Newbie 1934: Tundra (Game Over)

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Irrelephant

[Flavor Leaf]

Somehow I foresaw FL’s vote the moment Ausuka stole you from the queue

It’s just RVS, and you should take it as a compliment and an insult had I not RVS’d you.

I don’t even participate in most RVS.

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I think it’s possible to do both. A lot of newbies understand how to play the basis of mafia, newbies are good for etiquette which a lot of players that aren’t newbies throw out, but newbies hold onto it.

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Intent to hammer

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UNVOTE: Elephant

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Let’s keep the momentum going? Someone want to put another vote down on thenavneet?

Third on the wagon? Who could refuse such a generous offer?

VOTE: Thenavneet

One of these are probably scum, but I'm not sure which.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Menalque

Navneet’snprobably town who got ran up, and scum is on that wagon.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL why did you unvote?

Because I felt it was a mislynch. Felt it in my bones. My jellies.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, I’ve given a case for Eggs, which I’ll concede isn’t beyond refutation but at least has a logic to it. Why am I scummier in your eyes?

Vote placements.

I could be wrong, I admit. This question is rather townie, but I don’t know you as a player yet, so I don’t want to be fooled by underestimating you. I imagine I’ll figure it out if I’m wrong or right pretty soon.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s just how I play when I’m town.

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I’m not silly enough to think I can solve so early, so i dont get manipulated by the gamestate.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think that’s a townie play by Uncle.1

[Flavor Leaf]

I generally say all my thoughts.

Why am I expected to have solid and confident reads on page 4? We just started the game, and I’m still learning who you guys are as players.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, you said I’m leaving my options open, but I really am only pushing 2 people, and I’ve chosen one over the other, so that is a flawed post in itself, but it makes sense to me why you’d push for that as town, if that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

Neat. Keep it coming.

I reckon 1 scum on me already, 1 scum in the pair I said previously.

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I never try to look town, not even as town. I just be town.

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What do you mean by unnecessary? Why would I ever do unnecessary work as either alignment, let alone scum?

[Flavor Leaf]

UNVOTE: Melanque

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Cinnamon is more likely scum than Bob is here.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't like flavors behavior here either but again I haven't looked at how he previously plays

I try not to use meta in games, but I get this a lot when I play newbie games. It’s just my posting style I guess.

I have like 20+ newbie games played, never rolled scum in one.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have a tendency not to hard push people, especially in newbie games, because people like to sheep me, so i don’t like going in unless I know, if that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t see Eggs post as scum driven at all.

[Flavor Leaf]

I haven’t fully read their posts, but I’ve gotten the gust of everything. I’ll look deeper later when i’m Off work, but I don’t see him as scum, Menalq.

I think you guys are TvT.

[Flavor Leaf]

I got nothing on FLs posts individually. Will address.

FL's poking around seems pro-town. However posting style seems to be more towards disconnected arbitrary statements rather than fully explained thought processes so I'm finding it harder to get behind (and probably easier to fake). Part of that is probably assumed knowledge that I don't have, and partly probably he just doesn't care about trying to convince at this point.

I need to convince myself about my reads before I start to convince others.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have been known to be extremely genuine as scum, though, if that helps in any way. Whether it be against me or protown me, that can be up to you.

[Flavor Leaf]

That is to say, I townread menalque/Eggs/navneet and don’t yet have reasons to scumlean FL or teacher, but unless the team is 2/3 of cinnamon/Bob/Voted I agree that SEs should get a closer look

Replace me with you and I’m at the exact same spot right now...

Hmm...

[Flavor Leaf]

Idk if I like that, haha.

[Flavor Leaf]

^Agreed
I could see a Bob/cinnamon team, but if not that I would also start looking closer at my fellow SEs

Idk if they both go on me as the scum team, tbh.

I think it’s more likely only 1 of them are scum, possibly with Voted.

[Flavor Leaf]

I find it weird that a Bob/me team is coming up at all from these SEs, even if we both may individually look scummy to them. To me, I don't think anyone would as mafia agree so much with their mafia partner out of nowhere on a player that nobody else is reading as scummy at this point in the game, especially when they aren't being townread themselves (although bob was townread by some at this point).a

The reason why I caveated my read on flavor is that I am currently out and did not have time to provide a full read on him, but I wanted to post my gut reaction to their posts at the time. If teacher can vouch for this as his playstyle, then that weakens my read on him a lot.

I’m actually pushing the opposite. One of you specifically feels like scum to me.

[Flavor Leaf]

Menalque seems quite earnest to me, and I am inclined to think that he is town.

I want Flavour Leaf to explain how his read on me changed.

Eggs is questionable.

Simple. I started to see Cinnamon as town.

[Flavor Leaf]

I could see Irrelephant/Bob scum team, but that’s just a theory. A tin foil theory.

[Flavor Leaf]

@eggs - let’s just kill Bob then if you think that’s an issue.

[Flavor Leaf]

Because nobody else jumped on me. I could be wrong and you guys were both town on me, but that’s not that common.

