Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Jingle]

Ego. Replacing in shortly.

[Jingle]

ouch. That hurts, ali.

[Jingle]

1. How comfortable do you feel playing town/scum?

What's a town? Is that what you call those people I nightkill?

2. What are you good at, what aren't you good at?

My talents are many and varied. Almost innumerable. Probably the most important is my incredible humility. I'm not good at nothing.

3. What part of playing mafia is most natural to you?

Winning. Also nightkilling people, lying, mechanically breaking setups, and gamethrowing in the interest of making something hilarious happen, like taking good conftown players into LYLO for shits and grins.

4. What is one thing about the current meta that you think should be changed?

I think meta is made to be broken. On the other hand, I like some very specific roles that I'd like to see more often.

5. How well do you know the other people in this game, and how excited are you to play?

6.

[Jingle]

I'm never lynching Jingle.

Is this a comment on my alignment or my mislynchability?

[Jingle]

Okay. Am I a visitor now?

[Jingle]

Alignment. From what I've seen in your games recently, you're surprisingly mislynchable.

Nah, the majority of my games I'm scumread for a long time and then get nightkilled because I'm 'threatening'. I don't actually get lynched very often.

[Jingle]

mafiascum's selfvoting meta is laughable

I remember time was it'd get you policy lynched.

[Jingle]

Me too.

[Jingle]

I don't think I want Shoshin lynched day1

Elaborate.

[Jingle]

I've never seen a town lose because of a self-vote.

I have. TBF, I've also seen town self hammer in LYLO.

[Jingle]

I already townread you so I can be a visitor. Also, I'm definitely going to be submitting visit actions to NSG, so she can blame that on you.

[Jingle]

Also what you called shitty poems is called Scarbrough Fair you unclassical misearable pile of secrets

I am never going to vote this. Not at all because of a read, I'm just thoroughly pocketed.

[Jingle]

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

Not true. There's at least 3 players on site that are town >> rand if they self vote.

[Jingle]

before I read anything gun to head what am I?

You're a person, apparently with a gun to your head. Put the gun down, Ali, it's not the answer.

[Jingle]

You're smart enough to realize I'm going to completely ignore what you tell me about your self voting habits.

[Jingle]

pedit: You're cute ali. As I said mixed feelings. The gun on your head is not helping.

Alisae is likely to be scum this game.

Strongly disagree
Disagree
maybe
eeeeeh
agree
strongly agree

where u at

RVS town on Ali.

[Jingle]

re; https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10785600

Alisae it feels a bit early for you give up trying to read me altogether?
I understand that grapes are inanimate objects but I am not.
Why the blind faith in xtom?

Cuz now that it's relevant and I'm thinking about it the couple games I've played with him was him-scum me-town... and gameboy advance mafia where he lead a mislynch on me...

VOTE: xtoxm

I literally just realized this isn't PB. It shouldn't have taken that long for me to read a username.

[Jingle]

Ok right before I leave

No one voted me in this game (in fact, I'm still yet to be voted) when I was doing nothing but spamming Scarborough Fair so...

(inb4 votes on me)

Oh, cool, I'm not gamethrowing by refusing to vote you. That's nice.

[Jingle]

VOTE: PVT

Shoshin wagon is boring. Not a comment as to it's validity, but it's hard to care about a wagon that doesn't have any glamour.

Start explaining vanity wagons, and I might pick one I like.

Someone should probably explain Shoshin wagon pre selfvote nonsense too.

[Jingle]

To ISO
Lycanfire
Xtoxm

To IGNORE
Gamma Emerald
NerfedBuJ

To TOWN
Alisae
Reiuji Utsuho
Vedith
Karmeleon

To SCUM
PvtUrist
Extrapolated Eagle

To ANNOY UNTIL THEY START MAKING ALIGNMENT NOISES
Shoshin
DoubtingThomas
Clemency
DrDolittle
grapes
mcqueen


Groups very vague, honestly don't have much to go on outside of my townreads.

[Jingle]

Weird, this thread feels like it's longer and less active than it is. Should maybe look into that.

[Jingle]

I've gotta leave for the night shortly. If anyone has questions/comments/concerns, I will leave a convenient circular file for your use.

[Jingle]

Jingle let's lynch vedith

I... What?

[Jingle]

explain pvt, EE, Alisa, and Vedit. Those are pretty much exact opposite of mine.

I mean.... Okay, but I'm gonna do all the other shits first.

[Jingle]

Jingle let's lynch vedith

I... What?

Pvt is fine too, we can get to vedith later if you want to.

Jingle: "I'm townreading Vedith"

EE: "Jingle, Let's lynch Vedith"

Jingle: "I wants me some of that sweet sweet drugs"

[Jingle]

Bopolis, Wiggles, Knights, Achromatic, Dyachei,

These are made up words. You made them up and you're hoping no one calls you on it. There's no way this is real people names.

[Jingle]

hi jingle

Sup. I'm not scumreading you yet, it feels weird.

[Jingle]

And scumcase on shoshin was because she ignored DT's attempts at engaging her directly. Like she got something to hide.

Pics? I wanna see the quality of your Kool-Aid before joining any cults.

[Jingle]

Okay, how is asking me to wagon one of the four people I'm townreading going to advance the game in any way?

Especially given that you didn't give me a reason that you wanted to wagon him?

[Jingle]

Also if you're asking for a reason I left it a bit back there, you should have seen it when you were catching up. I forgot what I said it was, though.

:thorface:

[Jingle]

PVT scumread: fluffposting, no content. Feels like he's trying hard to avoid stepping on toes. Notable posts: 47 402 462 467

EE Scumread: Cares a lot about self image. Does a lot, says a lot, wants to be in the spotlight, but I still can't remember anything that actually feels like he's accomplished something. Universal townready feel, but there's absolutely nothing in his ISO that looks unfakeable, nor do I see an attempt to push forward into anything real. Basically, he has his fingers in all the pies, but I don't think he's actually baking.

Vedith: Posts like these:

I don't think I want Shoshin lynched day1

So I pick a vote out if vanity and just let Shoshin get lynched for bad reasoning?

