Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

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I've read all the even pages between one and thirty, all the odd pages between one and thirty, none of the pages numbered with a whole number between 31 and 54, and all of the pages whose prime factorization is 5*11

1357 is yeah super problematic post, we need some site culture shift about the "replace in silence" rule on par with how well the don't-talk-about-ongoing-games is well understood; there's this nasty murky area where you may care about whether your slot wins but maybe you don't, you won't be there? and you can post wtf WIFOMY garbage like claiming scum as part of an impossible scumteam. I was reading through my iso the other game and found one of the very few games I replaced, and I townspewed a lot by putting a lot of effort into a final readslist. Equally unfair, to the advantage of my slot instead. I didn't understand any better, I think we didn't have rule 3 yet.
Site culture often starts in the newbie queue, so I want to say: regardless of who flips what this game, don't do 1357 in your games.

I should be caught up on the game in about ~15 hours.

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Ok I bookmarked the thread progress

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I'm not going to read anymore tonight because it's late in the evening for me. I'll be finishing tomorrow morning. I do want to start on an overview of my thoughts from page 1-30. Fair play, I didn't have a role PM while reading page 1-30, Nexus just now instantiated me. I usually try to read fewer pages than that in advance, but I had to fit this game into an alcove in my schedule this way.

I will give some player by player thoughts on what I read from page 1-30 though, which I consider less degraded by drowsiness and/or alcohol.

emps - This is my pet scumread, I found it remarkable how often the opposite was dogmatically stated throughout page 1-30. Many players seemed somehow familiar with his meta, but I saw plenty of little things that seemed scummy in a vacuum with this slot. If he remains my top scumread like I expect, 30 pages is more than half, yeah, I'll probably try to sell you all on emps as an alternative wagon, and after that depending on how Sushi Martyr played page 31-54 your reactions will range from "I don't like your case", to "no case you presented could have mattered enough", to "I see now emps was the deepwolf, now we win, gosh replacements are kind of unfair to scum sometimes", I was going to say I don't get to participate much in some of those scenarios and lament that but geez it's a short tenure for all of those scenarios, but what I'm getting to is, that is pretty fine for replacing in page umpteen of a newbie game that's about what you sign up for.
It's not going to be positional or associative I tell you that.

EpicCreeper06- this guy would have escaped me, good job guys. I don't have much experience with the, I don't know how to do analysis excuse for getting deeper into a game. I am pretty good at catching out some of the other excuses for not getting into a game. I think.

Farkran- dead cleared slot but the question is, when -should- each person know better versus when -did- each person know better. Trying hard not to skip chapters in this book I'm selling you here with some thoughts on emps. skitter had this right pretty much from the start. Teacher had it wrong, but in a believable way suggesting conviction.

Menalque- I would have been likely to mislynch this guy too day 1, but with the special time traveling powers of replacing in I think I would have been less likely to do it if I reselected your day 2 lynch with magic because some of the pivoting and wagon movement day 1 doesn't look like Menalque is scum with Farkran as a greenwagon and Creeper as a redwagon. I think viewing the info from a later perspective + maybe he did scummy stuff later made this a thing that could happen.

Nexus - I have been like vaguely aware of Nexus as a site mod for longer than I can remember and have like vague positive feelings about him without remembering any specific details, including whether I've played with, against him, or under his modding, I'd wager all three happened.

NMSA - his avatar is -not- cute

Apparently based on post 1 he was put in a gamestate where he would have to out both masons to claim on behalf of Farkran? This is hilarious

Selynee - low content total. It all sounds so town motivated but not town machinated. Like, really just putting a streamer up and testing the wind a lot of times, not super high impact. But I don't usually drink in the low-info paranoia when there's a slot with fewer posts but those posts seem pretty townie. Is this player dead? I'm not 100% maybe this was the n2 kill. No wait, NMSA and Farkran were the NKs. So this is still alive. Don't lynch this.

skitter30- So this is the slot had Farkran the earliest. I felt like her defense of Farkran was occasionally oversimplified and glossed over some of the details thought, rather than digging into the real nitty gritty of why teacher and Farkran didn't see eye to eye.

Furhtermore, the timing was poor. Farkran's posting was rather monolithic but she had this progression on it, when little had changed.

I kind of want to BoP her, but not even the nasty, meta-wide, albatross around the neck kind, a much more localized BoP: she demonstrated an empathy and understanding necessary for reading the Farkran slot correctly later in the day, yet voted with the wagon initially. This is the only player I had to stop and take pause on during this writeup, I went back and checked, she actually made a full player-list readslist at some point, and listed Farkran at the very bottom, Farkran 2nd or 3rd to bottom + some lingering concerns about whether some of this stuff is stylistic + yeah I'll vote my 2nd or 3rd highest scumread it's day 1 there's a wagon there, that would have been more plausible. Confirmation bias is, unfortunately, town indicative, but she somehow played day 1 unfettered. And that maybe outweighs a tone that just feels town as she moves from post to post adressing them - in that regard she pretty quickly matched this meta Menalque alluded to that skitter would always convince everyone she's town.

I'd say this is my second highest scumread right now.

Sushi Martyr - Her page 1-30 is not great. But I remember looking at the OP when I was on like, page 12 or something and thinking, Creeper is scum, oh, Sushi might actually be town then. They don't pair together particularly well. When a player stays very reserved and doesn't take many stances, it's often scum indicative. Pretty sure that's how Vi caught me my first game as SK. But this is a little different from SK - a scumteam with two slots, taking few positions, gets more and more unlikely. The quota tends to feel shared.
Her progression on Farkran is much more genuine than Skitter's, even though Skitter may have achieved a more protown outcome with more proactivity. But we're not out to make friends, reward proactivity, or avenge mislynches, or any bonus objectives people ever make up in a game of mafia, we're here to lynch scum.

teacher - This is largely not one of the scummier slots for me. He really didn't get where Farkran is coming from and shows enough of his work that I believe he believes that. His interaction with other slots seems pretty genuine too, though he's probably in the pile of people I think are not reading emps correctly. The guy fawkes mask avatar gives me problems developing a read ngl. He's not so far from null that the upcoming pages can't persuade me but if Nexus enforced Pine-replacement-style and I had to vote today he'd probably just not be someone I'd want to vote in a 5p with one scum remaining. (whereas Selynee would be more of an outright townread).
Throughout the thread he engages people and I didn't catch him slip up and emulate doing town "homework" in this way without putting his heart in it.


ok

this was a bad idea and I better sleep now

this has been drunkpops

[popsofctown]

whats "BoP" mean

also pls point out what posts from me struck you as slightly scummy.

Burden of Proficiency is the concept that a strong player, known to have good reads when playing town, who has scumread a townie or townread a scum, cannot have inaccuracy or ineptitude attributed as a cause of their misread, and therefore need a different cause for their misread, which is that the player is scum. It's an element of the game that can't be extricated (except if you were to play anonymous mafia which has logistical issues) yet is a little infamous/undesirable. Sort of like intentional walks in baseball, the fans hate it, the sluggers hate it, but you gotta do it.

I actually know very little of skitter's meta though so it's a less offensive variant here. I think she was in that Boon game with me, but maybe that was skygazer, those feminine "sk" words, they give me a hard time.

