mini 2093, the search - an interminable period of darkness.

[Channel Fireball]

Quite a lot of posts already. Let us not spam this gamethread shall we?

My alt wincondition is something I have 0 control over so I most likely lose babes

Isn't that all of us?

- Acute

how about we all ignore the alternate wincon and count this is as a W in our hearts if town wins?

- Acute

I find these posts quite strange, I have to say. Defeatism straight out the gate does seem quite out of place, even for a game like this.

[Channel Fireball]

And I have to deal with mafsepia

Oh shit, I’m so sorry...at least you can still have mafSilver on your main

VOTE: pine

I use mafblack

Also this isn't gonna be a tryhard game on my end so I think you've been spared

- Acute

May I ask the reason for your vote here?

[Channel Fireball]

Channel Fireball...hydra of CDB and Firebringer? Someone else?

We are a secret hydra. We do not wish to reveal ourselves.
I forgot to ask my partner what part of the name they wish to choose however. Let us say that all the posts posted above were posted by Fireball, if that helps you in any way.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Pine, Chenni, and Penguin are all town so far.

And don't be confused; don't think 'maybe it's Maybelline." Oh no, there's only one and only...

Spoiler:

[Channel Fireball]

Now if the scum really wanted to start some gambling, what they should do is whichever one of them has an alternate wincon that can be fulfilled post-lynch, they should claim scum, claim their alternate wincon, and we'll see if we can't get their alternate wincon done after we lynch them. Sure they get lynched but they don't need to be alive to fulfill their alternate wincon. Right? This sounds like a good plan for the scum, they should take us up on it.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Anyway, regardless of this alternate win condition business...
I happen to have an extremely good scumtell for Chennisden and he fulfilled it this game.
VOTE: Acute Right Obtuse therefore should be a good lynch.

[Channel Fireball]

Anyway, regardless of this alternate win condition business...
I happen to have an extremely good scumtell for Chennisden and he fulfilled it this game.
VOTE: Acute Right Obtuse therefore should be a good lynch.

- Fireball. Apologies.

[Channel Fireball]

Skygazer's town too

Actually, let's do it this way--who wants to bet on whether Chenni is town or scum? My head bets a m20 forest on town chenni, fireball bets a 2019 banefire that chenni's scum, who wants to take us up?

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

DEB is also probably town but not as hilariously overconfident on that

I'm really charging up here

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Wow I expected this game to make me hate myself but I didn't expect it to make me hate myself this much

Scum caught

Game over

VOTE: Angles

Now if the scum really wanted to start some gambling, what they should do is whichever one of them has an alternate wincon that can be fulfilled post-lynch, they should claim scum, claim their alternate wincon, and we'll see if we can't get their alternate wincon done after we lynch them. Sure they get lynched but they don't need to be alive to fulfill their alternate wincon. Right? This sounds like a good plan for the scum, they should take us up on it.

-Chanel

I think only scum would think this way

Why does 42 sound like flavor leaf but 46 sound like baezu

I'm assuming it's only one head posting so which one am I wrong on?

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

me thinking it’s scum indicative probably means he’s town.

Damn leaf what have they done to you these last few months?

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Town:
Baezu Leaf
DEB

Likely town:
Pine
Pengiiiiiiiii

Likely Scum: Acute Right Obtuse

Other people: other things

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Town:
DEB

Likely town:
Pine
Pengiiiiiiiii

Likely Scum: Acute Right Obtuse

1000% confscum: Baezu Leaf

Other people: other things

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

What is your scumtell on chennisden?

As the wagon on his hydra is fairly populated I feel no need to explore this at the moment. Revealing this would mean harder games in the future to solve Chennis' alignment, as he would be aware of that tell. I will only reveal this if needed. I hope you understand my position.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Flavor Leaf is being a naughty boy and needs his punishment

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Yeah that was a scummy reaction lol

-chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Yeah that was a scummy reaction lol

-chanel

here's a quiz:

what alignment does chennis prefer playing as

I'd say slightly to the left, maybe a 15 degree angle

-chanel

[Channel Fireball]

There's no meta tell THAT STRONG on anyone particularly a player like me.

If only you knew, my dear Chennis. If only you knew.
You actually do seem to be aware of what I am implying however. Still very happy with this vote.
- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

If not for the meta tell, your reaction to all of this is not representative of your town game. This frustration and the way you phrased it comes from you when you roll scum. I feel fairly certain about that. This reaction is clearly a response coming from frustrated scum that wants to know how they got caught, or perhaps being able to rectify their mistake mid-way, which is unfortunately for you not going to happen.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: fireball your post have just been rubbing me the wrong way

Which post are you referring to?
By all means, feel free to elaborate on that.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: fireball your post have just been rubbing me the wrong way

Which post are you referring to?
By all means, feel free to elaborate on that.

- Fireball.

The sentiment behind all of the "I'm not going to reveal the obvious tell because it'll ruin future games" feel very have blind faith in me because I know best.
Don't like it

I can understand not liking the move. As numbers stated they found it distateful. However I would like to know if that sentiment translates to me being scummy. What scummy intent do you think I hold by saying such things?
I would also like to know your thoughts on the ACO hydra, if possible, and what they have posted so far. Thank you.

[Channel Fireball]

- Fireball. I seem to miss a lot of signatures. Apologies.

[Channel Fireball]

I don't see anything of much substance in their posts. The only interesting one was the rant about your read. Seems genuine but if the parts about ability at this game are true I can easily see it being fabricated.

