Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Frozen Angel]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

It has been a long time.

Aww you miss me <3

VOTE: Extrapolated Eagle

[Frozen Angel]

EE, I've been good. Extremely Busy these days but good

So you're voting me and you're asking why voting me is a good idea?

[Frozen Angel]

1. How comfortable do you feel playing town/scum?

2. What are you good at, what aren't you good at?

3. What part of playing mafia is most natural to you?

4. What is one thing about the current meta that you think should be changed?

5. How well do you know the other people in this game, and how excited are you to play?

1 - I'm comfortable with both in the same manner.

2 - I'm not sure tbh. I have extremely good town games and extremely good mafia games. I also have extremely shit games sometimes. dependant on the game and players.

3 - all of it is natural tbh not sure what do you mean

4 - Imo most players fixate on stuff that they wish it will tell them others alignment (scumtells and towntells) when the actual game is about finding people motivation in doing such stuff. that is something I've been trying to fight with for ages.

5 - ALI <3 <3 <3

And there are a lot of people I like who are around. I've been away from ms for a while.

[Frozen Angel]

the people I know lycanfire, Gamma Emerald, Clemency, Extrapolated Eagle, Vedith, PvtUrist, Xtoxm AND Ali <3
Also DoubtingThomas

[Frozen Angel]

I think I played with DrDolittle before to

[Frozen Angel]

I play on Mafia Universe and heard a lot of bad and good things about frozen angel lmao.

you heard wrong

I'm good and bad not bad and good

[Frozen Angel]

I play on Mafia Universe and heard a lot of bad and good things about frozen angel lmao.

you heard wrong

I'm good and bad not bad and good

ur just banned

i heard u were a good player tho

from like prada and wolfy

If you heard anything from Prada, what you heard is entirely 100% proved garbage no matter if its good or bad.

And I'm not going to talk about that here if you want, you can ask me about it post game in private.

[Frozen Angel]

Alright will you stop talking about MU or what?

[Frozen Angel]

I'm not mad. Just stop talking about MU or I will replace out cause I'm not really in the mood for hearing about that shit - with respect.

So DT, what do you think about eagle pushing for gamma and me the way they did?

[Frozen Angel]

I just remembered your name.

Pretty sure we played some mash together there didn't we?

[Frozen Angel]

and for shittalking my boy, prada

I'm adding another request to that no mu talk

No Prada mentions, please.

Thanks.

[Frozen Angel]

and for shittalking my boy, prada

I'm adding another request to that no mu talk

No Prada mentions, please.

Thanks.

man you are a one needy girl

Can't help it

[Frozen Angel]

I actually dont like EE's reaction to DT

[Frozen Angel]

@EE how is me "not wanting to hear about someone who is not in this game and a website that is not even the one we're playing mafia in" is related to your decision about voting me or not voting me that you're regretting changing your vote now?

[Frozen Angel]

FA please confirm to everyone that I'm town here!

This guy is my mason buddy if I'm secretly united state president Donald Trump.

I actually dont like EE's reaction to DT

You aren't supposed to.

/Mindgames

[Frozen Angel]

But I need things

[Frozen Angel]

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

Just need to say that:

1 - I use gifs when I want. They were never posted to manipulate people. But I try to be cute -.- sorry if that hurts EE

2 - I lack experience with getting mislynched and lynched as either alignment. Only times it happened in all my mafia career, I either got lynched in lylo by a complete lurker, or people decided to that to send me a message (well what I received was that they are idiots) so don't call me a lynchbait even hypotetichally lycan

3 - I didn't even remotely try to manipulate anyone in any way in any post I made so far so the stuff eagle and shoshin are pursuing (calling my gif manipulative and seeking for reactions about me manipulating) both feel extremely icky and has no genuine thought process but I think I like shoshin less with it.

[Frozen Angel]

@EE posting this one just for you



I'm ready to fight anti-cuteness with cute gifs. come at me man.

[Frozen Angel]

fixed

[Frozen Angel]

why

I couldn't trace his emotions in it.

He was joking about something sirious he was doing and it just felt bizzare.

words joking and sirious are not accurate. not sure how to describe it. Lets say "Out of place"

[Frozen Angel]

It's been a while. What part of the body do you play with the most, FA? Your heart, your gut, or your brain?

The gut and what you counted as the heart (emotions) are mainly originated functions in our right hemisphere in the brain so I say brain.