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page 30-56 updates:

emps: Not a lot of change. I hated that "Menalque seems to be trying convince teacher that teacher is scum instead of convincing us that teacher is scum" was glaringly resonant.
Selynee: Seemed mostly like more of the same, I feel pretty happy betting the game on this slot being green and watching the LyLo participants do the same if it comes to that.
skitter30: Maybe she is townier in some parallel universes where she WKs Menalque day2, but I'm not sure I have parallel universes where I WK Menalque day2. With the fiery 1v1 that consumed the whole day kind of everyone gets a pass on accomplishing things day2 or not. Do you guys really have to swear so much?
skitter is one of the slots I could sequencing the mason kills in the order they had. The newbie philosophy going into N1 would be, shoot the player with more experience. The pro philosophy going into N1 would be, shoot the active player. Suffocate the canary in the coal mine. Create a hellscape which favors the mafia. Stage selection is the first attack of the battle. You'll damage the collective performance of the several experienced players so much more than simply gunning one of them directly.
teacher: teacher made several mostly-convincing "circumstantial alibis" about his positioning over the course of the game.
Menalque is 100% sure this player is scum. But I deadsheep ideas, not players, and I never really saw Menalque develop the reasons I am supposed to be scumreading Menalque. His skitter case, which he promised to restate then refused to restate for no ingame advantage, at least had some points to it.
The three components to VT are identifying the scum, persuading others to identify the scum you've identified, and [smalltext]looking town[smalltext]. Was really missing number 2 from him this game. Appealing to a fear that I will lose the game if I don't do a particular lynch is not reasoning or even a farcical parody of one, unless you ever get into one of those metas where players decide they'd be okay losing to player A but not okay losing to player B which is (this word should be reserved for when it's appropriate) disgusting.
Selfhammering really robbed this town of a lot of benefit.
teacher's reaction to the self-hammer and his attitude towards should-be-cleared twilight Menalque seemed off for a town teacher, but I'm not upset enough with it to outbalance the other things the slot has done this game, so he's one rank above being in the lynchpool for me.
Hectic: Oh, wow, apparently Hectic has two posts.
There's nothing wrong etiquette/sportsmanshipwise with claiming "town goon' in your first post for lols, but when that's the only backdrop for his bizarre replace-out post that's even more upsetting.

[popsofctown]

also pls point out what posts from me struck you as slightly scummy.

Getting to this in a minute and I appreciate you keeping it docketed

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Why do you think I'm targeting you? What do you think of Menalque vote?

With no investigations available so far, and not knowing any player from previous games, i'd say both votes are for the sake of information fishing. It's ok, but i'd rather hear some reasoning first. I am personally voting you for picking me, i could have voted Menalque for randomly voting a different player, but you have chosen me.

why are you against getting information from you? if ur town, its good because we find out//think you are town. if ur scum, its bad cuz we find out/think ur scum. why exactly are you against them getting information from you?

sry this is probs worded terribly but i think u know what i mean

Farkran is essentially bemoaning the low-information stage of the game. That should be resonant to emps. Instead, emps criticizes Farkfran for bemoaning a >0 information phase of the game, and recharacterizes a stronger stance against it than Farkran actually took.

i dunno farkran could be lynchbaity town

some newbs just are

This post had no town-aligned incentives whatsoever, as Farkran is not even at L-3 yet. What's the motivation behind the post? It doesn't help him sort Farkran, it doesn't prevent a Farkran mislynch. The only goal is to suggest low culpability for a D-1 Farkran mislynch. Scum would like for there to be about 9 slots that could be lynched with low culpability, ideally.
It'd read better as town paranoia if Farkran was in any danger.

no, at

least

not till everyone has checked in.

Why does that matter?

Oh, I see you

Saving it for that juicy, juicy hammer are you

Everyone has checked in tho

oh everyone has?

wow everyone has checked in on pg 5 of a newbie is this some sort or record

we had no siteflakers!!! (Yet)

VOTE: [farkran/v]

Emphasis mine.
This exchange looks really bad.
emps: We're not at a point in the gamestate where an L-1 is a good idea, that's my feeling right now. One correlated indicator, not all players have checked in. (the use of the word "at least" suggests this paraphrase is accurate. "I'll vote once everyone checks in" is different")
Menalque: Everyone has checked in.
emps: Ok, literally nothing has happened to the gamestate except this exchange, but my feeling that it's too early in the gamestate mysteriously vanished, now I'm voting.

The technicality of whether every user has ego posted is clearly not the key measure of whether there's enough progress for an L-1. Emps had his own measure of that that hinges on several factors, and I think that part is NAI, I think both emps don't L-1 here. But I think only scum!emp is overly conscious of Menalque's eyes on him about whether he'd vote, and he uses technical point as an excuse when his -feelings- on an L-1 shouldn't have changed at all.

"yeah i see you fake hammering and trying to get me to scumclaim if im scum so basicaly doing town shit, also i dont tr u as hard anymore"

This post is so devoid of empathy and so interested in being technically correct instead of sorting Farkran. emps shouldn't be expecting a no-avi player to work out on their own that the fakehammer was protown. But he's trying to hit his quota of being "right" in the thread enough time by posting a characterization of the fake hammer that all the experienced players echo.

idk farks logic is very backwards and weird to me i dont see how they arrive to those conclusions

An illogical unfollowable player should be a nullread, not a slot you comfortably L-1. This again makes Menalque egging him up to L-1 concerning. We all know the possibility of a lolhammer is real in this queue.

also fark, why do ur reads changed based off of ppls read on u?

Like the previous quote's -actual- intent, emp is doing so much indicting instead of sorting, at such an early phase of the game. It's a stark contrast to Selynee's previous post about Fark's inexplicable NMSA townread, where Selynee is seeking to understand Fark and sort him. emps just wants him incriminated enough to die starting as early as when he decided Fark was "scum that could be lynchbaity town".

what do you guys think of farks reads being reactive to everyone elses reads on them?

Again.. indictive questioning.. Which would be much more fine if emps sold us on the point that Farkran was confscum, in that case, convincing everyone would be his wincon as town.
.............

claim

claim

claim

claim

claim

The extent to which he asked for the L-1+intent claim more times and more consistently leans scum for me, although town could get frustrated by it too.


Most stuff after that (much of which is in the pages 1-30 range) is closer to null rather than scummy for emps.

I'm not sure whether I find emps or skitter scummier. I'm hoping I don't actually end up having to choose for the multitude of reasons I may not.

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NOOOO THE ONE THING I DON'T WANT TO DO

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. Like I still think if people’s solce is sushi>me it should be me today. .

Could you explain why this is a thing, teacher?

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How come you don't believe in yourself and your ability to slander skitter 1v1 in the Thunderdome

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I think my brain says emps but my heart says skitter

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My problems with emps seem less compelling once they're written down, my problems with skitter seem more compelling once they're written down.

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Well, I'm not reading that heavily into it and it's kind of irrelevant, if I get to see 2 lynches I like happen this game teacher's rarely one of them and if I'm only getting one it's never teacher.

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You need to roll scum more

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I follow.

I'm still at least a little inherently leery of someone who multiposts like a gangster votes like a nun

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It looks like 559 and 561 would make sense posted in reverse order

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last scum for me is in pops/teacher/skitter

i dunno if i can sort skitter/teacher tbh...

Why is your lynchpool so unrefined? You can't sort -anyone-? Selynee just doesn't even really count anymore as of the timing of this post.

Also, why no interest in metaing sushi? She's probably more meta sortable than either of the ICs

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I mean SEs, sorry

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Are you ok?

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I did not post before I had a role PM (nor draft the post) obviously that would be terrihorrinope

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But I read the first 30 pages without knowing whether Sushi Martyr was town or scum

Was definitely a scum leam

Also read without knowing which slot I was replacing, I think until page 14?

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pops i'm a little bit worried about the universe where scum!you reps in and realizes that you're pretty low in the poe pool and are trying to create a viable mislynch in emps

I developed that read of emps before I learned whether Sushi was scum or town.

of course I could just be lying about that and went back and came up with it once I found out I was scum.

but that's why it is pivotal to an ethical replace process that I not be able to make any posts before I confirm my alignment.