I’m not like totally against the idea of that having happened, but I don’t have enough to feel like that wasn’t the case yet, if that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess nave could be scum, but they’d just be hurting themselves by not doing much. I think it’s more likely they’re town and scum are pushing them.

[Flavor Leaf]

Eggs and Cinnamon are my stronger town reads right now.

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Because nobody else jumped on me.

So you think wagons of two town are rare?

2 townies on me.

Yeah, I could, but I don’t feel like searching on my phone right now while on public transit.

Nothing comes off the top of my head, but I’m that confident i can search and find if I looked into it

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t have any questions or need for deeper reads yet.

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Like I said Menal vs Eggs was TvT.

And I think Cinnamon is town based on play.

[Flavor Leaf]

These are actually rather strong reads, and I don’t know how to explain it better than that. Idk if that makes sense.

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I kind of don’t think it’s Voted either, but that’s less strong. He looks like Major mislynch bait

I’m hesitant of calling Irrelephant scum because I feel I have a tendency to scum read him, but I’m leaning there, which could just mean he’s town.

Which leaves Teacher, Bob, and Nave.

That’s where I’m at

[Flavor Leaf]

I think it’s Teacher and Bob.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Teacher

One of the SE's are scum based on how this game state is going.

I'm wanting Teacher first because I don't feel like 1v1ing the elephant right now, especially if he's just gonna end up being town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Because all the newbies are being solid town players, which in my experience, the wall posts quality of content being brought in is definitely town indicative

Bob/Nave are the 2 that I think have a chance of being scum, Nave by POE, and if I think Voted is just a mislynch bait type.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, when I'm null on Teacher, it means he's probably scum. If I'm ever lean town or scum on him, he's generally town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Dude, we’ve played together exactly once that I can recall. Have you read others of me? I’ve only rolled scum here once in a way that had a chance to make a difference to a game (twice as obv!scum replacements)

Oh wait. Yeah, I mixed you up with Loopdan. I do that a lot.

[Flavor Leaf]

I actually think I’m generally more power townie than I am here.

Hmm. Distancing between Teach and Voted...?

[Flavor Leaf]

Thought you had me with Bob, who I just nulled.....

Sure, but reads are fluid.

[Flavor Leaf]

Menal, there’s scum in one of the SE’s.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hmm..

Sorry, guys. I somehow ended up in like 6 games right before I’m modding what is essentially 3 large theme games simultaneously, so I’ve been slightly burnt and inactive. I’ll get a whoosh off momentum in the next few days, I feel.

I’m completely caught up here, though. My thoughts are the same.

Only difference I’ve see is Eggs might have some scum equity with Teacher, and Irrelephant just looks really scummy to me but that might make them town.

Regardless, I think Teacher is the correct play and most likely to flip scum still.

[Flavor Leaf]

Baezu coming into Bob slot and town reading me might be TMI, but I can see it happening with her as town, and it seem a like it’s jjst real obvious pocketing if she is scum, so that makes me town read her, which also makes me scum read her because it makes me town read her, however I’m town reading her because I don’t think she should be lynched because I town read her which makes me think she might be scum, but she could be town.


Does this make sense?

[Flavor Leaf]

Intent to hammer

VOTE: Teacher

L-1 folks

Hm, I kind of feel like this might be serious...newbscum tell?

Both jokes. What is wrong?

Which of those were the jokes? I had every intention of hammering or at the very least to make people think I was.

[Flavor Leaf]

I really think Teacher slot is scum and scum is trying to get him off

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I’ve town read the others and explained my town reads on the others.

Damn.

I solved it.

It’s Irrelephant and Teacher.

[Flavor Leaf]

Irrelephant pushing the nave slot, which is mislynch bait

Teacher going after Voted.

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Eggs-Teacher both staying off of Raya actually lowers their scum equity.

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Because the others are town. POE mixed with his nullness and fly by playstyle.

He’s like lock scum for me

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Teacher

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Awkward.

[Flavor Leaf]

Back!

Well, I wouldn't mind having two people play for one slot. Could be interesting.

It’s normally not really precedented, but I wouldn’t mind just letting them do that too.

[Flavor Leaf]

Based on lack of activity, I feel there’s a scum pushing the Raya slot, and amongst the other reasons I’ve stated for others to be town, I’m essentially POE’ing Teacher mixed with explaining that they are staying in the neutral area, which I feel is scummy.

There’s a scum also pushing away from this push.

[Flavor Leaf]

I explained why. Game state and the fact that I feel most of the newbies are town, and also that the game stagnated in a specific way.

[Flavor Leaf]

Cinnamon I think you’re a very capable mafia player. Do you agree?

FL I can think of multiple reasons why town!teacher would stay “in the neutral area”, and i feel like you probably can too. That’s why I’m not scumreading him atm.

Can you elaborate on feeling most newbies are town? It’s taken most of D1 for me to get strong townreads on, well, anyone tbh

I can’t actually. Not with Teacher.

[Flavor Leaf]

However, at the moment Raya has done nothing to show that they aren't scum, so I'm finding it hard to believe this line of logic.

