Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Klick]

VOTE: Nippleflips because I love your name

VOTE: Iconeum
If you love their name, how did you get it wrong?

[Klick]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Why switch from one RVS vote to another RVS vote?

[Klick]

Correct, Billy. It's not typical to switch from one RVS vote to another, because typically the goal is to get out of RVS as quickly as possible. I think it's a scumtell that you're extending RVS.

[Klick]

Tbf I'm probably grasping at straws a bit, I've drank a bit too much tonight lol. But this game is stalling and needs to go somewhere

[Klick]

That's the whole point tbh, RVS is pointless but it's used as a starting point to get into actual game talk. I try to do my best to find something, anything, to work with from RVS. Though talking about it in this meta way probably invalidates a fair bit of that.

Someone come chat with me, I'm town and I feel like I can make myself fairly obvious town in this state lmao

[Klick]

I'm a bit sobered up now

VOTE: Tchill

He knows why

Did you explain it to him in PT? Is that how he knows?

I know this was just banter, but I'm curious: what do you think the Mafia are talking about in their PT this early in the game?

[Klick]

You know what is a more solid foundation than random content? Non-random content.
You could easily have a pre-designed list of things to discuss during RVS regardless of your alignment. It's much harder to fake actual content as scum.

[Klick]

The only thing that binds players to their alignments in Mafia is the game itself. Therefore, the only way to obtain reads is to talk about the game.
RVS is not talking about the game - it is random (by definition) and has nothing to do with your alignment.

We're already on the right track for the most part. Just talk about what's going on - if you're town, it's really not that difficult.

Your tone in your last few responses to me comes across as oddly conflict-driven. May I ask if there's a reason for that?

[Klick]

@Mod: Could you prod Kop and Robbvna?

[Klick]

Don't feel too much pressure to change how you're playing. If you're town, just do what seems right to you. Don't worry too much about experience - it's helpful to have a fresh perspective on the game. Site culture leads to a lot of people having the exact same perspective on things, and that leads to a stale meta where it's hard to get reads.

I'd still love to hear your response to this, though:

VOTE: Tchill

He knows why

Did you explain it to him in PT? Is that how he knows?

I know this was just banter, but I'm curious: what do you think the Mafia are talking about in their PT this early in the game?

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I'm happy with a starting townblock of myself/Icon/Billy.

[Klick]

It's not a long-term commitment, but I'm happy enough with the two of you to go with this right now.

Townblocks are abstract concepts anyway, they don't have rules

[Klick]

Game-Specific Info

• 2 week day phases, 2 day night phases.
  
• Majority lynches only.
  
• Mafia daytalk is disabled.

They're not talking about anything.
That's why I asked, I figured mafia!Billy would've said "oh maf ain't talking they have no daytalk"

That's why I asked my original question to Billy and why I have him as town now.

[Klick]

The convenient part of being a relatively new player is that people can get reads on you that they might not necessarily get on a seasoned member of the site!

Based on skimming Billy's first game and seeing his personality so far in this game, I don't think his style would be immediately faking a townslip when he draws scum here. Enough about this situation looks genuine that I'm satisfied putting Billy solidly in the town pile.

[Klick]

VOTE: Kop

[Klick]

VOTE: Tchill

He knows why

Did you explain it to him in PT? Is that how he knows?

In making the claim that Billy could be scum, you would need a plausible explanation as to why he would make this post as scum The main reason I townread him is because I believe this post comes from town far more often than it comes from scum.

Can you explain what you think his scum motivation is there, Tchill?

[Klick]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
This game shows precedent for Billy acting this way as town. He's already discussed the fact that he was scumread for this before. What's different in his behavior here that makes you think it's an act?

And yeah, as I said before, I townread him because he didn't seem to be aware that scum don't have daytalk in this game. In order to think he's scum, you'd need to think he purposefully faked that. And that doesn't seem to be in line with his personality imo.

[Klick]

I’m not buying the billy thing. He’s got a D1 pass from me. Rn it feels like Tchill is trying to take attention away from himself & nit pick on a newbie

I wanted to wait a bit, but yeah I'm getting the same vibes from my own interaction with Tchill. A lot of what he gave me was surface-level in a way that felt disingenuous.

VOTE: Tchill13

[Klick]

Tchili mid page 8 is either showing genuine Townie emotion or is a skilled scum player - it reminds me of my own frustration in past games.

I understand this point of view and I agree that it's genuine emotion, but I'm interpreting it as someone feeling they are being scumread for poor reasons. It reminds me of my own feelings as scum occasionally.

[Klick]

I'm assuming you'll get to this eventually A50, but the post you see as a townslip by me is me trying to assess the validity of Billy's townslip.

[Klick]

Yes.

[Klick]

Consider it a lesson, Billy - always make sure you're not accidentally placing a hammer vote!

I've been skimming but not intently enough to have much new to add. I still feel as though Tchill is a solid lead compared to other options.
Really not satisfied with Kop's most recent post. It reads as though he looked at the last post in the thread and decided to sheep it because it looked competent without actually reading any amount of the thread. I want to say it's a towntell to do this and that lurker!scum would try a bit harder. But that's not enough to justify not lynching a slot that is bringing down the game. I'm fine with at least a claim from Kop('s slot).
A50's content so far is fine, looking forward to seeing more.

[Klick]

V/LA for a few days.

Something has come up outside of this, I'm sorry.

[Klick]

Not gonna happen. Trust me. Ali is not available to lynch here. Not without an explicit guilty on him.

Is there a reason for this outside of a townread? Because this sounds an awful lot like 'because she's Alisae' which isn't good enough to give someone immunity D1.

[Klick]

Never mind, hadn't read further yet.

[Klick]

Luca, a lot of your townread on me seems to stem from the fact that you didn't think I'd bring as much attention to myself as I did early on. How does that contrast with your view of Alisae's play?

[Klick]

Fuck sake, I remember why I stopped playing this game now.

(this post isn't intended to cause anyone any harm or be intentionally hurtful)

I almost replaced out when I saw alisae replace in.

I hope you keep playing. Just ignore the tunneling and vomit posting.

I also share this sentiment, for what it's worth. Seeing 10+ pages of 'Luca is obvious scum why isn't he lynched yet also I'm just trying to piss him off' has really killed any chance I have of catching up any time soon, considering my current circumstances.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I think Tchill's progression lately has been town. He seems to have a motivation behind his posting that aligns more with finding scum than what I'd imagine he would want to do as scum right now.
I want to look into Alisae's meta next chance I get, because multiple people have said this is her town game and I want to confirm that for myself before accepting it as fact. Could those who have made that claim go into more detail about the differences between this game and Alisae's scum game?
I tried looking into Luca's meta earlier because I felt as though a lot of what he was getting pressured for was a playstyle quirk. I'd like to look at it more before making any conclusive statements.

But for the most part this has been blips of 10-20 minutes or so of looking at things when I get a chance. A close relative has fallen ill so this isn't at the top of my priorities. Still, I'll do what I can.

[Klick]

Klick
Billy
Datisi
Tchill
Icon

Alisae
Luca
A50
Emperor

Top is town to the point that I'm not interested in lynching anytime soon. Bottom is what's left. Datisi in particular has looked townie in her interaction with Icon - her motives in that exchange clearly seemed to be sorting Icon over anything else in a way that seemed genuine.

Also, thanks Ali. I'll have my own look soon.

