Newbie 1934: Tundra (Game Over)

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Voting for someone because you like their name and avatar? Clearly evil VOTE: irrelephant

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No, that's another forum, this is the jamitor interview, for jam makers

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What do you mean by etiquette, Flavor?

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No, that's another forum, this is the jamitor interview, for jam makers

And where can I find the ja

n

itor forum? I really need the money!

Are you sure that's what you want? Jam-making's a good job, mate. It's challenging work, out of doors. I guarantee you'll not go hungry.

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Wandering the beautiful orchards collecting fruit, bringing it lovingly back to the farmhouse, carefully washing the tender morsels -- then slamming them into the crusher until they're barbarised beyond recognition, pouring a motherload of sugar over them, boiling the living daylights out of them, then finally popping them into identikit jars and mailing them off to the buyers.

Interested?

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Oh, this is awkward... we work with strawberries, raspberries, cranberries, cherries, red grapes, red apples, pomegranate, watermelon, and guava.

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Not sure what to do with the complete lack of a response to my self vote
but uh
I guess your reactions are NAI since you all ignored it
:/

I thought it seemed a little scummy but wanted to wait and see what the SEs were reading from it, because it came so early on

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Not sure what to do with the complete lack of a response to my self vote
but uh
I guess your reactions are NAI since you all ignored it
:/

I thought it seemed a little scummy but wanted to wait and see what the SEs were reading from it, because it came so early on

I, as an SE, think it was very towny. I got a wagon going quick, which is always good!
Speaking of, wanna vote thenavneet? They're currently my strongest scumread

You’re funny, but I still think it’s slightly scummy as based on other threads here, and the wiki, the general consensus seems to be that there’s no good reason to ever vote yourself as town.

That said, I appreciate that it was very early on and is probably NAI. Plus, I’m assuming that we’re unlikely to get a lot more out of you from pressuring, so why not: VOTE: thenavneet

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I believe that does make it

L-2

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Seriously though, I’d appreciate it if Flavor could give thoughts on the self-vote there from irrelephant.

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That Bob’s phrasing was odd. “One of his partners”. But we know that if he’s mafia then there’s only one partner, so use of the plural stands out. I don’t think it necessarily means Bob is bad but it makes me think maybe he’s probably not actually persuaded that irrelephant is bad.

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Sorry: first “he’s” is meant to be irrelephant, second “he’s” is Bob.

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Let’s keep the momentum going? Someone want to put another vote down on thenavneet?

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How you feeling about being at L-1, nav?

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UNVOTE: VOTE: eggs

Makes sense.

I actually think Eggs is coming off by far the scummiest so far.

Why? First post is a vote on teacher. There was nothing happening with teacher at the time, and so that was unlikely to get a wagon going or apply any pressure, so it was a way to seem like he was doing something while actually doing very little.

He then disappears until I ask for someone to put a vote on nav, which he comes in to do while "accidentally" claiming that his vote only brought nav to L-2, despite the fact that I had clearly stated on the prior page that my vote was putting nav at L-2. His attempt to deflect this page with a "oooopsie, my bad guys, miscount haha!" says to me that he realised his play for someone not reading the thread properly accidentally hammering resulting in a quick lynch didn't work and is now trying to cover his arse.

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Flavor, I’ve given a case for Eggs, which I’ll concede isn’t beyond refutation but at least has a logic to it. Why am I scummier in your eyes?

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That's fair, I figured that hopping around might come across a little scummy. However, I thought it was worth the risk as from the wiki it seems that the recommendation is that getting wagons going Day 1 is important for information gathering. My votes for irrelephant and thenavneet were both a part of that, whereas my vote for eggs is because I still think that the claim that he didn't realise that he was putting nav at L-1 is the scummiest thing in thread so far.

If we look at his last post, there's also no effort to defend himself beyond "I was sleepy". Plus "I'd be voting me" seems like it could be very plausibly be a double bluff.