Additionally, I can grok his trajectory. There's a clear intention to his posts, and that intention is to figure out motivations. He's been proactive, a lot of what he says matches what I think, and he's got a townish air of "I'm going to try to gamesolve" while not seeming to give a shit that his stances aren't getting him towncred.

Alisae: Given Ali's experience with me this:

even more reason to lynch the slot tbh

ouch. That hurts, ali.

always scum dude <3

is >rand town.

Additionally, antagonistic and aggressive stance indicates an openness and willingness that strengthens that read.

[Jingle]

not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

Examples?

[Jingle]

Post 1 isn't a stance you'd take for towncred. He's not townreading Shoshin there, just saying that she's potentially useful as town and thus not a good lynch. That buys goodwill from no one if Shoshin flips scum and no one if shoshin flips town.

Post 2 is going against the flow of the thread, again in a way not likely to get towncred. What does scum Vedith gain from that post?

Both posts, on the other hand, are definitely possible from a town mindset. Not being sure about a player's alignment but wanting to keep them around because they're goodtown is a consumately townie thing to do.

And yeah, there's definitely value to townreading people for saying things and making stances that don't look like they're there to get towncred, just like there's value to scumreading people who look like they're taking stances solely for the sake of towncred.


But seriously, show me examples of the lies, the fake stances, the fake words, the lack of engagement, and the spineless lamistness. Show me the lack of engagement. I wanna see the colors of the wind, but you gotta lead me there Pocahontas.

[Jingle]

T-Thats not gonna make me townread you
B-Baka

Cool beans. Being townread is boring. I work way better when I don't get nk'd in the first couple of dayphases.

[Jingle]

Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Narp. There's lotsa people I'd never lynch D1. For example, the mod, RC, Elli, skitter, ETL....

Some people are more useful than others. If a player is very useful as town, I'm liable to leave them around a few days for two reasons: A. They're likely to eat a nightkill if they're town. B. If I'm wrong about them having more of their thoughts is better than having less of their thoughts.

[Jingle]

:thorface:

Your scumcase boils down to:

1. He asked that someone be prodded <48 hours into the game. Apparently because he wanted to be seen as proactive.
2. He asked someone to say he was town.
3. Something you say is NAI.













On a scale from 1 to Even, I just can't.

[Jingle]

Okay. Do you think he should have had a strong read on Shoshin at that point in the thread?

[Jingle]

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

Why? I don't have a read on Shoshin and I think the wagon on her is terrible.

[Jingle]

If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

Yes. I asked for examples. I asked for examples of these specific behaviors:

not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

Arguably, the prod DDL thing could be lamist. I disagree, but I can kind of see how that might be a thing a person would think. I haven't seen the rest. Pick a post that shows to me a lack of engagement or investment. Show me fake words and fake stances. Show me a lie.

[Jingle]

Would you agree with that and if so is there a reason for it?

I actually think on a whole I'm more serious, or did you forget about the 1/3 of my ISO that was discussing comic book deities, my claim to be Queen Latifah, and repeatedly insisting that I was a specific character despite having no way of confirming that information?

The difference, however can be attributed to the fact that this is an open where that was a closed, the comparable weakness of my reads, and the playerbase. I approach different people in different ways, and this game has none of {Thor, Nancy, EJ, Cerbs} all of whom have specific strategies attached to reading/manipulating them.

Jingle would your read on vedith change if he were someone else?

In other words how much of your read is based on his character?

Approximately 0%. I have a better read on your personality than Vedith's. The read is nonplayer specific.

Trying to dismantle a wagon this early in the game with no read on the player is like questioning an RVS vote. It's terribad.

Nope. Pushing back against RVS votes is how you get out of RVS.

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

We're at an impasse regarding those two posts. Talk to me about the lack of engagement. Show me any other lies he's said. Point me to the spinelessness.

[Jingle]

Hey, I've only posted 40 times in the last 12 hours.

[Jingle]

Questioning RVS =/= bad does not imply that all RVS should be questioned.

Dismantling the argument behind RVS votes is in fact pushing back against RVS votes.

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

PEdit: I'm saying the two are fundamentally the same thing. Instead of taking the stance that Shoshin is scum or town, Vedith took the stance that the wagon on her was bad. That is in fact still taking a stance, and there's a disconnect between us where apparently you think saying a wagon is bad without having a read on the player said wagon is on is scummy.

[Jingle]

Tbh yeah I did forget that. Your ISO as a whole I would classify as very serious. You spent a whole lot of time trying to figure stuff out. You unironically counted every occurence of the word 'but' in my ISO because you thought it was scum-indicative. That's some serious shit.

I counted every instance of the word but in your ISO in 8 games. Get it right.

[Jingle]

No. Because there's still information to analyze.

Is your reason for voting Shoshin dumb? Should Vedith have a read on Shoshin? Does Vedith have a different person he's interested in pursuing?

How is what Vedith is doing any different than if he'd come into the thread without a read on Shoshin and blindly sheeped you for pressure?

[Jingle]

And also no one votes Jingle because they don't like my avvy. My avvy's are boss.

[Jingle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

Counterpoint:

Why is shosin still alive?

4 more votes needed.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Shoshin isn't today's lynch.
I'd rather away from DT but I'll lynch DT over Shoshin.

I didn't like the fuel on the fire saying that a game we just had was almost lost from self voting.
It's a different situation all together, and as said, both players to do it were town so BuJ should surely have the mentality that it's a townier thing to do.

VOTE: NerfedBuJ

While pushing against the Shoshin wagon, Vedith was offering alternatives.

[Jingle]

I've already agreed that we're at an impass there. I think both of those stances are more likely town than scum. I've stated why I think that. I don't find the alternative presented to be more compelling, and honestly I'm not sure why anyone would think I should.

More to the point, I think a lack of read on a player is only AI when there is a reasonable expectation of a read on said player, and I think a lack of read on Shoshin was more or less expected at that point in the game. I would find it more scummy if Vedith DID have a read there.

