Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Shoshin]

VOTE: mcqueen

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Extrapolated

[Shoshin]

Frozen Angel's first posts weren't particularly manipulative which is why I changed my vote, if anyone's wondering.

Did anyone else have this reaction to FA's posts?

[Shoshin]

Reactions matter, yes. The issue isn't whether he needs a reason to change his vote, it's whether a townie would react the way he did.

[Shoshin]

What variables did I ignore?

[Shoshin]

Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

[Shoshin]

Why is Eagle town, Alisae?

[Shoshin]

I'm saying uninformed about alignment.

[Shoshin]

I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

I find this pretty scummy as well so I dunno how Alisae's getting town on FA either.

[Shoshin]

What emotion do you feel right now, Shoshin?

I'm not feeling much right now.

[Shoshin]

Hey Xtom, what do you think of EE, FA, and Alisae?

[Shoshin]

What emotion do you feel right now, Shoshin?

Look back, I'm sad that the first wagon we got going (on you) was quickly dismantled before anything interesting happened. I'm also sad that all the votes are split.

[Shoshin]

Can you put names to your reads, Eagle?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Alisae

[Shoshin]

That's about the worst reason I've ever heard for withholding reads. If you're looking for reactions on a specific person, then sure, keep the read to yourself. Otherwise, please out them.

[Shoshin]

Xtom's feeling surprisingly towny.

[Shoshin]

I'm just going to put this out there: I prefer going to by Sho or Shoshin, not Shos.

[Shoshin]

Eagle, since you're so disappointed about the failure of the wagon, how about helping build one on Alisae?

[Shoshin]

Why are you still voting Vedith, Eagle?

[Shoshin]

This is boring.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Shoshin]

What's the harm in self-voting?

[Shoshin]

Xtox has the idea.

[Shoshin]

All of you haters need to break out your boxes. Self-voting doesn’t mean anything bad will happen.

VOTE: Doubting

See? No harm done.

To be clear, I voted myself to get a wagon going. It wasn't "AtE" or because I was "scumread." It was to consolidate votes.

[Shoshin]

Why would you want to consolidate votes on yourself?

To find the scum.

[Shoshin]

Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

[Shoshin]

Policy lynching is a shitty crutch for people who don't know how to distinguish town from scum. It also prevents creative plays & makes games completely unfun.

[Shoshin]

When I say policy lynch, Xtox, I'm talking about lynching people for things that aren't AI (e.g. self-voting). Like, if you caught someone in a role lie, you're lynching them because they're scum, not because of some dumb policy. And in my opinion, if someone's trolling the game, it's the mod's duty to step in, not the players.

[Shoshin]

Why don't you talk about who the scum are instead of PLs, EE?

[Shoshin]

You're the one talking about PLs, EE, not me. I've asked you for reads. You refused. I asked you to vote Alisae. You refused. You're the one who's choosing to talk about NAI stuff, not me.

[Shoshin]

Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?

[Shoshin]

I'm going to respond to EE's discussion on PLs briefly. If you're not EE, please feel free to ignore.

Spoiler:

Who sets the "bar"? Who defines "baseline acceptable for town"? You? The point is, reasonable people disagree about how to play the game. You might think self-voting is unacceptable while others find it perfectly legitimate. What gives you more insight than others?

I don't think you (or anyone) knows what's optimal or unacceptable. Mafia's too complex. In the post-game, it's easy to point at behaviors/actions that cost the game. But while the game's ongoing, nobody knows shit about what's optimal/unacceptable. How do you know that lurking, sheeping, self-voting, fakeclaiming, or lying won't work out this time? Different setup, different circumstances, different players -- all these things might change whether something works or doesn't.

So I don't think it's fair to PL someone for deviating from your idea of what's acceptable. I apply a simple (non-arbitrary) standard: If someone's making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. They might do something you dislike but that doesn't mean you should punish them for thinking about the game differently than you, especially while the game is ongoing. Post-game, you can discuss all you want. But until the game is over, nobody has absolute knowledge about whether it's the right/wrong play.

The strongest players I know don't bat an eye at self-voting or lying. Most of them partake on occasion. So the idea that stronger players don't engage in these sorts of behaviors is demonstrably false. If anything, it's the players who never improve that limit themselves in this way. After all, how do you expect to improve if you put yourself in a box?

You attack my play as suboptimal. So what? Do you PL someone anytime they do something that you find suboptimal? I'd hope that you at least have the humility to recognize that just because you think something's wrong during a game doesn't mean it's actually wrong (this turns out to be the case with reads quite often, for example). I usually get called "bad," "horrible," "atrocious," etc. during games by players who later call me "amazing," "GOAT," "MVP," "god tier," in the post-game. What's happening there? Incomplete knowledge shades how you view things.

And that applies anytime you're pushing a PL. Incomplete knowledge shades everything you do. I'll also note, pushing PLs gives control to the scum because they easily avoid them when in games with you. It's also too easy for scum to push mislynches via PLs. And at the end of the day, it's always possible to distinguish town/scum regardless of what behavior someone's engaging. I usually love when players lie because it's easy access to their motive (why'd they lie? was it to further scum agenda? if not, they're probably town because scum don't lie without reason to do so).

For what it's worth, I have roughly a 75% win rate as town (if you include alts) so I'd say I'm doing pretty well with my chosen tactics, including lurking, sheeping, lying, fakeclaiming, and self-voting. While people might dislike them during games, nobody questions the results afterwards. I hope that you will revisit this in the endgame as well instead of attacking it with incomplete knowledge. I also hope that you revisit your view on PLs.

[Shoshin]

In terms of the current gamestate, this is what I'm getting from the self-vote:

Xtox is town. He easily could have stayed on my wagon if he were scum but he's thinking steps deeper. He caught what I was doing (building a wagon) & moved off as soon as he saw DT's scummy reaction. His earlier posts were already townish but this solidifies the read for me.

