Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

[Farkran]

Good morning everyone, how's the day?

[Farkran]

I see that random lynching is the common rule here. Care to give any reason why targeting me, Selynee?

VOTE: Selynee

[Farkran]

Why do you think I'm targeting you? What do you think of Menalque vote?

With no investigations available so far, and not knowing any player from previous games, i'd say both votes are for the sake of information fishing. It's ok, but i'd rather hear some reasoning first. I am personally voting you for picking me, i could have voted Menalque for randomly voting a different player, but you have chosen me.

[Farkran]

That's a whole different matter then.

VOTE: unvote

VOTE: skitter30

[Farkran]

Anything goes, as long as it makes sense and we can get something out of it. Menalque said skitt is confirmed scum. I'd like to verify.

[Farkran]

Menalque looking more and more like a troll.

I'd still like to hear from the silent people though, i guess i'll wait until they get back or something else pops up.

[Farkran]

Now i look like a good girl from an anime i like. Also hello to all the newly arrived.

My readings so far:

Selynee - town 70% very proactive
Menalque - town 50% mafia 50% trollish
teacher - mafia 60% too serious to be town PR
notmyspam - town 70% plays like expert town
sushi - town 50% mafia 50% trollish
emps - town 65% aggressive play

Other two have yet to speak, 80% at least one mafia hiding in there

UNVOTE:

VOTE: teacher

[Farkran]

Discussing jumping questions for the board. All slots kindly answer.

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or tow
5. Time zone/utc/typical posting hours

not that hard

also rqs bad i kinda used it in my scum game to find blue roles lol (i overanalyzed the shit out of them and missed the simplest fucking jk crumb)

1. Played forum mafia elsewhere a long time ago, died n1 majority of the times because i talk too much
2. i talk too much
3. i talk too much
4. just posted about it a few seconds ago
5. CEST, mostly available all day

[Farkran]

uh how is that a good enough arguement to say "fine you win"??? "oh i dont want people to know my alignment due to pressuring me which is like an anti-town thing so like yeah"

"hmmmm fine you win"

pedit : hey you didnt see me on the playerlist? wow rude

Except that i gave more information than almost everyone else here lol

Sely did her job, probly did it good, still hasn't unvoted me though. I stand by teacher being the most suspicious atm.

[Farkran]

you gave more information than anyone else, how exactly? by saying "i dont wanna give out info stop voting me reeeee time to blatantly omgus"

Lot of ppl just greeting others or talking about past games, so far my only useless post was first one, everything else was analysis. I like to get things started.

[Farkran]

I dig it a little less now (wasn’t a fan of the readslist), but mostly bc of 12? That seemed like a really weird sheep to make, bc it’s obvious to anyone that I couldn’t have a conf!scum on skitt and I don’t really see the scum motivation for drawing attention to yourself through pretending to believe an obvious joke

That's why you should be careful of obv jokes

[Farkran]

ur "analysis" is pretty bad. yiu dont need to analyze

random

votes

Actually you do. And i accomplished my mission by getting everyone to talk profusely and provide analyzeable arguments. Ofc my analysis would be poor day 1, it will become more valuable later.

[Farkran]

also why should you be careful abt obvious jokes if they are, idk, obvious?

It's not the joke that matters, it's people's reactions about it and what they spark later

[Farkran]

Votecount 1.1:

teacher (3) -

NotMySpamAccount, emps, Farkran

Farkran (2) -

Seleynee, Sushi Martyr

Sushi Martyr (1) -

EpicCreeper9002

Menalque (1) -

teacher

NotMySpamAccount (1) -

Menalque

Not voting (1) -

skitter30

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. The deadline is at 9am BST on the 28th August 2019. (expired on 2019-08-28 09:00:00)[/b]

I think i am at 3 and NotMySpam is at 0 now?

[Farkran]

No wait i missed an entire page during the last 10 minutes lol

i am at 4

[Farkran]

L-1?

VOTE: Farkran

Last words?

Lol, really? Ok.

I don't know if you were aware of your double vote, but hammer rushing is not just being aggressive, it's plain bandwagoning.

My town reading of you just went down to 40%

[Farkran]

Whatever, lol. I still stand by my vote.

[Farkran]

I dig it a little less now (wasn’t a fan of the readslist), but mostly bc of 12? That seemed like a really weird sheep to make, bc it’s obvious to anyone that I couldn’t have a conf!scum on skitt and I don’t really see the scum motivation for drawing attention to yourself through pretending to believe an obvious joke

That's why you should be careful of obv jokes

What do you mean?

I explained myself earlier, didn't i? I accomplished my mission of getting people to talk.

[Farkran]

idk farks logic is very backwards and weird to me i dont see how they arrive to those conclusions

Why don't you give your readings then?

[Farkran]

not in a way that I understood, so talk me through it

Accusing you is just as useful as you accusing me. Just look at all the ruckus. All this stuff will be useful later, even if i die today.

[Farkran]

Updated readings:

Notspam: town 70%
Menalque: town 60%
Sushi: 50/50
Emps: 50/50
Selynee mafia 60%
teacher mafia 60%

Other two people still MIA, still convinced there's 1 mafia there

[Farkran]

Hammer testing tends town or partner. Why does it make you scumread them?

And emps, I always reread rvs. Some of the more useful associations are there, before scum get the feel of the room and can play into/against it as needed.

That didn't look hammer testing to me. Claiming (or speaking at all) after being lynched is against the rules if i am not mistaken. That looked more like genuine rushy bandwagon.

[Farkran]

Today I learned forum mafia is a game you check every 30 minutes or so, not every few hours.

Reading stuff now...

this game has been super active tbf

Told you, whenever i am in, it gets fun

[Farkran]

Today I learned forum mafia is a game you check every 30 minutes or so, not every few hours.

Reading stuff now...

We're eagerly waiting your readings

[Farkran]

Nah, not against the rules. Also, if there was a real hammer against town page 6, person would be lynched 90% of the time D2. Not such a great deal for mafia.

Why is Notspam town?

Are you saying anyone hammering town in d1 is going to be lynched d2? How optimistic of you. I like your style though, you really look like town when questioning like that. It's your actions that i am doubting.

[Farkran]

also fark, why do ur reads changed based off of ppls read on u?

what do you guys think of farks reads being reactive to everyone elses reads on them?

I'm not adjusting reads based on words only, rather on actions. I had assumed (and i'm still not entirely convinced) that she was NOT aware her hammer vote was fake, since i genuinely thought speaking after having been lynched was going against the rules. I still think it should not be allowed: if you get lynched, you either prepared your testament in advance (like we used to do in old forum mafias through the [lastwill] command) or you go out silent. For this reason, i changed my mind on Selynee being townish.

Besides, you and Selynee are the only ones i changed my mind about. You said you weren't going to L-1 me and then two posts later you did, lol. More explanations on this on the my answers below.

Nah, not against the rules. Also, if there was a real hammer against town page 6, person would be lynched 90% of the time D2. Not such a great deal for mafia.

Why is Notspam town?

@ Farkran: Can you answer the question at the end of it? That part confused me too (you putting NMSA at 70% town).

I understand you think of me as a newbie, and legitimately so since this is my first game in this forum, and my first mafia game altogether after more than 7 years. I'm not hiding behind the newbie shield though, i am getting tells from people's posts and actions. Most pro-town people at the moment are notmyspam, Menalque, possibly sushi. I also really didn't like epic posts, i'd like to hear more from him - skitter is hiding behind VLA so anything i say about her would be irrelevant at this point.

Nah, not against the rules. Also, if there was a real hammer against town page 6, person would be lynched 90% of the time D2. Not such a great deal for mafia.

Why is Notspam town?

Are you saying anyone hammering town in d1 is going to be lynched d2? How optimistic of you. I like your style though, you really look like town when questioning like that. It's your actions that i am doubting.

@ Farkran: Forgive me if I'm being dense, but are you being sarcastic here?

Yes, i'm being overly sarcastic. Because, at one point during this day, someone WILL hammer a player and chances are it will be on a town vanilla due to sheer odds statistics. How in the world does that mean that whoever hammered him will be lynched in d2? I didn't like that reasoning at all. Someone has to be lynched, that i can agree with, but the way you do it gives tells.

Hammer testing tends town or partner. Why does it make you scumread them?

And emps, I always reread rvs. Some of the more useful associations are there, before scum get the feel of the room and can play into/against it as needed.

That didn't look hammer testing to me. Claiming (or speaking at all) after being lynched is against the rules if i am not mistaken. That looked more like genuine rushy bandwagon.

How do you define hammertesting?

It can’t be a bandwagon because they were already there. So answer the question: why does a second, and purportedly hammer (but not) - vote strike you as scummy?

Also, why is bandwaggoning scummy?

Try to see it from my point of view. If she wasn't aware of fakehammering, it would be a huge bandwagon move. I insist on saying she wasn't aware of it because it didn't made sense to me, since speaking after having lynched is against the rules - that's what i thought. There's even a line about "bah-posting". Could we actually get this mod-clarified? Can you speak after having been hammered or not?

Also, bandwagoning on the early train is one of the scummiest tells to me. That moved Selynee down my list of suspected scum.

[Farkran]

How do you define bandwagoning? I ask because I disagree - it wouldn’t have been wagonninf if they thought they were elsewhere, it would be hammering. So what do you mean by calling it bandwagonnjng?

Also, “hiding behind v/la” : kindly check yourself. Skitter is not only one of the best on site with no need to hide ever, but also has had a standing Friday into Sunday morning v/la for as long as I’ve known her. Hiding is a pejorative term, and one of my loves for the this site and its deadlines is the way it respects real life. Try to keep that please.

This is the second time you've been defending skitter for... no reason at all, besides her being VLA. I did not insult her, did i? I didn't even vote to lynch her, did i? Is there a rule stating that anyone on VLA cannot be scum? Care to give any reason why this is the second time you're defending her?

[meta]I'm not being disrespectful to anyone, just to let you know. The way i word my messages makes sense in this environment, i really didn't insult anyone. But no way you're going to escape my trials by avoiding to answer, regardless of the reason.[/meta]

[Farkran]

Hiding implies an active choice not to post - ie availability/monitoring the thread but lurking. It is not appropriate for someone who is known to be away. Thus, hiding is insulting and inaccurate.

And you’ll note both my times fefending skitter have been defending vLa. As someone who is normally vLa w my kids during the weekend (they’re away this one) that’s quite important to me, and educating about sitemeta being respectful of vlas is one of the purposes of newb games.

This is strict. I didn't call her out for cheating or anything like that. Regardless if the VLA is real or not (and i do believe it is real, i may have reasons to doubt her role in this game, but i have absolutely no reason to doubt the real person), however, there's no rule stating that you can't be scum during VLA, and most of your explanation posts are meta. I thank you for your insight to us new players, but if i were scum, i would definitely play like you are, in order to say something that sounds useful but actually isn't.

[Farkran]

Hiding implies an active choice not to post - ie availability/monitoring the thread but lurking. It is not appropriate for someone who is known to be away. Thus, hiding is insulting and inaccurate.

And you’ll note both my times fefending skitter have been defending vLa. As someone who is normally vLa w my kids during the weekend (they’re away this one) that’s quite important to me, and educating about sitemeta being respectful of vlas is one of the purposes of newb games.

This is strict. I didn't call her out for cheating or anything like that. Regardless if the VLA is real or not (and i do believe it is real, i may have reasons to doubt her role in this game, but i have absolutely no reason to doubt the real person), however, there's no rule stating that you can't be scum during VLA, and most of your explanation posts are meta. I thank you for your insight to us new players, but if i were scum, i would definitely play like you are, in order to say something that sounds useful but actually isn't.

You’re ignoring the source of this whole discussion. You said Skitter was “hiding” behind vLa. I’m saying that’s wrong - she v likely hasn’t been online most of the day. That both calls you on a misrepping and provides accurate IN GAME information to people on how to assess Skitters activity.