[Jingle]

Eh, that part is kind of off topic. I'll answer your question even though you imply I was pushing shoshin, from which I can infer that your skim was to skimmy. If he had come in the thread and blindly sheeped me on himself or frozen angel , depending on when you're saying he came in at, it would have helped me read frozen Angel a lot better, because FA responds with tells that I can read better when she thinks I'm making an argument people believe against her. If he had sheeped me on himself, I would have the same discussion with him that I had with shoshin. If he had sheepd DT on Shoshin, it probably would have helped because it would indicate the Shoshin wagon was gaining traction and she might be more likely to town spew, which would have helped me read her a bit better and it would show me he's interested in finding other players alignments, not acting from a place of certainty.

It's largely irrelevant who he was fighting/sheeping wrt the Shoshin wagon. And no, I don't really remember the wagon comp because it was boring. It was a boring wagon, going nowhere, and producing nothing exceptionally juicy.

As for how Vedith's stance has influenced my reads, it's certainly helping with reading you.

[Jingle]

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

I frankly don't care if you were pushing Shoshin. It's largely irrelevant. What I do care about is why you're so insistent that Vedith have a read one way or the other on her before taking any stance.

I'm rather interested that you, who apparently (I'm just guessing and don't particularly care if I'm right here) don't have a read on Shoshin and didn't take a stance, think that Vedith taking said stance is discouraging activity.

[Jingle]

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

Again, it doesn't look like it led nowhere to me. It looks like it led right here. With people taking stances, interacting, and generally becoming more readable.

[Jingle]

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

I agree. I disagree that taking a stance on the argument is bad. I disagree that he should have taken a stance on Shoshin. I also disagree that taking a stance against a wagon on someone you don't have a read on is bad.

You seem to be under the belief that I agree that saying "Yo guys, your wagon sucks" is anti town. It isn't. At all.

[Jingle]

The funny part is that you think this conversation is about Vedith's alignment.

[Jingle]

Oh, no, that's not a quip. I just think the conversation has gotten to the point where I have enough to look at. If I was interested in determining Vedith's alignment through this exchange, I would have needed him to be involved. I can't speak to his motivations from any place of surety.

What I can do is keep you talking to see if what you're saying seems to be consistent and if you actually believe what you're talking about. I'm leaning towards bullshitting, but I need to step back and look at the whole exchange again.

[Jingle]

I do not oppose Buj pressure.

I endorse PVT pressure.

I haven't had enough time to look over EE, and I probably won't do so today. I am outright admitting that his accusation of responding back without really considering his argument is true though, FWIW.

[Jingle]

I do not oppose Buj pressure.

I endorse PVT pressure.

I haven't had enough time to look over EE, and I probably won't do so today. I am outright admitting that his accusation of responding back without really considering his argument is true though, FWIW.

pvt hasnt posted in 2 days. is it worth it put pressure on someone who isnt even here?

Yes. Either he shows up and responds, or he replaces out and I look elsewhere. Given we're 4 IRL days into D1, this is a perfect use of my time.

[Jingle]

Not really, no. I'm content watching things unfold atm.

[Jingle]

I think Shoshin is the kind of player who is far easier to read if you ignore her and am frustrated that she's the center of attention.

who's PB?

Pink Ball. He also has a Kirby avatar. I think that might be the only think you have in common.

[Jingle]

Telling other people to ignore me in a game agmbout engaging people is disrespectful to the ability of the other person to think for themselves, inconsistent with your mindset, and overall an ignorant way to play. Please stop.

I assume no one can think for themselves. I'm infrequently pleasantly surprised to be wrong.

[Jingle]

FA's replace out was a little oversensitive imo, although I understand that some people don't have particularly thick skins. I wouldn't blame Shoshin for DT at all.


I'm not dropping my PVT read yet. PR seems like I don't need to prod him tho.

VOTE: Gemerald

[Jingle]

I think Shoshin is the kind of player who is far easier to read if you ignore her and am frustrated that she's the center of attention.

So you're

1) not committing to a read
and
2) suggesting that everyone doesn't go after her

seem about right?

also, you weren't responding to anything that happened in the last 10 pages but this is what you immediately pop in for?

Yeah that sums it up

Do you think it is likely Shoshin becomes easier to read when pressured?

[Jingle]

Jingle doesn't scumread people for not committing to a read, we went over this.

Not accurate. It's not the read or the lack of read that is noteworthy. It is the comparison of whether the read matches what should be there. If someone has a read that is unreasonable to have that's a thing to check. If someone doesn't have a read when they very much should, that's a thing to check. If someone doesn't have a read on someone who's been NAI that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[Jingle]

we're not lynching gamma or clem

Why?

[Jingle]

Let's ignore EE for now. Knowing he's Enter makes me feel a lot better about him flipping town. He's just bad at the game.

1. Uncalled for.
2. Only partially true, my play when I came back from an almost three year hiatus as Enter was rusty, and I've never played a PR before so I made some dumb mistakes, but
3. I'm not overall bad at the game, and that was a pretty bad statement to make if you've only played one game with me and you haven't seen a repeated instance of anti-town play (which you wouldn't have, because I haven't done that as Enter)
4. If you're a loopdan alt, let me know in a PM and I'll replace out immediately. Otherwise I'll give you time to get it through your head that disagreeing with you is not being bad at mafia and maybe fix some of your double standards and other stuff you've got going for you

Lots of under-handed fuckery going on in this game. Uncalled for shit like threatening to out people's alts and making passive-aggressive comments with no purpose. Double-standards, thickheaded ignorance, and self-righteousness abound.

I'm weighing my options right now

we're not lynching gamma or clem

Alright, who are you thinking about other than Jingle/Shosh? I agree the interaction there is awkward, but my read on shoshin is a lot of "wow you're a bad person doing a lot of anti-town things"

And for some reason I keep thinking that she's got it stuck in her head that doing anti-town things is townie, and for that reason I excuse it. Can you counter?

80% sure Shoshin is the main and fairly newbish.

