Newbie 1934: Tundra (Game Over)

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: cinnamon i have been waiting for this game to start so I could tell you your name and profile picture are very cute

Thank you. I spent so long deciding on a profile pic

VOTE: menalque I'm not much of a fan of jam

[Cinnamon]

Not sure what to do with the complete lack of a response to my self vote
but uh
I guess your reactions are NAI since you all ignored it
:/

I thought it seemed a little scummy but wanted to wait and see what the SEs were reading from it, because it came so early on

I, as an SE, think it was very towny. I got a wagon going quick, which is always good!
Speaking of, wanna vote thenavneet? They're currently my strongest scumread

Forgive me if I'm missing something meta, but do you seriously have a specific read on thenavneet to make you think they're scummy?

[Cinnamon]

What's up with people in this game thinking everything is L-1

[Cinnamon]

I like the tone of his post, it reads towny to me. As for the vote, I don't have a read on it yet.

What do you (or anybody else) think?

[Cinnamon]

I'm not sure how Flavor plays but to me he's trying to look town, whereas Eggs seems more apathetic than anything. Both of them aren't giving off towny vibes but Flavor seems more scummy at the moment.

VOTE: Flavor

[Cinnamon]

I said that because I think acting apathetic can happen as either alignment but generally trying to look town is something a good town wouldn't do

[Cinnamon]

I don't like flavors behavior here either but again I haven't looked at how he previously plays

[Cinnamon]

I find it weird that a Bob/me team is coming up at all from these SEs, even if we both may individually look scummy to them. To me, I don't think anyone would as mafia agree so much with their mafia partner out of nowhere on a player that nobody else is reading as scummy at this point in the game, especially when they aren't being townread themselves (although bob was townread by some at this point).a

The reason why I caveated my read on flavor is that I am currently out and did not have time to provide a full read on him, but I wanted to post my gut reaction to their posts at the time. If teacher can vouch for this as his playstyle, then that weakens my read on him a lot.

[Cinnamon]

One thing that I would really like to hear about are reads on the SEs and their interactions so far. I really don't like that they are all thinking along the same lines, as they generally think that the mafia are between Bob, Voted, and myself and unless the team is exactly Bob/Voted they're wrong FMPOV. I'm not reading town from either Bob or Voted but I think it would be useful to see other possibilities entertained as it seems somewhat suspicious to me that three different people with experience in the game would come to very similar wrong conclusions if they are all town. What seems more likely in my eyes is that there is at least one mafia there who is doing a great job at misleading town.

[Cinnamon]

To clarify, my last few sentences are talking about if Bob/Voted or something very similar is not the mafia team.

[Cinnamon]

The more I read of Flavor's posts, the less scummy he seems. His thought process through his posts makes a lot of sense to me. At the moment, he's moved more to a weak town read for me. On the other hand, I don't see the same thing from Irrelephant. Starting with when he suggested a team of Bob/myself, there's been small inconsistencies in his logic (also see 138 where he forgot an earlier read he made on bob). This could just be a sign of not having full attention to this game, but I see it as more of him trying to push without putting much thought behind it. I don't like that. I wish teacher would speak more so I could get a better read from him, at the moment I don't have a read on them.

[Cinnamon]

I apologize on one part; when I looked through yesterday I thought I saw a townread on Bob from you, when that was somebody else.

You seemed inconsistent when you posted about pushing a team of Bob/myself when that was clearly quite unlikely, then shifting to talking about a Bob/Voted team despite having mentioned me specifically as acting scummy a number of times without specific mention of either of Bob or Voted. I thought that was weird.

[Cinnamon]

I don't see you as super scummy right now as my read is not that strong, which is why I didn't mention who I specifically thought would be mafia. I'm leaning towards you but I would like to see more contribution from teacher before I really push that. I think it would be really easy as mafia to act like teacher is doing now.

[Cinnamon]

UNVOTE:

[Cinnamon]

My posts have been mainly focused on the SEs because I think it would be useful to discuss the SEs - there hasn't been too much discussion over their play so far and they are posting a lot. In addition, some of the other players aren't really giving off reads right now.

For instance, I am not sure why there are quite a few town reads on thenavneet right now. From what they've said, I don't see anything that I would consider really townie. If I was to townread them it would really be me sheeping other players. I'd love to hear more from him.

I do like what Menalque is saying, his ideas make sense to me. I have a town read on him so far.

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Menalque

Navneet’snprobably town who got ran up, and scum is on that wagon.

Nav, Voted - Reading both similarly. In their favour they doesn't feel forced at all (except that jam sequence but gonna ignore that). Reading tone as town on a post by post basis. (It's only 24h in but) on the other hand ISOs are pretty much empty of actual content, though nav gets some credit for #68.

That is to say, I townread menalque/Eggs/navneet and don’t yet have reasons to scumlean FL or teacher, but unless the team is 2/3 of cinnamon/Bob/Voted I agree that SEs should get a closer look

[Cinnamon]

Eggs didn't put them in their townread section, but this part of their post feels like they're leaning towards thenavneet being town so I included it.

