Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[Sushi Martyr]

VOTE: NotMySpamAccount

I like your profile picture.

[Sushi Martyr]

I like the addition of masons, RC did a good job.

I've never played in a game with masons, will be interesting to see how it goes.

Also, hi, everyone!

[Sushi Martyr]

I also like the addition of the masons mostly bc that’s the role I’ve most wanted to play but haven’t yet

Selynee could you pls use the quote feature on people’s posts to make it easier to see who you’re replying to?

Hi sushi. Are you scum this game?

Nope. Are you?

[Sushi Martyr]

Menalque looking more and more like a troll.

I'd still like to hear from the silent people though, i guess i'll wait until they get back or something else pops up.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Farkran

[Sushi Martyr]

Hi, emps.

I might as well do the RQS again though I feel like my answers probably haven't changed much.

Didn't really get town vibes off Farkran at first, will probably need to check their more recent stuff.

[Sushi Martyr]

Discussing jumping questions for the board. All slots kindly answer.

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or tow
5. Time zone/utc/typical posting hours

not that hard

also rqs bad i kinda used it in my scum game to find blue roles lol (i overanalyzed the shit out of them and missed the simplest fucking jk crumb)

1. With forum mafia, this is my third game on the site, fifth game on sites with longer days like this, something like my tenth game in general (about five are in the forums on a site not specifically for forum games/mafia, so it's a somewhat more laid-back atmosphere, although some of the people I've met there are really good players). If you count Discord mafia/social deduction games, probably my 15th game? Although I think I'm a very different person and player on Discord. I tend to impulsively spampost there, for starters. When there's a process of typing up your post in a formal white box, knowing it'll be viewable to a lot of people outside the game, I feel the need to revise my posts more-- that's admittedly just a theory, though.

2. I make long wallish posts which I've decided I'm going to try not to do quite as much, because people don't really read them. I try to stay unbiased and reasonable.

3. Terribly. A part of me is looking forward to rolling scum on here to see if I actually do better with it in a more formal setting, although I somehow doubt it. Mostly I lurk a lot.

4. I don't know if there's anything that definitively gives it away-- context is important. Interactions are something to pay attention to, though maybe they're more useful in finding TvT than in trying to determine a scum team or scum versus town. I use intent too, as in trying to think of what someone's town reasoning would be versus what their reasons for posting the same thing as scum would be. I also dabble in VCA and occasionally NKA if the night kill choice isn't who I was expecting to be night killed.

5. Central Time Zone (UTC-6, I believe?). I post at weird hours sometimes.

pedit: Goddamn, you people post a lot

[Sushi Martyr]

I always read your walls, sushi

Maybe, but you were scum so you had a good reason to

[Sushi Martyr]

That was present tense not past tense

Oh. In that case, thank you.

I still think it might be better to cut down on them though.

[Sushi Martyr]

Crap, that scared me for a second.

UNVOTE:

[Sushi Martyr]

Is page 6 hammer a record?

She was one of the people already voting Farkran.

[Sushi Martyr]

I kind of like Fark's recent posting, even if I am 50% mafia 50% town troll according to their reads post.

[Sushi Martyr]

Oh, okay then, now I look dumb

[Sushi Martyr]

@ Menalque: His page 1 posts felt kind of awkwardly self-conscious to me, and I didn't really understand the early slight TR you and someone else had on him, so maybe it was just him getting more comfortable that reassured me? I don't know. I can try to look for specific pots.

At any rate I don't like leaving him open to a hammer this early.

[Sushi Martyr]

Nah, not against the rules. Also, if there was a real hammer against town page 6, person would be lynched 90% of the time D2. Not such a great deal for mafia.

Why is Notspam town?

@ Farkran: Can you answer the question at the end of it? That part confused me too (you putting NMSA at 70% town).

[Sushi Martyr]

Menalque seems townish at this point. I want to say emps does too but to be fair I haven't seen what emps is like as scum yet. Selynee hasn't posted much, but I like the posts she's made.

Not sure on teacher yet, but I did like the post he made about not getting the early townread on Farkran; I need to look back over his ISO. Farkran I really don't know about.

[Sushi Martyr]

I don't find Creeper scummy at this point despite his TRing Farkran btw, he's still in null territory for me.

[Sushi Martyr]

The reaction test was semi-spicy but I don't know how I feel about it yet.

@ NMSA: What's your actual read on Farkran at this point?

[Sushi Martyr]

Maybe the greeting tell was valid at one point, before someone made a thread in Mafia Discussion about it and people actually started using it in games. Now, if anything, I think it might be a very slight town tell. Of course, if it starts getting used in

that

way in games, soon scum will probably start doing it again and it'll flip back. So I'm just going to ignore it for now.

pedit: Since both of those are pretty bad reasons to TR Skitter, who only posted once to say she'd be posting later, I pretty much assumed neither was serious at this point.

