Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Extrapolated Eagle]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

It has been a long time.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I’m kinda excited to play mafia
This isn’t a feeling I’ve experienced in awhile

Hello

Hello, vote FA with me?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

It has been a long time.

Aww you miss me <3

VOTE: Extrapolated Eagle

Considering you're one of the few names I remember, yes.

How are you doing these days?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Hm. The game thread hasn't gotten off to a particularly quick start, so I'll be a little more verbose with my opening post.

If I skimmed the player list correctly, I have played with eight of you before, but I doubt many of you know or remember my meta at all, so I'll introduce myself and ask a few questions in the process.

Hi! I'm Eagle. I'm an outed alt, but I ask that if you know who I am not to say, because that will make the game more exciting for me. I've been playing forum mafia on and off for around six years now and I think I was a lot better two years ago than I am right now. Oh well, I'll get back into it.

Here's a few questions that I'll be disappointed if I'm the only one to answer.

1. How comfortable do you feel playing town/scum?

2. What are you good at, what aren't you good at?

3. What part of playing mafia is most natural to you?

4. What is one thing about the current meta that you think should be changed?

5. How well do you know the other people in this game, and how excited are you to play?

1. I love playing town. I'm very comfortable with it. I am very bad at rolling mafia. I don't think I've ever had a game where I wasn't caught particularly quickly.

2. One thing I've gotten significantly better at over the years (although I still make mistakes sometimes) is judging myself to see when I am tunneling town. I am very bad, however, at handling emotional appeals.

3. I love RVS. It's one of my favorite stages of the game because everything is so awkward and chaotic, and I thrive in it. My goal, however, is to get out of RVS as quickly as possible. Usually that includes swallowing a wagon on myself, which is one thing I've gotten good at. I very much expect to be one of the wagons going out of RVS, especially with how awkward my writing here is coming across, and I don't particularly mind. However, my most natural state is when I get the freedom out of RVS to really start pushing people and put a little basis behind my shove.

4. I read a couple of the more recent games before this one started, and I have noticed that sheeping is a thing that people actually do now (I don't remember this ever being acceptable in the past). In addition, players are accepted as bad town very easily, and players who are almost guaranteed to lose the game in lylo for their anti-town game all game are allowed to go there. I think being lax on anti-town behavior and encouraging group think methods of play like sheeping should be discouraged, as priority number two.

5. Like I've said before, I have played with eight people here, I think. I'm very excited to play. This feels like it could be the next YCBA IV. I've got so much nostalgia that I've got this account on mafBlack for old times' sake.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why GE?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also how come you were around during 2017 but I literally never saw you I was literally everywhere in 2017

Oh crap, it's 2019 now isn't it? I should have said three years ago. My bad, I apologize.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What's wrong with RQS?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

that was towards Eagle but I think he knows that.

I do.

Hello

I've never played with most of you.

VOTE: Alisae
First person on the list I haven't played with.

Let's have a relaxing discussion on why voting Frozen Angel or Gamma Emerald are good ideas right now, though I approve of the attitude.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I honestly have no idea, but I'm almost always like this. I'll be more comfortable when I see the flop.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why is it so easy for you?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

EE, I've been good. Extremely Busy these days but good

So you're voting me and you're asking why voting me is a good idea?

Busy is good, I think. Good is definitely good. Either way, I'm glad to hear it.

Really rather excited to play with you again, do you know most of the other people playing?

No. I'm trying to convince someone else to vote for you or Gamma Emerald.

its not even phrasing of what your saying, though it is kinda awkward.
the fact you care so much about where people are voting on the first few pages of the game is what irks me

Oh, yeah. Isn't it weird? I like it though. It's fun to talk about. What if we assumed everything everyone did was for a reason, no matter how small? Then would you care to talk about votes on the first two pages of the game?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Spoiler:

1. How comfortable do you feel playing town/scum?

2. What are you good at, what aren't you good at?

3. What part of playing mafia is most natural to you?

4. What is one thing about the current meta that you think should be changed?

5. How well do you know the other people in this game, and how excited are you to play?

1 - I'm comfortable with both in the same manner.

2 - I'm not sure tbh. I have extremely good town games and extremely good mafia games. I also have extremely shit games sometimes. dependant on the game and players.

3 - all of it is natural tbh not sure what do you mean

4 - Imo most players fixate on stuff that they wish it will tell them others alignment (scumtells and towntells) when the actual game is about finding people motivation in doing such stuff. that is something I've been trying to fight with for ages.

5 - ALI <3 <3 <3

And there are a lot of people I like who are around. I've been away from ms for a while.

Little miss perfect over here.

Definitely know what you mean on 4. You put it in words I probably couldn't have if I tried, though. Maybe this game will be your breakthrough!

What do you think of Alisae?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@Clem Flip a coin, heads or tails. Heads you vote French Airlines, tails you vote General Electric. Which side of the coin do you hope lands face up?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Then it rolls down the hill and you just lost however much money the coin was worth. Unfortunately, it was also the only coin you had to put into the coin slot so you could play the mafia game, so you would have to replace out.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

i'm gonna go with heads
i like the french

Do you speak? Or just how simple their flag looks?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Oh, yeah. Isn't it weird? I like it though. It's fun to talk about. What if we assumed everything everyone did was for a reason, no matter how small? Then would you care to talk about votes on the first two pages of the game?

I'll get back to this a post later but for now, how excited are you for this game on a scale of 1-10, 1 being not really at all 10 being most hyped up moment in your life

I have expectations for this game that will likely exceed the ability of any mafia game to fulfill. I am more excited for this game than should ever be reasonable, and I have hope that I can play some old fashioned mafia like when I played three to five years ago. Thich is also one reason I used RQS. I haven't been this hyped for a game of mafia since 2016, and the fact that it already feels like 2016 to me is giving me false hope. Even the fact that you're asking me why I'm weird is giving me nostalgia for the old days.

On a completely separate note, I hate when I ask for a numerical value and I'm given a paragraph of words, so in summation, I'd say a six, compared to the most hyped up things in my life, though I've had a pretty hyped up life at some points.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@Clem

où est la salle de bains?

Pardon, professeur, mais est-ce je peux aller aux toilette?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Things are done for a reason thats how we get out of RVS.

I agree. That's why I asked.

We only take about what happens on these pages on these pages.

I'd agree with you the majority of the time, but there are exceptions.

These pages are actually very insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things.

To be fair, rarely is a single page or group of pages especially significant in the grand scheme of things.

You aren't going to be refer to be basing things on page 1 to get a read on someone on page 50 or higher or whatever. You're just not.

Not entirely off of what happens here, no. I'd argue it might have some effect on my reads depending on how things go.

however, if you're really looking forward to the game and you rand villager, its likely that your behavoir makes sense, so it comes out as awkward and trying to force a start of the game when simply put one doesn't exist. Because you're trying to force the game to start quicker, it looks awkward, therefore this interaction happens.

So ur probably just town tbh but I'll re-evaluate tomorrow just to be sure

I can sense your excitement as well and I'm thrilled by it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Feels good to be dusting off the ol' talker.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why me and FA? Feels like you drew names out of a hat.

Oh! I've been waiting for someone to ask me this question!

Well first, I'm almost certain we have played together, either under and alt or a while ago.

I think French Airlines is a good company to take stock in because I know their president, he's a likeable guy, and it would be really hard to get him out of office if we give him enough money early on to do what he wants with.

General Electric is solid because I've heard that they rarely take it seriously, but that's just a rumor.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I played League once.

I'm very bad at Dota. What do you think of Mars?

VOTE: extrapolated eagle

serious tone and pointless joking content does no go well together

Good point. I think General Electric is probably a bad idea anyways. I really only wanted stock because of the rumors I've heard.

I do think Egg Enterprises is also a good company to take stock in.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Voltas seems to be a decent investment right now.


VOTE: Vedith

and for shittalking my boy, prada

Annnnnd I'm regretting my decision already.

I'm adding another request to that no mu talk

No Prada mentions, please.

Thanks.

man you are a one needy girl

Can't help it

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Voltas seems to be a decent investment right now.


VOTE: Vedith

and for shittalking my boy, prada

I'm adding another request to that no mu talk

No Prada mentions, please.

Thanks.

man you are a one needy girl

Can't help it

Annnnnd I'm regretting my decision already.

EBWOP

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I actually dont like EE's reaction to DT

You aren't supposed to.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

eagle

What's up?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@EE how is me "not wanting to hear about someone who is not in this game and a website that is not even the one we're playing mafia in" is related to your decision about voting me or not voting me that you're regretting changing your vote now?

That's not the post I quoted is it?

I might have made a mistake, did I quote the wrong post?

Nope. Not the post I quoted.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

But I need things

But posting cute gifs and manipulating the emotions of the other players is not the right way to get them, is it?