DT's likely scum. I don't see town DT responding this strongly to a self-vote when he knows that townies do it all the time. His inability to keep straight whether he's pushing me as a PL or pushing me as scummy scum feels like scum who wants me to get lynched for the self-vote but doesn't want to seem scummy for exclusively pushing a PL. He's also blatantly buddying up to EE in ways that feels like scum/town.

[Shoshin]

Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

[Shoshin]

Hey Vedith, can you vote DT please?

[Shoshin]

I've never seen a town lose because of a self-vote.

[Shoshin]

Response to EE:

Spoiler:

1. As I said before, if someone isn't making a good faith effort to win, the mod should intervene. But if they're making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. As long as players are making a good faith effort to win, it's extremely arrogant of anyone to assume they know better than anyone else what's good/bad in ongoing games.

2. Your description of my self-vote is inaccurate. For starters, my self-vote didn't disassemble the wagon on me. The same people who were voting me before the self-vote are still voting me. Second, my self-vote didn't prevent anyone from catching up or from commenting on things that happened before the self-vote. Third, it wasn't my "best friends" calling me "MVP," it was people who didn't know me, calling me "atrocious," "shamelessly bad" during the game. The fact that they changed their view after the game is what I'm drawing your attention to. We have incomplete knowledge during the game, so you might call something "bad" that actually was "game-winning." Fourth, how can you say I'm "conceited" when I'm just asking you to reserve judgment until post-game? What's "conceited" about that? If it causes actual harm, I'll reevaluate. If it doesn't, I hope you'll reevaluate. Thus far, I think it injected adrenaline into the gamestate in positive ways. I've already refined my reads as a result and I believe others will too.

3. I have won a lot of games as town. The fact I mentioned "alts" should clue you in that it wasn't just four games. I take issue with the fact that you question my results without even knowing anything about me. And why would you question the results instead of yourself? I guess you don't re-examine your views when confronted with actual evidence, huh? Isn't that what you were calling me "conceited" for, not re-examining? To be clear, results are objective evidence. A win is a win. And not many players do it consistently. I strongly suggest that instead of questioning the wins, you question why they're winning. If they're doing things that you think bad, maybe you need to reevaluate whether those things are actually bad. Again, your understanding of mafia is incomplete. The game's too complex for you to pretend like you know the truth about what's optimal/suboptimal. Acting otherwise is the height of arrogance, and you're embarrassing yourself by projecting that arrogance onto me.

Defense of self-voting:

Spoiler:

1. Self-votes have different impacts depending on context. If I self-vote at L-6, it doesn't put me anywhere close to getting lynched. Thus, it causes no actual harm if I remove the vote long before I'm lynched. If I hammer myself, that obviously causes harm because I've helped cause my own lynching. But these are two different things. Context matters.

2. Harmless self-votes still create wagons & reactions. And wagons/reactions can be sorted into town/scum. Thus, harmless self-votes help town scumhunt, especially in situations where there's a lack of information (e.g. early D1).

3. The impact of self-voting largely turns on how other players react. If all the townies decide to PL the self-voter instead of sorting her, then self-voting becomes harmful. But the issue here isn't the self-vote, it's how other players responded. If players don't PL the self-voter, the self-vote becomes harmless. Ironically, self-voting only becomes harmful because of PLing (i.e. when it comes to self-voting, PLing is entirely circular in its justification).

Conclusion: self-voting is like drinking wine, whether it's beneficial or harmful largely depends on other factors that have nothing to do with the vote (or drink) itself.

[Shoshin]

Please read this game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=78729

Buj thanking RC for the win when RC self-votes more than anyone on the site is somewhat funny.

[Shoshin]

Buj, why are you voting me if the self-voter in that game flipped town?

[Shoshin]

Response to EE:

Spoiler:

Please keep this conversation in spoilers so that it doesn't distract players who don't care about this. And please don't put words in my mouth. I'm very precise with my words so please don't add stuff that isn't there. To be clear, I never said my play was objectively optimal. This is what I said:

Fourth, how can you say I'm "conceited" when I'm just asking you to reserve judgment until post-game? What's "conceited" about that? If it causes actual harm, I'll reevaluate. If it doesn't, I hope you'll reevaluate. Thus far, I think it injected adrenaline into the gamestate in positive ways. I've already refined my reads as a result and I believe others will too.

In other words, I said that I would reevaluate after the game based on how things play out. I also asked that you do the same. I'm doing what I think best based on the information I have. This in no way means that I have absolute knowledge about what's optimal/suboptimal. Maybe I'm wrong about this particular self-vote, maybe I'm not. It's too early to tell with anything close to the objectivity you pretend to have.

I also never said that my friends said I'm good at this game. You made that up. This is what I said:

Third, it wasn't my "best friends" calling me "MVP," it was people who didn't know me, calling me "atrocious," "shamelessly bad" during the game. The fact that they changed their view after the game is what I'm drawing your attention to. We have incomplete knowledge during the game, so you might call something "bad" that actually was "game-winning."

This wasn't about bragging or saying I'm good. It was about saying that you're not a god with perfect knowledge of what's optimal/suboptimal.

You calling me "conceited," and questioning my wins without even knowing anything me/them, is uncalled for & baseless. I'd appreciate if insults were left out of this but whatever, I guess it's too late for that.

If you're going to respond to me, please do so in good faith. It's not productive to put words in my mouth that weren't said. If something isn't clear, ask, don't assume.

[Shoshin]

To clarify, I used the term "boring" to describe the gamestate, not to describe my feelings.

[Shoshin]

I'm not sure if scum got cold feet or if I'm just getting bad at being wagoned.

I find this post inconsistent with EE's views on self-voting. How is baiting a self-wagon, or expressing sadness over the dismantling of a self-wagon, different from a self-vote? The intent is the same: finding scum through a self-wagon. What do you think, DDL?