[Jingle]

we're not lynching gamma or clem

Why?

because we're killing you then your buddy then we'll see what town does after you guys kill me n2.
I've already been outed in scumchat, correct?

No idea. I don't generally althunt unless someone suggests that I should do so to read them.

[Jingle]

Also this is using information against Jingle that he has no way of knowing that I would know but just describing Shoshin as 'fairly newbish' is a hard scumclaim. he knows that she's highly respected.

Highly respected =/= no newbish.

newbish just means she's likely unaware of ingrained interactions between people. She plays relatively few games and thus has relatively little experience with individual players.

I'm not saying she's not respected. (Although I personally don't see her as the boogeyman she's been described to me as.)

[Jingle]

If she were skitter I'd have a 100% read on her.

[Jingle]

Jingle is 100% sure that she is the main and that she is a strong town player. He's just saying that to deflect her being BoP scumread.

The lack of 100% is because she had her first game as Labyrinth AFAIK. That means it is possible she's an alt who is well hidden.

[Jingle]

Should I bother althunting you PR?

[Jingle]

Hm. You've made me curious.

[Jingle]

I am now confused as to how I'm supposed to know who you're an alt of. You have 0 completed games.

[Jingle]

Question: Have you accused me of alt hunting you before on a different account, PR? Cause I think I know who you are and if so I'm pretty annoyed you replaced in.

[Jingle]

Eh. You'd know what I was referring to if you were them.

Okay then. How much experience do you have with me?

[Jingle]

I promise that's the last question. I'm just curious as to whether I should expect accuracy from you.

Honestly, you not answering doesn't change much.

[Jingle]

my accuracy should be a fairly hard tell as to my alignment, yeah.

Hm.

Why should I have a read on Shoshin at this point?

[Jingle]

cute, but not an answer.

[Jingle]

I mean... You posted fire emblem memes, that's always a plus.

[Jingle]

So, in summary if I'm understanding this correctly:

Shoshin voted EE for doing a scummy thing but didn't show awareness of why it was scummy nor the potential town motivation?

[Jingle]

If serious, please don't out alts without permission. It's rude.

[Jingle]

lycan probtown.

[Jingle]

[v’]jingle[/v]

[Jingle]

Why should I have a read on Shoshin at this point?

Still wanna know, btw.

[Jingle]

Don't worry, Alisae. It's fine. You can vote me.

[Jingle]

the difference being I replaced out of the 2nd one for the exact same reason why I can't get into the game here

Lack of Jingle being awesome?

[Jingle]

I don't wanna get into it.
I just wanna sheep the guy who sounds smart.

ngl, I can behind this rn.

[Jingle]

Thats mumford and sons, right?

[Jingle]

I can always get behind a Jingle wagon. It makes the game so much easier.

[Jingle]

Are you saying comparing someone to Mumford and Sons is an insult? I'll fite u.

[Jingle]

Odd. I actually have a decent number of townreads. Not many scumreads though.

[Jingle]

Unsure about Buj, DT, DDL, but yeah, that looks aight to me.

[Jingle]

Don't give up your scumread on me. It makes me smile.

[Jingle]

newbish

Again, newbish =/= bad.

[Jingle]

you might have been a factor to why I replaced out as well if I chose to do that

Don't do that. You're one of the fun ones.

[Jingle]

I'm not 100% convinced you're not who I thought you were, but if not, then sure.

[Jingle]

I don't dislike a grapes lynch.

VOTE: Grapes

[Jingle]

sup Dann. You scum again?

[Jingle]

DDL: RE: Buj.

Are you saying those posts are a reason to scumread Buj, or that they're not a reason to townread Buj? Additionally, why those four posts?

[Jingle]

See you guys in 48 hours.

[Jingle]

I must praise whoever the doctor is in this game.
Wonderful job so far.

No doctor, just a full bp nexus.

VOTE: DDL

[Jingle]

ya guys
haven't you seen those things called jokes
its one of those things

I don't get it. Maybe it'll be funnier if you explain it?

[Jingle]

Full disclosure, I have no idea why we lynched grapes.

[Jingle]

Don't bring anyone past L-3 before I'm back

So, guys. Who wants to put PR at L-3 for giggles?

[Jingle]

Hey Dann, you gonna get vigged while nk-ing me? Cause I feel like you gonna get vigged while nk-ing me.

[Jingle]

Grapes wagon is just eh.

Grapes wagon is just eh.

Is your problem with it Grapes or the people voting Grapes?

Grapes. Like hes not obv town but there are much better lunches in the horizon. Plus the speed that the wagon developed smells a bit opportunistic, like people wanting off attn on Buj

Defending grapes by pushing elsewhere, not defending grapes, btw.

[Jingle]

But I'm booooored.

Also, pretty sure I just said I suspect DDL and Dann in a round about fashion.

[Jingle]

Still think ali town, btw.

[Jingle]

Arbitrary Townreads for at least another day:
Reiuji Utsuho
Karmeleon
mcqueen

Actual Townreads:
Prince of Renais
Alisae
Extrapolated Eagle

Scumreads:
DrDolittle
Dannflor

Fuckit, who cares:
Shoshin
NerfedBuJ
Lycanfire
Clemency
Vedith
Xtoxm
Gamma Emerald

Top of each group stronger, roughly.

[Jingle]

Sorry, this about all the give a fuck I can manage. I'll care more during late game if they leave me alive though!

[Jingle]

You wanna see the reason I'm scumreading him?

[Jingle]

btw does anyone have a read on Karmeleon? if so, how'd you get it?

He asked for a townread, and so I gave it to him. Locktown.

[Jingle]

I think that would be very bad for the game.

Memes >> game integrity

[Jingle]

Full disclosure, I have no idea why we lynched grapes.

Even before I caught up with the game, I would have lynched him just for #1353.

In this post he:

- Forces an awkward transition from Buj to Eagle

- Gives unsubstantiated town reads to three of the people pushing him

- Ignores the

actual

worst vote on his own wagon

#####

Side note: If anyone still didn't think Jingle was obv town the above post should convince you. Scum would be milking all the town cred they could get out of being on their buddy's wagon, especially considering this game has 3 scum and one of them dropped Day 1. Scums are in a bad spot. If a scum bussed here (which I think is possible), they did so to set themselves up in a better position later. Jingle is actively working against this scum win condition.