What's wrong about that, though? Just the semantics about the word "hiding"? I didn't suggest to do anything about her today, didn't call her out for anything - yet it sprouted a reaction from you only. This is one of the main reasons why i put you on my suspects list. Perhaps i just don't know you enough as a player and person to make judgements, but this is d1 in my first game on this site and i'm following my guts so far.

[Farkran]

How do you define bandwagoning? I ask because I disagree - it wouldn’t have been wagonninf if they thought they were elsewhere, it would be hammering. So what do you mean by calling it bandwagonnjng?

Could you actually answer this btw?

In my experience, bandwagoning is the act of voting on someone who already has a reasonable share of votes for the purpose of ending the day quickly with a complete mislynch, or aiming at the least information-giving lynch of a town player (not my case, since i've been talking and addressed to so much). In a 2 mafia VS 7 town setup with a hammer on the 5th, the third vote on someone is already a borderline bandwagon move, the fourth and the hammer are much more scummy though. Melanque was the third vote on me, after which emps immediately jumped on the train despite claiming not to, and Selynee attempted her move which did not make sense in my eyes due to a misunderstanding of the game rules.

With that said, i moved emps and Selynee down in my list of suspects.

Did Selynee know about the fakehammer? Perhaps. Sushi didn't notice it at first. I almost didn't notice it, but i wouldn't have said anything anyways.

The reason i'm suspecting you, teacher, is your behavior behind the words said. You were quick to defend skitter for no reason at all. What does defending the VLA accomplish? Again, is there a rule that forbids being scum while on VLA? I am questioning you, exactly the same way you're questioning me. No offense taken, no offense given.

Again, i didn't even doubt skitter's VLA claim, i just said i couldn't have a reading on her because she isn't here to speak. That was the whole meaning behind the word "hiding". I didn't even vote against her, or ask for her to be modkilled or anything.

[Farkran]

Fark- sorry for the deluge of questions, but what is your native tongue?

I'm from Italy, my native language is Italian.

[Farkran]

that's the actual thing and I don't see how you misrep that so badly

Sorry? Skitter is still VLA, you know - she posted about being VLA, but didn't add anything to the discussion. Would you call that a "check in"?

[Farkran]

This post is odd though - you’re again doing the same thing with “sprouted a reaction from you only”. I reacted in 6 minutes. Are you suggesting someone else should have weighed in in that time? If not, why say it? (These are not rhetorical questions, I actually want answers)

Finally, you say “this” is one of the main reasons I’m on your suspect list. What is “this”? Defending Skitter in an RVS post?

@Fark - just noting the other two pending questions from before the pageshift.

No one should have weighed in, that's my point.

[Farkran]

I never defend anyone but myself unless i have specific and reliable information for doing so. Especially when i am town, but tbh as mafia i'd fake it to the best of my possibilities. Why would i clear anyone else over semantics? I didn't say being vla is scummy. I said defending someone over it is scummy.

[Farkran]

I will try to make myself clear to everyone now. I am accusing teacher to be scum because the majority of his posts are about playing gentle towards others while offering meta explanations that are useful outside of the game, but their in-game value is very much questionable. Perhaps that's just the way he likes to roll but it's exactly how i would play if i were in his position and got a scum role.

I might be wrong? Of course. Do i have any other good lead to this day? Just Selynee and emps. The latter also just said he has town readings on teacher, so he's currently my second best candidate for today's lynch.

[Farkran]

@Farkran: Quick clarification thing, when you say someone's moving down in your suspects list, does that mean you find them more or less suspicious than you did before?

More suspicious than before. My readings always go from top (most town-like) to bottom (most scum-like), therefore when someone's moving down, it's scummier than before.

i never stated i townread teacher.

and i think teachers reaction is actually townie.

Uh... ok?

About Selynee's fakehammer, though: as i said, sushi didn't notice it, i almost didn't notice it. Was it so obvious to you? It wasn't to other people. Why would you call it bullshit?

Also, to make it even more clear: i have absolutely no read on skitter at the moment.

[Farkran]

Menalque looking more and more like a troll.

I'd still like to hear from the silent people though, i guess i'll wait until they get back or something else pops up.

this feels like stalling, theres no reason you cant play the game without all 9 people present.

you should be focused on generating interactions and trying to poke information out of people as town.

You might have noticed that it's exactly what i have been doing, and that should also answer all your other recently asked questions.

Who's genuinely scumreading me though?

[Farkran]

I guess our game experiences have been very different.

Who's genuinely scumreading me though?

This was a serious question though.

[Farkran]

Who's scumreading me right now?

[Farkran]

With no investigations available so far, and not knowing any player from previous games, i'd say both votes are for the sake of information fishing. It's ok, but i'd rather hear some reasoning first. I am personally voting you for picking me, i could have voted Menalque for randomly voting a different player, but you have chosen me.

this is ... oddly defensive for someone who understands what an rvs vote is

==

No, my vote is bc skitt is conf!scum actually

heya menalque, what's doing?

==

Should I get used to games taking this long to start?

VOTE: Sushi Martyr because something smells fishy

this one actually seemed to take longer than usual to start, not sure why; the whole site seems to be in a bit of a cool down

=

Anything goes, as long as it makes sense and we can get something out of it. Menalque said skitt is confirmed scum. I'd like to verify.

ok

a) how do you think he'd know that i was confscum at this point?
b) how is voting me going to verify this?

=

Might have finally found a game I'm motivated to play. ahs anyone got experience with the new setup yet? selynee seems slightly scum, but not much. oh, and farkran is town I think. not sure tho.

huh
i'm actually feeling the exact opposite

I understand that me being a newbie here could trigger the experts here into thinking i was genuinely believing some of the early rvs claims. I might have played poorly since i overlooked that possibility. However, try to stick to the facts and read my posts from both a town and a scum point of view, i believe you will learn more than you expect to.

My current read of skitter is 60% town.

[Farkran]

My current read of skitter is 60% town.

Do you use a 50 or a 75 baseline?

50 baseline

She went up based on my interpretation of her (currently) superficial analysis of the situation, which is to be expected since she has just entered the discussion and rushing to catch up over 10 pages of posts. If i were in her position, i'd also see myself as a desperate newbie scum, while people playing by the manual look way less suspicious.

I expect a more thoughtful analysis after she has actually put attention into what happened so far.

Also it's 3 AM here, bedtime for me, so i'm going to

UNVOTE:

for the time being and get back in several hours.

[Farkran]

I understand that me being a newbie here could trigger the experts here into thinking i was genuinely believing some of the early rvs claims. I might have played poorly since i overlooked that possibility. However, try to stick to the facts and read my posts from both a town and a scum point of view, i believe you will learn more than you expect to.

idk what you're trying to say here

did you really think menalque had a n0 guilty on me?

No i did not. It's not possible.

[Farkran]

Good morning everyone. I ahve been reading the latest three pages. I see that i am still a prime suspect. So, on with the answers... My not-so-great performance of the first day didn't seem to get us anywhere, but oh well.

First and foremost, updated readings based on the latest reports:

skitter: remotely possible team skitter+teacher or skitter+emps. Other than that, strongly town-oriented. I would, and used to, react the same way about this situation in previous games. I really can't stand her strong defense of emps though, i would understand doubts, but you're going too far here.

emps: aggression coming from the wrong reasons, hasn't even tried to read anyone else since i became the likely lynch for today. Very reachy, hasn't contributed positively ever since he voted me. Either VT taking it on a personal level (happens more often than it should) or genuine scum attempting to have an early lynch through bandwagon/goading.

teacher: still not offering anything useful to the conversation besides meta advices. Strong connection to emps in both words and actions - see their mutual defense in posts ~270 through ~290 and votewagoning shortly after.

menalque: still very trollish, offers decent analysis from time to time. Reasoning behind analysis is appropriate, so i'm at a loss here. Looks strongly town PR to me, although i find it hard to believe at this point.

selynee: fell back into silence ever since. Suspicious, but the possibilty of a cold-headed townie standing back to avoid confusion is there. No teams identified so far.

creeper: strong team-up behavior towards the prime suspect. Would be a very basic play for scum, when i turn out to be town he's going to "told you fark wasn't scum, now please lynch everyone else who voted him" and ofc everyone else is going to be town. Strong possibility of him coming from "another world" like i am, though. I'm inclined to believe his claims about chat mafia being very, very different than this one.

sushi: slightly teaming up, but doesn't seem swayed by me taking the attention of the day. He's not forgetting other people exist just as emps is trying to do. Seems very aware and careful of vote counts ever since he mistaken Selynee's fakehammer for a real one, and genuinely trying not to end the day too early.

notmyspamaccount: strong teaming up, feeling good vibes from him though. Does not sound desperate or reachy. Couldn't figure out the vote against menalque, i'd like some explanations.


Then, onto general answers about recent posts:

1. Seriously though, our experiences really differ. I believe i will get accustomed to this site's habits in several games, but to this moment i have been called out for backwards logic when everything i did was prompting people to talk and giving my honest opinion about facts happened in the game - from my personal point of view. Fakehammering was not a thing where i used to play, since you could not talk after dying - it could even be considered a dirty play - that's the main reason why my first thought was that she didn't realize she was not really hammering me. If this is an usual trick here, i will learn and possibly make use of it in the future.

2. About me crediting Menalque when he said he had something on skitter, i was just sparking the discussion, and i was successful. Please re-read this day from the correct point of view once you have a chance to.

3. "Why is getting people to talk townie"? Well, in my esperience, proactive and talkative players are usually town or mafia strongly pretending to be town. Silent people lean towards mafia the vast majority of the times, since they do not need to talk at all except for faking and accelerate the killings by casting votes. They already know everything they need to know. In a 1 mafia faction setup, their presence during day is there just so that they don't get lynched for obvscumming. Again, i used to play games with multiple "evil" factions such as 3 mafia vs 3 mafia vs 12 town, or 3 mafia vs cult vs town.

4. Finally, before you bite at me again for calling out PRs, this is also not a thing in my experience. A townie calling out PR on another plausible townie does not help scum in ANY possible way. Scum information and analysis is vastly superior to town's, there no way they wouldn't notice a plausible PR before town does. Pointing them out as a town helps other townies understanding every possible point of view while some one else's talking and, when the setup allows it, lead the doctor to heal the correct target or let scum mistarget due to WIFOM. Also, roleclaiming early is a legit strategy in some setups - mainly those with very few mafia and very few vanillas. This game falls midway, as a 2 to 9 mafia ratio is very low, but the 5 to 7 vanilla on the opposite is quite high.

[Farkran]

VOTE: teacher

Still the best possible information lynch so far. Slightly better than emps due to the chance emps is really taking this on a personal level while teacher seems more analytic about his scum behavior.

[Farkran]

You are trying to give reads on people based on potential teams which is not very helpful right now given that mafia we don't have any confirmed mafia and they could be on sring each other just as well as defending each other. A bit like planning what you are going to do with a promotion when you are called in your boss's office.

This kind of reasoning is what is leading me to think you're either sus or play a different game than me - why would you hide your thoughts and avoid prodding people to talk is beyond me. Leaning towards you using a different strategy, because i understand this is customary in this site, but seriously try to open your mind to a gameplay different than your instructions manual. Knowing each other from past games and basing your claims on respectful friendship is getting us nowhere.

[quote="In post 383
Menalque- doesn't seem trollish. What exact analysis did you like?
[/quote]

post 336, post 181, his questioning about NMSA and mostly impartial readings on everyone, strongly townlike.

[quote="In post 383
Teacher- What exactly you mean by analytic.
[/quote]

I'm saying that, contrary to emps's passionate and desperate aggression towards me which may come from paranoid/angered town, teacher is continuously providing scumtells without being emotional about them. Extremely scumlike to me. I would play the exact same way as he did if i were scum surrounded by newbie towns, regardless whether the strong association between he and emps is real or just in my imagination.

[Farkran]

Aw, i screwed up forum syntax. It's still understandable though, i guess.

[Farkran]

how am i being very reachy?