[Shoshin]

I'm just trying to sort EE. He keeps saying I distracted from important stuff but I don't see what I distracted from? Why are you townreading him?

[Shoshin]

This might be my first time, can't remember.

[Shoshin]

but for a reaction test you've never used first hand im just a little more pinged by the overconfidence here. Xtom voting you and then dt isn't what I'd call a deep thought process but more a thing that he did.

I think my confidence gets interpreted as overconfidence sometimes because people expect women to be less confident. I hope that isn't you. Whatever the case, I have experience sorting reactions to self-votes so this isn't something new. I just can't remember if I've done them myself.

As for Xtox, asking himself whether DT's reaction was scummier than my self-vote requires more thought than ignoring reactions to the self-vote. The fluidity in his change was especially towny. Are you scumreading Xtox?

And could you unpack this a bit more?

DT overreacted, not sure what else you want me to say. I think he jumped on the opportunity to push my mislynch while buddying up to EE. Are you townreading DT?

[Shoshin]

I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

[Shoshin]

I like your DT read though. I didn't like that reaction either.

I'm glad you were able to get something useful from the self-vote.

[Shoshin]

I get told my play sucks every game, nothing new. How about telling us your reads instead of talking about boring stuff, FA?

[Shoshin]

This is where I'm at from town to scum:

Xtox
Vedith
DDL
Reiuji
Grapes
EE
Buj
FA
Lycan
Pvt
Gamma
Karmeleon
Clemency
mcqueen
Alisae
DT

[Shoshin]

Why FA, Alisae?

[Shoshin]

It doesn't feel like FA's reading the same game as me.

[Shoshin]

I don't really get why FA thinks I'm scum. If it's because I ignored her questions, she's provably wrong via meta. Besides that, she's telling a false narrative about me trying to manipulate the game. I don't have anything to say in response other than she's wrong about my intentions.

[Shoshin]

I ignore questions as town so that isn't scummy for me.

[Shoshin]

You're going to PL me?

[Shoshin]

Is FA usually like this, Alisae?

[Shoshin]

ngl
idunno what u were expecting

I wasn't surprised by EE's behavior, at least based on his initial RQS. But I didn't expect DT's response based on what I know of him, nor did I expect Buj to vote me after his recent experiences with townies self-voting. I'm also surprised that FA got as upset as she has. I figured most folks would respond like Vedith or DDL. I guess you never know with these things, which is sort of what makes them interesting.

[Shoshin]

These were shoshin posts about EE post about me. EE was talking about how I post emotionally and how I use gifs and that makes pushing against me harder - he even clearly mentioned he didn't mean I ever tried to manipulate. But shoshin was talking about some of my posts here in this game - which they called manipulative

EE said your posts "weren't particularly manipulative." I interpreted that to mean they were slightly manipulative. And I thought EE's reaction to your posts felt off so I questioned it.

Lycan fire attacked them for the way they were asking for similar reactions to my manipulative posting

Lycan's attacks were misplaced. They weren't actually addressing what I was talking about.

What i'm saying is that shoshin was ghost hunting there.

I don't know what "ghost hunting" is.

The wagon on shoshin formed before they self voted.

There were three votes on me when I self-voted, hardly much of a wagon. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye to that if I were scum.

They self voted to make a mess in game thread.

I self-voted to create a better scumhunting environment than the one we had. The result: exposing scum DT, among other things.

this is basically no evaluation. Vedith is not even defending them there. Its just desprate result making from a bullshit self vote that happened out of nowhere.

To clarify, I liked Vedith calling my vote on EE bad because from a certain angle I could see why town Vedith already read EE as obvious town.

Note: Vedith's comment implied that I was scummy. So after the self-vote, I would have expected scum Vedith to continue scumreading me. I think if scum suggested I was scum before the self-vote, it's very unlikely for them to start defending me after. Instead, Vedith shifted his read from scum to town. And that progression solidified my townread on his slot.

If you can't see how my post was talking about Vedith's progression, I don't know what to tell you.

And they dodge responding to me questioning their repeated use of "Manipulative posting" with

"I don't answer questions as town. Thats not scummy if you know my meta"

Like no way I will let this pass.

I don't answer silly questions as town. And I found your question silly so I didn't answer.

As I said, this isn't scummy for me. I have plenty of meta that proves this.

[Shoshin]

What do you think of Buj voting me even though he knows townies self-vote?

[Shoshin]

Why are you townreading Xtox?

[Shoshin]

Why are you still voting me, Grapes?

[Shoshin]

Alisae's a better vote than Xtox.

[Shoshin]

I don't see scum Xtox playing this way. 251 (proactively comparing where he's at to others), 271 (following up my questioning on EE), 314 (looking back through the game), 318 (fluidly moving off my wagon to vote a less juicy target), and 353 -- all feel very towny.

I have a suspicion that I was Xtox's lone townread at the start, and if I'm right about that, there's another reason to townread Xtox. But that one depends. It also doesn't change my overall analysis.

[Shoshin]

I don't know what you're looking for, Grapes. DT's pushing a mislynch on me by emphasizing stuff he calls "anti-town" while ignoring extensive evidence that this stuff isn't AI for me. He's also been unclear about whether he's pushing a PL or pushing me because he thinks I'm flipping scum.

[Shoshin]

I didn't say you should townread me, DT. I'm saying you shouldn't scumread me for things that aren't AI for me.

[Shoshin]

DT, are you saying I'm scum or town who plays anti-town? What's your actual read on me?

[Shoshin]

Because you called my vote on him bad.

[Shoshin]

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

What do you think of this, Grapes?

[Shoshin]

Eagle was actively leading the game, Vedith. It was the easiest townread to have at that point.

[Shoshin]

I'm being unreasonable? How so?