Raya hasn’t done anything, though, which doesn’t make them scum either.

It seems like people are pushing them because they haven’t done anything and pushing it as scum AI. I’m seeing it as NAI. It’s neutral.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s Raya. She ain’t a newbie.

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Why would she just not do anything as scum? There’s zero reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

And that’s exactly it. Raya is getting pushed when they haven’t done anything, and I do see scum motivation in people pushing them.

[Flavor Leaf]

The opportunistic scum could be anyone on it.

Your scum equity goes down because you’re arguing it so hard, and that’s just kind of weird.

Raya “could” flip scum, but I think it’s very opportunistic, and even if Raya is scum here, the partner is bussing.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm not liking Cinnamon near the start. I find he's playing it a bit safe. Especially around 154. I don't like how after Irrelephant challenges what he said he still posts that he thinks irrelephant is scummy but then after seems to backpedal a bit by saying he's not that scummy though and removing his vote. Also some of his wording in 154 seemed safe to me. (Small inconsistencies instead of just inconsistencies, saying it could just be this but I see it more of this makes backpedaling after easier.)

I like eggs for town. Mainly because of 102 (But I like his posts in general). If he were scum he's really not attempting to keep his options open and even when he found some minor things he didn't like he wasn't actively trying to push it which reads as town to me.

Eggs and Cinnamon are my stronger town reads right now.

What made you change your mind about cinnamon?

I think I like menalque. His entrance while being fluff came off as natural. I don't like his push on eggs but he does make some good points that seem like they could come from a town scumhunting pov even though they are a bit of a stretch as someone mentioned. I do like his points made against voted though. His scumhunting appears to be natural to me.

Also related to above, I didn't feel Voted's defense to Menalque's push was sufficient. Self-meta especially is never a good argument in my opinion.

Irrelephant is a strong townlean.

I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.

Can you elaborate on this?



As of now I would be most willing to lynch cinnamon or Voted but I would much rather vote on cinnamon for now.
VOTE: cinnamon

What’s scummy about this? Cinnamon could very well be scum, and this was like 2 days ago.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s really it. That is why Teacher is scum mixed in with POE. You left out the POE part.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think navneet is scum based on how many votes he’s gotten tbh

Did the wagon feel real to you?

[Flavor Leaf]

Just quoting it.

I explained my Eggs town read. Explained my Menalque. Explained my Cinnamon. I very much believe scum to be within the SE’s because nobody is outright scummy, and I feel whichever SE is scum, is working with whichever newbie is scum. Voted looks like mislynch bait. You’re pushing this here so that’s townie. Baezu/bob could be scum, but Baezu played to pocket me, so I’m a little in the middle right there. Raya and nave both got rung up hard.

Teacher is all that is left. Yes, I could be wrong on multiple. But I don’t directly scum read Teacher, but his play makes sense as scum, and he’s POE’d. I could be wrong on one of my town reads, sure, but there is active reason for Teacher to be scum. I actually expect to be wrong on one of my town reads, which is why BaezuBob turns into more just scummy town, because I can also see that.

Teacher’s partner is likely on Raya right now

[Flavor Leaf]

Anyone willing to go Irrelephant?

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Teacher > Irrelephant > Cinnamon is my preference order right now, and I likely won’t go anyone outside of those 3.

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I don’t think there’s necessarily 2 scum within that, but i don’t strictly think there isn’t.

However, I do think there is near zero chance that there isn’t at least 1 scum within.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not going irrelephant today.

I’m not going Raya today

[Flavor Leaf]

FL if you think there’s scum on the Raya wagon why do you think it’s not Voted?

He’s a mislynch. Scum have been setting a gamestate up where he becomes a compromise wagon.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here’s the thing FL: I can imagine a world where you’re right about this. My issue is that I think you’re overthinking it and it’s really not that complicated. I think first scum is someone who looks actively scummy (raya/voted) and that the other will be discernible from VC analysis.

I can’t imagine a game where that’s the actual scum team.

That’s what scum want town to think the scum team is.

[Flavor Leaf]

There’s a reason I’m being caught back so hard rather than steeped. I have halted momentum which means scum don’t want my opinions to be picked up.

[Flavor Leaf]

*faught back, rather than *sheepee

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I’m also going to be night killed this night phase.

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I’m actively pushing the SE’s, and scum just choose to take a likely weak town slot rather than one of the SE’s?

Don’t think so.

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@Ausuka - Menalque is on the VC twice.

[Flavor Leaf]

There is the chance that Raya is scum and I’m correct on the path I’m pushing as well, but Raya will get lynched no matter the day.

I don’t make it past this night phase so I’m not going to join any compromise wagons or ‘slightly possible chances’

[Flavor Leaf]

Look at how Irrelephant’s been speaking. He’s controlling the game state. Discrediting me, but not pushing me. He’s actively making sure I don’t get moment7m.

In contrast towards you, you are actually trying to figure out my thoughts, and attempting to work with me.

If you look into the future with a hypothetical green Raya flip, Irrelephant also stands out hard. He’s also toyed with the idea of Voted, which sets up Voted to be lynched after Raya flips green.