Scum post.

[Jingle]

Eh, lycan is potential scum. Can't remember why I was townreading him yesterday.

Why do the D's seem town to you?

(Apparently, I do have fucks to give. Who knew?)

[Jingle]

kk.

why me? I gotta say I'm curious.

[Jingle]

VOTE: Dannflor

Feel more surer here. No opposed to bear lynching though, if that's the way the wind blows.

[Jingle]

Your catchup and the subsequent townreads mirrors No deadlines almost perfectly.
You scumcased the dead player, did not vote the dead player, and then said that scum on the dead player's wagon would probably grab for towncred by explaining their reads as opposed to sheeping.
You handwaved the bit about DDL by saying Vedith was doing the same thing then deciding Vedith was town after Karm weighed in without actually addressing the bit about DDL.
You seem overconcerned about how people see you.

A hint: engaging me over you isn't a good way to get me to change my read. Engaging me over not you might work though.

[Jingle]

First bit is more asking why to vote than DDL was, and doesn't suggest alternatives. Much better than DDL.

Second bit is NAI. Vedith joking like that means Vedith and grapes have history, but it doesn't say much about Vedith.

I remember a gut town read on him.

And, to be clear... I didn't think you deserved to be townread for your catchup in deadlines, either. I think it's a very easy string of posts to townread, but that they're actually NAI. Outside of DDL who is scum?

[Jingle]

The only thing that stops me from engaging with people is apathy.

[Jingle]

I have ~ 100% correct read rate on dannflor

now tbf one of the games i was scum w/ him in

and the other two/three were marathons

But he's town

pretty sure of it.

and I'm not lynching outside of my six

How the fuck do you agree with this, mr. carman?

[Jingle]

I have ~100% correct read rate on Alisae.
now tbf I've never actually played a game with Alisae
I've just modded or spectated them
But e's town
pretty sure of it
and I'm only lynching people I'll vote

[Jingle]

So quit your mumbling about being wrong on Dann. I can go deeper in if I want to, but you're obviously just letting the paranoia get to you. I've spent quite a bit of time w/ Dannflor, quit treating my three + games of experience like it's nothing.

no u

[Jingle]

cause it's slightly meme-y

[Jingle]

Differences between catch up this game and catch up in No Deadlines:
1. Effort: A lot more into No Deadlines because Image is Everything as scum
2. Stances: Here he posts a lot of thoughts that seem genuine and uninformed, ND he was informed but trying to take somewhat controversial stances
3. Vote: Here he unvotes because he doesn't know who scum is so he doesn't know how to position himself to seem town (grapes is popular wagon, he questions why people are joining it and tries to understand it), No Deadlines he placed a vote because he knows who scum is and how to put some distance in between scum and himself (sheep was the popular wagon, he moved his vote from Nancy, town, to sheep, scum)

Similarities.

Surface level analysis that is entirely fakeable and subsequent townreads. I'm not saying the catchup makes him scum, but it's most certainly not enough to townbin him.

He most certainly cares about his image, and if he doesn't I'd suggest rereading his ISO, or alternatively just the one post that is the bulk of the reason I'm scumreading him.
Stances is a thing, so quote some stances you think are town.
You're assuming a motivation and basing evidence around that. Additionally, in No Deadlines, he voted sheep, true. I was pretty much the only person who wanted a sheep lynch, and there was no way that wagon was going through that day. I was also obvtown AF. Sheeping obvtown on a lynch that straight isn't gonna happen is a pretty reasonable thing to do as scum. It's also a thing that he couldn't have possibly have done here.


Also, I in no way support the assumption that one game where you were scum partners and several marathons makes you capable of reading him.

[Jingle]

I'm casing Shoshin today btw

ngl, I kinda dig the Shoshin vote. We've given her space and she's done fuckall with it.

[Jingle]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Jingle]

DrDolittle
Shoshin
Clemency
Lycanfire
Dannflor
Extrapolated Eagle
Vedith

Okay let's do this differently

Of this list, I feel fairly confident that Eagle is just being derptown, and so would not lynch. As much as you don't want to hear it, I'd definitely lynch you if you were still around on the day before LYLO. Of the remainder, Vedith is >rand town in my eyes, but I think he needs to be more town to be able to survive forever.

Of the people not on this list, my lack of a scumread on Xtox wigs me out. I also feel like GE isn't a bad inclusion and Buj has been kinda meh in presence. Like, I know he's posted things, but those things elude me.

[Jingle]

Cause there's a slight chance that scum takes the willingness to lynch you as a reason to keep you around and a slighter chance that you are actually scum and someone reads my ISO after you kill pretty much the only person in the game who would do so.

Pretty sure I know who you are, btw.

[Jingle]

imo, townness of the hammer is roughly equal to fakeness of the confusion.

[Jingle]

Why are you voting me, Jingle?

1 Parts PR thinks your scum.
1 Parts Keep PR mollified so we don't toxic up the thread.
1 Parts You haven't towntold despite the room I was giving you.
1 Parts IDGAF.

Mix it all up and you get a big batch of I only tryhard in games that come down to the wire.

[Jingle]

Generally, a D1 quickhammer on scum is >rand town.
OTOH,

Fuck speed of wagon



VOTE: Grapes

L-1

Looks fake AF. So no towncred given. For reference, that's a hammer that's claimed as a L1 immediately after the L1 on the same page as the votecount stating L2.

[Jingle]

Post Preview.

I'm not saying it makes him scum. I'm saying that there is a reasonable doubt that it makes him town.

[Jingle]

scum way more interesting in this setup.

[Jingle]

does that mean I get to kill Jingle tomorrow?

nah, but you get to try.

[Jingle]

I believe PR scumreads Shoshin here regardless of both of their alignments for :reasons:, FWIW.

