Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[NerfedBuJ]

Hello

I've never played with most of you.

VOTE: Alisae
First person on the list I haven't played with.

[NerfedBuJ]

1. Comfortable as town. Nervous as scum

2. Good at: Game solving.
Bad at: Conforming to other peoples' expectations and not getting stressed out by not getting people to see my POV.

3. Scum hunting as town, messing with associatives as scum.

4. The site should not tolerate anti-town behavior, troll accounts also should not be allowed.

5. I have very limited experience with lycanfire, shoshin, DT, Clemency, DrD, vedith, mcqueen. I know Gamma a bit more. I'm excited because this game will decide if I want to continue playing forum mafia or end up just modding/spectating. I come here to relax. I failed at doing that while playing normally for 30 or so games so now I'm trying a different playstyle.

[NerfedBuJ]

Things are done for a reason thats how we get out of RVS. We only take about what happens on these pages on these pages. These pages are actually very insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things. You aren't going to be refer to be basing things on page 1 to get a read on someone on page 50 or higher or whatever. You're just not.

however, if you're really looking forward to the game and you rand villager, its likely that your behavoir makes sense, so it comes out as awkward and trying to force a start of the game when simply put one doesn't exist. Because you're trying to force the game to start quicker, it looks awkward, therefore this interaction happens.

So ur probably just town tbh but I'll re-evaluate tomorrow just to be sure

Do you not think that town and scum post differently in RVS?

And if they do, can't we use this to build cases?

I agree that it becomes less and less important as the game goes on, but a lot of times one or more scum can be caught in RVS alone.

[NerfedBuJ]

@DT - I thought there was some old game but it looks like our only game together is Jingle's Townsquare.

[NerfedBuJ]

Things are done for a reason thats how we get out of RVS. We only take about what happens on these pages on these pages. These pages are actually very insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things. You aren't going to be refer to be basing things on page 1 to get a read on someone on page 50 or higher or whatever. You're just not.

however, if you're really looking forward to the game and you rand villager, its likely that your behavoir makes sense, so it comes out as awkward and trying to force a start of the game when simply put one doesn't exist. Because you're trying to force the game to start quicker, it looks awkward, therefore this interaction happens.

So ur probably just town tbh but I'll re-evaluate tomorrow just to be sure

Do you not think that town and scum post differently in RVS?

And if they do, can't we use this to build cases?

I agree that it becomes less and less important as the game goes on, but a lot of times one or more scum can be caught in RVS alone.

no and if u use it to build cases and those cases aren’t on a single digit page your case is shit.
If your posting a case on a single digit page then thats a red flag in of itself

—

That's a narrow-minded view imo.

What can you tell me about Eagle? You seem to know each other well. Is the tryharding AI for him?

VOTE: shoshin

[NerfedBuJ]

Okay I didn't know shoshin was the purple avatar I thought she hadn't posted yet

DT why shoshin

Pedit - lol

[NerfedBuJ]

@DT - ftr I don't need an answer anymore after this page and reading your ISO

[NerfedBuJ]

Why would you want to consolidate votes on yourself?

[NerfedBuJ]

Game just finished so I can post it
Please read this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=78729

To see why anti-town behavior is counter-productive.

I am sure this is just one example out of hundreds of games. It certainly wasn't my first experience with it.

I am playing on this account so you'll excuse me if I don't get into a debate I've had too many times. Just posting a very recent and specifically relevant perspective as this us just a larger version of that game.

And yes town did win. But it wasn't because town self-voted. We won LUCKILY

despite

the self-votes.

[NerfedBuJ]

@shoshin - I'm voting you primarily because you're assigning reads based on who agrees with you or doesn't on the self-vote thing which is a bad way of sortint.
You scumread DT and EE while I townread them. Plus DT scumread you before the self vote because you didn't respond to him/her. Self-voting is not scumhunting. Town need to be scumhunting.

And yes two people I scumread and voted for self-voted. I'm supposed to townread that because sometimes townies do it? They sped up their own lynches and cut the days short. Playing against their win con.

@vedith - they made the game unnecessarily harder by contributing to their own quickhammer.

[NerfedBuJ]

I think DT is town because I liked his/her comment to Reiuji, his/her pushing of Eagle to clarify, and his/her pushing of Shoshin to respond.

I also think people are mistaken in evaluating the overreaction. I think it is much more likely to come from town.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also shoshin, 3 things I should clarify from my perspective

1. NAI does not equal 'both town and scum do it'. Both scum and town do it means there is sometimes town motivation and there is sometimes scum motivation. That you can analyze. NAI are things that are entirely independent from alignment, such as being busy in real life, not reading a role PM, being bad at math etc.

2. Some actions are inherently anti-town. I don't care that some player in some niche scenario was once able to get something good out of it. The reality is an anti-town action is just bad for town 99% of the time, and in that 1% rare chance, I guarantee that there are alternative ways to achieve the same thing.

3. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

Pedit - fine by me.. I'll stick to only the first 3 reasons for townreading DT just as long as everyone else also doesn't scumread the AtE

[NerfedBuJ]

AtE is always NAI. Always.

But for the record.. no it is not.

'AtE is used by both town and scum depending on the situation' is correct.

'AtE is NAI' is incorrect.

We can argue that in both cases AtE tries to get people to do what the emotional person wants, but town and scum want different things so you know, you can actually read into the AtE.

[NerfedBuJ]

i looked at buj's iso and i dont see it
but uh
if you need help lmk

They think because I saw some townies self-vote that I should townread such behavior.

Which doesn't make sense because a) my personality and mafia beliefs, b) I didn't even scumread shoshin for the self vote, c) the same people voting me are calling self-votes NAI but they want me to townread it.

Can't have it both ways hypocrites.


And @Alisae the overreaction is dumb as scum, but it's also not going to help lynch shoshin. I think scum do dumb things if they think it will achieve something.

DT had a scumcase on shoshin, and then the self-vote happens and DT raged on that. If you are scum you don't ruin your more logical fake scumcase in exchange for a more emotional case while also grabbing everyone's attention to yourself.

