Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[Menalque]

Hi I am a mason with…
…Hmm, who do I claim…
First name I see is…
…

…Hi, I am a mason with Adorable.
VOTE: Elements

Aww i didn’t know you thought I was adorable mastina, ty

[Menalque]

VOTE: EP

[Menalque]

@Mena, is this my punishment for the Purge shenanigans?

Correct

[Menalque]

Cool, I think ele has decent scum equity and that there’s a scum in (huh, korina, temporal lich)

Korina, have you played with mastina before/recently?

VOTE: elements

[Menalque]

Cool, I think ele has decent scum equity and that there’s a scum in (jjh, korina, temporal lich)

Korina, have you played with mastina before/recently?

VOTE: elements

Ebwop

[Menalque]

scum equity]

I've seen many people say this, what does it mean?

When I use it I’m talking about the odds that people have of being scum vs town

[Menalque]

Elements, you were in ruby weren’t you?

[Menalque]

I’m saying that there are better odds than random that you’re scum.

[Menalque]

I like Son of a Shepard. Keeping sheep in an honorable profession. I will therefor sheep your first vote. Use this power wisely.

I'm gonna slightly edit this. I'll sheep your first vote as long as that won't make me hammer.

This felt weirdly self-conscious from town and I don’t remember that from you in ruby. I also didn’t like how 36 and 43 weren’t relevant to what was an interesting discussion and could have been intentionally trying to distract or move focus away.

[Menalque]

I don't see how elements can be scum

Go on

[Menalque]

I also didn’t like how 36 and 43 weren’t relevant to what was an interesting discussion and could have been intentionally trying to distract or move focus away.

Yes. I don't want to be discussing roles at this point in time.

But whether we should discuss roles or not is a cogent point of discussion, and I don’t see why town you doesn’t just forcefully express that view?

[Menalque]

Can you guys link posts to make it easier to read what you’re talking about?

Gut is that TL v TD is TvT

More votes on elements pls thx

[Menalque]

Oh, but TD is better than TL

Pedit: i missed that but my first thought would be reaction test and if you kept pushing it I’d prob start scumreading you for it because I think I’m being pretty obviously protown at this point

[Menalque]

Incidentally, you’re in nulltown for me right now korina

[Menalque]

If no one is gonna refute my case on why elements has good scum equity for today then how about some more votes there

[Menalque]

Also kinda wondering now if I’m right about ele if TL v TD could be town v scum or scum v scum as a distraction away from ele

[Menalque]

And ooh baby, a pagetop

[Menalque]

If forest fire was a blitz game then imo it’s pretty trash to use it for meta for a normal time span game, but either way Can one of you link it so I can read it?

[Menalque]

I also have information that Mastina's claim might have some truth behind it, therefore I'm asking why.

Hmm

[Menalque]

I don't think the eth0s/korina interaction strongly implicates either as scum

Go on

[Menalque]

I agree that Korina was acting a bit weird at the beginning, but I don't like eth0s' vote there.

I did some digging on potential options for a pride flag flavour claim

+ don't like some of the possibilities for Korina's role.

That’s an odd thing to say. How exactly would you even do research? How do you think your research could be in any way reliable?

I'm calling Mena town because I know how he played, since we played in a game together, (Newbie 1949), and his play is pretty damn similar in this game.

You should read his scum game in Pokemon Ruby Mafia.

Whats your point here EP?

[Menalque]

I'm a town flagbearer, on top of another ability. I have no idea when my flagbearing ability activates, nor how many people will die when it actives, but I do know it doesn't kill every single townie, nor can it active on D1. I'm also assuming since the game was reviewed for balance that my ability is at least somewhat fair.

What? I have no idea what you’re claiming here.

[Menalque]

I don't think the eth0s/korina interaction strongly implicates either as scum

Go on

Just seems like an impasse to me, I don't think town gains much from the interaction

So you have any actual reason to believe that or any analysis or you just wanna offer a meaningless comment so it seems like you’re doing something?

[Menalque]

What is a flagbearer?

[Menalque]

I’m kinda wondering if you’re scum here kori because I think you have been misreppy of eth0s and I don’t like the way elements jumped in to back you on that

But TL is also increasingly scummy so I’m not looking forward to choosing between getting you lynched vs what might be a mislynch bait townie, it’s giving me deja vu

[Menalque]

Full claim right now korina, everything you know

And why have you only softed this instead of fullclaiming first post?

[Menalque]

Did you do this for D1?

[Menalque]

Yes, I am. I believe your claim is probably neighbourhood creating, but idk if I believe that it’s town aligned over scum aligned

[Menalque]

Why did you choose those pairings?

[Menalque]

Shepherd are you in a neighbourhood with jjh?

[Menalque]

You’re familiar with my meta so you know I’ve played with EP, mastina, momo, TD, and elements before. At least the least, I’d expect you to remember if played with at least one of them. Why would you think I would work better with eth0s than with someone I have existing meta with and an idea of their playstyle?

[Menalque]

Yes, I am.

Does yours have flavor?

Yes, a little bit, does yours?

[Menalque]

Okay, still, why did you think I’d work well with eth0s?

[Menalque]

I couldn't figure out who else to pair you with. Wherever you are in the pairing is when I added your pair. I would've paired you and me, but I self-excluded myself.

Do you mean in the list you gave? So my pair was the second you decided?

[Menalque]

Okay, so talk me through all of them. Who you’re familiar with and who you matched them with and why?