I guess you didn't even notice that you are doing everything in your power to get me dead since several pages now. I understand your heart is screaming "please lynch farkran, i can't stand him anymore" but that's just you being passionate about it - and one of my best talent is getting on people's nerves, especially effective on newbie/semi-expert townies who strongly believe other town players are inept and don't have a clue what they're doing. You fall perfectly into this category. However, you are also failing to notice teacher buddying blindly with you and i bet you're all "oh thank god there's someone who understands me, we can win this".

i'm speaking to everyone now

I hope you have noticed teacher's post 358 and post 368. Quoted for reference:

Here’s my issue w the wagon right now: fark has been put on L-1 twice (five votes, as skitter replaced sushi). I know I’m town and I lean heavily that way on spammy. So unless we are saying the team is exactly creeper-fark,

farks likely a Mislynch.

Eh, knowing the wagon comp and timing now, I like it more. Thanks for that emps.

VOTE: Fark.

Thats L-1, folks.

You can see him changing his mind, blindly following emps's passionate reasoning, exactly two posts after declaring he wouldn't - his explanation for this action does not hold any water since i have been under pressure all the time so far. Both of them were being really active during that timeframe, signaling a possible hidden planning in-between. They have also been providing townread claims of each other from post 266 to 289 (see 266, 275, 289) simply by focusing their comments on me and mostly ignoring everyone else, sometimes actually providing unrequested defense for accused people. At this point, my bet is that teacher is either buddying with emps or they're an actual scum team.

Mark my words here. If i die today, look forward to emps spitting in-game insults to me for being newbie town playing poorly and trying to clear himself up d2. Classic mafia play around newbies which can then be exploited as an excuse to fall silent due to "giving up" or "chilling down to re-evaluate" when actually laughing in their private forums on a job well done. Please pay attention to facts, not just words, and keep those guys on pressure.

I feel like there's nothing more to add on this topic, insisting would only be detrimental to the town. At this point, i would be ok with hammering teacher in order to confirm or clear my line of thoughts. I bet they would say the same about me+creeper or me+nmsa, which is ok to me. I'm going to drop this bone until we're ready to close today's case.

That being said, i'm willing to reset my mindset on the day at hand and explore other possibilities. I believe creeper is a honest foreigner newbie just as i am and that we are just mind melding in this situation due to coming from similar worlds, but i cannot overlook the fact that he's trying to buddy with me being the prime lynch candidate. Sushi is doing kinda the same but performing way better, so he has been off my radar so far - which would be an awesome mafia play. I am willing to explore the "Sushi is mafia" route, with creeper OR Menalque as likely teammates.

Thoughts?

[Farkran]

I mistyped, post is #358. It's quoted correctly if you click it.

[Farkran]

If you use the quote button, yes. I wrote the quote syntax manually.

[Farkran]

Everyone went into watchdog mode and is avoiding any action to wait for the hammer, trying to analyze or faking it and prepare their accusations on day 2. Not the correct way to go for town, but i understand everyone's thirst for true information. I made my calls, but accused people are refusing to answer and people willing to go along with me are not entirely reliable.

At the very least, before hammering you may want to hear everyone's opinion about the situation.

Current wagon on me is:

1. Selynee (tried to re-open today's conversation, very much town-like)
2. emps (went into blindrage, calling me out for semantics rather than facts just as teacher did, cannot possibly fathom how i would make him listen to reason by now - still a possible angered townie if not goading scum)
3. skitter (disappeared completely, turns my townread on her down a fair bit)
4. teacher (also disappeared completely)

Other people's declared standings are:

Menalque: intent to hammer (the only other one willing to re-open conversation, townread increasing)
creeper: defending me (i still believe he's a newbie coming from my world and appears to understand me, very much likely VT but the possibility of mafia is significant)
sushi: defending me (for no reason at all, scummy as hell atm)
notspam: null (can't understand why he's gone out of the conversation, doesn't follow my line of thoughts about him)

[Farkran]

@emps
I clarified myself on my Selynee claims, fakehammering is not a thing where i come from, it's considered a dirty play.

Teacher has been buddying with you since forever, how are you failing to notice that? You say you're pressuring me but what you are actually doing is ignoring everything else. Take a break, reread, and think.

Sushi is being scummy atm as hell because, contrary to what i'm getting from creeper, he's playing knowledgeably and he's strongly buddying with me - meaning he heavily disagrees with you at this point - yet he's not willing to go along with my calls and he's also ignoring everyone just like you are BUT he isn't emotional about it. Seems to me that he can be mafia, unwilling to hammer and waiting for the town to do his job. The possibilty of a teacher-sushi team is growing in my mind.

[Farkran]

@emps are you even serious now? Please, tell me again what you'd like me to answer

@teacher your reasoning does not accomplish anything. Information does. Lynching me is an awesome information source, i have no reason to go against it at the moment. My only request to everyone is that you listen to all slots before hammering.

[Farkran]

like selynee was always open to convo and they ignored it for a while and was even sring them for a while and like not much changed between the sr and now and its... weird

skitter & teacher are the most bs reasons for SRing someone

menalque/creeper are actually the ones that have been treating ur slot the scummiest imo, and i feel like the mena tr is just like trying to pocket mena/stop him from hammering, doesnt feel like a genuine read.

sushi : scumread by fark (for no reason at all, actually p townie atm)

nmsa : def doesnt have rl or smth why havent you been on reeeeeeeeee

My only sr against Selynee was my misunderstanding of her fakehammer, i have nothing against her atm. This is like the 4th time i'm saying it now?

I was reading skitter as town before she disappeared, nothing else to say, i'm not even accusing her of being scum at this point.

Menalque declared his intent after hours of silence, does not make sense as scum since he would have hammered, period.

You are still failing to see teacher's buddying and unhelpful behavior to the point you didn't even noticed he colored my read of you as red whereas i clearly stated you are leaning towards purple atm

Sushi is strongly buddying with me yet he refuses to go along with me, how come you are not putting teacher on pressure like you guys are doing on me? Just because he's being polite? Way to go, please open your eyes asap

creeper: isn't treating me like scum at all, i have already given my latest read on him like a hundred times

nmsa: still waiting for him to come back and question him

Anything else?

[Farkran]

accused people are refusing to answer

Kindly point me to anything I have refused to answer?

See my post 391. Also please give your educated opinion of sushi, including details.

(Out of game: Writing from mobile so forgive me if i have an hard time using url quotes)

[Farkran]

L-x is a way to convey how far away a player is away from a lynch. For example, you should always announce that you are putting someone at L-1 (1 vote away from a lynch) so that someone doesn’t come along and accidentally vote for that players lynch. This also prevents Mafia-aligned players from coming along and placing the final vote to lynch (“hammer”) and claiming ignorance about doing so.

Menalque wouldn't have claimed ignorance, he would have claimed i was playing like shit and got pissed about me do he ragehammered. Talking from experience, happened a million times and most people got away with it due to newbie shielding

[Farkran]

Okay, I'm here, sorry for that.

@Menalque, don't hammer yet.

Sushi is being scummy atm as hell because, contrary to what i'm getting from creeper, he's playing knowledgeably and he's strongly buddying with me - meaning he heavily disagrees with you at this point - yet he's not willing to go along with my calls and he's also ignoring everyone just like you are BUT he isn't emotional about it. Seems to me that he can be mafia, unwilling to hammer and waiting for the town to do his job. The possibilty of a teacher-sushi team is growing in my mind.

I don't entirely know how to respond to this, to be honest. As far as the "ignoring everyone" part goes, I haven't looked at everyone/interacted with everyone-- that's fair. I'd like a chance to do that before you condemn me though. I just read your posts on that page (381, 384, and 392 in particular) and they seemed townie to me, so I wanted to say something about that at that time because it looked like everyone else was scumreading you.

pedit: Also, not going along with you can still happen even if I think you're town. You're scumreading teacher, but he's someone I need more time on; in the game we played together (Newbie 1938), I had a slight scumread on him pretty much until he got mislynched as Doctor. I don't want that to happen again if he's town this game.

Welcome back, feel free to take your time. Teacher also screamed town PR to me since game start, which is also another major reason for me doubting him.

[Farkran]

mena isnt a true newbie, ive played with him before and im pretty sure he has enough completed games to in as an SE.

what hellhole of a site did you come from?????

For the sake of understanding my point of view, i'll explain more in detail where i come from. That might be useful after all.

Back in the days we used to play setups with way more people (15+ was usual), with game days taking 2 irl days, that may be an involuntary reason for me to act so fast pacely.

It was also customary to rerandomize all forum nicknames to avoid metaplay (i.e. you wouldn't see me as Farkran, i would have some randomly generated name so you wouldn't be able to metaread me until you discovered my true identity)

Multiple evil factions were also the norm, playing double mafia teams vs town or mafia vs cult vs town, or adding more enemy neutral roles such as the serial killer or jester.

We used to have a [lastwill] command that you would PM to the mod. This was the ONLY legit way to communicate to other people after dying - no twilight, no bahs, etc. Anyone speaking after the hammer vote would have been warned for dirty play.

[Farkran]

accused people are refusing to answer

Kindly point me to anything I have refused to answer?

See my post 391. Also please give your educated opinion of sushi, including details.

(Out of game: Writing from mobile so forgive me if i have an hard time using url quotes)

OK, first issue: If you have a question for a slot, direct it. 391 was a rambling diatribe on Emps, me, Creeper, sushi, and ends with "Thoughts?" Thats not me refusing to answer a question.

Second, I think you are scumreading me, a town. For reasons you havent disclosed. I think you havent asked any questions of me or otherwise tried to flesh out your read of me, or of anyone else, until now. Which makes me feel like you auto-piloted on me -- the same way I feel like you have been manipulating your reads of other slots to see what would help you best survive.

Third, on Sushi - she is a hard slot for me to read generally. Here, I have strong gut hard town pings. Trying to rationalize it into words makes it weaker tbh, but there are reasons there. First, she did the same thread greeting as you in 32. But unlike you, with her, I townread it because she has experience with the site meta and could be using it to evaluate the board. Second, I melded on her early read of your play. Third, her answers and self-meta in 120 are remarkably accurate, and consistent with how she has approached the game. Fourth, while her posting style has been slightly more conversant this game, the same cautious mentality is there as well -- a player who is playing v consistently with my expectation of them is one I think did hit the probability of rolling town. The several clarification questions are likewise consistent with my expectation of a polite, cautious hunter who tries to understand minds (e.g. 201, 216, 217, 220, 274). OVerall fairly strong town.

Finally, since its late enough in the day - intent is floating - I will share my readslist in full:
Emps
Sushi-Spam
Skit Selynee
Menalque
Creeper
Farkhan

For reasons i have not disclosed, you say? Talking about me misrepping and not reading the game thread. I have been accusing you of buddying (you probably refer to it here as pocketing) and changing your mind about your decision to join the farkran lynchtrain right after emps told you to. You've never offered anything useful to the conversation before you have been prompted to, besides measured politeness which is usually a strong scumtell.

[Farkran]

Yes, you have thrown shade my way, saying Im not engaging (A) but Buddying (B). A and B are inconsistent. Either I am engaging and buddying/pocketing (both are used interchangeably here, though pocketing is more usually assoicated with a scum implication); or I am not engaging. You cant do both at the same time.

If politeness is a scumtell, you need help. Politeness is just decency/playstyle. Playstyle -/ alignment. I can link all the aggressive scumms (Robbnva tends to be a good example here) and the polite ones (youre playing with several I have experienced).

At no point in all of this shade have you quoted a post of mine and explained why it comes from scum more often than town. Nor have you explained why a 2 person scum team would be more likely to openly buddy and joint vote rather than largely ignore each other -- this from someone who is hunting primarily on pre-flip associations, which are crap. And you ignore my prime thrust, that you never asked any questions of me or otherwise tried to flesh out your read of me, or of anyone else, until now.

Politeness isn't a scumtell per se. Measured politeness, i.e. avoiding the primary argument or pocketing with someone BUT faking activity by providing out of game help is a huge scumtell to me, speaking from experience. Townies tend to get VERY emotional when someone is playing on their nerves, also speaking from experience (see emps bringing it on a whole higher level here).