[Jingle]

maybe you would have held your fucking tongue.

Nope. I'm a cheeky bastard.

Also, I have no proof the marines or seals are capable of killing me, and will continue to have no proof for the rest of my life.

[Jingle]

that's an incredibly stupid thing to say.

Not really, no. You know why, and if you want we can talk about it in a while. But you're smart enough to know it's true.

I don't think you're wrong. I just also think you would be in that headspace regardless of what else had happened this game.

[Jingle]

I believe PR scumreads Shoshin here regardless of both of their alignments for :reasons:, FWIW.

feels like these kind of comments are only necessary if PR survives the night

which honestly probably never happens

Not really, no. It's the kind of comment designed to throttle votes onto shoshin so that we don't get a speed wagon and have more to analyze. I just gave people a valid way to not want to be on the wagon, and I want to see what comes of that.

Has pretty much nothing to do with PR.

Also, I'd totally not kill him here, because mafia is more fun when it's hard.

[Jingle]

this is a list of names randomly thrown together of people who post kinda weird in ways that make them slightly easier to lynch

This, btw, means you have no idea how PR approaches mafia.

[Jingle]

Also, I'd totally not kill him here, because mafia is more fun when it's hard.

WAT

I prioritize Mechanics>Strength of Play when killing.

I prioritize potential fun >> Mechanics when killing.

To that end, I don't think I've ever killed any of my 3 favorite scummers, and I've taken strong conftown into LYLO over making the optimal kill because it's less boring.

[Jingle]

God no, Elli's boring to argue against.

[Jingle]

why are we even having this conversation

mostly cause I'm bored.

[Jingle]

The one I can think of off the top of my head is old, but I'll dig up the link.

[Jingle]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=32147

Took thor conftown to LYLO. Lost miserably. Had an amazing time arguing with Thor and RayFrost.

[Jingle]

why are we even having this conversation

Besides, if I can convince people that it's reasonable you'll be alive tomorrow, you might be alive tomorrow.

[Jingle]

So would you act this way with Ellibereth?

God no, Elli's boring to argue against.

[Jingle]

Disagree that elli cheats. Agree that NSG far more fun to play against.

[Jingle]

Do EEEEET.

[Jingle]

That was a direct response to 1751, but I think I've had that discussion before with both of you and there's really no reason to have it again.

I think Elli's method of playing mafia is boring, but fine.

[Jingle]

PR scumhunts primarily through associatives.

And

FOS Enter

.

[Jingle]

This is my case.
It is probably not good enough to do the job because I'm not that good at this type of thing.
But that is my attempt to explain why Jingle is scum to the best of my ability.

Can't really argue the FA stuff, but the me stuff I definitely can.

Yo, PR. Remember the game you played with meETL hydra? Remember how I treated you pretty much exactly like I have here? Cause I don't want to out your alt to defend myself, but you should pretty easily be able to support the lackadaisical poking as something I do as both alignments.

[Jingle]

Question: Have you accused me of alt hunting you before on a different account, PR? Cause I think I know who you are and if so I'm pretty annoyed you replaced in.

This, btw, was a correct guess. I tend to avoid games with PR's main because we can get pretty toxic with each other if we start fighting. This game has kinda shown me we can be mellow in the same thread tho, so maybe I'll play more games with him in the future. Maybe it's because he realizes I don't hate him now? Iunno.

[Jingle]

Eh I'm cool with delaying the lynch a couple days. And shoshin, if you want me to pay attention to your reads later, maybe spend the time you have left scumhunting.

[Jingle]

let me get this straight cause my reading comprehensive of big posts is bad. people right now (ali and pr i guess) are pushing for a shoshin/jingle solve, right? like they are not independently scum? or are they also that

Ali thinks I'm independently scum and is sheeping PR on Shoshin.

PR thinks I am independently town with terrible associatives with Shoshin, and thus should be lynched if she red flips.

I'm pretty sure that both are town themselves, and PR knows enough about me to know that telling the difference between scum and town me isn't an easy job.

[Jingle]

If I thought I was going to put effort in later I'd probably disagree with that sentiment.

Still, I'd prefer if we swept before I had to eat a lynch.

[Jingle]

if prince is town, he is the most likely primed
if hes arso we delete an arso
depriving scum of primed targets gives us extra mislynches and is the best strategy in this game
therefore prince is the best lynch mechanically
jingle back me up

This is an incorrect application.

Lynching two primed players buys an extra mislynch, yes. However, lynching two primed players is only helpful in the case that there is a reasonable fear that those players are mafia. Lynching 2 players who wouldn't otherwise be lynched because they're likely to be primed does get us a mislynch, but it also wastes two lynches.

The thing to consider is that from scums PoV, they should ignite if we're likely to lynch someone they've already primed. Not the other way around.



Isn't Thigh Draug Draug's wife? Coulda sworn he's married to Nephenee in Path of Radiance.

[Jingle]

The fact that Jingle isn't voting Shoshin right now is suspect.

VOTE: Shoshin

Two problems with that theory. I am voting shoshin. I've had other priorities since BoP ended.

[Jingle]

because of the mechanism of the game, lylo-s are weird this game. The asserting "shouldn't be allowed to live till lylo" needs to be taken more seriously.

@mod v/la 3 days till I sort my life out

Not really, you just subtract 2 per day from the most recent ignition. Today instead of being 14v2 we're functionally 13v2. That's 5 Days til LYLO.

[Jingle]

But yeah, Shoshin here is very similar to shoshin in BoP, and there are specific posts that I doubt town her makes, particularly while playing in that game.

[Jingle]

btw who all said the thing about scum having given up is stupid or scum
scum dont give up d1
id still put it >50% scum win this game given all vanilla

Setup is probably significantly townsided, actually. Scum needs 6 mislynches, even without the potential fora doc via misprimes. Their advantage is in the lack of flips, but we have enough day phases to make up for it.

[Jingle]

If it helps I enjoy playing with you and hope you enjoy playing with me. I know it probably doesn't.

[Jingle]

Do you want to Hydra with me for the next BoP?