[Cinnamon]

I thought his case in 69 and his subsequent responses gave off town vibes to me.

[Cinnamon]

Sorry in case it's not clear that last message in 174 is in response to irrelephant, the rest is in response to teacher.

[Cinnamon]

@Voted what I meant by that is that trying to look town without doing things that are actually helpful for town is indicative of scum.

[Cinnamon]

Bob, I think what Flavor is trying to say is that he believes as town he acts towny enough that a two person wagon formed against him early like we did is generally not going to be two other town.

[Cinnamon]

I agree, Menalque seems really town here

[Cinnamon]

One thing I'm noting from Voted going through his games on this site is that his play in this game is significantly different from both previous town and scum games where he played much more actively and aggressively. It seems like, for whatever reason, he has chosen to play this game differently.

[Cinnamon]

Because of that, I wouldn't read too much into his change in play but I still don't like his mentality overall.

[Cinnamon]

Mislynch bait is just a term for a town player that would be easy to mislynch during the day (at least to my knowledge). I think Voted could definitely be in this category, but at the same time they are coming off pretty scummy and haven't contributed too much to town.

[Cinnamon]

If Voted is mafia, just judging from his reads list I think his teammate would be either Uncle Bob or, more likely, an SE. I think it was extremely weird that he didn't even post his reads list on the SE players until prompted to. This also continues off of my earlier thought that there is potentially an SE mafia.

[Cinnamon]

I suppose this day has gone by rather slowly, it might bring some more discussion to put Voted at L-1. I was waiting in the hopes that we could get some more discussion before really pushing this wagon but it doesn't look like that will be the case.

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Voted

THIS IS L-1.

[Cinnamon]

Wait a minute, I don't think that's L-1 either... we're really bad at that this game

[Cinnamon]

I could certainly see a Voted and Teacher team, as if it was either of the other two they would have been bussing pretty early on in the game, but I don't have a strong read on any of the SEs yet so I'm not confident on that. Who do you think is in the mafia team right now?

[Cinnamon]

While I agree with flavor in that there aren't that many newbs giving off scum vibes, I would like to hear both bob and thenavneet (or their replacement) really step up and give more to the discussion right now, I think that could also be a big reason why the discussion has become so difficult.

[Cinnamon]

I like the tone of his post, it reads towny to me. As for the vote, I don't have a read on it yet.

What do you (or anybody else) think?

What about Bob's post here read towny to you?

I thought that the straightforwardness and blunt nature of his post was towny

[Cinnamon]

Do you think it's a problem in 167 that he's going after SEs? Mistake or scum motivation? What do you think of the secondg half of that post?

The way you word this post, it sounds like you are suggesting that trying to discuss SEs can only be a mistake if I'm town. Could you elaborate on that? Why is shifting the discussion towards SEs a mistake?

[Cinnamon]

I mean I’m not just unvoting because i think he’s mislynch bait
He doesn’t show survivalism

I’m really struggling to nail down any strong scumreads
Navneet might be scum and I’d compromise there
Someone sell me on town!cinnamon because their participation in marathons showed me they are skilled as scum

I haven't really talked about this at all yet, but you've been constantly bringing up the idea that I seem scummy. Is there anything in particular that makes you feel this way? It seems really odd that you've been focusing on me so much with statements like this that aren't talking about what I've been doing in this game that is indicative of scum.

[Cinnamon]

Menalque, could you explain why you think me townreading you in two posts is 'trying to pocket [you] super hard' whereas Irrelephant (for example) townreading you in really the same number of posts is not?

[Cinnamon]

I struggle to see the logic behind that.

[Cinnamon]

I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.

[Cinnamon]

Irrelephant then Menalque pushed me there for reasons that don't make a large amount of sense to me, which I find pretty suspicious.

[Cinnamon]

Brief thoughts from mobile:

I don’t have much faith in tone as a way of reading things and I still think eggs has done the scummiest thing so far objectively. That said, I’m aware that he’s being mostly read as town who made a genuine slip. For now, I’m leaving my vote where it is, but I’ll change if (a) someone does something I think is objectively more scummy or (b) we start getting closer to the deadline and there’s still no appetite for an eggs wagon.

Regarding SEs: I’m encouraged by the fact they’re reading similarly. If there were only two, I’d be a lot more concerned that they were mafia backing each other. In the current situation I feel like the third would have called them.

If we’re not going for eggs then I’d be okay with getting on voted or cinnamon. I honestly don’t see why Bob is being scumread. I’ll try to post something longer tomorrow.

Another question for you Menalque - I notice that here, you state that you were comfortable with the SEs because they were all reading similarly and they had yet to call each other out. In your reads list, you also have all three SEs at the top of your town list. Has recent discussion from them done anything to change your opinion on this?