I look at things from different channels to see what I can deduce.

how do you play the game?

pedit: What are your current reads ali?

pedit: Rei is just branching rn.

I really need to sleep early tonight. been a LONG week.

pedit: omg!!!!!!!!!!! its yume!

[Frozen Angel]

tldr; stop posting like that and let me post next time >.>

[Frozen Angel]

pedit: What are your current reads ali?

Eagle town tbh not much to really good off of aside from that, nothing interested me in the last few pages.
But that’ll change prolly.
You?

my current main read is that I'm sleepy. I think I'm going to start from there and see how things develop - in bed.

beside that, I said a few stuff that bothered me and a few stuff that confused me in my other posts.

[Frozen Angel]

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

What FA's manipulative posting? Please quote my posts and show me which posts are you even talking about

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

I find this pretty scummy as well so I dunno how Alisae's getting town on FA either.

Elaborate on why that post of me is scummy to you

I don't know what are you even talking about
What manipulative posting? And What do you mean about "same reaction" same reaction to what? Which eagle reaction are you even talking about?

It bugs me cause it feels like you're ghost hunting and I find it kinda scummy

[Frozen Angel]

This is boring.

VOTE: Shoshin

[Frozen Angel]

What's the harm in self-voting?

[Frozen Angel]

I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

I hate policy lynching

Policy lynching is like telling the idiots that you care for them.

It makes them feel loved.

Just moving on from this crap. hopefully all other pages is not just policy lynch discussions and there are game relevant content.

@Shoshin If you are town, the harm you did to game was way more extreme than 3 free kills to mafia. By making the discussions about if you are worthy to get policy lynched or not, you tried to ruin the day-game in this game.

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

[Frozen Angel]

All of you haters need to break out your boxes. Self-voting doesn’t mean anything bad will happen.

VOTE: Doubting

See? No harm done.

To be clear, I voted myself to get a wagon going. It wasn't "AtE" or because I was "scumread." It was to consolidate votes.

I find this post towny.

(Still #@$#@) but towny.

@Shoshin You must find scums. Getting a wagon going on yourself will prove nothing to you. How experienced are you with mafia?

[Frozen Angel]

sure eagle when I get there I look at it

Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

Not related to the game as it's not AI again in this context pretty sure but:

Spoiler:

On a separate note, Threatening to replace out the way you did it here should be against the game rules cause it's just shit. Play better and not get lynched. Threatening to replace out before getting lynched for an action you committed in the game is like destroying the chess board cause you are loosing.

[Frozen Angel]

CREATIVE PLAYS INCOMINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG



VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS

Yeah, this fire is irking me rn a little bit.

Did you have a bad experience with self-votes from previous games that it fired you up like this?

[Frozen Angel]

Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.

Good post here

[Frozen Angel]

Frozen Angel please discuss how you feel you're being read by the game right now and whether or not you think that's fair.

I'm not sure how I'm read by a bunch of players here.

Shoshin said something about me being manipulative which still makes no sense. lycan fire attacked it cause it had a logical flaw in progression. I still don't understand the basis of that argument.

I understood your point though, about my gif posting and all, I liked your posts about it specially that "manipulative is not the correct word but I stick with it" post was really good. I didn't understand why you hesitated in explaining your read about me to DT. I didn't like the way DT didn't give their read about me there either.

About Ali I have a bunch of mixed feelings that I'm sorting out rn. But they definitly gave their town read on me "Too early" for my liking. They even said it was too early afterward but I have a hard time digesting it. Waiting for more context from ali tbh.

[Frozen Angel]

Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?

Spoiler: Towncore

Spoiler: Towncore candidates

Spoiler: Scum candidates

Everybody else is null.

I don't like this

[Frozen Angel]

I'm going to respond to EE's discussion on PLs briefly. If you're not EE, please feel free to ignore.

Spoiler:

Who sets the "bar"? Who defines "baseline acceptable for town"? You? The point is, reasonable people disagree about how to play the game. You might think self-voting is unacceptable while others find it perfectly legitimate. What gives you more insight than others?

I don't think you (or anyone) knows what's optimal or unacceptable. Mafia's too complex. In the post-game, it's easy to point at behaviors/actions that cost the game. But while the game's ongoing, nobody knows shit about what's optimal/unacceptable. How do you know that lurking, sheeping, self-voting, fakeclaiming, or lying won't work out this time? Different setup, different circumstances, different players -- all these things might change whether something works or doesn't.

