Role Call I (Game Over)

[Vecna]

Hey I wanted to ego post anyway and I was too lazy to log in Hydra so

Forget the roles for now and concentrate on who you think is town and scum

Id actually prefer people to talk about it before scum can discuss on optimal strategy for each person.

People speaking their mind early on what they like looks good to me in this context.

[Vecna]

I was in the shower right now and realized the first thought I had when entering this game is how and which PRs I want to distribute in the town rather than which PR I want to take for myself therefore I scumread anyone asking for a specific role for himself and townread everyone who suggested a PR onto someone else

Even though I like this post, scum will also be thinking along the lines of who they want to assign what role to, to optimize their odds of high impact lynches and nks.

[Vecna]

As a general guideline for how we go about this:

Id propose that people that usually get killed off early due to great gamesolving skills get the low impact or negative utility roles, to balance effectiveness of scum nightkills. No doubt thisll result in quite some discussion, which is exactly what the doctor ordered.

the main interesting ones that dont appear that interesting is what well do with the passives. Miller, VT, useless person, etc.

[Vecna]

what do you see, HH? Your explenation is more interesting than asking others to fill in the blanks.

[Vecna]

I was in the shower right now and realized the first thought I had when entering this game is how and which PRs I want to distribute in the town rather than which PR I want to take for myself therefore I scumread anyone asking for a specific role for himself and townread everyone who suggested a PR onto someone else

Even though I like this post, scum will also be thinking along the lines of who they want to assign what role to, to optimize their odds of high impact lynches and nks.

scum are more likely then town to try and manoeuver themselves into pole positions for certain roles, i think.
Having control of allocation of these roles are critical for scum, because town are likely to get at least some good shit out of it. Scum not so much

depending on the composition of the scum team, entirely. some'd play it agressive, some would hide and try to force towntells by picking roles that they think will appear towny.

[Vecna]

Also, Orihime, why are you asking for King if mech talk.bores you? is it the other head that enjoys that sort of stuff? Seems like a bit of a mismatch

[Vecna]

my prediction for this game when I saw the d1 roles was that scum would try to push IC on their most lynchable member.

[Vecna]

what makes you say that?

[Vecna]

regurgitate has such a negative connotation. Id written that post a bit before I got to read that.

So you dont find it awkward she wants the role with the most mechanical reaponsibility, while stating she finds mechanics boring in the very same post?

[Vecna]

I like this Saudade chap

[Vecna]

to be fair, youre not the easiest "to get"

[Vecna]

we should just turn this into a monarchy and make me the permanent king.

wed ptobably loose badly, but id have fun

[Vecna]

dictating gives us so little info though. letting people do as they please, and be held accountable for their choices later on sounds a lot more interesting to me.

More trickery and fancy play potential makes for a more interesting game.

Either way, I doubt well see many day abilities.

[Vecna]

Theres only 1 king in this table Vecna

thats ok, as long as i can be the puppet master, someone else can do the menial bureaucratic labour.

[Vecna]

having opinions, so scummy

[Vecna]

I'm getting at that a difficult to read player seems like the best fit for the IC role.

That would be RC (The SSS hydra) then. They're hard to lynch without a hard guilty, yet everybody wants to lynch them from the word go anyway.

If the RC hydra is scum, theyll probably try for a flawless victory anyway, which means day5 is too late of a sorting for the slot.

Bad allocation there id say.

[Vecna]

I have an off feeling about a50.
His posts really feel to me like hes trying to immitate his towngame, but it feels different from what im used, slightly less genuine

[Vecna]

like, 152 and 153 dont really feel like things hed nornally get irritated over?

159 isnt really something youd make a surprised post about?

Feels a bit like just grasping for stuff to comment on.

Ill see myself out

[Vecna]

I have an off feeling about a50.
His posts really feel to me like hes trying to immitate his towngame, but it feels different from what im used, slightly less genuine

like, 152 and 153 dont really feel like things hed nornally get irritated over?

159 isnt really something youd make a surprised post about?

Feels a bit like just grasping for stuff to comment on.

Ill see myself out

Found the slot that's gonna be my "pain in the neck" all game. The last game it was Alchemist, so I hope you'll have the same courtesy as him and apologize post game.

For now, carry on..

yikes

[Vecna]

I'm getting at that a difficult to read player seems like the best fit for the IC role.

That would be RC (The SSS hydra) then. They're hard to lynch without a hard guilty, yet everybody wants to lynch them from the word go anyway.

If the RC hydra is scum, theyll probably try for a flawless victory anyway, which means day5 is too late of a sorting for the slot.

Bad allocation there id say.

This is a terrible post. Why are you trying to appeal to fear like this? People talk up RC's reputation a lot but suggesting he can protect all of his partners with 100% reliability is flat absurd.

This is not me appealing to fear. Day5 is too late to sort a slot like RC, and if hes town scum will likely jave killes him by then. So IC is wasted there. You can disagree all you like, but the IC is much better used on a person more likely to survive that.

[Vecna]

Your win condition isn't to make momo happy it's to kill all the mafia.

If he's truly your top townread you should want him king.
I don't particularly want the gladiator ability to be on someone who's eager to use it. Gladiator days generate less information. It's only a half step away from governor where technically if you fire it very accurately it furthers the town wincon but overall you're subverting the protown mechanics of the game and it's negative utility really.

I like this post, and now I like pops

[Vecna]

Ew, preflip associatives. Why do people do those? Especially day 1?

No one seems to see Vecna the same way as me huh. I wonder if I would read him differently with a different avatar. I hate that tv show.

I think a lot of people read scummy intentions in my posts due to my avatar. Untill they get to know my playstyle, abd realize I often throw out half assed or weird reasoning just to see how people react. Most of the times theres sone thoight to it though, bit im just being to lazy to make the argument in a proper manner.

[Vecna]

@momo:

1- Why do you SR RC?
2- My point was "you can SR RC all you want, but getting him lynched w/o an explicit guilty is a pain in the arse", and I see no other investigative roles on the list top use on the slot.

Baezu's silence, the connections in between my other scum reads and him. Especially paired with his normal activity, both in games and around sites. It would be a really smart move for scum RC to declare that he's going to lurk day one.

Of my 3 SRs, I would probs lynch RC last. However, if any one of those two flip scum, the ties to RC become much stronger.

Either way, RC is very hard to read. The best use of the

inactive

role, imo, would be for someone like RC. If he is town, then great. He can help us scum hunt and the incentives to lynch a player like RC would be much lower if we make him inactive. That way town RC stays alive and helps us.

If he is scum, then he can't use any abilities.

Giving RC inactive is probably the easiest decision we have to make today.

This also works out perfectly because the HH hydra is hard to read. Day 5, we get a confirmed read. Just swapping those two would make your proposal better.

I might be weird, but I want to give you one of the worst abilities. Youre already so solidly town, and putting in the good work that youll never be lynched. Make scum kill a terrible ability when they want to get rid of you.

[Vecna]

All players are multiacting and both the NK and the rolestop are factional. Deactivating RC does very little. If Day2 has a watcher it maybe helps scum!RC's partner not misplay, lol. Oh, actually we have motion detector today there's that.

An inactive RC is weakened as last scum standing but I thought your stance was that you agree with Vecna about presuming a game with a lategame scum!RC is lost (which I still think is toxick and defeatist)

This was not the point I was trying to make. I love games with scum RC because theyre usually very challenging. It was just making a point about proper ability allocation.

So far im a bit sad that he doesnt come out to play.

[Vecna]

Oversoul - Finally oversoul. He opens by saying "these roles are lame." He also requested roles. On top of this, Oversoul had light buses on both RC and Sadude. Nothing substantial and nothing he needs to commit to, but they are there. This one for Sadude and this one for RC. He is right, RC is active, and he is directing this scum game.

I feel like you are incredibly off base with your reads this game if you're going to base the entire scumteam around me. You are too influenced by your own confirmation bias that I

must

be scum. Please read your own reasoning for me being scum.

"Oversoul thinks these roles are lame" Ok.
"Oversoul then ASKS for one of those lame roles" Ok.
"Therefore, Oversoul must be scum"

The only thing I can conclude from your scumread on me is that your preconceived notions about how scum would play this game are entirely wrong since I am your strongest scumread and I

know

you're wrong about that.

1. Objectively, these roles are lame. I was thinking we would get more basic things like 1-shot vigilante, tracker, roleblocker, macho cop, etc. Instead, we got a motion detector, several mechanic specific day abilities, and a slew of negative utility passive abilities. I came into this game thinking it was going to be role madness. Obviously that is not the case.
2. I chose a role that I felt like I could actually 1) have fun with, and 2) give benefit to the town. I think I am pretty good at needling people to better understand their motivations. I love neighborhoods, masons, etc. It is like a game within the game. I really do not see why scum would objectively want neighborhood when it has no bearing on actual night play (at least as far as Night 1 goes).

You seem to be holding me to

your

standard of play when it comes to these reads and what

you

would do. I very much doubt that you and I play similarly. The answers to my questions about Saudude and RC would be very helpful for me to ascertain their general motivations in this game. If Saudude has done this type of contradictory behavior, then it would help frame is motivations as not scummy. Additionally, if RC likes being scum and would try, then his lack of trying would help frame is motivation as not scummy.

Pedit:

No he is not. I thought Almost was Alchemist.

This feels like a very honest town-post to me.

[Vecna]

dictating gives us so little info though. letting people do as they please, and be held accountable for their choices later on sounds a lot more interesting to me.