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Bob, what do you think of my points re: Eggs?

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Why do you think Flavor's behaviour (keeping his options open) is scummier than Eggs claiming to not notice he was putting someone at L-1?

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I'd like to add this about Eggs: we can see that he made his first post of the day at 6:40 UK time, while his post here didn't come until after 7:30. Therefore, it's not convincing that he wouldn't have been awake enough by that point to miss that he was putting nav at L-1.

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Cinnamon, same question as the one for Bob: why do you think Flavor's behaviour (trying to look town) is scummier than Eggs claiming to not notice he was putting someone at L-1?

Also, thanks for the response Bob.

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I think mafia are more likely to check the count more carefully than town and there's no scum motivation to accidentally declare L-1.

Everyone has a good reason to check the count carefully, why should it be more likely from mafia?

Plus there's a difference between miscounting to claim L-1 when it's actually L-2 compared to claiming that it's L-2 when it's actually L-1. Your situation is not comparable to teachers because his misclaim on the L-X was never at risk of causing a super-early lynch.

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Sorry, I'm an English Language teacher which means working on a somewhat unpredictable basis. I've been pretty busy since yesterday evening, I'll post more in-depth later tonight.

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Brief thoughts from mobile:

I don’t have much faith in tone as a way of reading things and I still think eggs has done the scummiest thing so far objectively. That said, I’m aware that he’s being mostly read as town who made a genuine slip. For now, I’m leaving my vote where it is, but I’ll change if (a) someone does something I think is objectively more scummy or (b) we start getting closer to the deadline and there’s still no appetite for an eggs wagon.

Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.

If we’re not going for eggs then I’d be okay with getting on voted or cinnamon. I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread. I’ll try to post something longer tomorrow.

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Afraid I still haven’t had a chance to write anything longer on laptop. I’ll get to it on Sunday. There are two alternatives that I’d be equally happy to lynch for Day 1 and I’ll explain who and why in more depth next post.

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My new strongest scumread is

Voted,

by a tidy amount. See below for why. Other than that I still think that Eggs is the second best for scum, and I'm confused why no one else has pressured him when at least 2-3 others have commented that the L-1/L-2 'mix-up' is a good objective reason to be suspicious.

Reasons to lynch voted:

thenavneet is in L-2, right? Lets put him on L-1 so we get from RVS
VOTE: thenavneet

E: forgot to add the signature so you don't lynch me for fakehammer

I don’t get the e? Plus 61 is actually a double vote from 24 - what’s the point?

I din't wanted to get lynched for a joke.

This is weird. There's no rational reason to think that adding your signature makes you less likely to be lynched for fakehammer. Being particularly concerned about being lynched also seems scummy. Other players (i.e. Cinnamon, who I think is probably town) had what I thought was a more natural response in showing some concern about the logic for why they were being pushed for a lynch without seeming genuinely afraid of it. Likewise, when votes have come my way it hasn't particularly bothered me as I've assumed it was just to add pressure. At this point, voted wasn't really anywhere near at risk. Therefore the concern is excessive.

Actually, list of who I would like to see lynched D1. I will dismiss SEs, because I don't like lynching experienced players D1.

The consideration should not be "is this player experienced" but "has this player done things that seem scummy/that advance the ends of scum". Often, that may be harder to determine with an SE or they may avoid doing it too early on. But it's a bad policy to not consider SEs for a D1 Lynch. It seems scummy and like an attempt to get SEs on side, which also fittingly comes at a point, along with your general activity, when I think people were starting to view you more and more as scum.

Eggs posts reads. Menalque only pushed Eggs for only one thing. D1 you are only guessing who is scum so there is huge chance of mislynch (actually, I have never played a game where town would lynch scum D1). Mislynching good and active player hurts town a lot.

Also, active scum can help town more than lurking town.

Eggs and Cinnamon are my stronger town reads right now.