So I don't think it's fair to PL someone for deviating from your idea of what's acceptable. I apply a simple (non-arbitrary) standard: If someone's making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. They might do something you dislike but that doesn't mean you should punish them for thinking about the game differently than you, especially while the game is ongoing. Post-game, you can discuss all you want. But until the game is over, nobody has absolute knowledge about whether it's the right/wrong play.

The strongest players I know don't bat an eye at self-voting or lying. Most of them partake on occasion. So the idea that stronger players don't engage in these sorts of behaviors is demonstrably false. If anything, it's the players who never improve that limit themselves in this way. After all, how do you expect to improve if you put yourself in a box?

You attack my play as suboptimal. So what? Do you PL someone anytime they do something that you find suboptimal? I'd hope that you at least have the humility to recognize that just because you think something's wrong during a game doesn't mean it's actually wrong (this turns out to be the case with reads quite often, for example). I usually get called "bad," "horrible," "atrocious," etc. during games by players who later call me "amazing," "GOAT," "MVP," "god tier," in the post-game. What's happening there? Incomplete knowledge shades how you view things.

And that applies anytime you're pushing a PL. Incomplete knowledge shades everything you do. I'll also note, pushing PLs gives control to the scum because they easily avoid them when in games with you. It's also too easy for scum to push mislynches via PLs. And at the end of the day, it's always possible to distinguish town/scum regardless of what behavior someone's engaging. I usually love when players lie because it's easy access to their motive (why'd they lie? was it to further scum agenda? if not, they're probably town because scum don't lie without reason to do so).

For what it's worth, I have roughly a 75% win rate as town (if you include alts) so I'd say I'm doing pretty well with my chosen tactics, including lurking, sheeping, lying, fakeclaiming, and self-voting. While people might dislike them during games, nobody questions the results afterwards. I hope that you will revisit this in the endgame as well instead of attacking it with incomplete knowledge. I also hope that you revisit your view on PLs.

Spoiler:

Funny story

I once acted like that I'm self-hammering myself and claimed for real that I'm a macho tracker. Then I got track guilty result 2 nights in row (as I saw the correct mafia shooting people) and called out a no-kill gambit correctly on their night where the mafia decided to finally kill me and realized they can't get me lynched.

Every action has its moment and might help the game.

You proved in this game that you don't know about such momentums and higher level gaming.

What you did here was not beneficial to the town. You did not progress the game in any manner. You just ruined the earlier discussions.

So grow up. Learn to play better. Don't do anti-town crap in my games if you don't know what you are doing. Fair?

[Frozen Angel]

He caught what I was doing (building a wagon)

You did not build a wagon

I like your DT read though. I didn't like that reaction either.

[Frozen Angel]

Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

I hated this post so much.

Defending me now solidifies the read.

makes me vomit especially since its made about

"I don't want shoshin lynched today"

[Frozen Angel]

I'm tired - angry and a bit bored of reading this crap about self-voting.

Had a couple of shit to say that I'm not going to anymore.

Just that Shoshin your game-play so far in this game sucks. I'm not going to insult you as a person, nor as a player. Just that you're having a very very very aweful game here and I hope you step it up.

done. Please for the love of god. End this crap in the game thread. No more posts about self-voting itself. Just discuss

this game

.

pedit: Don't make me insult you.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

Also before I forget.

Please don't look up to RC.

He is a bad mentor for teaching town game. No offense was meant to him.

I and RC were close friends at some point. I have a lot of games played with him - probably more than all of you combined.

[Frozen Angel]

@shoshin why you keep ignoring my question?

you mentioned "Frozen Angels manipulative posting" Several times

What manipulative posting? Quote and show what posts are you talking about NOW

pedit: You're cute ali. As I said mixed feelings. The gun on your head is not helping.

pedit: I'm in the process of developing my reads. If you were reading my posts like a proper human you would see me transparently mentioning them as they developed. Do you have any specific questions about them or what?

And boring is your face. Go wash your mouth before talking to me.

[Frozen Angel]

eeeeeh if eeeeeh is a little bit stronger than maybe.

I really did not like your work so far about EE read or the read on me but that doesn't suggest you're scum - just need more content from you.