Yes, but somehow I think being in a hydra and modding the same game might bring forth accusations of cheating.

[Jingle]

FWIW, the frustration here is real. It's something I'm actually good at catching. The problem is that it's NAI.

Scum shoshin feels demotivated because she's coming out of a scumloss into a losing situation and feels like there's nothing she can do.
Town shoshin feels demotivated because she just lost a game and feels like she has no way to influence this one because it seems people have already made up their minds.

It's a particularly difficult form of ATE to deal with for me because I KNOW it's genuine, and more to the point I'm mostly lynching Shoshin because it's easy. There's a town explanation to everything I think is slightly scum indicative here. The read on her is similar to the slight scum read I had for the first half of her play in RC's Upick.

But I'm still voting her. I'm voting her because I think that even if she's town, clarification on the original interactions is valuable. Despite being unsure here, I think it is the right lynch. And I'm sorry that I think that, but I'm not going to back down from it.

[Jingle]

If Lycan's town, Clem's scum. Don't think that needs explanation.

Can't remember much of either, tbh, but in a vacuum I lynch clem first.

[Jingle]

Why would you ever lynch me just because it's easy, Jingle? What the fuck?

I'm the person you leave alive because if I'm town I'm very likely going to vote scum before LYLO.

Every game you've been in with me, what has happened? People call me scum, and then I vote the scum before my time of lynching, and then scum lose. Why would you get rid of me before I even have a chance?

FMPOV I have three options:

Shut up and let PR have his way (which is the path of least resistance).
Passively object to the lynch which gains town nothing.
Tryhard.

This is an open setup with a D1 scumlynch. That's completely outside of my town interest zone. I'll do what I can, but I know I'm not going to care enough about this game to push a wagon over a PR endorsed wagon. It's just not gonna happen.

Ideally for me, this game ends quickly or I get shot early. Hell, I'm probably not going to try hard enough to derail the inevitable D3/4 'JINGLE ALWAYS SCUM!!!!!' wagon.

[Jingle]

I sound like bored AF Jingle.

Think back to 8-ball and tell me I can't tryhard as scum.

[Jingle]

It's time for you to tryhard, Jingle.

I'm tryharding and I shouldn't be with how unfairly I've been treated. If you can't try hard, why the fuck even replace into this game?

I liked the playerlist.

You were unable to sustain your effort in 8-ball beyond D1, Jingle.

Bullshit. I had the second most posts. I lost that game because my partner was nowhere to be found and town was stacked. I never stopped trying.

Lowest motivation game I can think of recently would be Paris Mafia, up until contown pissed me off by saying I was bad at setup spec.

[Jingle]

PR is now voting you so this is the time to try hard

Why? FMPOV there's a bunch of mutually identified obvtown and the players I'm most worried about being able to deepwolf are obvious nightkills, and thus CAN'T deepwolf.

I don't think letting myself get lynched loses the game. And I don't care about being mislynched. :shrug:

[Jingle]

Rei town.

[Jingle]

because it's playing against your win condition if you don't try to give us at least SOMETHING to work with

Like if you don't want to play, why are you here

The argument that I'm not giving you something to work with is dumb. I've put my speculations out there. I've given reads.

Hell, bored Jingle has been more productive than half of the playerlist.

[Jingle]

Lemme look through my game history and compare tryhard to bored. Probably easier than going by alignment, tbh.

[Jingle]

I just realized the best example of town me being like this is hammering mastina in no deadlines despite townreading her. Because I didn't want to bother pushing my correct scumreads on you or sheep because nancy was being a PITA. Similarly to how pushing reads PR disagrees with makes him a PITA.

[Jingle]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=79020 - Only Tryhard post lynch
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78019 - Not even a real game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77108 - Broke a setup, should have won after Eragon and thor pushed me into giving a shit by assuming bad math, but the conftown failed to hammer, halving our EV and forcing the tie
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77420 - about a third of my posts here (and in the mason thread) were demands that the mod flip me as Queen Latifah
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=76002 - I spent maybe two pages cementing bad associatives then laid down and died because scum had the game in the bag.







https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78228 - Tryhard in doomed slot
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78023 - Tryhardish, but I kinda just gave up on pushing scum reads and hammered a townread for game tempo reasons
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77903 - Tryhard, also fuck playing against shoshin, nsg and relly in a nightless
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77055 - Mixed bag. Tryhard mechanically, but I straight up didn't give a shit as soon as the game looked over. (Read: mechanical 1v1 with the last scum). Proven by the fact that I didn't even double check who submitted an action when and thought I was in an additional 1v1 with Beavis and Butthead avvy guy whose name escapes me. Starts with a V I think.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76181 - Another mixed bag. I was supposed to low effort this game, but I spent a lot of time fighting RC. And then got shot when I paid enough attention to actually be useful the night after investigative RC got shot. This is half of the reason I didn't /in for this when asked by Ali, btw, although this game tells me me and RC can not be dicks to each other, so I'm not going to avoid games with him.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=74422 - I tryharded the shit out of D1. And led three consecutive town lynches. Unfortunately, I was town.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76042 - I tryharded the shit out of this whole game and would have won if Ank didn't replace lynchbait and RNG didn't hate me.


There, every game Jingle played in on the first page of my bookmarks tab.

[Jingle]

pain in the ass I would assume

Aye.

[Jingle]

Arbitrary Townreads for at least another day:
Reiuji Utsuho
Karmeleon
mcqueen

Actual Townreads:
Prince of Renais
Alisae
Extrapolated Eagle

Scumreads:
DrDolittle
Dannflor

Fuckit, who cares:
Shoshin
NerfedBuJ
Lycanfire
Clemency
Vedith
Xtoxm
Gamma Emerald

Top of each group stronger, roughly.

Still fairly accurate. I feel like I might be paranoia-ing about Dann, but he's definitely not townbin.

[Jingle]

I'd skip fallout. It got pretty toxic.

Oh, also I was Impossibear in that one.

[Jingle]

<3 Ali.