[Shoshin]

That isn't unreasonable. Maybe wrong, but definitely not unreasonable.

[Shoshin]

I keep getting asked, so no, not everyone understands. I'm not just randomly repeating myself.

[Shoshin]

I agree on Buj.

[Shoshin]

Youre posting constant posts about something that everyone already understands or has an idea on your view.*

Which posts?

[Shoshin]

Majority. Anything about or to DT is just over and over.

This is blatantly untrue.

[Shoshin]

These are all the posts where I mention DT:

Spoiler:

Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

In terms of the current gamestate, this is what I'm getting from the self-vote:

Xtox is town. He easily could have stayed on my wagon if he were scum but he's thinking steps deeper. He caught what I was doing (building a wagon) & moved off as soon as he saw DT's scummy reaction. His earlier posts were already townish but this solidifies the read for me.

DT's likely scum. I don't see town DT responding this strongly to a self-vote when he knows that townies do it all the time. His inability to keep straight whether he's pushing me as a PL or pushing me as scummy scum feels like scum who wants me to get lynched for the self-vote but doesn't want to seem scummy for exclusively pushing a PL. He's also blatantly buddying up to EE in ways that feels like scum/town.

Hey Vedith, can you vote DT please?

but for a reaction test you've never used first hand im just a little more pinged by the overconfidence here. Xtom voting you and then dt isn't what I'd call a deep thought process but more a thing that he did.

I think my confidence gets interpreted as overconfidence sometimes because people expect women to be less confident. I hope that isn't you. Whatever the case, I have experience sorting reactions to self-votes so this isn't something new. I just can't remember if I've done them myself.

As for Xtox, asking himself whether DT's reaction was scummier than my self-vote requires more thought than ignoring reactions to the self-vote. The fluidity in his change was especially towny. Are you scumreading Xtox?

And could you unpack this a bit more?

DT overreacted, not sure what else you want me to say. I think he jumped on the opportunity to push my mislynch while buddying up to EE. Are you townreading DT?

I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

This is where I'm at from town to scum:

Xtox
Vedith
DDL
Reiuji
Grapes
EE
Buj
FA
Lycan
Pvt
Gamma
Karmeleon
Clemency
mcqueen
Alisae
DT

ngl
idunno what u were expecting

I wasn't surprised by EE's behavior, at least based on his initial RQS. But I didn't expect DT's response based on what I know of him, nor did I expect Buj to vote me after his recent experiences with townies self-voting. I'm also surprised that FA got as upset as she has. I figured most folks would respond like Vedith or DDL. I guess you never know with these things, which is sort of what makes them interesting.

These were shoshin posts about EE post about me. EE was talking about how I post emotionally and how I use gifs and that makes pushing against me harder - he even clearly mentioned he didn't mean I ever tried to manipulate. But shoshin was talking about some of my posts here in this game - which they called manipulative

EE said your posts "weren't particularly manipulative." I interpreted that to mean they were slightly manipulative. And I thought EE's reaction to your posts felt off so I questioned it.

Lycan fire attacked them for the way they were asking for similar reactions to my manipulative posting

Lycan's attacks were misplaced. They weren't actually addressing what I was talking about.

What i'm saying is that shoshin was ghost hunting there.

I don't know what "ghost hunting" is.

The wagon on shoshin formed before they self voted.

There were three votes on me when I self-voted, hardly much of a wagon. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye to that if I were scum.

They self voted to make a mess in game thread.

I self-voted to create a better scumhunting environment than the one we had. The result: exposing scum DT, among other things.

this is basically no evaluation. Vedith is not even defending them there. Its just desprate result making from a bullshit self vote that happened out of nowhere.

To clarify, I liked Vedith calling my vote on EE bad because from a certain angle I could see why town Vedith already read EE as obvious town.

Note: Vedith's comment implied that I was scummy. So after the self-vote, I would have expected scum Vedith to continue scumreading me. I think if scum suggested I was scum before the self-vote, it's very unlikely for them to start defending me after. Instead, Vedith shifted his read from scum to town. And that progression solidified my townread on his slot.

If you can't see how my post was talking about Vedith's progression, I don't know what to tell you.

And they dodge responding to me questioning their repeated use of "Manipulative posting" with

"I don't answer questions as town. Thats not scummy if you know my meta"

Like no way I will let this pass.

I don't answer silly questions as town. And I found your question silly so I didn't answer.

As I said, this isn't scummy for me. I have plenty of meta that proves this.

I don't know what you're looking for, Grapes. DT's pushing a mislynch on me by emphasizing stuff he calls "anti-town" while ignoring extensive evidence that this stuff isn't AI for me. He's also been unclear about whether he's pushing a PL or pushing me because he thinks I'm flipping scum.

I didn't say you should townread me, DT. I'm saying you shouldn't scumread me for things that aren't AI for me.

DT, are you saying I'm scum or town who plays anti-town? What's your actual read on me?

It's fairly obvious I'm not repeating myself about things unless specifically asked by someone who doesn't understand (e.g. Grapes). I've hardly mentioned or interacted with DT at all, all things considered. I think you're confusing me with DT who actually keeps randomly repeating himself.

[Shoshin]

No one here does not understand that you think DT is Scum by now.

And where do you see me trying to let people know that I scumread DT?

[Shoshin]

You're seeing things that aren't there, then. You're treating me unfairly because of DT's play, not mine. DT talking about me doesn't equate to me talking about him. Don't confuse the two.

[Shoshin]

Why is Vedith scum, EE?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Buj

[Shoshin]

I'm never lynching Jingle.

[Shoshin]

Alignment. From what I've seen in your games recently, you're surprisingly mislynchable.

[Shoshin]

I'm curious to hear your reads, Jingle.

[Shoshin]

I'm one of those.

[Shoshin]

My vote's on Buj.

corrected.