[Menalque]

Also, I’d like you to expand on what you think is similar between my and ethos’s playstyles kori, because rn I don’t particularly see it

[Menalque]

Okay, I need to think about this

I hate your claim, I can see that being a scum role over a town role most days, and I don’t like that you didn’t just claim the flagbearer instead of softing it. Also think you were misrepping eth0s during that argumen, but I read the PT with him first and he asked if I thought you were misrepping him so idk if I was primed to read it that way. Also don’t like elements, and I don’t like how he involved himself in that debate, plus I can see scum!you deciding to take heat on yourself rather than elements on account of thinking you’d have a better chance of surviving it than him.

On the other hand, I think that you’re different here to 1949 and you don’t seem like the kind of player who would shift your whole play just to avoid me reading you correctly, so I’m fairly inclined towards town for you based on that.

What do you think of elements?

[Menalque]

I would like mastina to comment too. Is she due a poke yet

@mod?

[Menalque]

God I fucking hate sorting mislynch bait but unless they’re all just scum (and I don’t think my luck is that good) I’m gonna have to with shepherd, ele, and TL

[Menalque]

I must present you with the Eels of Forgiveness, Korina. I fully believe your claim now.

This is a weird progression. I think it implies he believes korina!town which I think any towny should still be very sceptical of atm

[Menalque]

Haven’t decided what I think yet. Korina, if I assume town!you for a moment, would I be wrong to think scum!you would potentially play this game significantly around me?

[Menalque]

For fucks sake

[Menalque]

Yo korina you still there? I agree on jjh!scum but I still like elements as a partner, and I don’t really see TD as scum over one of EP/TL

[Menalque]

Everyone who just voted korina without so much as even acknowledging my last big post is on my shit list now

Ditto

I’m annoyed with korina for the self vote but sympathetic on how you can end up there from an emotional play perspective. It was the wrong move because I wasn’t sold on lynching him, but people running him up there was a mistake while we still had talking to do

[Menalque]

We’re doing jjh tomorrow just so we’re clear

[Menalque]

Elements' post there was an acceptable observation

I would lynch jjh solely on the basis of this tbh. Elements’ comment was terrible because the statement from kori that he’s calling an “acceptable observation” is about something that could only be WIFOM if it was confirmed as coming from scum, if not, then it’s just as plausibly a townie trying to get someone to rethink the situation they’re deciding about. Pretty much, it’s NAI. So to drop a raw vote when the discussion should have been about eth0s’ post was shit, but it was even worse to praise that instead of calling it out.

[Menalque]

Hey Menalque, aren't you supposed to be better at the game than this

Or have I just made that up

Guess we’ll see depending on what you fli tomorrow hey, but I’m not the one who just led a push on town

[Menalque]

I'm here. TD is just scummy in my eyes. Elements is extremely scummy, hence why I think they should eat rope after jjh does.

Oh, I missed that. Okay, groovy.

Fucksake, I need to sleep but I wanted to pick your brain about the others. Mostly I think that jjh SRing TL is a good reason to wonder if that was being set for a mislynch after you, or if it’s just WIFOM/distancing due to TL being a plausible lynch throughout the game

[Menalque]

You can 1v1 me tomorrow if you like jjh but you’re gonna lose

I respect that you’re trying to get the discredits in early considering you look fucking terrible atm

[Menalque]

Why does korina bother to keep posting here as scum seeing as if he does flip red I’m just gonna ignore everything he said from his vote to the end of day because it could only be there for WIFOM?

[Menalque]

You’re spicy as scum

[Menalque]

Why would I answer a question like that though? It's not really a question. You're making a statement about how you're town while pretending it's a question

Your approach makes no sense as town. If you’re town, you assume kori!town and try to get as much info as possible/bounce ideas around with someone who will soon be conf!town. Worst case scenario, if they are scum, is you wasted a few minutes of your life getting trolled and you can ignore everything they said after the lynch happened unless you’re a particular fan of sorting through WIFOM (or trying to).

In other words, there’s a lot of upside for town vs very little downside. It’s downright anti-town to not engage with him here.

[Menalque]

JJH, JUST ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I FLIP TOWN?

Night 1 begins, I go "huh", go to any lengths required to avoid playing with you again, and I don't think anyone other than menalque listens to your reads because while I believe you've played an abysmal scumgame, if you flip town you have somehow managed to play an even worse towngame

Mmmm, dem discredits. So when the conf!town flips conf!town we should ignore his reads which do happen to include you as his strongest SR

C o n v e n i e n t

[Menalque]

I mean yeah

Do you think Korina has played well this game?

No, but he’s got to town!me which makes sense given our meta and he’s TRing eth0s who I’m also TRing. I think your interaction earlier was scummy with him, elements has been scummy all day and he’s on scum there.

Basically, I’m mind melding with him on reads to a fair extent, so I don’t care if he got there entirely logically or if his play in other areas has been bad. Some players fakeclaim, that’s just the way it goes. Yes, it can be a pain in the ass to sort it, but so what.

Your lack of healthy scepticism about whether his slot could be town or scum is telling, because I’ve gone back and forth st least 4 times about it

[Menalque]

Do you think any of his reads are above chance? Some of the things he claimed to be looking for in scum are things I actively look for in town

I mean, I know his read on me is right, I’m pretty sure his read on eth0s is right, and I’m happy with the idea of you + elements as scum

What do you mean the things you look for in town are what he looks for in scum?

NB: if he does flip scum and I’m the NK then have healthy paranoia of eth0s. I can see scum!kori pairing us together knowing that my playstyle would mesh with his in a way that I’d likely TR him and the kill me off early to lock in my read

[Menalque]

Okay, so if he's town, he did that fakeclaim gambit bullshit to find scum, right?

Why was he looking at the people sceptical of his claim?

