Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hi everyone. Yay, I recognize Icon and Datisi. Hopefully this time if I lynch Icon it's not a mis-lynch.

VOTE: Datisi

[Billy Pilgrim]

Good point. First icon strips Emperor flippynips of his title then flips the order of the words. I wonder if that means he would flip scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Tchill

He knows why

Did you explain it to him in PT? Is that how he knows?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, I'm confused.

@mod - The post 25 vote count has emperor voting for tchill, but I don't see that vote until post 27. Did you edit the vote count post to account for the updated votes? If so when would you edit the post and when would you not edit the post?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sounds like a plan.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sweet avatar. Though I feel like Tyrion is definitely scummy.

VOTE: tchill13

[Billy Pilgrim]

Pilgrims are ultimate scum. My name however is a reference to Slaughterhouse Five by Vonnegut. I feel like Vonnegut definitely not scummy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Why switch from one RVS vote to another RVS vote?

Because I don't know what I'm doing with RVS. And it all sort of feels weird to me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Klick, I noticed you switched your vote. Does that mean yours isn't random anymore?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I like the wavy guy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Klick, fair. I sort of never got what is going on in RVS. It takes me a bit to catch on in the game. I tend to get no reads during RVS. I like when people start making cases from RVS because then things start to make sense to me and helps me settle in.

[Billy Pilgrim]

This is my 4th game total. I replaced into my first two so I skipped the RVS there. Playing this and another game at the moment. Only my first game Newbie 1945 is completed. I think I kept everything vague enough to not violate the rule against discussing ongoing games.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What do ya wanna chat about? Liverpool are the double champions of Europe. So there's that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@tchill -"purposefully ignorant?". Aside from me saying I don't really understand what's going on in RVS, where else was I purposefully ignorant?

@tchill and Luca - I legitimately struggle with how to discuss my experience. Because I do think it's relevant. I also don't want to overplay it, because then I agree it looks like someone is trying to build in a preloaded excuse for bad play. Now that being said, I think inexperience is relevant as a lens to interpret newer players' play. E.g. if a read requires some level of experience to make, then a newer player will probably need that worked out for them or the read/tell isn't going to make any sense. In my first newbie game I had a level of confidence in my read that wasn't appropriate. When I'm looking at newer players, I now understand that what I perceive as the active newbies typical overconfidence is usually a result of the pressure that other players are putting on them to fit in and look town. After my first game where I made numerous comments about how bad I was playing, I had another town player tell me how scummy that looked. So that I cut out. And in this game I only mentioned that this was my fourth game in response to a question about my experience level.

So I legitimately don't know how to approach this. I'm playing more games (in particular games outside the newbie sub-forum) to get more experience, but until I get that experience, I'm gonna be inexperienced. If it felt like I was using that as a crutch in RVS then I guess that's fair. But RVS to me doesn't really give me much. Cases I can analyze. RVS feels sort of performative.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Klick, sorry, didn't realize that was to me. No idea what they'd be talking about. Maybe how they should interact or not interact?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

I'm happy with a starting townblock of myself/Icon/Billy.

Isn't it a little early for a townblock? I got town vibes from both you and Icon given the curiousity, but a page 4 townblock feels a bit early.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Klick, sorry, didn't realize that was to me. No idea what they'd be talking about. Maybe how they should interact or not interact?

Is that all you think the Mafia would be talking about right now?

Really not sure what else they'd be talking about.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ooooo someone liiikes pannncakes

I don't know about a town block, but I will join a waffle block so long as it includes Belgian waffles with ice cream.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’ve been waiting since D1 for this Tchill wagon to take off

Any reason why? I voted him for the Tyrion joke. Anything specifically that's pinging you? I thought the purposeful ignorance was a bit of a stretch, but it didn't seem disingenuine.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not really. Just don’t trust him yet. & I know he’s good at deep wolfing

Looking for the deep wolf got me in trouble in my first game so this is not reassuring.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Game-Specific Info

• 2 week day phases, 2 day night phases.
  
• Majority lynches only.
  
• Mafia daytalk is disabled.

They're not talking about anything.
That's why I asked, I figured mafia!Billy would've said "oh maf ain't talking they have no daytalk"

This is really embarrassing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not in one rvs post I can't explain the scum motivation.