[Sushi Martyr]

Also, is it scummy to ask what your read on me is?

[Sushi Martyr]

Ah, screw it.

@ NMSA: What's your read on me?

[Sushi Martyr]

No, wait, I came up with a better question.

Menalque'a reaction is pretty scummy.

What about his reaction seemed scummy to you?

[Sushi Martyr]

Nah, not against the rules. Also, if there was a real hammer against town page 6, person would be lynched 90% of the time D2. Not such a great deal for mafia.

Why is Notspam town?

Are you saying anyone hammering town in d1 is going to be lynched d2? How optimistic of you. I like your style though, you really look like town when questioning like that. It's your actions that i am doubting.

@ Farkran: Forgive me if I'm being dense, but are you being sarcastic here?

[Sushi Martyr]

I'd like to ask Selynee what they were trying to do with their fake hammer.

Get an answer from them that would help deciding town or mafia. Didn't go so well.

NMSA's reaction test was interesting (because I didn't know it was a reaction test till they mentioned it) and given that they weren't under any pressure for the read- most probably real.

Interesting take. How do you think scum would have gone about faking a reaction test differently?

[Sushi Martyr]

also, what teacher did to "defend" skitter is completely fair and i wouldve done it if i saw the "hiding behind vla" thing (i didnt until recently cuz i was on mobile earlier)

being vla isnt scummy, and

i think teachers reaction is actually townie.

(emphasis mine)

Really? I don't think his reaction was scummy, but I don't think it was townie either. This whole argument about Skitter being on V/LA and everyone's possible reads of her

despite her only having made one post

just feels like NAI semantic squabbling to me.

[Sushi Martyr]

@Farkran: Quick clarification thing, when you say someone's moving down in your suspects list, does that mean you find them more or less suspicious than you did before?

[Sushi Martyr]

@ skitter: I was continuing RVS with my first posts because even though stuff like NMSA's townread of Farkran and the tone of people's first posts (bleh, tone) could technically be a discussion point, everything was still kind of in a grayish area for me and I didn't see the harm in keeping things more at a level of gathering info than trying to pretend like my first vibes were serious reads.

As for what I liked about Farkran's more recent posting, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think it was just that it felt like they started doing more stuff in contrast to the awkward-ish page 1 posts.

[Sushi Martyr]

Also I'm trying to get better about being more casual when posting and not always feeling like I have to write a novel when I post, as long as people understand what I'm trying to say

[Sushi Martyr]

I think Farkran is town. His explanation of pushing people in an effort to provoke discussion matches up pretty well with his actions so far, and I like that he's standing by the things he's said and his reasons for saying them as opposed to waffling under pressure.

I need to go back and read over things in more depth, I know I was kind of lazy in terms of analyzing stuff yesterday.

[Sushi Martyr]

Okay, I'm here, sorry for that.

@Menalque, don't hammer yet.

Sushi is being scummy atm as hell because, contrary to what i'm getting from creeper, he's playing knowledgeably and he's strongly buddying with me - meaning he heavily disagrees with you at this point - yet he's not willing to go along with my calls and he's also ignoring everyone just like you are BUT he isn't emotional about it. Seems to me that he can be mafia, unwilling to hammer and waiting for the town to do his job. The possibilty of a teacher-sushi team is growing in my mind.

I don't entirely know how to respond to this, to be honest. As far as the "ignoring everyone" part goes, I haven't looked at everyone/interacted with everyone-- that's fair. I'd like a chance to do that before you condemn me though. I just read your posts on that page (381, 384, and 392 in particular) and they seemed townie to me, so I wanted to say something about that at that time because it looked like everyone else was scumreading you.

pedit: Also, not going along with you can still happen even if I think you're town. You're scumreading teacher, but he's someone I need more time on; in the game we played together (Newbie 1938), I had a slight scumread on him pretty much until he got mislynched as Doctor. I don't want that to happen again if he's town this game.

[Sushi Martyr]

Oh, and I'm female, I was going to add that at the end but forgot.

[Sushi Martyr]

Either VT taking it on a personal level (happens more often than it should)

is it bad that i think asides like these are kinda townie ?

I don't think so. The first paragraph of 392, where he addresses the possibility of emps being townie again, also gave me town vibes-- not quite the same thing, but might be worth mentioning.

[Sushi Martyr]

i dont know how to feel abt skitter backing out

Backing out of what?

[Sushi Martyr]

Why does it benefit town to openly PR speculate?

I explained myself a few posts ago - in this setup, mafia does not need such information, therefore hiding it is only detrimental to the town in my eyes. If you need an actual quote, please ask me again and give me a few minutes since i'm on mobile.

Also on the menalque situation, i'm following it very closely. Sushi, what's your standing on menalque?