Have mercy on me, I'm weak to this sort of thing.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I like to lynch things I don't trust and I don't trust things that are too cute and adorable on the outside to ever believe it could do anyone harm.

she didnt post gifs

Sorry, a single gif, but I know she has a history with this sort of thing.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Seeing this stuff about trading stocks kinda confused me for a second

Really crappy metaphors are easier to talk in because getting at what I'm trying to get at in specific words rarely works out for me as far as understanding goes.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Learning how differently people react to me now was very strange for me.

kill eagle because i simply dont want to read his posts. it is not to my liking

But this game, ah, this is going to be a good one.


Frozen Angel's first posts weren't particularly manipulative which is why I changed my vote, if anyone's wondering.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm lycan this guy.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I think one of the few things I'm stronger at is knowing when I like someone too much, but thank you for the warning.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

Just need to say that:

1 - I use gifs when I want. They were never posted to manipulate people. But I try to be cute -.- sorry if that hurts EE

2 - I lack experience with getting mislynched and lynched as either alignment. Only times it happened in all my mafia career, I either got lynched in lylo by a complete lurker, or people decided to that to send me a message (well what I received was that they are idiots) so don't call me a lynchbait even hypotetichally lycan

3 - I didn't even remotely try to manipulate anyone in any way in any post I made so far so the stuff eagle and shoshin are pursuing (calling my gif manipulative and seeking for reactions about me manipulating) both feel extremely icky and has no genuine thought process but I think I like shoshin less with it.

For the record, I was half joking about the gif posting thing. I doubt you're intentionally manipulative, but you respond to attacks with emotion sometimes and I can't deal with that well. "Manipulative" is a word with a much more negative connotation than I meant to use, so I apologize for that, but it is the right word and I can't think of a better one right now, so I guess we'll stick with it.

@EE posting this one just for you



I'm ready to fight anti-cuteness with cute gifs. come at me man.

You've asked for it. I've been training since we last engaged in combat, and I'm a lot more ready than I was the last time.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Of the people on my wagon, Shoshin and Alisae make me the least comfortable.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Don't me taking pagetop to say that Shoshin's probably the best wagon at the moment next to Vedith

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Don't me taking pagetop to say that Shoshin's probably the best wagon at the moment next to Vedith

To rephrase in English:
Don't mind me, I'm just taking pagetop to say that Shoshin is probably the best wagon at the moment next to Vedith.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

It's been a while. What part of the body do you play with the most, FA? Your heart, your gut, or your brain?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm not sure if Yume got better or worse

Maybe she just started smoking weed

Who/what is Yume?

It's been a while. What part of the body do you play with the most, FA? Your heart, your gut, or your brain?

The gut and what you counted as the heart (emotions) are mainly originated functions in our right hemisphere in the brain so I say brain.

I look at things from different channels to see what I can deduce.

how do you play the game?

pedit: What are your current reads ali?

pedit: Rei is just branching rn.

I really need to sleep early tonight. been a LONG week.

pedit: omg!!!!!!!!!!! its yume!

Ha. Fair enough.

I like my gut when the game is going fast. I play better when I'm all gut and then I switch to all brain, because while they agree with each other, they're always afraid the other is wrong and then I end up always wrong.

I try to just ignore any feelings that might happen by accident because I'm really bad at that.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

That’s how mafia works

Have her wash it in yonder dry well
Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme
where water ne'er sprung nor drop of rain fell
And then she'll be a true love of mine

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Talk about this one?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

grapes do you remember Elyse?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

and also thanks so much for reminding me about you could be anyone...

I figured if I still had dreams about that game then you should too!

Still regret getting myself lynched day 4. I think we could have won if I'd just conceded for a bit just enough so people would lynch Elyse with me.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

As I have played with FA before, I feel relatively informed on my own personal tells on her, so I'm not coming at the situation from an uninformed perspective?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What emotion do you feel right now, Shoshin?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

i have one tr so far
anyone doing better

Yes.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

what you at

2 kinda strong (for RVS) trs
a couple weak trs
and a couple tentative scum reads

I'd say I have reads on like seven players right now

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What emotion do you feel right now, Shoshin?

Look back, I'm sad that the first wagon we got going (on you) was quickly dismantled before anything interesting happened. I'm also sad that all the votes are split.

I agree.
I'm not sure if scum got cold feet or if I'm just getting bad at being wagoned. I really hope it's the former cuz that makes the game a lot easier.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Can you put names to your reads, Eagle?

I'll give you 3 of your choosing, but I'd rather not reveal everything at the moment cuz I'm still trying to recover from the the disassembly of my wagon. I really rather thought we might be going somewhere.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

That's about the worst reason I've ever heard for withholding reads. If you're looking for reactions on a specific person, then sure, keep the read to yourself. Otherwise, please out them.

I considered outing myself for a second and then I decided against it.

We'll leave it at "no." Push my lynch please.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

if shos doesnt want it
can i have 1 strong tr and 2 weak trs pls

Sure.

Strong town read:
Reiuji Utsuho: I like the fact that she's hiding information - making people ask for specific information can be a good way to get a read on people, I also feel like I follow her thought process relatively well.

Weak Town reads:
Frozen Angel: Usually her posts (when I've engaged her in the past) are aggressively emotional and actively OMGUS-y with the intent of using the fact that she's good at being cute and likeable to disassemble any logic used against her. I'm not getting this feeling from her right now, and I feel relatively confident in being able to call her scum if/when she does.
Lycanfire: Seems confident enough in his posting and the fact that he switched from actively aggressive to semi-joke posting seems like he's relaxed and ready to rip some people to shreds, which is an emotion I often feel when I'm in the middle of a chaotic game and I feel that I'm getting enough information to take the scum team down with nothing but my teeth and my will to lynch.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Can you put names to your reads, Eagle?

I'll give you 3 of your choosing, but I'd rather not reveal everything at the moment cuz I'm still trying to recover from the the disassembly of my wagon. I really rather thought we might be going somewhere.

a detailed read on me alisae and shoshin

Frozen Angel: Usually her posts (when I've engaged her in the past) are aggressively emotional and actively OMGUS-y with the intent of using the fact that she's good at being cute and likeable to disassemble any logic used against her. I'm not getting this feeling from her right now, and I feel relatively confident in being able to call her scum if/when she does.

so why is she a town read?

Not right now.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I will say DoubtingThomas is probably town.

lol actively denying simple information is just lmao

You'll find my gameplay very funny then.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I should probably do this in reference to this:

Spoiler:

if shos doesnt want it
can i have 1 strong tr and 2 weak trs pls

Sure.

Strong town read:
Reiuji Utsuho: I like the fact that she's hiding information - making people ask for specific information can be a good way to get a read on people, I also feel like I follow her thought process relatively well.

Weak Town reads:
Frozen Angel: Usually her posts (when I've engaged her in the past) are aggressively emotional and actively OMGUS-y with the intent of using the fact that she's good at being cute and likeable to disassemble any logic used against her. I'm not getting this feeling from her right now, and I feel relatively confident in being able to call her scum if/when she does.
Lycanfire: Seems confident enough in his posting and the fact that he switched from actively aggressive to semi-joke posting seems like he's relaxed and ready to rip some people to shreds, which is an emotion I often feel when I'm in the middle of a chaotic game and I feel that I'm getting enough information to take the scum team down with nothing but my teeth and my will to lynch.

like oh scums gonna win if they know why you town read one single player in the game or somehting

sigh

Do you want to play two truths and a lie?

Spoiler:

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why are you still voting Vedith, Eagle?

Because I want to lynch him.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

eagle you want to make a towncore?

Yes, but I'm probably a bad choice as of right now, I've got a couple projects I'm working on.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

well are you gonna be able to step your game up sooner or later or

Later.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

mafiascum's selfvoting meta is laughable

I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

i am not getting town read~ i am getting "unfairly" scum read~ *self vote*

Jesus have mercy on me

"Good luck without me tomorrow, town!"

If I had the ability to kill Shoshin for the self-vote I would do so immediately, including going so far as to quickhammer her.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What's the harm in self-voting?

Quit mafia if you were asking this genuinely.

Self voting as town means you are playing against your win-condition of trying to find and lynch scum.

Self voting as scum means you are playing against your win-condition of trying to survive and mislynch townies.

Huh? You are self voting for "strategic AtE purposes"? Cut that shit out. That is utter bullshit and has 0 strategic purposes. All you are doing is, "I am so town/I can't be scum (as either alignment) because I am self voting" which goes against the integrity of the game and doesn't add any value to solving the game because you will not only self vote as one particular alignment and literally helps nobody in trying to solve your slot.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

We can revive it right here.