I'm not a big fan of day one. I'm normally one of the lynch options at the end of the day and in my experience the only useful stuff that happens is the voting towards the end of the day which almost always ends in a town lynch. I don't think anyone can have any certainty about anyone else's alignment at this point in the game unless they are scum and know everyone else it town.

I understand your position. However this tell is pretty strong, and the response to it makes me think that this tell is also applicable this game. If not for the tell itself, perhaps Chennis' response to it should be fairly telling that he seems particularly annoyed by my vote in particular, while having 4 other players on the wagon. The other reason why I have not revealed the tell, is to see what the slot would do about it, and they seem fairly obsessed with it to the point of only generating discussion about it, and not the game itself. Disregarding the tell, this is fairly scummy.

[Channel Fireball]

I'm annoyed because you're pretending to have a real reason for doing so

- Acute

I do. This is perhaps the most obvious scumtell I have seen in any game of mafia, and I am frankly quite surprised nobody pointed it out in the last scum game you played in Gay Dance. Consider yourself lucky.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

My presence in those games is a non-relevant point of discussion, considering anyone can delve in the games you have played at any time. And if they do, they will certainly notice the same thing that I have notice, and will promptly join your wagon.

What made you think that our alt-condition is the one of a Lyncher? And what made you think that over the possibility of me being scum?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

i don't think you'd read my games just for funzies, and you really can't pick up on meta-tells without playing with a player

You're correct. The reason I took the time to take a quick look at your recent games is because something felt quite off this game regarding your slot and in terms of your posts. A quick investigation led me to the conclusion that you did something that is very specific to your scumgame, so I pointed it out. Channel felt your slot was relatively townie prior to this, for all that's worth.

I still don't understand why your mind jumped first to "you are a lyncher!" rather than "you are scum!". I find that pretty interesting.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I will admit that all of these people need some glasses because quite frankly, between you and I, I still don't understand how you got away with that particular thing for so long.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Oh trust me, dear. It exists. It's as clear as day. And the fact you insist about it for so long while trying to discredit my slot in particular, while having no discussion about the game in general, is very telling. It's also very amusing to see that you actually noticed your own tell as well. I know you have.

In fact, I invite all players here to do the same about your recent games. They can just have a cursory look and I can guarantee you that they will notice it as well.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Oh trust me, dear. It exists. It's as clear as day. And the fact you insist about it for so long while trying to discredit my slot in particular, while having no discussion about the game in general, is very telling. It's also very amusing to see that you actually noticed your own tell as well. I know you have.

In fact, I invite all players here to do the same about your recent games. They can just have a cursory look and I can guarantee you that they will notice it as well.

- Fireball.

then what excuse do you have for not outing it?

exactly.

I wouldn't describe it as an excuse. Rather I would describe it as a way to show people your true alignment, without having to out the tell itself. Your reaction is quite invaluable to show to other players that you are scum, and the subconscious slip that you think I have a lyncher alt-con, rather than me simply being scum. This should be enough to prove your alignment to other town players.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

These pagetop stealing crimes shall not go unpunished, Doug!

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

At the same time fireball's push feels weird

I will admit that what I am doing is quite overkill, given a lot of players were already inclined to push ACO. Although, I would much rather ensure a lynch on scum today, it would not be the first time I see some wagons losing momentum without any rhyme or reason, especially an early day wagon. This is just insurance that we lynch scum today.

If you want to make sure you understand what I am referencing, I invite you to take a very quick look at Chennis' recent games, then look at this one. You will probably have a "oh!" moment, and vote with us and the 4 others on this wagon.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Chenn, ur reaction to all of this ... is not great

At the same time fireball's push feels weird

you probably think it's weird because i would be livid at this bullshit as

both alignments

.

you do agree that he's probably lying about his meta tell?

Idk, i have to check your game in gay dance to see if i see what hr says he sees

I invite you to also iso his towngames to have a pretty stark comparison. You could notice it in 2 minutes, top.
Here's a tip: what's being written is actually completely irrelevant.

- Fireball.

pedit: Of course.

I have referenced Gay Dance, so here is a lynch to Chennis' iso that game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11164117
Check any other town game for a comparison.

[Channel Fireball]

This one is in the normal queue archive, for example, for a towngame of Chennis; https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10976751

Again, what's being discussed is hardly relevant. The tell is much simpler.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Fireball are you changing ur writing style as part of the hydra gimmick?

The way you're writing feels kinda unnatural

Yes I am. I am writing much more formally than I usually would.
- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I think holding my tell has generated enough results in regards to reaction and won't produce anything new, so I might as well share it with the rest of the playerlist.

In the majority of games that chennis has played as town, his typing style is fairly loose. "this is how chennis would type most of his sentences". It is fairly congruent with his stream-of-consciousness style of posting, with no regards to grammar. Notice in particular that his sentences, more often than not, start with a lowercase letter.

On the contrary, in Gay Dance, all of his posts were written starting with an uppercase and fairly well written. My style of posting would be comparable to Chennis' Gay Dance game, for example. It's a subconscious tell when people try to get taken more seriously, such as people try to show a professional facade when applying for jobs. This is fairly telling when it comes to mafia, as it indicates that Chennis as town does not necessarily desire to be taken seriously, but very much does so when playing as scum, hence the clean posting style, and the incongruence between stating he does not care about this game, and vehemently arguing against my reason for voting him.