At first I townread him because his tone early on felt relaxed to me. His responses to NMSA and the reaction test felt off to me. I don't like that he said his read of NMSA weakened after he realized they weren't actually mind melding and it was a reaction test in 192: not being on the same mental track/mind-melding with someone isn't really a good reason not to find them town IMO, because it's entirely possible to have different takes on a situation or person and yet both be town, and doing something like a reaction test in the first place feels townish to me. I also didn't like his saying NMSA's bringing up GTKAS was scummy, even if he thought it was in the Speakeasy (an area not everyone here has access to); I don't see the reasoning behind that being alignment-indicative. But I can't decide if Menalque's scum or just town with bad reasoning as far as the thing with NMSA went.

[Sushi Martyr]

I’d lean farkran town too

Basically I thought that farkran’s entrance was too scummy to be scum, and I don’t think that scum!him would prob be that confident to go for that strat in their first newbie

I'm kinda thinking exactly 1 scum in (farkran, emps)

@ Menalque: Can you walk me through your thought process/changing read on Farkran?

@Sushi - what do you think of my take on you?

You mean from 458? I think it's pretty accurate.

[Sushi Martyr]

I'm kind of here.

Rough readslist just to clarify where I'm at currently:

skitter
teacher
Farkran
NMSA (maybe? I don't have a lot to go on here, but the reaction test thing was good, and I think I'll trust teacher's meta for now)
emps
Menalque, Selynee
Creeper (at the bottom, but it's weak-- NMSA made a good point about his "reaction test" voting emps feeling off; his tone is awkward but I don't want to SR him off of that, as there are NAI reasons for awkwardness, and I think playing forum mafia where game days last a week plus when you're used to games that last much shorter might be one of them-- his reaction test thing was still weird though)

I think I need to go look over the pages that were mostly just emps, Fark, and teacher in more depth; I feel like I might have missed something there.

I wouldn't mind voting Menalque but I want him to explain his scumreads first.

pedit: I didn't even catch that progression; it may end up affecting my reads but I'm posting this now for posterity/reference

[Sushi Martyr]

Why are we teaching the newbies to use associatives without flips?

Who is this to?

Everyone's talking about "That team doesn't work because X probably isn't scum with Y" but we don't have any flips yet.

Don't worry, I don't do that.

[Sushi Martyr]

In before someone, most likely Fark, calls that a "wolfy pop-in".

[Sushi Martyr]

I have no idea what to make of Fark anymore.

Parts of his posts feel genuine, but he keeps either misunderstanding or misrepresenting teacher's questions, and it feels a little like he's using the fact that he comes from another site with a different environment as a fallback excuse for not giving direct responses. Like the whole "cat and dog" metaphor he used a couple pages back.

And I still don't think he explained

why

he had such a strong TR on NMSA from the beginning, although admittedly I need to double-check whether he answered it at all. I know he definitely didn't explain it when it was first brought up.

But I have absolutely no idea whether his obstinacy here reflects his genuine play style as town or is an act he's putting on as scum.

[Sushi Martyr]

The fact that Selynee's sticking around in the thread despite the high tension and has started posting more makes me feel better about her than I did before, especially because her posts seem reasonable.

I looked back over emps' push on Fark; I think it comes from town. The tone is right and the things he points out are mostly reasonable things to point out.

The way skitter keeps defending Fark largely on the basis of him coming from a different site and being used to a different style of play, etc., gives me bad vibes.

I'm still kind of leaning town on teacher, I think? His reasoning is easier to follow than Fark's at any rate, but part of me is a little uncertain whether scum!teacher would use this argument to his advantage, knowing he'd be more capable of expressing himself reasonably.

That leaves NMSA, Menalque, and EpicCreeper. I don't know where to put you three.

pedit: Do you think it's possible scum!skitt could be trying to pocket town!Fark here?

[Sushi Martyr]

The fact that Selynee's sticking around in the thread despite the high tension and has started posting more makes me feel better about her than I did before, especially because her posts seem reasonable.

I looked back over emps' push on Fark; I think it comes from town. The tone is right and the things he points out are mostly reasonable things to point out.

The way skitter keeps defending Fark largely on the basis of him coming from a different site and being used to a different style of play, etc., gives me bad vibes.

I'm still kind of leaning town on teacher, I think? His reasoning is easier to follow than Fark's at any rate, but part of me is a little uncertain whether scum!teacher would use this argument to his advantage, knowing he'd be more capable of expressing himself reasonably.

That leaves NMSA, Menalque, and EpicCreeper.

I don't know where to put you three.

pedit: Do you think it's possible scum!skitt could be trying to pocket town!Fark here?

I think I would be townleaning me based on my play so far

You're definitely playing differently from Newbie 1938 but one game does not a meta make. (I have not yet looked over your other games. I might try to do so when I get free time.)