[Farkran]

menalque: still very trollish, offers decent analysis from time to time. Reasoning behind analysis is appropriate, so i'm at a loss here. Looks strongly town PR to me, although i find it hard to believe at this point.

again, whatever your alignment is, it's a p bad idea to keep repeating this in thread

if farkran is scum i think it almost has to be with another newbie

Sorry for not playing by the manual - i already explained my reasons though.

[Farkran]

menalque: still very trollish, offers decent analysis from time to time. Reasoning behind analysis is appropriate, so i'm at a loss here. Looks strongly town PR to me, although i find it hard to believe at this point.

again, whatever your alignment is, it's a p bad idea to keep repeating this in thread

if farkran is scum i think it almost has to be with another newbie

Sorry for not playing by the manual - i already explained my reasons though.

i understand, i'm telling you that on this forum you'll be scumread for doing this, and might get lynched over it

it's considered to be a very very big no no

Eh, then i can only say you should really be more open minded about it. It's not like i'm not listening to you, i just strongly believe i am correct in doing what i am doing right now, and i feel like following the manual is wrong about every time, even if i get lynched for it. Perhaps, next game i will learn from you and you will learn from me.

[Farkran]

Why does it benefit town to openly PR speculate?

I explained myself a few posts ago - in this setup, mafia does not need such information, therefore hiding it is only detrimental to the town in my eyes. If you need an actual quote, please ask me again and give me a few minutes since i'm on mobile.

Also on the menalque situation, i'm following it very closely. Sushi, what's your standing on menalque?

[Farkran]

Why does it benefit town to openly PR speculate?

I explained myself a few posts ago - in this setup, mafia does not need such information, therefore hiding it is only detrimental to the town in my eyes. If you need an actual quote, please ask me again and give me a few minutes since i'm on mobile.

Youre right, you did say that.

Why does Mafia not need that information, though? Surely a roleblocker would like their action to be successful? Surely goons would love to kill a cop?

Because they can speculate way better than town due to their info being vastly superior to town's. Please note that i am talking about PR speculation only, not actual PR claiming or even worse PR proof. Mafia would definitely need the latter two.

Try it another way. How does town benefit from open PR speculation?

Because a lot of VTs fail to see a PR point of view most of the times. Do not make the mistake of acknowledging newbie plays only when they benefit your argument - newbies exist and they make mistakes all the time, period. A speculation mistake is way, way less likely to come from a mafia than from a VT.

For example, being an early troll is often a PR scream and people fail to realize it, instead pressuring the guy for a scumtell that never existed in the first place. Moreover, if the setup allows it, it may lead mafia to miskill due to doctor wifom, a powerful asset that town could not use unless you PR speculate, since scums will just use their own assumptions (usually far better than town's, again due to better information access, especially n1).

My original post explaining this was #381.

[Farkran]

Why the team with menalque though?

Also bedtime for me, i will unvote and resume tomorrow

UNVOTE: teacher

[Farkran]

Twice now you’ve unvoted me - why? Both time you’ve been th only vote, so it’s bit like I’m in danger of being the lynch. I had assumed last night to be you coming slightly off of scumreadjng me, so I saw the morning return as a bit of omgus. But now you do it again for no reson.

And which ten w Menalque - you or creeper?

I usually don't leave votes when i'm leaving the discussion for several hours unless my vote is necessary for a lynch before day end (which is definitely not the case). This morning i had no reason not to revote you, i'll check again tomorrow morning.

Now i'm gone for good, g'night to everyone close to my timezone

[Farkran]

Good morning again, everyone

And which ten w Menalque - you or creeper?

I think i have overlooked this question last night - are you implying either me or creeper could be menalque's partner? I'm not sure if i got the meaning of your post correctly - if i did, let me answer you real quick: i find both behaviors mostly townsided but i feel like creeper stopped even trying to be useful and instead went on full hiding behind the newbie shield which could be actual newbie scumtell rather than disinterested VT attempt at learning. I'd still say a lynch on him wouldn't help unless he flips mafia so i kinda want to stay aware of jumping on the train against him.

I still see teacher is very eager to jump on trains and i don't like this at all. I realize i may have entered sort of a tunnel vision state against him just as emps did with me but teacher is giving scumtells to me since gamestart, i'd be very surprised to see him not flip mafia in this game. Then again a lot of my townplayers are townreading him for reasons beyond my comprehension and i kinda want to refrain from tunnelvisioning him more while reanalyzing my thoughts looking from my townplayers pov instead - if you care to help me @selynee @skitter @emps @nmsa @menalque please tell me why you are so strong on teacher being town because it doesn't make any sense to me.

Sushi still highly sus and my current best match for a teacher/??? mafia team due to post 450, stalling on her teacher read while townreading me, despite none of sushi's townplayers are townreading me. Still sounds like strong buddying on me without any backup or proactive followup. Inclined to vote against her at this point.

However, @teacher @menalque i'd like your educated read on nmsa before i take any actions today, could you deliver?

Finally @everyone i'm thinking that menalque would be a good information sacrifice so far but i kinda don't like going where teacher is going at this point despite the train comp being 2 of my townplayers.

[Farkran]

Good morning again, everyone

And which ten w Menalque - you or creeper?

I think i have overlooked this question last night - are you implying either me or creeper could be menalque's partner? I'm not sure if i got the meaning of your post correctly - .

You didn’t. I was asking you to clarify your 508 - who the question was to and what the question was about.

Oh, i had already explained myself then - i don't leave my votes on when i can't be active for several hours, regardless of risk - i can always revote or hammer later if i wish to. I haven't revoted you because tunnelvisioning is bad more often than not, but i still can't see you as being town in this game. Willing to wait until further developments. I also don't see you as a partner candidate to either creeper or menalque.

I still see teacher is very eager to jump on trains and i don't like this at all.

Ummmmm ..... show work please?
I have voted four times.

• Menalque in RVS - first on wagon and left it there because I found them scummy
  
• Creeper - first on wagon again, so not jumping on train
  
• you - admittedly fourth on wagon, but immediately after pushing against as you yourself noted (hardly eager?)
  
• back to Menalque - only second on wagon, and a slot I’d already expressed suspicions of.

How is this more eager than Emps (a developing TL putting you at L-1), or Skit (you/Menalque)? More generally, how do you expect a lynch to happen without working with your townreads to find a mutually- agreeable lynch and form a wagon?

So far there have been only two trains and you jumped onto both, kinda early timewise and also votewise on menalque's. Skitter did the exact same but my townread on her is strongly superior. A teacher/skitter mafia team sounds unlikely after the recent developments but i won't rule out the possibility since you are both very aware of your respective playstyles and hardly get emotional about your choices - a trait that is way more common for scum rather than town - of course it also depends on the actual person attitude towards the game regardless of role, but trust me when i say i have angered even the most placid townies in the past. Emps is taking a cold shower i guess, i hope he comes back soon because i'd really really like to hear his standing on menalque.

[Farkran]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" and i find myself going deep down the sushi/selynee or sushi/menalque routes with a possibility of skitter/emps as an alternative.

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely.

On the other hand i'm trying to plan what the game would become should we flip menalque as town today. I'd speculate skitter probably dying tonight leaving us with a combination of sushi/teacher/creeper (in respective order of my scumread certainty, assuming the events go as i planned) as my gamesolve guesses. Feels like we'll be able to accomplish it by biting at teacher tomorrow. If menalque flips scum, well, gg.

So taking skitt!town for now, that means good odds of scum in (NMSA, teacher) idk where I think it is yet

But I think that prob it’s only SEs who would tell a partner to stay off wagon to make it stall

And while it’s not really AI I think it’s marginally more likely that skitt doesn’t make herself the one to point it out if she’s scum?

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate

Also kinda shaky defense here, menalque, i didn't really like it. Your post 310, following up 163 heavily contradicts your current claims.

VOTE: Menalque

I believe this is L-1

[Farkran]

I legit do not get how the guy who wrote all the things in the spoiler, especially the PR spec, flips it up and votes Menalque WITHOUT EVER OFFERING A SCUMREAD. The best that has been offered is an information lynch.

That is hella survivalistic. Especially since their reads have not flipped. They still scumread me, and acknowledge that me-menalque cannot be a team. NO SENSE.

Are you for real? Did you read this?

Menalque is performing very bad under pressure so far and i'm hating it, my townread of him went way down after his latest post and i explained why. Read again: he's doing pretty much the same thing you've accused me to, placing people he had on high TR as his current gamesolving mafia teams (you, nmsa), except that he reconsidered

more than half of his list

, he didn't even mention

me

as a possible mafia when several pages ago he has given the

intent to hammer on my train

. He basically omgussed the whole train against him while forgetting i ever existed and this does not make any sense as a town player. Then i put him at L-1 and you turn back on me on the accuse of

being survivalistic

? I didn't even care about being at L-1 for like 10 pages and i resumed voting you instead of jumping of menalque's train before his crappy defense speech.

Also i strongly encourage you to read game progress from all povs, you may realize that half your analysis on me is off, especially 419 and 541. Emps you should do that too.

(Out of game - I have this hunch that me and you+emps are playing like the cats and dogs urban legend, you know? Cats raise their tail when they're in peril, dogs do it when they're happy, and then they go at each other "wtf you're doing dude? Why are you raising your tail when it makes absolutely no sense?" and the other would say the exact same things, because they have a different nature. When this game is over, we'll likely shout at each other with lines like "you don't know how to play" or "backwards logic" as emps already accused me of, whereas we just come from a different culture. I am not used to play by meta as you guys do since meta was mostly not a thing in my days - we were given randomized forum names to avoid past plays recognition. Also while a scum lynch d1 would be great for town, i am definitely not so keen on getting my highest scumread because it is just so unlikely with zero info whatsoever. I'd rather analyze possible teams and interactions and get the most information out of it for future's sake.)

[Farkran]

Speaking of teams, @emps @teacher who do you see me teaming up with if i am scum? Think carefully.

[Farkran]

Speaking of teams, @emps @teacher who do you see me teaming up with if i am scum? Think carefully.

At this point I honestly don’t care. Someone who swaps onto a town PR after townreading them most of the game can go. preflip associatives are crap.

Lol ok, you entered the tunnel too, not worth pursuing this argument again until reason makes its way back or you actually flip scum (still very much likely). Newbie logic even as scum in my eyes though, you may want to reconsider for your next game after you see the outcome of this one.

[Farkran]

@Farkran- Not rushing to hammer D1 is very possible- maybe mafia are just more cautious or don't trust themselves for one of them to be in the spotlight D2 and so on.
To be fair, you actually didn't say you have a scum read on Menalque or explain it till now.

I don't see much of a defence there...their scumreads at this point are basically based on an assumption on the bandwagons. And Emps on tunnelling (if still actual). Also, they never actually explained the strange scumread on NMSA at that point. You are right about forgetting about you.

Menalque's latest post is typical "i'm scum and i don't know what to say" behavior to me. I didn't have a scumread on Menalque so far and i am still reluctant to read him as scum due to teacher likely being town in that scenario, but man dat defense post is

bad

. If i switch pov on him i could say that his intent is genuine and he was being newbcautious on me due to following this site's instructions manual - which makes absolutely ZERO SENSE in a game where wifom is king and the only thing that matters is being a step ahead of your enemy. This would be enough to explain his crappy defense post and cancel my previous townread of him. On the plus side, we're getting full info from his lynch which is enough in my eyes to get him today if we can't get teacher.

How do you read the townlean on Skitter while also saying they wouldn't push her as scum D1?

Honestly i don't know, menalque actually had never seriously read skitter before his defense post. He just went like "skitter is always town whatever" which i read as "i don't care to analyze because i know for sure, i'm scum and i'm afraid of her so let's start a buddying attempt real quick".

[Farkran]

teacher is an SE with like 20ish completed games how is he a newbie

Newbie logic != Newbie player. Perhaps he just didn't catch up on this setup or isn't accustomed to play with/against different mindsets. He may be a good player in this environment but if you stop using brains whenever people don't do what you expect, it's newbie logic. That also applies to you, my advice is to start understanding other people povs before asserting so much.