You may think it is completely absurd, but this is the kind of thing that people do on a subconscious level that gives them away textually. It is akin to someone smiling when they are lying in face-to-face mafia, for example. This is why it is quite a serious scumtell in my eyes.

[Channel Fireball]

Another subconscious tell would be assuming that our slot has a lyncher win-condition as a justification of us pushing there, instead of simply we are scum trying to score a mislynch. It's a subconsious tell that we are town, and that Chennis therefore subconsciously came up with an explanation that would make sense in his point of view. Those things are quite important.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. I noticed it. Your initial reaction to our push kind of reaffirmed my position however.

Although, if there is someone with an alt-condition that goes against yours, I guess your reaction could make sense.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I have a question, however. Why would you assume in that case that we would be that player, instead of all the other players that voted you prior? Does that player holding that wincondition know your identity?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

UNVOTE:

[Channel Fireball]

specifically i'd think the person is town because if they were scum they could just NK me to manipulate their condition into fulfilling and that's too boring/bad

If this is what you think, why did you vote us?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Right.

I think that train of thought is fairly townie and that you're not lying about that piece of information. Perhaps scum is elsewhere. Do you have any reads?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Right.

I think that train of thought is fairly townie and that you're not lying about that piece of information. Perhaps scum is elsewhere. Do you have any reads?

- Fireball.

i think gobble is probably my most likely scum candidate.

If you suspect him of being your presumed Lyncher doesn't that mean he is town more often than not? That seemed to be your reasoning.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I feel chennis being significantly townier here helps a lot with this game.

My thoughts now go towards Numbers and cyrus in terms of who has a big chance of being scum.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Why are you hunting alternate wincons rather than primary wincons, numbers?

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Anyonw wanna wagon cyrus with me?

I'm down

VOTE: Cyrus

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Number's defense of Cyrus feels quite out of place. In fact a lot of stances that Numbers has taken this game feel quite detached. They do ask a lot of questions but don't have a lot of reads of their own. I think Cyrus and Numbers are equally good lynches here, perhaps.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

There aren't many stances to take so far in this game.

Frankly I find that hard to believe. On a very basis level, every read you have is a stance in itself. Saying you don't have many stances to take in this game, would imply that you have very little to no reads. I find that to not be possible from a player that actually has been participating in some discussion already. This is a part of why I am suspicious of your slot, as I would imagine someone like you to have generated more thoughts and reads than mediating, say, our push against ACO earlier on.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

That sounds really great. What about Cyrus makes you think he is townie, though? If you think all of the people you mentioned are town, then where should we be pushing, in your opinion?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Maybe gobble; he hasn't really given me a town vibe from his posts, and he's definitely been around.

Is there anything that strikes you as scummy from Gobble, or is it just the fact that you can't find a town vibe in all of his posts? If it's the latter, what's the difference between him and say, someone like Penguin, or Baezu Leaf?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Fire you feel kinda scummy to me

Anything in particular you want to highlight?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Fire you feel kinda scummy to me

Anything in particular you want to highlight?

- Fireball.

A) i feel like ur tying cyrus to numbers (or vice versa)

B) you feel very stilted and not very natural, but i suppose that can be a product of trying to write formally, and not necessarily of your alignment

Point A is a fairly precise observation. There was the possibility that Numbers and Cyrus could be scum together given Numbers' sudden defense of Cyrus, which is why I asked questions to see if there was anything beyond that. I feel the connection to be quite less present than I first thought. I would like to say that Numbers feel much more townie with how they handled the subsequent conversation with me, although that might be a simple reaction to the points I raised earlier. Probably a slot I'd call Null here.

I am very much aware of point B. If I need to precise our discussion from earlier about it, this posting style is not a style that is designed to obscure my posting style, or my identity. Rather, it is a posting style forcing me to speak in such a way as to promote discussion and foster it, and make my thoughts quite known. Consider it a thought experiment of forcing myself to use a certain paradigm of posting, in which I am forced to convey my thoughts in a certain way, at the loss of authenticity. It may not make much sense to you, and may appear quite scummy, but I hold a lot of importance to this for personal reasons.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I feel like if one of them is scum you're setting up a lynch on the other next

Okay. What gave you this impression rather than the impression of a townie that sees a potential connection between two players given the odd defense of one of them on the other?

Would it be safe to assume that you think I could be setting up town!numbers' mislynch, or do you believe that there is a world where I am doing this, and that cyrus is town, and numbers is scum?

[Channel Fireball]

I feel like if one of them is scum you're setting up a lynch on the other next

Okay. What gave you this impression rather than the impression of a townie that sees a potential connection between two players given the odd defense of one of them on the other?

Would it be safe to assume that you think I could be setting up town!numbers' mislynch, or do you believe that there is a world where I am doing this, and that cyrus is town, and numbers is scum?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

You're a little bit scummy so far given 268 was pretty bad.

"Oh no, we're bussing one person day 1 to get a mislynch on day 2"?

like what are you even saying

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: skitter

[Channel Fireball]

I kinda don't think you scumread us for having two people in a scumpool and observing their interactions aren't great with you as town.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Because that requires you, as town, to be concerned that the game will not re-evaluate after a redflip on day 1 or that no investigative actions will take place.

You're acting like it's a mountainous or that we would stand to have some great benefit from lynching numbers, when those are idiotic conclusions to us simply observing the two slots could both be scum and already have bad associatives.