[Jingle]

I honestly don't think it should. I'm waffling a bit on Vedith, and I feel like I should have a strong read there, but I don't. I'd vaguely put him as town atm, but in the end it's not really strong enough to matter.

I've explained why I think you could go both ways.

Lycan, Clem and GE have done fuckall.

Buj is another that I feel like I should have a read on, but don't.

None of my townreads have weakened.

If you feel I need to change the list, Dann would be in a category somewhere between scum and fuckit, and Vedith would be in a category somewhere between fuckit and town.

[Jingle]

Full disclosure, I have no idea why we lynched grapes.

Even before I caught up with the game, I would have lynched him just for #1353.

In this post he:

- Forces an awkward transition from Buj to Eagle

- Gives unsubstantiated town reads to three of the people pushing him

- Ignores the

actual

worst vote on his own wagon

#####

Side note: If anyone still didn't think Jingle was obv town the above post should convince you. Scum would be milking all the town cred they could get out of being on their buddy's wagon, especially considering this game has 3 scum and one of them dropped Day 1. Scums are in a bad spot. If a scum bussed here (which I think is possible), they did so to set themselves up in a better position later. Jingle is actively working against this scum win condition.

Scum post.

Your catchup and the subsequent townreads mirrors No deadlines almost perfectly.
You scumcased the dead player, did not vote the dead player, and then said that scum on the dead player's wagon would probably grab for towncred by explaining their reads as opposed to sheeping.
You handwaved the bit about DDL by saying Vedith was doing the same thing then deciding Vedith was town after Karm weighed in without actually addressing the bit about DDL.
You seem overconcerned about how people see you.

A hint: engaging me over you isn't a good way to get me to change my read. Engaging me over not you might work though.

[Jingle]

Basically, I disagree with townreading a player who is clearly capable of faking a gamesolvey catchup, 1478 has a clear scum motivation, he's more concerned with his self image than I would expect from town Dann given my impression of his character (No, I'm not going to do the meta dive required to check), he has bad associatives with DDL.

[Jingle]

What are the chances everyone who has posted in the last several pages is town imploding on itself and scum have lurked out of the game/are hoping we destroy ourselves?

VERY confident there is at most 1 scum in the active posters.

Shoshin/You isn't S/S
Shoshin/Vedith isn't S/S
You/Vedith isn't S/S

[Jingle]

Endorsing information lynches isn't scummy.

[Jingle]

I mean... She's still a viable lynch. And considering the other viable lynch is me, I figured you'd be happy.

[Jingle]

I disagree with this statement in terms of probability.

Dann does not waffle this hard on me if Shoshin is his partner. She has an expiration date, and I'm the only real suspicion on Dann atm. If he's the one on his team who has to deepwolf, he shuts the fuck up and lets me get lynched. He doesn't burn all of his towncred AND talk down the potential for a lynch on the one guy suspecting him.

[Jingle]

Dann does not waffle this hard on me if Shoshin is his partner. She has an expiration date, and I'm the only real suspicion on Dann atm. If he's the one on his team who has to deepwolf, he shuts the fuck up and lets me get lynched. He doesn't burn all of his towncred AND talk down the potential for a lynch on the one guy suspecting him.

Actually, this is a good argument for Danntown. I don't have a single player in my lynchpool is more likely to deepwolf, and he's not setting up for a deepwolf rn.

[Jingle]

How do you reconcile scum Dann with pushing my lynch, Jingle?

You're a null read information lynch. I haven't really been hiding that.

[Jingle]

I didn't AtE to get out of a lynch. I was self-voting in all seriousness. I changed my mind because of Vedith, that's it.

Again, her rage and frustration was genuine. NAI, but genuine.

[Jingle]

:sigh:

[Jingle]

Honestly? I'm not opposed. I don't think anyone is going to be happy with a win this game with the amount of drama.

I'll keep playing, and I'll put whatever effort I can in, but the game is kinda fucked.

[Jingle]

@mod: sorry

[Jingle]

Whatever else, we're probably not gonna get a lynch through before the ~5 replacements. (Karmeleon is due a prod too)

If you wanna keep going, I'll keep going though.

[Jingle]

So....

Townblock

PR
Rei
Ali
McQueen
EE
Karm

Does anyone disagree with this?

[Jingle]

And I thought my last (and first) game was terrible.

I've seen worse. Fuck, I should've been banned for a newbie game I played on an alt where I basically abused House for the entire game.

[Jingle]

So....

Townblock

PR
Rei
Ali
McQueen
EE
Karm

Does anyone disagree with this?

Is that a response to this, Ali?

[Jingle]

PR, any thoughts for tomorrow? You still probs die tonight.

[Jingle]

In less depressing news, this game is almost as long as the micro I just modded! We have more than twice as many people, twice as many phases and 11 fewer pages!

[Jingle]

Do EEEET

[Jingle]

I assume from the last several pages that a lot of this game is not worth reading, so what are the most pertinent things to look at to get a foothold in the game?

PR led a flashwagon on scum after saying me and shoshin were scum together most of D1. Old you lolhammered in a fake as hell way.

Drama drama drama drama drama drama.

Also, some people think I'm scum because of lack of shits given, but most everyone else who's been active has a townread of some magnitude from the majority of the thread.

I've posted cases on bearman and Dannflor, though I sorta kinda doubt my Dannflor argument.

Also, I'm more betterer than both EE and PR, so talk to me.

[Jingle]

1313 to hammer probs most relevant.

[Jingle]

Ehhh. You know regardless of the lynch after tonight.

[Jingle]

and the grapes wagon yesterday. Your slot quickhammered and it's been a point of contention over whether scum would quickhammer scum like you did.

what trajectory did the wagon have?

also what did the gamestate look like at that point?

Wagon was a sharp turn from shoshin/jingle team paranoia and had incredible speed. Other notable events were Shoshin/DT fight and EE/Jingle back and forth. DDL complained about wagon speed, as did Vedith maybe? Can't remember Vedith's contribution, tbh.

[Jingle]

Let's make a better tomorrow, today!

Let's make a better yesterday, tomorrow!