Walk me through what you’re saying here? I’m tired and I can’t be bothered to joint ISO the two of you to see how he got to a SR on you originally

[Menalque]

Oh, I missed the ninja

[Menalque]

Okay, I think I can only sort that aspect of jjh from ISO digging so let’s all talk TD

I don’t really see it? Idk. Elements I can see, EP is way off his towngsme and I’d be happy to lynch there. TL is very scummy but could just be mislynch bait so I need to think about it more to actually sort him. I just don’t see what you, kori and possible town!jjh are seeing?

[Menalque]

His reasoning was functionally that people who perceived his fake claim to be a lie must be scum, and people who believed it must be town, and furthermore that someone who disbelieved it but later comes to partially believe it is more likely to be scum than town

Idk if this is true, but i can’t remember/be bothered to try and remember/figure out what I thought he was saying so let’s talk about the others for now

E.g. TD. Can someone talk me through TD!scum?

NB: that someone should under no circumstances be TL

[Menalque]

like it's actually fucking sad but I think this is just shit townplay from jjh. I've seen this style many times and it usually turns out to be town in my experience

No one else in this game aside from JJH is even making sense and I'm going to shamelessly buddy the shit out of him he did nothing wrong

Hmm. Town points for thinking I don’t make sense — that’s normal, you’ll see it more clearly when I’m not on my phone probably. Don’t like that you think jjh did nothing wrong.

[Menalque]

It is true. You can tell by reading the relevant quotes that I quoted.

I don't think TD is scum

Okay, so on kori!green where is the scum?

My bet is elements, EP, TL/you as it stands


Yes, this interaction has made me TR you slightly more than guaranteed lynch for tomorrow.

[Menalque]

You're still basing shit on the idea that Korina is flipping town, Menalque

And you still haven't shown me what you'd have done to defend Korina if you'd shown up before the lynch

Because I wasn’t set on defending korina as I hadn’t made my mind up on him

The doubts in my head were: does korina really approach my slot like this when I got him as scum D1 our last game together? If he’s trying to pocket me instead does he do it this blatantly? Why does he do something that makes him look this ridiculously scummy as scum when his entire scumgame from that recent game involved him trying to look towny?

All questions that I didn’t have definitive answers to, but which I would have decided on X is more likely than Y by the end of day if someone with juice hadn’t been hard pushing him. Also you’re one of the people I imagine has the juice to get other players onto something, so I feel like you should have been much more careful especially when people started to sheep you rather than continuing to push it that hard as town

[Menalque]

okay at least I know you guys aren't buiying this bs

? Mastina?

[Menalque]

I mean I don’t wanna sound arrogant but I don’t think she needs to if my N1 NK steak wants to keep going

[Menalque]

VOTE: EP

I didn't know that Errant still played mafia, and in this game of all games no less!

Alas, I am not Errant.

Joke.


Head.

The joke sat on top of his head? I don’t get it.

[Menalque]

yeah like elbirn and jjh know that she has obviously been keeping up with the game. So that actually gives me some glimmer of hope for the playerbase in this game

Wait, do you think she has? I don’t think she has

[Menalque]

Like she’s presumably aware of what’s happened from the pedits as mentioned but idk why we’d assume she’s been keeping up

[Menalque]

even if you're right I won't be able to accept it given the fact that she just "coincidentally" waltzes in here an hour after the hammer

I believe it based on general site activity for her for the evening

[Menalque]

Actually I quite like the mastina catch ups

Look, just follow the advice of my doctor right before he gives me a prostate exam: “at this point, it’s happening anyway, so you may as well sit back, relax, and do your best to enjoy it”

[Menalque]

well she just admitted that she has been checking the neighborhood thread so idk I'm not convinced. either that or she's being a hypocrite and also hasn't been engaging in their PT at all. but even still she would have to be checking it to say that about adorable.

That’s... actually a really good point, yeah. She could just be checking the pt to see if her partner has turned up without checking the main thread. But I admit this makes that less lokely

[Menalque]

Yeah, I’m too sleepy to post any more

I may idly refresh and keep reading until I drop off thoug

[Menalque]

I’m gonna be somewhat upset if kori is scum here because it means that twilight was just trolling and not particularly game helpful to his win condition imo

[Menalque]

We’re doing jjh tomorrow just so we’re clear

You'll have to night kill me first, mate.

Regardless of Korina's alignment, jjh is town here. This is his town game.

Doubly so in the inevitable scumflip we have incoming.

I'm never lynching jjh and

I will hard resist any effort you make on that front.

You’d have to have a presence in the thread to do that mastina

Tbf I’m not sure about jjh scum now, waiting on the flip. I do think that his progression during his interaction with me was a little odd (could be pocketing?) and that his push on kori was bad assuming kori!town, which again, is the only normal thing I think to do here in twilight

[Menalque]

Also, just saying, I think scum!me would NK you N1 every time mastina, regardless of who you were pushing/defending so that’s kind of a moot point

@mastina, why do you think kori!scum bothers posting here in twilight when it hasn’t really interfered with us talking about things? Like the whole conversation has been too cogent for me to think that’s more likely than kori!town emotionally self-hammering and then trying to cause chaos in twilight, plus the fact that, again, if he flips scum it’s very easy to just disregard everything he’s said here as WIFOM

[Menalque]

My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw

Mine doesn't, but then again, the number of town reads I have can be counted on one hand. (The full list: you, Adorable, TD, Elbirn-if-Korinascum, momo.)

Interesting, why are you SRing me?

[Menalque]

I think you should be TRing me based on meta

Also you town read momo?

[Menalque]

How are you TRing someone who literally hasn’t posted?

[Menalque]

Are you seriously doing your catchup thing now

Yep!