If you think a scum's top priority on day 1 is setting up the day 2 mislynch after bussing day 1 then you're diving down ridiculous rabbit holes that town you has no reason to dive down this far.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

interesting

this is also a bad response

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

is this something you think *i* wouldn't think as town, or something that you think a townie in general wouldn't think

Both

i don't know how you (your slot) got to 'cyrus and numbers are equally good lynches today', when i don't think that is at all the case, and i think that cyrus has been leagues scummier, and numbers' main crime is not scumreading him.

Funny how we just voted with you on Cyrus and didn't vote numbers, it's almost like this head agreed that cyrus has been acting fishieer.

i dont't hink that makes them equally good lynches; it's entirely possible for cyrus to be scum and numbers to be mistaken!town, say; i very much dislike that you're equating cyrus' play with numbers and making it seem like they're both equally scummy

Or numbers is spewing lazy!Cyrus town. Observing that number's defense of Cyrus seemed questionable can mean a number of things. Acting like we're informed that Cyrus is scum and are bussing him is the least logical conclusion to reach.

i think your slot is trying to introduce numbers to the poe pool, and i'm objecting to that

You're welcome to towncase him if you want but you jumping in here in the way that you did is nagl. I don't see why you're so confident in town numbers that you feel the need to white knight him, I don't get why you would imagine only one very illogical scenario for us making a simple observation that their interactions aren't great, and I really dislike you trying to control the PoE.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

@Skitter My head was townreading you for a while but I totally understand why my head voted you on that spot, given the specific set of responses you gave.

i think your slot is trying to introduce numbers to the poe pool, and i'm objecting to that

I don't think you actually have addressed that matter once. Perhaps you could explain why it's such a problem to you? Thanks.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

also fire was talking to me like he thought i was town

I would like to know what gave you that impression as well.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: Cyrus
I think I want this lynched more.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Hmm....

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

there's almost for sure scum in the back end of that wagon

Could you perhaps explain why you think this?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Don't let me interrupt you, Penguin.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Hi

Penguin Power and I were in a Neighborhood with Cyrus

Cyrus took a nibble at the “Out your buddy and we’ll help you with your wincon” bait

He named 123456789

PP’s a Jailkeeper (I don’t know how many shots) and protected me last night when Cyrus told us in twilight that the kill was coming for me, no-kill explained

VOTE: 123456789

Okay. What was Cyrus' wincondition?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: Pine

[Channel Fireball]

i actually believe that pp is a jk (or at least, had something to do with the fact that nobody died last night)

I can say with certainty that it had nothing to do with it.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Are you...are you fucking kidding me, Fireball?

It’s D2. You think I claim a semi-provable doc protect and a fake guilty with the whole game to go?

This is a game with a various amount of winconditions. This could be a ruse, for all we know, in order to achieve a wincondition.

Furthermore, I happen to have information that makes this story a bit less likely. So I am just skeptic here.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I also find it very unlikely that you would not know Cyrus' wincondition considering... you know... that you supposedly share the same win-condition, as a presumed bandit.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Hi

Penguin Power and I were in a Neighborhood with Cyrus

Cyrus took a nibble at the “Out your buddy and we’ll help you with your wincon” bait

He named 123456789

PP’s a Jailkeeper (I don’t know how many shots) and protected me last night when Cyrus told us in twilight that the kill was coming for me, no-kill explained

VOTE: 123456789

Okay. What was Cyrus' wincondition?

- Fireball.

I don’t know. Things happened too quickly. When I started going hard for him, he scumclaimed and clammed up except to threaten me

Pine, why did you lie about this?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Penguin said you were three bandits, so logically speaking you should have the same additional wincon. What is it, and why did you lie about that?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Also @numbers I would like to hear the claim, if possible.

I believe this game is close to being solved anyway.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Best regards to our Priest, by the by.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

We could perhaps verify that he indeed has a Super Loved modifier by voting him? Just to make sure.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

It's not a question about lying. It's a question about verifying your legitimacy. It's safely doable.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: numbers

[Channel Fireball]

Given that I know there is a Priest in this town, your claim of being bulletproof sounds rather up there as well.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Given that I know there is a Priest in this town, your claim of being bulletproof sounds rather up there as well.

- Fireball.

Role names don't necessarily indicate the roles ability

If a Priest has anything else than a "heal" ability in a game of mafia I will eat my shoe and invite your for a ceremony where I do it in front of you.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I heavily doubt it's the same role, given that it would need an alternate wincondition to go with it, and honestly I can't think of a single one.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Alternatively, we could also vote ACO.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I would also like to precise this is the second time a "someone is after me" argument is being invoked. So I think that either ACO or numbers can be lying about it.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

My role also aligns with my ability. So it's not flavor only.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

When we solve this numbers business, I'd very much like to go back on ACO.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

You probably should vote with me, and ensure that town is winning this game.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Are you voting me over night-action business, perhaps, since you said it had nothing to do with VCA?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Well? We're waiting for a self-vote, numbers.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Are you voting me over night-action business, perhaps, since you said it had nothing to do with VCA?

- Fireball.

no, because of how you were interacting with cyrus yesterday; how you tried to tie numbers to cyrus; and then how you scumread me immediately after pointing that out

My head was the one scumreading you, for all that's worth. They took actions all on their own and I support them doing that because we are a hydra.