-nsg

[Shoshin]

They think because I saw some townies self-vote that I should townread such behavior.

That isn't what anyone said. The point is that you shouldn't scumread anyone for behavior that you know comes from townies. How many times do I need to say this for it to eventually get through your head?

[Shoshin]

It has adapted to she is claiming self-votes are NAI but townreading people who townread her selfvote and scumreading people who scumread her selfvote. It tells me that the real motivation behind the self-vote was to get townread, not to get a wagon going and get people talking.

I didn't townread/scumread anyone based solely on whether they townread/scumread the self-vote.

[Shoshin]

DT, what's your read on Buj?

[Shoshin]

Why are you scumreading EE, Jingle?

[Shoshin]

I'm strongly opposed to lynching Vedith.

[Shoshin]

Eagle, what's your read on Buj?

[Shoshin]

Eagle, what's your read on Buj?

He looks pretty towny to me.

What looks towny to you?

[Shoshin]

This:

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

What looks towny about Vedith and PvtUrist to you?

Talking theory is towny? Anyone could post this without even reading the game. How do you ever townread this?

I already said why Vedith's town.

I never said Pvt is town. Again, don't put words in my mouth.

[Shoshin]

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

That's circular. You can't use these things as reasons he's scum if you're assuming he's scum to create the reasons int he first place.

[Shoshin]

mcqueen, do you have any other thoughts on the game?

[Shoshin]

Buj says he scumreads me because I'm "assigning reads based on who agrees/disagrees with me about the self-vote" (see 403 & 752). To make this argument, Buj distorts or ignores the vast majority of my reads.

For starters, Buj thinks I scumread EE when I didn't. He thinks I townread Vedith because he agreed with me about the self-vote even though I've already explained that I townread Vedith based on his "progression" from attacking me to defending me. He's ignoring the fact that I scumread Alisae even though Alisae agreed with me about the self-vote. He's ignoring the fact that I townread Grapes even though Grapes disagreed with me about the self-vote. He's ignoring the fact that I townread FA even though she disagreed with me about the self-vote. And he's ignoring the fact that I didn't initially scumread him even though he disagreed with me about the self-vote.

I hold Buj to a much higher standard than this as town, which is why I'm scumreading him now. Buj usually has very good reads as town. He reads carefully. He doesn't get basic facts wrong. If Buj keeps scumreading me after this, we need to lynch him.

[Shoshin]

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

Eagle, why aren't you suspicious of DT for this reasoning?

[Shoshin]

DT, I know you're annoyed that I don't respond to your questions directly. I want you to know that your questions were in fact answered. You asked me multiple times where my "head" was at. I responded by posting in the thread, showing you where it was directed (at the time, not you). I didn't respond to your other questions directly but answers were provided in the thread. I tell you this so that you don't ignore my questions:

What's your read on Buj?

What do you think of Eagle's townread on Buj?

[Shoshin]

I'm not saying his reads are perfect but they're more accurate than people give him credit for and they're definitely more thoughtful than this.

[Shoshin]

Can you explain your scum read on him?

This type of question is why I ignore questions.

[Shoshin]

I admit I misread your read on EE, but all the others came after my vote not before.

And yet you're still voting me... why aren't you reevaluating?

And also why aren't you talking about ignoring DT asking you where your head is at multiple times to your face?

I addressed that already. I ignore questions as town so this isn't scummy for me. And besides, I wasn't actually ignoring DT's question, I just wasn't responding to him directly.

You think I didn't answer because I'm hiding something? That doesn't make sense. His question was too vague for you to say I'm hiding something. And it's not like I wasn't posting, so you can't say I'm nervous scum who's scared to talk. What am I hiding? How does ignoring DT's questions multiple times (not once but multiple times) further my objectives as scum?

[Shoshin]

Why is it weird that I thought I played a game with DT when in fact it turned out I played another game that was far more recent? I don't have perfect recall. Why are you even talking about that? Why is Alisae who claims you can't have single digit page-cases in non single-digit pages not commenting on the fact EE and DT are talking about a single-digit page? The way you talked about that arbitrarily RVS line you draw in your head makes it sound like you consider it a mortal sin.

I assume this isn't directed at me but just in case: I never said it was weird that you played a game with DT. I can't speak to Alisae's intent. And I never said anything about RVS. You might be confusing me with someone else.

[Shoshin]

Buj, why aren't you scumreading EE for ignoring my questions?

[Shoshin]

That's not the question I'm talking about.

[Shoshin]

That's also not why I townread Vedith, which I've already explained multiple times.

[Shoshin]

EE makes up for it with other things.

What things?

DT was ignored and then shaded and scumread. You weren't the only one to do that so I can see why you might thing I'm singling you out but I only have one vote and overall I think I'm happy with the discussions and how the votes are progressing to change anything.

You're changing your story from before. Are you now voting me because I voted for DT? I don't see what's scummy about that. I thought his reaction was over-the-top, and I thought the way he was playing up EE's posting felt very much like he was pocketing a towny while pushing my mislynch. It's fine if you disagree with my feelings but put yourself in my shoes -- imagine you're town with DT reacting the way he did, stoking EE, and aggressively pushing your mislynch -- I find it hard to believe you wouldn't be paranoid of DT in that circumstance.

Again, if you do something as both alignments it doesn't mean I can't scumread you for it.

If I do something as both town/scum, it means it's not AI for me. And if you applied that tell, you might get lucky one game but in most games you'd mislynch me (assuming I'm town more often than scum). If you don't see a problem with that approach to the game, I don't know what to tell you.

If you are claiming that you have never self-voted as scum and you have never ignored questions as scum that's different (please do confirm).