[Klick]

I'm not closed to voting Luca atm, but equally I'm not really around to chat for a few hours at least

[Klick]

My biggest hangup about that reasoning is that based on my reading so far in Luca's meta, this seems to be largely a personality tell and I don't feel heavily convinced that he wouldn't use this overly logical reasoning as town.

[Klick]

I started from the top in his thread ISO - there were a couple of town games and a scum game. I'd like to do more.

[Klick]

and as for him wanting to be correct here?
I'm not quite sure why you need meta for that.

I'm not seeing the argument from 'not wanting to be right' to be honest. But I can see the thing you're arguing next to that, that he's far too concerned about how he's coming across in everything he's saying. Especially lately he has stopped scumhunting to take a lot of time explaining why you're wrong.

The problem is that I can see a plausible town motive for it (that being that he's just really stubborn and you needled him in just the right way to set him off). But from an overarching perspective I do think it's a scumtell.

I'll chat about Emperor/A50 later. I haven't really given any mental attention to most of A50's posts since they replaced in tbh, so it'll do me good to give them a proper read.

[Klick]

im not good enough to push my scum partner out of the blue and make it natural. also I might add in my first game of not having day chat in a game of mafia

VOTE: Emperor flippyNips

[Klick]

That's L-1.

[Klick]

Sorry Ali I'll be better tomorrow/poooossibly later tonight if the game is still in Day Phase, I haven't forgotten the stuff I need to respond to

[Klick]

UNVOTE:
Provable claim fair enough

[Klick]

Lmao hadn't finished reading
VOTE: Emp

[Klick]

Consider it a lesson, Billy - always make sure you're not accidentally placing a hammer vote!

I've been skimming but not intently enough to have much new to add. I still feel as though Tchill is a solid lead compared to other options.
Really not satisfied with Kop's most recent post. It reads as though he looked at the last post in the thread and decided to sheep it because it looked competent without actually reading any amount of the thread. I want to say it's a towntell to do this and that lurker!scum would try a bit harder. But that's not enough to justify not lynching a slot that is bringing down the game. I'm fine with at least a claim from Kop('s slot).
A50's content so far is fine, looking forward to seeing more.

How was he bringing down the game? How is it possible for one inactive player to bring down the game?

In a 9p game that almost certainly has two scum, one inactive slot greatly reduces interactions. If Kop's slot is scum, then we were missing interactions from half the scumteam for the entire game up to that point.

[Klick]

Icon, claim your result.

[Klick]

Why don't you have a result Icon?

[Klick]

Luca a decent chunk of the stuff at the end of your post about me seems to be about my scumreads being weak/unconvincing at the end of D1; but if you read the sentence right below my reads list:

Klick
Billy
Datisi
Tchill
Icon

Alisae
Luca
A50
Emperor

Top is town to the point that I'm not interested in lynching anytime soon. Bottom is what's left.

The four people at the bottom weren't scumreads in any sense other than PoE.

[Klick]

VOTE: Iconeum
Really not buying that.

[Klick]

I propose a massclaim. If enough people agree to one, I'm fine to start.

[Klick]

Your responses read like you thought I was a Tracker or a Watcher or something similar and limped into an Alisae investigation as a result.

PEdit: Icon claimed Cop in the middle of D1 - I didn't 'out' him.

[Klick]

I propose a massclaim. If enough people agree to one, I'm fine to start.

on d2? Datisis has already claimed VT. 2 other VT's have died. 7 ppl left 1 is VT. 6 players that we dont know about. if we have 2 scum then thats 4 slots scum dont know about and you want to eliminate that advantage for town on a day where if we mislynch we go to MYLO?

This reads like you know Datisi is town?
With a claimed Cop I think a massclaim is completely reasonable.

[Klick]

fine i'm gone for the weekend anyway

hardclaim cop

have fun iso'ing me

[Klick]

And yes, 'why isn't Icon dead' is a very valid question.

[Klick]

Protective being on you isn't a big risk. All it does is change LyLo into MyLo, which is arguably better for scum.

Are you still viewing the thread Icon?

[Klick]

What, specifically, did you get last night as a result? You say you didn't get a result at all? Answer quickly please.

[Klick]

What motivation was there to fakeclaim Cop?

[Klick]

I didn't miss your claim, and I was keeping up surprisingly well all things considered.

Humor me?

[Klick]

I'm not going to answer your question for you. I'm not convinced you have any legitimate reason to fakeclaim as town in that circumstance. I can think of pretty good reasoning as scum.

[Klick]

If you're telling the truth, this would be the second time town needlessly lied about their role in this game and there's a large part of me that really doesn't want that to be the case.

[Klick]

I'm not going to answer your question for you. I'm not convinced you have any legitimate reason to fakeclaim as town in that circumstance. I can think of pretty good reasoning as scum.

If you're telling the truth, this would be the second time town needlessly lied about their role in this game and there's a large part of me that really doesn't want that to be the case.

it's not needlessly lying

it put an unconfirmed Ali in a very uncomfortable spot at that moment and that is what i was trying to achieve

This is also achieved by claiming Town Loyal Mailman - which is apparently your role.

Try again.

[Klick]

You still haven't given sufficient town motivation to lie.

[Klick]

Right. Satisfied with the fact that TOWN-Loyal-Mailman!Icon has zero reason to claim Cop D1. The reasoning we've finally gotten from Icon has come far too late to be his legitimate reasoning at the time - he would have given it ages ago in this questioning.

Tchill is town because he didn't notice Icon's claim at all - it would have been a talking point in their PT if they were buddies.

[Klick]

You claimed to have expected to die last night though. You weren't thinking about survival.

[Klick]

Tchill I think we use very different methods of scumhunting, but I think they're equally valid. That isn't to say either of them are perfect! But I think we do things differently and that's okay, probably good even.
I've had a lot of trouble gelling with your line of thinking all game, but I'm just gonna give it a pass as you doing things your way.

[Klick]

You claimed to have expected to die last night though. You weren't thinking about survival.

so you establish that i wasn't thinking about survival but i am scum? hah

With any amount of interest in reading into the context of those two sentences, you would realise that I'm talking about surviving the night.

[Klick]

Spoiler: My questioning of Icon

What motivation was there to fakeclaim Cop?

What motivation was there to fakeclaim Cop?

were you actually reading D1?

it seems you even missed my claim, so did you go through all of it? if you did I'd think you know why

What motivation was there to fakeclaim Cop?

think about this. what motivation do I as SCUM have to fakeclaim cop?

I'm not going to answer your question for you. I'm not convinced you have any legitimate reason to fakeclaim as town in that circumstance. I can think of pretty good reasoning as scum.

If you're telling the truth, this would be the second time town needlessly lied about their role in this game and there's a large part of me that really doesn't want that to be the case.

it's not needlessly lying

it put an unconfirmed Ali in a very uncomfortable spot at that moment and that is what i was trying to achieve

a good reason to fakeclaim cop as scum? i want to hear about this. it would guarantee a scum dying before lategame simply for being alive

also it's not really a fakeclaim

I'm not going to answer your question for you. I'm not convinced you have any legitimate reason to fakeclaim as town in that circumstance. I can think of pretty good reasoning as scum.

If you're telling the truth, this would be the second time town needlessly lied about their role in this game and there's a large part of me that really doesn't want that to be the case.

it's not needlessly lying

it put an unconfirmed Ali in a very uncomfortable spot at that moment and that is what i was trying to achieve

This is also achieved by claiming Town Loyal Mailman - which is apparently your role.