If I have killing power, she dies at night anyways. That kinda play is worthless for town to have around regardless of her alignment

Let me get back to you. I'm almost always excited to revive policy lynches, but I'm pushing a couple things right now and I need specific people to do certain things before I start doing other things that draw attention away from that.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

I'd love to bring back policy lynching. I think too many people play the game by how they feel now even though people still pull the same tricks as scum that they've almost always pulled and get caught by the same policies.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Policy lynching is a shitty crutch for people who don't know how to distinguish town from scum. It also prevents creative plays & makes games completely unfun.

I can assure you that voting yourself to get more votes on you is in no way creative. As someone who has been wagoned (and pushes people to wagon himself multiple times) I guarantee that all you did by voting yourself was give some people a reason to put their vote on you under the guise of PL-ing, and other people a reason to TR you (because why would scum vote themselves), both of which just means you generated easy content for scum that's not as discernible from the rest of the game.

Policy lynching isn't a "shitty crutch" it's a bar. Far too many people on this site play below baseline acceptable for town. Policy lynching encourages creativity in play because it gets rid of half-wits who think lurking, sheeping, and self-voting are new and creative ways to play mafia.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Policy lynching isn't a "shitty crutch" it's a bar. Far too many people on this site play below baseline acceptable for town. Policy lynching encourages creativity in play because it gets rid of half-wits who think lurking, sheeping, and self-voting are new and creative ways to play mafia.

To add to the list: Fakeclaiming (something I've read in a game recently and heard rumors of as really popular), and lying.

FTR I DO run wagons on myself to get out of RVS. But there are more ways to conglomerate votes than self-voting. I know this takes some creativity, but have you thought about pushing people to vote one way or another, (i.e. "vote DT or me, please") or moving your vote a lot in RVS with little to no explanation/acting weird/uncomfortable/scummy in general?

And I know it takes a bit of creativity to adapt to situations, but what what if that were an option? I'm seriously considering leaving RVS in the way it is right now. I found it fascinating the assembly and disassembly of the wagon on me as well as the fact that votes seem to intend on being smattered about almost randomly. What if you didn't apply this cookie-cutter "we have to come out of RVS with a wagon" mindset?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why don't you talk about who the scum are instead of PLs, EE?

Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

You're the one talking about PLs, EE, not me. I've asked you for reads. You refused. I asked you to vote Alisae. You refused. You're the one who's choosing to talk about NAI stuff, not me.

You read the wrong part of the post I quoted.

That's fine. I'll spell it out for you. I'm waiting on specific people to get here and respond to specific things that happened in the thread prior to your self-vote. Until then I have not much to say.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Frozen Angel please discuss how you feel you're being read by the game right now and whether or not you think that's fair.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@Shoshin

Spoiler:

1. Let's make this very clear. When I say policy lynching is good because it gets rid of half-wits, I'm talking about plays where people just self-vote because "you never expected that, did you?"

2. I'm going to limit my discussion on PLs in general, because it's becoming obvious you're trying to divert from the stupidity that was 298, but what I will say is that you're committing fallacies by saying "good players do this, therefore it is acceptable." And when I say that I want policy lynches back, I say it because I want to be rid of players who are going to troll, who are going to make dumb moves (intentionally or unintentionally) or who are going to blame their very bad play on being bad at mafia or VI. I believe there are exceptions to be made for the rule when thought is applied - policy lynches are for when thought is not applied at all, like what you did earlier.

3. I read a few games to catch up on site and saw some of the crappiest play I have ever seen before. Town players pushing people to claim PR when all they really needed was a crumb. People playing rashly and quickly without any thought at all applied. If you want to continue to play with this group of people, that's fine. I'd rather push policy lynches until I get players who care about the game and are going to pay attention to what's going on and try.

4. Don't make the argument "no one knows what is and isn't optimal." If you push for a claimed and confirmed town PR to be lynched, that's sub optimal. If you push for mass claims in newbie games (or newbie setups) that is irrefutably sub-optimal. If you hammer yourself as a town PR (or really for any reason as town whatsoever except with a few exceptions), that's sub-optimal. If you see players trying to get reads and you distract from it by voting yourself or starting a 1v1 with another player, that's sub-optimal (as town). If you disagree on any of these points, I'd rather you replaced out, honestly. There are so many other things that you can say are absolutely sub-optimal and anyone worth their salt will agree with you. So don't give me this "you don't know what is and isn't acceptable" pile of crap.

5. You and I have very different definitions of "strong town players."

6. Let's talk about your self-vote specifically, instead of going back and forth about hypothetical policy lynches. Your self-vote was bad. It was horrible. It detracted from the state of the game by leading to discussion about your wagon and distracting from things people had been doing to catch up, and it lead to the disassembly of your wagon. If you legitimately think your self-vote was good, I challenge you to re-examine yourself with maybe a little bit less of a conceited view. Your best friends calling you "MVP" doesn't mean anything to me.

7. I don't know who you are. Congratulations if you have a 75% winrate. I'm glad. For that to mean anything though, you have to give numbers of games played (4 is not impressive), and it matters what kind of games they are as well. I'm not particularly interested in hearing your description of how good you think you are at mafia, however, so once you get those numbers, feel free to keep them to yourself. I will question your results, particularly because the lack of thought put into the self-vote shown earlier baffles me.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I've never seen a town lose because of a self-vote.

That's not a great way to push a "self-voting isn't bad" argument.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm calling you conceited because you're justifying bad play with "My friends say I'm good at this game." Your self vote does cause actual harm. It did cause actual harm. You attacking me personally and building yourself up personally instead of discussing your actual play is the problem here. Stop trying to change the subject. Bad players making a "good faith" effort won't learn not to make those mistakes if they're pampered. Which is why I'm not pampering your already massive ego.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

1. Self-votes have different impacts depending on context. If I self-vote at L-6, it doesn't put me anywhere close to getting lynched. Thus, it causes no actual harm if I remove the vote long before I'm lynched. If I hammer myself, that obviously causes harm because I've helped cause my own lynching. But these are two different things. Context matters.

2. Harmless self-votes still create wagons & reactions. And wagons/reactions can be sorted into town/scum. Thus, harmless self-votes help town scumhunt, especially in situations where there's a lack of information (e.g. early D1).

3. The impact of self-voting largely turns on how other players react. If all the townies decide to PL the self-voter instead of sorting her, then self-voting becomes harmful. But the issue here isn't the self-vote, it's how other players responded. If players don't PL the self-voter, the self-vote becomes harmless. Ironically, self-voting only becomes harmful because of PLing (i.e. when it comes to self-voting, PLing is entirely circular in its justification).

Conclusion: self-voting is like drinking wine, whether it's beneficial or harmful largely depends on other factors that have nothing to do with the vote (or drink) itself.

It's almost like I said "there are exceptions to this rule."
Your self-vote distracted from other things that were going on in the game and was not in any way "harmless."
Congratulations, you have discovered the victim mentality. My play isn't my problem, it's the people around me that cause my play to be a problem.
Draw a conclusion without testing your hypothesis and all you've done is make a fool of yourself.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

1. Self-votes have different impacts depending on context. If I self-vote at L-6, it doesn't put me anywhere close to getting lynched. Thus, it causes no actual harm if I remove the vote long before I'm lynched. If I hammer myself, that obviously causes harm because I've helped cause my own lynching. But these are two different things. Context matters.

2. Harmless self-votes still create wagons & reactions. And wagons/reactions can be sorted into town/scum. Thus, harmless self-votes help town scumhunt, especially in situations where there's a lack of information (e.g. early D1).

3. The impact of self-voting largely turns on how other players react. If all the townies decide to PL the self-voter instead of sorting her, then self-voting becomes harmful. But the issue here isn't the self-vote, it's how other players responded. If players don't PL the self-voter, the self-vote becomes harmless. Ironically, self-voting only becomes harmful because of PLing (i.e. when it comes to self-voting, PLing is entirely circular in its justification).

Conclusion: self-voting is like drinking wine, whether it's beneficial or harmful largely depends on other factors that have nothing to do with the vote (or drink) itself.

It's almost like I said "there are exceptions to this rule."
Your self-vote distracted from other things that were going on in the game and was not in any way "harmless."
Congratulations, you have discovered the victim mentality. "My play isn't my problem, it's the people around me that cause my play to be a problem."
Draw a conclusion without testing your hypothesis and all you've done is make a fool of yourself.

EBWOP.

No amount of "what ifs" and special exceptions will convince me that your rash and unthinking self-vote was anything but that.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I don't know how you can honestly bring up "mafia is a complex game and no one knows why or what is optimal and suboptimal" and "my play is optimal" simultaneously.