[Frozen Angel]

who do you want dead?

I'm not sure yet.

DT and vedith stuck out so far but not for "such" good reasons and I'm not really confident. I have no strong read on a lot of players here and since the game atmosphere is toxic and not game relevant atm, it's so hard to make judgments.

I wish I would go and do my serial questioning style instead of how I started it.

who do you want dead?

[Frozen Angel]

@shoshin why you keep ignoring my question?

you mentioned "Frozen Angels manipulative posting" Several times

What manipulative posting? Quote and show what posts are you talking about NOW

VOTE: Shoshin

this is making a wagon ^

[Frozen Angel]

What do you remember about my scum meta?

I really don't

I remember how you would try to be liked to survive though - probably without being aware of it.

On another separate note, your vote on me feels artificial AF and it dropped you a tier in my reads. I think you did it cause I said alis town read on me happened to early. You of all people here should know that if you really want to sort me, voting is not the way, but you did that anyway.

On another separate note I will not unvote till shoshin show the posts they called manipulative and explains them. I'm a little stubborn freak when it comes to players like them

Especially since they just talk crap to alisae and refused to answer me. I hate people who act like zombies. I prefer to see them lynched if they keep that up.

[Frozen Angel]

You can vote shoshin with me too ali

Their wagon is not yet fully built.

They really really wanted it themselves. iso them and see how proudly they claimed they wanted it to happen

They're just at L-4 its not pressuring enough

maybe L1 L0 or L-1 will do

[Frozen Angel]

Why FA, Alisae?

This is an A and B conversation you can C your way out until your invited in.

And you don't have the right to throw them out of this convo Alisae. @Shoshin C your way back in. I wanna know your opinion on Alisae.

And I want your response to my repeated question.

[Frozen Angel]

I feel like a mother who must discipline her children in this game. So many rude behaviors instead of doing what you must do.

No cookies for you Alisae for throwing shushin out and no cookies for shoshin for the way they are dodging that question.

[Frozen Angel]

@shoshin why you keep ignoring my question?

you mentioned "Frozen Angels manipulative posting" Several times

What manipulative posting? Quote and show what posts are you talking about NOW

[Frozen Angel]

I avoided giving a read on you cause I consider you as someone who is capable of going deep and giving an early read on you is a dangerous act.

In general, I give reads when I have them and I won't vomit reads. That is me in every game.

Again you should remember that about me - how I ask stuff and appear to be not following them. I transparently say what I got but I don't give cheap reads if thats what you're asking of me

[Frozen Angel]

Shushin was "ghost hunting" earlier when they tried to jump on the perspective EE was pushing and they repeatedly dodged to respond to questions about it

when they were getting attention they self voted to distract the thread. Then they tried to make themself look like someone who is reaction testing - their read on vedith about how he defended him is just artificial

Conclusion: They are very likely a scum who were trying to manipulate the game state with that action as it is right now.

We need to make them talk or die.

[Frozen Angel]

that sounds better I guess but where did you get this strength from?

I have the strength of Artemis the goddess of the hunt.

I was holding that trigger for a while hoping for them to answer that question for a while. Decided to let it go to see what'll happen.

@Shoshin Show me the game you're reading, then. I bet it's easier than self-voting and is more interesting.

Why did you dodge my question repeatedly and why are you dodging it now?

[Frozen Angel]

It doesn't feel like FA's reading the same game as me.

tbf
you should just address her concerns
so you are slightly in the wrong here as well

as well suggests I'm in the wrong here too

Please elaborate

[Frozen Angel]

for new page:

@shoshin why you keep ignoring my question?

you mentioned "Frozen Angels manipulative posting" Several times

What manipulative posting? Quote and show what posts are you talking about NOW

[Frozen Angel]

I don't really get why FA thinks I'm scum. If it's because I ignored her questions, she's provably wrong via meta. Besides that, she's telling a false narrative about me trying to manipulate the game. I don't have anything to say in response other than she's wrong about my intentions.

I didn't know you before this game

how is anything I said related to meta?

[Frozen Angel]

I have no comments.

I ignore questions as town so that isn't scummy for me.

You're a piece of work.

Why are you playing mafia again?

Who was your first game IC? Seriously is this what MS calls players nowadays? What is this in my game here? ali is all games here like this?

I'm not unvoting until I receive my answers. I swear to my dead parents that I won't unvote until you satisfy my curiosity.