Confused by how more people are not calling this out. This is terrible logic. Active scum are almost certainly not going to be helping town unless they are very bad. On the contrary, good active scum are going to be able to get pushes for wagons on lurking town using

exactly

this logic right here. Yes, active town are more helpful than lurking town. But it's a ridiculous claim that having people actively trying to distort the game in their favour being more active (and therefore arguably more likely to be townread if activity is seen as town-indicative) is more beneficial to town compared to town not posting much.

Eggs related:

VOTE: Voted

Where did this come from? If I'm right and voted is scum, then this could be used as evidence to defend yourself from scum charges tomorrow, i.e. it's a pre-emptive bus.

I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread.

Things that are bothering me:

77 and 84 are an interesting concern/weak read. By 136 he's townreading someone purely on the basis of voting FL, so presumably he has a hard read at this point? Otherwise that is a free pass he's just given out.

86 and 89 are too easy. 'Points are reasonable' is very noncommittal and 'keeping options open' maybe?

Okay, this is the thing that -- if someone else starts acting suspiciously -- is most likely to make me stop seeing you as scum. Your objective actions are why you're still high for me, but I like the point about switching to a hard read out of nowhere. Also I feel like saying that my points were reasonable when even I'd admit that a couple of them were stretchy given the overall information at that point may have been trying to pocket me, which kinda worked. Overall though, FL doesn't seem scummy to me, so I'm not buying this as a theory. If Bob's votes end up looking funny tomorrow and yours don't, I could get behind him as Voted's partner.

Other stuff:

One thing that I would really like to hear about are reads on the SEs and their interactions so far. I really don't like that they are all thinking along the same lines

As I believe I mentioned in one of my last two posts, I like this. If there were two of them coordinating, I feel that this would be very likely to be picked up on by the third who would necessarily be town. If one of them is scum, it's harder to predict, but so far I see nothing that seems weird or scummy to me. Then again, I think I'd be less likely to pick up an SE doing that in any case. If I start reading any as scum I doubt it'll be until day 2 based on voting patterns for whoever gets lynched today.

Indeed, the tone comment is odd from someone who writes 20

Okay, I'm curious. What bearing does that post have on the fact that I don't think tone is very useful for determining who's scum and who's not?

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UNVOTE:

VOTE: Voted

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That's L-2.

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Also, I realised I fucked up my formatting in the long post: please ignore the bit where I've quoted FL's #189.

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I don't have time to respond properly right now, but Voted's last post has done precisely nothing to convince me he's not the best lynch today. Does someone want to get him up to L-1? There is a dearth of serious L-1ing as far as I can see.

I'll post this evening with why I find his comments so unconvincing.

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I think it’s Teacher and Bob.

Why?

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Also, Eggs, I didn’t miss your reply to me but I have more questions and I’m on mobile right now.

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Also, what is mislynch bait? From context I’m assuming it’s some meta-related argument for not lynching the most obviously scummy player?

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Adding my signature will make town aware that I knew it is

fake

, joke hammer so they won't lynch me for trying to hammer sameone and pretending I though I am putting him in L-1. I have experience from Town of Salem that making jokes whisout samewhat indicating there are jokes is enough to get me lynched - hence the need of "defence".


Not wanting to lynch SEs and active/ eperienced players is my meta. NAI.

(1) I don't see how you can reasonably think anyone would (a) think that you were legitimately hammering someone, especially when you'd already voted and people were making jokes about L-X (or not, as I still think is probably in the case of Eggs). Also, (b) that was literally like page 2 of this thread. You were not in any meaningful danger of being lynched, so why were you concerned? Nav seemed much more natural to me, as he knew that his wagon wasn't going anywhere at that point. The fact that you're claiming you were worried about an actual case being built up around you at that point is way more indicative of scum than town to me.

(2) Saying it's your meta doesn't just give you a free pass. You used the same logic in the game you linked where you were town which you *checks notes* lost. So unless you feel like providing an actual refutation of why your logic here is good (despite leading you to a lost game where you didn't want to lynch SEs and then *checks notes again* you lost as both SEs were mafia) then you absolutely don't get a free pass.