I want to push your lynch right now but I'm not going to, because I'm still trying to get responses for the things that I did earlier that you so neatly detracted from with your "harmless" self vote. And if you think your wagon will stay assembled, you have a gross understanding of what mafia is and how it works. It will likely meander around whatever it's at now. I highly doubt anyone will get a policy lynch off of you. And I'd be super curious to see how your reads have changed because of your self vote, since it was so useful to you.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Buj, why are you voting me if the self-voter in that game flipped town?

Because you made an anti-town play. Why is this baffling?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm going to be honest I'm doing other things right now. I'm not particularly interested in listening to your haughtiness yell at me about how you've got a 75% win rate as town. Your self vote was dumb, it got in the way of things other people tried to do, you've shown in other posts you're incapable of accepting that other players might be using more nuanced play in any form or fashion. You played rashly and eagerly and made a mistake and now you're incapable of admitting it. Sorry. If you don't want to listen or work with me because you've got an estimated 75% win rate as town, that's fine. Just say so in your next post and I'll stop responding.

Don't worry though, everyone's human, and everyone makes mistakes. Just don't end up like certain players on this site who will spend all game whining about how good their reads are after townread after townread flips scum, just because they've had solid games in the past.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

god i dont want to add gasoline to the flame but eddie cane once self voted (a couple of times) very effectively and led town to a very difficult win

Did he think about it instead of doing it because he was FUCKING BORED?!?

Sorry. I hate dealing with this shit.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

This is boring.

VOTE: Shoshin

Rash, poorly thought out decision. Not an example of an exception to the rule, it's a case of the player losing interest in what the other players are trying to do or trying to undermine what the other players are trying to do even though I'm almost certain I made it obvious that I'm trying to do other things. Destructive and disgusting.

I don't care if a player self-votes because they know what they're doing. Sure if their self-vote caused you to win, great.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm not sure if scum got cold feet or if I'm just getting bad at being wagoned.

I find this post inconsistent with EE's views on self-voting. How is baiting a self-wagon, or expressing sadness over the dismantling of a self-wagon, different from a self-vote? The intent is the same: finding scum through a self-wagon. What do you think, DDL?

How likely are you to join a wagon where the player self votes? Tell me about your reactions to it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Spoiler: To Shoshin

For your information, Shoshin, I started putting words in your mouth solely because your nonchalance with my words made it seem that diction must not matter to you at all. Now that I see that you have no respect for me or the arguments I pose because you expect me to respect your words in a way you do not mine. It has become apparent to me that you are as aware of what I'm saying to you as you are of the effect of your rash self vote. The fact that you try so hard to justify your idiocy through humbly bragging about the things people have said about you and the idea that you seem to think for some reason that I will have increased respect for your opinion because of your win rate as town shows how hopeless it is to continue arguing with you. All I see is a predetermined state of mind with arguments you make up on the spot, hoping for some reason that I'll fall to the fact that you, too, know how to count. You went so far as to say that my description of your self-vote was inaccurate and posted four points afterwards, only one of which was an actual attempt at countering such an argument, and if you are trying to tell me that you had no intention of getting reads or becoming a discussion point after putting a vote on yourself, beginning an argument with you was foolish on my part anyways.

So in good faith, I will break this down for you as honestly as I possibly can.I do not think you are necessarily bad at the game. I don't think you are stupid. I don't think you're malicious. I think you made a mistake and you're incapable of handling the fact that it might have been a bad move. I think you have no intention of actually reading and applying thought to the words I put in front of you, I think you will continue with your useless hypotheticals and "what ifs" to respond to the fact that your self-vote was a bad move. I despise your self vote. I despise your attitude when you responded to criticisms of it. I despise the way you took liberties with my words and then chastised me for doing the same. I despise your ego. I want nothing more to do with this argument and should you wish to continue them, I recommend you find a stone wall. It will be more attentive to your please for justification than I will.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

That moment when you pour all your anger into a post and then realize that you accidentally put an "e" on the end of "pleas."

[Extrapolated Eagle]

To clarify my position on Shoshin at the moment: I'm refusing to read her because I'm still waiting on specific people to respond to specific things.

I'm refusing to respond to further illusions of defense of her self vote until I have sorted other parts of the game, because I am not trying to sort her at this point in time, so discussing things that might be AI are merely distracting for me, and because it appears as if she isn't actually interested in defending the thought process behind the self vote. This does not mean I am refusing to engage with her on other subjects nor do I expect her to sit silently while I make a case against her, if/when I do case her I will fully expect a rebuttal and I will respond to anything posted there with an open mind.

Until that point in time, however, I'm not interested in hearing further arguments towards your self-vote, shoshin. I'm not telling you not to post and I'm not pretending I have power over what you do or do not post. I'm simply clarifying my stance. I'm a bit annoyed at the moment so I figure it's best to try to maximize clarity and move on for me at the moment.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm going to bed right now, Alita (FA), but I left you a couple presents that I'd like you to open.

I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

I hate policy lynching

Policy lynching is like telling the idiots that you care for them.

It makes them feel loved.

Just moving on from this crap. hopefully all other pages is not just policy lynch discussions and there are game relevant content.

@Shoshin If you are town, the harm you did to game was way more extreme than 3 free kills to mafia. By making the discussions about if you are worthy to get policy lynched or not, you tried to ruin the day-game in this game.

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

I can agree with your views on Policy Lynching. Let me rephrase what I said earlier then.

"I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss lynching anti-town behavior."

[Extrapolated Eagle]

'AtE is NAI' is incorrect.

AtE is

always

NAI
Everyone gets frustrated as any align.
If you build a case around or including someone using AtE I don't ever take it seriously.

No. This isn't true and if you don't believe me I think I can probably find examples. Usually AtE is NAI but there are plenty of times where you can look at it at think "wow, that emotion doesn't make sense as town, that's definitely a fake anger to try and make the other person back off "

[Extrapolated Eagle]

And could you unpack this a bit more?

DT overreacted, not sure what else you want me to say. I think he jumped on the opportunity to push my mislynch while buddying up to EE. Are you townreading DT?

I was hoping to try and maybe have you go more into where you're seeing dt fudge his story up than anything else with this.

kinda town but also wanna confirm something that's gonna sway my read there a lot anyway




EE, why are you voting vedith?

Because he's one of my strongest scum reads right now.

No. This isn't true and if you don't believe me I think I can probably find examples. Usually AtE is NAI but there are plenty of times where you can look at it at think "wow, that emotion doesn't make sense as town, that's definitely a fake anger to try and make the other person back off "

I can show you examples where Scum and town have both given AtE. I've been frustrated and annoyed as scum the same as town.
Too many players use AtE as an acceptable reason to read players on here and I find that tragic.
Being right on an AtE doesn't mean it's not NAI. Its basically the same as saying x amount of names at the start of the game and if right at the end going "Yeah this is a thing".

I'm not wrong here.

I agree that most of the time it is NAI. I'm also telling you it can be pretty obvious when someone is trying to manipulate someone emotionally.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

UNVOTE: DoubtingThomas

Im sure this is TvT all over.
And lazy town/Scum are encouraging it for easy mis lynches.

Does this read as awkward and forced to anyone else?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

That just looked lazy to me tbh.

Vote him with me just in case?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm almost certain Vedith is scum right now, in case anyone is wondering

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Anyone not looking at Vedith as scum in (expired on 2019-03-11 15:30:00) is going on my "disappointed" list of people I'm disappointed in.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Why is Vedith scum, EE?

He's not engaged, his posts are fake, and he's trying to look town

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Does this read as awkward and forced to anyone else?

It's only forced if you think that theres scum in DT vs shoshin and Vedith is trying to force a wagon elsewhere. Is that the case?

Otherwise I dont see what it is "forcing" to do

Why isn't it just "I think I can get town points for calling myself town after having this weird awkward engagement with another player"

[Extrapolated Eagle]

So uh
Why aren’t we punishing the person who tried to commit way too hard to lynching someone based on self-voting?
Why does town produce that overaction when trying to lynch what is the most obvious town slot in the game currently?

Because NerfedBuj is more likely to flip scum than DT imo

VOTE: Buj

nice.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

what she also presenting on DT and then just completely ignored is also interesting to me
Like she said DT irked her then never touched back on it

Given the situation and how it developed, it is perfectly reasonable regardless of her alignment I think.
She was locked on to shoshin almost right after her last comment about DT.

okay thank you, anything you need from me?

Yes. look at vedith's posts and tell me about how scummy he is

or tell me i'm wildly insane and then i will go cri in a corner

[Extrapolated Eagle]

what she also presenting on DT and then just completely ignored is also interesting to me
Like she said DT irked her then never touched back on it

Given the situation and how it developed, it is perfectly reasonable regardless of her alignment I think.
She was locked on to shoshin almost right after her last comment about DT.

okay thank you, anything you need from me?