I was disengaged.

When I am disengaged, sometimes I just go, fuckit, I'll phonepost, because I usually use phoneposting to help me get content in games I would otherwise be unable to give content in.

Said lack of engagement is why I needed to phonepost, but now that I am actually in a position where I have some semblance of investment in the game, I don't need it anymore, but this lack of needing it exists only as of today.

Of course.

Now that I know that there's been a hammer.
Need to phonepost anyway, but only due to trying to beat the mod.

Mastina, you knew there was a hammer yesterday, you saw the pedits?

[Menalque]

What do you mean when you say guarded?

[Menalque]

What do you mean when you say guarded?

I just started reading your GTKAS never mind

[Menalque]

I'm gonna be kinda out of commission for a while so schadd_ hopefully will take things over while I'm dealing with things

Hope everything is okay gamma

[Menalque]

Mastina you have the best GTKAS page but it’s gonna take me literally days to get through it all I think

[Menalque]

right, let's do this: VOTE: elbirn

[Menalque]

Actually eat my asshole

Ah, fresh, yes, served with a nice sea cucumber salad?

Oh, L. Didn't realize I died, enjoy the rest of the game y'all.

-Shepherd

somehow this is entirely unsurprising

[Menalque]

also thanks deb

[Menalque]

We’re lynching someone whose name begins with an “E” today, the only question is who

Also jjh if you could do some obv!towning that’d be nice because then I can feel less worried about whatever happened te:kori yesterday

[Menalque]

Oh, we’re not lynching eth0s, take your pick between the other “e”s

Did deb explain his read on EP at all?

And from where I’m standing you didn’t

[Menalque]

If I had to stab at the scum team rn I’d probably say 2/3 or 3/3 of (elbirn, elements, EP) possibly 1/2 of (TD/TL)

Hence my strong preference for lynching in the “e”s first

[Menalque]

Were you too busy using the scum PT to use your one with TD?

[Menalque]

Why should anyone TR you this game EP?

Like I like deb but in my experience his reads are trash so I won’t be putting stock there

[Menalque]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

Yes, he is. What do you think of that post?

[Menalque]

Why should anyone see that as town!indicative when you’re clearly self aware enough to avoid the appearance of concern of it?

I also think your whole set of posting is scum!indicative for you. What you know of me as scum is that I tunnel hard and fast. So why are you dealing with me like this is all in good faith? I think because you can’t separate the perspective of knowing I’m town from what you should be thinking if you were actually town.

I was gonna stay on elbirn to help eth0s pressure him but actually I think we just need to do you

VOTE: EP

[Menalque]

I asked you to provide justification for why people should TR you. You said "yeah, I have been scummy, but at least I'm not bothered by the fact I look scummy" as if that's actually a meaningful defence. It rings especially hollow given past experience with you: town!you is much more paranoid about people scumreading them being scum (see: EP v cinnamon in Pokemon ruby for anyone interested). Why would I not tunnel again? It's entirely plausible I'd do either, especially considering how far tunnelling got me last game. The fact that you're not even acting suspicious of me when town!you should be wondering if this might be in bad faith is you perspective slipping that you know I'm town pushing you. So instead of trying to push me back, you're trying to just sell me on town!you.

Other than that, your ISO is terrible. What have you done all game? You've done nothing. The whole ISO is filled with IIOA. You've asked a few empty questions to make it look like you're doing something, but otherwise your play has been completely devoid of substance. You asked Korina questions and then did nothing in terms of engaging with him re: the answers, you just voted him.

You have 30 posts and at best, one of them is game advancing. When you've been called on it, instead of actually scum hunting you've just made excuses. Now I'm very confident that that's newb!scum scum play because, surprise, that's exactly what I've done before and I've been caught for it too. Mastina literally caught me for the exact same thing in Can't Remember the Name of this Game, and so I can only assume she's SRing you now for the same reasons she SR me there.

Now you're trying to redirect away from yourself by getting the focus onto elements and eth0s.

[Menalque]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

Yes, he is. What do you think of that post?

I don't see the slip he's talking about.

Yet you were immediately able to identify the post that the slip may have occurred in if that's what it is?

[Menalque]

Hell of a lucky guess there, EP.

[Menalque]

sidebar: killing SoS was weird, no?

He wasn't doing much and wasn't particularly towny, so why kill there?

[Menalque]

One of Menalque/EP prob scum here, every time I unvote TL I hate myself though .

Yeah, that would be EP. Go and look at his ISO. Go look at mine. Come back. Vote for him.

[Menalque]

I want anyone who thinks EP has done things that are pro-town this game to stand up and tell me what they are now. If they can't do that, I want them to tell me what makes the person they want to lynch today scummier than him. And if they can't do either of those two things then I want their vote on EP.

[Menalque]

EP v TL feels really tvt to me

For someone who appears to be tunnelling TL, how hard do you think TD is trying to get other people to vote TL?

Honestly, I’m really thinking you could be scum because you (1) pushed korina!town and (2) are now trying to defend (by moving the focus away from) what is very likely EP!scum

[Menalque]

what's wrong with TL/EP deciding to bus after realising that one of them was going down today for sure?

[Menalque]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

Yes, he is. What do you think of that post?

I don't see the slip he's talking about.

Yet you were immediately able to identify the post that the slip may have occurred in if that's what it is?

Hell of a lucky guess there, EP.

Ok, you're purposely being obtuse here. eth0s said it happened at twilight, which means end of day + the post was taking to mastina.