Nonetheless, we are town. And I feel you should already know that.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Chanel's head*

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

And I feel you should already know that.

why should i know that ?

You're a player that can read between the lines and I know your abilities as a town player. I made sure to signal why I am a pro-town player. Perhaps one quick-reread would give you a hint.

Anyway, now that it's done: VOTE: ACO

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: Numbers

Tiring.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

We did not have a choice in picking abilities whatsoever.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Actually, something quite telling is that Cyrus was voting numbers early yesterday.

Perhaps numbers is right. Perhaps you guys need to lynch numbers to win.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: ACO
I think I believe Numbers here. Numbers, join this wagon with me.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Fireball, have we ever played together?

We have not.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Menalque is scum again? Boring I just did scum Menalque

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Page 29 is how scum mena presents his thoughts

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: Numbers

Fireball are you the lyncher thing that needs ARO dead?

I do not need ARO dead specifically. However, I need a certain role dead. ARO has great chances to be that role.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

What role is that?

Outlaw.

Since we had a vigshot, I assumed taking care of that situation later that night and instead focusing on scumhunting would be useful but I guess we got screwed by game balance and we honestly grew apathetic of this game, since we know that this outlaw is probably town and has an IC-like ability. So you know.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

It doesn't matter much anymore. EP was right and we are not going to win this game unless town collectively agrees to help us in our cause, which they won't do because this game is inherently designed so that does not happen. We have no interest in this game anymore, I suppose. It doesn't matter.

pedit: We tried to vig ARO last night. Nothing happened. We need to take them out by being on their lynch or shooting them, and we failed at shooting them. We know they have the power to reveal their alignment and their role, so unless this is a mafia role that has the ability to do something as soon as they reveal, it is much more likely that they are an IC. So my hydra partner and I grew seriously apathetic of this game when we realized it was heavily unlikely for us to win this game.

We also have a rolecop ability, which is why we can accurately say someone is a Priest this game. Not that it matters either. We just lost by game design.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

What did you mean by this:

i actually believe that pp is a jk (or at least, had something to do with the fact that nobody died last night)

I can say with certainty that it had nothing to do with it.

- Fireball.

Someone must have healed ARO. At the time it seemed likely that the Priest we just discovered perhaps had a healing ability, and a wincondition that goes alongside it. That's why I made that statement.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

it's kinda weird for both of you to be town
it's also a weird role for you to need to take out a possible IC (possibly bp IC at that, if the vig shot failed)

pedit oh yeah that's weird too

I absolutely have no clue about this game's design anymore. It's also possible we are wrong and that ARO is not the person we were looking for, but I heavily doubt there are a thousand people that have the precise win condition of taking someone out. That's just what we need to do. We shot because we were scared of dying last night too.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

wait can you do two actions in one night?

We are allowed to use our vigshot on a night we investigate, according to our role PM.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

You are a lyncher, have a vig shot, and a rolecop. Why is my role so shit compared to yours

And yet we are going to lose because of a force that healed the person we needed to shoot, so it does not really matter in the end. Depression all around.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I honestly have no answer Penguin. I was just frustrated at the time that our only vigshot somehow got protected against. We kind of already know that we have probably no chances of winning this game, unless town wants to grant us our wincondition. We have a rolecop ability which could help town, for all that matters, so if we could perhaps bargain, that would be nice. Otherwise we have already lost this game anyway.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

you know that the priest can heal?

No, it was just an assumption. My partner also linked me the priest mafiascum wiki page when I posted those things in the thread. Something must have healed ARO, however.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

But you were the vig shot, right? Why would you assume there wasn't another shot (mafia) and say

with certainty

that my JK had nothing to do with no deaths last night.

yes this is also puzzling

and yes that doesn't sound like a town role really

Would I really be offered a vigshot if I was not town? I guess you could make the argument I could be a traitor, but really, scums being given a vigshot is horrible game balance. And yes I am aware we are in a game where the moderator said themselves that the balance would be horrible, but come on.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

By the by, you have to be aware that the mafia possibly considers me as a high threat: I have the ability to discern any lies with my rolecop ability, were it to come to it and that you guys helped me reach my game condition.

I will not help town if we are not helped with our wincondition, however. No chance.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

If you want to waste everyone's time by lynching a townie be my guest, since that's actively working against your own wincondition.

I have one thing to accomplish and at this point it seems unlikely unless I am granted help, which is unlikely given the design of this game. It frankly does not matter.

VOTE: Channel Fireball

Do it. It doesn't matter unless you are scum.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I try to blackmail the town because I know damn well that the role I need to execute has the ability to reveal their alignment and that the only clean way to get rid of them was to use our only vigshot, which just failed last night. So I have nothing else than to try and convince town to help me. If I can't I might as well just concede on the spot. This is not a game where I can just agree to help town because we have a unified goal. The design of this game is scum-sided by default because there exists townies like me that can get screwed over, and it just happened.

What am I supposed to do, Penguin? I honestly thought about replacing out, but that would be subjecting a poor soul to an inevitable loss.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

It's not a win. I refuse to play a game where I lose by default. It's insulting. I might as well ask to get modkilled instead.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Blame the design of the game, rather than my reaction. If you were in my shoes you probably would have reacted the same, or sulked in your irritation, perhaps.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

It's not a win. I refuse to play a game where I lose by default. It's insulting. I might as well ask to get modkilled instead.

- Fireball.

Pretty poor attitude to have tbh.