But I do see a pattern of "willful ignorance" and not trying to solve much.

The "I'm new or not sure what's going on" vibe is something he's trying to portray imo.

The continual portrayal of my admitted inexperience as purposeful, feigned, or willful is a bit annoying, but this does come off as town to me. Scum!me could be using my inexperience as a way to cover for not getting reads in the early game. My inexperience is what it is. I see why town players would think I have incentive to play it up. So I see this as him trying to pry into this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

It's page 7 and I havent really seen anything that stuck out at me either so I get why we're still talking about it, but from my perspective, inexperience is a fact. This isn't an alt account. I joined about a month ago. I put my inexperience out there knowing that some people think it's a shield. I do it because I see inexperienced players get scumread all the time for things that I think are better explained as inexperience. And I am not a fan of mis-lynches. I've done a bunch of them because more experienced players have persuaded me that it helps town. I haven't been good at getting reads based on mis-lynches, and the only time I've felt comfortable has been in post mass-claim situations in an open setup. So if the read is talking about inexperience = scummy then you're just going to get random results. If you think you can read those wagons then great, I guess it helps town. But inexperienced players are either 1) going to fake experience; or 2) going to acknowledge inexperience. In my experience it seems like both those get read as scummy. I do feel like I'm learning through seeing people's reasoning patterns, so hopefully over time the inexperience won't be so obvious.

As for the discussed slip, I don't know why so much weight was being placed on it. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to say I didn't know what they were talking about at the time even if I knew they weren't talking. I thought it was a weak town tell and don't know why folks would be reading it as a town tell.

[Billy Pilgrim]

At this moment Datisi is my strongest townread. I didn't agree with assigning the townread on the alleged slip and the fact that she's come back around to more skeptically assessing it makes me feel like she's town.

The fact that Klickk is sorting me based on that feels weird. I don't know if it means I'm being buddied there or whether it's genuine though, but I think it's an inappropriate amount of weight.

I'm getting strong town vibes from tchill. UNVOTE: tchill

I have no idea what to make of that interaction between him and Emperor. Though if I had to lean it one way or the other, I'm a bit more suspicious of Emperor at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

At this moment Datisi is my strongest townread. I didn't agree with assigning the townread on the alleged slip

and the fact that she's come back around to more skeptically assessing it makes me feel like she's town.

Would I still be a townread (let alone the strongest one) if I hadn't done the test at all?

I'd still be townreading you. I don't know if I'd classify it as my strongest, but I do tend to weight the with player experience I have and this feels very similar to the other games with you. Now some are ongoing, but I'm getting the same vibes from you in this one as the others. Lots of questions occasional read lists. And in the early game it's light on the reasons. And to be clear, it's not the test, it's your changing analysis around the test that is giving me town vibes.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@billy are you reading datisi for anything she’s done this game that doesn’t have anything to do with other games? Besides the switch in analysis that feels townie to you

I laid out what from the other games felt familiar. She asked alot of questions. Didn't go heavy on analysis and put out reads lists. I started suspecting her in my first game because of it at the end, but she was town. So the only thing specifically in game was the switch in analysis around the so called slip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I really like the way that tchill handled that exchange with Emperor, and then Icon's case. That felt town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I really like the way that tchill handled that exchange with Emperor, and then Icon's case. That felt town.

Anyone that you feel could be scum?



It’s okay if its me...

I'm gonna re-read the thread tonight after work. There's nothing that's sticking out at the moment, but I'm juggling three games in my head so I want the time to go back through it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I went back through the thread. I'm still reading Datisi as town, but I'm downgrading that a bit. She was more active in the other game. The content is similar but the activity is a bit off. Icon hasn't been that active, but he is definitely advancing the game. Interested to hear his thoughts in response to tchill.
I'm town reading tchill at the moment.

I have no idea what is going on with Flippy, and I need more time with A50.

Kop has been really inactive and just jumped in to vote flippy. That's suspicious. Im here for the reasons though.

Klickk could be pocketing me. It seems like the read is only based off the slip, so I'm a bit suspicious of that slot.