I stand by my stance that it doesn't look like a scumslip.

there were twenty posts by elbirn in twilight, yet you instantly singled out the one that we were talking about?

have you actually explained why you don't think it could be a scumslip

fwiw I'm not persuaded either, but why are you just asserting "nah, don't think it is" rather than trying to actually explain why you think it's not a scum slip?

[Menalque]

Spoiler:

I asked you to provide justification for why people should TR you. You said "yeah, I have been scummy, but at least I'm not bothered by the fact I look scummy" as if that's actually a meaningful defence. It rings especially hollow given past experience with you: town!you is much more paranoid about people scumreading them being scum (see: EP v cinnamon in Pokemon ruby for anyone interested). Why would I not tunnel again? It's entirely plausible I'd do either, especially considering how far tunnelling got me last game. The fact that you're not even acting suspicious of me when town!you should be wondering if this might be in bad faith is you perspective slipping that you know I'm town pushing you. So instead of trying to push me back, you're trying to just sell me on town!you.

Other than that, your ISO is terrible. What have you done all game? You've done nothing. The whole ISO is filled with IIOA. You've asked a few empty questions to make it look like you're doing something, but otherwise your play has been completely devoid of substance. You asked Korina questions and then did nothing in terms of engaging with him re: the answers, you just voted him.

You have 30 posts and at best, one of them is game advancing. When you've been called on it, instead of actually scum hunting you've just made excuses. Now I'm very confident that that's newb!scum scum play because, surprise, that's exactly what I've done before and I've been caught for it too. Mastina literally caught me for the exact same thing in Can't Remember the Name of this Game, and so I can only assume she's SRing you now for the same reasons she SR me there.

Now you're trying to redirect away from yourself by getting the focus onto elements and eth0s.

I'm engaging with you while also asking about your reads. Calling that redirection is disingenuous.

The fact that you would rather attack than explain your read on eth0s or Elements is also concerning.

lmao, now that I've called you out on not being paranoid about scum!me if you were actually town, you've started doing it because you think that's the behaviour you should be showing as town

we're gonna lynch you so hard today EP

[Menalque]

@Mena I also asked for your Elements case before you dropped your EP!case, so that's another point in favour of a disingenuous accusation.

nice try, but I'd already made it pretty clear that you'd moved up to my top SR while I was reconsidering the game overnight, so even if I hadn't explicitly posted my case on you it was clearly forthcoming from my posts before your request that I drop the elements case

[Menalque]

Can you at least tell me why you think EP vs Mena is t/s because I am probably biased from my neighborhood but I don't understand how mena can be scum based on their interactions. If you're talking about his wagon hopping he told me in our PT he was only going to vote Elbirn for a bit to help me pressure him. And honestly I'm kind of upset he jumped ship so fast but I don't really blame him or see it as a scummy move.

yeah, I'm sorry about that, I still think elbirn could be scum maybe

EP's instant identification of what the scumslip was out of like 20 posts makes me think elbirn could have realised the slip afterwards and talked about it in the PT -- like how do you notice something as being a scumslip immediately but then claim that you don't see what makes it scummy?

[Menalque]

On day 1 I did not like the way how Son of Shepherd and Elements played and I think one of them is scum. I'll have to take a look at them again.

I have some news for you

lmao

also, adorable, could you tell me if you've played with eth0s before please?

and also @adorable, what about my play makes you think scum!me would be worried about getting on jjh's bad side?

[Menalque]

Should I be claiming here? It's a bit hard to gauge how serious the push is.

@eth0s you're going to be vital in me proving my claim btw. You probably know why.

literally, have I done anything to make you think this is not a serious push?

[Menalque]

Should I be claiming here?

ffs. Can you just put some effort into the game instead of jumping straight into a claim when you haven't given people a reason to like you

Point taken.

Ok here's what I've got. I admittedly haven't been as obvtown as I normally am, but if you look at my ISO, you'll see natural progressions on reads + a good faith effort to sort the Korina fiasco.

If you look at TL, on the other hand, you see inconsistent reasons for voting Korina. At one point he votes for jjh saying a flub=/= scum claim, but then he later says the flub makes Korina look like he was flailing.

Then when you add in the fact that TL just hopped on my bandwagon and has deflected my most recent question, you have yourself a strong case on TL trying to set up mislynches.

VOTE: TL

where are these natural progressions? show me the posts. show me the progressions.

where is the good faith attempt to sort Korina? I see you ask him four questions that he answers, not do anything with those answers, and then vote him.

[Menalque]

Friendly reminder to everyone that EP's early play is likely more AI than his play here.

scum under pressure are of course going to try and look like they're sorting/solving when we're headed towards lynching them. everything I mentioned about EP's early game being atrocious is still true, and about it being out of character for town!him in a major way

also he's misrepping about his early day content to try and make himself look townier. look at how he actually interacts with kori. there is not a good faith effort there to sort. where are the natural progressions he's talking about?

seriously, show me where they are and I'll reconsider

but you can't, because they don't exist, and you're trying to fabricate them because you're scum who's under pressure to come up with something or get lynched

[Menalque]

readslist:

adorable- town read
eth0s
mastina - town leans
TD

chem - null line

jjh, elements - null scum

TL, elbirn - actual scum
EP

[Menalque]

Alright so question

Did mastina actually have a PT with Adorable at the start of the game

Because if not I think their first post was scummy in how deliberately “random” it was

Yes they did

[Menalque]

I have read your ISO multiple times and I’m not seeing it. So show me, or it doesn’t exist.

P sure that the various other people on your wagon disagree!

[Menalque]

And chemist gets the cookie

[Menalque]

I’m a lil drunk

I still think EP is prob scum. I don’t like how he’s sat back and let jjh lead the push on TL here. I don’t think TL couldn’t be scum btw, I just think he’s a very mislynch baity player, and I think there should be more caution approaching him because of that.