[Cinnamon]

Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

[Cinnamon]

Spoiler:

Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, Cinnamon. We need a lynch. I’m still hoping that it will be voted, but unless some more people get on board, it’s looking like that might not happen. Although I’d still be happy to lynch eggs, I think that’s unlikely. So that leaves, in my eyes, you or nav!slot. I’m not sold on nav as I think he went inactive too early in the game to read him as scum.

You, on the other hand, I’ve been going back and forth on but I’ve always thought eggs and voted seemed more susp than you. If neither of those wagons is happening, then I’m okay with lynching you. I’m not omniscient so I could well be wrong about eggs and/or voted, they’re just my best picks based on the evidence so far as I see it.

If you do flip town, then that means we went the wrong direction D1 and indicates to me that we should go for the person who’s seemed scummiest so far (i.e. Voted). I also note that you ignored that I did say that if the nightkill revealed additional information then I’d be happy to go another direction D2.

The fact that you’re misrepresenting what I was saying and portraying a perfectly logical argument (we need a lynch, the two lunches I prefer don’t seem to be going right now, you’re the best lynch for being plausible scum and giving information) as illogical isn’t helping your case.

The thing is that I think that if we lynched cinnamon and he flipped scum then it throws off a lot. So I kinda wanna lynch him for that reason. But if we lynch voted and he flips scum then that'd leave me feeling good about an eggs/nav!slot Lynch D2.

Either way, I don't think I'm pushing you that hard right now, but I'm open to getting on you because I think lynching you would be one of the best options in terms of overall information, see #338.

To me this literally states that your reason for lynching me is primarily for information. I don't believe I misrepresented anything you were saying.

Secondly, I ignored the part about power roles because I don't think Voted would be a good check even if there was a Neapolitan/Cop in the game. There's much more influential players and knowing their alignments would be much more useful. If we are talking about ignoring parts of the other person's post, I notice you did not respond at all to what I said about how players that look to be advancing the game are not necessarily doing it to the benefit of town.

[Cinnamon]

Can I heavy push this, please?

If you think it's something worth pushing, by all means you should do it.

[Cinnamon]

I'm not liking Cinnamon near the start. I find he's playing it a bit safe. Especially around 154. I don't like how after Irrelephant challenges what he said he still posts that he thinks irrelephant is scummy but then after seems to backpedal a bit by saying he's not that scummy though and removing his vote. Also some of his wording in 154 seemed safe to me. (Small inconsistencies instead of just inconsistencies, saying it could just be this but I see it more of this makes backpedaling after easier.)

I like eggs for town. Mainly because of 102 (But I like his posts in general). If he were scum he's really not attempting to keep his options open and even when he found some minor things he didn't like he wasn't actively trying to push it which reads as town to me.

Eggs and Cinnamon are my stronger town reads right now.

What made you change your mind about cinnamon?

I think I like menalque. His entrance while being fluff came off as natural. I don't like his push on eggs but he does make some good points that seem like they could come from a town scumhunting pov even though they are a bit of a stretch as someone mentioned. I do like his points made against voted though. His scumhunting appears to be natural to me.

Also related to above, I didn't feel Voted's defense to Menalque's push was sufficient. Self-meta especially is never a good argument in my opinion.

Irrelephant is a strong townlean.

I am also starting to like Eggs less, I previously had a null read on them but their last few posts have seemed somewhat scummy to me.

Can you elaborate on this?



As of now I would be most willing to lynch cinnamon or Voted but I would much rather vote on cinnamon for now.
VOTE: cinnamon

Frankly, I'm starting to become a bit frustrated that flimsy arguments like this have been pushed against me for the whole game. Irrelephant has been doing it this whole time and now other people are jumping in on it. I can't see how you see just purely early game tone as 'playing it a bit safe' - I've been posting this whole time with all my opinions out there and I think that this particular argument should not hold water. When I unvoted I was unvoting flavor, who I was townreading. I was not unvoting irrelephant. There was no backpedal there at all, just me pointing out something I thought was peculiar from irrelephant but also recognizing that it is a weak read.

[Cinnamon]

On another note, I really don't like this post from Raya. It seems to me that this push on me is mainly based on the opinions of others, rather than their own opinions due to the fact that their arguments are really weak and seem to be coming mainly from irrelephant's thoughts.

[Cinnamon]

Bob, I think what Flavor is trying to say is that he believes as town he acts towny enough that a two person wagon formed against him early like we did is generally not going to be two other town.

I can't decide why I dislike this post. I think just the way cinnamon intercedes on Flavor's behalf feels unnecessary. Like he's helping for the sake of helping? This might be confbias.

Irrelephant then Menalque pushed me there for reasons that don't make a large amount of sense to me, which I find pretty suspicious.

Do you understand menalque's push on you now, cinnamon?

Lynching for information is a terrible play (in this scenario). Saying you want to lynch me then Voted (since I'll flip town), completely ignoring the possibility that literally anybody else is mafia doesn't make any sense to me and I'm not sure why you're trying to push this. I really struggle to see why you aren't really considering the possibility that

the mafia team looks something like (Irrelephant, Eggs) and Irrelephant has been doing a great job of making sure the discussion is off of Eggs

or really any other number of possibilities here. Just because the SEs are talking doesn't mean they're advancing the game in a way that helps town.