(3) I also notice that you didn't even try to refute my point about how terrible the logic is behind active scum being better than lurky town.

Oh, and I think your meta overall also seems to be closer to your scum game than to your town game.

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@teacher you never answered my question about tone

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Eggs related:

VOTE: Voted

Where did this come from? If I'm right and voted is scum, then this could be used as evidence to defend yourself from scum charges tomorrow, i.e. it's a pre-emptive bus.

I'm still sheeping at this point for momentum (see you on Navneet, Irrelephant on Bob)

Okay, why no explanation though? Your other votes you provided some sort of logic or response. For instance, you got on Nav because I asked, you got on Bob because of something to do with another post (124 I think?) looking good for cinnamon.

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Cinnamon, who do you think is mafia? If you think Voted is looking scummy why don't you bring him to L-1?

@everyone else who do you think make the most likely mafia pair at this point? why?

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It’s not, but I kinda wish you hadn’t mentioned it, as I think that with votes being quite inactive he might have thought it was L-1

Although in fairness with the vote count coming right after it doesn’t make a difference

FL, why aren’t you voting anyone?

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Cinnamon, if it turns out to be voted is scum, which SE do you think is most likely to be his partner?

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Two questions irrelephant:

1) if teacher is one of your strongest townleans, and Eggs has voted for him not once but twice (albeit only once seriously) what bearing does that have on your reading of Eggs as town?

2) what made you revise me lower in your second list?

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Also, teacher, you still didn’t answer my question about your comment from 162. What’s weird about not finding tone very useful for finding scum in relation to my post 20?

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and the 4X repeated question menalque

<3

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What about voting town on D1 is scummy?
My gut and the fact I couldn’t remember any strong townreads from you, just lotsa scum cases

I guess the fact that I'm reading it like he wanted to vote teacher from the beginning and was capitalising on FL's "I think it's teacher and bob" to get back on that track. But basically I take your point.

Yeah, that's intentional, as far as I'm concerned if I'm fingering two people as my scum then it's implicit that I'm reading everyone else as town to at least a greater extent than them. I also think that by not mentioning who's floating just above those two scum reads means they're not as likely to be parsing what they're saying so closely, which might give something to work with if I decide they're the more likely scum and want to start applying pressure.

If people (i.e. multiple players) think that it would be more beneficial to the gamestate for me to post who I think is town and who I think might be scum instead of Eggs & Voted then I'll think about it.

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Who do you think is in the mafia team right now?

Sorry, missed this: still Eggs and Voted.

Aware that there's some evidence for others and arguments being made but at this point it's not enough to make me switch off these two.

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@everyone else who do you think make the most likely mafia pair at this point? why?

Associatives are weak sauce, especially pre-flips. In my roughly 20 games on site, I have of course tried to identify both scums day 1. As yet, I have failed every time.

Also, teacher, you still didn’t answer my question about your comment from 162. What’s weird about not finding tone very useful for finding scum in relation to my post 20?

Whats weird is that 20 was a pretty effortful fluff-post. If you dont find tone useful in a game, Im surprised youd put the effort in. It was playful and funny, but it also felt somewhat forced -- a heavy-handed humor if you will. Im surprised youd put in the effort if you didnt think it was meaningful, just to provide strangers a laugh. Just odd that you dont read tone, but you would play tone.

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Shit, that wasn't meant to happen

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This is what I wanted to do.

@everyone else who do you think make the most likely mafia pair at this point? why?

Associatives are weak sauce

I'm confused. What does this mean? I wanted to know who everyone thought were the two individually scummiest players, not necessarily in relation to each other but on their own merits.

Whats weird is that 20 was a pretty effortful fluff-post. If you dont find tone useful in a game, Im surprised youd put the effort in. It was playful and funny, but it also felt somewhat forced -- a heavy-handed humor if you will. Im surprised youd put in the effort if you didnt think it was meaningful, just to provide strangers a laugh. Just odd that you dont read tone, but you would play tone.