More trickery and fancy play potential makes for a more interesting game.

Either way, I doubt well see many day abilities.

Exactly this

Because i dont feel like itttt
Tbh ive made some good content relatively you shouldnt worry

Hmm. I do not know what to make of this. At first I thought your open declaration of not trying was a CYA moment for future play:shifty: But now that you are trying, I am not so sure. What happened to change that attitude? To me it looks like you read the mechanics of the game and that somehow jumpstarted your interest.


I was town reading Vecna until 116.

Vecna has been extremely sensible so I don't get this

I will stand behind the fact that I think town gains more by dictating specifically who gets what then just leaving it to chance.

Also dictating to the king seems fine (Depending on who it is, and to a certain extent). I was talking more about other day abilities

[Vecna]

Here's a new strategy: Let's all in to games we know we won't play. Like, if you're on a holiday. or if you have exams, or you have a new job.. you're wedding is within a week.. etc.

You're an aussie but many people here treat American Independence day as a one shot, 1 day, 24 hour holiday. My parents planned dinner and a movie. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to /in for a game knowing you'll have a 1 day absence coming up.

If apthet is going to take Friday off from work and combine the weekend into a 5 day vacation I'm definitely with you, though, I missed Pokémon Ruby Mafia because I knew I had a 1 week vacation coming up.

Iconeum replaced into a game about a week before its wedding so we can policy lynch Iconeum here if you feel strongly about this

Fyi I myself try to avoid joining up beyond my capacity. My first game of forum mafia ever I had to replace into because I knew I had Boy Scouts events for the next month or so when I saw it in signups.

Youre very fluffy this game. Alas ive given up on the notion im good at reading you, but youre -very fluffy-

[Vecna]

Idk why Baezu isn't here.

I think Momo is scum trying to use our presence in the game to his advantage.
I also think that giving us the Day 5 IC removes any even slight motivation for scum to not kill us immediately.

Really, momo is capable of this level of play as scum? All I know from the slot as scum is heavy lurking. Am I this outdated? Enlighten me please.

[Vecna]

I'm willing to take the Day 5 IC and not get to play multiple day phases of the game if Momo is lynched today with us and MariaR hydra takes the universal backup.

How does that sound?

I do like the universal backup suggestion. The other two I really hate.

[Vecna]

You don't believe the things that you're pushing me for. You're either making stuff up because you want something that sounds better to push me for, or you're scum.

Look elsewhere, all his reasoning is completely believable from a town pov.

[Vecna]

People have NKed me over known cops before, and won the game because they made that decision.

I actually want the D5 role but I'd prefer you just give it to us as opposed to banking on someone dying for no reason.

I mean I don't care. I literally don't care. I want Momo dead, I'm just offering whatever safeties everyone else wants against me being scum.

The RC patented raw arrogance just push it through everyone else is stupid method isn't going to work.

Also RC, I genuinely enjoy playing with you. You are a great player and it's fun watching you play. I would never lynch you just because you're you. I want to lynch you because you're scum.

Such a satisfying read

[Vecna]

Can you stop arguing with your boyfriend, this is incredibly unproductive and if I'm understanding you you don't care what his alignment is, no one's going to lynch momo for scumreading you.

distancing?

[Vecna]

after all, if you think that I'm scum, why are you trying to convince me that your case on me holds water?

what point is there in that? Its the rest he has to convince

[Vecna]

almost50

you 'still' have not addressed my read on Momo, why?

I have, and long before this silly feud started.

momo is the towniest slot in the game

. He was when I said it and he still is.

What I'm trying to decide is YOUR alignment, because deciding that could be the difference between us winning or losing the game (as either alignment. If you're town and I SR you we lose. If you're scum and I TR you we lose. If you're scum and I SR you we may have a chance. If you're town and I TR you our chance is bigger).

So I think I'm not passing any official proposals until I've decided on your slot.

Im changing my mind

[Vecna]

Titus replaces Sothis Stefon Styx.

rofl. oh dear. what a deja vu

[Vecna]

Rc quits when it effects his win percentage but that's not role related

But the events leading up to it clearly mirror scum RC replace outs (see Access Point)

aye, theres other examples as well, I think my previous game

[Vecna]

VOTE: Against

Uh I am not in favor of basically being a hated townie in this setup. (I don't think Maria would mind actually but she's too busy packing to stop me. )

I also can't remember any time two people screaming at each other to death was actually alignment indicative of anything but two townies being stubborn as fuck. I wouldn't support a lynch on that slot at all. I see the hydra replaced out but unless RC has literally replaced out as scum about to be lynched before I'd sooner think he realized he shouldn't be playing.

twice, actually, in recent memory

[Vecna]

I think it's time we have an official proposal. I think this one is as good as any and I'll be voting for it. Even if it doesn't pass, we need the discussion.

Official Proposal

Timid = Hidden Happiness (Shadoweh/MariaR hydra)
Vanilla = Iconeum
Inventor = popsofctown
Day 5 Innocent Child = Oversoul
Miller = apthet
Neighbour = Nero Cain
1-shot Gladiator = momo
Day 3 King = Vecna
Night 1 Universal Backup = CheekyTeeky
Neighbour = Almost50
Odd-Night Motion Detector = Gamma Emerald
Macho = Lil Uzi Vert
Inactive = Saudade
Compulsive Quitter = Titus

I don't agree with CheekyTeeky being backup. I think Almost should get that role. I also still want the neighbor role, but if Nero is going to have the other one I will pass.

I agree with it at large, but also wouldnt mind a little finetuning here ans there

[Vecna]

Then maybe you should lobby for something else other than neighbor. I think the likelihood of Nero’s alignment will become more apparent and clear as he posts.

what would you give me?

Nero for inventor tbh

[Vecna]

Theme games aint competitive but a chill lounge so giving me the mute role is out of the question for me

Wut? pretty sure large games are by far the most competative on this forum. if not, ive been playing the wrong stuff.

[Vecna]

This right here is my biggest problem with you so far. You say that me giving Vecna a TR from my gut is a very towny thing to do, but in the same post you did the same thing. This seems like you're trying to draw a parallel and portray yourself as town. This is a red flag imo.

Let me explain more what I meant here. I think that someone who is going through the effort to convincingly construct a fake readslist with extensive evidence pulling from logic and meta and whatnot would naturally fall into the mindset of "my strongest reads should be the most justified by evidence." I think that going against that instinct requires scum to actively choose to make that decision. Possible but in my opinion seems unlikely. Having a gutread is not a town thing in itself. (I mean, theoretically they should be the easiest and most convenient for scum to fake.)

I think that contextually, the fact that your gutread also happened to be the strongest one makes me believe that your readslist is real: it seems to me like it doesn't necessarily follow the logic of the written word, if that makes sense. You made me believe that those reads were coming from your heart.

My thoughts on Vecna at the time of responding to your list really boiled down to one post that stuck out to me. Now, interestingly enough, he does happen to be a stronger townread for me too, but that's because of more recent posts.

Pretty sure aphet is town

[Vecna]

Scumteam:
Hidden Happiness (Shadoweh/MariaR hydra)
Titus (previously RC hydra)
Gamma Emerald?

Hard to read still;
Iconeum
Nero Cain
LUV (close to.prob town due to sincerity)
Cheekyteeky
A50 (close to town now, but has skills, I think)

prob town:
popsofctown
Oversoul
apthet
momo
Vecna
Saudade

Roughly how I feel now. Guess im alone on saudade but I feel most reasons for scumreads there....arent very good? maybe im wrong.

[Vecna]

I manage to make a lot more thoughtful posts from my mobile on african internet without complaining, so kindly refrain from trying to label my posting as "simpleposting".

[Vecna]

Vecna, do you have experience playing with Gamma Emerald?

Also, I do, but its been really hit or miss for me to read his alignment. I used to be able to catch him fairly easily as scum, but he changed up his game and it has become a lot harder for me to tell his alignment.

And when Titus replaces into a scum-slot it usually becomes apparent really quickly. Regardless, I agreed with most of Momo's posts on RC. Its been so long since I saw an RC towngame that I probably dont even remember what that looks like though.

[Vecna]

I really have no idea

[Vecna]

Yeah, im like doubting whether I want to ask for a weaker role. This game seems like itll be fun in the subsequent days for mechanics-people. Dying early would be sad.

[Vecna]

VOTE: FOR

Guess this allocation isnt that bad after going over it.

[Vecna]

Eh I agree with Nero somewhat, it's better to not provoke him as it imo becomes harder to read him if he gets riled up. That said I think the clearest method to read him I've come up with only works if he gets riled up.

dont do crack cocaine boys n girls

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

I don't really like the idea of vecna as king someone come up with a better plan

Thats the one thing you have against it? I think people are vastly overstating the.importance of the role.

The only important parameter is to not assign it to scum just in case they get caught by day three, and do a desperate action and fuck up that day and all its actions. assigning it to.me accomplishes that.

Besides, maybe itll increase the odds of scum nking me early. somehow, i feel that would please you

[Vecna]

Let’s start from scratch then.

Miller = Momo
Inactive = Saudade
Compulsive Quitter = Sothis Stefon Styx

Can everyone agree on this?

I have an objction to a part of this i wont go into

[Vecna]

I don't think I hammered or anything so why are we doing a hard reset. I just think that Vecna is king is ???

I WILL NOT BOW TO HIM!