WHEEEOOOO


Could you explain why I ought to read emps as town? Cause I mean. Maybe I'm bad. I think if I replaced into this slot to shade a universal townread and then get mislynched and then for the universal townread to not get lynched anyway the best way to maybe somehow salvage meaning and value out of this whole experience is to learn about reading emps and however many players intersect venn diagram blobbies with some of his ventricles

I wasn't going to sign any of these posts drunkpops but the nature of that metaphor may or may not do so anyway

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oh know i was worried it was going to be "meta"

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Just lynch me and 1v1 teacher then


maybe his gambit of asking to be lynched today gave him enough power for it to be a fair 1v1

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it wasn't a criticism

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no

don't give me townpoints cause i'm minimally invested in the game given I'm a replacement and I'm currently in several other games right now

give him town points because he is heavily engaged in did full read pivots this game and has been playing his postcount meta which would amplify the cost of tossing that away

You'll be really stressed out tomorrow when you have to scumcase that player tomorrow since he's your lowest ranked player for LyLo, I'm pretty sure.

But it's not my problem :hitoshrug:

[popsofctown]

i apologize.

It's just that a meta argument isn't generally applicable to my improvement as a player, so it's like, "aw dang, that explanation is valid but won't help me personally"

If I had also played 3 games with emps before and had come to a different conclusion and then he flipped green here

then

I would have something to learn here but I have never played with him and am not waist deep enough into this one to research

[popsofctown]

yeh

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hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo i see what you did there

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I think the post means genuine trackers as town so it's coincidence tho

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No I think it meant if you're town tracker you can pre-emptively claim like day 2 or so and there's decent probability of doc

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Should I play Eve or Lazarus my next Binding of Isaac run?

Vote: skitter30

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I received Lilith at random because you didn't help me, thanks for asking though.

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If I'm supposed to be townreading emps skitter is the only slot that seems voteworthy to me. It was in my first and second posts. Her stances throughout the game haven't been great. And she has been keeping her options open a lot today, more so than teacher (so has emps, but emps is an angel or whatever so okay).

[popsofctown]

Blergh. Nothings happening and I don’t like it.

Be the change you want to see in the world? As far as I can tell, you're not voting. With as far as I can tell meaning I didn't bother to iso but, like, I don't remember for sure.
With 4 town and 1 scum and a heavily played day 1 it's pretty unnatural not to lynch the 1 slot that didn't actually play heavily day 1. It's so unnatural not to lynch that slot the mafiosi is not taking leadership to ensure it happens, because the credcost isn't necessary to ensure it happens. So the game's going to stall out.

hot take

If you hadn't made day 2 into a cussing match between you and Menalque

This game might have stayed enjoyable enough that ms.net stayed in Sushi Cat's bookmarks and you wouldn't be in this stall right now.

Hectic would have been more merciful, he probably would have selfvoted at L-1, I'm going to cruelly make you guys play responsibility hot potato all the way up to the third vote (well, which might not be very long after the first vote, but please indulge my sadism)

[popsofctown]

I feel pretty sure it's skitter.

If emps is scum then he played his own meta so well that town!skitter strongly believed in an emps metacase.

You guys have pretty good odds with your lynch if that's the shot you take.

[popsofctown]

What a beautiful, beautiful votecount.


I DON'T EVEN GO HERE.

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I am strongly assuming EC ignored his scum PT no matter his partner

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hot take

If you hadn't made day 2 into a cussing match between you and Menalque

This game might have stayed enjoyable enough that ms.net stayed in Sushi Cat's bookmarks and you wouldn't be in this stall right now.

this is kinda :/

i don't think the teacher/menalque thing has much to do with sushi flaking; i think it's p obvious that they flaked, and it's a little icky to blame that at teacher's feet, i think

Maybe
I might have been out of line, sorry.

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I'm pretty sure the self-hammer here is suboptimal

But I want to warm all your hearts with the knowledge that I thought critically about it. And I'm not positive.


I don't know that I have anything to add and if all my arguments sound terrible, maybe I'm only damaging the LyLo sort.

Maybe I'll review Selynee for the 1% hidden knife collection

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I'm sorry again to teacher, no qualifiers

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Have yet to turn up a knife collection

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I am here to drop the infos

teacher told me this slot is unsalvageable and I believe him

deadsheeping is rare and circumstantially it will be even rarer since you and selynee have no experience with me and skitter has 1 negative experience with me and teacher has no experience with me but is probably educated and can detect my 2.9 GPA

I cannot write the secret formula to this game of what the last lynch should be and expect you to follow it. Instead I need to bring you all the different colors of fingerpaints possibly available to work with so that you all somehow get it right in the THUNDERDOME

so I am going to be very information and one of those things is this tangential point that I have a "I should check the scum PT after posting not before" read on Epic Creeper and I feel like you should look through, come to the same conclusion, and townbin/scumbin people based on that

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I mean I am probably not going to be very information very long, not even long enough to correct spelling or grammatical errors when i can repeat them

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This has been how I felt about this game throughout the duration:

Spoiler: OOOO

You guys have been sweet crumbly fun though and I'd queue with any of you again.

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If I'm supposed to be townreading emps skitter is the only slot that seems voteworthy to me. It was in my first and second posts. Her stances throughout the game haven't been great. And she has been keeping her options open a lot today, more so than teacher (so has emps, but emps is an angel or whatever so okay).

a) i don't understand your read on emps rn or where you're getting the 'i'm supposed to be townreading emps' / 'emps is an angel or whatever so okay' bit from

b) disagree that i'm keeping my options open; i've been re-evaluating and trying to sort out the game

My read on emps is that at least 1 town aligned player with demonstrated mafia ability has a townread on the slot, wouldn't drop it in the light of my arguments, and has informational advantage on me, so correct play for the most part is to at a minimum not shoehorn it. It creates this situation where there's a lot of correctness for proxying someone else's opinion in place of my own. It's not satisfying and if you had to do it 100% of the time mafia would be so unfun it is unplayable.

pops i'm a little bit worried about the universe where scum!you reps in and realizes that you're pretty low in the poe pool and are trying to create a viable mislynch in emps

I'm confused about the genuineness of this thought, since mislynch teacher into emps seemed like the percentage play from scumpops's seat.

I'm not sure to what extent I should expect town!skitter to get that reconstruction. But I felt like I was pretty intentional about charting a path where I get mislynched and improve the quality of the subsequent lynch.

No. No posts all day two. If anything. I think slightly town indicative. I think emps is my preferred lynch that is not me so would love you to read that game at some point.

This is teacher's take on Sushi Cat. I'm a little unhappy with his progression on my slot. Skitter's has been more natural. We can take it to be implicit that teacher took Hectic's spazzing to be town indicative, but it's pinging that teacher never wanted to drop a sentence about why that spazz is probably 21/79 (let me be nice to my own slot here folkses) more likely to come from scum, which makes me feel like he's reducing the number of times he has to scumslip.

Skitter didn't comment on Hectic either as far as I recall but it's not as necessary for her progression to pass smooth.

So you think it’s almost certainly the very experienced players (me, skit, emps) not the ones with total lack (Selene, sushi) that lent creeper limp on like he did all game?

That’s my issue. I have a TR on sushi. I’ve accepted that I’m the mislynch for tomorrow when you will eat crow. I’m trying to help town for D4 in picking btw emps, skit, and selynee. I think I would encourage them to go seleynee. Either live with that advise or convince me why I’m wrong.

Oh this too

It's not impossible for this to do a backflip into a lava pool after Hectic's post but addressing Hectic's potential rulebreaking without a word of the alignment inferences on a moment that should totally change his lynch preferences (previously sacrificial) is a little weird and pinging)

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i'm doing colors to lean in to the fingerpainting analogy

do you guys like it?

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ebwop "mislynch teacher into skitter seems like the percentage play"

i think my mind liked how the other one sounded better, like auditorily, but I meant teacher into skitter

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ebwop "took Hectic's spazzing to be scum indicative"

I haven't even started drinking yet I swear

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skitter is africa your favorite continent?

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I think you all underrate Sushi Martyr. She is a Sushi, but also a Martyr. Such powerful duality this world has never known. Everything is framed in terms of EC not being an excellent superbowl quarterback who must not have had a coach that knows how to make someone an excellent superbowl quarterback because the most helpful thing to winning the game is being an excellent superbowl quarterback.