Yes. look at vedith's posts and tell me about how scummy he is

or tell me i'm wildly insane and then i will go cri in a corner

nobody was talking to you you STUPID burd brain

Almost posted it.
Almost.

ow.. :'(

Why isn't it just "I think I can get town points for calling myself town after having this weird awkward engagement with another player"

Feels farfetched? I dont see it getting any town points either

does anything he's done so far look like something he could do as town that he couldn't/wouldn't/would feel uncomfortable as scum?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@burd brain

In all seriousness idc ask me for a vedith read mid-late game I’ll give you one then.
Reading trash like that right now is actually a waste of time, he literally has the same odds of being scum as everyone else.
I think you should expand your horizons for now. There’s a lot more to teh game then vedith

Ok, Vedith or me. I could be scum, too, right?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

The things that are going on in the game that are not looking at Vedith and wondering why there isn't more pressure on him need to stop, IMO.

my point is right now he’s nothing but a troll to me

Read his answers to my RQS questions.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

oh you poor soul

Shhh just listen to me

think about how much fun it would be to lynch vedith right now

just look at it and think

"wow, if i could lynch vedith, that would be fun!"

he's playing scared let's lynch him for it

actually thinking responses to RQS is the more alignment indicative thing about a person on page 27
I feel so bad for you dude

Darn i knew it wouldn't work on you but it was worth a shot

alright i'm claiming that role that wins the game when they get their specific target lynched i forget what it's called, but that guy

and my target is vedith

[Extrapolated Eagle]

GO LEAVE BEFORE I OUT YOUR MAIN

who was this to?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

are those fusion monsters going to vote for vedith with me?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Alright usually I try not to out myself on day one, but I'm a cop with a guilty on vedith and he told me in his PM in our neighborhood that he wants to be lynched today anyways.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Alright usually I try not to out myself on day one, but I'm a cop with a guilty on vedith and he told me in his PM in our neighborhood that he wants to be lynched today anyways.

This is false I have only posted once in the hood and all I said was "Vedith".

Oh I was reading the wrong person's posts then, my bad. are you town, then?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Jingle let's lynch vedith

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Actually Pvt is a good wagon.

VOTE: Pvt Urist

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Jingle let's lynch vedith

I... What?

Pvt is fine too, we can get to vedith later if you want to.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm not going to town spew right now because I'm annoyed so stop town reading me

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I like DT I hope he's not scum

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Like, I have a really good read on catching really good players who are not being engaged in the thread as well as they should be if they were town.

For those of you know the likes of Bopolis, Wiggles, Knights, Achromatic, Dyachei, etc, I have like 100% scum read on legendary town players who are not really "actively" trying to catch scums when they were wolfing. Not like activity-wise active, more like, are they engaging with people in the thread and trying to solve everyone's slots?

iirc, Alisae has won like best town or scum player in the scummies last year, right? and she also has like 23k posts here?

The posts she's making here and the empty reads she's giving out while refusing to interact with me and trying to justify her fixation of tunneling me feels like a good player trying to play poorly on purpose.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HE THINKS I'M GOOD AT THE GAME
HAHAHHAHAHA
THATS SO FUCKING FUNNY OMG

I like alisae but this response is not good

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm not pushing Shoshin.

Pretty sure I said that.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I was never pushing Shoshin.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

You seem to think I should be inclined to townread self-votes because of recent events. Why would that ever be the case?

No, not at all. Anyone who plays with me knows that I believe AtE is NAI and self voting is a form of AtE.

You used the argument from that game concerning self voting and tried to compare a day 3 self vote to a day 1 self vote that in theory doesn't directly cause the lynch.
You said about the 2 players self voting were town, so in that mentality alone you should be thinking that it's a townier thing to do, by the information you arguing with and the results of your argument.

Shoshin's self-vote was in no way a form of AtE and you should know better.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Vedith believes Assertion = Evidence or he's scum. I'm leaning towards the latter because there's no way anyone actually believes the former.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Vedith and Pvt are both pretty good lynch candidates, in case anyone is wondering. Just because I'm not on the Vedith wagon anymore doesn't mean you don't still have (expired on 2019-03-11 15:30:00) to be seriously trying to read him and wondering if he's scum before you get put on the "disappointed" list. I would hate to be disappointed in everyone here.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Eagle, what's your read on Buj?

He looks pretty towny to me.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@DT - I thought there was some old game but it looks like our only game together is Jingle's Townsquare.

This looks weird to me, though.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

This:

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

What looks towny about Vedith and PvtUrist to you?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Jingle let's lynch vedith

I... What?

Pvt is fine too, we can get to vedith later if you want to.

Jingle: "I'm townreading Vedith"

EE: "Jingle, Let's lynch Vedith"

Jingle: "I wants me some of that sweet sweet drugs"

I don't care that you're town reading him. Unless you're town reading him for good reasons, you're probably not tolerating him for good reasons, and therefore you should help me lynch him.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I don't care that you're town reading him. Unless you're town reading him for good reasons, you're probably not town reading him for good reasons, and therefore you should help me lynch him.

EBWOP

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Okay, how is asking me to wagon one of the four people I'm townreading going to advance the game in any way?

Especially given that you didn't give me a reason that you wanted to wagon him?

Your town read will either disappear or get stronger from watching him. Where's the downside?

Also if you're asking for a reason I left it a bit back there, you should have seen it when you were catching up. I forgot what I said it was, though.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

vedith feels like he has no scum reads

This is pretty good words for it. other good words include: not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also if you're asking for a reason I left it a bit back there, you should have seen it when you were catching up. I forgot what I said it was, though.

:thorface:

Sorry, I was trying to be creative and do things that are NAI by being anti town (in not sharing why you should vote him)

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also if you're asking for a reason I left it a bit back there, you should have seen it when you were catching up. I forgot what I said it was, though.

:thorface:

Sorry, I was trying to be creative and do things that are NAI by being anti town (in not sharing why you should vote him)

Whatever this was over the top and I'm sorry. some of the things that have been said are ridiculous, though.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm lynching Pvt right now but I'm willing to summon those monsters if you teach me the spelll

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'll make you guys a deal. Wagon Pvt or Vedith with me for a little bit (I really prefer Vedith, but I don't particularly care either way) and I'll start town spewing so you can put me as town in your reads lists.

just get your hands on the card and pay 1 life point

How do I get the card, though?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

If you help me lynch Vedith I'll even go so far as to tell you that I am town, and thus confirm your creeping suspicions.

thats a good question dude
fuck if I know

Thanks! I pride myself on asking good questions!

You could also go for this card

Hm. I don't want to negate anyone's turn, though, I want people to take their turn so that they can pit their vote on Vedith.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I like you, Alisae. I don't want to have to be disappointed in you.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Lol nothing in the two posts you picked were anything but weak stances scum would take to get tiny bits of town cred. He didn't take a solid stance. He didn't come out and oppose that stuff directly. He just said I disagree with this and moved on with his life. There's nothing town about that.

Also wasn't sure before but your reason for your scum read on me is bad, lol, considering you think vedith is town. Any other person sure, but the fact that you're town reading before for posting stuff that could easy go both ways and looks like cheap attempts at town cred, whereas you scum read me for not going for easy town cred... it's almost like reverse lynch bait.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

You gotta at least try to apply some thought, there, dude.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also wasn't sure before but your reason for your scum read on me is bad, lol, considering you think vedith is town. Any other person sure, but the fact that you're town reading vedith for for posting stuff that could easy go both ways and looks like cheap attempts at town cred, whereas you scum read me for not going for easy town cred... it's almost like reverse lynch bait.

Ebwop

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Every time I try to comprehend the fact that Jingle town reads before for the same reason he scum reads me, my brain starts feeling nauseous.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I swear I'm going to find the person that coded auto correct and put their face into one of those meat slicers at the deli. Slunk, slunk, slunk, and then I will make a sandwich of that meat and feed it to their children.


Vedith auto-corrects to before, by the way

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Post 1 isn't a stance you'd take for towncred. He's not townreading Shoshin there, just saying that she's potentially useful as town and thus not a good lynch. That buys goodwill from no one if Shoshin flips scum and no one if shoshin flips town.

Post 2 is going against the flow of the thread, again in a way not likely to get towncred. What does scum Vedith gain from that post?

Both posts, on the other hand, are definitely possible from a town mindset. Not being sure about a player's alignment but wanting to keep them around because they're goodtown is a consumately townie thing to do.

And yeah, there's definitely value to townreading people for saying things and making stances that don't look like they're there to get towncred, just like there's value to scumreading people who look like they're taking stances solely for the sake of towncred.


But seriously, show me examples of the lies, the fake stances, the fake words, the lack of engagement, and the spineless lamistness. Show me the lack of engagement. I wanna see the colors of the wind, but you gotta lead me there Pocahontas.