Yeah, now i definitely want to pass this

[Vecna]

I am offering up a competing proposal so that we more evenly spread out PRs to prevent mostly easy nightkill choices

propose:
1-shot Gladiator: Cheeky
Inactive: Saudude
Day 5 Innocent Child: Hidden Happiness
Inventor: Momo
Day 3 King: Gamma Emerald
Macho: Oversoul
Miller: Vecna
Odd Night Motion Detector: Apthet
Neighbor: Nero Cain
Neighbor: Almost50
Timid: Iconeum
Night 1 Universal Backup: Popsofctown
Vanilla: Lil Uzi Vert
Compulsive Quitter: Titus

I think this spreads out the PRs away from my strongest town reads, but it still gives them a chance to impact the game. Momo being the exception. I think momo is probably dead tonight with an RC scumflip, but at least he would most likely be able to get off one invention if he did die. Left the neighborhood alone because apparently those two can read one another. If anyone wants anything explained let me know.

I really dislike this allocation. Giving king and IC to two very lynchable slots seems yuk. If Titus flips scum we dont wanna wait for day five to flip hh.

Also too susp of gamma to give him king, for the reasons i mentioned two posta earlier.

[Vecna]

Timid = Iconeum
Vanilla = CheekyTeeky
Macho = Saudade
Inactive = Vecna
Compulsive Quitter = Titus

abd then give everyone else w/e

Besides giving me inactive, this is exactly the type of allocation thatll make the nigjtkills for scum very easy to sail to endgame with a list of people that are most suspicious. and allow them to win

[Vecna]

Here are the roles you get to allocate for Day 1! Each role must be given to one player, and each player must get a role.

Day 1 Role Call

• 1-shot Gladiator
  (
  Day
  ): Once in the game, during the Day when no proposal is being voted on, you may challenge a player via bold post in the game thread ("
  Challenge:

  player
  "). All proposals that day are invalid unless they give the Compulsive Quitter role either to you, or to the player you challenged.
  
• Inactive
  (
  Passive
  ): For the rest of the game, proposals that give you a
  Day
  or
  Night
  action are invalid.
  
• Day 5 Innocent Child
  (
  Passive
  ): If you are Town-aligned, your alignment will be publicly revealed at the start of Day 5.
  
• Inventor
  (
  Night
  ): Once each on four Nights in the game, you may grant a new night action to a player in the game (other than yourself). Each of these actions may be given once:
  
  Spoiler: Inventions

  • 1-shot Bodyguard
    (
    Night
    ,
    Protective
    ): Once in the game at Night, choose a player other than yourself. Any
    Eliminate
    actions aimed at that player will be deflected onto you.
    
  • 1-shot Friendly Neighbour
    (
    Night
    ): Once in the game at Night, choose a player other than yourself. If you are Town-aligned, the moderator will confirm that fact to the chosen player. (If you use this ability when not Town-aligned, it acts as a Visitor, i.e. it targets that player but has no further effect.)
    
  • 1-shot Activated Hero
    (
    Night
    ): Once in the game at Night, you may activate this role. On the following Day only, if an accepted proposal would give you the Compulsive Quitter role, you swap places in that proposal with the player who proposed it (so they end up with the Compulsive Quitter role, and you take the role they gave themself).
    
  • 1-shot Announcing Mailman
    (
    Night
    ): Once in the game at Night, you may send the moderator a message, who will forward it on to a player of your choice. The message will be marked as having come from a Mailman, but the moderator will not confirm who sent it (until after the game).
• Day 3 King
  (
  Passive
  ): On Day 3, no other player will be able to propose; as the last remaining player with a proposal, your proposal will therefore be accepted automatically, without voting.
  
• Macho
  (
  Passive
  ):
  Protective
  roles will fail when used on you.
  
• Miller
  (
  Passive
  ): All other roles will interact with you as though you were Scum, regardless of your actual alignment.
  
• Odd-Night Motion Detector
  (
  Night
  ): Once on each odd-numbered night, you may choose a player, and will learn whether or not there was motion involving that player that night. A player has motion involving them if they use a
  Night
  action, or if a
  Night
  action is used on them, or both.
  
• Neighbour
  (
  Passive
  ): You will gain access to read and post in the Neighbour private topic, and may use it to discuss the game with the other players there.
  
• Neighbour
  (
  Passive
  ): You will gain access to read and post in the Neighbour private topic, and may use it to discuss the game with the other players there.
  
• Timid
  (
  Passive
  ): You cannot make proposals.
  
• Night 1 Universal Backup
  (
  Passive
  ): At the end of Night 1, you will automatically gain the role of the player who was eliminated Night 1.
  
• Vanilla
  (
  Passive
  ): This role doesn't do anything.
  
• Compulsive Quitter
  (
  Twilight
  ): You immediately leave the game and are eliminated.

Game status

There is no active proposal.
There have been no previous proposals.

Proposal available

(14): Hidden Happiness, Iconeum, popsofctown, Oversoul, apthet, Nero Cain, momo, Vecna, CheekyTeeky, Almost50. Gamma Emerald. Lil Uzi Vert, Saudade, Sothis Stefon Styx

Proposal unavailable

(0):

nobody

To end day with a particular role assignment, one player must propose it, and 8 players vote for it.
Deadline is currently 00:05 UTC on Friday 12 July (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2019-07-12 00:05:00)

). It will be extended when a proposal is made.

Gladiator - Gamma Emerald
Inactive - Saudude
D5 IC - Almost50
Inventor - Iconeum
D3 King - popsofctown
Macho - CheekyTeeky
Miller - Vecna
Odd Night Motion Detector - apthet
Neighbor - Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor- momo
Timid - Hidden Happiness
N1 Universal Backup - Nero Cain
Vanilla - Oversoul
Compulsive Quitter - Titus

I could live with this as well. not sure if its better than what we have, but its fine. it meets the parameters i think

[Vecna]

does he count replace-outs as defeats?
I count them as defeats.

he definately lost a few games as scum in 2018

[Vecna]

Should we not be giving IC to lynchbaiit? Also, I remember Maria R being p good although Shadow and I did tunnel the fuck out of each other in mafia camp.

Sure, but we have a pretty good line of analysis into maria/HH.

Slots like iconeum, sadade - very lynchable for most, hard to read correctly due to playstyle. these two would be my top candidates for IC. Maybe even LUV, but I feel i have a flawless record reading him.

[Vecna]

Eh I agree with Nero somewhat, it's better to not provoke him as it imo becomes harder to read him if he gets riled up. That said I think the clearest method to read him I've come up with only works if he gets riled up.

dont do crack cocaine boys n girls

Ex-fucking-scuse me?

What, that upset you?

[Vecna]

A50 why aren't you commenting on something more useful?

Town.

yeah, id like some explenation here

[Vecna]

Yes, as would we all. Pretty cheaky response there

[Vecna]

As in, if youre town thinking were all making a mistake here, why wouldnt you want to explain that statement?

The way its coming across now is if you just looked for reasons to give a weak TR to the slot, but after seeing the replace out you understand the slot is likely to die anyway.

Ill make a mental note of this unsatisfactory conclusion.

[Vecna]

LUV, what do you make of this whole RC situation? You think this couldve come from a towb RC?

[Vecna]

you feel my stance isnt clear yet from my reactions on the momo vs RC dialogue?

[Vecna]

not like its a new thought momo, but yeah it does look like 3/4 in RC/Hh/CT/GE

[Vecna]

not like its a new thought momo, but yeah it does look like 3/4 in RC/Hh/CT/GE

That's why I added at the end of my post.

Thats ok, im actually totally fine with you carrying us. Were probably being way overconfident and totally wrong but ill worry about that if RC flips town

[Vecna]

I feel like Day5 IC is almost wasted on... almost.

I actually like it on him

[Vecna]

Oversoul van be my ride or die homey

The frustration from the HH slot also feels somewhat genuine

[Vecna]

not like its a new thought momo, but yeah it does look like 3/4 in RC/Hh/CT/GE

Ok, keep hating me for no fucking reason lol

I actually am running with the theory scum like a Vecna king because his impulsive town feuding nature

Nothing like a good feud.

So what is it, am I scum with Momo or im being kingmade by scum because im harmfull to town?

[Vecna]

HH is scum, as long as RC is scum.

If RC is town so is HH. (But doubt).

not sure i agree with the last

[Vecna]

Eh I agree with Nero somewhat, it's better to not provoke him as it imo becomes harder to read him if he gets riled up. That said I think the clearest method to read him I've come up with only works if he gets riled up.

dont do crack cocaine boys n girls

Ex-fucking-scuse me?

What, that upset you?

Yes, I feel you're discrediting my statement with a drug allegation which is fucking disgusting

Gemma's town. I had an instance with ETL like this.

Can you explain this? ETL the player?

Yeah. Years ago I played a game with ETL. I was correct on an early read. She accused me of being on coke as I was helping someone get off weed. Gamma and Vecna's tone matches that fight.

Or maybe gamma stated that you cant read nero when hes upset.....but in his experience the best way to read him is to upset him.

When people make funny statements like this, people might feel inclined to poke fun at it. Ofcourse, sometimes people feel the need to get overly dramatic about this.

[Vecna]

I read the post as a poor quality that inoffensive joke suggesting that Gamma Emerald was planning to tempt Nero with crack so that he becomes readable after partaking, rather than saying "499 is incoherent and GE must have been on crack when he wrote it". I thought maybe rile has different slang meanings in ... Africa

499 is such a coherent post it just made even less sense to read it the other way

Im here just on vacation/honeymoon

[Vecna]

@HH Who is !Maria in your hydra?