I still prefer a universe where EpicCreeper makes little to no use of the scum PT that was altogether absent from chat mafia because it's the most likely and because no avi. But if I have to indulge the world where the scum PT is heavily used Sushi Cat clearly demonstrates mastery of some skills EpicCreeper is searching for, and so shouldn't work as a partner at least to the same extent as everyone else. I don't know why the player who called out NMSA so hard is being called "not confident" to an extent she would know those skills but be afraid to speak them lest someone hear her voice.



This multi-isos out of when Farkran was getting up to L-1/intent, the first time Epic Creeper had ever seen that on this format of mafia.

I think Farkran is town. His explanation of pushing people in an effort to provoke discussion matches up pretty well with his actions so far, and I like that he's standing by the things he's said and his reasons for saying them as opposed to waffling under pressure.

I need to go back and read over things in more depth, I know I was kind of lazy in terms of analyzing stuff yesterday.

That means intent to hammer, right? Personally, I'd wait a bit longer to see if discussion picks back up again.

Any tips on how to participate here? Like I feel like I missed the emps/Farkran argument mess and am just picking at bits where I can. I want to help out (or maybe I don't this argument looks scary)

Post 398 is a pretty good way to respond to a wagon going up to L-hot, regardless of alignment. Sushi stated why she was or was not against the wagon, vote or didn't vote accordingly, and then didn't stress out about whether some other involvement was somehow needed. The RL timing of post 398 would have made Sushi Cat available for comment by the time 400 and 425 come up.

So post 425 makes no sense. I think Sushi Cat is capable of some variant of, "if you just say whether you like the wagon or not, you're pretty much good, man". If Sushi Cat is held in too low esteem for that, I don't know what to tell you.
Emps tells him "just say your thoughts then you're pretty much good, man", more or less, 425 has a pretty heavy clearing effect under the "heavy PT use" universe.

The slot that's an issue for this period in "heavy PT use" universe is skitter since she was a bit afk during this shift in momentum in the game, so she wouldn't have been available for private comment in liue of public.

[popsofctown]

Skitter if you go to a teach-emps-skit LyLo and you actually are godlike at 1v1s even though you don't enjoy them at all just like how I feel about Scrabble I only win if you're town and I want you to really think about lynching emps over teacher. Meta means something I know it does but there's a logical stopping point. scum!teacher here has just accomplished so many more total things in terms of hitting hard-to-fakes across the course of the game, and with only 1 scum game played if that's not omitting another mafia site where he has a whole other family and everyone gets two Christmas presents instead of one, he shouldn't be that refined at hitting so many of those points. Rolling scum is such a different set of skills in so many ways. emps emulating his own meta counts as a hard-to-fake too, but this is a quantity argument - emps has just been to fewer places this game. His ambivalence right now is so feigned I'm not even sure I'll be able to count day 3 as having two stances. It is a little rare for someone to get into the "bus all your partners and play solo" style so early in career, but emps can be a youngling pops, he has the moxie, and Creeper's early play was such an invitation.

At least think about it.

Skitter today, pops tomorrow looked like such a more reliable way to play out this endgame for scum!teacher and he didn't do it. Emps actually would prefer this sequencing from his position, I think, and is going for it apart from feigning a moment of uncertainty.

[popsofctown]

19.5 hours left. I recommend you play Eve instead of Lazarus because it's a lot easier to unlock Angel Rooms with her so you can quickly access some miraculousness. Lazarus's strategy prefers to go to the devilroom and trade his hearts for weapons until he dies and comes back to life.

[popsofctown]

Skitter


How often do you think the scum PT was used

[popsofctown]

After Lazarus buys at least 1 item from a Satan room, he is no longer allowed to visit Angel Rooms at all for the rest of the game.

Does that help?

[popsofctown]

our only game was the boon game right? I didn't find any scum and was mislynched. Kind of the worst possible KDR as VT.

[popsofctown]

Apparently he decided to start thinking about partners around when Hectic replaced, and strongly locked a re-appraisal that moved me from a townread to dead last by a significant margin. I'm assuming Selynee's dramatic movement must have been part of that silent realignment, even though I don't see how partner-based argument are favorable for sely slot

[popsofctown]

Your avatar features Africa the most prominently

[popsofctown]

Apparently he decided to start thinking about partners around when Hectic replaced, and strongly locked a re-appraisal that moved me from a townread to dead last by a significant margin. I'm assuming Selynee's dramatic movement must have been part of that silent realignment, even though I don't see how partner-based argument are favorable for sely slot

yeah i don't get it

You're making me stressed out about my skitter solve pls stop bully

[popsofctown]

unvote

[popsofctown]

i'm kinda conflicted

You're definitely an Asia girl, not a North America girl, after all, then, there's relatively few conflicting territorial claims in the North American continent.

[popsofctown]

I really enjoy mafia more when people tolerate some offtopic posting from me. Sometimes I like to play with how much of it is truly offtopic or truly unrelated to my win condition.

If you needed to greylist or blacklist me for this tendency that'd be understandable, I could understand a preference for staying close to the meat and bones of the game.




Who is "u two" in your post? popsofctown and skitter?

[popsofctown]

Hectic outed teacher as scum so there's that.

[popsofctown]

There's plenty of back to basics reasons to want to lynch teacher, including, the level 0 wifom VCA on day 2 giving him basically all culpability for Menalque's death. There's reason to hesitate too.

I kind of want to switch from teacher townbloc to skitter townbloc over the lack of continuity in his read progression and also his insistence EC had coaching in the PT and how firmly he seems able to hold the belief. It gets to the point I want to be paranoid he's just scumslipping on my face and marries that stance because he actually heavily interacted with EC in the scum PT, and EC just said, "I want to post in this particular way anyway", so like, when I try to engage him in some kind of debate about speculating on to what extent there was interaction he doesn't want to engage because it's like engaging Neil Armstrong about whether the moonlanding really happened for his side.

I do still like some of my post1 arguments about skitter!scum but I think I should flip. I really doubt I survive enough days that this is something other me/emps/sel guessing correctly between skitter or teacher and winning or losing off of that aside from minor side dish possibility emps or selynee is deepwolf (which is increasingly unlikely the way they've been vote holstering)

pedit: there's some time in the morning to review a bit and think
I'll be around near hammer to avert no-lynch but I have a VOTE: teacher preference as a course for the game right now.

[popsofctown]

This is the BBcode ripped from the votecount

With (expired on 2019-09-11 18:00:00)

[popsofctown]

his insistence EC had coaching in the PT and how firmly he seems able to hold the belief.

??

Poor choice of words, maybe. You insist there was engagement in the scum PT, and that it was somewhere along the spectrum of "poor coaching" and "no guidance at all". The latter stance seems even more outlandish than the former though.

My stance is that EC never bookmarked the mafia PT. He doesn't have an avatar. He probably checked the thread itself with site navigate instead of a bookmark. Checking the mafia PT would involve opening his PM and clicking the link again and I think he didn't go for that crazy often.

it’s a 180 from pops based on posts that were all out there

The post skitter quoted where you said you scumread Selynee during day2 is one I was just not cognizant of. I read a lot of posts. If you had asked me 2 RL days ago what teacher's d2 posts implied about Selynee slot I would have said "that he's townreading her".

I make different choices with new information. This information oughtn't be new but is.

I discussed some other points that I had already been aware of and that I was already cognizant of and you are correct that those are not reasons your standing with me changed. Those are just reasons for people to vote with me if they want to.

180 seems like a kind of strong word for swapping my top scumread and second top scumread (has been, ever since I've decided on the sheep strat for sorting emps), but in the sense that it's very likely I don't get to lynch both of you and might be gamethrowing right now maybe that choice of words is ok for gravity

[popsofctown]

My replace in reads was

Selynee
teacher
skitter
emps

Reads after feedback on emps was

Selynee
emps
teacher
skitter

It stayed that way for a really long time.