Cinnamon what made you say the bolded?

1) this was in response to Bob asking if I had an explanation for Flavor's reasoning, I think that's why I interjected in this way.

2) I understand a bit of the reasoning now, I can see it coming from a town perspective. At first I thought the timing was really weird.

3) I wanted to provide an example of two players where one of them was active but could be covering for their partner to prove a point, I didn't mean that as in you are actually the team.

[Cinnamon]

Voted for me was a good wagon because I found him hard to read and thought his actions and posts were not really trying to help town. I'm still not sold on him, but I think it would be useful to switch my vote to naya because that intro along with the actions of thenavneet look quite suspicious and this wagon could provide a lot of useful information.

VOTE: Raya

[Cinnamon]

Voted for me was a good wagon because I found him hard to read and thought his actions and posts were not really trying to help town. I'm still not sold on him, but I think it would be useful to switch my vote to naya because that intro along with the actions of thenavneet look quite suspicious

and this wagon could provide a lot of useful information.

VOTE: Raya

For example? I could pretty much bus him. Sameone who TRed him could try to help him. Sameone who didn't mention him at all could be happy that he is not being pushed right now...

Sorry but I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that pressuring somebody who's slot has only contributed one post with real meaningful content in the past week will not provide useful information?

[Cinnamon]

I'm fine with it as well.

Flavor, I'm in agreement with Irrelephant here - I think I need a bit of an explanation. For the most part, it seems like you determined the scum team of Irrelephant and teacher by PoE; they looked scummier than the other players. Does this mean that you think the Raya slot is townie, or at the very least, less scummy than Irrelephant and teacher?

[Cinnamon]

Here's where I'm at right now - in the event that Raya is town, what Flavor is saying makes a ton of sense to me. This Raya wagon would be perfect for scum to jump on because Raya made themselves look so suspicious and I would be looking at a team of something like Irrelephant/teacher or Voted/teacher. This also agrees with my earlier gut read that something isn't quite right with all of the SEs.

[Cinnamon]

However, at the moment Raya has done nothing to show that they aren't scum, so I'm finding it hard to believe this line of logic.

[Cinnamon]

@cinnamon

Cinnamon I think you’re a very capable mafia player. Do you agree?

I think so? Most of my mafia experience comes from IRL gameplay however so things like tells and meta are different here; that would be one area where I feel less confident.

[Cinnamon]

I'm on mobile right now but I'll try to respond more to this later. I would also be comfortable with a teacher lynch if there ends up being more support for that than Raya.

[Cinnamon]

Wow this was a ton to catch up on. I'm pretty busy today so I likely won't be able to post again until tomorrow but I'll just say where my head is at. I still think that logically Raya is the most scummy slot right now, but I'm starting to feel that Irrelephant is the scummiest player currently. Their reads and pushes have been all over the place and their actions, while plentiful, don't seem to be done with the intent of helping town. One major example of this that I found quite weird was their strange interaction with my slot. They spend a ton of posts and time debating the alignment of my slot, then they finally do a full ISO analysis and come to the conclusion that I'm leaning town. However, this very quickly shifts to a scumread off of what seems to me to be a potential associative with Teacher. To me, this suggests that the way they are reading the game is meant more to appease town than to actually solve the game.

An example of this is

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

which is quite inconsistent with earlier logic that he agreed with.

Spoiler:

As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

Baezu and I both on Teacher as town, why would scum ever not push it if Teacher is town? They’d rather have a Raya lynch over teacher? One that would incriminate them much harder after a green flip?

If Baezu is scum going on TownTeacher, what’s the point in that?

Baezu-Raya scum team I guess could counteract that. Idk. If I’m super wrong, why is scum not taking advantage of me being wrong. I’d take the blunt of the damage for it.

Hey now I see inside your head
This post makes sense to me

If he agrees with this logic, then in a world where teacher is town and I am mafia, I am definitely pushing teacher as that would be a good mislynch on a strong player where I do not take much of the blame. In fact, he's called me out previously for my bold, early push on the SEs and I think he would be able to see that I would absolutely use that as a reason to push on teacher. And yet, despite that, he chooses to phrase his post in 621 in a way such that either teacher or I could be mafia which, while it looks right, goes against logic that he's previously agreed with. This suggests to me that his scumread on me right now is completely fabricated.

[Cinnamon]

Spoiler:

Wow this was a ton to catch up on. I'm pretty busy today so I likely won't be able to post again until tomorrow but I'll just say where my head is at. I still think that logically Raya is the most scummy slot right now, but I'm starting to feel that Irrelephant is the scummiest player currently. Their reads and pushes have been all over the place and their actions, while plentiful, don't seem to be done with the intent of helping town. One major example of this that I found quite weird was their strange interaction with my slot. They spend a ton of posts and time debating the alignment of my slot, then they finally do a full ISO analysis and come to the conclusion that I'm leaning town. However, this very quickly shifts to a scumread off of what seems to me to be a potential associative with Teacher. To me, this suggests that the way they are reading the game is meant more to appease town than to actually solve the game.