I think OS can be weak town and pops might be scum wanting to have Gamma and Vecna fight.

That's literally the opposite of what I posted?
And I'm a little offended you'd think I'd employ that as scumplay? That's gross?

It's gross to use the "genuine frustration" to shade HH here.

Ill use genuine confusion to shade this post, because it dont make no sense.

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

Making me give up king, you bastards

[Vecna]

I like apthet

[Vecna]

as opposed to your other reads that you -are- 100% certain on after your replace-in without actually reading up?

yes, this post was meant to have that certain tone you might be spotting.

[Vecna]

I really liked A50 or Nero for IC tbh. such hard to read slots

[Vecna]

also, can you walk me through your strong townread on pops? Ive forgotten why I wasnt susp of that slot.

[Vecna]

Proposal 2 - Proposed by Vecna

Gladiator - Almost50
Inactive - Saudude
D5 IC - Nero Cain
Inventor - Iconeum
D3 King - Momo
Macho - CheekyTeeky
Miller - Vecna
Odd Night Motion Detector - Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor - Popsofctown
Neighbor - Gamma Emerald
Timid - Hidden Happiness
N1 Universal Backup - Aphtet
Vanilla - Oversoul
Compulsive Quitter - Titus

[Vecna]

some explenations:
Momo as king: I believe the role is not strong on town, only on scum. Ive put king and backup on strong townreads to ensure no suspicion on either of the slots, regardless if whether king, miller or another suspicious role gets sent there via nk. IF momo gets nkd on n1 we keep all our strong prs of today alive.

Ive put pops and GE as neighbours. they both love talking, and it allowed me to allocate their previous assignment (imo) better. also allows us to give them strobg roles tomorrow if needed, so they can coomunicate on the uses.

Ive put nero as day five IC. hes a strong asset as town if we do listen to him, and we at keast have a failsafe in case hes not. It might make him a bit of a NK magnet, but that will also help us sort the slot.

I personally think this allocation achieves what we wanted, mostly, while still keeping strong town controll on certain vital roles, while.making optimal nks hard, and giving us plenty good options for allocating tomorrows roles to townread players without doubling up.

[Vecna]

Proposal 2 - Proposed by Vecna

Gladiator - Almost50
Inactive - Saudude
D5 IC - Nero Cain
Inventor - Iconeum
D3 King - Momo
Macho - CheekyTeeky
Miller - Vecna
Odd Night Motion Detector - Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor - Popsofctown
Neighbor - Gamma Emerald
Timid - Hidden Happiness
N1 Universal Backup - Aphtet
Vanilla - Oversoul
Compulsive Quitter - Titus

Make yourself inventor. Then give a late game powerhouse ic.

Nero's dead by day 5.

Nero is a late game powerhouse, but hes always hard to sort, and loves to ruffle feathers. This enables that playstyle. If scum kill him before that, it sorts his slot at least. having IC on a slot we dont want to lynch early anyway is good imo.

I dont want inventor, since I like living.

[Vecna]

also, in case it wasnt obvious yet: giving out the hero item as inventor is a scumclaim

[Vecna]

guys, I hate to say it, but im starting to get town feelings from the titus slot here.

[Vecna]

are you really fine with vecna giving himself miller?

He's town

i get that, hell my second proposal gave him the role

that doens't mean it's a good look

and since he is town, he should be getting inventor...

You were literally asking me to propose it that way. I took your proposal and improved a few parts.

Ive not been pushing for anything myself. fact remains, pretty much everyone correctly townreads me and I can handle the shade.

[Vecna]

l

To quote pops, i'm not willing to let good be the enemy of perfect

we still have a lot of time, new proposals can extend the deadline

how about we just reject this one, and have you propose one that gives vecna inventor and iconeum miller

that proposal is better, and town would have nothing to lose

plus a longer day gives us more information

Iconeum is actually in the scumpool though, which is the exact reason he is getting inventor.

Im fine people stating that this proposal can have thibgs improved, but this proposed change/swap is garbage and will just result in me being n1d

[Vecna]

and then you had to go and say regardless of your alignment

The way Titus phrased some of her posts suggest she might be town here, and in this case RC was just being RC.

In short, I am not as sure Titus flips scum here anymore, but her play isn't gonna get us anywhere closer to win if she is Town.

And who is us here? The only thing you've done since you got back is needle me over not reading.

Common sense says a miller friendly neighbor can exist. Why would anyone suspect the mod of rewriting the the rules? A simple hey that's not how it works and hunting would be fine but you have to look like you're doing something.

Do something other than bitch about me scumfuck.

This is not how scum titus replaces in in my experience. this is argumentative, irritated town titus.

[Vecna]

and then you had to go and say regardless of your alignment

The way Titus phrased some of her posts suggest she might be town here, and in this case RC was just being RC.

In short, I am not as sure Titus flips scum here anymore, but her play isn't gonna get us anywhere closer to win if she is Town.

And who is us here? The only thing you've done since you got back is needle me over not reading.

Common sense says a miller friendly neighbor can exist. Why would anyone suspect the mod of rewriting the the rules? A simple hey that's not how it works and hunting would be fine but you have to look like you're doing something.

Do something other than bitch about me scumfuck.

and she's scum

why do people have to get so emotional when playing mafia

someone scumreading you isn't a fucking personal attack

this wasnt over being scumread though. This was because A50 was calling her bad town.

[Vecna]

I don't really like the idea of giving scummy players a miller role b/c assuming we get a cop @ some point they can just use but "im a miller" as an excuse for why they invested as red. Miller should go to someone that's town and a that's being heavily town read by the majority.

And for that reason, I'm out.

VOTE: against

That is exactly what I am darling. So what do you think about yourself in the IC role, becayse thats the change id expect you to comment on.

The miller allocation has been there for a while.

[Vecna]

guys, I hate to say it, but im starting to get town feelings from the titus slot here.

I hate that out of all of the people you said this. Does scum Vecna really town a read around at this point? Maybe for credit if he does nothing to stop the Titus lynch but it makes me second guess my scumread on this slot since Titus is obv town.

guys, I hate to say it, but im starting to get town feelings from the titus slot here.

i guess

but you have to consider the context this read is coming in

because she claims to have not read the game, she hasn't addressed the valid scumreads on her slot

she's pushing forward trying to act town, but i just don't feel it

completely ignoring the fact that the majority of the game wants you lynched isn't a good look

like i'm known for having an idgaf attitude about wagons as town, but as town in this game, if all the serious proposals had me getting lynched, i'd address the issue

Just because everyone was so hung up on RC doesn't mean we should just dismiss Titus. You don't try to 'act' town what kind of logic is this? Are you getting towny vibes from her and just dismissing it as acting or? This was the same thing with the CheekyTeeky catch up. 'These look town but....' Let me explainsomething: Everything in the game can be towny or scummy period. It's about the actions itself and the player that are important and Titus actions are blatantly obv town. The unawareness of her lynch. The way she's acting. All blatantly town.

are you really fine with vecna giving himself miller?

He's town

Hard nope.

Are you that heavily townreading Iconeum?

Are you not? Because you should be. If you're not why

And this post also makes me think HH is town.

Either im being played properly by hh and titus (whic is possible) or theres some major powerwolfing goin on up in here.

[Vecna]

1-shot Gladiator: Oversoul
Inactive: Gamma Emerald (following partner on this one)
Day 5 Innocent Child: Hidden Happiness (grumble)
Inventor: Iconeum
Day 3 King: popsofctown
Macho: Nero Cain
Miller: momo
Odd-Night Motion Detector: Luv (But we leash him to where we want him)
Vecna:Neighbor
Saudade: Neighbor
apthet: Timid
CheekyTeeky:Night 1 Universal Backup
Titus:Vanilla
Compulsive Quitter: Almost50

Spicy. and not at all terrible. Better even than some.of the other stuff proposed to counter mine.

[Vecna]

I do not feel like he has done any real scumhunting this game. He called you out for wanting King, among other roles, and then when momo did it he looked the other way. I feel like he is purposefully trying to keep a low profile in a game with a lot of head strong players.

Also, your proposal is so far out of left field I don't even know what to do with it. For the record, I would never use my gladiator ability (unless I had a guilty).

I think the way ice has played the game has been fine compared to other players. I know a fact no one would ever say yes to my proposal but I felt if I threw it out there it'd draw some attention to my slot so people would stop ignoring me

Town post

[Vecna]

Odd-Night Motion Detector: Luv (But we leash him to where we want him)

Best idea I've seen in all thread! Let's tell scum which of their members not to send to do the kill, or who is best to target with the rolestop, REALLY great idea!

Hmmmm

[Vecna]

VOTE: for

I have a bad feeling about this

[Vecna]

I put forth the following as proposal

Gladiator - Hidden Happiness
Inactive - Saudude
D5 IC - Gamma Emerald
Inventor - popsofctown
D3 King - momo
Macho - CheekyTeeky
Miller - Nero Cain
Odd Night Motion Detector - Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor - Oversoul
Neighbor- almost50
Timid - Iconeum
N1 Universal Backup - Vecna
Vanilla - apthet
Compulsive Quitter - Titus


VOTE: For

Bolded green for thoughts this time, because I really like the way this color looks (don't judge me).

Mostly I'm in support of this proposal. Voting for this rn because a lot of ppl have used theirs. Don't know if we'll get a better one.

Gladiator HH is fine, as long as we're sticking with pops' idea that using the gladiator 1-shot is a scum claim. If you can't bring town to a consensus, you're doing it wrong. Don't force their hand.