So at the moment I have
Tchill
Datisi, Icon
Almost, Luca, Flippy
Kop, klickk

[Billy Pilgrim]

I can't believe this game isn't over yet!! You have Billy Pilgrim & Kop, both obviously REDS, and then their main rivals nowadays are the CITIZENS! Can any of you get a clue?

Cool, another football fan. Who's your club? Please don't say City.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Cool, another football fan. Who's your club? Please don't say City.

I can't say that in public. That would make the scum team one too many.

Ok, my "main" is Nott'm Forest, but since they have not been in top flight for 2 decades now I had to pick someone else to cheer for, and.. let me put it this way:

I'm an Egyptian

! Can you guess which team I fully support nowadays? (Hint: Not Arsenal, El Neny hardly ever plays, and not Aston Villa, as they've just rejoined the top flight and certainly won't be winning any silverware this season either.)

Makes sense that you're a scouser. You ripped off half the team when asking about someone's favorite player.

[Billy Pilgrim]

At this point, the scummiest thing I've seen is Kop. 2 posts across what was basically a week. I'll let that slide a bit because he says he's having internet problems, but he drops back in just to sheep onto the Emperor wagon. And he literally just signed off on Icon at that point. If he's not at L-1, I'm comfortable putting him there (so consider this intent to go there). If he's there already at L-1 then that's enough pressure to bring him back hopefully.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok VOTE: Kop

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait for real? Why would you do that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

We needed to sort him, not kill him.

Pedit:. I tried to count for myself but got confused by the switched votes in between the vote counts. And I didn't think you would lie about something like that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I just recounted and I counted 4. Was I missing something?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't get what just happened except that I now hate Icon.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I see where tchill is coming from with his analysis, but I don't agree with him that this was a low risk look productive play from Icon. This entire gamestate has been convoluted and confused. There's been very little voting activity. The one time that Icon had cased previously some folks went over to Nips. I don't know that there's scum motivation to take that risk in the current gamestate.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If we're waiting on a Kop replacement we should probably wait for that replacement to catch up.

When I was talking about voting history I had meant up to when you started pressuring Datisi. As I remember it up to that point I don't think anyone had 3 votes on them, and that was Emperor.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ugh, missed the backslash. UNVOTE: [\unvote]

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: Kop[\unvote]

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: Kop. Sorry about that everyone.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm lost in this Icon Datisi interaction. I think that someone may have a timeline off, but given how both are tunelling and posting almost on top of each other this is really hard to follow.

As for my Datisi read, this is the first time I've seen you come under pressure. And I can't say I feel like you're handling it well. You immediately jumped on Icon, and I don't see Icon's scum motivation in drawing attention to you, then hopping off when he has some nibbles to redirect to the inactive slot, only to come back to you when the inactive is getting replaced. If Icon is pushing for a ML on you, after he gets bites why doesn't he stay on you?

I'm having trouble coming around to scum!Icon in this interaction. That said, I feel like this wagon built up pretty quickly. Datisi, if you're town, do you think scum is on or off the wagon?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Mainly post 551
I think I had commented at the time that I felt like scum!Icon wanted a sheep, but then went back to pushing me after people started voting me and accusing him of being my buddy?

Mainly his catchup to my reads and discussion, but he's still a firm null

Holy shit alot of stuff happened today. I miss one day at work and there's like 150 posts.

I quoted this because I now see what happened. I got the timeline wrong. I think 419 is the origin of my confusion regarding Icon's push. Tchill talked about 3 votes on Datisi. In fact there was only ever 2. Tchill and Icon. While Luca consistently read Datisi as scummy and put doubt on her, he wasn't voting her.

The whole thing started when Icon cased Emperor in 227, which had early traction until tchill let the air out of the Emperor push and then tchill voted Datisi in 235.