If Irrelephant is town, Cinnamon probably takes the spot, because they’ve more or less been doing the same thing, but they’ve been less powertown projecting.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think 2 scum are on Raya either. I think 1 scum is actively staying off, and I think that scum is Teacher. You can see through Teacher’s posts that the Raya lynch is totally fine with him and he hasn’t defended it or pushed it. He’s trying to make sure it goes through while not specifically being a contributor of it.

That’s scum indicative because it looks townie at surface level.

[Flavor Leaf]

If Baezu were scum, I feel her partner would also have joined onto Teacher. She’s sheeping me because she sees me as town, which she usually does regardless if she reads me correctly. As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

This indicates Baezu slot as town. Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Baezu-Teacher-Eggs are likely at most 1 scum as well, because else Raya would have likely gone through by now, so there isn’t a pair within that.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here’s the thing FL: I can imagine a world where you’re right about this. My issue is that I think you’re overthinking it and it’s really not that complicated. I think first scum is someone who looks actively scummy (raya/voted) and that the other will be discernible from VC analysis.

I read this as can’t earlier. Oops.

[Flavor Leaf]

As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

Baezu and I both on Teacher as town, why would scum ever not push it if Teacher is town? They’d rather have a Raya lynch over teacher? One that would incriminate them much harder after a green flip?

If Baezu is scum going on TownTeacher, what’s the point in that?

Baezu-Raya scum team I guess could counteract that. Idk. If I’m super wrong, why is scum not taking advantage of me being wrong. I’d take the blunt of the damage for it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m leaning Teacher-Irrelephant

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m leaning Teacher-Irrelephant

Teacher-cinnamon
Baezu-raya
You-Voted
Mayyybe Voted-raya?

Are the teams that make sense to me right now
Doesn’t have to be one of those three but they’re where my head is at
Baezu-raya is the least towny team and raya is the least towny slot

Me-Voted, why do I fight Raya lynch so hard then instead of lynching and then pushing a 1 off 1 on mentality, which would give me ample fire for both you and menalque?

This looks fabricated.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL if you think there’s scum on the Raya wagon why do you think it’s not Voted?

He’s a mislynch. Scum have been setting a gamestate up where he becomes a compromise wagon.

You’re talking about Voted here? I *very* don’t see it. Who’s setting up Voted as a compromise? I’m not voting Voted today

It’s a between the lines kind of thing. By town reading other slots, it creates a gamestate of a Least Valuable Player kind of deal.

And I think it’s pretty visible that if Raya wagon doesn’t go through and teacher doesn’t get picked up, Voted gaining momentum is what would do it.

[Flavor Leaf]

You’re right; if you are town, Teacher-Cinnamon are most likely.

[Flavor Leaf]

Irrelephant-Baezu has some equity

[Flavor Leaf]

Really...? I was in queue for SOOOO long.

[Flavor Leaf]

There’s a scum also pushing away from this push

The only two saving me are Menalque and elephant. If you can’t articulate a scumread on either me OR elephant, maybe that should make you reconsider?

I have articulated a scum read on both you AND irrelephant.

[Flavor Leaf]

.It seems like people are pushing them because they haven’t done anything and pushing it as scum AI. I’m seeing it as NAI. It’s neutral.

But I’m lock-scum?????

No. If you’re town, Irrelephant’s lock scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Anyone willing to go Irrelephant?

His play on me does not feel like a white knight. I was open early in the game, but see him as bleeding town for the past few days. No.

Doesn’t mean that much when I see you-Irrelephant as the most likely team right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

You’re only reinforcing it.

The next step from the scum pairing of you guys is to push me.

You guys want to, but don’t know how to outlogic me.

[Flavor Leaf]

So you’re forced to town read me, but you’ve both been looking for reasons to hop and twist your way into it.

[Flavor Leaf]

@539

Nah mate. You’re off on at least me. Like your worldview makes sense (I had been suspecting an SE scum because of the newb strength), but I don’t get why elephant would push so hard against a town!me lynch. Likewise, I don’t see why scum!you pushes me so hard today rather than lay seeds that would definitely bear fruit in later days.

Easy.

If you’re town, you’re the night kill after Raya mislynch because it’ll give Irrelephant town cred.

[Flavor Leaf]

And potentially enough cred to be able to stand up in a 1v1 with me.

[Flavor Leaf]

And potentially enough cred to be able to stand up in a 1v1 with me.

So long as he has some backup.

[Flavor Leaf]

.It seems like people are pushing them because they haven’t done anything and pushing it as scum AI. I’m seeing it as NAI. It’s neutral.

But I’m lock-scum?????

No. If you’re town, Irrelephant’s lock scum.

Basically this. Why? I don’t see scum motivation for countering your push on me, when elephant knows I can play well, and could actually dig in at any time.

White Knighting, dude.

You aren’t a mislynch for him because he wants to be on your side.

I am actually starting to lean scum on Irrelephant more than Teacher atm, for what it’s worth.