As I said before, neighbor would have been more fun but I agree that a50 and oversoul will use it better than me. Both of you are townleans. On top of working together, your main goal should be reading each other.

Miller Nero is an interesting choice, given that I think he's town, but not 100% sure. That said, strongest town reads have more important roles. In late game, just because he's the miller, doesn't mean that he shouldn't be lynched. Should keep on reading him as normal.

Motion detector LUV is nice. He's town. LUV, I'm reading into your other ideas and secrecy as town who is playing his cards to his chest. I'm assuming you know who you need to track in case RC flips town.

Titus lynch was a given.

If RC flips town and a high scum utility PR dies, Vecna probs scum.

If RC flips scum, Vecna Town.

If RC flips town and a low or negative utility PR dies, WIFOM aspects must be considered and reads must be made.

Overall, this is a good proposal. Combined with the flip, it should give the town a lot of information. We just need to play it right. In case I die before I get to make another post, this is goodbye. If we follow through with this proposal and town plays smart, we should win regardless of the flip.

with this current proposal we still have way too many high value nk targets.

We achieved the exact opposite of what we set out to do.

[Vecna]

An Old Post Game Post From Gamma

Scum can experience genuine frustration. Gamma said that in this thread, and he has an old post backing it up. It sounded incredibly genuine when he said it, but I wasn't sure. It was one line repeated over and over. Now, we see in the post game of a game in which he was

town

, he made a similar post.

Gamma is town.

using old logic you used as town before does not mean you suddenly forget that wisdom when your role pm turns red.

bad post, sorry.

[Vecna]

I WANT YOU TO LIVE YOU DUMB DONKEY

ainy nobody killing GE early

[Vecna]

Vecna ur not getting naked day 1. I am. That's why scum are after me. You're an ifiot tunneling gama.

No offense lu but ur Gamma read is shit.

take some water and realize im not tunneling that slot whatsoever.

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

bad proposal mateys

[Vecna]

I put forth the following as proposal

Gladiator - Hidden Happiness
Inactive - Saudude
D5 IC - Gamma Emerald
Inventor - popsofctown
D3 King - momo
Macho - CheekyTeeky
Miller - Nero Cain
Odd Night Motion Detector - Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor - Oversoul
Neighbor- almost50
Timid - Iconeum
N1 Universal Backup - Vecna
Vanilla - apthet
Compulsive Quitter - Titus


VOTE: For

Bolded green for thoughts this time, because I really like the way this color looks (don't judge me).

Mostly I'm in support of this proposal. Voting for this rn because a lot of ppl have used theirs. Don't know if we'll get a better one.

Gladiator HH is fine, as long as we're sticking with pops' idea that using the gladiator 1-shot is a scum claim. If you can't bring town to a consensus, you're doing it wrong. Don't force their hand.

As I said before, neighbor would have been more fun but I agree that a50 and oversoul will use it better than me. Both of you are townleans. On top of working together, your main goal should be reading each other.

Miller Nero is an interesting choice, given that I think he's town, but not 100% sure. That said, strongest town reads have more important roles. In late game, just because he's the miller, doesn't mean that he shouldn't be lynched. Should keep on reading him as normal.

Motion detector LUV is nice. He's town. LUV, I'm reading into your other ideas and secrecy as town who is playing his cards to his chest. I'm assuming you know who you need to track in case RC flips town.

Titus lynch was a given.

If RC flips town and a high scum utility PR dies, Vecna probs scum.

If RC flips scum, Vecna Town.

If RC flips town and a low or negative utility PR dies, WIFOM aspects must be considered and reads must be made.

Overall, this is a good proposal. Combined with the flip, it should give the town a lot of information. We just need to play it right. In case I die before I get to make another post, this is goodbye. If we follow through with this proposal and town plays smart, we should win regardless of the flip.

with this current proposal we still have way too many high value nk targets.

We achieved the exact opposite of what we set out to do.

As long as UB is town, high value NK targets shouldn’t matter. We might not have a backup in future days and should use this opportunity to get the strongest TRs solid roles.

N1 kill UB, proceed to kill all other valuable targets n2 and onward?

For the sake of not being overconfident, im just gonna assume scum wont be complete tools aboit their nk

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

bad proposal mateys

ok but why? Also, nothing to say about 912?

As stated, hardly anyone is suspicious of me, and if the worst argument against giving you IC is "ill jus tget shot n4" then im not all that bothered? four days of play is a lot in a 14 player setup, abd the game could be over already before.

[Vecna]

Its a matter of poe and gut. Titus and HH are both potentislly town here.

My current scumteam is A50 and Nero Cain

[Vecna]

anyways, maybe im wrong. well know soon enough since people seem intent on lynching titus.

[Vecna]

And before anyone asks: Most others have been townier, with the exception of a few low effort'ish slots.

Not sure which of those or the tryhards id pick as my third. HH feels like a bad fit with either of those two as scum

[Vecna]

and if the worst argument against giving you IC is "ill jus tget shot n4" then im not all that bothered? four days of play is a lot in a 14 player setup, abd the game could be over already before.

then shouldn't you be trying to get IC if you believe that?

Also, you can't ask my opinion on getting it and then fuss at me for giving my opinion.

I wasnt fussing, you asked me for a reaction to your reply which was that youd get shot n4 for having IC.

And if people generally had a hard time reading me and were prone to mislynch me, I would. But that usually is not the case.

[Vecna]

I feel like we are spending an inordinate amount of time discussing role distribution and kind of just accepting Titus's death which is making me paranoid. I think the most important roles to actually distribute is the miller for obvious reasons and potentially Day 3 King, but to a lesser extent. I think we need to refocus because there seems to be some consternation about Titus and Not-Titus.

I'm having a hard time being active in this game because of the mechanics talk. I'm not very good at it, and I tend to start sheeping if I can't keep up with the discussion.

Feel free to instead discuss who you think is scum and town, nothing of the mech talk should dissuade you from javing a meaningfull talk on that topic.

[Vecna]

In post 78, Hidden Happiness wrote:

Okay can I never talk about mech again thanks. I'll get super bored fast. In terms of reads...
VOTE: Vecna
10 points if anyone else sees what I see.
~Orihime

-------------------------

I still want to know what that was about. Noone else apparently saw it, so I want to hear it from the horses mouth.

[Vecna]

I wasnt fussing, you asked me for a reaction to your reply which was that youd get shot n4 for having IC.

you asked me my feelings about having it, yes. And town with a public IC role is just going to get shot @ some point, like thats just commomn sense. But then you misrepped the absolute fuck out of me and said that I was arguing against me being an IC.

you're just fucking scum.

"Misrepped the absolute shit out of you"? Really now?

I initially asked why you only responded about my role allocation and didnt comment about your own IC allocation while voting down the proposal. Then you promptly vote for the next proposal while ive been giving a way more important role.

I never stated you were arguing against you being an IC, I was insinuating you were being shady about it in another way and were avoiding the topic

[Vecna]

Anyways, I need to just refrain from talking to Nero too much. Nothing productive ever comes of it, and for some reason we always irritate the shit out of eachother

[Vecna]

cfj probably formatted the scum role pms as "you are a multiacting mafia" or something so it's not impregnable townslip but still townslippy/would require her to think of that and etc

I like 994 even less now

Both town and scum PR in the OP (and similair)

[Vecna]

ugh, these reaches from titus

[Vecna]

Oh jesus. I thought my modifier was unique. Carry on. I'm so embarassed.

Who told you? I don't suppose you "suddenly" decided to look at the OP at this point, so "someone somewhere" must've pointed it out for you.

It largely depends on whether you see town!apthet visiting the OP in reaction to post 999.

I bought that but I see less than 100% equity in that and some equity in her figuring it out the other way.

The real question is whether there is equity in forcing a townslip as scum while being mostly townread by the high volume posters.

[Vecna]

None of Titus's read progression seems authentic. She's as of now suspicious of both a50 and apthet even though those slots are very much in opposition to eachother. I don't know what HH or Vecna see in this slot.

I don't know either, I just have a feeling this is the desperate town version of moon logic. I might be wrong and the slot decided to tryhard upon replace in since its still an early game.

The last few times I saw titus replace into a scumslot were very different. This time I actually believe that she believes her own posting.

[Vecna]

A50, who is scum? Who is town? Talk about something other than mechanics.

I'll only respond to someone who treats me with respect, not be drunk everytime they talk to me.

And I actually feel titus is correct about this slot. There was some genuineness there after I first called A50 out, where I felt I was wrong, but.....

All recent posts just make me feel my initial impression of the slot was correct. I dont feel genuine analysis from A50 this game. It just feels oportunistic, and like the slot is actively looking for stuff to scumread.

just my read

[Vecna]

I have this weird feeling the game is probably 1 deepwolf 2 obvscum, because otherwise the proposals would have either butterglided or hardbounced.

Am I crazy?

Im afraid this type of setup (while fun and awesome) has a tendency to make a certain crowd "proposal-tired"

[Vecna]

No, you're not. It could very well be the case. I don't even know what scum would do here though. Like, if you were scum, what would you be fighting for? Would you be content lynching one of your own? Would you be content NOT lynching one of your own? Would you go for certain roles?