Almost comes into the game catches up and votes Kop. Then at 320 Icon votes Kop. After that Icon then seems to shade Luca a bit because of the Datisi scumread then signs off on it because of the lurking at posts 330 and 331. Datisi comes out with her reads list then Icon goes back to Kop at 344(all of this takes place within an hour). For the next 20 posts Luca and Icon ratchet up the pressure on Datisi and 366 Icon switches his vote back over to Datisi. Then 372 Icon hops back over to Kop after reading the Datisi/Icon/Luca situation as potentially all town. Datisi then votes Kop at 375. All that happened within 5 hours of the original call out for lurking. Kop goes up to L-1. Tchill calls out the kop votes and calls for more pressure on Datisi. So then there's some time where the votes are sitting on Kop then the replacement request happens. Then 477 Emperor votes Datisi for there to be 2 votes there. Now Luca votes Datisi at 488. And it's immediately after he expresses skepticism of Icon for switching his vote off Datisi back at post 371. Then 490 Icon votes Datisi. This entire current wagon built up from 1 vote to L-1 in under a page.
I'm most skeptical of Luca here. I don't see what changed from when he was shading Datisi the first time Icon ran the wagon to this time. I was looking at Icon/Datisi and I missed the person who was sitting mostly on the sidelines. I think when it got more likely, specifically when Emperor hopped on, now he felt he had more cover and came in as the middle vote.

VOTE: Luca



Pedit: as I was typing this monster I saw a luca vote from A50. So this is now L-2

[Billy Pilgrim]

The tone of those Alisae posts was mad aggro, but i credit her vote count post with making me think.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Luca
That is true. However,
1) your ISO analysis made it sound like "everything's still a work in progrss", "it's a slight SL" etc. I was risking being called defensive.
2) I wanted to wait for more material from you to either make my suspicion of you go away or to help me realize how to explain why I think you're suspicious.

Yes, that's my point.

Btw, you say you checked my scum game (where I was ignoring the SR's on me). Have you checked my Town games? Game theory chat and passive questioning is well within my Town game.

Also her ignoring slight SL's also within her towngame. That's why I'm having trouble sorting her. Her activity was mostly questions and reads lists. I felt like her questions in this game were similarly motivated to the ones in the last game with her.

I agree that her Luca case was weak at the time she voted, but I'm having trouble seeing a scum motivation here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Ali, I'm having a tough time reading you. These short posts that just come off as one liners, that does not help me sort like at all. I think the VCA you did was good, I liked the analysis of Luca's content. But after that I'm lost in what seem to be zingers.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I agree that her Luca case was weak at the time she voted, but I'm having trouble seeing a scum motivation here.

You're voting Luca right now though. Is it just because of his vote on me? Did your view of him change after he explain how he got to voting me?

He's my primary read at the moment, not because he voted you but because of how he voted you. If he had that scum read and he wanted to see how you'd react, it should have happened 200 posts earlier. And then he says your scum game is ignoring your scumreads, but you engaged with both Icon and Luca after you started posting again. As it happened, he waited until one other person, namely Flippy, hopped on. I think he thought it was a safe bet that he could bring Icon back over, and then he'd be in the middle of a wagon and just waiting for someone else to hop on. And at that time the momentum built fast. I'm not a fan of how he handled that interaction with Ali, but I don't know how I would have handled that, so I don't think that's particularly AI. But I see an opportunistic hop on to a wagon that can probably get to L-1 easy and maybe up to a lynch, particularly when he has been saying he's scumreading you for 200+ posts and that's my leading candidate. I'm mostly lost this game, but I think there may be something there.

[Billy Pilgrim]

It's the lack of vote despite Luca scumreading Datisi? Ali is this what you mean as well?

It's that coupled with the overall fence sitting. Early on he's making reads, but he's leaving himself ways out of them. It's like he's looking for someone else to sign off. It's like he doesn't want to be out on his own. I get that we were all confused in the early game, but it came off that he didn't want to be pinned down to anything. Like if you asked for clarification he could easily revise it. When Ali had clipped those earlier posts of his it was fresh in my mind, so seeing the way he joined the Datisi wagon when he had been shading and shading and scum reading and then it was a wagon and he could join, it felt scummy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, is my explanation for the timing of my vote believable to you; that I was multi-tasking and phone-posting at the time of the Datisi pressure (I’m clearly not making this bit up as I mentioned it just prior to the drama) and then proceeded to vote the following day when I had digested what had happened and had computer access to properly review what had occurred?