Try again.

okay sure kill me

if you truthfully think i am going to claim COP of all things as SCUM, you don't know what you are doing

why would I even claim anything at all at that time as scum? i was under little to no pressure. and COP of all things

You still haven't given sufficient town motivation to lie.

you say it's a lie, i say its not

really

a lie. My role basicly works like a cop, only with more flavour to it.

If I claim loyal mailman, there's gonna be extremely little doubt that it is in fact true. Claiming cop at that time with the pressure I was under would at least convince some that it could be a fake claim that could make the difference in my survival

my goal was to mess up Ali's thinking

This sequence doesn't happen if Icon is telling the truth. Town!Icon answers my question immediately and with a consistent answer. Because town would have had a specific thought process in fakeclaiming that they could reference back to.

Scum!Icon flails, discredits, and eventually fumbles together a couple of semi-passable reasons for their behavior because they didn't have any town motivation to fakeclaim in the first place.

[Klick]

I think there's merit to holding off on lynching Icon for today, if only because if he's town it's positive EV with him getting another result. But I'm struggling to see him being town here.

Talk to me about Luca? I disliked his flip on his read of me today - with me being one of his stronger townreads D1, I'm confused by the 180. He's used a few of the same posts he used to townread me to now scumread me. His lynchpool is me/LUV/A50; I'm town, and I'm fairly confident the LUVslot is town. There's also an implicit townread on all of you/Datisi/Icon that's just kinda there.

[Klick]

That's fine

[Klick]

In order to assume Icon is town you have to have a scumteam that chooses to kill Alisae over a claimed Cop. The options for that are slim, methinks.

[Klick]

{Klick, Billy, Tchill} - I really think these are town
{Datisi, A50} - If I'm wrong somewhere, maybe it could be on one of these, but re-evaluating here is probably something I want to focus on when I have flips to work with. atm I don't think I'm wrong.
{Flippy} - Could be town but leaves room to be desired
{Luca} - Scum

I'm excluding Icon cuz cop claim I don't see any real reason to focus on that slot.

These reads are looking very close to mine atm.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone on her townlist kills her over a claimed Cop last night.

[Klick]

I propose Town directs Icon's N2 target.

[Klick]

Unless you target scum. Or the NK target. Or you get your buddy to claim they were targeted. Its not exactly foolproof.

[Klick]

I've been unexpectedly stuck at my in-laws for 8 days and am getting the weekend as a break before going back there for an even longer amount of time. This weekend should be good for my activity. Here in a bit ill give this game a solid half-hour.

Heres where my head is currently at:

TOWN
Klick
LUV, Tchill
--- do not lynch above this line ---
Datisi
A50, Luca


Icon
SCUM

[Klick]

Billy was blatantly obvious town.

[Klick]

I'll join the crowd of people waiting for LUV/A50 to weigh in on today's events.

[Klick]

The one thing giving me reservations about Icon being scum is that there are enough people who gave such little indication of Icon's claim yesterday that there might be a scumteam out there that just completely missed it.

[Klick]

I don't like Luca's content today compared to yesterday at all.
I struggle to buy the double standard he's using. His reads are 'constantly evolving' when it comes to his read on me (which was just a strong townread yesterday), yet when I questioned his implicit townread on Tchill/Datisi/Icon, he questioned what game I was reading. I suppose those were reads that weren't worth re-evaluation?
And the progression into his Billy/LUV read looks as though he already intends to lean scum on the slot and is just going through the process to push that agenda.

I'm just not buying his reads progression. And he makes a lot of sense as a partner to Icon as well.

[Klick]

It's already shaping up to be a D2 lynch pool of A50, Klick and Uzi; I think there is a very good chance of there being 2 scum among these three players. I'm going to ISO Uzi next.

Billy was blatantly obvious town.

Is this just based on the ‘test’ or is there something I’ve missed?

I put a lot of credit on Billy's townslip and think it's credible on its own, but it's not the only thing that stands out to me. His reads seemed particularly genuine. He mentioned thinking I was pocketing him and had me at the bottom of his reads list at one point, and for new scum in Billy's position I don't think that's the play he makes. It makes much more sense as new town paranoid of being duped.

PEdit @Luca: 'Explained on Day 1' doesn't cut it when you're reevaluating other Day 1 reads out of the gate D2. It's inconsistent. And for someone whose selling point to Alisae yesterday was consistency, I would expect better.

[Klick]

A50, at the moment I'm between you/Icon/Luca as likely scum, and you're mostly on the list because nothing your slot has done has given me any reason to think it's town.

[Klick]

The one thing giving me reservations about Icon being scum is that there are enough people who gave such little indication of Icon's claim yesterday that there might be a scumteam out there that just completely missed it.

I did. I completely missed that claim altogether.

And allow me to point out (@Ali) that I think you probably misread 618. I didn't get the feeling he was mad at ou challenging his authority at all. Read it again, if you will.

Well, at least I still got a good eye for crumbs.

Wait, I'm confused by this post. Isn't 1194 acknowledging that you saw Icon's claim?

[Klick]

A50, I feel as though the case against Icon is fairly solid. Can you look over it and tell me why what he's done isn't scum-indicative? I could use a fresh pair of eyes.

[Klick]

Iconeum: [...] All in all you don't lynch the ONLY claimed PR in the game. For all we know he could be the sole PR we have here.

Fwiw this is why I really would like to see a massclaim.

[Klick]

Luca Blight: He was pressured for most of D1 (the part after Ali subbed in) yet he didn't stutter or falter. If he is scum I'd commend him for his steal nerves. I think his reaction was well composed and even his anger sounded genuine to me.

Going to challenge your reasoning here. Are these things you can't see a player like Luca doing as scum? I think he exhibits this behavior as either alignment. And that's consistent with the meta I did on him a while ago - in fact, in the one game he seemed to lose his cool, he was town. (Given the circumstances I couldn't really blame him, but l find the contrast between his behavior there and his behavior towards Alisae interesting.)

I think his anger is definitely genuine. But that can come from scum in that position.

PEdit: I have stuff to say about that but got to go now, will respond later

[Klick]

If the claims show very little town power without Icon's claim then that will have an affect on how much I believe Icon.
Like if there's only one protective/utility role outside of Icon then I'd probably oppose an Icon lynch.

[Klick]

And is it worth outing a possible (maybe only) protective for that?

Who do you go after if not Icon, Klick?

Yes? Outing potential protective roles really isn't that negative-EV a play. Especially with how uncertain it is that Icon gets killed even if he's town. And the fact that you've already claimed VT means scum already has a decent amount of info about where roles are if you're town.

As I've said before, I think scum is likely to be between Icon/Luca/A50. If Icon's out of the question, I'd start looking at the other two.

[Klick]

I mean this is a game of mafia ffs. Lies are to be expected…

A game I recently played had a town player who faked a guilty on his scumread, then got CC'd by someone who cleared that 'guilty' the same night and he was on the speedwagon to Lynchville if it wasn't for me stopping that lynch and townreading the fakeclaim. We proceeded to lynch back to back scums and win the game.

It's all about perspective and how you deal with it.

This post should be taken as evidence that Icon would play like this for towncred as scum.

[Klick]

*stands on one foot*

Alright sweet I'm clear, I've never tried

this

as scum before

[Klick]

Why not Tchill?

He's town.