At the start of the game I made a list I keep referring to every now and then:

Scum will give to Town:

Compulsive Quitter:
Timid: Banned from proposals
Night 1 Universal Backup:
Inactive (Passive): For the rest of the game, proposals that give you a Day or Night action are invalid.
Vanilla:

Scum will give to Scum:

Day 3 King: Only D3 proposal is yours
Inventor (Night): 4 Nights of 1-shot
Bodygaued/Friendly Neighbour (Scum Visitor)/Activated Hero (switches Quitter with who proposed it to you)/Announcing Mailman (Messenger)

Scum will give one to each:

Neighbour:
Neighbour:

No Idea

1-shot Gladiator (Day): when no proposal is being voted on, ("Challenge: player"). All proposals that day are invalid unless they give the Compulsive Quitter role either to you, or to the player you challenged.
Day 5 Innocent Child (Passive): If you are Town-aligned
Macho:
Miller: Appear scum regardless of alignment
Odd-Night Motion Detector:

As such, I already have 3 roles that I think scum would give to scum (King, Inventor & 1 Neighbor). If I apply my theory in a vacuum (i.e. not including my reads), Oversoul should be clear based on his draft. If momo is scum then you and Vecna are his likely partners based on his preliminary proposal, but we can switch Vecna with Icon based on his second draft (less significant).

Applying the same to Vecna's proposal he gave Inventor to Icon, gave King to momo and out you in the Neighborhood.

Then YOU proposed (momo+Vecna+pops have proposed so far) and you gave momo King and yourself Inventorm and while Vecna is a UB that could easily be remedied by shooting one of the Neighbors on N1. You were the only one to give Iconeum a useless role (Timid). If you didn't I would have suggested the scum team to be of FOUR members.

But that all goes against what I see from your posting (all 3 of you). If the team is literally pops+Vecna+momo I'd tip my hat to all 3 of you and I'd concede right now.

This post attributes way too much power to scum in pushing through whatever they want. Theyll pick their battles, maybe, for some of it.

[Vecna]

VOTE: for

I have a bad feeling about this

ur not townreading momo?

there's going to be some overlap here since this is also a reason why I'm suspicious of Vecna but this made me tinfoil a Vecna-Icon team that takes opposing stances on a player.

I don't really like the idea of giving scummy players a miller role b/c assuming we get a cop @ some point they can just use but "im a miller" as an excuse for why they invested as red. Miller should go to someone that's town and a that's being heavily town read by the majority.

And for that reason, I'm out.

VOTE: against

That is exactly what I am darling.

So what do you think about yourself in the IC role, becayse thats the change id expect you to comment on.

The miller allocation has been there for a while.

What does the bolded mean? I mean, giving me IC just gets me shot n4. Do you think that scum want to deal with conf town Nero? no, they don't. I'm not really sure what would be best to give me b/c I'm not very good at long term strategy. I kinda liked the idea of being the backup and having one of the useful prs but eh...

This sounds like dodging. Being backup is likely to give you a powerfull role, depending on scum strategy which means a likely early exit as well.
If it's your goal to live past N4, why not go for some of the lesser roles?

I just didn't like this interaction. At the time I was being proposed a miller role so what he was saying really made 0 sense. I mean, I was being asked how I felt about being an IC and I gave my honest opinion about it. I think being shaded over it was dumb and scummy.

I feel like we are spending an inordinate amount of time discussing role distribution and kind of just accepting Titus's death which is making me paranoid. I think the most important roles to actually distribute is the miller for obvious reasons and potentially Day 3 King, but to a lesser extent. I think we need to refocus because there seems to be some consternation about Titus and Not-Titus.

I'm having a hard time being active in this game because of the mechanics talk. I'm not very good at it, and I tend to start sheeping if I can't keep up with the discussion.

this pinged me hard though.

Nero, honest question here:

Why does it surprise you that people (being me) question your motives after youve been arguing against any proposal where I get a powerfull role?

You now say you scumread me on some reaction from icon, but you were constantly shading any proposal where I got anything meaningfull way before that.

[Vecna]

@all: which player are you least confident in your ability to read?

everyone?

prob mostly vecna b/c he always says silly and scummy things but that applies to like half the playlist so....

I'm ok being a compulsive quitter. Not sure if I am the best or if I die permanently. But I'd be around for VCA if I understand

I don't really like how Titus is claiming to not have read/pretending to not have read so now I'm good with this lynch.

I'm going to take another look at the proposal but honestly, I'm just kinda eh...like, idk, the first time I read Vecna's thing about giving the useful pr to not good/hard to read players I was like but I guess it does kinda make sense? I mean I guess I'm just out of my depth and I don't really know what would make for the best role assignments.

VOTE: against

I don't really like the idea of vecna as king someone come up with a better plan

I don't think I hammered or anything so why are we doing a hard reset. I just think that Vecna is king is ???

I WILL NOT BOW TO HIM!

Who are your top 3 town reads momo?

Pops, vecna, and you

namaste

but y vecna?

I don't really like the idea of giving scummy players a miller role b/c assuming we get a cop @ some point they can just use but "im a miller" as an excuse for why they invested as red. Miller should go to someone that's town and a that's being heavily town read by the majority.

And for that reason, I'm out.

VOTE: against

So this is my point.

I guess I can somehow see why you wouldnt want me being king, based on our history.

But the stuff that happens after is just weird, especially after your first statement is that im the person you have most trouble reading.

You werent against me being king because I was scummy. You were aware I was being widely townread, you were even asking people why.

But then suddenly the proposal where im being put forward as miller is a no go because you think im scum? Because there was no indication whatsoever upto this point you were susicious off me.

And then afterwards you make a big fuss about me asking you why this was the thing you commented in, as opposed to your own IC role.

surely it must not come as a surprise this was weird to me?

so why were you suspicious of my slot when the vecna miller proposal was put forward?

[Vecna]

I have this weird feeling the game is probably 1 deepwolf 2 obvscum, because otherwise the proposals would have either butterglided or hardbounced.

Am I crazy?

Im afraid this type of setup (while fun and awesome) has a tendency to make a certain crowd "proposal-tired"

+1

It's good game design to give players lots of possible options. With a group of more advance players you can offer even more options. It takes a lot of options before you've offered players too many options.

44 billion is a lot of options though.

I agree myself, its just something i notice in others at times

[Vecna]

1-Shot Gladiator: Almost50
Inactive: Saudade
Day 5 Innocent Child: Oversoul
Inventor: popsofctown
Day 3 King: Apthet
Macho: Gamma Emerald
Miller: Momo
Odd-Night Motion Detector: Lil Uzi Vert
Neighbor: Titus
Neighbor: Vecna
Vanilla: Iconeum
Timid: Hidden Happiness
N1 Universal Backup: Nero Cain
Compulsive Quitter: CheekyTeeky

this is pretty ok. I dont really have a read on cheeky but I like the role assignment

[Vecna]

not sure if I prefer HH over nero for backup, but id vote for this proposal.

Just waiting a bit so it doesnt get speedhammered instantly.

[Vecna]

because your such a likely nk with so many people scumreading you

[Vecna]

@Offical Proposal:

Timid: Hidden Happiness

@mod: proposal listed in votecount is not correct

ah, that makes sense. was already wondering why it changes.

[Vecna]

Is that where you're going with this?

I dont think anyone missed the implication

Its even possible that that is what happened.

Its an interesting devellopment, that is for sure.

[Vecna]

If i had to pick the town in hh and A50, id still pick HH though.

too much gotcha going on.

[Vecna]

after this exchange id vote for the same proposal with these changes:

HH as the actual UB
A50 as lynch
Cheeky as timid
Nero as whatever remains with everyone keeping the same.

[Vecna]

I dont like CTs reaction either, but I still feel like we randomly ended up on inactive town and scum have moved on to setting up their next mislynch.

Or maybe im misreading the situation and A50 is just doing whatever

[Vecna]

yeah i meant the choice for our non-titus lynch

[Vecna]

Cheeky is almost certainly scum. Saying "you're lynching me over people that have content" almost certainly indicates that she's lurking to avoid pressure.

That said making Titus and Vecna neighbors isn't something that I can vote for. Titus is scummy imo and Vecna is already townreading her. I tr Vecna, but I don't want him to be Titus' neighbor. If Titus is a neighbor, the other neighbor must be a someone that will look at her critically that is widely townread. I'd volunteer, but people seem to want to give me miller. If that keeps me alive, it's whatever.

VOTE: against

oof, i don't even know where to begin

[Vecna]

Why does it surprise you that people (being me) question your motives after youve been arguing against any proposal where I get a powerfull role?

You now say you scumread me on some reaction from icon, but you were constantly shading any proposal where I got anything meaningfull way before that.

???? I don't even know what this is but I'm sure that it's stupid and I don't see the point or even what the intent is other to argue.

And then afterwards you make a big fuss about me asking you why this was the thing you commented in, as opposed to your own IC role.

Why should I have commented on it? You asked me my thoughts on getting it and I think it just gets me shot. I mean how is that not common sense? The

ONLY

reason scum would leave an IC alive is their reads are soooooooooooo bad that they are like a 4th scum member.

I started scum reading you b/c trying to frame my answer as "complaining" was scummy as shit.

You did so before, while complaining about me getting miller though

[Vecna]

or I guess my not wanting Vecna to give himself the miller role came b4 he lied about me complaining about the IC role. So maybe it was the just Vecna giving himself the miller that pinged me in the first place or maybe it was something b4 then. Oops, I forgot something about this game, say it isn't so! On the plus side, we get to watch Vecna huff and puff about how I'm scummy

yep.

Youre the one huffing and puffing though, trying to make a big deal out of me questioning you on something. And then throwing a tantrum when realizing you dont have the answers. And now trying to play it oh so cool.