I have never self-voted as scum, nor would I unless playing with people who had seen me do it as town. I don't ignore questions as scum because it unnecessarily alienates players that I want to pocket. Again, the only exception is when the player list knows my town meta to the point where ignoring questions eases their suspicions. Audience matters. There isn't anyone familiar with my meta in this game so I'd never self-vote or ignore questions here as scum.

The last thing is a bit harder to put into words, but it's not really about you hiding something as much as you don't seem interested in treating DT like a neutral read. If you saw that someone is not understanding that you are responding to them subtly, why wouldn't you then explain it to them directly?

I was trying to sort DT by testing his reactions. I also knew that I'd have no problem explaining this to DT later, or with working together if I eventually townread him. You're the only player turning this into a problem for reasons that don't actually make sense.

Shoshin if you're town do you honestly think I'm scummier than the people who townread you when you self-voted before you even explained any reads or motivations behind your actions?

I thought my play was towny prior to the self-vote. I also think the way I self-voted was towny. I understand that you disagree because you think self-voting is anti-town, but please notice that nothing bad actually happened as a result of the self-vote -- sometimes you need to stretch your mind a bit so that you can see the bigger picture of how certain actions actually impact the game in practice, not in theory, and in this case, the self-vote caused no harm while creating a bunch of information.

I know you probably won't believe this because it's self-meta but know this: When I'm scum, I'm usually the most townread player in the game in large part because I don't ignore, I don't create rifts, I don't test reactions, and I don't do anything that could ever be mistakenly perceived as scummy (e.g. self-voting). In contrast, when I'm town, I believe enough in my fellow townies to correctly read me because I know that eventually I'll drop genuine town tells that will overcome whatever perceived scummy shit I did earlier (see e.g. Labyrinth), so I play more on the edge to test reactions, create information, bait the scum, and win games.

[Shoshin]

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

Eagle, why aren't you suspicious of DT for this reasoning?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Eagle

[Shoshin]

EE is Enter?

[Shoshin]

Okay, cool. That helps me read him.

[Shoshin]

What's your read on Buj, Alisae?

[Shoshin]

Let's ignore EE for now. Knowing he's Enter makes me feel a lot better about him flipping town. He's just bad at the game.

[Shoshin]

Your question in 896 was a response to my questions in 881. In 879 (two posts before 881) I explain why I scumread Buj. Why did you skip over 879, DT?

[Shoshin]

There's one short post between 879 through 881:

Spoiler:

Buj says he scumreads me because I'm "assigning reads based on who agrees/disagrees with me about the self-vote" (see 403 & 752). To make this argument, Buj distorts or ignores the vast majority of my reads.

For starters, Buj thinks I scumread EE when I didn't. He thinks I townread Vedith because he agreed with me about the self-vote even though I've already explained that I townread Vedith based on his "progression" from attacking me to defending me. He's ignoring the fact that I scumread Alisae even though Alisae agreed with me about the self-vote. He's ignoring the fact that I townread Grapes even though Grapes disagreed with me about the self-vote. He's ignoring the fact that I townread FA even though she disagreed with me about the self-vote. And he's ignoring the fact that I didn't initially scumread him even though he disagreed with me about the self-vote.

I hold Buj to a much higher standard than this as town, which is why I'm scumreading him now. Buj usually has very good reads as town. He reads carefully. He doesn't get basic facts wrong. If Buj keeps scumreading me after this, we need to lynch him.

Pvt had a neutral stance which often comes from town cuz town doesnt want to make a ruckus

Eagle, why aren't you suspicious of DT for this reasoning?

DT, I know you're annoyed that I don't respond to your questions directly. I want you to know that your questions were in fact answered. You asked me multiple times where my "head" was at. I responded by posting in the thread, showing you where it was directed (at the time, not you). I didn't respond to your other questions directly but answers were provided in the thread. I tell you this so that you don't ignore my questions:

What's your read on Buj?

What do you think of Eagle's townread on Buj?

Yet you skipped entirely over 879 because it didn't mention your name? Why are you looking for posts that mention your name instead of trying to find the scum, DT?

[Shoshin]

you cannot possibly accuse me of 'not finding scums' i have so many mother fucking scum reads bro

I'll rephrase, then. Just because you present scumreads doesn't mean you're scumhunting from an uninformed perspective. In general, if you don't know what alignments people are you tend to read their posts instead of just looking for what people are saying about you. Why are you looking for posts that mention your name while ignoring those that don't?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: DT

[Shoshin]

Comparing self-voting to rape isn't funny.

[Shoshin]

I don't know how to read Clem other than poe at this point. Why is he scum, PR?

[Shoshin]

How did I harm you by self-voting, DT?

[Shoshin]

Who are your partners, Prince?

[Shoshin]

Jingle, huh? Tell me more.

[Shoshin]

I'm sad you're scum, PR.

[Shoshin]

It won't be fun lynching you.

[Shoshin]

I feel very threatened by scum you.

[Shoshin]

How sure are you that DT's town?

[Shoshin]

I shouldn't have called Enter bad. The truth is I thought you were okay prior to this game.

[Shoshin]

I think if Enter knew my alts he'd be treating me differently.

[Shoshin]

Hey PR, I wasn't ever seriously pushing you. I was joking around because you called yourself scum. I thought you knew?

[Shoshin]

that would explain why your push on me felt super super fake

I'm not that bad as scum, you know this.

[Shoshin]

I know who you are Prince. I think your name is making me think you're scum.

[Shoshin]

Can you follow my lynch for today, PR?

[Shoshin]

It depends. Who do you townread?

[Shoshin]

Can you talk to me more about Jingle? I was townreading the slot in large part because I didn't think FA would replace out as scum, and because Jingle's townread on Karmeleon reminded me of some of his townreads from the upick game.

I'm worried now because he's downplaying my play as "newbish" when he knows it's anything but. Like, I know he disagrees with my approach at times (e.g. the bodyguard stuff in Labyrinth) but that doesn't mean it's "newbish," nor can he actually question the results. Plus, my reads were better than his in the upick so it's odd for him to say this.