[Klick]

Almost50: That's me. I only have my role PM to argue with (and it's not available to any of you, so I perfectly understand). If I was a bypasser I'd wonder what this slot has done to be TR'd, but I also have the advantage of knowing me and knowing I'm not this passive as scum.. like EVER.

The very first game I checked to confirm this was evidence to the contrary...

[Klick]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=80331

[Klick]

VOTE: Almost50

[Klick]

When did I townread Luca?

[Klick]

I'm VT.

Either we're in straight mountainous or Icon is town.

See, wasn't that fun?

[Klick]

Icon, there was zero good reason to fakeclaim originally (or to claim at all D1 really). Learn from this.

In hindsight considering Icon's town, Luca's reaction to Icon's early play today is solid. I don't think he resists the Icon momentum in that way as scum.

Is it A50/Datisi then?

[Klick]

That's fine, there's a time and place for that conversation.

[Klick]

Tchill probs town as well, scum also don't flip flop like that. They might push it like him, but they wouldn't reconsider or doubt it that much.

This is the main reason my Tchill townread stopped being conditional on you being scum fwiw. He was trying to read you and it seemed like genuine frustration by your actions in a way that scum wouldn't do.

[Klick]

Icon, don't bother mentioning it here, but there are plenty of ways you could get someone to prove they got a message from you without it being fakeable by scum.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

Something doesn't feel right.
I feel like A50's making life really unnecessarily difficult for himself if he's scum.

[Klick]

A50, I feel as though the case against Icon is fairly solid. Can you look over it and tell me why what he's done isn't scum-indicative? I could use a fresh pair of eyes.

I'm sure you do, but I would say it's 50-50 at best. I think we give "our ONLY investigative" another night. If he was scum and we had another investigative they would have checked him on N1, or -at the very latest- would be checking him tonight.

So, Icon gives you a result (i.e. gets confirmed along with his target), or another investigative gets a guilty on him, OR that other investigative dies and his flip is evidence enough Icon is lying.

My fear is Icon IS what he says he is and then we lynch him today and are actively throwing.

Nah I get the vibe from this post that he actually didn't want Icon lynched today regardless of A50's alignment.

[Klick]

I'm going back to the eternal question: what scumteam actually decides to kill Alisae over Icon last night?

Knowing what we know now, scum probably don't have much power themselves considering all we have is Loyal Mailman. They could probably reasonably assume town didn't have much power. I don't think the immediate assumption is that we have a protective with a Cop claim.

Datisi/A50 both noticed and reacted to the claim. Luca claims to have noticed but didn't give any indication of that until D2 (but tbf I do think he noticed - I think he's the type to have read through the whole thread as either alignment). LUV didn't acknowledge the claim yesterday. Tchill actively claims to have not seen it.
But then Alisae's strong townreads were Tchill/LUV/myself. I really don't think they choose to kill her.

[Klick]

I kinda want to lynch Datisi today.

[Klick]

VC 1.5

Kop (4) [L-1]

- Almost50, Iconeum, Datisi, Billy Pilgrim

Emperor flippyNips (1)

- Kop

Tchill13 (1)

- Klick

Datisi (1)

- Tchill13

Not Voting (4)

- Luca Blight, Emperor flippyNips

With 9 alive, majority is 5.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-08-28 07:00:00)

Notes

Almost50 replaces Robbnva.

The Kop wagon supports at least one of [A50, Datisi, LUV] being scum.

[Klick]

VC 1.13

Emperor flippyNips (5) [L-0]

- Luca Blight, Datisi, Iconeum, Klick, Alisae

Luca Blight (1)

- Emperor flippyNips

Datisi (1)

- Tchill13

Not Voting (2)

- Almost50, Lil Uzi Vert

With 9 alive, majority is 5.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-08-28 07:00:00)

Notes

Klick is V/LA for a few days.
Flip will likely be delayed until I’m out of school.

And the Emp wagon implies at least one scum in [Luca, Datisi, me]

[Klick]

Mhm, I'm starting to reconsider it too. Especially since I've noticed something that is either 9000 IQ scum!Luca play or genuine Town. Or maybe I'm just being an idiot.

Did you ever post what this was?

[Klick]

You were so confident in A50/Datisi. From Town!Klick pov, what does it matter which one of us gets lynched first?

Apologies if I portrayed a large amount of confidence, I didn't mean to when I said this:

Is it A50/Datisi then?

In 1820 you said it doesn't feel right. In 1823 you're already back on the A50/Datisi train.

1823 doesn't do anything to express I'm 'back on the A50/Datisi train'. Show me where you got that impression.

But why not lynch A50, when others have already said they're willing to do so?

Because I'm starting to think he could be town.

Pretty much everyone's agreed to bet the game that there's at least one scum in A50/LUV. Why not go through lynching them first then?

Way to shift the goalpost - I don't think anyone has specifically agreed to that. I'm here to lynch scum regardless of how active/helpful anyone here is.

I'm also amused by the fact that you throw this out and then immediately go against it by voting me.

[Klick]

All you've done is complain that you don't know what's going on or complain that you can't do anything at this point.

And you went out of your way to call me someone that's mislynched early all the time and provided one game of evidence.

You decided to call someone out on that and then play like this in the same game?

OK. fair enough. I sincerely apologize for defending you and I promise not to do that ever again.

Who does this post help?
Are you here to play a game of Mafia, A50? Are you having fun?
We want to play with you. But if you don't want to play we don't want you to stick around not wanting to play.

[Klick]

Datisi, 1823 was me taking a step back from my reads and just looking at who had motivation to kill Alisae last night. From that lens, the likely suspects are you/A50/Luca, based on the reasoning in 1823.
There's a distinction between that lens and the one I used when I was looking through A50's ISO earlier today.

People seem to want to lynch A50 through a combination of PoE and him not engaging much with the game. Upon reflection I don't feel that reasoning is adequate.

[Klick]

Honestly team is probs luca/luv

This was the last post in which Alisae gave reads. Does it make you rethink your LUV read?

If A50 (or his slot ) end up being lynched today, and he flips Town, who are your next suspects? Datisi/Luca?

...a tiny bit, actually. I hadn't seen that.
My main reason for townreading LUV is Billy's play and I struggle to see myself changing my mind on that. But with that post in mind LUV seems to at least have motive to kill Alisae.

I'd almost certainly reevaluate tomorrow in that situation, but yes, that's probably where I'd initially lean.

[Klick]

I don't think it's adequate to have A50 and LUV in lylo.

If they're both town, it's the right play though.

PEdit: Basically all of it is Billy's play. I played one game with LUV recently where he replaced out early on as town, and this isn't unlike that experience with him.

[Klick]

Icon is town - we're past questioning that.
I've given my reasons for thinking the LUV slot is town on multiple occasions. You can't minimise that to simply 'gut'.
A50 is admittedly a doubt more than anything, but I don't actually think he'd play like this with a scum Role PM? Especially with the replace-out. This comes from town far more often than scum, in the same vein as your argument towards Icon being Town earlier today.

Lynching A50 or LUV today simply because you don't want them both in Lylo is extremely lazy, at best.

[Klick]

How much of the game have you read gobble?

Still think this is scum Tchill?

[Klick]

You call it lazy...

Look, both slots could be scum. You can't clear them. You call me lazy because there's no content to imply they're scum. There's no content to imply they're town either.

Obviously I can't clear them. But, again, I've given reasons I think those slots aren't the right track. There is content to imply they're town. I've given it to you. You're willfully ignoring it to push your agenda.