Post 1 is a stance I'd take for town cred. I don't want to fully town read her unless the push on her becomes nice and easy later, but I want to look like I'm trying to offer my opinion and work with town. Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Post 2 is against the grain and everyone thinks oh wow someone going against the grain that guy must be town. hrs not saying why he thinks she's town, he's saying why he think the other persons argument that she is scum is bad. This leaves him an opening to still push her as scum without contradicting himself if the opportunity arises.

Also see the post I quoted earlier. His fake 1v1 with DT: "oh let's get a little emotional and then make it look like we're both town. I'll give him town points by calling this TvT without actually town reading him and also look like the better player because I have control of my emotions" even though you could tell he wasn't invested at all the whole time

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Hello everyone \o/

@NSG can you prod DDL please?

Look I'm town I'm paying attention to who needs to be prodded and stuff

FA please confirm to everyone that I'm town here!

Kinda silly but people inherently don't like to lie. He doesn't say I'm town, he says "someone else tell them I'm town" cuz he doesn't have to lie. I do this as scum.

No. This isn't true and if you don't believe me I think I can probably find examples. Usually AtE is NAI but there are plenty of times where you can look at it at think "wow, that emotion doesn't make sense as town, that's definitely a fake anger to try and make the other person back off "

I can show you examples where Scum and town have both given AtE. I've been frustrated and annoyed as scum the same as town.
Too many players use AtE as an acceptable reason to read players on here and I find that tragic.
Being right on an AtE doesn't mean it's not NAI. Its basically the same as saying x amount of names at the start of the game and if right at the end going "Yeah this is a thing".

I'm not wrong here.

This is NAI but I want to bring it up again because he's dumb here. This argument is just dumb. He's saying that because both scum and town use AtE, AtE is NAI. It baffles me how someone can manage to make terrible leaps up and down the logic tree like this.

Ducks and Humans both have feet. If it has feet, I can't tell what it is. It doesn't matter if you tell me what type of feet they have, webbed feet are still feet, so I can't tell if it's human or duck still.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Ugh every time I read Vediths ISO I have to come across that string of posts again. I think he was maybe misunderstanding what I was saying, in that sometimes you can tell that someone is strangely overreacting to something they definitely shouldn't in order to manipulate another player away from a lynch, and he thought I was saying that all AtE was alignment indicative, but it still makes me feel all woozy to try to wrap my brain around it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Narp. There's lotsa people I'd never lynch D1. For example, the mod, RC, Elli, skitter, ETL....

Some people are more useful than others. If a player is very useful as town, I'm liable to leave them around a few days for two reasons: A. They're likely to eat a nightkill if they're town. B. If I'm wrong about them having more of their thoughts is better than having less of their thoughts.

You said no and then failed to apply reasons as to why you think that keeping someone around only because you think they're good as town without giving reasons you think they're town does not show a lack of read or grasp on what alignment you think that player is.

I reworded it the long way so you could see t better, but my point is I'm not saying keeping someone around because you think they're good as town is scummy, I'm saying that because that's his only reason to defend her and he won't post a town read on her or even try to read her, but instead he tries to dismantle the arguments made against her, he still has room to make his own arguments without contradicting himself.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

:thorface:

Your scumcase boils down to:

1. He asked that someone be prodded <48 hours into the game. Apparently because he wanted to be seen as proactive.
2. He asked someone to say he was town.
3. Something you say is NAI.













On a scale from 1 to Even, I just can't.

Jingle you ****. You asked for ****ing examples and I gave MORE EXAMPLES than the ones I ALREADY ****ING GAVE YOU/

QUIT PUTTING ****ING WORDS IN MMY MOUTh
If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Okay. Do you think he should have had a strong read on Shoshin at that point in the thread?

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

[Extrapolated Eagle]

My point with the other post is that pretty much eveery post that Vedith has made this game is scummy or NAI, because they're all the four types of posts we've discussed so far. I got one of each of the other three types since we were already talking about the first one

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

Why? I don't have a read on Shoshin and I think the wagon on her is terrible.

Trying to dismantle a wagon this early in the game with no read on the player is like questioning an RVS vote. It's terribad.

If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

Yes. I asked for examples. I asked for examples of these specific behaviors:

not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

Arguably, the prod DDL thing could be lamist. I disagree, but I can kind of see how that might be a thing a person would think. I haven't seen the rest. Pick a post that shows to me a lack of engagement or investment. Show me fake words and fake stances. Show me a lie.

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Nope. Pushing back against RVS votes is how you get out of RVS.

Really? This game is full of scums, then, cuz I saw a lot of RVS votes that went unquestioned.
Also, pushing back against RVS votes != trying to dismantle the argument behind RVS votes.
Also,
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=125
Scum was quick to call it TvT. Like Vedith did here. Pushback and questioning of RVS votes lead to a stale game on page five.

I think I'd shudder if I got in a mafia fame and people started seriously questioning every RVS vote. Makes shivers go down my spine.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

you saying "why did you randomly vote shoshin" is different from you saying "don't RVS vote shoshin because your reasoning is bad"

Addressing arguments I'm not making only moves us sideways and makes me more frustrated

[Extrapolated Eagle]

OK. I vote for Jingle.

Jingle says why?

I say cuz I don't like your avi

You say yeah well you're scum cuz that's a bad reason and vote for me.

That's push back. We have two people with two votes both expressing their opinion of who they want to lynch, where their read lies and why, and people can push one way or the other now for further reactions. That gets people out of RVS

Another example.

I say I vote for jingle

You say why

I say cuz I don't like your avi

You say your argument is dumb, stop voting for me

This goes back and forth until I stop voting for you.

Now we have two players and no votes, nothing indicating who has what read on who, who wants to lynch who, or anything like that. Just two null reads. That's what vedith is doing. He doesn't have a read. He's not pushing back. He's trying to stop the person from voting. See how it's different? See how what he's doing is useless and anti-town?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

No. Because there's still information to analyze.

Is your reason for voting Shoshin dumb? Should Vedith have a read on Shoshin? Does Vedith have a different person he's interested in pursuing?

How is what Vedith is doing any different than if he'd come into the thread without a read on Shoshin and blindly sheeped you for pressure?

What information do you've to analyze? Please share with me how your read on DT or anyone other than Before changed because of Vedith saying the vote on shoshin was dumb.

I saw you make the argument that he took a stance. That's my argument too. He took a stance that doesn't help town at all. He's still free to push shoshin if he makes up his own reason - he wouldn't be contradicting himself because he never town read her.

How does blindly sleeping me help anything on Shoshin? Do you, for some reason , think that I was pushing Shoshin?

Eh, that part is kind of off topic. I'll answer your question even though you imply I was pushing shoshin, from which I can infer that your skim was to skimmy. If he had come in the thread and blindly sheeped me on himself or frozen angel , depending on when you're saying he came in at, it would have helped me read frozen Angel a lot better, because FA responds with tells that I can read better when she thinks I'm making an argument people believe against her. If he had sheeped me on himself, I would have the same discussion with him that I had with shoshin. If he had sheepd DT on Shoshin, it probably would have helped because it would indicate the Shoshin wagon was gaining traction and she might be more likely to town spew, which would have helped me read her a bit better and it would show me he's interested in finding other players alignments, not acting from a place of certainty.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

Counterpoint:

Why is shosin still alive?

4 more votes needed.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Shoshin isn't today's lynch.
I'd rather away from DT but I'll lynch DT over Shoshin.

I didn't like the fuel on the fire saying that a game we just had was almost lost from self voting.
It's a different situation all together, and as said, both players to do it were town so BuJ should surely have the mentality that it's a townier thing to do.

VOTE: NerfedBuJ

While pushing against the Shoshin wagon, Vedith was offering alternatives.

I knew you were going to post this. Counterpoint:

UNVOTE: DoubtingThomas

Im sure this is TvT all over.
And lazy town/Scum are encouraging it for easy mis lynches.

His push on DoubtingThomas was only to get a townread for himself, like I said before. He wasn't pushing that seriously at all.

And his counterpoint to the wagon on Shoshin is "I want her alive because she's strong town"
She was at like L-5 at the peak of her wagon, and how often have you seen a player lynched based off an argument that happened in RVS? How is being afraid of her lynch here reasonable at all?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

If Vedith thought scum was actually enccouraging him v DT as TvT for mislynches, why was his vote then placed on NerfedBuj, a player who's ISO between those two posts looks like this:

I think DT is town because I liked his/her comment to Reiuji, his/her pushing of Eagle to clarify, and his/her pushing of Shoshin to respond.

I also think people are mistaken in evaluating the overreaction. I think it is much more likely to come from town.

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

AtE is always NAI. Always.

But for the record.. no it is not.