Basically I think Eagle and DT shot their shoshin push in the foot by uttering the taboo word 'policy lynch', which we all know the site meta is against. Which is a shame because shoshin is scummy with or without the self vote, and because they're absolutely right about anti-town behavior.

[NerfedBuJ]

And saying that, vedith absolutely saved the other fire game I linked by correctly townreading me in a situation where I had bad reads. That required a deep analysis of my character, the game-state, and the intent behind my posts.

To come here and see him vote me because I don't let a self-vote change my read on someone I was voting shows a complete lack of the awareness the vedith I described above had.

[NerfedBuJ]

. If someone does something scummy and ends up flipping town it is not my responsibility to townread such behavior in the future. It is their responsibility to not repeat it.

[NerfedBuJ]

on someone I was voting

Can you explain what the Scum read was when you voted? Reasons and such.
And can you explain the Scum read now and if it's adapted?

And lastly who else catches you're eye as Scum? You think I'm just mis reading you (correct me if I read wrong) so why would you consider me town here over Scum?

Im going to bed but we can pick up again tomorrow.

Who said I'm townreading you?
That post was me saying this isn't town!vedith.

And scumcase on shoshin was because she ignored DT's attempts at engaging her directly. Like she got something to hide.

It has adapted to she is claiming self-votes are NAI but townreading people who townread her selfvote and scumreading people who scumread her selfvote. It tells me that the real motivation behind the self-vote was to get townread, not to get a wagon going and get people talking (though I don't agree that a townie should selfvote for this reason)

[NerfedBuJ]

I don't get the relevance?

You seem to think I should be inclined to townread self-votes because of recent events. Why would that ever be the case?

[NerfedBuJ]

You seem to think I should be inclined to townread self-votes because of recent events. Why would that ever be the case?

No, not at all. Anyone who plays with me knows that I believe AtE is NAI and self voting is a form of AtE.

You used the argument from that game concerning self voting and tried to compare a day 3 self vote to a day 1 self vote that in theory doesn't directly cause the lynch.
You said about the 2 players self voting were town, so in that mentality alone you should be thinking that it's a townier thing to do, by the information you arguing with and the results of your argument.

I still don't know what you want me from me.
I think what they did in that game helped scum.
I don't know why it should make me change my views.

[NerfedBuJ]

They think because I saw some townies self-vote that I should townread such behavior.

That isn't what anyone said. The point is that you shouldn't scumread anyone for behavior that you know comes from townies. How many times do I need to say this for it to eventually get through your head?

Well then they aren't reading because that wasn't what I scumread you for.

I only put in my two cents about self-votes because I just saw it happen in that game and it led to shitty results.

[NerfedBuJ]

And scumcase on shoshin was because she ignored DT's attempts at engaging her directly. Like she got something to hide.

Pics? I wanna see the quality of your Kool-Aid before joining any cults.

Trick is to wait until one week after the expiry date.

You seem less serious here than you were in overkill 1.
Would you agree with that and if so is there a reason for it?

[NerfedBuJ]

Jingle would your read on vedith change if he were someone else?

In other words how much of your read is based on his character?

[NerfedBuJ]

I actually think on a whole I'm more serious, or did you forget about the 1/3 of my ISO that was discussing comic book deities, my claim to be Queen Latifah, and repeatedly insisting that I was a specific character despite having no way of confirming that information?

The difference, however can be attributed to the fact that this is an open where that was a closed, the comparable weakness of my reads, and the playerbase. I approach different people in different ways, and this game has none of {Thor, Nancy, EJ, Cerbs} all of whom have specific strategies attached to reading/manipulating them.

Tbh yeah I did forget that. Your ISO as a whole I would classify as very serious. You spent a whole lot of time trying to figure stuff out. You unironically counted every occurence of the word 'but' in my ISO because you thought it was scum-indicative. That's some serious shit.
I'm guessing being a mason probably made you more relaxed to joke around more so maybe this wasn't a great question to ask.

[NerfedBuJ]

Approximately 0%. I have a better read on your personality than Vedith's. The read is nonplayer specific.

Yeah that's just disappointing for two reasons.

1. I was hoping for some insight into vedith. As far as I can recall I've only read him correctly once and that's because he hardclaimed the only PR role in the game.

2. From what I do know about you, it baffles me that you specifically are not seeing that Eagles' point about vedith giving himself outs by not committing to a solid read is objectively sound, regardless of either player's alignment.
Vedith could be doing it as town, and Eagle could be pointing it out as scum, but hypothetically there could be scum motivation and there could be town motivation for vedith taking neutral stances, so rejecting the existence of the scum motivation in it is naive at best.


Pedit - everytime I try to post you guys are adding more

[NerfedBuJ]

Post 1 is a stance I'd take for town cred. I don't want to fully town read her unless the push on her becomes nice and easy later, but I want to look like I'm trying to offer my opinion and work with town. Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Post 2 is against the grain and everyone thinks oh wow someone going against the grain that guy must be town. hrs not saying why he thinks she's town, he's saying why he think the other persons argument that she is scum is bad. This leaves him an opening to still push her as scum without contradicting himself if the opportunity arises.

This is what I was referring to.

[NerfedBuJ]

@shoshin - I admit I misread your read on EE, but all the others came after my vote not before. And also why aren't you talking about ignoring DT asking you where your head is at multiple times to your face? The way people focusing on just one argument against you which is the overreaction to your vote is false.

And let's not comment on my read accuract until after the game when we actually would know the results. Say I am wrong about you. That's just one read so far that only you and scum can verify.

Why is it weird that I thought I played a game with DT when in fact it turned out I played another game that was far more recent? I don't have perfect recall. Why are you even talking about that? Why is Alisae who claims you can't have single digit page-cases in non single-digit pages not commenting on the fact EE and DT are talking about a single-digit page? The way you talked about that arbitrarily RVS line you draw in your head makes it sound like you consider it a mortal sin.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also if you want to lynch me because this is a new account with no previous meta that's fair enough but I'm deliberately being less me than I usually am because being me leads to too much stress and too much time spent on here.