What are your other reads, besides me and iconeum?

[Vecna]

So youre voting down the first wagon that pops up on scum (fypov) because im a neighbour?

[Vecna]

also, please quote where I claimed something you said that you did not actually say.

Because im confused, abd thats not what happened

[Vecna]

Feels to me your more busy trying to look good in this exchange over anything else

[Vecna]

1294 is resonant enough I townread this slot too much to want it inactive

Yeah, Im happy to see I could still read a weird slot like saudade with some accuracy. The replacement is making a bunch of the right posts.

[Vecna]

Feels to me your more busy trying to look good in this exchange over anything else

What a meaningless platitude.

Good thing your posts have such encyclopedic depth to them

[Vecna]

giving me Gladiator and Nero the Backup = NKing me and giving Nero a worthless role (one he can't use w.o. the other players' consent). I'd be OK if you gave me King, Motion Detector or Inventor for Nero to inherit that.

awww, you care about what role I get.

but glad isn't useless. I can lynch scum with it and in the event that I'm wrong and tunneling bad town I can lynch them and move on. Win-Win for us.

I do. You're my top TR as we speak. And it's a bad role because using it w.o. town consent will be seen as a scummy move, and since there's literally 0 chance everybody will agree to using it to lynch a specific player it is never going to be used.

Now what if people actually did agree to lynch that someone? They could vote literally any proposal that does result in lynching them anyway, so same thing.

Explain to me why nero is your top town read. Titus also make a similair statement without explenation.

[Vecna]

1348 seems like a scummy post
Since it benefit Vecna to be good at reading Saudade now that Saudade is gone
Unless Vecna is thinking about the next time he plays with Saudade
But uh that's not something most people wanna spend time thinking about

I like showing with mostly new crowds that my reads can be decent. Especially when theres certain people shading me at every turn.

[Vecna]

Vecna to what extent should I think your argument with Nero Cain indicates you two don't share an alignment?

This game needs more old fashioned scumhunting and less arguing over the watered down PRs. Probably.

I honestly dont know. Hes doing a ton of shit that could either be constructed as mega scummy or just "classic nero cain".

Im still 50/50 on the slot, but all his crap definately isnt helping me sort the slot.

The one thing that is giving me pause is his unwillingness to realize that all the shit hes doing is easily construed/interpreted by people as coming from scum. Hes refusing to see any other side besides his "this is my town logic and if u cant see how it naturally comes from town ur a retard". Not sure if im explaining it properly.

But then on the other side of that coin theres the overly simplistic potshots, like the case where iconeum copies my post - like that is ever something scum does. Or the overly simplistic team of me-icon-cheeky. Just all seems so dodgy, and logic that should never come from a deductive mindset.

Thats my reason for my question to A50. It just again fits way too well with A50 (and maybe Titus) knowing the slot is town, and delighting from the sidelines in seeing this useless fight go down. Nero IS hard to read, and he has the exact same antagonistic playstyle as scum. They know that just as well, so I want to know.....how can Nero be your strongest townread in this game of people that have exceptional at towntelling?

[Vecna]

like, Vecna is trying to pretend like he's happy about something, like his win% went up based on pisskop's posts

But if pisskop just rose up to the same townread he had on Saudade his win% didn't go up that much.

Also he lost a possible opportunity for win% if pisskop replaced in and had a mega-scummy catchup

It seems like he's making sure to display an emotion but it turns out to be one that's not quite appropriate

I'm not like looking to assign him inactive or compulsive quitter just the kinda thing I feel like pointing out in case someone rereads the game in some intense 3 man lylo or something

Honestly, youre reading too much into it. It was just an ego post, confirming that my initial read of a hard to sort slot, that everyone was scumreading, was accurate.

[Vecna]

pls no ego.mafia
the game is so much more fun when we all play humble

fair enough, it is also more a reminder to myself for later days what my impressions are so I dont do something stupid. I wasnt under the impression such posts would rub anyone the wrong way.

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

[Vecna]

Person needs to acknowledge the problem themselves. I cannot give a name to Person now.

Is this about me?

[Vecna]

Weirdly we don't disagree with this as a list. But the fact that it came from a50 alone makes us doubt it. VOTE: Against

@MOD: This is unacceptable. I'm tired of this slot bringing up outside-of-game influence. They're not playing to win, They're playing to bug someone and that someone is me.

Why do you think this is based on out of game stuff as opposed to a scumread on your slot in this game?

[Vecna]

Its just a space filler, imo

Itll stop us from giving that person a strong pr on a day we get a protective, or after the bodyguard item has been given out though.


I have a suspicion itll be relevant

[Vecna]

Weirdly we don't disagree with this as a list. But the fact that it came from a50 alone makes us doubt it. VOTE: Against

@MOD: This is unacceptable. I'm tired of this slot bringing up outside-of-game influence. They're not playing to win, They're playing to bug someone and that someone is me.

All other points on A50 aside, the fact that the possibility of "oh, Hidden doesn't trust me because they think I'm scum" doesn't even cross his mind is almost unassailably town.

True, unless intentionally faked because pressure on the slot is rising. Calling in the GM for said gambit seems to be going a bit far though.

hmm

[Vecna]

Weirdly we don't disagree with this as a list. But the fact that it came from a50 alone makes us doubt it. VOTE: Against

@MOD: This is unacceptable. I'm tired of this slot bringing up outside-of-game influence. They're not playing to win, They're playing to bug someone and that someone is me.

All other points on A50 aside, the fact that the possibility of "oh, Hidden doesn't trust me because they think I'm scum" doesn't even cross his mind is almost unassailably town.

It does come.rather quickly after I phrased similair reasons to be doubting a sr on nero as well

[Vecna]

The word "fluff" has been used in like 6 of my career mislynches.

Thanks for answering my question Shadoweh

Kind of a weird interaction given how high the content:fluff ratio is produced by pops

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

also, were approaching a point where its highly possible that scum are simply holding out on proposals to be able to get their wishes pushed through by merit of being the only ones left being able to propose.

[Vecna]

Oversoul, Aphtet, Pisskop - id prefer you guys not to propose for the forseeable future.

Also its high time cheeky starts participating, and i want to see a proposal from him within 48h

[Vecna]

I dont like the negative utility on me and pops. giving the two of us neighbours is a better fit with more options for later days.

Id be even willing to swallow an icon lynch, although hes not.my prefered option.

[Vecna]

Nero as inventor, Gamma as IC, luv as backup is also a better assignment if CT keeps being this useless

[Vecna]

GM: does rolestopping a person also prevent the nightkill?

[Vecna]

the OP links to the wiki which states only variations of a rolestopper wont stop kills, so im pretty sure scum cannot use their rolestop to circumvent protectives

[Vecna]

Ehm ok. Not used to additional setup info being hidden under the role pm spoilers

[Vecna]

queue the whiners stating I just faked a townslip

[Vecna]

Not faked a townslip.

It wasnt a potential townslip

the information you quoted is literally from the scum role pm is my point (and hidden behind a spoiler in the op).

[Vecna]

i want my townslip

[Vecna]

I don't know if you'd take it this far as scum though

Tbh, I might. But then the tone will probably give me away. Anyone who is good at tone reading can tell this is not an act as I'm genuinely pissed here.

But OK. Nero voted against, so I'm less confident this is the way to go. If it turns out to be the right call in the end I can always tease him about it for the next few games.

care to respond to my post regarding nero?

[Vecna]

Thats just disingenuous. Ive not made a single attempt to lynch him so far, and whenever I make an attempt to sort either of you, mend fences or just try to have a dialogue, I am met with hostile statements.

You clearly dont think im scum, so why given the opportunity dont you even attempt a little to change my mind if you have good reasons to think im so wrong?

I really dont get it

[Vecna]

Yeah I have no idea wtf CT is doing this game. Id figure he would be able to be better as scum than this, but thats not nearly enough to clear or save his ass.

[Vecna]

Im surprised not more people are suggesting an A50 lynch here. The scumreads there seem to be getting quite universal if im not mistaken.

I think my lynch pool for today in order of preference, currently is:

A50
CT
Icon/Titus
Nero
Gamma

Would definitely not want to lynch anyone else at this moment.

[Vecna]

I guess HH maybe

[Vecna]

It really bugs me for you to have a seven card lynchpool

So are you telling me any of those people are strong townreads for you? Those are the people id consider lynching with a very strong preference for the top, the rest are no go.

[Vecna]

I think my lynch pool for today in order of preference, currently is:

A50

CT
Icon/Titus

Nero
Gamma

didn't you fuss @ me earlier for thinking those two are scum? kinda odd you think they are scum but are light defending them at the same time.

Everything under CT is like a 50/50 to me atm. Titus is probably quite good at buddying me, has done some things I think most likely come from town, but nothibg that cant be faked. Still a good lynch.

Icon I have no idea about but a lot of people want it lynched, so im fine with it as a third/concensusbchoice if thats what it comes down to.

[Vecna]

I still want LUV as a neighbor, but a gladiating luv has some utility to me. I think nero as gladiator and luv as unibackup is better personally.

I dont TR momo, so I protest to their miller status. Swap apthet and momo pls.

otherwise sure.

I agree to the list, and these changes do indeed make it better

[Vecna]

anyways ive suggested it before, but id like the neighnourhood to go to some of the top townreads. It makes for a tool thatll at least be used that way, while still resulting in shit NK options for scum.

Id prefer it to be me and pops since there seems to be some snimosity there recently which ill probably be able to.smoothe out during the night.