Now the bottom two have switched.

Do you think I ever townread you more than Selynee? Like. That's like never.

[popsofctown]

Uh I'll agree to disagree on the numerical representation of slot movements.

I think I probably threw, I think skitter shoots emps over Selynee because of Selynee's stance on me and then the 1v1 is EZ.

I'm sorry teacher

I found this game really hard

But it's a pretty good one, imo

[popsofctown]

I feel a little sweet talked about ending up on teacher yesterday.

If skitter has some mindblowing and amazing compelling case on emps I'll think about it, but I'm pretty inclined to just deadsheep teacher here.

My NKA was that scumskitter would shoot emps and more easily convince Selynee to vote me than emps, but Selynee was way more townlock than emps is so there's an inherent element of risk in the play, and skitter seems like a player I think would be risk-averse as scum

[popsofctown]

Good news guys I just finished winning a different 9p I can afford to throw this one

[popsofctown]

still disagree that i was being fence-sitty

At this point, I think every town should have selected their two lynches. I have been clear about mine. I have no idea who your second (after me, your current vote) is -- is it pops, or is it emps? I dont think anybody can solidly answer. That is why you have been fence-sitty.

I was hoping we'd be at the "a fly on the wall could answer this" state on this before a reread of the thread.

[popsofctown]

skidddddddderrrrrrr

[popsofctown]

That's interesting.

You are definitely going to have to tell me more.

[popsofctown]

It could also mean emps is town who doesn't know who the scum is, though. Scum!emps would seem to be aware that mislynching me would lead to a emps-teacher-skitter endgame that emps wins every time, coinflip of how he wins it. I have a hard time seeing has he passes that up on the straight 1v1 decision of wagons at the end of the day.

[popsofctown]

emps why didn't you lynch me?

[popsofctown]

How is teacher what was easiest? my username is only a couple keystrokes more to type than his.

[popsofctown]

The victim of teacher's opportunism himself didn't flip his townread on emps. I don't see you flipping your townread on emps here. I think the way he played day 3 is shades of nai, some players would get into that kind of chill. I see more of the controversy in how his day 1 play should be characterized.

Like, gut is a pretty decent way to say he's townreading my slot since I haven't been able to do much but project tone due to not being in the game until LyLo-1

VOTE: skitter

[popsofctown]

I'm just a little underwhelmed, skitter

[popsofctown]

Well, now I know skitter hammer is a win.

And you know skitter just tried to get you lynched, which makes her more likely to be scum.

I had it right the second time yesterday, it looks like.

I believe in you emps.

Skitter shifted stances on teacher yesterday, shifted stances on you today, and in her next post situationally has to switch her stance on me to scum. She's really getting overquota on her flightiness

[popsofctown]

Okiday this post contains a self vote for each time Nexus told me I'm mafia.

[popsofctown]

You can take your time and do rereads if you need to.

[popsofctown]

I still feel like the scummiest thing about skitter's slot is the inconsistent way she treated Farkran's slot. town!skitter has a duty to WK him to an extent that keeps dead townies off the floor, not lynch whatever's popular. She repeatedly slips her own knowledge that Farkran is newbtown, but still votes him.

This is to an extent the same case I made my very first post this game, but then I focused on her unvoting and her behavior after the unvote. I didn't talk enough about her behavior before the unvote. It's really the same thing. All of her commentary throughought the game demonstrated that skitter is a player who when she rolls town would not be mislynching Farkran. The antiFarkran readslist and vote is an opportunistic hole in a long, consistent swatch of fabric.

I actually first noticed this type of tell in a recent game I played with a scumpartner, where someone said, "pops is scummy, because she did X", and X was a pretty remarkable point, and my scumpartner said, "yes, I agree I think scum do X more often than town does". Then five posts later my partner posted a readslist with me in null. Nothing else had really happened all game. It didn't make sense. It was scummy.

The reason it can happen is because when you play town you have these little like emotional gauges in your mind, and they tick up and tick down each time you get a point of data that points in either direction. One gauge for each player. You nudge up a bit, you nudge down a bit. When enough individual items add up, you get a strong read.

As scum you often have to post remarks, but it doesn't change your read. You know everybody is town. So it's never a turning point. Skillful scum will manually yank an imagined gauge up or down, so that they can have the most plausible consistent answer if they're asked "what's your read on this player right now". But it's tedious, and it's not always remembered to do this, even for skillful scum. Or in other cases, the circumstantial benefits and options of having a different position (like in the example I made, the benefit of holding the position that I was townie, especially since this guy is really humble and somehow thinks I'm better at scum than he is) are so great that scum will be willing to state a different positioned from what the imagined guage will say.

I had assumed (and i'm still not entirely convinced) that she was NOT aware her hammer vote was fake, since i genuinely thought speaking after having been lynched was going against the rules. I still think it should not be allowed: if you get lynched, you either prepared your testament in advance (like we used to do in old forum mafias through the [lastwill] command) or you go out silent. For this reason, i changed my mind on Selynee being townish.

can you repeat this? i'm not quite following your logic here

it was p obvious that selynee knew they were fake-hammering, and your immediate post thereafter seemed to recognize this too, given that you acknowledged they were already on wagon

like i don't understand the connection between what you wrote and how you're readign her

Skitter is demonstrates cognizance that some of the issues with Fark slot are misunderstandings. She hasn't figured out what it is about Fark's old site and how things go there to know what the deal exactly is, but she has the data points, long before she votes Fark. It should be null to her read.

This is the second time you've been defending skitter for... no reason at all, besides her being VLA.

yeah ngl this still weirds me out a bit

skitter has a resonant thought with Fark, arguably Fark should have gotten townpoints from her here.

wow, who knew that *not* being here and *not* posting could generate so much discusion lol

wrt the hiding thing i'm kinda getting the vibe that farkran wasn't using it in a pejorative/neagtive sense, maybe misused the word; i don't think he was actually accusing me of 'hiding' behind v/la tbh, even though that's the word he used, if that makes sense

that bit of teacher/farkran back-and-forth feels lik some kind of miscommunication i think

Again, she's rejecting a lot of the mainstream reasons for scumreading Fark over misunderstandings. This is scum!skitter emulating town!skitter, because emulating your own towngame is a good way to lower your lynchrate as scum.

Whether it helped backfires is up to you, emps.

With that said, i moved emps and Selynee down in my list of suspects.

Did Selynee know about the fakehammer? Perhaps. Sushi didn't notice it at first. I almost didn't notice it, but i wouldn't have said anything anyways.

again, at the time, you seem to recognize that it was a fakehammer so i don't understand why you're pushing her for bandwagoning/quickhammering given that you knew that she wasn't then

teacher defending me feels weird

The first part here is redundant to what I covered earlier.

The second shows skitter ought to be scumreading teacher more than fark, based on the language she's used to describe each slot.

Just gonna throw it out there now that I think skitt is gonna accuse me of buddying her and SR me for it

i mean given ~past events~ i'm not entirely surprised this is the approach you'd take for reading me
i'm not sure it's ai; i can see town!you realizing you have no idea how to read me (although i'm not sure defaulting to a townread is the correct way to handle the situation), and i can see you doing this as scum as a way to just like not have to 'read' me

teacher - mafia 60% too serious to be town PR

i'm actaully not sure scum, even newbscum, say this so blatantly in thread?

This is unarguably redeemable for townpoints for Farkran's slot.

No, my vote is bc skitt is conf!scum actually

That's a whole different matter then.