Pedit - RVS is a brilliant scumhunting ground no matter what Alisae thinks. I'm just using Alisae's personal opinion to judge Alisae on because it would be unfair to treat her like anyone other than her.
But personay a lot of my correct scumreads have been gathered in RVS or at the very least it gives me a scum pool to further analyze. Ask shoshin who's applying a BoP argument on me as we speak

[NerfedBuJ]

I am reevaluating. That doesn't mean I have to change my mind, nor does it mean I have to change my mind right now.

Correct, that part was not directed at you.

EE makes up for it with other things.

DT was ignored and then shaded and scumread. You weren't the only one to do that so I can see why you might thing I'm singling you out but I only have one vote and overall I think I'm happy with the discussions and how the votes are progressing to change anything.

Again, if you do something as both alignments it doesn't mean I can't scumread you for it. By definition sometimes you do it as scum so there's potential for me to scumread your intent and be right about it. If you are claiming that you have never self-voted as scum and you have never ignored questions as scum that's different (please do confirm). Technically there's a first time for everything but at least in that case if you did do it for the first time as scum then it means you can't ever use this argument again which overall makes your play and everyone else's better in the future, which would even be worth losing to you for imo, not that I think letting scum!you live now automatically means town loses. I'm fully aware I can change my read if I start townreading you and then also change it later if future evidence makes me scumread you again.

The last thing is a bit harder to put into words, but it's not really about you hiding something as much as you don't seem interested in treating DT like a neutral read. If you saw that someone is not understanding that you are responding to them subtly, why wouldn't you then explain it to them directly?

[NerfedBuJ]

Shoshin if you're town do you honestly think I'm scummier than the people who townread you when you self-voted before you even explained any reads or motivations behind your actions?

[NerfedBuJ]

Okay shoshin I will be ignoring some of the things you say from now on but it is not personal and it has nothing to do with my alignment or yours. I just made a promise to myself.

And EE is town because he has been a core reason for this game progressing as far as it did and for everyone to have enough content to form reads.

He's not the only one by any means but if there was a quantitative way of measuring this he'd come out on top this game. That's why I'm not yet concerned about anything he did that could be scummy.

And if you think you were ever in danger of being lynched I think you're understimating the effect of site meta on how games go. I just don't know where to move my vote to yet and I'm not convinced you're town yet.

[NerfedBuJ]

Basically I think even though they had good intentions, EE and DT used the word PL and destroyed your wagon before it had a chance to start. But discussion wise thise whole game was and is moving in a positive direction

Pedit - now I need to clarify that I'm still talking to shoshin

[NerfedBuJ]

I didn't want a wagon on Shoshin. I wasn't trying to lynch her, and I wasn't sold on her as scum. I wanted to go through how bad of a play it is to self-vote and make it enough hell that we don't have to deal with it again

Then I misinterpretted your actions.

But words don't work to convince people to stop doing anti-town things. I have tried and many have tried before me.

If you think something is anti-town and you really want to stop it you have to go all in and lynch the behavior until it becomes extinct.

It's just that sort of thing will cost games in the short term and people aren't willing to sacrifice the short-term for the long-term.

The only other way I can think of is to have admins and mods enforce it.

[NerfedBuJ]

Can people please read and understand posts before they comment on them?

There's no shame in asking for clarification.

Also I'm sorry but if prince did what he did as scum it would be horribly immoral so he's conftown now.

[NerfedBuJ]

Can people please read and understand posts before they comment on them?

There's no shame in asking for clarification.

Also I'm sorry but if prince did what he did as scum it would be horribly immoral so he's conftown now.

don't agree with this reason to townread me. if I were scum I would have been equally as hurt by the rape comment.
I don't appreciate the implication that there was anything AI in my actions even if it leads you to a correct townread on me.

Yes you would be because you misunderstanding his post is not AI.

But you wouldn't scumread him for it because you would know he is town.

And you wouldn't use it as a reason to bus your partner. You would probably just replace out in that scenario


I don't like using out of game reasons to read people but it is what it is.

[NerfedBuJ]

My logic was called dum so let me explain but I'll be using a stealing analogy.

Say that X is a player in this game who has had his car stolen.

Player Y uses an analogy involving car theft to make a point.

Player X gets offended and votes player Y.

If player X is scum and player Y is town, then using the real life victimness as a tool to rally votes on Y makes X a huge asshole.

If player X is scum and player Y is scum, then getting offended by a partner would not translate to an immediate vote because it's game throwing, and more importantly player Y would not feel the need to apologize and replace out because his partner got offended and voted him. Regardless of whether you agree or not, I think it's pretty obvious that wasn't SvS.

Therefore since scum!X would not vote for Y regardless of Y's alignment, unless X is a huge asshole, and I don't think anyone is that big of an asshole, Prince must be town.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also shoshin was like really obvious scum last time I saw her playing scum so not having everybody convinced of her scumminess is disconcerning.

Alisae if you're town could you replace out please? We already have at least 2 known lurkers. A few trolly accounts. If you can't put your soul into the game just leave it. There's no good reason to stay.

[NerfedBuJ]

Disconcerning can't be right.. why did I use that word.

I think vedith doesn't deserve townreads yet. He can obvtown and hasn't posted enough yet to do that so y'all want to explain the tow reads?

I think clemency can be scum here but part of me really wants to lynch clem and for him to flip scum for personal reasons, so I don't trust my read right now.

[NerfedBuJ]

I'm kinda surprised Jingle voted for gamma, I feel like she'd know it's way too early to do that for gamma who's always overloaded and has been like .. efforting so little in town games recently.

[NerfedBuJ]

This happens like every game feels like; starting to wonder if it's me. :p
Anyway I rushed a little bit but I'm pretty up to speed now.

Jingle at least trying to dig that far into eagle's vedith tunnel isn't something you see from scum too much[glad he did because it really brought to light how contrived it turned out to be in spots like; nitpick the read. Why are you holding vedith of all people to this impossibly high standard where everything they're doing needs to be 100% telegraphed?

eagles also the worst vote on my wagon ; runner up is ali



Rei is town.
Prince is town.
shoshin... meh? gotta be honest this read is up and down every other page feels like and id almost flip it for that reason alone
VOTE: eagle

Obvious townreads... check
Vote the towniest player who's a bit controversial for playstyle reasons ... check
Keep a nullread on the most controversial and talked about player in the game... check

VOTE: grapes

[NerfedBuJ]

yeah i read that part. So you have X = DT/Ephraim. Y = Shoshin. I agree that it's not S v S. Although I don't see the logic here why its not S v T. scum!DT is frustrated by Shoshin scum reading him for garbage reasoning and makes the unsavory comparison.