It wasn't very effortful, and I like playing around when nothing else is happening. My willingness to do so when I'm not busy compared to the fact that I'll radically shift in tone when I'm holiday (which y'all will notice next week) makes me lack confidence in tone as a guide for scumminess.

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Aside @elephant, this post does have a townread (of cinnamon) buried in it.

wait, it does?

snip for reference

2. Tone =/ activity. You being on holiday may shift your activity. But if it shifts the personality.... (other than from demon rum)

what I mean is that I'll be sans laptop and very limited on time, so rather than me wittering away in chit-chat like I am tonight, I will probably be a lot brusquer and more focused on fewer, but more important points (as I see them)

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So irrelephant, if you don't like voted for a D1 lynch then who do you like?

I also think focusing too much on if someone is mislynch bait or not isn't helpful? As someone mentioned earlier (I think it was teacher), if we're not sure if he's a mislynch or scum let's just lynch him. That way we know for sure and we get concrete information based on votes.

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I don't know if I think nav is scum or if he just forgot the game before anything happened, but either way I'd like to see what his replacement does before voting for that slot.

I'm not reading cinnamon as town so much as I'm reading voted and eggs as scum. But that's something I could maybe be talked into. I was looking at his ISO yesterday and thought it seemed bad from more or less #160. I also think he's been trying to pocket me super hard.

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Here's where my head's at right now: I wanna see if bob/bob!replacement and nav!replacement would be willing to get on board the voted wagon. If they're not, I could be talked into voting cinnamon with the understanding that if he flips town then we're lynching voted tomorrow, excepting that something happens in the night that suggests it's a bad lynch.

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I still think that Eggs is scummy: that "anyone wanna talk for a while" seemed like an attempt to derail things to me, and as I'm reading voted as scum it also potentially reads to me as trying to get people away from the wagon while it was at L-1.

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Okay, I guess here's where I'm at with reads if you think it's helpful (I think it will be less so once you read them)

Going from townier to scummier:

irrelephant, teacher

FL

bob

cinnamon, nav, eggs

voted

The thing is that I think that if we lynched cinnamon and he flipped scum then it throws off a lot. So I kinda wanna lynch him for that reason. But if we lynch voted and he flips scum then that'd leave me feeling good about an eggs/nav!slot Lynch D2.

I don't know if y'all want me to explain those reads or not, but I feel like they're fairly self-evident from what I've been saying throughout. I'll try to make time to do it if someone asks though.

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Menal, there’s scum in one of the SE’s.

As it stands I'm not seeing it. I'm listening though. Why?

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Menalque, could you explain why you think me townreading you in two posts is 'trying to pocket [you] super hard' whereas Irrelephant (for example) townreading you in really the same number of posts is not?

Yeah, sure can: irrelephant has townread me in #70, #118, possibly implicitly in #180, #208, #224, #253, #255, #260

However, he downgraded me in #260 and then pushed me in #263 and #335. I particularly liked the question about why I wasn't wavering on my scumread for eggs. I also think his general behaviour reads as town, e.g. the self-vote early on and the vote for teacher later on seemed to be to push the game forward and gather more information.

You on the other hand, townread me in #167, #174, and #209. I think the one that stood out to me was #209 which kinda felt like you were sheeping on the townread or wanted to really stress it because I think I was being fairly broadly townread at that point. Irrelephant's came in the context of agreeing about the voted wagon at the time, but yours was standalone. I'm also a lot less sure about your ISO. Lots of very short 1-2 line posts. I can decide what I think of the content though: as in, is it just efforts being made to look like analysis to make yourself seem town, or is it genuinely analysis but just in small doses.

Either way, I don't think I'm pushing you that hard right now, but I'm open to getting on you because I think lynching you would be one of the best options in terms of overall information, see #338.

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Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.