Then we lynch scum for sure in lylo.

This assumption is flawed. In LyLo, all of the town players have to agree to a scum lynch. Today, only 4/5 do. Surely that's

more

possible today than tomorrow, especially when the whole town's been slagging off A50/LUV today.

You're also acting like Icon is still a possible lynch and I'm not sure why.

[Klick]

VOTE: Datisi

[Klick]

Iconeum goes next.

What made you want Iconeum to go next?

[Klick]

I'm struggling with a Datisi/Tchill scumteam because of Tchill completely missing Icon's claim. It looks really genuine. I don't think Tchill/Datisi have a conversation about who to kill last night, and then Tchill comes in here acting like he's not even seen the claim.

Can I have your thoughts on that Luca? I'm struggling for a scumteam that looks plausible. Tchill in particular could only reasonably be scum with like LUV imo and even that has its own problems.

[Klick]

Tchill, I'm still putting the pieces together. I think Datisi/Luca is a team that has a decent amount of equity, but I'm by no means confident and I'm not going to sell you a case on Luca when I'm not confident in him being scum. He's been fairly townie today in his own right.

I'm not claiming my reads are infallible. In fact, I've gone wrong townreading at least one person - right now I have Datisi as likely scum largely by PoE (and her play today hasn't been hot), but then I have five townreads so I've definitely screwed up somewhere. But I think Datisi is the best lynch today.


Icon is town. This game doesn't have just a Night 3 Bodyguard for town power, and I'm not going to believe any further claims.
I'm pretty sold on the fact that the A50 slot is town, especially after gobble's claim. A50's play/replace-out straight-up just doesn't make sense as scum.
Billy didn't know that scum didn't have daytalk. And even if he did successfully fool us with that, I don't think he would have replaced out (and continued to be active on-site, at that).
You didn't realise Icon claimed Cop D1. You also came away from that whole situation with a townread on Icon, and I struggle to see that coming from scum.
With Luca, I can't say things are as solid. But he feels like town, especially today. He's made logical conclusions that would also be rather inconvenient for him to make as scum. (why immediately lean town on Icon's actions today? why buy into my poorly-explained reasoning for townreading A50/LUV? it's not

necessary

.)

Datisi is left. Nothing quite pings me as town in the same way that others have done. Nothing she's done would particularly surprise me coming from scum. And that's why I think she's the best lynch today. She's got the highest scum equity.

[Klick]

Those reads are in approximate order of confidence fwiw.

[Klick]

You know what you're right klick. I completely forgot we know everyone's alignments and should just lynch scum. Lol I wish it were that easy.

This post is ringing true right now.

Sorry Tchill, but you're not going to bully me into making a case I don't have confidence in. You got my honest thoughts, I can't give you more than that.

[Klick]

Where did I ever say you had to townread anyone on my behalf? That's a ridiculous concept.

If you think LUV is scum, convince me. You have given no evidence other than his low activity.

You have this odd view of recent events where I've strongarmed you into my point of view. How about you present your own reads instead of forcing yourself into mine?

You seem to want to lynch A50slot or LUV, not because they're scum, but because if they're town you feel they're a safe mislynch. I disagree with that and I've given the reasons I townread both of those slots.

[Klick]

You seem to be missing the fact that I lean town on Luca and that's why I'm not just accepting that he's scum the way you want me to. I'm not pushing Luca because I'm not convinced he's scum, regardless of whatever other theatrics you want to surround that in.

There's certainly enough to work with to obtain a read on the LUV slot. I've given my read, and my reasons. Feel free to engage with them.

[Klick]

I don't have an answer to that that I'm comfortable yet.

If you put a gun to my head I'd say I'm most likely to be wrong about Luca, then you, then LUV, then A50, then Icon.

I'm not pushing anyone else because I'm not confident in the second scum.

How many different ways can I find to say this before it gets through to you?

[Klick]

Again. It doesn't make sense because Luca's play looks town to me. You're setting up this premise that Luca has to be scum from my perspective when that's not the case.

You're right - I have no idea who's scum with Datisi and it's frustrating me.

[Klick]

???

I'm confused - what are you referring to?

[Klick]

You're at least Townleaning everyone except for me. Which I assume means you're at least somewhat confident in me being scum. But when asked who my partner is, you keep repeating that you don't know, because you're Townleaning everyone else.

My point is, if you're at least somewhat sure I flip Red today, I think it's odd you're not looking for associates.

Beyond the surface-level 'would this scumteam kill Alisae last night' stuff, no, I haven't been looking much at pre-flip associatives. I did skim the double-ISO of you and Luca a bit as part of Tchill's game, but nothing really stood out to me one way or another.

[Klick]

I find it odd that you/Tchill are arguing the 'possible LyLo' angle while also arguing the 'you're super confident Datisi is scum' angle. Those two ideas don't go well together. If I lynch you and you're scum, then tomorrow isn't LyLo, is it?

I also have a life and haven't looked at things like associatives in-depth. Considering no one else has done this, I'm not sure why I'm being held to this higher standard.

Hey Tchill, who is LUV's partner and why?

[Klick]

I've been looking for any sort of engagement regarding my reads.

I'm not just going to abandon all my reads because one of them is off base. I think there's some strong reasoning in them. If no one engages with them, they'll most likely stay the same.

Want to talk to me about what you disagree with in my townreads?

[Klick]

For reference, here's a decent summary of my townreads:

Icon is town. This game doesn't have just a Night 3 Bodyguard for town power, and I'm not going to believe any further claims.
I'm pretty sold on the fact that the A50 slot is town, especially after gobble's claim. A50's play/replace-out straight-up just doesn't make sense as scum.
Billy didn't know that scum didn't have daytalk. And even if he did successfully fool us with that, I don't think he would have replaced out (and continued to be active on-site, at that).
You didn't realise Icon claimed Cop D1. You also came away from that whole situation with a townread on Icon, and I struggle to see that coming from scum.
With Luca, I can't say things are as solid. But he feels like town, especially today. He's made logical conclusions that would also be rather inconvenient for him to make as scum. (why immediately lean town on Icon's actions today? why buy into my poorly-explained reasoning for townreading A50/LUV? it's not necessary.)

[Klick]

And it IS because he refuses to push Luca at all even if he feels better about others being town.

Take a second to consider your reasoning here and whether it actually indicates that I'm scum.

Because a far more likely explanation is that I don't think Luca is scummy.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

hi chemist

[Klick]

Thank you for responding, Datisi.

Okay, here's the problems I have with your reads. They all seem weak and forced. They all seem to be based on reasoning that can easily be thrown away upon my Green flip. From my pov, I can see scum!Klick giving out reads like these, TRing everyone other than the lynchbait in order to avoid associates. And once his sole SR flips Green, he can easily throw away any TR (other than Icon, who likely won't even live to see Day 3) he needs to and then not seem suspicious.

This seems far more complicated and unnecessary than just lynching A50 or LUV today. Particularly A50, whose wagon I started and whom I hadn't given any townread on up until I unvoted him. Unless your theory is that I'm scum with A50, but you seem to be more strongly implying Klick/Luca.
Like, scum!Klick would have been in a fine situation a few IRL days ago when we were all gearing up to lynch A50 or LUV.

"A50 wouldn't have replaced out if he was scum." Not buying that. I can buy the slot cc'ing itself being NAI (if A50 was realy that spiteful), but not as a Town thing. And you were literally the one to call out A50's play in 1772, 1773 and 1775. You don't get to call out his play as scummy and then later say that his play doesn't make sense from scum!A50.