Nope. X is prince. Y is DT.

If DT wanted to replace out because of shoshin he/she would have done it earlier. He/she replaced out because of feeling bad about Prince.

The whole thing is about Prince being conftown now. It doesn't tell us about any other player.

[NerfedBuJ]

DDL: RE: Buj.

Are you saying those posts are a reason to scumread Buj, or that they're not a reason to townread Buj? Additionally, why those four posts?

Dann said he read the first 10 pages of the game so far and had a townread on me.

DDL is saying that the only posts I had in those 10 pages are not AI so he doesn't know why Dann is townreading them.

He's not wrong.

[NerfedBuJ]

Probably scum trying to pocket me.

Like "hey buddy, I know I lynched you when you were scum last game, but I can townread you correctly too"

[NerfedBuJ]

I don't know If I agree completely but there's enough shady people in that list for it to be a good starting point.
There's a lot of people in your town PoE pool, and I don't know why you changed your mind on the non-voters. High chance of last scum within them imo.

VOTE: Alisae

[NerfedBuJ]

I'm voting alisae because I believe her emotions / not getting into the game thing is genuine.

If it is genuine there are only two reasons for such extreme dispassion.
Either a real life thing or having lurkscum partners. Grapes being one of the scum would support the latter.

If real life why wouldn't she rep-out.

Also her reads don't align with mine at all. Should have lead with that.

[NerfedBuJ]

Dann's post TRing me was strange and scummy, but I admit I'm having a hard time believing he's scum when his other posts seem townie enough and even more importantly, he replaced DT, a townie slot.

[NerfedBuJ]

I would lynch like .. 7 people before lynching lycan. So to answer your question shoshin he's town by default.

I don't like it but I think D2 indicates town for shoshin. It feels like she's was pushed by 1-2 townies and the rest of the votes are passive sheeping, within which scum can and I suspect DID easily hide.

I don't agree that we should waste effort on the lurker spots today. They are likely to be replaced, and if not, pressure voting, or lurker wagons in general are better done at the start of the day, not when we have several rather important counterwagons causing a divide among town. You want lynches that contribute to town cohesion, not split town up further. So again you continue to play anti-town.

Alisae I will never be able to townread if she's alive in lylo, I'll be honest. Just haven't felt that anything she's done reflects how a townie should act if her claimed emotions are genuine.

Also shoshin despite my current townread (which let's face it is based on other people not her actions independently), I wouldn't want her in lylo either because frankly I won't allow game-throwing behavior to endgame. So should be PL'd before then..

Vedith is probably scum.

Gamma I don't think would forget a scum game. I know he's always overloaded but I think it's much harder to forget a scum game.

Jingle I can't tell. I felt FA was townie, but I don't know FA so I can't evaluate the meta case(s) on her. If I had only one guess left I'd call her town.

Not impressive but that's where I'm at.

And let's not continue posting lynchable lists. It helps scum decide who to prime. Post just a few scumreads at a time.

[NerfedBuJ]

I'm pretty sure Xtox townreads me because he's actually played with scum me. The only person in this game to do so.

I don't think I've played with town!you actually.

But even if I have, the game I do remember you were scum in it, so I for sure have played against scum!you.

Unless you mean scum partners?

[NerfedBuJ]

Alisae I will never be able to townread if she's alive in lylo, I'll be honest. Just haven't felt that anything she's done reflects how a townie should act if her claimed emotions are genuine.

honestly
I just don't think you've seen anyone go from engaged to dissengaged and then to engaged.

Of course I have.
It's that I don't buy that your original disengagement is real. Or if it is it comes from scum with shitty partners.

You're welcome to prove me wrong and start scumhunting for real. I am capable of changing my mind. But so far the best thing you've done has been to present a case that in its essence is a meta read on a friend. I would expect that in early day 1, like right after the replacement maybe, not 80 pages in, when the slot's replacement has posted a lot, when we've already lynched scum. And to be fair if FA is as close to you as you say wouldn't she specifically use this knowledge to try to fool you as scum?

In your heart of hearts do you honestly think you've posted enough to be townread? It's my first game with you and that's an expected hurdle but having people not comment on how easily you've been townread by at least 2 people is bugging me the hell out. Even if I'm wrong I just can't see how a townie can put you in the never lynch pile already.

Half the reason why I get suspected in all my games is that I hunt through scum pools and then transition to direct reads. People always interpret that as setting up mislynches because of their narrow pov of how to win town games.

[NerfedBuJ]

But I don't think my scum play it self can be called good until I start winning games.

yeah, this is the correct position on 0% so i respect that
you can always do better but arso is like a super diffucult role to win with the bar is that much higher
main thing holding you back tbh is that you keep rolling town

What are you talking about.. Arso is easier to win as scum.. that's why the Town:Scum ratio is higher than a regular game.

[NerfedBuJ]

I mean you didn't answer my question (I'm asking if you would townread you), but sure let's do that.

Rei and Prince and EE why are you townreading Ali?

That's the ones I remember. Maybe Jingle too.

Anyone else why are you townreading Ali?

[NerfedBuJ]

Like you realize they disrespect both your town game and your scum game by doing it and reduce the bar on every town player from this point forth.

Do nothing, say you're disengaged, get a free townread.

Because THAT'S when they townread you. Your case on FA didn't change anyone's read on you as far as I can tell. At least they see that post as NAI, so I guess I should be happy about that.

[NerfedBuJ]

I only reached page 82 but I can't help myself gotta say a few things.

Shoshin trying so hard to townread vedith is laughable. Just scumread or nullread him like he deserves. You're making shit excuses for him to act like he's acting. Vedith was MVP in our forest fire open that just ended. He's absolutely useless here.