[Shoshin]

Why not? She's setting up a strange TvS scenario with me that doesn't at all make me take her reads seriously.

[Shoshin]

What's your read on Alisae?

[Shoshin]

If Reiuji was on her main she would have fairly good odds of getting nightkilled before me

But is she town?

[Shoshin]

Reiuji's reads aren't bad except that she isn't townreading me.

[Shoshin]

It's fine if townies don't townread me but I feel like I'm pretty obvtown here to stronger scumhunters.

I'd prefer a lynch on Lycan/Clem over Grapes. I know this is bad of me to say but when Grapes was interacting with me I felt like he was actually giving me a fair shot instead of just pushing my mislynch.

Are you town on Lycan?

[Shoshin]

Your character was boring anyway. This is more fun!

[Shoshin]

The degree to which Grapes followed up on my DT push felt townish, like I feel like scum would have just let it go eventually but he kept pushing for more of an explanation.

[Shoshin]

i also think that someone 'actually giving you a fair shot instead of pushing your mislynch' in the sense that you're talking about is a pretty heavy scum rather than towntell.

For you, yes. For me, no. For most people, not sure.

[Shoshin]

I will say this is a first for me, causing two players in a game to replace out. I'm not sure how to feel about this.

[Shoshin]

Until he flips town, and then what?

[Shoshin]

I don't get it. What'd I do to you, Ali?

[Shoshin]

How'd I create a frustrating environment?

[Shoshin]

This isn't derailing, I'm actually trying to sort you, Alisae. What'd I do to demoralize you in specific?

[Shoshin]

Lycan/Clem/Buj is my solve at the moment. I'm not "really really certain" though. I'll let you know when I am.

[Shoshin]

I just realized my solve is voting me. Total coincidence, not intentional.

[Shoshin]

I am Shoshin. If you really want to know more about how I know you, PM me. I'm not outing my alts right now.

[Shoshin]

i actually seriously considered replacing out the moment she called me scum so make that 4!

I keep coming back to this.

Why would you replace out just because I called you scum?

If you're town, wouldn't you just push my lynch?

This feels fake, PR.

[Shoshin]

So if I ever want you to replace out of my games, I just call you scum?

[Shoshin]

I get that you're sensitive but that feels a bit much even for you.

[Shoshin]

I guess it's possible.

[Shoshin]

Okay, I looked through some of Grapes games. I understand the wagon now.

VOTE: Grapes

[Shoshin]

do you want me to replace out of your games?

No, I just don't believe you would just because I called you scum? Unless you were 100% that I was town. But otherwise you'd just push my lynch, no?

[Shoshin]

Okay, I believe you.

[Shoshin]

So there’s scum in {PR, Alisae, and Rei} ? Scum team found already ?

this is a pretty awful post

What do you mean awful?
That has to be the most amazing post I've seen in this last few pages.

This made me actually lol.

[Shoshin]

i really hope you're town shoshin

I dunno if this will help you feel better but I really wouldn't risk a self-vote if I were scum because I've never done it before, and especially coming into this player list where I don't know anyone, there's no way I play scum the way I'm currently playing. I know it's self-meta or whatever but this is truth.

[Shoshin]

Why is Buj town to you, Reiuji?

[Shoshin]

I think Reiuji's too quick to townread Lycan. I really don't get that at all.

I also find it odd that Xtox has moved up in towniness instead of down since that's what I've been feeling lately about his disappearance from the game.

[Shoshin]

She's setting up a strange TvS scenario with me

It is actually because the back-and-forth looked too one-sided when happened.

I'd say in general TvT scenario, it would be pretty evenly matched argument with frustration built on both sides, because they are both town and they think they are right (which they are not).

I do like this explanation though so I guess Reiuji's town. Just annoying because she doesn't townread me.

[Shoshin]

I dunno, Gamma, Clem, or Lycan, maybe Dann, maybe Buj?

[Shoshin]

I'm never lynching.

[Shoshin]

It feels like the scum have given up already.

[Shoshin]

Ephraim

Where'd this come from?

[Shoshin]

Oh, PR.

[Shoshin]

I agree that Buj isn't scum.

[Shoshin]

I don't think Lycan's hammer clears him.

[Shoshin]

I think that would be very bad for the game.

[Shoshin]

Clemency is probably town.
Lycan is probably town.

Why are these town?

[Shoshin]

What's your read on Dann?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Lycan

[Shoshin]

I don't want EE lynched today.

[Shoshin]

Why are you townreading Lycan, EE?

[Shoshin]

I don't think the quickhammer was particularly scummy.

I liked his posts earlier in the day.

I want more detail than this.

[Shoshin]

shoshin if we gave you complete control over the next two lynches who would they be?

I'll get back to you on this.

[Shoshin]

Reiuji, what's your read on Lycan?

[Shoshin]

Can you help me understand that?

[Shoshin]

I see I have my work cut out for me this game.

[Shoshin]

Also, that lolhammer is 95% town, so.

[Shoshin]

Grapes was obviously going down. Any remotely competent scum hammers before a townie has a chance because 95% of the time (your prediction) it gets townread.

[Shoshin]

Why are you voting me, Jingle?

[Shoshin]

My reads haven't changed much from yesterday. I'm not lynching Vedith, DDL, or EE today unless it's me or them.

Lycan or Clem gives us the best shot of hitting scum. Gamma's still plausible scum. Xtox needs to be reevaluated given the extent of his lurking.

PR needs to be lynched if still alive at LYLO, especially if he continues to push mislynches.

[Shoshin]

I have nothing to say. PR has convinced me that I'm probably scum even though I'm town.

[Shoshin]

I hope that you follow through on my reads after I'm dead.