That's a pretty strong oversimplification of my reasoning for A50 being town. The big thing is that A50 could have really easily given more content in the tight situation he was in, but instead he gave little. Because town!A50 read the game and gave what he saw, which wasn't much. Go read A50's ISO and tell me that's scum faking half-assed reads.
And yes, I think the replace-out was town. He was upset that we were trying to make him play the game. That's not a scum mindset when you no longer have stake in the game.

Billy's TR's main reasoning is that he didn't know about the daytalk, and that scum wouldn't replace out where he did. I've asked you if the fact Ali called out a LUV/Luca team makes you reconsider, you said a bit then dropped it. Again, I'm not buying replacements as an AI thing, and I believe scum!Billy would've been able to pass that Towntest. LUV hasn't done anything to be TR fmpov, and you said so when you agreed that most of the TR is Billy's play.

Alright, this one I'm going to challenge you on. I have a few problems here.

'Again, I'm not buying replacements as an AI thing.' This reads like you're dismissing it without thought simply because it's in the same vein as the A50 read.

Why

do you disagree with me?
You didn't believe scum!Billy could pass the towntest when it was happening. In fact, you were the other person pushing it to happen/saying he was town for it at the time. Why bother doing it in the first place if you're now going to completely dismiss it? Because the only answer I can think of is because it was convenient for you to let go of your previous townread on Billy.

LUV's play has been bad, and he had potential motive to kill Alisae. Neither of those things invalidate the reasons I townread Billy's play.

(FWIW, I've now basically come to terms with the fact that scum probably saw Alisae's post that looked like a protective crumb and that's why they killed her.)

Tchill didn't realize Icon claimed cop Day 1. This is such weak reasoning that can easily be thrown away by "oh guess he didn't see it in scum PT", especially if you start pushing A50 as his partner (since scum!A50 could've not even told him about that, because he's so spiteful).

'oh guess he didn't see it in scum PT' is a terrible rebuttal. That doesn't happen.

And what else is there to do than to get away from the situation TRing Icon? He was the sole claimed PR. The fact that Tchill came away from that TRing Icon is NAI imo.

We're talking in the first few pages after Icon's full claim, when Tchill decided Icon's claim was so ridiculous that it had to come from town, while others were scumreading him.

Luca "feels" Town. Again, a read that could easily be thrown away if need be. Btw, Luca did an assessment of Billy in 1431, and concluded that Billy's play was more null than Town. And you never even challenged him on that, even though you did later say that Billy was obvtown. In fact, neither of you challenged each other there (already asked Luca that in 2156).

This isn't a rebuttal of the reasons I gave for Luca-town. Look beyond the first two sentences.

[Klick]

If I responded to everything I disagreed with in a Mafia game, I would be here 24/7. I've been playing most of this game solely on my phone at my in-laws'. Even the level of posting I've achieved up to this point has been a struggle.

I wasn't moved by Luca's reasoning there, hence my read not changing after seeing it. I didn't feel the need to make that explicit.

As such, I can't respond to that whole post right now, but I have particular thoughts about the Luca section:

And I think those two things would make sense if scum!Luca, especially with Klick as his partner. He could TL Icon immediately for towncred, since he could guess Town doesn't have much power (due to Mafia's own roles), especially if they agreed to initiate a massclaim. And buying into your explanation ties in to the tinfoil theory.

Why would I push for a massclaim in the first place here? Icon could have just been lynched. Me, Luca, Tchill, A50. The votes were there at one point. There are conflicting goals going on there. Your tinfoil theory isn't as strong a goal as just lynching Icon, who

also

had me in his scum pool at the time. And LUV has also had me in his scumpool in most of his active posts - lynching him seems like a much simpler option.

[Klick]

You start with the premise that people think being town is more fun than being scum, but there's not sufficient evidence that that's true for any decent majority of players (or for the players in this game).

Billy's progression makes a good amount of sense considering his activity trailed off when Alisae came in and rocketed the activity up. Ignoring the tail end, his progression is positive.

[Klick]

That is true, for the most part. But you can’t really quantify “fun” just like you can’t quantify “happiness”. That’s why I look at activity as a side effect/symptom of a person having fun.

Okay, but what conclusions can this draw about alignment if there's not a correlation between alignment and fun?

Billy had a clear and defined reason for the decline in his activity leading up to his replace-out. Him losing interest in the game was a result of the game amping up in activity. That discredit your theory that he had lower activity because he was scum and scum don't enjoy the game as much.

And I haven't rolled scum in ages, probably at least two years. I used to like playing as scum more than town, but I don't have a sample to know if I still feel that way.

[Klick]

I mean, I could say there's a correlation between whether you have an animal in your avatar and whether you're scum. There's no evidence, but you can't say it's invalid.

I almost replaced out myself when I saw ten pages of spam overnight. I trust that that's a valid reaction to the situation that was presented.

[Klick]

To discourage lurking, which stalls games. Not because there's a particularly strong correlation between lurking and scum.

Lynch All Lurkers isn't a good policy.

[Klick]

Why aren’t they enjoying the game? Because they are possibly scum.

This isn't a justifiable conclusion.
In fact, a common reason people cite for not enjoying playing is because they don't like playing VT. And that would draw the

opposite

conclusion to the one you present.

Through process of elimination, I'd have to say Datisi is my top scumread.

[Klick]

I'll probably put my vote back there when gobble has finished catching up.

[Klick]

I think I could just use a bit more info at this point.

[Klick]

If that were true, wouldn't all our lynches be right?

[Klick]

Datisi, right now I'm in a rut with my reads. I'm not seeing things that feel particularly scummy to me. I see towntells I feel confident in, but there are enough of them that at least one has to be wrong.

If you flip scum, it's going to help masses. I'll have a new definitive scope to scumhunt with (associatives with you being confirmed scum), and you have plenty of interactions from both days to sort through.
If you flip town, my options will be further limited. With that and whatever result Icon gets, I feel much better about sorting between ~3 slots tomorrow than 5 today.

[Klick]

I actually think that's rather reasonable? There's no reason it needs to be done today if it could be done tomorrow when we're certain it'll actually be useful. There are better uses of my time.

[Klick]

That's literally the basis behind not doing pre-flip associatives. Did that movement die out sometime in the last few years?

[Klick]

Whoever wouldn't be cleared by Icon tomorrow. The ~ is because there might not be a clear, or I might be the clear.

[Klick]

But who is Datisi's partner?

[Klick]

GIVE ME TWO GODTURKEY DAYS FTS

hey dude did you see everyone unvoting? you've been granted your goddamn time but are AGAIN complaining about other players talking game-relevant material?

Hilariously, that question was directly inspired by Tchill asking who I thought your partner was. I wanted to see what his response would be to his own question, considering he seemed confident in a LUV scumread at the time.
So that logic should indicate a Datisi/Tchill scumteam?

[Klick]

Emptyquote, whoops.

[Klick]

Sorry, must have used the wrong term. I tapped the 'Q+' button with my thumb by mistake when making my post, causing that quote to be there when I had no intention of it being there.

I'm not really sure what your motive is for just accepting your own lynch today?

[Klick]

Spoiler:

Dope.

My final guess is {Klick, Luca, LUV} in terms of most to least likely to be scum.

Icon comes on in some hour and a half. He has my blessing to drop the hammer, I've got nothing left to say.