Also shoshin your problem is you're bad at town, no offence. If what you say about yourself is true then that is the only logical explanation. Part of being town is getting town to townread you. If you are claiming that you get scumread because you imitate your town game so much as scum that people think you're scum when you're town, that doesn't make you bad scum, that makes you bad town. Also two scum games is nothing. I have won only 3 scum games on here and I wouldn't even consider any of them normal games so I got lucky.
1) who your partner(s) are matters a whole lot.
2) I've been called good at scum several times by several different people. They're way off. People are shit at evaluating other people's skill level okay, so don't listen to them. Honestly the average person is shit at evaluating their own skill level anyway so no wonder they can't evaluate others.


Also the game is won by finding and lynching ALL scum. If a mislynch helps you do that better, you absolutely should mislynch. I don't give a fuck if I get 2 out of 3 scum correctly on days 1 and 2 if the last scum is gonna deepwolf and pocket me. Tactically choosing who to lynch and when is just as important as having good reads, because guess what we're human and we're not always going to have good reads, so you need a way of helping you correct your reads when you're having a bad game/when the game is difficult to sort. That's when you sometimes have to prioritize lynching someone based on how bad it would be if someone else flipped town, not based on how good it would be if they were scum, if that makes sense. This is especially true in a game where all scum are equal in terms of role.

Also you guys are dicks for outing PR's main. I'm pretty sure he said he wanted it a secret, or did I imagine that? I for one didn't know who he was.

@Dann - why are you being so nice to people this game? Where is your no-nonsense scum hunting attitude? Shoshin should replace out.. good bloody riddance. They're playing against their win condition regardless of their alignment. She's playing especially badly if she's town. If she doesn't want to play she should replace out it's a win-win for her and us. I don't get why people treat people who say they will replace out like they're some fragile creature. We'll all be friends again after the game, right now I don't want the players in the game taking up space. If it's not fun for you replace out. It's why I made an alt. Game stopped being fun for me playing the way I did as BuJaber so now I'm playing differently. It is YOUR responsibility to have fun, not the responsibility of other players in the game. It is YOUR responsibility to contribute to your team's win condition, not their responsibility to push you to play better.

At least 4 people have expressed feeling demotivated by shoshin's play this game. Why are shoshin's feelings more important than 4+ people?

[NerfedBuJ]

I have won only 3 scum games on here and I wouldn't even consider any of them normal games so I got lucky.

no one gives a fuck about your personal experiences and I highly doubt shoshin cares either.

I think I was trying to make her feel better I just worded that weirdly. So yeah I think she would care. Even if she doesn't care she needs to have a dose of reality that a lot of people have a shitty win record as scum. She's not singled out

[NerfedBuJ]

@Jingle - why is Mcqueen in your townbloc, and why is xtox not in your townbloc?

Also I disagree about Ali but everyone knows that.

Again, everyone who townreads Alisae, why are you townreading Alisae?

@Alisae - I would say you don't have enough experience with vedith then, but you probably have more than I do and just haven't changed your first impressions. He's not always a lurksack. I have eyes I've seen him actually post content before.

[NerfedBuJ]

oh btw
I actually do read some posts
so I can form reads

{Prince, Prince, Prince}
{Touhou Alt, Racecar, Bird Brain, did you know you can save up to 15% on car insurance with Gieko, That one guy who is dissapointed with Vedith's play and is just starting to realize that he does nothing}
{xatnlkc]=iom whatever the fuck ur name is, Person with the weird Doctor Who avatar, DoctorDoNothing}
{Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah the lamb}
{I want to townread this useless thing but apparently he's scum?}
{The useless lurker who provides no content, the one that said is this game all shitposting implying that he he doesn't know that mafia is only shitposting}
{Jingle no bells Santa isn't real, This guy who thinks he's going to get interactive gameplay in the NO interactive gameplay zone}

Can you rename the people here? I don't know who you mean for ~5 of those

[NerfedBuJ]

Votecount 1.10

NerfedBuJ(4)

~ Vedith(75), DrDolittle(26),

grapes(16)

, Shoshin(84)

Fixed

Votecount 1.FINAL

grapes(9)

~ Reiuji Utsuho⁽⁷³⁾, Extrapolated Eagle⁽²³³⁾, Prince of Renais⁽¹³⁵⁾, Jingle⁽¹⁶⁵⁾, Alisae⁽¹⁴⁵⁾, Shoshin⁽¹⁶⁵⁾, NerfedBuJ⁽⁴³⁾, Clemency⁽¹³⁾, Lycanfire⁽²⁵⁾

-- HAMMER

NerfedBuJ(2)

~ Vedith⁽⁹⁰⁾, DrDolittle⁽⁴⁷⁾

Reiuji Utsuho(1)

~ mcqueen⁽²²⁾

Prince of Renais(1)

~ Xtoxm⁽²¹⁾

Extrapolated Eagle(1)

~ grapes⁽²¹⁾


Not Voting (3): Gamma Emerald⁽¹⁸⁾, Dannflor⁽¹⁵⁵⁾, Karmeleon⁽³³⁾

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-03-19 22:19:59)

What are the odds that only grapes was scum on my wagon?

[NerfedBuJ]

Actually I can townread alisae if shoshin flips scum.

Shoshin if scum has been a shitty partner sure, but my case on alisae rests on her having useless lurksacks as partners

[NerfedBuJ]

Slot needs to go before lylo, I think everyone even if they don't scumread her agrees (confirm this vedith please?)

Let's save nsg the trouble

VOTE: shoshin

Game doesn't need to be complicated, dann is right. Shoshin is scum

[NerfedBuJ]

@Alisae - I would say you don't have enough experience with vedith then, but you probably have more than I do and just haven't changed your first impressions. He's not always a lurksack. I have eyes I've seen him actually post content before.

never have therefore it doesn't exist sry

Sorry I didn't realize you were joking now I feel like an idiot. Put an emoji or something

[NerfedBuJ]

Shoshin reads this game summarized:

Town:
People who townread shoshin + EE

Scum:
People who don't townread shoshin

Check her ISO if you don't believe me.

This is from the person who claims she's awesomesauce at town. How about we judge her by her own standards.

[NerfedBuJ]

The amount of replacements rn disgusts me so I'm not quitting this

Vote shoshin and reduce that number by 1

[NerfedBuJ]

Town:
People who townread shoshin + EE

always gotta single me out, huh

You happen to be hogging the spotlight.