[Flavor Leaf]

You were never going to push Irrelephant. He’s pushing you as town.

That’s a pocket.

It happens to the best of us.

[Flavor Leaf]

Disagree. That’s the exact scum kill I would make in this scenario as Scum in Irrelephant’s position.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s a good night kill with solid reasoning that wouldn’t incriminate Irrelephant by a player that isn’t me.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s a good night kill with solid reasoning that wouldn’t incriminate Irrelephant by a player that isn’t me.

The isn’t me part is the most relevant, because he isn’t trying to get me to town read him. He’s trying to get other people to not take stock into what i say.

[Flavor Leaf]

This could easily just be you doing a similar thing to him.

ScumTeacher also kills Irrelephant in this scenario if Irrelephant is town.

I’m always a solid choice for the Night Kill as well, because it relieves pressure off of you guys. Even if it incriminates you a little, that’s much easier to fight against than me actively in this game.

At least One of you 2 are lock scum, though.

Scum in the newbies doesn’t just sit back here.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s a good night kill with solid reasoning that wouldn’t incriminate Irrelephant by a player that isn’t me.

The isn’t me part is the most relevant, because he isn’t trying to get me to town read him. He’s trying to get other people to not take stock into what i say.

Disagree. He is actively trying to get you to explain what your saying, so it isn’t just a vets take, but the logic is also explained so it can be weighed.

I explained this when I was talking with Menal about why it was different between Elephant doing it and Menalque.

Menalque was trying to work with me.

Irrelephant was trying to work me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean, if you try to convince me that irrelephant is town, then I’m just gonna see you as the scum, and vice versa.

I know I’m town, and scum doesn’t not let me push through a mislynch on one of you.

Scum is literally shooting themselves in the arm by not going along with me or allowing a gamestate where I can push through one of you.

That means there is scum within you 2.

[Flavor Leaf]

Intent to hammer in less than an hour

[Flavor Leaf]

Nope, because I’m no longer there with Eggs. He’s right there above Cinnamon and lower than the others now

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess I’ll keep it at L-2, but

voted should certainly claim because my intent is there and clearly flavors is as well

, notmafia style

What do you mean?

I’ve been known for coming out of nowhere with my

“did somebody say L-1?” Hammer catchphrase since 2014.

[Flavor Leaf]

Switch you and elephant and you, then put Voted above Baezu

[Flavor Leaf]

Eh it’s fluid. I’ll probably switch. I say everything when it comes up

[Flavor Leaf]

I am actually starting to lean scum on Irrelephant more than Teacher atm,

What happened?

I said starting to.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s also POE and gamestate. I don’t really care about meta reasons. Those are just supplementary.

[Flavor Leaf]

Your fixation on it is pretty scummy too.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m willing to accept I’m wrong if things happen that show me I am, but that’s not the case here.

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean...

I still think it’s you AND irrelephant.

[Flavor Leaf]

Teacher’s obviously scum... he’s posturing so hard.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually, that’s kind of townie.

[Flavor Leaf]

To paint you as scum if town you took it...?

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Irrelephant

[Flavor Leaf]

Y’all convinced me

[Flavor Leaf]

FL is trying to put other SEs in 1v1, while both refuses to do so (did I get this right?)
If so, then it is very likely that Teacher and Irrelephant have same alignment.

Why?

I believe one of them is scum, they both could be scum, but that’s just what it looks like at face value to me.

I’m starting to lean only one of them have scum

[Flavor Leaf]

No, because I don’t think many of the newbies are scum...?

You’re pandering.

Neither Irrelephant nor Teacher are going to 1v1 so they try to diffuse me.

I feel like if they were town, they

would

1v1 me, but scum them can’t push me or they’re gonna come off as scum in the end.

I’m very hard for scum to push.

[Flavor Leaf]

My early day phases are strictly to elicit reactions from players for the late game.

Just because I scum read or town read someone now doesn’t mean I think they are scum or town.

[Flavor Leaf]

By doing specific things, scum are forced to act in a different way, and that’s able to be analyzed afterwards.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL does the fact that both teacher and irrelephant are on the Raya wagon have any bearing on your analysis?

Yeah, i think that’s a mislynch scum are going for.

Even if one of them are scum, they’re probably scum with Raya. I don’t know which of them is scum at this point, but I know one of them is for sure.

[Flavor Leaf]

Part of me is starting to feel FL’s refusal to acknowledge the scumminess of the scummiest slot has scum motivation, because lynching someone other than Raya benefits scum!Flavor regardless of Raya’s alignment (if town, D2 gets easier. If scum, well duh)
But another part of me is reminded that longer deadlines help scum more than town in newbie games and this feels the exact kind of long-deadline paranoia that’s likely to lead me to a mislynch

Ah, see, now he finally took the bait and found a way to twist it back.

I was waiting for this.

This one’s the scum one.

[Flavor Leaf]

Pine’s here now. Case what you were trying to case on Raya on him then. We’ll see what you come up with.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s posturing, though. I don’t think you’re coming from a town mindset.