An example of this is

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

which is quite inconsistent with earlier logic that he agreed with.

As scum, Baezu sheeping me would have changed the game state more. Instead, it kind of halted it.

Scum does not give me more power in this situation, and the fact that I’m so individualistic thinking against the grain indicates that I’m at least partly right or scum would abuse it.

Explain the first part to me more, how does Baezu sheeping you lead to more of a change in the game state if she’s scum? How did her sheeping you halt it?

Second part, explain to me how scum abuse it if you’re not right?

This whole post was a bit unclear to me.

Baezu and I both on Teacher as town, why would scum ever not push it if Teacher is town? They’d rather have a Raya lynch over teacher? One that would incriminate them much harder after a green flip?

If Baezu is scum going on TownTeacher, what’s the point in that?

Baezu-Raya scum team I guess could counteract that. Idk. If I’m super wrong, why is scum not taking advantage of me being wrong. I’d take the blunt of the damage for it.

Hey now I see inside your head
This post makes sense to me

If he agrees with this logic, then in a world where teacher is town and I am mafia, I am definitely pushing teacher as that would be a good mislynch on a strong player where I do not take much of the blame. In fact, he's called me out previously for my bold, early push on the SEs and I think he would be able to see that I would absolutely use that as a reason to push on teacher. And yet, despite that, he chooses to phrase his post in 621 in a way such that either teacher or I could be mafia which, while it looks right, goes against logic that he's previously agreed with. This suggests to me that his scumread on me right now is completely fabricated.

So to summarize,
“Irrelephant is scum because:
-his logic is inconsistent
-he changed his mind a couple times
- ?”
These are towntells, by the way.

You feel overly concerned with my read on you, cinnamon. I don’t scumread you strongly in isolation, I just know that you’re a very capable scum player from your meta and your associatives leave open the possibility you’re the a likely scum *if I’m wrong* on my strongest scumread.
Also, can you summarize how exactly my logic contradicted? I’ve reread your post a few times and everything I said still makes sense to me tbh

I’ve stopped in to say I’m grateful for the time extension and
The main reason I’m townreading FL right now is that only RadiantCowbells is the only scumplayer who has ever made town!me feel like scumreading him would be a dangerous or scary proposition, which is how I’ve recently felt regarding FL. If he’s scum he’s done a great job of making me nervous to explore the idea out loud by setting up a situation where if I ever scumread him it’s proof that he’s right that im scum. This makes me townread him because that’s a very hard thing to do. and
In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum. Put another way, I think there’s always 1-2 scum in {me, FL, teacher, cinnamon} if Raya flips town. Put yet another way I have ruled out all scumteams that consist of two of {Menalque, Baezu, Eggs, Voted}, based purely on BoP’ing myself + Flavor Leaf. and
I still think the double replace out slot is scum

Kay we’re going to dinner see y’all tomorrow

This honestly makes no sense as a reason to town someone.

You’re right, I kinda didn’t finish the thought.
Only one scum player has ever made town!me feel afraid to scumread them
Multiple town players have made town!me feel afraid to scumread them, and town!me has done that to other players (I think).
Therefore, this is very town indicative for FL unless I can find a game in which scum!him has done this - I haven’t had time to look.

Neither of the reasons you posted were reasons why I thought you were scummy on their own. I think it's scummy because to me these inconsistencies over time show to me that your pushes aren't coming with a town thought process behind them.

The reason why I think your logic there is wrong is because, if I'm understanding correctly, the main reason I would be scumread at this moment is that in the case that teacher is mafia I am most likely to be their partner. I can understand that view, and I wouldn't scumread somebody for using that logic. However, what you suggested in your post 621 is that

In a world where Raya slot is town and FL is town I think there’s a 0% chance {teacher, cinnamon} has 0 scum.

The way you word this suggests that teacher and/or I are part of the scum team, but from the logic that you've previously agreed with it would be unlikely that I am mafia and not on a team with teacher, as I could have pushed on teacher using arguments that I've been pushing the entire day.

[Cinnamon]

Im making my wife mad because I’ve been staring at my phone for too long on vacation but this wagon is F’ing crap and it’s pissing me off
If Raya isnt scum Cinnamon probably is for always sheeping the scumread most strongly held by either of me/Flavor

The tone of what you are saying makes me want to believe that you're town but when you say stuff like this that just isn't true at all I have trouble doing so. The only times you could even think I was sheeping somebody else's read was on Voted earlier and maybe you now although the arguments that I brought were outside of Flavor's. I haven't been sheeping at all this game and I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.

[Cinnamon]

I really don't think this argument will bear much more fruit, I think there's a number of players who have been able to fly under the radar recently and unlike Flavor I have trouble reading that as townie. I would love to hear opinions on this whole discussion from players like Voted, Eggs, etc.