She had to townread you to seem sane.

[NerfedBuJ]

Town:
People who townread shoshin + EE

always gotta single me out, huh

You happen to be hogging the spotlight.

She had to townread you to seem sane.

In fact she specifically used you as a way to refute my "shoshin is only OMGUSing this game" case in day 1. Yet she came right back in day 2 and voted like half the playerlist because they called her out on her SECOND self-vote of the game.

[NerfedBuJ]

Lol

Shit sorry..

Everyone jump on so Prince can hammer. He really wants to

[NerfedBuJ]

First thought on seeing that no one died was that scum would try to frame Prince as mafia, even if just to discredit his reads (since that's probably more powerful than flipping him and having everyone sheep his reads postmortem). Alisae backing off so quickly reads more like overzealous town though. I'll sheep Prince on his read in this slot for now, because I'm not entirely sure how to read it.

Wow.. how are you guys still townreading Alisae.. what do you need?

Seriously are you waiting for a scum slip or a newb mistake. You expect her to scream it from the top of her lungs?

Prince is conftown because of his interactiom with DT. I don't care if he never gets killed.

Trying to paint him in any other way and using the fact that he's RC to do it is exactly the sort of slimy tactics scum are going to try to use.

Also DDL defending clemency is stupid. He has flaked and repped out as scum before.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also DDL defending clemency is stupid. He has flaked and repped out as scum before.

Can I get evidence on this?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=78448

[NerfedBuJ]

I'd say vedith has passed the BoD line of not participating enough.

Vedith/ali anyone?

@DrD - I don't know enough about clem to respond, my point was if he did it once as scum, he's capable of doing it again so shouldn't be something you townread him for.

VOTE: Vedith

[NerfedBuJ]

My current plan of action is lynching all the useless slots / replacements (except for dann).
If we find scum among them, we lynch alisae.
If we don't find scum among them, we lynch Jingle.

Basic math says we don't have enough mislynches to actually do that, so I'll adjust along the way.

Right now vedith has highest percent of flipping scum.

[NerfedBuJ]

To be fair this is in part because I haven't played with jingle enough to know if this is his normal playstyle or what. I know he's very interested in mechanical aspects of the game, but I don't know if that means I can trust his claim that he doesn't effort in games that provide him with little mechanical/flavor interest to motivate him to effort.

I wish I knew how to explain that better but I hope you understand.

[NerfedBuJ]

And gut says alisae is scum over jingle here 9 times out of ten.

It's just that my read on alisae hinges on her having flaky turds for partners.

[NerfedBuJ]

To be fair this is in part because I haven't played with jingle enough to know if this is his normal playstyle or what. I know he's very interested in mechanical aspects of the game, but I don't know if that means I can trust his claim that he doesn't effort in games that provide him with little mechanical/flavor interest to motivate him to effort.

I wish I knew how to explain that better but I hope you understand.

The context for this is that we played in overkill and I put him in top 3 town contributors for that game, which isn't the case here. And we talked about this earlier this game.

[NerfedBuJ]

Does this actually help you or do you think you're helping us with this posting style?

If it's the former I kinda want to know how.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also our definitions of contribution differ massively if you think clem did anything in that game.

[NerfedBuJ]

@buj. I get your analogy now. Sorry for calling it crap I just didnt understand it previously, but now I think I agree with it, although not to 100 percent certainty.

I know you said not 100 percent here but what made you lose the townread?

@Jingle - let me get this straight, Ali is an amazing town player, and an amazing scum player but if e goes at it hard e's scum and if e doesn't e's town? Wouldn't such a polar meta make her bad at both alignments?

I love when people try to use disinterest as a town tell but don't accept it when others use it as a scum tell.

E rolled shitty partners and er good friend replaced out of the game. E doesn't think E can win and E isn't having any fun, and the playerlist has changed. I think I'm right in saying that Ali is a player that takes playerlist into account when she joins games, so it makes sense that replacements could affect er mood and it's NAI. In this game there is 0 indication that she's town. You want to tear my scum case apart go right ahead and give it a try. Disagree with me. But don't fool yourself into thinking she has towntold. A bloody nullread is more believable.

[NerfedBuJ]

I don't think xtox is scum. He's not conftown for me but he's close to it.

[NerfedBuJ]

I think if scum are actually playing any sort of organized strategy every scum is in {mcqueen, vedith, xtoxm}
I think if we get multiple scum flips in that pool, we can just lynch the revolving door slots and win.

If we get multiple scum flips it's over.

Also please don't unvote. We need the numbers. There's no point in dragging this day out endlessly, people are not likely to change their mind without some flips. The common theme among players is a large "leftover" list of possible scum - gotta mow that down.

[NerfedBuJ]

Ehhh that's good enough for me. Claiming scum!you would be bussing here is a plausible WIFOM for having grapes bus xtox earlier.

I still think vedith flips scum more often than xtox but I guess we still have time for a higher risk higher reward lynch.

VOTE: Xtox

[NerfedBuJ]

does anyone actually think these associatives spew him town? i'm completely blanking on why I ever thought this was town.
I think that I mostly just assumed that he wouldn't go for this policy lynch play as scum, but that jingle shade was

disgusting

.

They fit as SvS on their own.. I just didn't think he would follow it up with a vote also if it were a buddy. Like shoshin and I were TvT counterwagons on day 1, it was a scum wet dream. Bussing xtox would be overly forced just for the potential distancing.

If this was the only reason for the push I'd hesitate but it looks like scum don't want to ignite you so they have to try to lynch you instead.

[NerfedBuJ]

Why.. they're not scum together

[NerfedBuJ]

5 at the absolute worst case scenario

[NerfedBuJ]

I'm going back to VOTE: vedith

There's too many opposing views over here.. gotta lynch some people let's go.
Seems there's not enough support for xtox.

Prince made decent points but I still like vedith for scum more anyway

[NerfedBuJ]

Also why are people so damn afraid to put some votes up.. it's a town majority game and wagons tend to light fires under people to make some moves.

[NerfedBuJ]

All games are town majority that was stupid phrasing sorry.. you know what I meant.