EP, on the other hand, is not a particularly mislynch baity player, but is definitely scummy enough to lynch.

I also think that an EP red flip ramps up scum equity for jjh pretty significantly because he’s diverted the game to be about Stl rather than about EP and taken a lot of the pressure away there.

[Menalque]

Mastina why do you think jjh is town? I know you said something about this being his towngame yesterda, what has he done today that is still town?

[Menalque]

Mastina why do you think jjh is town? I know you said something about this being his towngame yesterda, what has he done today that is still town?

Everything?

The question isn't what has he done which is town; the question is what he's done which HASN'T been town.

Okay, let’s go with “diverting the pressure on EP away onto a slot that could be scum but is also very much mislynch bait meaning town is going to make a big fuss over it or if scum think they can get away with it possibly just be rapid lynched”

Why is that towny?

[Menalque]

Like if you think EP has good scum equity then the associationals are bad for jjh

[Menalque]

EP/jjh scum

I was just rereading the jjh ISO and it's also bad, but in a different way to EP being bad.

EP is bad because his is empty. I've already covered this.

jjh is bad in a more subtle way.

eth0s heavy post

for instance, he says that he's waiting for eth0s' heavy post (459), but after that comes does he engage with it? no, he continues hard pushing kori!scum rather than talking about whether kori is plausible town or not (464465). He takes the time to engage with the post, but only

after

day has ended and we're in twilight, in 537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post. but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion? trying to look like you're involved in the process of sorting after the possibility of doing so has collapsed is scummy, and it's searching for town points while not actually being towny.

interactions with me and twilight "kori is still scum" behaviour

then there's also his weird interactions with me, and his attitude of kori!scum is still a thing despite kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie. I think this is scum doubling down so that they can soak some of the heat for the mislynch they pushed by saying "no, look, I was SO CONVINCED he was scum, look how I still thought so in twilight even after he was dead and saying he was town!!!!" whereas I think the genuinely towny thing to do there is acknowledge you could have been wrong, and engage with the person to try and get reads/takes on the game that could help town for the next day, even if those reads might be that you're scum for making the push.

Look at my recent newbie (1949) where I self-hammered as town on D2. I was convinced teacher was scum, and he was the same on me. But there was still engagement after the hammer despite irritation where we worked together on the off chance that we were both town to try and provide town with an optimal state for the next day given the self-hammer mistake.

attempts to manipulate framing

I think there's also misreps in jjh's twilight posts, or if not exactly misreps, at least particular and odd framing: let's look at 556. "I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now". This is shading (1) presenting anyone who was doubtful as to kori!scum as someone behaving delusionally. Note, this is not the same as saying, "surely you admit kori has good odds of being scum?" which I would have totally agreed with prior to self-hammer and conf!town status. But it's making it look like the reads of anyone who was doubtful are less valuable, and it presents jjh as having followed the only logical course of action by pushing kori hard. When actually, another very reasonable course of action was to just approach the slot with a lot of scepticism and talk it out among the rest of the town during the rest of D1. The speed and severity of the push reads to me as someone who wanted to get Korina done and end day quickly, but that wasn't necessary from a town pov. kori, after changing his role claim, was always going to be a viable D1 lynch. Why doesn't town spend the rest of the day talking out whether or not there are solutions (a la eth0s) or if the scummy outweighs the potential positive utility?

plus there's 558 which is another attempt to devalue Kori's reads despite being the only person we knew would be conf!town at the time. this is important for scum!jjh because he was Kori's strongest SR on death. I don't think town cares so much about devaluing conf!town's reads. I think town chooses to keep scum hunting and to town case themself if needed should the conf!town's reads be followed. the pre-emptive shading and dismissal of the reads (plus the fact that I know one read is good, not that I expect you to be persuaded by this) is scum!motivated, not town!motivated.

progression in his interaction with me, SoaS most likely to be a NK from jjh

I also think jjh's approach to my slot was weird there. He starts off very hostile "I thought you were meant to be good" but rapidly changes to a conciliatory tone "engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town". And just now, I found something pretty damning. He says in 570 that, in regard to my point about having healthy scepticism regarding kori slot and going back and forth, that he did go back on it at one point (569) and that "SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT" (570). But SoaS never does this. The game moves on, and he doesn't comment on the point. Now, as has been mentioned by me and by jjh, SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS. He can take his voice for himself. And if he didn't in fact do that in the PT, then it stops SoaS from ever pointing that out in the future if his mention of this gets spotted (like I just did).

this also fits with scum!jjh and scum!EP. killing SoaS lets jjh provide additional cover for EP by claiming that deb was TRing him when he died. there's no indication I see of that in the main thread, so all we have to go on is jjh's word that it happened in the PT. I don't really see a good reason to believe that.

inconsistent approach to TL from day-to-day

then look at fuckin 585 "My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw". if this is town!jjh, surely he has a lot more scepticism about TL today? scepticism that was also lacking in his engagement with kori. but he doesn't, he hops onto someone he had a SR on that was "mostly" conditional on something that wasn't true, and he does that instead of engaging with me on EP!scum but instead to draw attention away from EP!scum.

The key takeaway is that, yes, jjh has been doing stuff. But that 'stuff' has been wildly inconsistent with a town mindset and approach to the game.

