mention the vote on me amidst other players being suspicious of me
Like he just kinda slides in there w the vote while RAS and Danna are going off

Anything besides this that has you suspicious of Liger?

[Dannflor]

btw forget my previous read on Mcqueen I'm thinking he's town now

[Dannflor]

Dammit, that's like half the words I didn't want to read.

DDL- Tell me more, tell me more.

Other half of the read comes from a point Shoshin made before she died which made sense to me:

DDL's town because he's reading the game closely. The way that he went to check your reasoning, Dann, on Buj -- that doesn't come from scum very often. It showed he was looking into what you were saying on a deeper level. There's other things but that alone should convince you.

PoR is bleh. Right conclusion, wrong method. Shows both a lack of paranoia in his analysis of Prince's posts and a lack of knowledge of how Prince plays scum.

Could you elaborate on this? It's true I haven't played with scum!Prince before. I do know he has a highly respected scum game however and I think saying he could be scum here because he "has a good scum game" is weird because his play has been objectively sub-optimal as "great scum play." I don't think a player like him hard buses for no reason on D1, especially not in a mountainous setup like this. It doesn't make sense imo. Tell me where I'm wrong

MickyQ is BoP-y and I don't think MickyQ is a BoP player.

Yea I've rethought this

I'll dedicate a post to my read on you before I sleep tonight

[Dannflor]

Additionally, don't you pretty strongly town read DDL, Maxwell?

townlean rn
was thinking of vedith and liger when i said that i liked it

I think ive talked abt why the rest of the list is town for me but Im coming around on dolittle possible scum a bit

I'm confused as to what your read on DDL is.

[Dannflor]

Hey Ank/Enter, can one of you look at this game and tell me if you think Buj's ISO is similar to here?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10669500

[Dannflor]

For all the Alisae-slot-doubters, if this post is not gleaming with towniness I don't know what is.

+1

[Dannflor]

If you have the same view as I do, which is that prince, EE, and rei are all scum here without a shred of doubt, you would also believe that scum have already lost.

you meant to say town here, yea?

[Dannflor]

Hey Ank/Enter, can one of you look at this game and tell me if you think Buj's ISO is similar to here?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10669500

I don't use cold meta unless I have a very specific thing I'm looking for

it's useless otherwise

Only curious because that's my meta with him and his analysis there vs. analysis here feels very different to me.

[Dannflor]

Also I think mcqueen is still town?
I think he's just playing differently compared to others.

can you convince me on him or give me some quotes to look at?

he's been one of those players that's slipped under the radar for me so far

It's small, but I honestly think a majority of the time scum isn't gonna say stuff like this, particularly not in a game state like this one:

Im doing nothing mostly because im lazy, but im also not interested in getting involved to the level that we’ve had multiple arguments throughout the game now.

[Dannflor]

Hey Ank/Enter, can one of you look at this game and tell me if you think Buj's ISO is similar to here?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10669500

I can tell you they have the same writing style and are likely the same person

Thanks

Ank is right, I can't use that as a crutch to read Buj

I'll reread his ISO but I've never been pinged scum by him this game

[Dannflor]

What feels different to you?

It's gut mostly

In that game I zeroed in on him pretty quickly because he made lots of chunky posts that looked like analysis but overall contributed nothing

eg: his VC analysis in that game is laughable

I feel like I should've picked up on that same sort of thing if he were scum here, but maybe I haven't looked at his posts closely enough

[Dannflor]

knowing scum on d1 is >>rand to be scum

except lynching scum d1 is >>rand to be town!prince from what I've seen

[Dannflor]

Like ... one game meta is rarely enough.

It's hard to meta someone unless you know the person and why they do what they do.

2059 Ank is very different than Ank here in play style. She's much more reserved here, in 2059 she was pulling gambits and trying to at least somewhat take charge. She also is a lot less outspoken about her opinions here. This is going to happen because in 2059 town was pretty lost and pushing a town wagon the first half of the day she, was trying to redirect and change that, there was no one really sitting on her role. Here there are three people already pretty much doing the game solving thing and the game feels very under control, very different from 2059. But one town tell for Ank town is her confidence in her ability to be town even when people are screaming her, which is why she reacted like she did to me saying I was screaming her, even when I hadn't given a reason for my push.

Yea, I gotcha. I was unsettled by Ank at first just because her style was so different from my previous experience with her, but I should know that alone is not a scum tell.

Buj actually pointed out how my attitude here is pretty different from the game in which he played with me, because I too am approaching this game differently. I did give him slight town points for noticing that

[Dannflor]

Vedith can you engage with me on why you think I'm scum

I think you've scum read me in every game we've been in together regardless of either of our alignments

If you're town, I need to know you really believe the reasons you scum read me for here

[Dannflor]

Waste of time

I don't think so

[Dannflor]

I mean I'll be the first one to admit I've been fence sitting on Vedith all game

I don't know that he believes that makes me scum though

[Dannflor]

I've talked a lot about Vedith but I have certainly had trouble definitively town reading or scum reading him

[Dannflor]

I had 3 reasons.

I'm aware.

I can't address gut

Why do my posts not have a town motivation from your pov

[Dannflor]

Yea that's the trouble with mountainous especially with the lack of NK info

[Dannflor]

What do you like about Max?

[Dannflor]

Remember that time we did marathon mountainous?

it is forever etched into my memory

[Dannflor]

btw I'm working on that Jingle town case right now since I think he's a pet scum read for quite a few people

I still like a Max lynch most

I don't want a Vedith lynch rnow

[Dannflor]

"i'll leave this guy at null just cus ive been wrong on him so much"

That really doesn't seem like Vedith though, town or not

[Dannflor]

What makes Gamma scum?

[Dannflor]

Ignored actual game content to comment on non-game content and was super selective on what they actually responded to

problem is I can think of like 2 town!Gamma games off the top of my head where this is also true