[NerfedBuJ]

DrD is there a reason you were much more agressive and generally more emotional in that town game we won compared to this game, or is it just when I personally push you all of that comes out?

Like I've been ignoring that the entire game and trying to look at your posts objectively and I want you to tell me why I'm not wrong to townread you despite that.

[NerfedBuJ]

DrD is there a reason you were much more agressive and generally more emotional in that town game we won compared to this game, or is it just when I personally push you all of that comes out?

Like I've been ignoring that the entire game and trying to look at your posts objectively and I want you to tell me why I'm not wrong to townread you despite that.

please read this game and tell me how to be emotional

What do you mean?

[NerfedBuJ]

If you don't want to fight, don't respond to each other. It's that simple. Mafia talk only.

[NerfedBuJ]

Votecount 3.6

Xtoxm(3)

~ mcqueen⁽¹⁹⁾, Vedith⁽¹⁸⁾, Prince of Renais⁽⁸⁵⁾

Dannflor(3)

~ Extrapolated Eagle⁽⁶⁸⁾, Ankamius⁽⁷³⁾, MaxwellPuckett⁽⁴⁶⁾

Ankamius(3)

~ Karmeleon⁽⁸⁷⁾, Dannflor⁽³¹⁾, DrDolittle⁽⁸⁸⁾

Vedith(2)

~ Liger_Zero⁽⁶⁰⁾, NerfedBuJ⁽²¹⁾

DrDolittle(2)

~ RAS⁽³⁹⁾, Jingle⁽⁸⁷⁾

Prince of Renais(1)

~ Xtoxm⁽²¹⁾

MaxwellPuckett(1)

~ Reiuji Utsuho⁽⁵⁷⁾


Not Voting (0):

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2019-04-05 16:49:59)

I now townread all of these lynchees except vedith and max.

[NerfedBuJ]

That is if my assumption that the scumteam is losing and are not efforting much.

If I have reason to suspect a deepwolf exists here then my reads will change also.

[NerfedBuJ]

Okay mcqueen is definitely town.

But no thanks I ain't commenting on that post.

[NerfedBuJ]

Okay mcqueen is definitely town.

But no thanks I ain't commenting on that post.

look Xtoxm can give me flak post game for this, but I can so easily see how his post could be faked.

If it was, Xtoxm is definitely scum.

If not, he’s probably town.

If Xtoxm is scum, prince is not. X- town, p- either

You missed the point.

If I thought it would be useful to comment I would. He posted it in the thread, it's fair game for us to comment on it.

I just don't think it's helpful. If he did it on purpose like you said, then this is a deliberate scum move to make us focus on a the personal fight between them. In which case I'm not letting him dictate what I talk about, and I'll ignore the entire charade.

And if he's town then the whole thing is just personal beef and irrelevant.

But for the record I'm back to townreading him now. I kinda think he wouldn't stay in the game as scum tbh.


Prince is town in any and all cases.

[NerfedBuJ]

Next time don't bother rereading guys coz you suck at it.
Your gutreads are clearly way better than your analysis reads.

[NerfedBuJ]

So you find yourself with a divided town, 6 days before deadline with 6+ wagons and no consolidation yet.

And you think let's start a new wagon, that will fix the game state.

Also you're missing the obvious which is that grapes intentionally pushed me differently than everyone else.

Think about every time you've forced a read on a scumbuddy in the past. You hide them within a group. You don't make them stick out like a sore thumb.

I tend to try harder when bussing as scum than when I push a townie because if one of us has to get lynched I want the survivor to look so damn good after the flip.

But whatever this is wifom and my own experience I don't know grapes

[NerfedBuJ]

VOTE: Nerfedbuj
About time boys

buj flips scum a lot of the time people

My intuition

the rest of his pushes were shade campaigns

you were the only slot he actually PUSHED

If this counts as a push compared to votes he actually faked reasons for than I have no defense that would convince you.

You should read my main's scum games for fun though. I have a feeling you would townread me in almost all of them.

[NerfedBuJ]

It's 2 people. 1 of them being EE who just pulled off the greatest town on town betrayal. He's been townreading me forever.
Jingle has just had a blanket null on my slot. Doesn't count as a scumread.

Anyway if they insist on lynching me at least lynch xtox first. If he flips scum I'm confirmed town because of his recent townspew.

[NerfedBuJ]

Prince is town in any and all cases.

well dont come crying to me when he endgames you

[NerfedBuJ]

What if it's liger and he's hardbussing max. That'd be hilarious

[NerfedBuJ]

Xtox is either insane, or scum, or compeletely overestimating the danger of scum here.

[NerfedBuJ]

Doesn't change anything though.. let's vote

Vedith or liger or max

[NerfedBuJ]

Your problem is you hate Prince so much you think he can still be scum here. When him being scum just makes him one of if not the absolute biggest scumbag on MS. Read back around the time of DT's replacement and tell me how you think that ever comes from scum.

If you have the same view as I do, which is that prince, EE, and rei are all scum here without a shred of doubt, you would also believe that scum have already lost.

[NerfedBuJ]

If you have the same view as I do, which is that prince, EE, and rei are all scum here without a shred of doubt, you would also believe that scum have already lost.

you meant to say town here, yea?

Yes the first scum is supposed to be town. Those 3 are always always town here.

[NerfedBuJ]

I've played over 10 scum games on my main. I think I've played differently in each of them.

Truth is I hate playing scum, I am not confident at it, so I try so many different things so that I eventually build an arsenal of tools I am able to do comfortably as scum. At that point my scum meta might be less random.

By my own judgement the game dann was in was one of my all time worst and probably not an accurate representation of my average.

Though it does showcase an attempt of imitating my town game, so if you can see how it is fake compared to some of my town games you will become very good at reading me.

Like I get scumread a lot as both alignments, but I am so engrossed in my out of the box thinking while town that I have to this date never been suucessful at copying it as scum without it looking fake.

But that isn't always visible to an outsider because most MS players don't know how to townread me as town.

[NerfedBuJ]

Xtox I will make a math post as soon as I get the time. I don't know for sure what the result will be but I'm guessing odds of scum winning this would be less than 2 percent.