Another question for you Menalque - I notice that here, you state that you were comfortable with the SEs because they were all reading similarly and they had yet to call each other out. In your reads list, you also have all three SEs at the top of your town list. Has recent discussion from them done anything to change your opinion on this?

Here's the thing: there can only be 2 scum in this game. As of this point, I haven't seen anything from the SEs that makes me feel like they're scummier than the people at the bottom of my reads list. Maybe that's gonna change once we lynch and there's more information. Of the three, I feel like all of them have been advancing the game, most of all irrelephant, teacher too after he got active, and FL to a lesser extent but I do wanna hear about why he thinks one of the other SEs is definitely scum.

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Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, Cinnamon. We need a lynch. I’m still hoping that it will be voted, but unless some more people get on board, it’s looking like that might not happen. Although I’d still be happy to lynch eggs, I think that’s unlikely. So that leaves, in my eyes, you or nav!slot. I’m not sold on nav as I think he went inactive too early in the game to read him as scum.

You, on the other hand, I’ve been going back and forth on but I’ve always thought eggs and voted seemed more susp than you. If neither of those wagons is happening, then I’m okay with lynching you. I’m not omniscient so I could well be wrong about eggs and/or voted, they’re just my best picks based on the evidence so far as I see it.

If you do flip town, then that means we went the wrong direction D1 and indicates to me that we should go for the person who’s seemed scummiest so far (i.e. Voted). I also note that you ignored that I did say that if the nightkill revealed additional information then I’d be happy to go another direction D2.

The fact that you’re misrepresenting what I was saying and portraying a perfectly logical argument (we need a lynch, the two lunches I prefer don’t seem to be going right now, you’re the best lynch for being plausible scum and giving information) as illogical isn’t helping your case.

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Menalque is pinging me with so many lynches he’s happy to pursue

I mean, three. Two of which I’ve been pushing for ages, and a compromise one.

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I see a lot of posts and also at least one question for me. I’m packing tonight and moving tomorrow, so I may not post anything substantial until tomorrow late afternoon/evening. I’ll see if I can respond tonight though.

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I’m fine with it

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Okay, I’ve read through briefly but I’m still on mobile so this won’t be long:

- Baezu seems like town. Analysis of the game on its own merits rather than mimicking things. Creating a counter wagon to the Raya wagons seems towny, as I think seeing who went where will be useful post-flip.

- Voted is still a lynch I’d like to see happen. Seems scummy but hard to be sure, so I’d rather deal with that now then in lylo.

- Cinnamon isn’t a lynch for today. I’m still not totally sold, but I feel like he handled the pressure pretty well when I started pushing him? Defensive but not overly so. I’m not 100% sold on him, and I’m sorry but I don’t have the ime to go through his marathon meta, so for now I’d say town.

- Raya seems like scum. I have nothing new to add here, so this is pretty much sheeping, but as Voted doesn’t seem to be happening I think I’m okay with this.

- Teacher isn’t doing much but I’m not sold on that making him scum.

I know there are questions I still haven’t answered, sorry, RL. However, I love being a good hypocrite and I don’t think I ever saw FL explain why there must be scum in the SEs, which I’d very much like explained. Just gonna check vote count before I change vote.

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Okay, it’s good.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Raya

This is L-1.

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VOTE: cinnamon

What was the motivation behind this?

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I don’t like the teacher lynch for today. I think if it isn’t Raya then it’s likely voted who’s bussing and who is relying on being seen as mislynch bait to get away.

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Seriously, look at Voted’s ISO. There’s pretty much nothing there of substance especially the last several posts.

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I’d actually be fine getting back on a Voted wagon if there’s appetite, particularly from anyone on the teacher wagon.

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I’m not going irrelephant today.

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FL if you think there’s scum on the Raya wagon why do you think it’s not Voted?

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mod, could we get an up-to-date VC please

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Here’s the thing FL: I can imagine a world where you’re right about this. My issue is that I think you’re overthinking it and it’s really not that complicated. I think first scum is someone who looks actively scummy (raya/voted) and that the other will be discernible from VC analysis.