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Irrelephant

[Cinnamon]

Im making my wife mad because I’ve been staring at my phone for too long on vacation but this wagon is F’ing crap and it’s pissing me off
If Raya isnt scum Cinnamon probably is for always sheeping the scumread most strongly held by either of me/Flavor

That said, holy shit this post.

The wife thing (while probably legit) is classic appeal to emotion.

Then the waffling and keeping options open for whomever is weakest, and for a really shite reason. Oh gee willikers, a newish player is sheeping experienced players? How perfectly ordinary. Your job as a Town IC/SE would be to correct/explain/teach why that's not good play, not eviscerate them for it. Will definitely be reading Irrelephant with a critical eye.

To be fair to Irrelephant, part of his argument is that he thinks I am a 'capable mafia player' based on other games that I have played, so I think that he is not considering me to be a true newbie to the game.

[Cinnamon]

They are also not L-1. I would not hard claim at this moment.

[Cinnamon]

Teacher posted that before an extension was announced

[Cinnamon]

To be honest, I really didn't see it as a pressure trap at all. I just saw somebody PR-hunting.

[Cinnamon]

Yeah my gut reaction to your push their Voted was that I thought it seemed really out of place and scummy, but now I definitely see where you could be coming from

[Cinnamon]

Ironically what I previously said about Flavor and Eggs has much more application here I feel; the apathetic lack of posting coming from the Pine slot could be from town or scum (though I am slightly more inclined to believe it is coming from scum) whereas I think Irrelephant is really trying to look towny but is not saying things that make sense coming from a town mindset.

[Cinnamon]

Voted can you explain why you think Pine is scummier than Irrelephant right now (assuming that wasn't just part of your pressure)?

[Cinnamon]

Voted I've previously explained why I had this read on Irrelephant in 622 and 630, what I told you was just a recap of my opinion on him.

[Cinnamon]

For the record, I have thought for the past couple days that the Pine slot is the best lynch. I placed pressure on Irrelephant here to see how the Pine slot reacted in their reads, and I think that their push here on Irrelephant could quite possibly be mafia looking to try to survive a day given the current reads on their slot.

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Pine

This is L-1 for real. Do not hammer without stating intent.

[Cinnamon]

I really don't buy the 'oh that's hammer', especially coming from such an experienced player

[Cinnamon]

Yea I definitely misread that part, but I still think you are the best lynch for today. Who would you lynch if you had the choice?

[Cinnamon]

From your reads, it seems like Irrelephant was really the only one you were scum leaning

[Cinnamon]

I think Flavor is the type of player that I'm going to have an extremely difficult time reading without any information on him like voting patterns. That's why I've called him a weak town read because he does really seem like he's doing things that are good for the town but at the same time I think he's a strong player that could absolutely pull this off as mafia.

[Cinnamon]

teacher, in the event that the Pine slot is town who do you think is the most scummy?

[Cinnamon]

Teacher, your post suggests that regardless of the alignment of Raya it clears Voted. Was this intentional on your part?

[Cinnamon]

I like lynching Raya, because I think a green flip clears Voted pretty hardcore given that the same wagon was on him... ...On the other hand, a red flip I think essentially clears all of Voted, Cinnamon, Irrelephant, and me, creating an incredibly strong townblock to win the game.

[Cinnamon]

Playing out complex hypotheticals on Voted per 735:

IF Raya green, and IF Elephant is the red between Cinnamon and Elephant, then there is a slight chance Voted isnt clear because Elephant was bussing and the first one off. But thats two conditionals which I consider pretty unlikely atm.

I also see this as a possibility, but again yeah that would be based off of unlikely circumstances. The fact that you also saw this world makes me feel like you're less scummy than I previously thought.

[Cinnamon]

I also would like to apologize to cinnamon who I am currently townreading much more strongly than I was before; I think I was too excited by the idea of catching out scum!me (I won my first newbie game as scum) that I ignored some very town indicative moments for you

Your revelation that your scumread of me was a test for the replacement was extremely clever if scum - it untunneled me from you

I’m not certain you’re town but I am pretty confident Pine is scum and also pretty confident you’re not his partner

I was certainly getting this vibe earlier from you and I think this is a perfectly reasonable explanation if you are town. However, I do still have a slight scum lean on you since you were putting this out there so hard that you might have done it as mafia to use this exact argument now.

[Cinnamon]

I would also love to hear from Baezu. I agree with Eggs that there are teams Baezu is in that Pine would not be (Irrelephant + Baezu for example) and they have been quiet.

[Cinnamon]

However after we hear from Baezu we should make a final decision because I agree this day is unlikely to provide much more information

[Cinnamon]

If you think the Pine slot is an easy mislynch, Voted has also been brought up previously as mislynch bait in a comparable situation. Why do you think that Pine is more likely a mislynch than Voted?

[Cinnamon]

Eh I got most of what I wanted to hear from Baezu from their reads list. I really do think this day just needs to end.