Cool cool.

Welp, been nice clogging the thread with you Luca, but I gotta run now. See y'all after the game ends, and godspeed gentlemen.

God dammit Icon why didn't you grant me the sweet release of death when you had the chance

That's fine Icon, I've already said I'm fine being the lynch if it helps.

I flip Town, who's the team Icon?

*moving vote away from scumread and not onto what Luca feels should be lynched today in A50/Datisi/Uzi

Luca had already said he doesn't think LUV should get lynched

and how much has Luca talked about lynching Tchill?

I mean, he found him suspicious for a while now
But outright lynch, idk

this game is melting my brain

You and me both. That's why I was whining about you not hammering, part of me doesn't want to deal with this mess anymore

Klick, watching you flail from the dead thread tomorrow is going to be

hilarious

.

These posts are what I'm referring to as you accepting that you're being lynched today.

[Klick]

I'm going through your meta atm and you're playing a lot more like your town game than your scum game. You don't have a large sample size for scum, but your reads progression looks legit in this game compared to both scum games I just read.

[Klick]

Yo Tchill you around? I was hoping to catch you on.

[Klick]

Tchill, what are you doing in this game that you wouldn't do as scum? What about your play here should I be looking at and going 'oh, that's town'? If you're town then you're more qualified than anyone else to answer that, so I'm curious what you'll say.

[Klick]

Because it will help me sort you. If you're town that will help both of us.

[Klick]

I buy what you're selling. Particularly that you wouldn't have killed Ali.
It's worth noting that there's not a chance I kill Ali last night either, unless I/my partner saw the crumb. I was in his good books.

Gobble's not scum and I think that's pretty obvious.
I'm ready to accept that I could be wrong on Billy/LUV.
Datisi doesn't feel like scum here, particularly in the last few pages of getting annoyed with me. At first I thought she was being defeatist to try and get townread, but I don't think doing it to this level is quite within her range.

I'm falling on LUV/Luca as a team and I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Luca's read on LUV has flip-flopped enough that I'm not sold on it being coherent.

PEdit: I mean everything you're saying is consistent with the kind of stuff I've read from your past scum PTs I do think there are certain things people just don't do when they're scum that they do when they're town. To that end, meta isn't trash.

[Klick]

Why would I push for a massclaim in the first place here? Icon could have just been lynched. Me, Luca, Tchill, A50. The votes were there at one point.

Are you suggesting that I was willing to vote Icon? Because this was never the case.

The scenario I was arguing against was the two of us being partners. If you were my scumbuddy, you'd have probably joined the wagon as well.

[Klick]

If the vote is between gobble and LUV I'm voting LUV.

But if Icon has a different lynch he particularly wants today I'll sheep it instead.

[Klick]

Gobble's play was probably going to look busy upon replace-in here regardless of his alignment though?

[Klick]

Icon, would you describe your previous experience with gobble as 'trying to look busy'? Because that was the sense I was getting from your posts complaining about him

[Klick]

then he provided a mechanism (that was shit on because it wasn't meta)

You keep saying this. It's a misrep. Stop it.

[Klick]

I've already answered that question. You didn't like my answer.

[Klick]

Have you noticed that my vote isn't on Datisi anymore?

Why are you obsessed with voting with me when instead you could be pushing what you want to push?

[Klick]

I'm getting the sense that you want to avoid responsibility for losing a game you think you're going to lose anyway.

[Klick]

I’m fine lynching in Datisi, Gobble, and Iconeum today. I need to reread this Day 2 to really solidify or disconfirm my dislike of tchill’s play today.

LUV, what about Luca and I made you unwilling to lynch us today? As I recall, I was a scumread of yours D1. What changed?

[Klick]

Aaaaaah, hell Tchill, I had a feeling you were coming around to the possibility of scum!Klick at least partly due to my case? Or at least my pushing?

@icon where is my circus gif

scum klick is possible yes. because of you idk.

i think its because im not confident in any SR's.

Lmfao I'm fucking done. After the shit you gave me for not being confident in my reads. You're full of shit.

[Klick]

Hey, I got a message from Mr. Dragonite

[Klick]

I haven't read yet but figured I should post that as soon as I got here.

That was literally what he told me to post.

[Klick]

I'm VT.

Either we're in straight mountainous or Icon is town.

See, wasn't that fun?

absolout constant shade on icon even wanting to direct the night action

up until the point the mass claim forced klick to hard TR icon

just like everyone else had to.

b4 this the shade was CONSTANT. still looking for that special post.

You're missing the part where I wanted the massclaim in the first place. Literally no one else wanted it until days after I proposed/argued for it. That doesn't fit with your head-canon of scum!Klick.

Yes I'm a VT lol.

[Klick]

[...]

this is the post. Klick is the FIRST person to point out ALI's protective crumb.

No I'm not? It was brought up by someone else, and that's the only reason I saw the crumb in the first place. I'll go find it.

[Klick]

Shoot luca or datisi flippy
Those shots will both give plenty of info

Ali was also not against a Datisi death later on.

Dw icon i’ll make sure u get a result

And not to mention Ali 'crumbed' (loafed) protective

[Klick]

To be more clear, here's a paraphrased version of what I got:

"Hi Klick,

If you get this message, you're town. If not you're scum.
Use the mega secret password 'Hey, I got a message from Mr. Dragonite' in your first post and we can lynch scum tomorrow!

thanks"

[Klick]

I think as a Tracker I'd have probably tracked Icon last night to add validity to his result. I could see Town-Tracker!Tchill targeting LUV here though.

[Klick]

So you're still working under the assumption that the team is LUV and myself?

[Klick]

I'm in England.

Elaborate? Not quite sure how you can get that interpretation from what's happened.

[Klick]

You are fakeclaiming that you received the mail in order to justify not getting killed.

Because...

I'm missing the bombshell.
I got mail from Icon. I'm a bit miffed because there were plenty of ways he could have made this airtight but all I got was a phrase to say that doesn't prove anything. But by no means does it make me confscum.

[Klick]

I'm VT.

Either we're in straight mountainous or Icon is town.

See, wasn't that fun?

absolout constant shade on icon even wanting to direct the night action

up until the point the mass claim forced klick to hard TR icon

just like everyone else had to.

b4 this the shade was CONSTANT. still looking for that special post.

You're missing the part where I wanted the massclaim in the first place. Literally no one else wanted it until days after I proposed/argued for it. That doesn't fit with your head-canon of scum!Klick.

Yes I'm a VT lol.

[...]

this is the post. Klick is the FIRST person to point out ALI's protective crumb.

No I'm not? It was brought up by someone else, and that's the only reason I saw the crumb in the first place. I'll go find it.

Tchill, these two things were major selling points in you pushing me with LUV today. You haven't really addressed them. But you seem sold on the theory despite its legs crippling.

Like, you came in guns blazing on these points, and you're just going to ignore their refutation?

[Klick]

Icon, don't bother mentioning it here, but there are plenty of ways you could get someone to prove they got a message from you without it being fakeable by scum.

i know

i already said what you needed to know about claiming and in what order

This exchange is why I'm annoyed I didn't get something better than what I got.

[Klick]

So I push for a massclaim to fish out a protective so I can kill Icon... instead of just lynching Icon?
Are you saying the massclaim wasn't beneficial for town? Because it definitely was.
You're also saying that I did all this to find out how to kill Icon, but you were saying all of yesterday that scum didn't need to worry about killing Icon.