Ill take the IC if thats what people want, but I feel more than enough people correctly townread me for it to be a waste just to appease.pops. Heck even the likely scum candidates arent calling me scum but are just trying tonshade my every post i make. Still would like that to go to nero, gamma or HH.

[Vecna]

whats the reason for wanting luv as neighbour again?

[Vecna]

Im a bit in doubt. id still wanna switch me and pops into those neighbour slots on the one hand. this just guarantees the first three nightkills to be the most townread and most active players.

on the other hand, ensuring those prs in town hands also has quite some benefits, since the inventor has a really nasty use in scum hands

[Vecna]

also, putting me as IC just to "avoid being mislynched" is kinda crap reasoning since im probably one of the least mislynched person on this website.

It has happened exactly only once

[Vecna]

Who do you think the three most townread and active people are? pops pisskop and who? I'd argue Momo but a few people disagree. There's as much argument over whose actually a townread as there is over specific roles. I don't know anything about your record mate but from where I'm standing you're definitely on the lower end of the pool.

I think more people would go to war over where to put Titus if we put you and pops into neighbour slots then is worth changing it over.

Me, pops and momo, probably. Most people were susp on the saudade slot, but after me and pops made a comment about it, everyone seemed to have blindly sheeped that opinion.

I dno, mayne im wrongfully under the illusion everyone except you (hh), nero and to a smaller extent popsicle are townreading me? I do have the feeling my opinions carry quite a bit of weight and that theyve shifted "public opinion" on the titus, A50 and nero slot quite a bit.

having said that, maybe I just need to kick up some more dust because this type of sleepy hiveminding thats going on feels kinda detrimental and boring

[Vecna]

@Aphet its mainly the weird and rediculous leaps and logic thats all over the place that ive often seen from titus as town. The bunch of times ive seen her replace in as scum that was something that was missing. I find it hard to go into detail further on that specific part.

The thing that has me worried is the friendly stance towards me, which is something she does often do as scum because she knows im usually unlynchable anyway. Often when were town together its much more of a throwdown a la me vs nero

[Vecna]

counterspell

[Vecna]

@

A50

AP, what do you think about the current proposal?

It's "number 2" for me, which is why I decided to switch accounts. Let me tell you why:

1- I already said I

do not

want to give Nero the Gladiator. Didn't I?
2- Giving me Inactive is bull"#2". I wanted Vanilla because I can still be given abilities when I'm proven town.
3- IC should be given to someone hard to sort. I don't think we need 5 days to sort Vecna. Do you?
4- I'll take Inventor on pops with a grain of salt. Not fully against that one. Dame with PK as King.
5- I have reservations against giving momo Miller. Switch him with Oversoul already
6- LUV as the Backup is meh. We don't know who scum are going to kill, so can't decide whether it's a good or a bad idea.
7- I am against lynching CT all the way, and I don't even care what her alignment is. She can't eat rope first every game. That's ridiculous.

Groovy baby, I like AP more than A50 already

[Vecna]

I insist that dancing with A50 is a mana ability that doesn't use the stack

:PPP

mana drain

[Vecna]

im such a sucker for buddying, momo is probably right to not neighbourize me with titus

[Vecna]

pops can buddy me in there all day though

[Vecna]

VOTE: against

[Vecna]

did they already steal your mojo?

[Vecna]

Vecna does seem too agreeable. I wouldn't know I'd need to look at everyone but I do remember thinking he seemed slimy early on.

Where have I been agreeable or slimy? Ive been the most controversial of everyone and have shifted public perception on multiple occasions and torpedo's multiple votes.

More unsubstantiated bullshit.

[Vecna]

not that ppl would sheep me anyways even if I did explain why he's scum but yeah....

Imagine, people being able to see through the nonsense.

[Vecna]

I still dont have a rocksolid townread on you by now LUV.

Its starting to get a bit worrysome.

Your homework: make me townread you before D3

[Vecna]

not that ppl would sheep me anyways even if I did explain why he's scum but yeah....

Imagine, people being able to see through the nonsense.

I am rarely sheeped. It's not like I'm saying that I won't case you b/c I don't think I'd get sheeped but thanks for trying to frame something in a neg light b/c you are proving my case 4 me.

Hint: im saying that because any case is nonsense by default due to it having the wrong underlying assumption

[Vecna]

You should make yourself usefull if youre town and convince me on some of your other reads. The frustrating part of playing with you is that if you are town, you tend to have pretty ok reads, at least later on in the game.

Being met with constant bullshit from your end whenever im trying to sort you makes it impossible to take anything serious from your end, because all it is is useless potshots directed towards me. Its that wonderful combination of frustrating and irritating that im sure youre used to receiving whenever you post stuff.

Maybe try and stop acting like youre above everything and everyone, try to explain something once in a while, and dont expect people to simply understand the divine musings that only exist in your head.

The worst part of it all is that im fully aware this is mostly frustrating because youre like a worse version of me.

[Vecna]

Just type out reasoning why you think stuff so I can at least gauge if it comes from a place of contemplation?

Its not like we dont have overlapping thoughts on some slots.

Im town. Youre not gonna get me lynched, like you said. So if youre town (which I fully believe is like 50% possible) - can we, for the love of wonderfully flavoured chickenshit just not get bogged down in unpleasant crap for once this game? Because itll drag our chances of winning down considerably, and itll result in some stupid showdown again at some point.

[Vecna]

id pass that in a heartbeat

[Vecna]

this is actually the first time im noticing that the motion detector is only odd nights

[Vecna]

yeah, lets turn this current one down and get that one passed.

whether the lynch is titus, CT or A50......dont even mind so much. the role distri is good

[Vecna]

we still need six votes to be able to go to the next proper proposal guys.

if you hurry up i might even give in to an iconeum lynch

[Vecna]

yeah, this game is already shaping up to be a nightmare for the replacements.

[Vecna]

almost50

you 'still' have not addressed my read on Momo, why?

I have, and long before this silly feud started.

momo is the towniest slot in the game

. He was when I said it and he still is.

What I'm trying to decide is YOUR alignment, because deciding that could be the difference between us winning or losing the game (as either alignment. If you're town and I SR you we lose. If you're scum and I TR you we lose. If you're scum and I SR you we may have a chance. If you're town and I TR you our chance is bigger).

So I think I'm not passing any official proposals until I've decided on your slot.

If A50 is scum I'd lock SSS slot and Momo as town.

that type of communication is actually definately in RCs playbook towards a scum teammate. Ive seen him do it. and these type of posts are probably why (it works)

[Vecna]

Vecna why did you think apthet was a good idea for UB?

Just one of my townreads

[Vecna]

is this the scum tactic where you try to be special by having unique snowflake reads?

[Vecna]

point of discussion: using isos to form reads is about as usefull as watching desperate housewives to update yourself on current politics

[Vecna]

also, why question my on aphet and then have him in your top townreads? seems quite contradictory to ask that question with those reads

[Vecna]

It's odd that noone has thought to ask. I'll give one freely.

this just goes to show how much youre aware of whats going on in the game

[Vecna]

this one:

1-shot Gladiator: Almost50
Inactive: Titus
Day 5 Innocent Child: Nero Cain
Inventor: apthet
Day 3 King: Oversoul
Macho: Lil Uzi Vert
Miller: momo
Odd-Night Motion Detector: Gamma Emerald
Neighbor: popsofctown
Neighbor: Vecna
Timid: Hidden Happiness
Night 1 Universal Backup: pisskop
Vanilla: Iconeum
Compulsive Quitter: CheekyTeeky

where the lynch can be swapped around with the usual suspects

[Vecna]

And A50 and nero are fine just the way they are in it

[Vecna]

It's odd that noone has thought to ask. I'll give one freely.

this just goes to show how much youre aware of whats going on in the game

What's the point of saying this? I've already said I'm not aware of what's going on multiple times.
Getting sick of your attempt to shade every input I've given.

Its not shading. People have been asking for it. Then you finally show up to do something and complain that noone asks for your opinions.

Stop trying to play the pity card and play the game instead

[Vecna]

This is a semblance of dayplay.

I'm trying to figure out why 7 people have made the assignments that they have. That's pretty much the only thing I CAN contribute until I'm caught up.

If you want more traditional dayplay, tell me who is scummy/towny and why.

we've made (or attempted to make) a balance between giving negative utility to scum and the vitals.to townreads, while at the same time giving the strongest townreads the roles that are not so usefull to nightkill (miller/neighbour etc).

As can be expected, paranoia makes people opinionated, and some proposals that mighte lynched scum were already shot down.

the current proposals role distribution is solid.

These people are all solid townreads (fmpov):
momo
pops
oversoul/jingle
aphet

some people believe A50 and the slot that creature now has are a scum package. others believe its iconeum and cheeky. Theres some weird interactions that might lead one to beleive either of these is true. i cba finding that.

Gamma and luv have been doing more or less what u can expect of them, and could both very well be town.

nero has been nero. weve been fighting.

yeahs, thats pretty.much it. I feel like im forgetting some slots, but whatever.

[Vecna]

Yea but ive obvtowned so its cool.

Actually Id rather not have that role either tbh

oh yeah, this slot is also town

[Vecna]

personally, I think A50 + creature + HH/Nero is gamesolve. Ive been wrong before. If this flips town, I disagree with momo that creature should be the lynch tomorrow, but im probabaly getting too stuck in the picture of these connections that might not exist.

[Vecna]

having said all that, this proposal should pass.

Also, you being here makes me nervous somehow jingle