VOTE: unvote

VOTE: skitter30

lol i think they believed this

yeah, that's the bit i'm having trouble following;

@fakran in your previous site were n0 guilties a thing?

more trying to understand the misunderstandings but not having a reason to scumread them. I'm cutting things out for brevity, but none of the things I'm cutting out are independent reasoning for scumreading Fark. Her vote is cast later on Fark based on supposing she is "aware" of "common knowledge" about Fark being scummy to an extent she should scumread him. If skitter was a slave to groupthink, she never would have unvoted him, if she's not a slave to groupthink (it's that one, btw, Skitter), she doesn't vote Fark in the first place, and even if she does, she doesn't put him at the bottom of a readslist. (I'm not specifically going to say, omg, skitter! EpicCreep wasn't at the bottom of every one of your readslists! obvscum! btw.
This is actually about, "players it would take more effort to mislynch are not at the bottom of your readslist, the guy who is easy to mislynch who you -think is town- is".
Obvi skitter will come in and say she scumread Fark and later townread him. fmpov I know she doesn't develop reads this game because the seven townies are implied in her role pm, but from your point of view, look at this progression of her own words.

I stand by teacher being the most suspicious atm.

why?

Most players are more interested in assigning town equity to other players with similar reads than I am, but teacher is not held in high esteem by skitter at this point, so if she's in "most players" again this is a place where Fark should have gotten townpoints.

ur "analysis" is pretty bad. yiu dont need to analyze

random

votes

eh, kinda disagree; in the early game that's basically all you have to work with so i think it's worth it to make a mountain out of a molehill in general to get the game out of rvs if necessary; this game doesnt' seem to be stuck in rvs tho lol

She has actually refuted every single attack against Farkran goodness.

L-1?

VOTE: Farkran

Last words?

Lol, really? Ok.

I don't know if you were aware of your double vote, but hammer rushing is not just being aggressive, it's plain bandwagoning.

My town reading of you just went down to 40%

a) normally i would say that this sort of lacksadacksical response to the 'hammer' is kinda townie; i think scum are usually more survivalistic and would like freak out more here if they think they actually got hammered, but you're obviously p hyper-aware of the votes on you and knew you weren't hammered so i'm not sure this is a townie response in this context

b) what's the scum intent in that fakehammer?

Normally she would say this sort of lackadaisical response to the "hammer" is kinda townie, but under special circumstances the text in skitter's role PM is red, and she needs to keep her mislynch options open.

Her logic has some weight here, but it should -dampen- the town credit Farkran gets for being chill, not nullify it. A fakehammer with cognizance has some similarity to fakehammer someone is gullible to, and Farkran is posting from what should be a pressured state either way.
Regardless, skitter does not go so far as to say the towncred for being relaxed should be inverted, she's still never really scumreading this slot. The closest her posts ever get are times she is "not townreading" the slot.

bleh fakran is like on this weird plane where i kinda hate all their posting but i can kinda see it coming from 'i'm just going to my thing and don't give a fuck about what you think about it' newbtown

This becomes too much for her to top scumread fark later.

This shouldn't rank below teacher, or Sushi Cat, or even Menalque.
At bare minimum it should make her readslist have a bottom tier with several names, rather than giving Farkran an -entire tier- for how much scummier he is than the rest of the player list. ?

That didn't look hammer testing to me. Claiming (or speaking at all) after being lynched is against the rules if i am not mistaken. That looked more like genuine rushy bandwagon.

a) you seemed to know that they were already on-wagon; why didn't it look like hammer-testing to you?
b) it's fine to speak after being lynched, until the mod 'flips' you and ends the day. that period of time between 'lynch' and 'day end' is called twilight, people can still speak then

misunderstanding stuff again.

My biggest townread is probably Farkran, for getting people to talk. The fact that they pointed out they did this kind of negates it though. I also lean town on emps for asking those questions to analyze.

ok
a) why is 'getting people to talk' townie?
b) is farkran the only person you think has been doing this?
c) why does pointing out that they did this negate the townread?

Chat with the buddy, fun times. I do think a) is fine and is probably an accurate case where scum!skitter is emulating how town!skitter would challenge EC's thinking.
b) is pretty uncommital shading that doesn't seem to accomplish town's goals. like idgi. It feels awkward but I'm not sure how to explain how it is problematic.
c) is also fine
Note this is pretty close to the eventual vote cast on Farkran, and she is "both sidering" still. She does not present her own negative opinions on the townreadability of this things to sway EC to vote Farkran.


After the drum roll, she goes away from the thread and comes back to the thread and the gamestate has reached the point of Farkran being viable, juicy, low cost mislynch. And "everyone" thinks he's scummy, so it goes unquestioned if she just drops him at the bottom of a readslist.

reads are something like:

{emps}
{nmsa, selynee}
{teacher, sushi}
{menalque, creeper}
{farkran}

let me check the vc before i vote

VOTE: farkfran

EDIT: This quote wall is too big for me to hunt the exact place down, but I described her reads list wrong a couple times in terms of which reads were ranked near the bottom.
Regardless: It's too-absurd-to-be-town that any of the four names closest to fark do not even get to reside on the same tier as a player she is -basically townreading-

[popsofctown]

Uh... sorry

[popsofctown]

Nope I’m town. Lynch skit tomorrow.

And yes pops, going from 2 to 4 on a readslist is going down three slots (two, three, four)

Good luck y’all.

this is real gud, less wally

[popsofctown]

Yeah be sure to log on, no lynch is resolved as guaranteed scum win.

[popsofctown]

p sure skitter would stab u even though she's scum

for mentorship purposes because she loves u

[popsofctown]

I actually kind of that it was really weird how sure teacher seemed about coaching

And what made you slide above him on my scale was about how you were more chill about whether it happened

I don't actually know

Can you tell me after the hammer?

[popsofctown]

*thought it was

[popsofctown]

Were you too busy?

[popsofctown]

Ok, I think that question is formatted so you'll have to answer after the hammer

[popsofctown]

I thought we were friends that wouldn't lie to eachother and that teacher was scum and I just wasn't misreading him for the guy fawkes avatar

but I was so wrong

omg is asia even really your favorite continent?

Pls don't break my heart with more lies skittttttttttttttttttttttttt

[popsofctown]

i had fun too you should not let people day 1 lynch me prior to your replacement into games ok just bend some causalties make it happen

[popsofctown]

My VCA is that I think the wagon on popsofctown developed as a counterwagon to the wagon on skitter

[popsofctown]

lol "intent to hammer someone"

My L-1 claim is Vanilla Townie


Skitter would you please consider claiming mason, I recommend that line of play for you atm

[popsofctown]

I think the suspense is killing both of us

[popsofctown]

pops ofc town

[popsofctown]

lol it is too late to change alignments

[popsofctown]

Well played but too bad, skitter and epic creeper!

[popsofctown]

I am sorry I mislynched teacher

[popsofctown]

you seduced me with your read progression paranoias

[popsofctown]

Apologies, sleep deprived and should have waited for flip. Well played, all, and a pleasure.

Posting between game-end hammer and flip is like, the most minor of all infractions, you're good. I'm only thinly against thinking it should be considered outright socially acceptable.


It pales in comparison to Jingle modding a game and a dead player coming in and saying "what a crazy doctor claim" and Jingle insisting that was a type of bah post when I complained

[popsofctown]

(when nothing was hammered yet)

[popsofctown]

I kinda think that vote should have been a little bit easier for you given how many degrees skitter pivoted on your slot? But honestly, I haven't been to LyLo as many times as I should have given my join date, I used to be d1 mislynch bait. So I'm not sure if it's possible for town to go after one player, get locked into a different 1v1, and yet flip town

[popsofctown]

wait what how is that a bah post

ikr

[popsofctown]

I don't know if it was actually particularly convincing to emps, I feel like maybe I don't speak his language

[popsofctown]

Did it, emps?

[popsofctown]

I laughed out loud

[popsofctown]

teacher did it change your opinion about the 1v1

[popsofctown]

yeah that makes sense

[popsofctown]

Yeah that seems like one of the genuine situations where you have to hurt your winrate as part of newbie queue I think. I respect you for playing it that way

[popsofctown]

Lots of people are willing to wallpost as scum. It's not a reliable reason to vote a certain way just because a wall was produced, I think.