I pushed A50 via PoE for about five seconds, and then got a bad feeling about it.

[Klick]

I really wish this Day had started much closer to the 48-hour night deadline. I was around and checking all of yesterday, and I had just gone to bed when Day started. I came in here and posted this morning about five minutes after waking up.

[Klick]

And is it worth outing a possible (maybe only) protective for that?

Who do you go after if not Icon, Klick?

Yes? Outing potential protective roles really isn't that negative-EV a play. Especially with how uncertain it is that Icon gets killed even if he's town. And the fact that you've already claimed VT means scum already has a decent amount of info about where roles are if you're town.

As I've said before, I think scum is likely to be between Icon/Luca/A50. If Icon's out of the question, I'd start looking at the other two.

Almost50: That's me. I only have my role PM to argue with (and it's not available to any of you, so I perfectly understand). If I was a bypasser I'd wonder what this slot has done to be TR'd, but I also have the advantage of knowing me and knowing I'm not this passive as scum.. like EVER.

The very first game I checked to confirm this was evidence to the contrary...

VOTE: Almost50

Icon, there was zero good reason to fakeclaim originally (or to claim at all D1 really). Learn from this.

In hindsight considering Icon's town, Luca's reaction to Icon's early play today is solid. I don't think he resists the Icon momentum in that way as scum.

Is it A50/Datisi then?

UNVOTE:

This is everything I posted that you could remotely consider pushing A50.
You can't honestly say I pushed A50 hard, by any stretch of the imagination.

[Klick]

I'm currently rereading. I'm keeping notes and I'll post them in bulk when I'm done. I'd like to hear what LUV has to say in particular before getting into too much.

[Klick]

Have you considered: I've had a townread on LUV?

You are continually lying in your pushes, which is why I keep having to pick at pointless shit. The annoying thing is that normally I'd just vote for that kind of play, but I actually believe you'd do it as town.

If you're town, you're going to have to work with me, because I'm town. I think you could be town. But you're pushing yourself into a corner and it's been frustrating me all game.

[Klick]

If you're town, then it's LUV and probably Luca, for fairly obvious reasons. Luca's been defending LUV for a while now. LUV/gobble isn't completely impossible, but I don't see it.

I repeatedly answered your question yesterday. The answer was 'I don't know'. I wasn't super sold on Datisi being scum for reasons outside of PoE. I didn't have some ideal partner for Datisi. As it turns out, that makes a lot of sense - she was town!

Stop throwing a hissy fit that I didn't do things exactly how you wanted yesterday. I'm getting sick of getting yelled at for giving my thoughts again and again.

[Klick]

wow you can come up with 8/46 posts

and how many did you quote? 2? 3?/48

hold on there dragonite i don't think i've even touched on what's so garsh darn bad about him

Ohhhhhh there we go. It makes some amount of sense now. Well done Icon.

[Klick]

When you keep repeating 'who's scum with Datisi' when I don't have confidence that Datisi is scum then yes my answer is going to be that I don't know.

Pretty sure it was you earlier in the game that said loaded questions aren't exactly town-motivated.

[Klick]

Is it possible to tell us what was in the message you sent to Alisae?

information about my role

also some personal stuff unrelated to this particular game that would make it clear to Ali who the message came from

the request to use the word 'rawr!' in his opening post D2

Would you consider this generic, Gobble?

[Klick]

So 'rawr' isn't generic, it's specific. But posting a specific phrase is generic...

Your point of view in general makes very, very little sense to me, gobble.

[Klick]

I keep hearing that I 'could plausibly' fake this (arguable, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt there).

Why do you think I HAVE faked it? You seem to think I couldn't be town now.

[Klick]

You're missing the point and I can't tell if you're doing it on purpose.

Why is it a given to you that I'm lying? Why am I 'obvscum' because of it? What about the situation now makes it impossible for me to be town in your eyes?

[Klick]

And what would i have to gain from being reluctant to work with someone who tr’s me all game? That is counter-initiative.

If we reverse the roles here and say you’re Town and I’m scum, Then I would have tried to encourage a working relationship with you in order to manipulate you, I wouldn’t have suspected you at every turn and certainly wouldn’t have VOTED Gobble in LYLO CONFIRMING to two people who TR me that I’m scum.

because the guy that TR's you the whole game has voted your scum buddy and he wasn't quick lynched.

this just confirms luca/Uzi imo. All you're doing is making a last ditch effort to push tchill/A50 because you know Klick is your only hope.

You should know this makes zero sense, Tchill. I was getting lynched after a red Uzi flip until Luca voted gobble. A LUV/Luca team can simply let that happen, no?

[Klick]

Luca

A50
Billy
Flippynips
Klick
Icon
Datisi

Looking back, this is such an annoying readslist for my purposes now.

[Klick]

Gobble has shown no hesitance. He was prepared to straight-up lynch me/LUV.

[Klick]

By the end of page 8 I think I want to give Tchill another day. The fact I've seem him getting MISlynched on D1 before for being .. um.. irrational and overly reactive makes me want not to make the same mistake just in case he is town and doing what he does best.. getting mislynched. I would check there if I was an investigative though. (But that's just me)

What an odd interaction. Leaving this one here to sit on for a bit.

[Klick]

So, it's Luca/Nips/Tchill if I had to consider a lynch pool based on PoE, but I don't have a case on any of them, and I may even have reservations on going full force on someone like Tchill whom I've seen play just like that as town.

Does A50 force-feed 'this is Tchill's townplay' to us here as Tchill's partner?

PEdit: I'm saying that because, from a scum!Luca perspective, he can just lynch me with Gobble either today or tomorrow, right? Since Gobble's convinced the team is me/LUV.

[Klick]

Luca, there's not a world in which you entertain a LUV/gobble scumteam, is there? Because without you being open to considering that possibility, it's just a distraction.

Gobble and I were around at the same time yesterday and there wasn't a hammer on LUV. If it's all the same to you, if you're completely sold on Tchill/gobble being the team, I'd appreciate you limiting my options from three teams to two by voting Tchill instead.

But if you're not set in stone, then I think LUV/gobble is a team that deserves at least a bit of consideration. I think it's the least likely team atm, but it's not out of the question.

[Klick]

In other words Tchill, if LUV/gobble is actually the scumteam, then we can't lynch LUV without Luca's help.

[Klick]

Nah, in a scumteam of LUV/Luca, Luca is essential. Him doing the kill would be too risky - if he gets caught, you're an obvious partner to him.
I can see that argument against a LUV/gobble team though.

[Klick]

As for me and Uzi being a team, read Billy’s interactions with me after Ali replaced in. Do you really think Billy would bus me in that situation, given his inexperience and lack of daychat?

This is a surprisingly good point.

[Klick]

When talking about what you'd do as scum...

I'd claim vt during mass and claim something else during lylo.

I just don't get this at all from Town Even-Night Tracker Tchill knowing they are eventually going to do exactly that.

[Klick]

It's like you wanted me to be suspicious of your claim so you could fuck with me by saying 'but why would I do that as scum?'

[Klick]

My claim was never that I read through all of them. I've read through a few. I'm reading more of your meta right this second.

[Klick]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10898749

Only time I ever lie is mass claim and I bread crumb my real role before fake claiming VT.

Where's your crumb from before you fakeclaimed?

[Klick]

No, it's after.

[Klick]

Because you couldn't justify a scumread on Luca? He's been your solid townread all game, like you said. You'd struggle to go back on that.