One of the rules of the site is "play to win".

Here is one of the rules of the game: - Each player has a separate win condition that they MUST fulfill in addition to their factional win condition to win.

If I cannot win by adhering to town's collective goal, then I simply refuse to help and even play.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

yeah i think this is kinda scummy

If you think it's scummy to be overly open about my alternate win condition, when I have no reason to do so, in conditions where numbers is likely to be pushed by the bandit pair, I don't know what to tell you.

I however invite you to help me. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot in terms of your win condition, go ahead and do so.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Channel, please stop self-voting. I think both you and ARO are town.

I cannot win if town doesn't lynch ARO, which is likely to be my target.
I might as well be dead here.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Please penguin go ahead. Lynch me so I can at least have the pleasure of knowing I am not the only person that will get screwed over this game.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

If you aren't going to play, please stop posting.

I have a precise alternate win condition and I'll fight about it until I can't anymore.

If that doesn't please you and it frustrates you to see a townie that has to play against their original condition because of game design, then just vote me and end this frustration.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I'd love to know, Penguin. It might be more interesting than whatever predicament this game has thrown me in.

[Channel Fireball]

Know what?

Who you think I am.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I guess you're not that bad at reading people after all.
It doesn't much. I legitimately cannot win this game anymore, and I am damn mad about it.

VOTE: numbers
have your vote

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: Channel Fireball

[Channel Fireball]

This game is kind of a joke. But it's fine. We got over it.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

My partner totally has given up with this game anyway and has tasked me with the account, so you know, there's also that.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

How about this:

I know that the outlaw can activate their power. If ARO is outlaw, they can become an IC and prove that what I say is right. It's a strict benefit for everyone.

How about we do that? Let's see who wants some free townie points.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

How about this:

I know that the outlaw can activate their power. If ARO is outlaw, they can become an IC and prove that what I say is right. It's a strict benefit for everyone.

How about we do that? Let's see who wants some free townie points.

- Fireball.

It’s not a night ability?

They have a power that will make their role and alignment public. I don't know the specifics, but this is what I know.

For all I know, perhaps they're tasked with killing me, and doing so reveals them? Who knows. It's maybe a result of another ability. I'm just being truthful and trying to win this game anyway.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: CRO

Everyone should vote this until he reveals himself as IC or not.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Because if he doesn't reveal himself as IC then he is EC. All we're told is that he can reveal his alignment, it doesn't confirm that he must be town.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

EC = Evil Child
IC = Innocent Child

like he could theoretically reveal himself as scum (if he is)
or he could reveal himself as town (if he is)

that would be funny, I don't think he is EC because that would actually be clever design, but strictly speaking it's correct to make an activated IC reveal in this gamestate

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Short sighted design to make half the town wincons impossible to achieve and thus giving town 0 incentive to play like town since they can't win according to RAW

but strictly speaking that conversation should be held for post

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

It doesn't matter much anymore. EP was right and we are not going to win this game unless town collectively agrees to help us in our cause, which they won't do because this game is inherently designed so that does not happen. We have no interest in this game anymore, I suppose. It doesn't matter.

pedit: We tried to vig ARO last night. Nothing happened. We need to take them out by being on their lynch or shooting them, and we failed at shooting them. We know they have the power to reveal their alignment and their role, so unless this is a mafia role that has the ability to do something as soon as they reveal, it is much more likely that they are an IC. So my hydra partner and I grew seriously apathetic of this game when we realized it was heavily unlikely for us to win this game.

We also have a rolecop ability, which is why we can accurately say someone is a Priest this game. Not that it matters either. We just lost by game design.

- Fireball.

So you KNOW ARO is outlaw? Or did they give you some indication that they are outlaw?

No we don't. We made that assumption because they said they had a lyncher-like role after them, which essentially is what our role is.

We considered that perhaps multiple people had a similar wincondition, but decided to take our shot because we were relatively confident that this was it. Although they survived our shot.

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

I believe my partner voted ARO earlier, but in case it's not done...

VOTE: ARO

[Channel Fireball]

If ARO is not outlaw then who is?

- Fireball.

[Channel Fireball]

Page 43 reminder that 123456789 is scum.

lynch all liars!

[Channel Fireball]

We are going to be stringing up CF today. Why? Because we can satisfy Number's alt win con and still get rid of them at a later date.

So your plan is to lynch a town investigative because you don't think you can fulfill our wincon

Sounds like you... suck at mafia!

It doesn't help that this setup is a steaming pile of shit, I know, but turning off your brain on the primary wincon to achieve a secondary wincon is awful.

Oh but wait --

I’m prettty sure that CF and Numbers have a good chance of both being scum given their roles so it’s ok we can knock this out

lol you think that "town rolecop with a multitasking one-shot vig" is something scum have in this setup. In fact you think we're "likely scum given our role"

vig failed or not, arguing we're scum because of roleclaim is steaming garbage. I mean I don't mind getting out of this game because the design is objectively bad, but pretending like you're playing to town wincon here is braindead levels of stupid.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

Flavour: Royal bodyguards, Empress, Bandits. All fit together nicely in this fictional world where the bandits are trying to kill the Empress.

Pretty sure it's just flavor

lol

[Channel Fireball]

I will grant my persuasion to

Said the guy with 0 credibility

[Channel Fireball]

Channel Fireball (5): Baezu Leaf, Menalque, skitter30, gobbledygook, 123456789

now that is a scum rich wagon LOL

[Channel Fireball]

1) Did you actually scumread ARO? Was that tell a load of crap to disguise your lyncher wincon?
2) How did you know that ARO was your target almost instantly?