[Menalque]

not sure who the partner is but

probably

one of elements/TL/mastina, I could see it being any of them fairly easily

oh, and

VOTE: jjh

[Menalque]

additional note: look at the way the game state has developed, because it further supports what I'm saying.

while I was pushing EP, there was limited activity, and it was geared towards moving the focus from EP to elsewhere (in this case TL). then the gamestate was relatively active, wagon building, etc, up to the point where TL was the main lynch candidate. then activity dies off again, and despite me posting a big fuck off post, has stayed dead as people haven't been engaging with that.

so let's think about what scum want. if I was pushing a mislynch as hard as I was EP, scum would reasonably just sheep it and let me take the heat after a townflip. if I was pushing scum!EP that hard, then we would expect scum to be active in the game, trying to move the lynch away, which is what happened. then, scum, once the lynch is looking more secure on a townie, ease off to let it be carried through as deadline approaches by the apathy caused by not being active in main thread. again, I think that's what we were seeing with TL!wagon (who, yes, I now think is more likely town by PoE). then when efforts are made to reinvigorate the game state, they choose not to engage (see: the lack of reaction to my jjh case) to try and keep the game dead and apathetic

[Menalque]

Go ahead and respond

[Menalque]

If jjh is scum then mastina is prob a partner, but I TR mastina so willing to go with her on jjh for now

Also, the TL hop on was bad, but EP is still the lynch to make for today

VOTE: EP

mod, VLA until Wednesday evening pls

So y’all know I’m currently moving country

[Menalque]

Eth0s what are your reads atm?

Am I right in thinking that you’re talking about EP when you say voting for someone you don’t wanna lynch?

Also, yes, yes, I know there is other stuff for me to get to. I’ll be looking at it tonight/maybe tomorrow

[Menalque]

I am feeling really apathetic towards this game now. Can we just lynch elements thanks.

Talk to me about elements vs EP va TL bby

[Menalque]

Am I right in thinking that the lynchpool for most people today is something like (EP, elbirn, TL, ele)?

Could we try to narrow that down to 2 candidates so that we have a choice but it’s clearer what everyone’s defined stances are

At this point I’d like to lynch in (EP, TL)

My list for preference would go

1) EP
2) TL
3) ele
4) elbirn

[Menalque]

I assume anyone in that group is removing them self but could you please state your preferences on the other 3 for the group

[Menalque]

Kiiiinda worries that the dead gamestate means that we might be completely off tho

But I’m balancing that against scum feeling really demotivated from all potentially being in the lynchpool which could also explain the gamestate

[Menalque]

Where is this overwhelming consensus that you speak of?

[Menalque]

Eth0s what are your reads atm?

I was trying to get to this earlier but I really need to check ISOs to flesh out my reasoning, and the site has been running so slowly. I will try to chip away at it over the next couple of hours as I load up quotes.

Unless you just want some barebones/minimal info reads in which I guess I could provide those but I hardly see that as useful

I am feeling really apathetic towards this game now. Can we just lynch elements thanks.

Talk to me about elements vs EP va TL bby

same as above to a degree but I can go into this at least based on what I remember.

Elements: I feel pretty good about this one flipping scum. His low content in this game and seemingly strong desire to active lurk and pretend like he is doing something really pings me the wrong way. Normally I might feel a bit hesitant to lynch him since it's common PR play as well, but I'm 99% sure everyone in this game is a PR (unless someone actually submitted items to try and get VT LOL) so that point is pretty moot. Him dodging my questions only adds to the bad vibes.

EP: His recent play is cleaned up a bit, even if it was somewhat forced to occur in the first place. I wouldn't let him off the hook totally -- and I haven't, but like I said before, there is something I am waiting to happen/not happen that is currently preventing me from wanting to go through with a lynch on him at this time. I can't really say more than that without potentially harming the gamestate. I would probably be more inclined to share if we had our PT but that dream is dead :/

TL: I think I've covered this pretty well, no? His townplay is chaotic. His scumplay is likely also chaotic. For how little I care for the current state of the game I could easily fall into a tunnel on him like I have before, but then I'll just get pissed off and end up vote parking him on a potential mislynch. Hence my hammer solution.

Why won't you vote Elements with me?

I’d be interested in the barebones one, esp I’d like to know where you are on mastina atm

I think EP has the best chance of flipping scum, but I still trust you enough that I’m willing to go with you on your thing

I’m willing to do elements based on that

VOTE: elements

[Menalque]

Kinda giving me jeebies how elbirn got on it tho

[Menalque]

I really think we should be lynching in EP and TL

Explain in depth why

What’s your read on eth0s btw?

[Menalque]

I’m explicitly interested in why EP flipped to your top lynch preference over TL, which is why I asked for in depth

[Menalque]

Okay, so who do you think is the scum then? Leading away from EP/TL I mean

If eth0s is very town, then why not go with him on his thing with sorting EP later?

What’s your read on ele?

[Menalque]

VOTE: Elbirn

Okay at this point if Elbirn isn't scum then I don't think anyone is scum.

Elbirn lied about being a gladiator of all things!

Wait, did he? Where?

[Menalque]

I don’t see why that’s scummy

It’s (1) pretty patently fake

(2) if anything the effort to gambit there is prob lowkey town indicative

[Menalque]

A lot of that case seems v stretchy

What about shit posting/naked votes makes him scum? Why do you think that behaviour is more likely to come from scum than from town?

[Menalque]

Yo elbirn can you talk me through your progression on mastina?

[Menalque]

if your entire ISO is shit posting... that's another thing, a lack of effort is anti-town.

Do you think elbirn’s entire ISO is just shit posting?

[Menalque]

I still think TL is just stupid town

Why do you think this as opposed to him being scum trying to get you mislynched?