You’re physically doing stuff that is townie, yes, but I don’t believe you are doing said townie things from a town mindset.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m the towniest slot in the game

[Flavor Leaf]

You’ve just been trying to twist words here and there to make that not the case.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s literally what scum do. It’s the chain connection of all said things.

Scum actively try to be townie, so people pushing hard mislynch bait stuff is weak.

[Flavor Leaf]

You’ve just been trying to twist words here and there to make that not the case.

Answer this honestly: do you think Raya’s slot HAS DONE anything towny this game

Nave early wagon generally implies to me that the slot is town, mixed in with the resistance I’m getting from going against it when I was pushing Teacher

Alternatively, scum is happy that I’m pushing you 2, and doesn’t care where the lynch ends up, which also implies Raya slot townie.

I don’t need actions done from that slot to be able to read it.

Regardless, this style of play will put scum after a flip even if you both are town, and Raya slot is town.

I’ll likely be killed due to either them trying to incriminate one of yous, or yous taking pressure off yourselves by killing me and choosing to fight with the “why’d we kill him? That incriminates.”

And I have literally successfully town read people because of how scummy they were recently, and have caught people as scum because I town read them, so if that’s where your limits in mafia can comprehend, so be it, but I’ve moved past that limitation.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s also a blanket statement.

I personally find playing scum easier than playing town.

[Flavor Leaf]

if I get lynched always always always lynch on my wagon

This was always the case, even with Teacher, with a green flip.

[Flavor Leaf]

Teacher is potential scum with Raya slot.

Bussing and trying to tie me there is possible, but I don’t think Raya slot flips red, but that’s just a theory.

A boon theory.

[Flavor Leaf]

What can I say that I haven’t said already. I’m actually starting to lean just 1 of you guys again.

VOTE: teacher

Like, it’s you.

You know I know it’s you. You just gotta put on the show because other people aren’t convinced yet.

I’ll convince them eventually, but probably not day 1.

[Flavor Leaf]

So you best kill me now.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, I no longer think that it’s an all SE team, so why should I defend it?

[Flavor Leaf]

I like hammering

[Flavor Leaf]

And it was funny

[Flavor Leaf]

Teacher-Pine...?

Nah, I still think Pine greens.

[Flavor Leaf]

My of-the-moment thought is a Pine red flip would make me want to lynch Baezu, and a Pine green flip would make me want to flip Flavor
If Pine flips green here though my jaw will drop

Oh, how funny that teacher said a Pine red flip makes him want me.

And irrelephant says a pine green flip makes him want me.

[Flavor Leaf]

Please go teacher today. They’re setting up later mislynches.

Or PR investigate me.

Unless I’m the PR, then I’m gonna confirm Irrelephant.

[Flavor Leaf]

No need to role fish.

[Flavor Leaf]

My point was more that seems an odd way to speak as it would imply that you’re a PR or scum. However, in either case you don’t seem the type to accidentally mention it. Hence the question.

Well, here’s the thing.

If I’m a PR, i want scum to think I’m a VT.

If I’m VT, i want scum to think I’m a PR.

However, by acting like I’m trying to pretend I’m a PR, scum will likely think I’m just trying to act like I’m a PR, while actually a VT, so I start to do that as a PR, and vice versa.

Does this make sense?

[Flavor Leaf]

My point was more that seems an odd way to speak as it would imply that you’re a PR or scum. However, in either case you don’t seem the type to accidentally mention it. Hence the question.

Well, here’s the thing.

If I’m a PR, i want scum to think I’m a VT.

If I’m VT, i want scum to think I’m a PR.

However, by acting like I’m trying to pretend I’m a PR, scum will likely think I’m just trying to act like I’m a PR, while actually a VT, so I start to do that as a PR, and vice versa.

Does this make sense?

And if you are scum, do you want town think you are PR or VT?

Mm, unsure what I’d do. I’ve never rolled scum in a newbie game out of like 20+ newbie games.

[Flavor Leaf]

Y’all just keep settin’ me up, and i don’t like it

[Flavor Leaf]

I would quite like Irrelephant to explain why Pine being town makes FL scum. Seems backwards to me.

Setting me up for when Pine flips town

[Flavor Leaf]

Please go teacher today. They’re setting up later mislynches.

Or PR investigate me.

Unless I’m the PR, then I’m gonna confirm Irrelephant.

[Flavor Leaf]

d a scumbuddy who refused not to bus.

if true this would be gamethrowing. Regardless of truth, because of that fact, it’s contrary to the rules.

Is also wifom’y because you expect him not to say that about his partner, so I’m even more incriminated.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, yeah. I’m incriminated hard.

I’m VT. I was wrong. Yeah.

Menalque was the main person other than Baezu who was taking what I had to say into consideration, so yeah, that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think Pine was lying when he said his partner was bussing, but I think he said it thinking we would think there wasn’t.

I admit, I was incorrect. I have a tendency to play devil’s advocate.

Jazz Mafia just ended, large normal, we went 4 consecutive days lynching mafia, zero mislynches.