I currently have a fair townread on you because from your pov you see me playing like shit so you tunneled but you're likely angered town. Skitter realized she was tunneling on me, likely tried to understand my pov and switched. Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

[Farkran]

. I didn't have a scumread on Menalque so far and i am still reluctant to read him as scum

"not so sure hes scum whatever fuck it *votes mena* L-1"

Read my 576 or don't even talk to me lol it's pointless if you ignore my arguments

[Farkran]

. I didn't have a scumread on Menalque so far and i am still reluctant to read him as scum

"not so sure hes scum whatever fuck it *votes mena* L-1"

Read my 576 or don't even talk to me lol it's pointless if you ignore my arguments

i did, and i replied to it.

No you didn't, or you would have noticed my full explanation about being ok with Menalque lynch instead of paraphrasing only whatever suits you. Tunneling (or entering tunnel vision) in my vocabulary means you focus on one target to the point you start ignoring everything else around you, which is bad play and newbie logic USUALLY coming from angered townies. Your definition of tunneling is what i would call pursuiting which is good logic but not so much on d1 where the chance of scumreading correctly is very low, and

4. idk im bad only time i did something productive was a mechsolve turning the game from d3 win to d6 win and all that. i actually have like trash reads

you should be fully aware of that fact in the exact same way i am.

[Farkran]

That is also the reason why i'd rather go for an infolynch rather than a scumlynch on d1. Why do you believe creeper is a good infolynch though? I guess you can see him partnering with me but surely that isn't your only reason?

[Farkran]

Farkran, do you have a read on NMSA?

Yes, mentioned several times by now, strong townread on NMSA.

[Farkran]

@selynee @creeper @sushi

You haven't been updating your reads for a while (if ever). Please do.

[Farkran]

and yeah the fact that the game stalled when you got wagoned is ... slightly concerning

It is kinda weird tho

I think it implies one of the SEs is scum, prob telling their partner to stay off me to keep it looking like it’s not building cause it’s all townie

Idk if you’d do that as scum? But trying to read you is a nightmare anyway

It’s like, everything is basically NAI

this is some ... interesting logic ?
you think scum are deliberatley staying off wagon to create the impression of stalling-ness?

have you like ever seen scum do this?

Agree with this, although it may lower my townread of you a bit and i'll need to test that later.

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

[Farkran]

I currently have a fair townread on you because from your pov you see me playing like shit so you tunneled but you're likely angered town. Skitter realized she was tunneling on me, likely tried to understand my pov and switched. Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

i mean townies do the tunneling thing too
not sure that this is inherently a good reason to scumread someone, which you seem to be aware of?

so why do you think he's scum here ... ?

See my definition of tunneling in 600. emps almost immediately locked me as scum and went emotional on me. Testing his reaction while he's in lockon blindrage is a fairly strong towncheck. In my experience the standard is throwing sarcasm and insults (exactly what emps did) rather than try to convince other players with good reasoning that their target is scum - exactly what teacher did UP TO POST 541, followed by 572 where he starts ignoring my questions and talking nonsense. Given his previous behavior, this is way late in my eyes to enter berserk mode, especially when it is coincidental with

him unvoting the L-1 Menalque

BEFORE 1. intent (also a standard procedure in this site, strongly advocated by teacher himself) 2. questioning to complete. We can remember teacher happily jumping on my wagon in the 4th slot, i wonder why he jumped off Menalque's in this context even if his reads of the target are significantly leaning towards SR (see: 458 and 522). He was 2nd in slot on Menalque, for future reference.

I must say as a premise to what i'm going to say next, that i believe the "mind melding" as you mean it in this site to be a crappy strat to achieve results - i am usually VERY aware and paranoid as town. I mostly don't trust anyone unless i have VERY STRONG reads, almost never happens, especially in d1. For the same reason, in d1 i am usually never trusting myself on my scumreads and willing to reconsider quickly based on further analysis and hypotesis on the various povs. Town!emps now makes a lot of sense, but no way i am following his logic aka "mind meld" with him on my votes.
With this said, my only true very high scumread is teacher and i am having an hard time finding pov where he's town in this game yet. His unvoting of menalque also makes me reconsider the teacher-menalque team - comes back up my mind that they kinda switched slots on my train.

[Farkran]

I'm trying to reread things by inverting my pov like "what would happen if teacher is actually town" (

still scumreads me; rest of para snipped

However, Sushi/menalque is kinda reachy in my mind since i find it hard to believe there were exactly NO SCUM on my train and none of the two attempted to rush hammer me when i was at L-1. Creeper is also unlikely for the same reason. A teacher/menalque team is very unlikely. (

by eliminating these three, and his expressed townreads of skitt and NMSA**, Fark is saying the only slots pairable w Menalque are emps (see below) selynee ON WAGON and Creeper. Why would someone with an associative bent join the largest wagon w TWO OF HIS scumreads on it other than to survive?

....snip......

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate (

this is the evolution issue in a nutshell. Fark has a clear town read on NMSA, and a clear scumread on me, until now. Why does he deny the townread here. And he does so in order to go from scum to TL to at least midlining — all the while getting on a wagon w me targeting an earlier town PR read??

Sorry to do online comments but easier than multi quote in mobile. As it shows the issue isn’t just the evolution on Menalque, but also on emps and NMSA are failing the coherent band of your try. I get they approach the game differently and have different views on protown play. But my fundamental issue is not seeing the consistency in application of that approach.

Misrep.

I guess that emps might tho, and he’s been kinda pinging me for a while. So if I can get to a TR on teacher/NMSA that’s my best candidate

This is from Menalque, not me. You are also very wrong about the PR rep. I said he was attempting to play like one, not that he is. This also comes from my previous mafia games' meta, which is very different than this though. Back in the days, town had a lot more PRs since it was facing more enemies - who ofc used it at their advantage by trying to fake town PR in games. I guess it makes less sense here, and i no longer believe Menalque is playing a PR now.

@ skit 633
Farks 600 is exactly my issue. It gives a reason to TL emps, whereas 540 at least says that’s his - charitably reading- third bigger scumlean after me and Menalque. Like I’m seeing what your saying on different standards and D1 goals but the step I’m missing is I’m not seeing logical application of those standards.

You have definitely mistaken Menalque's quote from 540 as if they were my words, but they are actually his.

[Farkran]

Don't exactly expect a readlist.

Emps- pretty locked up on you. Not something I think most scum would be doing for so long D1. Also, his reads on EC and sushimartyr (partially till now) seem genuine. Townlead-townread.

NMSA- Already said plus I feel like him giving town reads wouldn't be so great for mafia later in game.



Sushi Martyr- 182 and 216 fair questions, 498 seems an in-depth read on Menalque, 220 was actually ehmm....not sure how they'd read me based on this, "I'd like a chance to do that before you condemn me though" (450) seems to me way too polite more like fear of being scumread, reads are....plausible, but tbh, not a huge fan of announcing you are basing your read on someone else's meta. Scumlean

Menalque- 181 has a good point, not a fan of scum reading NMSA there (or in 606, not sure how EC is comparable to Fark even if you consider both scummy plus NMSA gave a townread on Fark), not going to read much into changing reads because in general people who give reads very early in the game tend to change them almost entirely somewhere along the line but not much interest in Farkran after giving intent (whatever it was for creating discussions or not).

EpicCreeper- I mean the reads on Farkran and emps were based on "talk and asking question is good" which is pretty generic stuff, I agree the reaction test could have been just them deciding to back out of a scumread on Emps. No clue what his partner would be doing.

Farkran- First reads seem forced to me. Not in the way that you've changed them, but mostly that I couldn't understand them. My fakehammer- guess I'll have to believe it is game play difference...Some of the reasons for your early reads as I said, I either don't understand or don't agree with: being careful with votes, intend and so on. Your reaction being to L-1 and so has been pretty...unafraid to be lynched though and you scum read the person defending you- makes me think it was a genuine read. Menalque, as I said, you do have a point there that he gave intent and then sort of ignored it, but I find the trajectory 50 to 0 strange. Gun to my head, I'd say town for lynched-related behaviour (mostly)

Skitter- Interesting thoughts on town!Farkran- the progression of the read seems real (though I'd say the vote itself wasn't half-bad in this situation). Most questions were on point and advanced the discussion.

So, calculating the score:

VOTE: EpicCreeper

I agree with most of your points. Bolded part is exactly where my read on Menalque fell - why in the world did he gave intent on me? At first i believed it was because the game was kinda starting to stall, which would be consistent in some contexts, but you don't simply forget my existence when defending yourself from your train AFTER you started a train on me, then unvoted, then gave hammer intent.

Also interesting that you left out teacher.

pedit: even if he himself brought it up minutes later. Sely, please give an insightful read on teacher as well.

@creeper @sushi: still waiting.

[Farkran]

and i no longer believe Menalque is

playing

a PR now.

Edit/clarification: "playing" as in "faking it", i never believed Menalque was a PR.

[Farkran]

So who do you think could be scum, selynee? Could you list your potential scum teams for me?

[Farkran]

Teacher wasn't tunneling until last posts, now he's tunneling harshly which does not make any sense to me.

Nope. I just reject the idea that you shouldnt push your hardest scumread because of difficulty pairing them. Bussing and pocketing are both things. On D1 in particular, I dont care as much about associatives (as Ive said multiple times). For someone who has adopted Skitter's "understand different approaches" as his banner, you should try practicing it.

I tried reviewing with town!teacher in mind, couldn't make any sense out of it so far. I was looking for more info, which you actively stalled by unvoting menalque when he was at L-1. Scum move again, didn't make any sense, made me re-evaluate the teacher/mena team since you joined as 2nd and quit at L-1. Would be typical from SE-scum, faking to throw their partner and then panic-leaving on the hammer threat INSTANTLY.

So if I understand your posts correctly, at the time of 540, you also thought Emps was town. (I mean thats what I get from 475, but I did confuse Menalque's words with yours due to the quoting issue). That means the ONLY player you could pair Men with was Selynee, yet you joined a wagon with both me and them on it?

Teacher/mena can be a thing as of now. Selynee never joined the mena train, another casual misrep that is hardly coming from town!teacher. I also never cleared sushi. All in all you seem to be really panicking now, which makes me even more confident that mena is a good info lynch at the very least - chance of scum flipping are quite high tough.

No. What you actually said was "looks strongly like town PR to me." 381. Attempting to play /= looks strongly like.

Looks strongly town PR to me,

although i find it hard to believe at this point

Misrep again

Also by this site standards Menalque should have claimed already, am i correct?

No, claims only come after intent. HE is not on L-1 (I dont think?)

He was, just before you panic-unvoted him.

[Farkran]

Menalque was 2nd on my train and gave intent to hammer. At first i thought he was attempting to unstall the game, but reviewing from scum!mena pov it's very possible that he is actual scum.

Also read my 381 again. You are are wrong. Hardly believing something = i don't think it's true = i think he is NOT a town PR.

[Farkran]

Right, but you were quite clear he was town (sealso 404. So it was a slot you had seen at town and recognized a possibility it was PR, but still joined your biggest SR to try to get a claim?

Wasn't strong on menalque being town, faking PR is not a plus. My initial 60% read is what i believe you would call townlean (null being 50%). And guess what, my biggest SR immediately jumped off the train BEFORE the accused had a chance to clarify his crappy defense post. I could have reconsidered my read on you slightly, had you waited, but you didn't. Town!teacher would most likely deviate from his biggest SR (me) train target, but no way he would have done it that soon and for that reason alone. What were you afraid of, if you believe i'm scum? That my partner would quickhammer him? Then you would have won d2 by lynching me and then mena's hammer, gg for town, am i wrong?

*****

As an aside, despite my belief you are scum, I want to give you credit for the Townie things I’m seeing. Another one is that I have made mistakes and you aren’t jumping up and down on them despite your scumread. That’s not only pleasant personally, but also is a towny action imo (even if it doesn’t outweigh my other thoughts).