[Cinnamon]

I'm happy for you as well Irrelephant - enjoy the rest of your vacation!

[Cinnamon]

I'm trying to look through the game for possible partners for Pine other than Flavor and Baezu and I'm finding it difficult. Irrelephant seems really unlikely given their interaction (specifically the weird one with Raya), Voted seems unlikely with their interaction with Pine, Eggs seemed possible at first but then he really tried to get the Pine lynch back on track so I think that's unlikely as well, teacher maybe but they did bring attention to the slot in things like 200 and they hammered so I see Baezu and Flavor as much more likely possibilities.

[Cinnamon]

I'm kind of inclined to think Flavor is townie here. However, if we were to do a mass claim, assuming there's one investigative with an inno (otherwise they would've claimed already) and the mafia has a roleblocker we will only have 3 confirmed towns for the rest of the game, so we aren't guaranteed victory. Unless the inno is on Flavor it may not be best to claim atm.

[Cinnamon]

There's also the world where there's only one PR and then we'd be left with two innos for the game

[Cinnamon]

A tracker or Neapolitan with a confirmed VT should absolutely claim here, it's a guaranteed win a lot of the time and a likely win the rest

[Cinnamon]

For the record, I think Flavor probably has to die today if there isn't an inno, even though I think he's acting townie. I look way more at voting patterns and actions than reads based on tone and Flavor's actions yesterday just make too much sense as mafia.

[Cinnamon]

I could definitely see teacher, they're third on my list after Flavor and Baezu.

[Cinnamon]

I also do not have an inno on flavor

[Cinnamon]

A tracker with a VT (meaning they didn't see that person visit anyone) is a guaranteed win.

[Cinnamon]

A Neapolitan with a VT is a win if there's a doctor and a 3 conf town, 3 unconf town 1 scum if there's a cop.

[Cinnamon]

If they got a result on a PR it's not an autowin though, so I don't think it's the best to claim that. It'll give 3 conf towns

[Cinnamon]

Yeah that's why I only said neopolitan and tracker because in those setups there's no chance of both a jailkeeper and a rber

[Cinnamon]

Spoiler: Role List

Player List:

thenavneet

Paladin159, DogDino -

Vanilla Townie

Cometbright

-

Vanilla Townie

ClearlyClarity

GreedyDemon -

Vanilla Townie

cpol

-

Town Jailkeeper

CapnCrunch

-

Mafia Goon

Datisi

hamedk1378 -

Vanilla Townie

RadiantCowbells

-

Mafia Roleblocker

Egix96

-

Town Doctor

NotMySpamAccount

-

Vanilla Townie

Setup: Column A & Row 2: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Spoiler: Night Actions

Night 1:

RadiantCowbells roleblocks no one
cpol jailkeeps ClearlyClarity - ClearlyClarity is protected and roleblocked
Egix96 protects cpol - cpol is protected
RadiantCowbells nightkills no one

Night 2:

RadiantCowbells roleblocks Datisi - Datisi is roleblocked
cpol jailkeeps ClearlyClarity - ClearlyClarity is protected and roleblocked
Egix96 protects cpol - cpol is protected
RadiantCowbells kills cpol - fails because cpol is protected

Night 3:

RadiantCowbells roleblocks Cometbright - Cometbright is roleblocked
cpol jailkeeps ClearlyClarity - ClearlyClarity is protected and roleblocked
Egix96 protects cpol - cpol is protected
RadiantCowbells kills cpol - fails because cpol is protected

Night 4:

RadiantCowbells roleblocks cpol - cpol is roleblocked
cpol jailkeeps RadiantCowbells - fails because cpol is roleblocked
Egix96 protects cpol - cpol is protected
RadiantCowbells kills Datisi - Datisi flips Vanilla Townie

Night 5:

RadiantCowbells roleblocks cpol - cpol is roleblocked
cpol jailkeeps RadiantCowbells - fails because cpol is roleblocked
RadiantCowbells kills Cometbright - Cometbright flips Vanilla Townie

Mod Thread
Game Thread
Mafia Thread
Dead Thread

The thread will now be opened for post game discussion. Thanks to everyone for playing!

[Cinnamon]

This is from Newbie 1929, RC won by doing exactly that, roleblocking and killing

[Cinnamon]

Again, tracker or neapolitan with VT should claim otherwise it would be more wise to wait.

[Cinnamon]

A tracker with a VT is an autowin already.

[Cinnamon]

A neapolitan with a VT is likely an autowin and at that point I'd agree with Flavor that its the correct decision because there is some value (even though I think it's less than just waiting) in claiming earlier and its made up for by the fact that waiting is a risk.

[Cinnamon]

I think what you're suggesting here Flavor will be bad in a number of setups that can only guarantee two confirmed townies who will die in the night like in A2, A3 and C1 but I suppose we can talk about this more post game.

[Cinnamon]

teacher if you could choose the three players to be lynched who would they be?