I correctly scum read 3/4 scum members real early on, but then people start pushing, and I have a tendency to play devil’s advocate even against scum reads of mine when people start pushing.

Something was off about the wagon to me, so I believe there was a bus, which is why it wasn’t getting hammered earlier.

I still am actually leaning Teacher...? I think, but yeah.

I understand the position I’m in. Menalque dying was a chop at my support as well, so scum expect me to get lynched today.

It is what it is.

Hopefully someone investigated me.

[Flavor Leaf]

After I flip, please do not flip Baezu.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, yeah. I’m incriminated hard.

I’m VT. I was wrong. Yeah.

Menalque was the main person other than Baezu who was taking what I had to say into consideration, so yeah, that makes sense.

Do you think townreading you is tmi at this point or are you redeemable?

It’s not TMI. Baezu has a history of correctly reading me as town even when I have a lot of pressure on me.

She’s done it almost every single time accurately.

[Flavor Leaf]

When I’m scum, my scum partner typically doesn’t ever get lynched.

If I was scum with any of them, I’d have been coaching, and at the very least, have them try to claim a PR to out a PR.

Menalque is also an extremely suboptimal kill from scumMe, even for the WIFOM potential.

I am town being set up, which is why I believe that scum is still Teacher.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Eggs - that lynch order by you allows scumTeacher to win this. I’m actually 95% sure that Teacher is still scum.

@Investigative role or potential JK - if you targeted me last night, you need to claim because that clears me.

Actually i think we should just claim anyways, because we get 2 inno’s and if we have a JK, we can get more inno’s every night.

[Flavor Leaf]

If nothing clears me, then I’ll go down today. That’s fine.

But do not let Teacher end game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fwiw I still believe you.

Not sure who pines partner is but I have a feeling they’ll be pushing your lynch hard today

Did you clear me Baezu, or are you just reading me?

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm kind of inclined to think Flavor is townie here. However, if we were to do a mass claim, assuming there's one investigative with an inno (otherwise they would've claimed already) and the mafia has a roleblocker we will only have 3 confirmed towns for the rest of the game, so we aren't guaranteed victory. Unless the inno is on Flavor it may not be best to claim atm.

I still think it’s fine.

Personally, I’d like to know as much as I can, especially if I’m not the inno, because I could give my final thoughts and make a plan prior.

[Flavor Leaf]

There's also the world where there's only one PR and then we'd be left with two innos for the game

To be fair, there’s 7 players left, 2 conf townies, 4 unconf townies, 1 scum.

That’s still decent odds, and that’s literally the bare minimum.

There’s a chance we have 3 inno’s and the ability to inno people later or force a No Kill situation.

The rewards are far greater than any risk.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh, right.

Tracker also gets confirmed Inno/guilties.

Tracker who tracked someone who didn’t target the night kill should also claim that, because that confirms Inno’s.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can also tell you right now that Cinnamon/Baezu are town unless they’re being next level, which I don’t think they are.

Teacher is scum 9/10 times here. I feel like I was really solidly setup, which in actuality isn’t a solid setup because I’m the type who gets out of hard guilties in closed setups, so I’d never get setup like that.

[Flavor Leaf]

For the record, I think Flavor probably has to die today if there isn't an inno, even though I think he's acting townie. I look way more at voting patterns and actions than reads based on tone and Flavor's actions yesterday just make too much sense as mafia.

This actually is a reason to town read me, but I digress.

That’s one of my strongest things as Mafia is abusing Wagonomics.

[Flavor Leaf]

I continue to maintain I will never be voting for teacher, Voted, or cinnamon until those are my only options
Flavor, you say Baezu reads you accurately when you’re town. Why couldn’t scum!Baezu be doing that here?

I do not have an inno on Flavor

There’s zero reason for her to do it because if I go down, she’s likely next, and her town reading me doesn’t save me.

From my perspective, the scum was near 100% bussing yesterday, which is why it was stagnated.

Teacher backtracked off after I claimed my intent to hammer, which was scummy.

Teacher’s also abusing you, I feel this game.

If you feel confident in Cinnamon/Voted not being scum ever, fine, but Teacher should NEVER endgame. Okay?

[Flavor Leaf]

Like honestly, NEVER does he end game.

If you go me today, this needs to be 100% agreed upon.

[Flavor Leaf]

I was wrong on Raya slot because I feel I was correct other ways, and that’s why the gamestate is how it is. Don’t know how to put that into words.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have cased. I just don’t do it in one post, but honestly I’m not worried about that.

@Baezu, can you claim when you get here?

I’m generally not that incredibly wrong, but I guess I could be.

[Flavor Leaf]

A tracker with a VT (meaning they didn't see that person visit anyone) is a guaranteed win.

Actually, even if the Tracker got a result is good for us too.

Either it’s a guilty or it confirms whoever they got as town.

Tracker, JK, Cop, and Neapolitan all get innos with every target.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here should be the plan.

Everyone should claim all results UNLESS they are a doctor.

Any doctor out there should claim VT in that case.