Also the fact that you're saying this about your own meta causes me to take it with a grain of salt.

[Sushi Martyr]

I want to be able to get engaged with this game again. I should have put "responding to pressure better" higher on my list of thngs to improve on this game.

If Fark uses frustration or lack thereof as a way to determine if someone's town or not, he'll probably end up scumreading me all game.

[Sushi Martyr]

Like, I have emotions, I just don't think I express them in a way normal people do. If that makes any sense. At least that's the suspicion I get due to being scumread for AtE every time I start breaking down. Which is not a thing I want to become known for by the way. And I don't really have fun getting emotional all the time either.

[Sushi Martyr]

If you want me to make my case by going back and scouring the thread for post numbers of specific examples and make nitpicky wallposts couched in terms of uncertainty, I can try doing that, but it's probably not going to be today (as in the actual day, not the game day).

[Sushi Martyr]

I described it kind of sarcastically, but it occurs to me now that might actually help. It's still not happening today, though.

[Sushi Martyr]

In before someone, most likely Fark, calls that a "wolfy pop-in".

feels self concious tbh

Probably because I am self-conscious. People are scumreading me, so clearly there is an issue with how I'm presenting myself.

[Sushi Martyr]

I kinda wish this thread didn't feel like a minefield where one wrong word or post and suddenly half the players are shouting for your head

[Sushi Martyr]

I know, but I don't think it's helping anything that I am (self-conscious).

pedit: Oof. Yeah, I know the two things (being scumread and playing poorly) aren't always equivalent since there's more to mafia than just the presentation aspect. But I know I haven't put in a lot of effort and done things I could have done, so there's like a sense of obligation to do those things because they're things I recognize I need to do, and if I don't do them and get scumread for it, that's on me for not putting in the effort.

[Sushi Martyr]

I'm just too fucking tired to put it in this evening.

[Sushi Martyr]

i think fark is talking ~at~ people, instead of ~to~ people, and that's where a lot of the conflict is stemming from

What does that mean? (the difference between the two)

[Sushi Martyr]

I just realized I skimmed most of the longer posts, I just assumed it was more of the same stuff.

[Sushi Martyr]

did you like not read anything between 399 and 513?

No, I read all that, I meant the more recent stuff. I didn't get any sleep last night and haven't really been able to focus today.

[Sushi Martyr]

Remind me to respond to 733 tomorrow, and reread posts and stuff from today. I think I might call it a night.

[Sushi Martyr]

If you want me to make my case by going back and scouring the thread for post numbers of specific examples and make nitpicky wallposts couched in terms of uncertainty, I can try doing that, but it's probably not going to be today (as in the actual day, not the game day).

Bad post. Really, rsally bad.

no u

...Tempted to leave it at that and expend about the same amount of effort you did replying to mine, but I think it would be too easy to miss the point then. I'm not going to argue it's a good post, or that it's productive that I wasn't doing this yesterday, but pointing out things like this and just saying "bad post" feels extremely lazy to me, possibly in a scum-motivated way (getting to scumread someone without needing to explain yourself), because pretty much anyone can look at my post there and say, "that's true, it is a bad post that's not helping the game" and thus probably aren't going to challenge your post saying it's a bad post.

To be fair, I don't remember if you also said you found any of the posts I made that actually showed my thoughts on people and/or events in the game scummy; if that is the case, then I retract my accusation of laziness, but I still don't like the way you responded to my post (and I think a later similar one I made too) with nothing more than just "this is bad".

It's extremely hard trying to break the disconnect between my thoughts and my posts related to the game when every time I post something not directly attempting to solve the game, it generates this kind of half-assed response. Even if my thoughts are "I'm too lazy for this game tonight", I still want to feel comfortable posting them. When I start to hesitate and think, "I probably shouldn't post this, I'm gonna get scumread for it," even on trivial posts like the one you quoted, then I start to get self-conscious about even things that are game-related. Making posts like the one I made isn't directly pro-town, but being able to make them lets me feel more comfortable sharing my thoughts in general, which could then be translated into feeling more comfortable sharing my thoughts on posts, players, etc., which would end up being pro-town. If you're going to scumread me based on actions I've been taking or stances that seem fake, fine, but this kind of post from you isn't helping.

I realize I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here, with my wanting to be able to post even things that are casual thoughts and yet getting annoyed when others make low-effort scumreads in response to these thoughts-- although actually I think the two things are slightly different in that the post you were responding to was not me casting shade on someone for something easy to cast shade on them for that would thus cause my shade-throwing to probably slip under most people's radar. It just irritates me. If you're going to scumread me for something, or if you think the whole idea of making some posts that aren't super-scumhunty is a bad one, then argue that. Don't just say "this is bad" to something that's obviously not an attempt to solve anything and then leave it at that.