[Cinnamon]

I want to put Flavor on L-1 here but I'm just waiting for Voted to at least say something first.

[Cinnamon]

I kind of want to go for a non-Flavor lynch here, probably on Baezu. I scumread her more here. The only reason why I wouldn't is because Flavor has already claimed VT

[Cinnamon]

That being said, and not breaking my soft PR claim, which can even be fake, I would like to lynch either Eggs or Baezu today.
I would also like to encourage others to tell town who would visit if they were investigative PR. This allows town to not lose PR results if PR is night killed.

If I was a PR that could get an inno I would soft my inno in my opening post.

[Cinnamon]

Irrelephant what do you think about a Baezu lynch here?

[Cinnamon]

The only thing about Flavor is that in the event that he's mafia, this may be the only way to win for him - get a mislynch, kill an investigative PR, then go into final 5 with only 1/2 confirmed town and try to outplay.
Even though I see Flavor's behavior here as townie I don't think he would really be acting that much differently as mafia

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Flavor
yeah you're right, I should just go with my gut here. I'm probably just overthinking this.

[Cinnamon]

The optimal play right now is a full role claim from everyone

[Cinnamon]

There's no point in softing, we just need to know if we have 2 or 3 conf town. I think we've likely just won here but we'll see what everybody comes out as

[Cinnamon]

No literally everybody should hard claim right now, not just those roles because tomorrow, a doctor can fake claim as well

[Cinnamon]

You and teacher are both claiming investigative PR. If teacher isn't an investigative PR there was no reason to act like he did yesterday.

[Cinnamon]

I'll go but the order really doesn't matter: I'm VT

[Cinnamon]

I'd also like to add that Baezu is mechtown here so they should claim last

[Cinnamon]

Voted what is your role?

[Cinnamon]

I think at this point we just lynch Voted and teacher in any order and the game is over

[Cinnamon]

Eggs do you understand where I'm coming from on asking for a teacher/Voted lynch in any order

[Cinnamon]

teacher basically claimed PR yesterday with an inno on Baezu. Since there's only one mafia, either teacher is mafia or both teacher and baezu are town.

[Cinnamon]

Baezu what is your role?

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: teacher

I honestly don't see a world where this isn't the right vote

[Cinnamon]

But there's just no world where both you and teacher are town Voted. We have to lynch both of you. Also voted can you say which PR you are

[Cinnamon]

Side note - I can't believe we got both wagons on scum day 1 that was a pretty sick day 1 from us

[Cinnamon]

Baezu the thing is here Voted's play doesn't make much sense as they wouldn't want to claim a PR as Mafia. Teacher on the other hand likely softed tracker yesterday which would have helped him have a chance to win the game if he killed the PR during the night.

[Cinnamon]

Voted softed JK really hard yesterday though

[Cinnamon]

When you said who you were checking the next night, rather than the previous night. Normally you wouldn't say who you're checking the next night unless you are the JK

[Cinnamon]

Cool, I am Cop.
So, lets lynch Teacher. If he is jailor, lynch me, if not, lynch Baezu.
VOTE: Teacher

This is actually the play. If teacher is somehow VT here it's a Baezu lynch tomorrow. I highly doubt that however.

[Cinnamon]

If anybody (including teacher) would like to explain how this will not win the game I'd like to hear that. I came into today going for a teacher lynch regardless of who died last night though.

[Cinnamon]

Voted normally you say who you checked last night, as in 'If I was PR, I tracked cinnamon and they were innocent' or something along those lines. Saying who you are going to track doesn't matter if you die because there is no information on that person

[Cinnamon]

fwiw I'd like to allow teacher a chance to say something before someone hammers (it's L-1) but this is definitely the lynch for today

[Cinnamon]

I haven't visited FL. I started to heavy town read him. I don't want to claim right now, but

if

I were PR, I would probably track cimnamon.

This implies future tense. For this sentence to work in past tense it would be something like "I don't want to claim right now, but if I were PR, I would have tracked cinnamon" you need the past participle

[Cinnamon]

right but if he says anything but cop/jailor we know you're confirmed town so we just lynch teacher/Baezu.

If he says cop/jailor, we know it's either you or him since one of you are lying so we just lynch Voted/teacher.

[Cinnamon]

To be honest if somebody wanted to hammer teacher here it would be fine, if he's VT we lynch Baezu if he's cop/jailor we lynch Voted if he's mafia we win

[Cinnamon]

It can't be cop tracker because that would mean they've checked everybody and everyone is town

[Cinnamon]

so my logic still holds we lynch teacher Baezu any order and win since he claimed VT

[Cinnamon]

I thought for sure you were scum going for a tracker fake claim today @teacher

[Cinnamon]

VOTE: Baezu

[Cinnamon]

If this isn't scum, the lynch tomorrow is always teacher

[Cinnamon]

If this isn't scum, the lynch tomorrow is always teacher

[Cinnamon]

If anyone has thoughts on my play I'd appreciate it! Good game everyone