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I’m not willing to lynch a townread, or either of two null-to-town reads, over two active scumreads and the possibility that scum have manipulated the gamestate to end up on a compromise wagon D1.

[Menalque]

I’m listening just not persuaded. I will try to reread ISO’s later for your three preferences but for now I’m leaving my vote on Raya.

Also I was trying to say I think one of Raya/voted is scum, not that that’s the scumteam necessarily.

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Talk to me more about irrelephant and cinnamon.

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Why are they in that order for you? I think I know but I’d like you to spell it out for me.

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Okay I’m still not sold but you’re in my head enough that I don’t want this hammered before I read the ISOs for the lunches you’re pushing.

UNVOTE:

I’m aware of the deadline. I won’t leave it too close before putting a vote back on somewhere.

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As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

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Irrelephant, talk to me about FL here. Is this making sense to you? If he’s wrong, why?

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FL does the fact that both teacher and irrelephant are on the Raya wagon have any bearing on your analysis?

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intent to hammer in -12 hours

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Also, I’m not committing here (I still haven’t read his ISO but I do think you were making sense yesterday) but if I were to get on the teacher wagon I’m still not sure we have enough votes before deadline.

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I’m planning to read back through as much as I can (I’m about to fly from Bogota to Cali and i need to sort out a hostel when I arrive, so “as much as I can” may not be loads) before I choose a final vote. I think FL may have it right but I also think Raya seems scummy. I’m very unsure at this point.

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Precisely that — I looked and it’s about 10% more expensive a night so I’m planning to ask around upon arrival, I know which general area luckily and have a few places in mind.

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I know I intented but I saw the extension so consider that revoked. I still haven’t had time to read. I should V/LA but I’m saving that for when I go to the Pacific coast and won’t have signal for 48 hours.

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Here’s where my head’s at: I think it’s either Pine/FL or Teacher/irrelephant.

I’m leaning towards the latter because I’m more persuaded all in all by FL, and so that’s where I’m putting my vote.

VOTE: teacher

Incidentally, I think FL is either the best or the worst mafia player I’ve ever been in a game with, depending on how this turns out.

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I’m finding something confusing about your play here, Pine. Baezu isn’t happening. The wagons at this point are you or teacher. If you are VT then it’s in your interest as a town player to do whatever you can to avoid being lynched. But instead of putting your vote on the other existing wagon, leaving the possibility that someone might switch from your wagon to that one, you start a vanity. Why?

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By that do you mean that you’d like to explain Pine’s behaviour there?

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If so, go right ahead.

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The fact that all the wagons have been the same is fatal if it’s red.

I don’t know if I missed something or if I’m just tired so my brain isn’t working very well, but why is this fatal? (I’m taking it that you mean fatal for town?) I think if the flip is red then FL becomes the scummiest player for having put so much effort into creating an alternative wagon. If this flip is green (as I think it will be) then FL becomes pretty much conftown for me and I think we’re lynching you or irrelephant tomorrow.

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Sidebar: glad to hear you’re having a good holiday irrelephant.

Also, I’d very much like to see you 1v1 teacher in the time that’s left FL, but failing that an answer to my question (teacher’s expanded questions) would be appreciated. If you already did, I missed it — sorry.

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FL, why are you talking like you know there’s an investigative PR in the game?

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My point was more that seems an odd way to speak as it would imply that you’re a PR or scum. However, in either case you don’t seem the type to accidentally mention it. Hence the question.

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@baezu, why the NK on me N1? I appreciate that I was being townread, but I also wasn’t on you at all. Was it to throw suspicion on FL to get a mislynch D2?

@irrelephant, thanks! I’m looking forward to trying, but also a bit apprehensive

And, sadly, that schadd game does have an experience requirement, otherwise I’d be signing up

@all you were a really fun group to play with, and I hope to see you in games again!