[NerfedBuJ]

Fun with math:

Feel free to correct me if I made a mistake.

15 alive.
13:2 town:scum ratio

3 conftown players,
Leaves us with 10:2
We can afford 5 mislynches in the worst case scenario.

We will assume the following in order to calculate the odds in terms of worst case scenario, because anything else would only give us an even higher probability of winning.

Assumptions:
-People that are doused are never lynched
-Scum do not ignite within the suspect list until they can win (this makes the odds of hitting scum less, though we will still assume that we don't hit a doused player, because we are basing this on a 5 mislynch capacity, lynching a doused player would be an extra mislynch)

Odds of scum not getting lynched if random lynching (while avoiding doused players):

Day 3 (5 mislynches left, 0 doused within suspect list) - 10/12 = 83.3%
Day 4 (4 mislynches left, 0 doused within suspect list) - 9/11 = 81.8 % * 83.3% = 68.2%
Day 5 (3 mislynches left, 1 doused within suspect list) - 7/10 = 70% * 68.2% = 47.7%
Day 6 (2 mislynches left, 2 doused within suspect list) - 5/9 = 55.6% * 47.7% = 26.5%
Day 7 (1 mislynch left, 3 doused within suspect list) - 3/8 = 37.5% * 26.5% = 9.9%
Day 8 (lylo, 4 doused within suspect list) - 1/7 = 14% * 9.9% = 1.4%

1.4% that scum avoid the lynch 6 days in a row.

[NerfedBuJ]

Just keep adding the absolute top shelf consensus townreads to that pile as we start identifying them, and the odds of scum winning will approach 0%.

[NerfedBuJ]

Even if I am wrong here somewhere.. arguing this much over which useless slot to lynch is not productive today. It's way too early to let paranoia mess with you. Get a lynch today and tomorrow and let's have a better picture to work with.

[NerfedBuJ]

Townreading vedith is some lowering the bar for scum teams worldwide bullshit

But have it your way VOTE: Liger

[NerfedBuJ]

EE replace me with vedith slot, and add RAS to the end and you'll have a solid lynch order

[NerfedBuJ]

Your assumptions are gross. This is a terrible application of EV math.

I vaguely want to fix this now.

It really isn't. We don't care about the other possibilities. We only care about the odds of losing if we are very very very unlucky and very very very bad at lynching.

Dann could be right, in which case it's 10% chance that scum avoids the lynch. Still insanely good for us.

Take that in mind when designing setups with masons. Confirmed town players fuck up scum big time.

[NerfedBuJ]

Why RAS again?

I am not convinced by the towncases on the slot.
It might be paranoia or it might be ego. Regardless, going by the current game state, that slot is the only one that can be a deepwolf.

[NerfedBuJ]

Also jingle if you are seeing a mistake in this and still can't find the motivation to give a shit, you'll never give a shit this game.

[NerfedBuJ]

Looks like grapes is not as bad at scum as I thought.

[NerfedBuJ]

Looks like grapes is not as bad at scum as I thought.

You think he intentionally framed you?

because that would be a weird thing to jump to

Because looking at those posts I'd want to vote me too, and they're too damn perfect to be a coincidence. I did argue with ank that he wouldn't single out a buddy like that, he'd try to hide his buddies where they're less conspicious, but I can also see it being a distancing move.

I think my own posts have been townie and should be the basis for people's read on me, but I can't deny how bad he made me look.

Okay wait I need to know something before I possibly go down a rabbit hole

@Bujaber,

why do you town read me?

Because your posts have been townie and you seem actively invested in progressing the game.

The only reason I doubt myself is your catchup and your choice of specifically townreading me then, claiming you had to as a reaction to some growing suspicion on me at the time even though you were only up to page 10. Like that whole thing still pings me as a lie.

[NerfedBuJ]

@Ank - I think I didn't get lynched because of EE, DT, and Prince. Rei also townread me for a large proportion of the game, though she's less vocal in general I don't know if people are payinh attention to her reads. My analysis of the game state and flow since day 1 dictates the towncpre is what's keeping me alive, not who is threatening me.

@liger - grapes is absolutely fooling everyone liger because without his posts nobody would have been pinged by me in the first place, which made me scrutinize me more, and allow for confbias and paranoia to sink in.

I voted liger because his push on max feels like bussing to me. He replaced clem, and just the whole game has felt like scum have been doing nothing. It is also the basis of my ali read and paranoia, she is scum with shitty partners. So I could go for max first, I don't mind giving liger that. It's just people are thinking liger's town flip incriminates max, and vice versa, when I think a scum flip is more damning. I also think vedith is very possibly scum here and the townreads on him baffle me. I don't know why he has a reputation for giving a shit as scum more than town. The guy can obvtown with the best of them and there's none of that here. He's basically just tunelled me the whole game or commented on comments about him or posted NAI stuff.

@Dann - so I'm being punished for being right? You replaced DT anyway. I don't need to build a towncase on you by looking at posts and quoting them and explaining to everyone why scum don't make them. Not when nobody thinks you're scum. Also I play catchup most of the time because my bedtime coincides with peak activity, I don't feel particularly motivated to quote specific things from x pages ago just to reiterate a town read on you. My scum game with you is a big part of your impression of me, right? Read some town games. See how well I read people, how I come across, the type of stances I take.

Pedit - jingle, yes the percentages and distributions change depending on who gets primed and who gets lynched. I don't understand the point you're making?

[NerfedBuJ]

Ank you have to look at how my wagon built up, the posts made that sparked the dissipation of my wagon, the townreads received later from the which type of players (sheepers/lurkers). The people saving my ass are not the people that will be here at lylo. Like I don't even know what you could have read to give you that impression. It is a strong theory if somebody came up with it without reading the actual game but in this particular game it doesn't match the game flow.

[NerfedBuJ]

The point was that your mathpost was entirely irrelevant at best.

I only made it to answer xtox's direct question on why I thought scum can't win this.

I think the way I calculated it and the assumptions I made allow me to calculate the worst case scenario for town, meaning all other cases give us even better odds. It is enough to answer his question, or at least explain to him why my perspective of the game is so much different than his.