It's believable, but I don't think it makes it better. She was already your top scumlean 224. Then from 345 through to 357 you are building your scum read up, and even quoting old posts (I only play on mobile so I know that that shit is hard). So I don't know how mobile posting excuses you not voting based on conviction when you can build a case and quote history. Then the post immediately before you vote Datisi, you shade Icon for hopping off, and then he hops on 2 posts later after saying he never left the SR of Datisi. Honestly your defense about multitasking and mobile posting may make it worse. Even if it's true, why would that impact your ability to vote your read?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, you’re holding the fact that I was unsure of my very early reads against me? I think I’ve been in the same boat as most in this game in that I’ve had many Townread and few good scumreads. The further the game has progressed the more sure of my reads I’ve become, and I have expressed this.

It's not about the unsureness of your reads. We all had that. It was that the unsureness of your reads was coupled with this seeming desire to have someone else commit to them before you would. I get that the early game reads were unsure. But I find it hard to believe that your posts in the 350 range reflected a lack of "sure-ness.". And given how that played out, it felt like you were still waiting on someone else to sign off.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy who else is scum and why if you don't think its icon sell me on something

I started typing out a reads list, then j realized I'm still mostly confused. I see how Icon doesn't look good in that interaction, but I've seen Icon play that style before and he was town. I like to look at voting behavior more than anything else personally.

A50, why did Luca's answers seem sufficient to you? Was it just the tone?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also, I love that Ali just called Miranda rights Amanda rights. I'm also amused that she basically put Luca under arrest. Is that a citizen's arrest?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy who else is scum and why if you don't think its icon sell me on something

I started typing out a reads list, then j realized I'm still mostly confused. I see how Icon doesn't look good in that interaction, but I've seen Icon play that style before and he was town. I like to look at voting behavior more than anything else personally.

A50, why did Luca's answers seem sufficient to you? Was it just the tone?

okay lets talk voting behavoir
who sticks out?

Unfortunately my work calendar just exploded, so before I do vote analysis, I need to be done at work and have the kids asleep. Probably 12 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok so looking back through the votes, I literally typed vote in the search bar so I think I should have gotten everything.

I feel like tchills is the first vote out of RVS at 149. He votes me and it's based on the tonal tell. This is early in the game, and he's progressing the game.

Post 184, tchill moves his vote to Emperor. He accuses Emperor of whiteknighting me and quotes relevant posts, also complains that he didn't have time to respond to emperor's progressing read, and that he was setting up a mis-lynch in the case of a green flip. This feels very town.

Post 180 - now I'm getting concerned because this one didn't show up on my search. I only found it indirectly when tchill quoted it later. So if I miss anything, please let me know, I thought searching "vote" would get everything but it already missed something. Anyway, this is Klikk voting tchill saying he wanted to wait a bit but saying he got similar vibes as emperor and that he felt tchill was being surface level. This put tchill at L-2. I'm not in love with this vote, but it's early and everyone was sort of grasping.

After the tchill and Emperor back and forth, emperor unvotes at 209, but leaves this "I'll come back to you if I feel like it's necessary.". That doesn't feel townie.

211 - I'm townreading tchill so I take my vote off.

227 - Icon returns and cases Emperor and votes him. The case was built logically and premised around fence-sitting and setting up mis-lynches. This felt genuine.

230 - It's right after that that Kop sheeps Icon which brings Emperor to L-2. This looks real bad and despite promising returning with reasons he replaced out.

Post 234 tchill deflates a wagon that he had started that was picking up steam. Now, while I typed that in the worst way imaginable, I'm actually reading this as town. He's looking for the motivation and pointing out how bad the play would have been as scum.

Then 236 he votes Datisi based on reasons he had given while leaving Datisi. I think this is the first vote on Datisi, and the read and reasoning feels town.



Tonight ended up busier than I expected. I will add to this tomorrow. As of now, this really strengthened my town read of tchill. I will pick this up from here tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Started to post that vote analysis last night but I didn't really have enough time. I wanna finish that because I think if I take time with it it may help me refine some thoughts. Unfortunately I won't be able to get to it for another day.

I will say overall that this game has gotten incredibly difficult to follow. There's so much activity that when I wait like 12 hours there's like 5 pages to catch up with.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sorry I replaced out. Ali kinda overwhelmed me with the posts early on. I have to admit I'm surprised how much credit those tests bought me.