1 - uh the "tell" thing from fireball was real, but I (Chanel) actually didn't really think it made ARO scum for sure, I just don't care enough about this game and it seemed like a fine push. So at the very beginning of the game we were basically just random pushing to see what happened. After they said they had a lyncher on them, I think we spent the rest of day 1 kinda just wanting to push anything else because we planned to vig them. Since the vig failed, we've basically been playing like a lyncher since they haven't IC'd themselves I'm guessing they might actually be scum. If they are scum BP, it could be that they could EC themselves to draw nightkill actions. Or at least that's the hope I have to justify continuing to play this game out. So toward the start we were real pushing, and most of day 2 we kinda need to just assume they're scum to continue playing the game. It's not exactly the same thing as a lyncher I guess although similar, given we don't actually know their alignment, we just know that our target can reveal their alignment, they seem like our target, and they haven't revealed themselves (which afaik only makes sense from a scum POV). So it's more--we have to believe they're scum, because we would prefer to believe our wincon is still fulfillable to bother playing this game at all. If that makes sense.

2 - We didn't know until they said they had a lyncher on them. I don't see why we'd assume a setup with multiple lynchers unless this setup is just a steaming pile of shit, which to be fair, it might be

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

your play doesn’t really inspire much faith that you’re town. Also from my perspective how am I supposed to truly know I’m not going toward town win con by stringing you?

We're not playing like town, we're playing like a lyncher that thinks their lynch target might happen to be scum. Critical difference.

If you thought about setup spec for more than 30 seconds you'd either have to know we're town based on likely balance or lying about our role. If you think we're lying about our role you'd have to think through why we'd lie about our role in a closed setup with the majority of the game and the power structure still unrevealed. So basically if you turned your brain on you would probably conclude we're town because our play doesn't make sense from scum.

-Chanel

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: numbers

[Channel Fireball]

I rolecopped him last night and found out his role is that of bounty hunter

You're a priest that can rolecop?

Okay weird

Anyway ARO is whisperer

I guess the outlaw has to be scum?

[Channel Fireball]

I need town to win, and i need to identify the true whisperer (presumably sky) at endgame

it's ARO, you're welcome

[Channel Fireball]

We need town to win and one of prophet/priest must survive to endgame

you need yourself to be alive at endgame?

[Channel Fireball]

im town and the prophet needs to correctly id me as the true whisperer to win

is your role name "true whisperer" or "whisperer" because we rolecopped ARO and it said he was "whisperer"

[Channel Fireball]

I chose Baezu Leaf, and their claim checks out. They win by staying alive until the end of the game, or if a certain player survives until the end game.

I guess this is consistent with them saying that "priest" must be alive at end of game?

[Channel Fireball]

I want to kill CF with a fire leaf

why?

[Channel Fireball]

We're Bounty Hunter that has to either kill or be on the lynch wagon on the Outlaw

[Channel Fireball]

ARO is town, and that’s proven with a CF flip.

ScumCF targeted ARO, and had no recollection of numbers.

Aro is town, CF is scum.

CF today.

~FL

lol Boon are you high?

[Channel Fireball]

FL r u high

great minds

[Channel Fireball]

he said he had a lyncher on him so he thought he was our target, I don't really see what's so complicated about it?

[Channel Fireball]

but who's the outlaw ; everyone claimed already

Not ARO or Baezu Leaf

Is there a list of all the claims somewhere now?

[Channel Fireball]

CF: Bounty Hunter

Baezu Leaf: Priest
ARO: Whisperer Scum

Possible Outlaws:
Pine -Claims Bandit guard?, skitter30 -claims whisperer lyncher thing?, Skygazer - claims whisperer, Menalque -"royal" guard, Elements - also "royal" guard, Dr Easy Bake - also claims "royal" guard?, gobbledygook -- can't find this claim rn

what was gg's claim again?
otherwise I'd assume it's one of the three "royal" guards?

[Channel Fireball]

OK so that's too convoluted to be fake so yeah it's one of the three royal guards

[Channel Fireball]

if we lynch inside Mena/DEB then damsel can still get wincon, I can rolecop the other out of Mena/DEB tonight, if elements is the outlaw then I'll give GG the damsel win over mine and we can just lynch ARO to end?

I'm assuming the outlaw is town that has some sort of wincon that requires them to not reveal and survive or something, I don't see why the mod posts that if they're scum

pedit: I guess, but I kinda feel like the mod spewed the game ending with the ARO flip.

[Channel Fireball]

I mean Chenni can't be the outlaw because I rolecopped them and the mod said they weren't the outlaw

So the outlaw is probably town that has a "don't reveal" wincon or something

[Channel Fireball]

Only 2/3 bandits are confirmed, I still have to find the third to win.

so your role implies there's a third bandit role?

[Channel Fireball]

Of the three I think elements is the most likely real Royal Bodyguard

[Channel Fireball]

Do the Royal BGs need to be alive to name the three bandits? Like isn't their alternate wincon more reliable lynching inside the fake Royal BGs today before game end?

[Channel Fireball]

VOTE: DEB

[Channel Fireball]

"Based on their conduct?" what are you talking about?

[Channel Fireball]

Also why did you not just call the game when it was beyond compromised?