Learn that answering the questions and questioning are the main elements of the day game in mafia. Till then never EVER play a game of mafia. Please. I BEG you.

Or you can replace out of the game right now like you threatened before.

[Frozen Angel]

Go play Mario

there you don't have to answer questions.

[Frozen Angel]

Yes god yes I will.

and I won't call it a PL. You were lieing and you are dodging the questions cause you have no answer to it. You self vote to distract the game state even though you were the popular wagon EVEN before that. You are shitting in thread by crap like "My meta is to not answer questions as town" like that fucking makes any sense

You better get out of this game one way or another.

I can't tolerate your shit anymore.

[Frozen Angel]

Is FA usually like this, Alisae?

why are you still in my game? get out! you said you will, didn't you?

Replace out right now.

never play games with me ever again

get the fuck out

[Frozen Angel]

chill shifty

If they don't get removed from this game in this day phase, I will replace out.

See I can threat like that too

[Frozen Angel]

I didn't know I can hate anyone like this just for the way they play a game

Them not answering my question triggered my mental illness so I had to use some pills. I'll leave this till later.

[Frozen Angel]

My replace out threat post was not real btw.

I will stay here. They are getting lynched.

[Frozen Angel]

Frozen Angel's first posts weren't particularly manipulative which is why I changed my vote, if anyone's wondering.

Did anyone else have this reaction to FA's posts?

Reactions matter, yes. The issue isn't whether he needs a reason to change his vote, it's whether a townie would react the way he did.

These were shoshin posts about EE post about me. EE was talking about how I post emotionally and how I use gifs and that makes pushing against me harder - he even clearly mentioned he didn't mean I ever tried to manipulate. But shoshin was talking about some of my posts here in this game - which they called manipulative

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

This is how they reacted to me saying I don't know what are they talking about:

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

I find this pretty scummy as well so I dunno how Alisae's getting town on FA either.

Lycan fire attacked them for the way they were asking for similar reactions to my manipulative posting

What i'm saying is that shoshin was ghost hunting there.

The wagon on shoshin formed before they self voted. They self voted to make a mess in game thread.

Read how they evaluated their read on vedith:

I don't think I want Shoshin lynched day1

Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

this is basically no evaluation. Vedith is not even defending them there. Its just desprate result making from a bullshit self vote that happened out of nowhere.

And they dodge responding to me questioning their repeated use of "Manipulative posting" with

"I don't answer questions as town. Thats not scummy if you know my meta"

Like no way I will let this pass.

[Frozen Angel]

Frozen Angel's first posts weren't particularly manipulative which is why I changed my vote, if anyone's wondering.

Did anyone else have this reaction to FA's posts?

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

@FA these are the onyl posts in that ISO that have the word "manipulative"
I think your overeacting to something that was just phrased/interpretted (one of those) very fucking badly.
Like I think your angry over a miscommunication

They had a fucking wagon going on cause of those two posts before they self voted.

is 2 posts not enough? should we consider the 10 pages of crap they added to game with that self vote and say yeah the scummy part is too little in that iso so we can ignore it?

What the fuck is your point?

[Frozen Angel]

Why is shosin still alive?

4 more votes needed.

[Frozen Angel]

I actually ....

/I ask to replace out

I really can't handle being in same game with them.

Hopefully, we play in a future game ali that doesn't have people like this

@shoshin just a headsup that you're permenantly banned from playing any games I mod and you're blacklisted. never join the games I'm in and never replace in them. At least be decent enough to do that.

Good bye.

[Frozen Angel]

You kept on quoting this over and over and what I am talking about is meant to help with this.

I don't need your help

[Frozen Angel]

I'm over reacting to what?

They are shit in doing anything

they self vote and make the game about it for pages

they refuse to answer questions cause its their town meta

What kind of freak i will be to tolerate that bullshit?

On another note you know my mentall illness and how ignoring me triggers it. This game at this state is just not healthy for me. They don't worth my anger.

[Frozen Angel]

and pvt this was my civil version.

[Frozen Angel]

but it really comes down to what happens as a result of me helping both parties just now.

This is probably scum Ali btw

had to say it before leaving the game entirely.

[Frozen Angel]

I self-voted to create a better scumhunting environment than the one we had. The result: exposing scum DT, among other things.

and make your better environment in hell where you can hang out with your meta