[popsofctown]

This is in one of my scumgames, pretty wally

Spoiler: Ankamius towncase

By first half do you mean first part? The way I'm reading the setup the nightkill occurs like 28% of the way through the game or something like that

I mean first half of deaths, I'm looking to town hunt in this setup

Ank makes a commitment to townhunting in the setup really early on. Townhunting is a strong way to win as town in this setup but a shaky way to try to win the setup as scum. Whichever famous dead guy said it: "you can't fool all the people all the time", and just one person has to post "I leave the dance" on your deepwolf slot for the game to collapse. Getting mislynches one at a time is still easier and safer for scum and she could have spent predance doing shade potshots that wouldn't be incongruent with her style.

1. less likely for me to be a consensus townread, which makes me far less comfortable with wanting to try to take any sort of lead in this game at any point
2. more likely for me to tilt out of the game or tilt others out of the game
3. with no fundamental staying power, I want to focus on setting town up to win without me so that my posturing is known to be town instead of having to risk getting paranoia lynched

Ankamius doesn't expect to endgame but wants to set the town up to win. There's obvious WIFOM here but she's been playing like someone who might not be here all game, all game, with virtually no LAMIST posting and lots of long term planning.

I'm really not feeling a that we're seeing a town okapoka atm

This is like page 25 or something, I don't know the math, but Ankamius correctly shaded okapoka for virtually no cred. It's town indicative to organically generate an accurate scumread and it makes little sense to tax that for buscred WIFOM the way that the game actually progressed.

I don't want to pair with Creature
I don't want to pair with Shiro
I don't want to pair with Alisae

I can be convinced on the rest

Based on what I think I know about the personalities in this playerlist I don't think scum!ank could pretend to want to dance with Creature or Shiro but I think she could dance with Ali. Maybe. Mostly both scum!Ank and town!ank pair with MariaR with high probability.

btw

I'm pretty sure I've figured out scum's strategy this game

Cool, what is it

I'll discuss it in my neighborhood

because it almost entirely precludes mariar being scum if it's true

total and complete abandonment of the LAMIST value of game related posting.

I don't really put 2591 onto anyone here

just making a point that BoP is a thing and people should probably be using it more

This is after Ank has paired MariaR so it's not a particularly survivalistic topic to bring up if scum!Ank knows MariaR's readslist is pretty bad. If MariaR is projected to make 2 hits that maybe inverts, I suppose.

I think Gamma is kinda obvtown and oka is more likely town than not

Ank didn't join the Oka scumwagon even though the town probably would have awarded her more cred than they did for her predance potshots. In reality her informal behavior towards him did far more to kill him though.

Do not end the day please

Would have been pretty easy to not post this. A spontaneous leave would have probably been pretty catastrophic informationally.

I feel like this game would already be a town stomp if the pairings weren't the way they are

This was really resonant and should have been resonant for every other townie reading it the way the pairings have turned out. Whereas it is not natural for the scumteam to post, I'm not positive how far ahead or behind the scumteam are but I suspect they are rather pleased with who is dancing with whom.

Kagami + SXTLHGaiden is almost always TvT
MariaR + me is almost always TvT
unwnd + popsofctown is almost always TvT

Golden Robster + Creature is very likely TvT, pending a check on GR that I'll do later
Firebringer +Shiro is probably TvT (Firebringer is hilariously obvtown and Shiro is still comfortably in his townrange), not really interested in sorting that until I have to

Deasvail + Cephrir <--- DeasVail is likely scum, Cephrir rarely is
Dunnstral + Bitmap <--- Bitmap is likely scum, Dunnstral rarely is

Ankamius follows through on her plan to win the game through townblocks. She is not executing a gameplan based on casing people that would give her more power to lynch slots of her choice, instead she is trying to setup the town to mix their thoughts with her input and come up with a townblock wincondition. Regardless of the accuracy (I feel a little more like Shiro knew what she needed to post for us to stop scumreading her dance1 and Ank has shifted even more in this direction today) the methodology is very town indicative to me.

and yes bitmap's last several posts were openwolfing

Not going to post every single one of these, but Ankamius has tried to kill Bitmap because she actually believes it will flip red. Sometimes I don't think I can say that about every member of the Bitmap wagon.

Btw scum!me most likely pairs with MariaR because I think she'd be one of the biggest threats to my team in this plist and it would help me control the game if I could take her out when I feel like it would help my team win

Or even better, use her hunting in the PT to pocket the rest of the game and powerwolf the game where I want it to be

I could see MariaR picking me as a partner for a similar reason since I tend to be a major wildcard as town

I don't even know if Ankamius should post this as town but she should definitely replace this with an FFXIV shitpost as scum.

Shiro having low activity is not AI

This is very true about Shiro and Ank could have just not posted it to retain more ability to pivot stances on Shiro as her activity varies throughout the game.

I maintain that Oka was trying to discredit me

The way Oka interacted with Ank dance 1 seems to clear her. It created so much interaction opportunities for Ank to say something awkward, or even if Oka was a big believer in his teammate, a chance for Oka himself to say the wrong thing. Nothing offkey actually came out of it.

Then purge all but fbshiro

This is a bit of a return to a previous topic, but Ankamius is focusing on the townhunt wincondition, and again her favorite pairing is one that does not include herself. This is town indicative. I strongly disagree on the pairing she's picking though.

I have MariaR a bit townier than null. So if I'm lynched, it won't be up to me but I heavily lean towards, make MariaR/Ankamius last pair standing

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nexus come adorn us with leafy crownlets

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ohmigod the mafia PT makes me so sad because epic creeper says he doesn't like mafia but he seems to demonstrate like a really good starting understanding of the game

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RC are there any mafia games that are played that you don't at least skim lol

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The rest of the scum PT was fun.

I think I have a standing disagreement with you on how far ignoring you own opinions and proxying opinions of others can benefit you, skitter, I feel like it helped me win this game and not mislynch emps. In a game with RC I gave his opinion on a slot pretty heavy weight, especially after he flipped town, and it served me well there too. It's not a fun skill to hone but I think it can be useful, especially when you get a feel for how much grounding you have beneath your own reads and whether that's weak enough grounding to consider proxying

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ok but like this one shouldn't count it was masons the EV is straight scumsided

I am just a bomb replacement

Skitter honored her duties as an SE instead of tryharding

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Self hammering on Town is never acceptable.

I like this dead PT post

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Farkran hasn't joined another game yet He was really cool

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I sure hope so! I think he's an exciting player.

Playing one game at a time is a very respectable choice, it's how I started out, and I quite possibly should go back to it.


I share Farkran's enjoyment for hunting without using arguments based on meta - the problem is that on this site, there's clear consensus that enough of us are word nerds with distinct ways of writing we'd all figure eachother out, so annonymous mafia wouldn't stay anonymous very often. I like the idea of anonymous mafia better to the extent that it's achievable though.

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I anticipate you will likely get to play a full game with me at some point if you stick around site.

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I kind of possibly join fewer newbies than I otherwise would to shirk the exact sense of saintly responsibility skitter demonstrated this game >_<

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I anticipate you will likely get to play a full game with me at some point if you stick around site.

I’d welcome any suggestions on how to get better at those two things because I honestly thought I was being transparently towny this game (i don’t think scum!me is capable of faking emotion like that yet) but I was still the consensus SR on D2.

I had a post typed up for you that I backspace out due to the post being unsolicited advice. But now that you have solicited advice, I will tell you something that has worked for me.