[Channel Fireball]

I mean fireball basically took a break from the site they were annoyed enough at this game. What are you talking about that I "stopped playing"? You mean after the point that the game was unwinnable because all of the scum had scumclaimed?

I mean it's true that some people still had wincons but basically the scumclaim made it impossible for my slot to win once the vig shot was gone. so I think it's pretty rich that you're complaining about my play

I mean I was already done with this site before this game so I don't really know what the point of a boycott would be or why you're being melodramatic. But saying that I stopped playing doesn't really make sense when the only wincon was town agreeing with me to lynch an IC who then would have to lose the game which is... Like quasi bastard at least.

[Channel Fireball]

Yes and? I wasn't saying it was wrongly advertised I was saying it was lost and complaining at someone because they stop playing a lost game is dumb

[Channel Fireball]

and I didn't even stop playing lol I just recognized it was unwinnable

[Channel Fireball]

I don't think you're a bad moderator. I think this setup didn't work but generally I just think people can learn from setups that don't work. I might have missed some stuff Fireball said I guess

[Channel Fireball]

Like I think having any extra wincon would be a big challenge that could have a big impact. "You must be on a wagon that lynches a scum." Doesn't sound too flashy but even an extra thing like that can have a big impact on how mafia plays. Making everything lyncher/quasi lyncher/ role guess for win I think meant too much of the game was incentivized to not play like town which made the game frustrating. I think the core premise (mafia with extra conditions) can be cool but I think this went a bit too bastard to still be fun evenly. *shrug*

[Channel Fireball]

Actually I think making the slot die if the vig doesn't go through would have been fine; the annoying thing was not being removed from the game after win was no longer winnable but also it no longer being winnable being unclear. so you're sitting in a game you're like 75% sure you can't win but technically would be throwing to just let yourself get lynched in. So even the premise of the role maybe could have worked, just making a one-shot win condition that doesn't remove you from the game if it fails needed to be tweaked in a big way

[Channel Fireball]

Beyond "as town you have to vig the ic" being kinda ehhh as a premise beyond that

[Channel Fireball]

Looking at what fireball said she was pretty clearly pissed but I kinda don't see why it was an unreasonable reaction to the situation

[Channel Fireball]

It had "Leaf" in the name

[Channel Fireball]

Yes, we broke the setup. Yes, the balance could have been better. But the setup was original, creative, and downright fun to play. EP deserves Scummy consideration.

No it wasn't...? The entire scum team conceded for reasons that were directly tied to the mechanical design of the setup. "Interesting" doesn't mean "good". Nominating this design for a scummy is presenting something as a positive example when that example really didn't work? Like this setup needed a lot of work to be good. You can't just write off balance when the reason the scum team imploded had a lot to do with one of the scum team having half the game as lynchers on them and them having no nightkill. You can't say the setup was good when it clearly felt very tilting. Two different people basically want to leave the site in part because of this game so I'm sorry you can call my slot butthurt all you want but saying this game is scummy worthy just makes you seem confused on what makes good design.

Like I disagree with even the more subtextual point here. You seem to want to say that mods should take more risks. That is the opposite of the sites problem right now. The site's problem is that too many mods are creating setups that have very poor game feel in execution. There are too many setups taking too many risks with too little review right now, which is why wins and losses very often feel arbitrary or more based on pregame design than actual play. This setup tried to add a lot of bells and whistles but let rotten elements slip through. That the game was advertised as bastard but it still looks this bad is jarring.

[Channel Fireball]

I think they should have just replaced out instead of whining about the game.

When Fireball correctly realized we were in a lost position, she stopped playing the game and effectively did replace out. She hasn't even looked at the game since she said she was done with it. The nice thing about hydras is that if one player quits the other can play it out, so I don't really see why you're complaining about whining. I feel like my points here were pretty constructive, and I think telling someone that they should replace out simply because the game is unwinnable is saying you think someone should replace in to an already lost game. That's not what the replacement queue is for lol

[Channel Fireball]

But fireball did disengage with the game. Fireball stopped playing and as far as I know she's not even checking the site. So it seems like you're frustrated with Fireball but expressing your frustration to me when pretty much all I did was ride out the game after she left? Random. And ultimately all she did was tilt replace out so...

I mean theoretically the game was winnable, yes. Fireball said the game was theoretically winnable but it was not practically winnable without town deciding to award our slot a win over ic gg. That's a remote enough win condition that most people will leave. I don't see why you think the claim was a misplay. The claim was the only remaining wincon (if you are not assuming bounty target is town and has to survive). Since we didn't know the ic had a survivor wincon, we had to play toward the idea that the bounty target could win with us. So you're acting like we threw when we were just making assumptions necessary to continue playing to wincon, i.e. making assumptions that allow for a win still being possible in an otherwise lost game.

[Channel Fireball]

I would like to precise since we got criticism for not replacing out and complaining about a lost game.

We discussed about replacing out, and we decided it would be outright unfair to replace out, to subject someone to a game they cannot win. I think the much worse alternative would have been to replace out and make the person replacing us realize that they cannot win. And yes, that is frustrating and anyone would have complained at our place. It's natural to feel frustrated when you already know you absolutely cannot win at all.

I don't think this game was a failure, for all that's worth, but as others have mentioned the game design inherently was problematic in a few ways. Could use a lot more polish in terms of design. Apologies for losing my temper this game, but it was hard not to.

- Fireball.