[Flavor Leaf]

If they got a result on a PR it's not an autowin though, so I don't think it's the best to claim that. It'll give 3 conf towns

JK can be toleblocked and not know it fwiw.

No they can’t.

Scum aren’t multitasking.

[Flavor Leaf]

If they role blocked, whatever, they give up their kill and it essentially does the same thing.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here should be the plan.

Everyone should claim all results UNLESS they are a doctor.

Any doctor out there should claim VT in that case.

Rolefishing.

We are 6:1. Massclaim should wait til tomorrow.

Lol

[Flavor Leaf]

Ah.

Still whatever.

I think scum is against mass claiming in this scenario anyways.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is from Newbie 1929, RC won by doing exactly that, roleblocking and killing

I’ve never been scum in my 20+ newbie games, so makes sense I was wrong.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here should be the plan.

Everyone should claim all results UNLESS they are a doctor.

Any doctor out there should claim VT in that case.

Rolefishing.

We are 6:1. Massclaim should wait til tomorrow.

Lol

Elephant kindly weigh in here to show the proper strat. It’s not massclaim.

Lol

[Flavor Leaf]

Everyone always says stuff like that, but that’s a flaw in mechanical based players. That just risks not getting any results because of potential PR’s dying in the night which is how scum skate by and coast.

I always think town shouldn’t be greedy and just give their results in these positions, because you get to see how scum react afterwards, and townies become super obvious in newbie setups.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think any claims should come out, and I’ll argue this post game if you want, because there’s literally zero reasons that would ever convince me otherwise.

Been through this argument many times.

I’m also not a mechanical player like most players.

Everyone always thinks that I want this big fancy pull off the solo victory from way behind victory for some reason, but I’d rather just have great team cohesion, and work together.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, scum tend to pick up PR crumbs more than town, and at this point, i feel getting everyone on the same page minimizes scum’s informed minority advantage, but people like to argue against that for some reason because they’d rather go mechanical analysis than actually just analyze, which in conjunction to mechanical, it’s just plain stronger play.

[Flavor Leaf]

Teacher is clearly scum here trying to avoid having people claim anything.

[Flavor Leaf]

As scum, the way I am playing guarantees I lose.

I’m actually objectively town here, but I digress.

[Flavor Leaf]

The plays I’m trying to make happen, guarantees I do not win the game as scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Everyone always says stuff like that, but that’s a flaw in mechanical based players. That just risks not getting any results because of potential PR’s dying in the night which is how scum skate by and coast.

I always think town shouldn’t be greedy and just give their results in these positions, because you get to see how scum react afterwards, and townies become super obvious in newbie setups.

You’ve heard of crumbs right?

Lol.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m the master of crumbs. Go check Overkill 2.

[Flavor Leaf]

I disagree. That’s mechanic based statistics, which I have on record that I have time and time again played against.

I made a comment somewhere on site, I’ll find it eventually, of why time and time again I have abused and taken advantage of the statistically correct plays because of mechanic based players relying on it.

My 2 year scum undefeated streak a while back took advantage of that a lot.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think what you're suggesting here Flavor will be bad in a number of setups that can only guarantee two confirmed townies who will die in the night like in A2, A3 and C1 but I suppose we can talk about this more post game.

The thing is, I never think it’s not worth the risking it because I don’t see it as that big of a risk.

So we have to play essentially mountainous for a bit. Alright, that doesn’t matter to me. I’ll just use my deductive reasoning and analytical skills which people don’t like to trust.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m 50/50 on Baezu having inno’d me.

What do you do in that scenario?

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually, I think Eggs could be the last scum when I relook at the wagons.

Look at where Eggs was the entire time. Didn’t join Nave wagon until there were already 3 people on.

Also wasn’t on Pine for the majority of the day, and the fourth slot.

Menalque dying chops defense off of me, but just sly enough so Teacher has full momentum to push me into a mislynch which also sets up Teacher for an eventual mislynch.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yes. I’ve done it.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s why I do it. That’s one of my tricks to get people to unvote my partner.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually, I think Eggs could be the last scum when I relook at the wagons.

Look at where Eggs was the entire time. Didn’t join Nave wagon until there were already 3 people on.

Also wasn’t on Pine for the majority of the day, and the fourth slot.

Menalque dying chops defense off of me, but just sly enough so Teacher has full momentum to push me into a mislynch which also sets up Teacher for an eventual mislynch.

VOTE: flavor

Yeah still the number one lynch here.

Do not let him survive. If he gets to lylo he has to go, don't let him smooth talk you out of it.

He's also vt so we don't have to push Baezu for role and endanger mechanical end.

Lol, lynch this tomorrow.

@Teacher - make sure this happens if you’re town, which I actually started to lean through this day phase arguing, please

[Flavor Leaf]

Like yeah, go me today.

Don’t let my scum reads end game please.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Voted - please say you inno’d me. Lol

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean, yeah, Voted just needs to say if he has an inno on me or not, then end this day with my lynch.

DO NOT LYNCH BAEZU BEFORE EGGS/TEACHER.

[Flavor Leaf]

Save me Voted, lol