We shall speak again outside of a game context, i believe you will find myself not so much of a "bad guy" as i am playing in this game. Getting on people's nerves is one of my special perks. I never cross the line though, personal offenses and ragequit/throwing the game are way out of my league. I don't find politeness towny though, quite the opposite. Especially in newbie games, usually only mafia is able to keep its composure, because they aren't genuinely angered by townies playing bad or frustrated because they don't understand what's going on. Mafia start losing their temper only when they get discovered.

[Farkran]

Don’t think I’ve seen all the questions for me yet but: my intent wasn’t serious, and that’s part of why I didn’t ask for a claim

How high do you go on your town/scum percentages D1 fark?

I have only two very strong TRs now, namely NMSA since his starting posts and overall obvtown behavior and, after our debate and reading some of his meta, emps.

I have a TR on skitter but she has shown to be good enough at obvtowning to get any strong read - still believing she's town.

Menalque, your defense was terrible. This is your chance to explain why you reconsidered EVERYONE on your train and why you left me out of your SRs.

pedit: you kinda did while i was writing this post, your #675 was also kinda bad but please go ahead with your explanation on who you are SRing among those on your train

I have a slight TL of creeper for being too clumsy to be scum.

Sushi and sely kinda fall in a place where i can hardly have significant reads on before a flip. It's not null, because i find Sushi's behavior scummy, but i can see town!sushi as a distant VT.

I have the strongest SR on teacher.

pedit: sushi gained some points with latest posts, they sound like coming from his own brain rather than instructed from someone.

This is something i can no longer be certain of about Selynee. I have been using scum!Sely pov as a review and i can't rule out the possibility that she's been directed by SE scum ever since her fakehammer. Her leaving out teacher in her latest update (#645), and him almost immediately correcting her might just have been the greatest scumtell ever that i had been overlooking until now.

[Farkran]

UNVOTE: menalque

VOTE: teacher

[Farkran]

fakehammering is not a thing where i come from, it's considered a dirty play.

wait fakehammering is dirty play but faking that ur a newb and this is ur first game isnt????

imo the whole "rando names lol no meta allowed" is bad imo

It's my very first game on this site, not my first forum mafia game in my life, i even said it in the signup thread, before the game started.

[Farkran]

I think I get it. I don’t agree, but that is what it is.

Talk w me about the Menalque wagon “stalling out”. I didn’t see it happening before Farks vote. I feel like it was more game than wagon if that makes sense - that it wasn’t the wagon but the normal drop in activity after an early rush. Did it actually feel stalled to you? (This is more a gestalt/worldview question than a factual one, just curious about the “feel” of the game others described.

Do you think there’s a way to get creeper in? If not, any interest?

ya it did; it felt like the game just kinda ~slowed~ as he was getting wagoned, and ime that often happens in a game this size because scum are getting wagoned
there was a lot of activity in the early part of the game, and i still kinda feel like there's a lot (although not quite as much) activity now.
i def felt like there was a dip in activity for a couple of days that kinda coincided with the wagon

i could vote creeper

Agreed generally-speaking. I believe mena is town though after his posts series starting from #686.

Question @skitter: you say you may be willing to lynch creeper, what's your next step if he flips town? What if he flips scum?

[Farkran]

also ive done the whole "forgetting someone exists woops" before as scum. i dont really think it comes from town. maybe tho?

I agree and i believe it happens because as scum you have an hard time remembering that you have to fake NOT being part of a team. Instead, especially newbies on pressure but may happen to any scum party, tend to avoid addressing their teammate since they don't really need to talk to them in the main thread.

[Farkran]

The fact that Selynee's sticking around in the thread despite the high tension and has started posting more makes me feel better about her than I did before, especially because her posts seem reasonable.

The way skitter keeps defending Fark largely on the basis of him coming from a different site and being used to a different style of play, etc., gives me bad vibes.

1st paragraph: i don't really agree

second paragraph: ok :shrug:
what kind of bad vibes?

also i think this is a townie post

I could have said the same things skitter said here. This scares me. Skitter i really need you to go over your plan for the next days depending on how today's lynch flips

[Farkran]

Skit I think were going to need to compromise, and that slot is basically the compromise. Maybe Selynee - I need to reread todays stuff, which Im not going to be able to do until tomorrow. But Menalque is off the day's list for me in the same way that Fark is for you.

Why selynee?

[Farkran]

Question @skitter: you say you may be willing to lynch creeper, what's your next step if he flips town? What if he flips scum?

*poke*

[Farkran]

if he flips town i think menalque

if he flips scum i think selynee

Agreed, almost best possible answer from town!skit. Still scares me but analysis is top quality.

(Out of game: you have my respect skitter, you are a very good player regardless of faction)

[Farkran]

i dont think anyone would mind if i gave

intent to hammer creeper

claim and defend urself ty

I don't mind.

[Farkran]

wait why sely? is creeper/mena just not a thing?

Would you go at mena if creeper flips scum?

Why not sushi though?

[Farkran]

if he flips town i think menalque

if he flips scum i think selynee

Agreed, almost best possible answer from town!skit. Still scares me but analysis is top quality.

(Out of game: you have my respect skitter, you are a very good player regardless of faction)

Y does it scare u ?

Because i can

almost

see scum!skitt talking like that IF creeper flips town, very much possibly in team with selynee. Not my current read though.

[Farkran]

Failed syntax

[Farkran]

UNVOTE:

I wanna think more about scum!skitt

Dude i believe i know what you're talking about but this is not a good choice

Get back on the wagon

[Farkran]

Farkran, don't forget to explain- why is Menalque scum if EC is town when you last had him as town, why I am scum with EC here and when did you formed this view given that you've considered me as potential scum partner with teacher and at least someone else but as far as I remember never said anything about me-EC. Thx.

Eh, guess what, menalque just jumped off the train that could give us that info.

[Farkran]

Or

Radical thought

You could just

Tell us why

????

Three people have been pushed to L-1 so far: 1. Farkran, 2. Menalque, 3. Creeper.

Train analysis: selynee was on train 1 and 3 (currently on 3), you were on train 1 and 3 (left both), emps was on 1 and gave intent on 3, skitter was on 1-2-3 (currently on 3), nmsa was on 3, teacher was on 1 and 2 (currently on 1).

I assume at least 1 scum if not both of them on town!trains (i mean trains targeting a town player), and no scum on scum!trains when they reach intent. Before intent, you may find scum on scum!trains imho.

I assume town!myself, town!nmsa and town!emps atm. These are my very highest TRs, i don't trust my reads on other people that much.

Skitter now has my same TRs + town!teacher + town!skitter.

Now if creeper flipped town, you were going to look very scummy if you stayed on train, so it would have been correct to get you tomorrow. This is also true for selynee. And for skitter herself but she wouldn't mention that.

If creeper flipped scum i would pursuit teacher fiercely, but based on town!skit assumptions she would definitely look at selynee, therefore i think her analysis is top quality from her pov.
Even if i disagree with town!teacher and i'm definitely not sure about town!skitt.

Now that you left train 3, your position is kinda shaky again and you're going to look very bad in case of scum!creeper. You are not cleared in case of town!creeper. The result of n1k is also very significant.

@menalque @selynee Do you think i am wrong?

[Farkran]

Yes, you are assuming there is no possibility of a no-scum on a town lynch. Which totally could be the case especially if you have a slot like EC. Also, a strong mafia player could vote their partner if it is obvious they are going to be lynched (or maybe if they are a liability).

Look again at train comps. 1 and 3 are almost the same. No scum in both? I don't believe so.

Also, I assume top-quality means you either agree with them or that they provided some great reasons there. She scumread me (partially, I think) on an interaction with EC. Who do you think she would pair scum!EC with as either alignment? Some random slot?

Great reasoning from PoE. I would have pursuited teacher in case of scum!creeper though. Now, eh, menalque is going out of the window in case of scum!creeper.

[Farkran]

Who do you think she would pair scum!EC with as either alignment? Some random slot?

You're the only available slot to her given my assumptions and her TRs. I would rather target teacher.

[Farkran]

Who do you think she would pair scum!EC with as either alignment? Some random slot?

You're the only available slot to her given my assumptions and her TRs. I would rather target teacher.

That is, before mena jumped off it. Now we'd all target mena i guess.

[Farkran]

Oh my... VCA analysis is useless? I mean i come from another site and all but it seems to me that you analyze all the wrong things in here. Analyzing progression flow is useless especially in d1, reads flip all the time due to sheer lack of info, people playing tricks on others for reaction test purposes, post count skyrocketing so it takes a lot of rereads from all povs to get a clear idea of what's going on on people's heads, and stupid rvs/rqs to boot (i mean stupid as in they don't make a lot of sense and are usually used to get people to speak). I update my readings a billion times during d1s and so far i only got a secure position on nmsa and emps, everything else may go from TR to strong SR and vice versa in a second.

D1 you mostly analyze VCA and behavior, then possible pairings depending on vca/behav, finally you may look at words used while hunting for scumslips or strong towntells. Actual words used (aka progression) have little importance if not backed up by actions (aka relevant VCA).

i.e. emps has potentially bad VCA but very strong behavior and i can see no pairings on him.

This is how to play imho.

I did forget sushi was on my train at some point though.

[Farkran]

Look again at train comps. 1 and 3 are almost the same. No scum in both? I don't believe so.

There have been multiple trains (4, not 3):

• 119
  on Farkran
  : Seleynee, Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
  
• 368
  on Farkran
  : Seleynee, emps, skitter30, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
  
• 540
  on Menalque
  : NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
  
• 768
  on Creeper
  : NMSA, Seleynee, Menalque, Skitter (Menalque leaves in 790

You say 1 and 3 are almost the same. I assume you are talking about 368 and 768. But Spam is new. Emps is off. And Im off. So I dont get why you say they are so similar????

I will still refer to my 1, 2 and 3 for the sake of simplicity, and name the sely/emps/mena/sushi train on me as #4.

You say 1 and 3 aren't similar. Selynee, skitter, emps (gave intent on 3, see 773) and menalque were on both. They are pretty much the same train if you replace nmsa with teacher in either.

Mena's train was a bit different, but now emps jumped in too, that leaves out selynee only. On a scum!mena this day is looking fairly good. Otherwise i'm a bit worried about skitter.

[Farkran]

I kinda want to vote menalque again now but my reading of him is like a rollercoaster. I am going to iso him over the next hour or so

[Farkran]

I believe 1 scum in (mena/skitter) is plausible at this point. Not both.

Selynee doesn't look good either, team teacher/sely or even skitter/sely would make sense too. I may be willing to get sely too but i feel like i need more info about teacher/skitter first.

UNVOTE: teacher

VOTE: menalque

[Farkran]

lol. I kinda feel bad for creeper now, i honestly believed he was a distant VT doing his best to play in a new environment. Like seriously, he was playing BAD, but i could kinda... feel for him. I was actually going to advocate you a bit because me and you were the true newbies here, first game on the site and all, but claiming a PR in this context is... something you don't do with this setup. Like, ever. Before your next game i strongly advise to read some more data on how a forum mafia is played. I did the same mistake with this game, i jumped in because i really wanted to play FM again and didn't think it could be SO MUCH different from my earlier experience, but it... is, seriously. Terminology, analysis, meta influence and playerbase are all VERY different.

Eh, whatever, i'll leave my long discussion on how, back in my days, everything was different, for when this game is over. Which is going to be pretty soon.

I am a MASON

, i believe some of you guys caught that during my flow of posts. That is also the reason why i went over the whole PR speculation stuff (in this particular setup ONLY) - i know exactly who the two town PRs are, and we aren't afraid of being roleblocked because we have no night action. I did not claim on intent to prevent mafia from learning the exact game setup, and also to protect my partner. We also crumbed way earlier in this thread, i will reveal my crumb if my partner agrees.

Menalque-creeper as gamesolve is confirmed.

[Farkran]

Is it customary to give intent in any and all circumstances?

intent

, anyways.

[Farkran]

Great. See no setup with both masons and tracker.

See Column A, row 2 and row 3.