[Shoshin]

Okay, a response to PR's "case":

Spoiler:

the moment that I called grapes scum, Shoshin tries to appeal to my respect for her to get me to sheep her. no specific intended target except that it's

not

grapes.

I admit this looks bad. The reason I was appealing to PR is because he often leads mislynches in my games when my preferred lynches are on scum. Grapes wasn't on my radar at this point.

It's fine if townies don't townread me but I feel like I'm pretty obvtown here to stronger scumhunters.

I'd prefer a lynch on Lycan/Clem over Grapes. I know this is bad of me to say but when Grapes was interacting with me I felt like he was actually giving me a fair shot instead of just pushing my mislynch.

Are you town on Lycan?

continues to vaguely call grapes town but isn't willing to fully commit to it. and Shoshin has an immense amount of weight behind her townreads. see any of her games. but she's not willing to hard push this one.

PR's right that I'll go to extreme lengths to defend strong townreads. Grapes wasn't a townread. He was in that spot where I'm okay letting his lynch happen but prefer others, and that's nothing out of the ordinary for me. It's not scummy to let a lynch happen on scum while expressing preference for others who turn out to be scum as well -- it's something that happens sometimes.

I will say this is a first for me, causing two players in a game to replace out. I'm not sure how to feel about this.

Lycan/Clem/Buj is my solve at the moment. I'm not "really really certain" though. I'll let you know when I am.

i actually seriously considered replacing out the moment she called me scum so make that 4!

I keep coming back to this.

Why would you replace out just because I called you scum?

If you're town, wouldn't you just push my lynch?

This feels fake, PR.

I can't detail this but Shoshin 100% knows that this is a fact. yet she tries to call me scum for it while I'm pushing grapes.

I didn't know this until this game.

So if I ever want you to replace out of my games, I just call you scum?

I get that you're sensitive but that feels a bit much even for you.

Okay, I looked through some of Grapes games. I understand the wagon now.

VOTE: Grapes

you can scumread grapes on meta but grapes was obvscum based on the contents of this game and this game alone. town shoshin wouldn't have needed that.
also worth noting that once the momentum gets the point where it's pretty obviously happening she goes from trying to appeal to me to vote lyc or clem to oh yeah sure grapes seems scum.

I wasn't seeing obvscum Grapes until I checked his meta. PR might have thought it was obvious but he's informed about Grapes' meta in ways that I wasn't so I don't think PR has an unbiased perspective on this.

I admit the timing on my vote seems opportunistic if you assume Lycan/Clem are town. I also think it's unfair to read this as bussing when I easily could have directed the lynch elsewhere at this point. The Grapes wagon wasn't anything close to as solid as PR says & PR easily would have changed directions with a bit of insistence on my part.

footnote: shoshin has far too large of an ego to follow me. she respects my play but in any individual situation she would always put her reads first. this her trying to be a good townie, this isn't who she actually is.

I believed in the Grapes lynch after reading his games. There's a remarkable difference between his town games and his play in this game.

oh and she can fuck right off with that lynch me at lylo thing. she's made a point many times of saying that she would never try to use that kind of rationale regarding me. she claims that she can read me
in fact she has proven that she can read me over a succession of games. the one game where I was scum she told irrelephant to lynch me. she hasn't read me as scum when i was town.
and yet in this game where i've spewed myself town to death she's hiding behind a paranoia read instead of solving me.

claiming to be good as town comes with perks as well as penalties and her saying that i'm scum here is in and of itself enough reason to lynch her. end story.

This is fair. I made the comment out of frustration for reasons.

i immediately felt something off with her play when i replaced in and voted her. i overthought it and unvoted. i gotta trust those feelings.

PR feels something off about me in every game he's ever been in with me. I've always been town.

she only actively tries to work with me when she's scum

This is untrue. PR's never played against scum me. I urge anyone voting me to check the meta for themselves.

[Shoshin]

I knew who PR was after about two posts from them.

[Shoshin]

Lycan seems overly angry. Why are people townreading this?

[Shoshin]

I am scumhunting, Jingle

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Clemency

[Shoshin]

It would be nice if someone helped me pressure the lurkers into contributing. Clem, Xtox, and Gamma need to say things. And yes, Xtox is probably town because of Grapes but that doesn't excuse his behavior.

[Shoshin]

she only actively tries to work with me when she's scum

Why'd you say this?

[Shoshin]

I'm pretty sure Xtox townreads me because he's actually played with scum me. The only person in this game to do so.

[Shoshin]

That's a lie.

[Shoshin]

That's another lie. You know we didn't play off-site.

[Shoshin]

You've already convinced me I'm scum with a town PM, PR. It happens.

The way to win these situations is leaving me alive until LYLO. Experience in your games shows it usually leads to town wins.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin are you mislynched as town?

I've been mislynched twice.

The first time, I was mislynched because of a faulty guilty result in a normal game.

The second time, I was mislynched at LYLO because of a troll who decided to vote me instead of obvscum NSG.

That said, I'm regularly scumread in my games. The scum usually try mislynching me because they think I'm an easy mislynch. Townies often think I'm scum as well. I'm very good at staying alive despite being scumread for days on end.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, can you link a scum game or two?

I have two scum games:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=76221

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970

I also have a 0% win rate as scum. I'm not good scum.

[Shoshin]

also varsoon power mislynched you in sc2
that was hilarious
and that nightless game

I didn't play Starcraft 2, that was the worst. I made a few early posts in that game but then my internet died so I wasn't around.

[Shoshin]

I used to think I was good scum too, Xtox.

[Shoshin]

I started rethinking the strength of my scum play when I realized I wasn't winning my scum games. I'm very good at getting townread as scum. I was the most townread player in Starcarft. But that's just one skill and it's not enough to win as scum. I learned from RC that it doesn't matter if people townread/scumread you, what matters is impacting the game in meaningful ways that win the game for your team.