'AtE is used by both town and scum depending on the situation' is correct.

'AtE is NAI' is incorrect.

We can argue that in both cases AtE tries to get people to do what the emotional person wants, but town and scum want different things so you know, you can actually read into the AtE.

and clearly was discouraging the Vedith v DT.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I've already agreed that we're at an impass there. I think both of those stances are more likely town than scum. I've stated why I think that. I don't find the alternative presented to be more compelling, and honestly I'm not sure why anyone would think I should.

More to the point, I think a lack of read on a player is only AI when there is a reasonable expectation of a read on said player, and I think a lack of read on Shoshin was more or less expected at that point in the game. I would find it more scummy if Vedith DID have a read there.

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

It's largely irrelevant who he was fighting/sheeping wrt the Shoshin wagon. And no, I don't really remember the wagon comp because it was boring. It was a boring wagon, going nowhere, and producing nothing exceptionally juicy.

As for how Vedith's stance has influenced my reads, it's certainly helping with reading you.

You're not paying attention, is what I'm getting at, and it's making me think you're confbiasing yourself into a surface level read.

As to your second point, you're being ridiculous if you think his stance was an intentional move to make me think he was scum and post this argument about him. You're literally making things up on the spot to defend your surface level read on a player because you want to hide the fact that you weren't paying attention, and it's frustrating to me that you wasted my time with your BS.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also, quit only responding to points that you can talk out of your ass on, and respond to the whole thing. Don't respond right now, because it's clear you're still confbiased, but come back, legitimately look at what I'm saying, and consider it.

I think the fact that you still for some reason think that I was pushing Shoshin is baffling to me and I'm legitimately frustrated that you can't see why sitting on the fence and discouraging activity and people pushing their reads is anti-town.

I frankly don't care if you were pushing Shoshin. It's largely irrelevant. What I do care about is why you're so insistent that Vedith have a read one way or the other on her before taking any stance.

I'm rather interested that you, who apparently (I'm just guessing and don't particularly care if I'm right here) don't have a read on Shoshin and didn't take a stance, think that Vedith taking said stance is discouraging activity.

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

And I'd really like a reason why saying "stop pushing someone you're scumreading" when they're null for you is a town-aligned action. Even if you think the argument against them is dumb, if other people seem to think it's smart and the player starts spewing alignment-indicative posts, or people start jumping on the wagon opportunistically, you get reads on a player you previously had a null on, or you start scumreading players for jumping on with opportunistic votes. One way you end up with an argument in the game thread that leads to nowhere, the other way your reads sort themselves out and you get better reads on everyone.

Again, it doesn't look like it led nowhere to me. It looks like it led right here. With people taking stances, interacting, and generally becoming more readable.

This argument is an argument for why scum play is pro-town. Because it leads to discussion and lynching of scum. You're literally arguing right now that anti-town play is pro-town, because his anti-town play lead to this discussion right here. Your arguments are so backwards I cannot fathom how you seem to think anyone else will swallow them.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm asking you to put some LEGITIMATE THOUGHT into what I'm saying and not just say things you made up on the spot cuz you're defending your pride. I don't care if you look dumb. I don't care if I look dumb. I spent most of my life looking dumb, and it's not going to stop me from trying to get scum lynched.

Please at some point in time try to understand what I'm saying and quit making things up on the spot.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

My point is that HE DID NOT TAKE A STANCE ON SHOSHIN.
HE TOOK A STANCE ON THE ARGUMENT.

I agree. I disagree that taking a stance on the argument is bad. I disagree that he should have taken a stance on Shoshin. I also disagree that taking a stance against a wagon on someone you don't have a read on is bad.

You seem to be under the belief that I agree that saying "Yo guys, your wagon sucks" is anti town. It isn't. At all.

I'm not going to try to work through it again with you. You dont' seem to have a solid grasp on the whole of what I'm saying, and I guess that's fine. I'm sorry I stayed up to try and work through this with you

[Extrapolated Eagle]

The funny part is that you think this conversation is about Vedith's alignment.

I'm glad you're capable of coming up with quips that make you appear less thick on the spot, but really it's not necessary.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Oh, no, that's not a quip. I just think the conversation has gotten to the point where I have enough to look at. If I was interested in determining Vedith's alignment through this exchange, I would have needed him to be involved. I can't speak to his motivations from any place of surety.

What I can do is keep you talking to see if what you're saying seems to be consistent and if you actually believe what you're talking about. I'm leaning towards bullshitting, but I need to step back and look at the whole exchange again.

I understood what you were saying. I'm saying you're making things up to hide the fact that you still have yet to consider my argument as a whole, IMO, and you saying you think I'm BSing because I called you out on your BS is OMGUS at the lowest level.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Actually, I take that back. Props if you really were trying to read me there, jingle. It was a bad idea, though, if you were, and I said so in the thread already. I'm still working on things. I'll townspew in a couple days.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Not reading and making wild accusations is pretty scummy, EE

Where am I not reading?

I disagree on your second point depending on context. What do you think RVS is?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

But I'd still lynch buj over you right now

This isn't a town post

[Extrapolated Eagle]

DDL please explain to me what you think RVS is.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Rei yell at me about why I'm wrong on Vedith

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also stop putting me in your town reads I'm not doing town things yet.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

It's harder for me to trust people putting me in their town reads because it looks like you're trying to buddy me, or your reads are surface.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Overreaction is one word for it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Rei yell at me about why I'm wrong on Vedith

I don't think I can really explain it to you, because I'm basically grabbing the same quotes you grabbed and calling it town because of the reason exactly opposite of what you stated.

Ok, makes sense.

Sorry.

@everyone do you like where you feel the game is headed right now

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I feel like people have a misunderstanding of what RVS is, what purpose it fulfills, the ability to use the same idea throughout the game, and the reason that it works and is used almost universally.

Which is one reason I opened with RQS.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

People meta-reading alts is hilarious.

"Hey guys, I wanna change!"
"Let's lynch him, he's different!"

Yeah I'm not impressed with what I've seen from Alisae as far as thought process so far, but I like them as a person, so... :/

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Probably because the question you asked me was dumb.

This:

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

What looks towny about Vedith and PvtUrist to you?

Talking theory is towny? Anyone could post this without even reading the game. How do you ever townread this?

I already said why Vedith's town.

I never said Pvt is town. Again, don't put words in my mouth.

You're asking me why I'm townreading a player for taking a stance that moves the game forward, while in the next line you townread a player for taking a stance that moves the game backwards.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

ALso I didn't say you thought Pvt was town. I asked you what looks towny about them to you. If the answer is nothing, please just say "nothing." I'm not trying to get you to explain your reads, I'm trying to get you to see what I"m seeing as far as where the game is and where it's heading. You'll get a lot farther with the game if you stop assuming and contradicting your mindset

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

Sorry, my b.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I take it back then, I got your case on vedith mixed up with jingles. Sorry, my bad.

Saying I townread buj is a bit of an extreme statement. He seems pretty towny to me because he took a stance that moved the game forward, to answer your question

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What question are you wanting me to answer, Shos?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

Eagle, why aren't you suspicious of DT for this reasoning?

This is a worse question than the one I quoted.

How many people have I disagreed with or thought their reasoning was dumb this game? How many of them have I called scum?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I actually saw that question and thought "there's no way she actually wants me to answer that" so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You want me to be suspicious of DoubtingThomas because he has reasoning I kinda disagree with, even after I went head to head with you and described in DETAIL how I despise things about the way you're thinking and playing right now.

You're actually dumb if you think disagreeing with someone is cause to scumread them, and it's wildly inconsistent of you, because you didn't call me scum even though I disagreed with you.

Basically I think even though they had good intentions, EE and DT used the word PL and destroyed your wagon before it had a chance to start. But discussion wise thise whole game was and is moving in a positive direction

Pedit - now I need to clarify that I'm still talking to shoshin

I didn't want a wagon on Shoshin. I wasn't trying to lynch her, and I wasn't sold on her as scum. I wanted to go through how bad of a play it is to self-vote and make it enough hell that we don't have to deal with it again.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Shoshin it's really getting on my nerves that it seems you're making reads based on how you feel and then trying to make the facts fit your feelings.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

VOTE: Vedith

I really recommend you push me if you're going to vote me, though, Shoshin, because right now there's no support for a wagon on me.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

And if you think you were ever in danger of being lynched I think you're understimating the effect of site meta on how games go.