[Farkran]

I dont think Menalque is the solve tho. I think he would have discussed safeclaims - his last scum game involved a counterclaim-off. I also think he coaches in the scum-PT more -> to be active and how to respond. I mean it is certainly possible and would be fine lynching him, but want to raise that.

I need to reevaluate the other newbs.

@Menalque, in case it wasnt clear, its time to talk about your skitter evolution.

Eh, i thought for a while about whether Menalque could be NOT gamesolve, but, well... he jumped off creeper's train when it was given intent, made up some narrative about skitter (which made sense though, that is why i wanted to get menalque before creeper at the time - if he flipped scum as i thought he would, it would have cleared my doubts and we could go ahead) AND changed his playstyle based on what meta!fark did on emps. The narrative and playstyle shift were good - before he jumped off the train i literally said in my PT that i was townreading him. Jumping off the creeper train was a huge mistake.

Also i think that for some reason they couldn't communicate properly. In this setup, mafia can talk during the day in the same way masons can, am i correct? How come creeper has been playing that poorly if he could communicate with... anyone either than him here? Even i, with my inexperience of this site standards, would have told him to actually DO SOMETHING and i swear, no way he would have claimed a PR if i was his partner and he could read me.

[Farkran]

I find it a really odd play to get us both lynched to avoid Follow the Tracker when you don't even know there's a doctor but okay

VOTE: Farkran

Er... i don't think you understood how the setup works. Your game is pretty much over, so i believe i can share some helpful info for you now. If you say you are a

tracker

, the only way there can be a

doctor

would be Column B, row 3. This can only be true if in your mafia team there is a

Mafia Rolecop

, which you don't have. You have a

Mafia Roleblocker

instead, the only setup that allows a tracker claim and masons in the same game.

Of course town does not know that, but masons can be conf!town basically any time they want. Even in the remote assumption that town decides to lynch me, when they see my mason flip, they will be able to confirm that there can NOT be a doctor with a tracker in the game.

[Farkran]

119 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee,

Sushi Martyr, Emps, Menalque (Sushi unvotes after hammer test)
368 on

Farkran

:

Seleynee

, emps,

skitter30

, teacher (Menalque gives intent in 399; Skitter leaves in 474)
540 on Menalque: NMSA, Teacher, Skitter, Farkran (Teacher leaves in 541)
768 on

Creeper

:

NMSA, Seleynee,

Menalque,

Skitter

(Menalque leaves in 790

I color coded the above based on current claims and which one I believe. Assuming Creeper flips red, I think Fark, Spam, Seleynee, and Skitter are all town-cleared.

That is helpful to reverse apply to the Fark wagon, which pretty much has to have a scum. I think it makes the lynch pool essentially (Menalque-sushi-me-emps), such that we only really have to remove one. I'll take the 75%ev with pleasure.

Actually, I know you all dont know Im town, but the 540 wagon also convicts Menalque IMO. Its all town and me -- so Im either the scum or menalque is. Game set match.

Good analysis on the trains there, that's pretty much what i did in post 808. I pretty much went to the same conclusions and i just literally written in my PT that "if it isn't menalque, it's teacher. I egoistically want it to be teacher because i would have been -luckily- correct since game start but it's menalque lol"

[Farkran]

I find it a really odd play to get us both lynched to avoid Follow the Tracker when you don't even know there's a doctor but okay

VOTE: Farkran

Er... i don't think you understood how the setup works. Your game is pretty much over, so i believe i can share some helpful info for you now. If you say you are a

tracker

, the only way there can be a

doctor

would be Column B, row 3. This can only be true if in your mafia team there is a

Mafia Rolecop

, which you don't have. You have a

Mafia Roleblocker

instead,

the only setup that allows a tracker claim and masons in the same game

.

Of course town does not know that, but masons can be conf!town basically any time they want. Even in the remote assumption that town decides to lynch me, when they see my mason flip, they will be able to confirm that there can NOT be a doctor with a tracker in the game.

OK, there is clear setup confusion.

There are 9 different setups, not 3. Like a game can only be A1, A2, OR A3. Thus there is NO setup that allows a tracker to exist with masons. One of you must be scum.

I meant that Column A is the only one that allows a tracker

claim

and

true

masons, therefore they have a roleblocker+goon. He should know that, so why mention a possible doctor? In this game it makes little difference, but in one with a larger solve pool it could have been relevant

[Farkran]

unless fark crumbed his partner as well. did you?

Yes, we both crumbed, other mason can conf!himself easily.

[Farkran]

but fark is almost always the nk here

Told you i always die early, lol.

[Farkran]

And there i was, believing we were so obvious everyone would notice within 2 irl days. You guys definitely do not play by associations, do you? Back in my days everyone and their dog would have put me and nmsa together as obvious partners. Not to be mean on you, but seriously we have been throwing TRs reciprocally for NO REASON AT ALL the whole game.

[Farkran]

M

ight have finally found a game I'm motivated to play.

a

hs anyone got experience with the new setup yet?

s

elynee seems slightly scum, but not much.

o

h, and

farkran

is town I think.

n

ot sure tho.

Higher challenge level: find mine

[Farkran]

and ive been questioning why plenty of times and you just didnt answer fark

thats part of the reason i SRed you lol

I know i played a risky game, but that's because i was being like, invincible.

[Farkran]

do try to be protown with your invincibility though, Fark.

I genuinely tried though. My game experience is A LOT different than yours. Fakehammering was considered a dirty play, days lasted 48 hours (hence some of my posts containing SRs against people not writing much), WAY more PRs in our setups, etc.

We valued VCA and association analysis more than everything, progression is worth nothing on d1

[Farkran]

do try to be protown with your invincibility though, Fark.

I genuinely tried though. My game experience is A LOT different than yours. Fakehammering was considered a dirty play, days lasted 48 hours (hence some of my posts containing SRs against people not writing much), WAY more PRs in our setups, etc.

We valued VCA and association analysis more than everything, progression is worth nothing on d1

lol you come from a very different place.

I mean seriously. However, look at the result - in the end, we gamesolved based on VCA. True that it's HEAVILY creeper's fault and our CC counts as a flip, so you could say this is already d2, but despite my crappy progression on pretty much everyone except teacher (who turned out to be town, lol, sorry mate), i arrived to the conclusion that Menalque was likely scum through my methods. NMSA didn't instruct me on WHY he thought menalque-creeper was gamesolve (but he did mention it earlier in this thread), and i was still advocating creeper at the time.

[Farkran]

Also, credit for the crumbs goes to NMSA. We stopped using crumbs back there because there has been a game where EVERYONE crumbed the shit out of themselves and then any day code was banned.

[Farkran]

nah we gamesolved on creeper's claim and good reads.

Well, without creeper's claim the game would have laste what, like 1 more day? Once he flipped scum, there's no way menalque wasn't with him. And i thought that creeper was town. Not to praise myself over you guys, seriously - i think i played pretty bad, but given this is my first game on site i believe i could have done way worse.

[Farkran]

Proper Mason play is to convoluted crumb and provide the key.

I have come around to the opinion that it is a good idea to crumb generally, to trump scum counterclaims in a gamestate where that makes sense. Plus as PR I generally scum it up a bit.

PEdit: I think you played well, and also bled through a bit (enough that Skitter sided, and I was tight), but I also think you guaranteed your NK as scum would know you were indeed PR -- that was the logical conclusion of PR spec, too. I think better to use your systems, but also follow common practice a bit more.

I can agree to this - however, my role in this setup allowed for some SERIOUS risky plays, i wouldn't have done that if i was any different role. I didn't care at all about being SRed. It was also kinda one of the staples in my strategy here, to provide n1 wifom so that i could survive as lynchbait who could turn into conf!town instantly, also reaction testing everyone else in the process. Risky, but in the end it has been rewarding.

[Farkran]

VOTE: creeper

just to make sure

[Farkran]

Also, "reaction test" wasn't even part of our terminology. Here, you basically townread someone if they just say "hey, i was only reaction testing!" - you would have been insta-lynched in my world. Paranoid town was the norm.

[Farkran]

Also, remember @Menalque - no kill is perfect game.

And no, its not an insta-townread (see Creeper's attempt). It has to be a logical play, with logical follow through. Hammer testing and what NMSA at least claimed to do makes sense.

Eh, in this game i could say i have reaction-tested emps back in page 15 or something, but didn't know i could even say it was a reaction test because i didn't know what it refers to. My bad for not educating myself before joining in. I was looking to play a FM game since forever this summer, when i found this site i was like "omg i'm in". Didn't read anything else.

[Farkran]

Oh, and the mason group usually (but not always) had a Mason Leader role who could recruit any citizen but died on scum!recruit, disallowing any further recruit for the rest of the game. He did, however, kill any cult!recruit except the cult leader.

[Farkran]

ou guys definitely do not play by associations, do you? Back in my days everyone and their dog would have put me and nmsa together as obvious partners.

Definitely not. COmmon approach here is VCA/NKA/Sheep dead town. We value progressions over associations because scum tend not to obviously associate. This game had stronger D1 associations than most Ive seen, and I've lynched scum D1 in like half my games (new queue skews the value of D1 far over normal).

I agree about VCA and NKA. I don't really value progression, as in my experience it's easier to fake than association AND, from a town pov, it's easier to mistake bad progression as a scumtell when it's actually reconsideration or reaction testing instead. I reconsidered my progression on mostly everyone for both reasons, i don't feel bad for it - i was looking for other stuff in people's posts so i didn't really care.

[Farkran]

Oh hi there menalque

[Farkran]

My lynch order is mena>teacher>sushi>skitter tbh

@mena i appreciate the effort. Not even joking here, i appreciate it. However, would have we won an award or something if we got a perfect game?

If my math is correct, mechsolving only gives 55% winrate though. But this is hardly a mechsolving matter.

[Farkran]

OK, but talk to me about why Im scum, if you wont talk about skitter - for reasons that pass understanding.

@Fark, that would go to you to, since your "greatest scumtell ever" theory about me and selynee hasnt aged well. Like youve scumread me all game but been the only one (til now), so why?

Eh, could have been a huge scumtell or a simple overlook, turned out it was the 2nd. I was rereading the day as scum!sely pov because if creeper flipped town she would have been in a pretty bad spot. Turned out creeper is scum, so she just wasn't paying attention to her post.

As for why i believed you were scum earlier: i honestly trusted my gut about you being too chill about the game, provided little analysis in the early pages, tried to pocket emps and skitter (and to some extent NMSA), provided some misreps i thought you wouldn't do as an attentive town player. So far this was just me "testing" your presence in the game, i was SLing you at that point. Finally you jumped off the mena wagon way too early - my reads on mena have been rollercoastering for the whole game - jumping off his train at that time (crappy defense, no claim), just because i joined, reinforced my hypotesis of scum!teacher. I could easily associate you with selynee even without the "greatest scumtell ever" given the trains comps and scarce interaction. All in all, i believe you were a solid SR in my mind - possibly not from this site's standard pov.

My solve as mena>teacher>sushi>skitter still stands.

[Farkran]

Finally you jumped off the mena wagon way too early - my reads on mena have been rollercoastering for the whole game - jumping off his train at that time (crappy defense, no claim), just because i joined, reinforced my hypotesis of scum!teacher

This only makes sense if I’m paired w Menalque, ya? Otherwise, why would scum!me who would ouch creeper as the compromise ever deny the Menalque wagon?

That was also a possibility. I didn't think you were paired with mena (and i said so somewhere in those pages) before you jumped off, but after you did i reconsidered. Both of you were on my wagon earlier; you were 2nd on wagon (best position to enter a scum!train as scum). I was about to give you some credit when the creeper train was going on and you weren't in but menalque was - if creeper was town. Then menalque backed off and from there on i basically just lol'd at him until creeper's claim.

[Farkran]

Fark, you really think I’m second most likely?

In the remotely distant universe where menalque flips town, sure, why not

Your progression on creeper is good, but as i said i'd rather value VCA. You weren't on creeper train, yet you happily joined mine and mena's. Jumping off mena's after i joined is still a pretty scummy move regardless of result.