Mafia is really hard, and people are going to misread, so forcing a "terribad or scum" on every person who scumreads you is a trap. It doesn't matter if you think you've obvtowned. I will often find in a game where I rolled town but felt my play has been null, people sometimes townread me more. It's unpredictable. It's just very very difficult to view your own slot from any other player's point of view. So it's best to suspend disbelief. Play the game like everyone will view you mildly scummy, make really convincing arguments about your solves so that your solves are medium scummy and get lynched first. About a quarter of the time, everyone will think you're super scummy and you'll get lynched first. 2 quarters of the time your good solving will win you the game. 1 quarter of the time you'll get townlocked and have a higher win percentage from being an Innocent child, and most of the time it will be from different reasons than the ones for which you think you should be townread.

My first year of playing mafia, I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was doing and how I thought it ought to be perceived, and I'd get indignant if people didn't perceive it the way I expected. That had a snowball effect, because people will

scumread indignance

. Later in my career, I started caring a lot less. I would always look out for bad reasoning for scumreading my slot, that's a way to find scum. But if someone posts, "pops is scum, that has just been my gut read of her tone for the first 30 pages." and my role PM says Town Tracker, I just shrug it off as a "random" thing that happens. And that player is much more likely to say "I'm not sure pops is scum" on page 50 is what I've found.

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Hahaha Farkran.

Jesters are virtually nonexistent on mafiascum.

I hope you weren't looking forward to playing them in this format.

They're not popular around here.

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Cults are also unpopular here :X
And bus driver and paranoid gun owner. Bus Driver is still sometimes used though.

For me my favorite role is to be a vanilla townie like I was in this game, and just fight using my wits.

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Yeah, Korina's cult game is probably the only cult game that will be around here for quite some time.

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That's a toughie. You actually have more experience than me on that question, I have played a lot of mafia, but it's been very on and off, so the names have cycled in and out, so I hadn't had the chance to use meta very frequently.

But from what I've seen from meta cases in a general sense from other players using them, they have a very low success rate convincing eachother on the basis of meta cases, even though meta can be valid. Blindsheeping is difficult, and the classic problem that a living player can't be trusted and a dead player is easily forgotten reaches it's peak in cases where you're the only one who's experienced the particular thing. So I think even if I was "good" at it, it looks like I wouldn't get very far.

If there's anyway to reframe the same argument in a meta-agnostic way, I'd go for that. If you're at L-2, and a player votes you at L-3 for an interaction you know you had with them as town in a different game, just point out how the interaction is NAI for Menalque and in fact NAI for anyone, and how it's scummy for someone to use that as a basis for jumping on a wagon they secretly favor for its viability.

This strategy won't work if your meta tell has a paradoxical reasoning behind it, which it very well may - if player X is usually aggressive towards you, but has been passive this game, but is actually just aggressive all the time, mostly as town, in their other games. I have a hard time mustering any suggestion at all for a situation like that, but I don't think it should happen too often.

That's the best I can do for you.

For the more game-specific question you've presented here about staying on a consensus scumread versus bailing to a stronger player that fewer voices scumread - I think you just lynch the consensus scum first. Even though deadsheeping doesn't happen quite as often as it should, it's more likely to happen after you build camaraderie by lynching scum together, I think. So if your thoughts are presented in twilight or on a subsequent game, you should be in a good position to win the game.
I think there's a bit of a logic knot to trying to lynch the scummier scum first - you will not have the scumpartner's vote yet, and you will be working with the same town-aligned players to get that lynch. If those town-aligned players can't combine deadsheep and their own reasoning to lynch the strong player with the -easier- sequencing, the one that gives them an additional vote for actually removing the player, they definitely won't be able to follow you on it at first - especially with obvscum apparent, right in front of you.

Unvoting scum, even with the best intentions, is probably a little like owning a holstered black water gun as a fashion accessory you like to fiddle with while cops write your speeding tickets. Not actually a bad sign, but you're putting an awful lot out to be misinterpreted and the burdern on the interpreter is pretty high.

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I played some Isaac today, actually.

I lost though, I'm not that good at Isaac.

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Do you mean player wiki pages?

I think my player wiki page is basically blank, I thought they were all for bragging.

I've since realized linking all the past games you've played is maybe kind of cool, but it'd be so much effort to dig around and compile my past games, I've kind of given up and said nah.

I also think I might be better off not really knowing my actual winrate (even though I try to keep my winrate as high as I can. I just don't want to feel frustrated about it).

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I played some Isaac today, actually.

I lost though, I'm not that good at Isaac.

Aw. I am currently missing Greedier completion on several characters, my Lost is empty (hard as hell without the holy mantle), my XXX only has normalmode Greed, MH and Sheol i think

I'm missing plenty of completion marks for characters and haven't beaten the last 2 challenges of the latest expansion.

I think I've gotten one of every completion mark except greedier though. I haven't been trying greedier because I like exploring.

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Yeah, I have room for another game, I'll queue.

I might not actually get put into the same game though, due to the guidelines about getting a minimum number of newbies and a minimum number of SEs in each game.

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i barely read any games anymore

i'm only following this cuz i'm following the newd3 stats

currently 4/0 for town :v

Heya rc

Newd3 happened because towns were winning a lot in 2d3?

X.x
Yes, towns were winning way too much in 2d3.
I pushed for really really scumsided matrices (potentially with independent design flaws, to be fair) and people didn't seem interested in shifting the needle that much.
RC's newd3 looked a good bit less townsided than what we used to have and seemed more scumsided than some of the matrices people were putting out (aside from a specific cell he has acknowledged as townsided to but is needed for the claiming strategy of the matrix as a whole), but it's possibly not scumsided enough for the needs of the newbie queue. The dynamic where you couldn't feel comfortable bussing EpicCreeper this game is kind of one of many things that can newbie town winrate high even if the setup is scumsided.

The rest of the scum PT was fun.

I think I have a standing disagreement with you on how far ignoring you own opinions and proxying opinions of others can benefit you, skitter, I feel like it helped me win this game and not mislynch emps. In a game with RC I gave his opinion on a slot pretty heavy weight, especially after he flipped town, and it served me well there too. It's not a fun skill to hone but I think it can be useful, especially when you get a feel for how much grounding you have beneath your own reads and whether that's weak enough grounding to consider proxying

Which post of mine are you referring to?

I'm not sure it wasn't teacher instead and I'm not sure I care enough to hunt.

ok but like this one shouldn't count it was masons the EV is straight scumsided

I am just a bomb replacement

Skitter honored her duties as an SE instead of tryharding

I actually think masons are the easiest to work with, for the most part - you know *exactly* who town power is, which makes it easier to work around - you know that there arent going to be any surprise guilties on you

Also you did some nka at some point, which was also spot-on - neither farkran nor spam were particularly suspiciois of me that night, but farkran had more of a presence and was more liable to rethink things, so he had to go

Yes, you are agreeing with me that this cell of the matrix is "scumsided", benefits scum. It's generally commonly agreed that 2 Masons 2 Mafia 5 VT is winnable for town but favors scum. The masons don't increase town EV all that much because the scum frequently have time to shoot them, and they don't clear other slots in addition to themselves like other PRs.

Yeah that may have won you lot the game - i dont like unpredictability and i couldnt really tell what you were likely to do

Obfuscating information as town (never lying- not volunteering info) is very underrated. Especially in twilight phases.

And yeah, you’re right. I guess I just worry that doing that looks like appeasement and I suppose I’d expect appeasing behaviour to come more often from scum, so I thought that would just get me SR more. I’ll try to see how I can hit those beats more in future.

You may be projecting a preference that's unique to you onto others, here. Most people townread appeasement.


I won't comment on the review list - I think we tend to avoid lists like these around mafia scum due to how it can be hurtful to be singled out as bad player. We have an annual rewards section for honoring incredibly good play across all games, which is less likely to imply some other player is bad, and even that decision process has private "Nay" votes to avoid being negative.
These lists are probably far less harmful in chat mafia when you games are shorter and you can just "run it back". Committing lots of time to a game and hearing you did poorly can sting.

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Well you're at least getting to hang out with teacher