This is what baffles me. Anyone talking about wagons this early in the day leading to a lynch is crazy at best. Too many people making assumptions about how things MIGHT go and working with whatever scenario they want to instead of what's actually happening.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

That wasn't a "look at these specific posts he's scum," because that's not what my read on him is. It's an overall failure to maintain a town aligned mindset along with the anti-town stances he took. I gave those specific posts to show jingle that across Vediths four different types of posts there hasn't been anything he did that pushes a town agenda

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also I'm the only one voting Vedith. I'm the only person who's shown willingness to vote Vedith. When I bring it up, people laugh me off. Accusing me of pushing a mislynch by myself when there are so many other viable wagons implies you think that everyone else is scum and I'm trying to detract from their wagon, which is frankly ridiculous. In what scenario is it a scum agenda to examine players that look like most others have been just giving them an easy read and moving on with a bit more of a close inspection? Doesn't it seem more scummy to want to look at the common wagons and share thoughts on those? One of the largest problems for town is getting into the next day and finding there are players that haven't shared enough of the critical eye, IMO, players that have been skating by under the radar. Vedith and Pvt both fall into this category, but Pvt is less of a concern as he's getting replaced and was also lurking.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

If you think my case on Vedith is solely because of RQS or even largely based on RQS, you're mistaken. If you think RQS is useless and a joke to use when you casing people, you're also mistaken. I'm doing the same thing you are right now, the difference is I'm putting thought into it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

@Jingle

come vote with me

Pedit: I Don’t actually care I just want you to shut up

Telling me to shut up for answering questions other people ask me is kinda rude. Please stop.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Please understand I am asking you to stop since you are doing nothing but decreasing moral by wanting to be that one guy who deathtunnels a slot the whole game and does nothing else.

You are part of a way bigger problem

You're mistaken if you think that's where this is going at all.

I can assure you, it's not.

Also Enter is my main.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Yes. look at vedith's posts and tell me about how scummy he is

or tell me i'm wildly insane and then i will go cri in a corner

Does this look like the post of someone who's trying to deathtunnel someone?

Does this look like the post of someone who won't consider a case made for the other player?

Did I ask you to vote Vedith with me or did I ask to consider that he might be scum and get back to me?

Am I pushing for his lynch right now or reading and responding to other players because I don't like any of the current wagons so I'm getting people to talk about someone no one else is talking about or even considering and reading them off of that?

Seriously look at my posts, Alisae. What of them looks like I'm tunneling to you?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

You have 176 posts
176 of those posts are deathtunneling vedith
Please let that sink into your head for a bit

You need to recount there. I'm responsible for a large portion of the content in the thread. I asked you to consider Vedith and you wouldn't even engage me on him.

I voted Vedith awhile ago but I haven't been pushing him the entire time I was voting him. At first I just kind of sat and looked, watched, and pushed other things. You're not aware of the thread, you're aware of your feelings on the most recent thing that happened. Stop and think, please

[Extrapolated Eagle]

What's your read on Buj, Alisae?

I literally could not give a fuck right now I haven’t read a single post, nor do I plan on it until I feel like playing the game again

LOL.

Also I don't mind cuz I was planning on outing eventually, but threatening to out people's alts isn't cool especially for people that are trying to start over. You literally attempted blackmail on myself and rei which is kinda funny but also kinda ..
Bad. You're acting like a spoiled child. These people aren't behaving like I like so I'm going to blackmail them into doing what I want them to.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

The idea that "good players do this" or 'this is how it's been done before" that's so prevalent in this game is the reason people get killed in the real world - performing actions without knowing or understanding the why.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Comparing self-voting to rape isn't funny.

I think he made the comparison because it's true, not because it's funny.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

why are we acting like that post was even remotely okay to make EE

Because I weighed my options and considered that if that was all it took to help her realize she has several fundamental flaws in her thinking, it would be worth the price.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm here to play mafia. To learn how people think act and respond to various stimuli, and to challenge the thought processes of myself the people around me.

Playing groupthink is boring and I'm not interested in it.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I'm here to play mafia. To learn how people think act and respond to various stimuli, and to challenge the thought processes of myself and the people around me.

Playing groupthink is boring and I'm not interested in it.

EBWOP

[Extrapolated Eagle]

i was raped as a kid. i don't want to see people who have done nothing wrong besides, at worst, playing suboptimally (in your view) being accused of supporting rape. i don't want to read about rape in mafia games.

if DT gets removed from the game I'll consider voting elsewhere but I don't townread their play either as much as I wanted to deal with them on a later day

She's not being accused of supporting rape. You having been raped as a kid has nothing to do with the game. Stop twisting people's words. You're literally making this into the problem you pretend to be so scared of.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I wrote a lot out, but I don't think it was very productive or helpful to anyone here, so I'm just going to say suboptimal play is not the worst thing she's being accused of here

[Extrapolated Eagle]

How did I harm you by self-voting, DT?

If you're going to ask this to me, I've already answered this question.

Sorry you had to replace out, DT. People here have a problem of thinking about how things make them feel than the actual meaning of the words used, and it sucks that you were a victim of their brainwashed bs. It was fun playing with you.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

i think that we win or at least get 2/3 of scum by lynching the playerlist from least posts to most

Annnnd we're back to discussing policy lynches.

LOL

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Don't get me wrong I fully support

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Policy lynching Iurkers

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I can do this

VOTE: clemency

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Telling other people to ignore me in a game agmbout engaging people is disrespectful to the ability of the other person to think for themselves, inconsistent with your mindset, and overall an ignorant way to play. Please stop.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I think Shoshin is the kind of player who is far easier to read if you ignore her and am frustrated that she's the center of attention.

who's PB?

Pink Ball. He also has a Kirby avatar. I think that might be the only think you have in common.

Yeah. This was my standard for the past bit, but she's encouraging other players to ignore me which is unacceptable. I want to put the person who encouraged her double standards and ignorant play through a meat slicer.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Telling other people to ignore me in a game agmbout engaging people is disrespectful to the ability of the other person to think for themselves, inconsistent with your mindset, and overall an ignorant way to play. Please stop.

I assume no one can think for themselves. I'm infrequently pleasantly surprised to be wrong.

I'm in the same boat. I'd rather engage someone who can think for themselves that is dumb and half-witted than someone who's life is determined by what everyone else decides is right.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

She's got two working on three players on replace outs. This might be why she has managed to be carried through games before.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

FA's replace out was a little oversensitive imo, although I understand that some people don't have particularly thick skins. I wouldn't blame Shoshin for DT at all.


I'm not dropping my PVT read yet. PR seems like I don't need to prod him tho.

VOTE: Gemerald

I'm not really going to respond much to this anymore because it's hard for me to discuss her without saying anything about her character or lack thereof.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I think Shoshin is the kind of player who is far easier to read if you ignore her and am frustrated that she's the center of attention.

So you're

1) not committing to a read
and
2) suggesting that everyone doesn't go after her

seem about right?

also, you weren't responding to anything that happened in the last 10 pages but this is what you immediately pop in for?

Jingle doesn't scumread people for not committing to a read, we went over this.

And he's not suggesting people don't go after her.

I personally think Jingle is town. Talk about Gamma/Clem, though?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Let's ignore EE for now. Knowing he's Enter makes me feel a lot better about him flipping town. He's just bad at the game.

1. Uncalled for.
2. Only partially true, my play when I came back from an almost three year hiatus as Enter was rusty, and I've never played a PR before so I made some dumb mistakes, but
3. I'm not overall bad at the game, and that was a pretty bad statement to make if you've only played one game with me and you haven't seen a repeated instance of anti-town play (which you wouldn't have, because I haven't done that as Enter)
4. If you're a loopdan alt, let me know in a PM and I'll replace out immediately. Otherwise I'll give you time to get it through your head that disagreeing with you is not being bad at mafia and maybe fix some of your double standards and other stuff you've got going for you

Lots of under-handed fuckery going on in this game. Uncalled for shit like threatening to out people's alts and making passive-aggressive comments with no purpose. Double-standards, thickheaded ignorance, and self-righteousness abound.

I'm weighing my options right now

we're not lynching gamma or clem

Alright, who are you thinking about other than Jingle/Shosh? I agree the interaction there is awkward, but my read on shoshin is a lot of "wow you're a bad person doing a lot of anti-town things"

And for some reason I keep thinking that she's got it stuck in her head that doing anti-town things is townie, and for that reason I excuse it. Can you counter?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Jingle doesn't scumread people for not committing to a read, we went over this.

Not accurate. It's not the read or the lack of read that is noteworthy. It is the comparison of whether the read matches what should be there. If someone has a read that is unreasonable to have that's a thing to check. If someone doesn't have a read when they very much should, that's a thing to check. If someone doesn't have a read on someone who's been NAI that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

What about someone who doesn't have a read but is taking a side in an argument on the person?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

80% sure Shoshin is the main and fairly newbish.

She plays like newb but talks as if she's played a lot, so I judged her as such.

Also I haven't played with any females as Enter that aren't the main and are fairly new, so I'm genuinely confused as to who she could be if she is new.