[Farkran]

That’s one we will have today about postgame. For me your shift made you either PR or scum since you joined me (a known scumread) on a slot you had said was your second highest town with townread increasing. Since I thought I had identified the PRs (keep in mind my 458 crumb of catching 30/32 was before this), I think jumping off is actually evidence of a town thought process consistent with my published read on you. Certainly I don’t resist Menalque by pushing my partner in his place, I would think?

I can see you declaring to bus your partner - yet refusing to actualize it until the very last moments - in place of going at menalque in this particular scenario. That's not so different than what mena actually did before the endgame lols if you look at VC only.

Also mena has always been a solid lynchbait this game and everyone was TRing you. You would have killed nmsa n1 and go for either me or mena d2. Low winning odds, true. Could you have improved them by lynching mena d1? I don't think so.

[Farkran]

Emps is also towncleared by intenting creep in 773 as well as creep horrible “reaction test” (not to mention skits read)
Skit is by wagon presence, reads of emps me and sushi - too many hard commitments to be scum liking to compbus D1, and likely to better advise

Pool = mena, me, sushi, selynee

As long as you all don’t lynch sushi I’m fine w whatever order you want.

100% agree with this

[Farkran]

I just replied and asked a nice question

[Farkran]

I’d be the lhf with the nk that he has to submit anyways, I just realized. K, that makes a lot more sense why he’d go hard on me immediately. Wow.

Also i did not understand this (mainly because i don't know what's lhf)

[Farkran]

I... still don't get it. Ofc nmsa is going to die n1 and i die n2 before i can even vote you in d3. But in case i can, i will.

No way we're going for anyone else than mena tomorrow

[Farkran]

And eh it's 4 am here, sleep time. I'll read everything else you have to say in several hours

[Farkran]

Oh my god pops i love you!

I just woke up and this had to be my first comment after game end, now let me read everything and catch up with answers

[Farkran]

could be, could be

farkran is not a pr i'm *p* sure. *def* not a mason

i'm not really getting like ~mason vibes~ running through the thread, but i could be wrong

Lollable moments

Also i still respect you a lot skitter, you didn't play bad. You were put in a very hard place as scum in this game, yet you went up to lylo and had some (not many, to be honest, but also non-zero) chances to win. This is a significant achievement in itself. I love pops though.

(i think i'm going to spam a bit due to excitement, sorry everyone)

[Farkran]

Aw, creeper, i'm sad you didn't enjoy this.

I come from the same world as you do, you know? I used to play a lot of chat mafia back in the days, before i switched to forums because chat is just too frenetic, to the point it's almost always an rvs stage where you just get lucky about your picks OR a perpetual follow-the-PR because everyone gets bored to play VT.

I sincerely hope you reconsider, if you have the time and resources to try again. It's definitely more intense, but it also feel so much more rewarding when you get a grasp of how it works. Starting as scum without any experience is... not the best of introductions to fm games. You'd have a much better experience as a town PR for your first game, so that you don't ENTIRELY have to rely on analysis. I was a jester on my very first fm game, N1ked by a vigilante. I ranted.

[Farkran]

Wow i honestly didn't realize menalque had the correct solve in d1. Good job man, you get the Cassandra award.

[Farkran]

Hahaha Farkran.

Jesters are virtually nonexistent on mafiascum.

I hope you weren't looking forward to playing them in this format.

They're not popular around here.

They were used fairly frequently where i come from, i liked the role but not to the point i'd be looking forward to play it rather than anything else, really. What i kinda strongly want to play, sooner or later, is a cult game. I loved cult.

I also like to play scum but i'm not too good at it (inb4 "you're not good as town either").

[Farkran]

It's kinda too early for me to play a cult game here though, this was my first game in a new environment, i learned a lot but i don't feel confident in my ability to play a large game with different rules. I think i'll probably queue for another newbie game, hopefully with some of you guys. Despite my aggressiveness and attention-whoring, i actually respected everyone and enjoyed playing with you a lot. Especially pops. Actually i didn't play with pops since i was dead, but i weant to. Pops also plays isaac. I am good at isaac.

[Farkran]

Like for this game should I have just kept on creeper and then come forskitt the next day? Because I considered that but I didn’t think getting off would be SR bc I thought “there’s no way anyone will think I wouldn’t just keep bussing there” and I thought skitt was also scum but also more dangerous so wanted to get the conversation going over her before doing creeper (or instead, but didn’t think it was likely)

I know you didn't ask me, but since you listed the one and only reason why i SRed you hard, i guess i would tell you. Prior to your unvote of creeper, you were at least a TL to me. I believe you could word your post as "i am ok with lynching creeper, but let's go over skitter before hammering - i find her scum for reason X, Y and Z". At least i would have read that as extremely pro-town behavior.

[Farkran]

I played some Isaac today, actually.

I lost though, I'm not that good at Isaac.

Aw. I am currently missing Greedier completion on several characters, my Lost is empty (hard as hell without the holy mantle), my XXX only has normalmode Greed, MH and Sheol i think

[Farkran]

Also i should be starting a mafiascum wiki like you guys do, let me work on it for a minute...

[Farkran]

Farkran
There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs, but you do not have permission to create this page.

How do i do that?

[Farkran]

Oh nvm, i wasn't logged in

[Farkran]

Yes, that one! I like to record my scores and provide comments about games i played, regardless of outcome. That's probably because i love reading other people's records - i like skitter's layout so i'll probably steal and tweak it for my page.

I just queued for another newbie, i think i'll play with teacher and skitter again, unless they /out it after seeing i joined. Pops, wanna join in?

[Farkran]

I think I've gotten one of every completion mark except greedier though. I haven't been trying greedier because I like exploring.

Greedier is kinda hard, i only got it as Azazel and Lilith because they're op in greed mode. My Magdalene is 100% complete though, as is... Cain, i think? Or was it Judas? Either of the two, i'll check later. Currently i am on hiatus because i hate the new quickreset key combo that may accidentally reset your run and

there is no way to turn it off

(playing on Switch).

[Farkran]

Yeah, I have room for another game, I'll queue.

I might not actually get put into the same game though, due to the guidelines about getting a minimum number of newbies and a minimum number of SEs in each game.

I hope you are allowed in, i'd love to play with you. My role wishlist is currently this, i think:

• Any Scum with pops. Or skitter.
  
• Any Town with any of you guys.
  
• Cult leader with anyone.
  
• Mason again with anyone but in a larger game.

[Farkran]

Actually i'd also like to be scum with Selynee. I see a great potential in scum!sely.

[Farkran]

Oh! I almost forgot.

@skitter: why didn't you advice creeper to quickhammer me or menalque? I mean, his slot was already kinda compromised.

Was it still during the time he didn't check scum PT, or did you think you could save him?

[Farkran]

Also why didn't you kill emps last night?

I mean, i'd probably have killed sely too, but i have been reconsidering it recently. Didn't you feel confident you could trick her into voting pops?

[Farkran]

Also why didn't you kill emps last night?

I mean, i'd probably have killed sely too, but i have been reconsidering it recently. Didn't you feel confident you could trick her into voting pops?

I’m p sure she said her plan was get pops to vote emps whereas sely was lock!town by the end so that wouldn’t have worked if she’d liked emps

Sure, no way pops would vote Sely over skitter, but what about the opposite? Sely voted pops in d3, there was at least some chance she would vote pops again in d4. I was just wondering if that would have been a better plan, despite the fact that you basically bring an assumed IC to lylo.

[Farkran]

Oh! I almost forgot.

@skitter: why didn't you advice creeper to quickhammer me or menalque? I mean, his slot was already kinda compromised.

Was it still during the time he didn't check scum PT, or did you think you could save him?

I dont remember when that happened - point me to a post and i'll see what was going on then

My wagon: 368 to 474. You actively stopped my wagon instead of having creeper hammer it. He could PROBABLY hide behind the newbie shield in d2, chat mafia background would allow that (hammers happen way quicker in there). However, he wasn't entirely compromised at that point, so you may have believed you could save him.

Menalque wagon actually stopped right at L-1 since teacher immediately unvoted after my vote, so you didn't really have a chance to hammer it.

[Farkran]

Wrt your wagon:
A) he wasnt around
B) it wasnt a sure thing yet that his lynch would happen instead (and lolhammering you would make it a sure thing)
C) iirc i still wanted menalque at ths time - i believe in trying to see if you can get mislynches in people you'd otherwise have to kill
D) i figured that i'd get townpoints for wk'ing you - if you hadnt been a pr i was p sure you'd have been mislynched

Yeah, i guess. I kinda disagree with B though, at that point i wouldn't really call it a lolhammer - i would probably have accepted a newbie-shield defense from creeper in d2, assuming it was passionate. Regardless of that, you could also rethink your bus strategy against creeper and make it more aggressive and solid.

This, along with your D is part of the reason i don't think i played really good - i knew i was confirmable town and didn't think much about the fact that other townies could not possibly know. I was careless and too aggressive for my role, i deserved a mislynch and i'm actually surprised it didn't happen. I have to thank NMSA for keeping me alive (at least until n1 happened). If i died there, the game would have been much different.

The reason i did not claim was because i thought, if i did, that NMSA would have been outed by scum VERY soon and n1k'ed. Both of us have been giving townreads of each other for no reason at all. It was a very risky play, probably not worth it, even if in the end we got to reap its rewards.

[Farkran]

Korina

LOL @her profile. Too early for me though, i'll <3 her later and persuade her to host or play a cult game for me

[Farkran]

We also had this tradition of drawing up the list of best and worst plays/players after a game is over, i hope you will like it and not get mad at it - this is just the opinion of an inexperienced outsider who loves to write reviews. You can add comments if you want to!

MVP:

emps

Despite his average early reads, he managed to hand victory to the town in lylo, and it was no easy task. He exuded enough towniness d1 that he could make up for it later when he didn't have time to put his effort in the game. I think his votes weren't just coin tosses, the reasoning behind them wasn't half bad.

LVP:

creeper

Unfortunately, he wasn't enjoying the fm style and his slot paid for that. After reading the scum PT though i don't think it was a complete disaster. Deserves another try.

Best Town Player:

emps

See above

Worst Town Player:

Farkran

I almost compromised the game by being too lynchbaity. Pretty much no one believed i was town except for my mason partner and scum. Bad reads while alive, died n1. Could have done worse, but also much better. I still think my decision of not claiming was correct, but i shouldn't have reached the point where you would ask me to claim.

I won't list best and worst anti-town since there were only 2 players in the single mafia team.

Everyone in this game deserves respect though. I think that if Selynee sticks around she could become a very good fm player, especially as scum. Menalque had very good reads, but that unvote on creeper and the self-hammer hurt town more than he intended to. NMSA and teacher deserve the credit for the scum lynch in d1, good job.

Note:

it's customary that rep players cannot be listed, otherwise pops would have been my MVP candidate for sorting out skitter correctly and leading town to win as soon as he entered the game, despite the mislynch on teacher.

[Farkran]

I won't comment on the review list - I think we tend to avoid lists like these around mafia scum due to how it can be hurtful to be singled out as bad player. We have an annual rewards section for honoring incredibly good play across all games, which is less likely to imply some other player is bad, and even that decision process has private "Nay" votes to avoid being negative.
These lists are probably far less harmful in chat mafia when you games are shorter and you can just "run it back". Committing lots of time to a game and hearing you did poorly can sting.

Totally reasonable - i'll likely refrain from doing it again unless it is universally accepted as good practice. I wanted to try it out because, back in the days, other people actually enjoyed it when i drew up my first review and made it into a custom. I just love to talk about fm games in general - i try to keep my praise and criticism reasonable and constructive, with the purpose of keeping up the conversation and provide analyzeable arguments for everyone's next game, including myself. Ofc your mileage may vary about the actual review, that is just my personal opinion which isn't more valuable than anyone else's.

[Farkran]

Looks like i'm playing under teacher mod with none of you guys

I will miss you, see ya in the next game!

[Farkran]

I am happy about teacher as mod, i have been skimming a few of his modded games and they look great! But i know none of the players, i'd have liked to have at least someone from this one. Well then, time to get some hate from new people until i eradicate all the scum.