[Menalque]

I just reread ele’s ISO again and I don’t think it’s town!ele this game

[Menalque]

Partly because it’s just v empty and devoid of content but also the tone seems much more carefully managed. The occasional bits where he’s jokey sound more to me like someone trying to replicate the sound of their towngame than someone genuinely living it

[Menalque]

Wait when was chem ever conf!town? I do think he’s town but I don’t remember him being conf!town?

[Menalque]

Also I was worrying a tiny bit about eth0s just due to the drop off in activity but this is Good Content (tm) and I don’t think it comes from scum

Eth0s is locktown now, I don’t get why scum makes this much effort in a gamestate like this

[Menalque]

Wait when was chem ever conf!town? I do think he’s town but I don’t remember him being conf!town?

According to Mastina he is. And no one ever really challenged that except for me. If I'm wrong someone should point it out but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Oh, was this the argument that his scumbuddies would have demanded a replacement? I thought that had some logic behind it and was a fair reason for chem!town but not conf!town material.

I do think chem is town tho. I don’t think scum him draws attention to his lack of activity unnecessarily, I think scum him just continues to lurk out. More content from him would be nice tho

[Menalque]

We need to be thinking about making a decision here

I think elements and EP have a pretty neat equal likelihood of flipping scum at this point

I would prefer elements because I have a strong TR on eth0s rn and he does have a strong preference for elements > EP

For those who still object, can you state why? Otherwise, can we try to get to a compromise soonish even if we don’t end day that prematurely so we know what we’re doing when deadline comes

[Menalque]

ugh, do I have to claim now?

Yes, you should claim.

[Menalque]

What is an inaccurate bloodhound?

Your next post should have all the information you can possibly give us from your role PM without breaking the rules

[Menalque]

Do you think that has a bearing on his alignment?

[Menalque]

God I’m getting cold feet about this now because I still don’t see why ele kills SoaS and not me when I was the one who was on him hardest D1

[Menalque]

Elements' claim implies we have either 3p or multiball which is admittedly very concerning to me tbh

I don’t think it necessarily does due to the power nature being linked to what’s submitted as an item

[Menalque]

I’m v down to lynch this claim btw

Ironically, given the fact that it’s a bloodhound, it smells like bullshit

[Menalque]

I believe the two options here are that he's lying and he's scum or that he's telling the truth and he's town

That isn't going to be a scum role in this setup

No shit that’s not gonna be a scumrole in this set up

The scum would really need confirms on whether people are town or not wouldn’t they

[Menalque]

I still wanna lynch it

[Menalque]

There are reasons related to my power that make me think elements is still a good lynch today

If we mislynch then I’ll explain tomorrow why I’m still saying this is a good lynch as of now

[Menalque]

Unless it's a hard thing, my setup spec is better than yours

I’m shit at setup spec, it’s not super related to that but it’s a good reason to just do ele rather than forcing another claim

[Menalque]

I feel p good about 1 of (ele, EP, TL) (ele, mastina, jjh) (elbirn, ele, TL) containing 2 of the 3 scum tbh

I just also think that the combination that’s least likely is (ele, mastina, jjh)

[Menalque]

We should still lynch ele

[Menalque]

Is that a vonnegut quote?

[Menalque]

This may be the towniest you’ve been all game elbirn

Or you’re scum egging me on to lead a mislynch

[Menalque]

Is that a vonnegut quote?

I am in fact a manic pixie dream boy

so yes

This may be the towniest you’ve been all game elbirn

Or you’re scum egging me on to lead a mislynch

I've always been this town but nobody understands me anymore

I'm not moving my vote anywhere barring an act of God so if we're wrong we can be wrong 2gether4ever

Ugh just marry me elbirn

[Menalque]

TD/TL if you’re around vote ele for great amounts of justice

[Menalque]

if someone is going to hammer can they declare it first so I can self hammer?

You do you homeboy

[Menalque]

got to keep my three game streak going

Of self-hammers?

[Menalque]

That’s cool have fun w/ it

How many of those self hammers were on town!you?

[Menalque]

Yo TL i see you’re online

Come here and vote for ele

[Menalque]

I’ll even give you a bit of towncred for the bus if he flips red!

[Menalque]

Also elbirn so what do you say?

[Menalque]

Also elbirn so what do you say?

About what?

1293

[Menalque]

Hey everyone. Anything pertinent for me to know?

Yeah we need a vote on elements pls and thank

[Menalque]

We should still lynch ele

We sure should, but everyone's gonna pussyfoot around the claimed PR in a game where everyone has a role so here we are, trapped in the amber of this moment, Mr. Pilgrim.

Like, okay, I get it. The claim is an unreliable magic 8 ball. Reply hazy ask again later hahahaha. Flavor isn't alignment scum role cops exist let's move it along blood for the blood God

Has anyone even unvoted? Was jjh on it? I'm kind of drunk but both mena and I are sticking to the lynch so this uh.. feels weird?

Yeah jjh brought it to L-1 and then unvoted

I actually think elbirn is town now lol, maybe it’s a tone thing but his posts the last page or so have swung me

[Menalque]

Suji are you an alt?

[Menalque]

Mena what do you think about jjh and tl if ele flips red

I straight up think it’s jjh and mastina if it flips red

[Menalque]

Specifically the jjh/ele interaction to me feels like it could be scum!jjh trying to "I'm better at setup spec than you" his way into saving his buddy with potential ass-coverage with the "this role cant be scum" thing. Like jjh I have been able to coexist with for long enough but now that he is derailing a wagon on obvscum I'm starting to second guess my TR.

God dat mindmeld

And I think that scum!jjh strongly implies scumastina from the way she interacts with him

If green then jjh looks a lot better and it’s prob suji, TL and maybe adorable?

[Menalque]

Hey everyone. Anything pertinent for me to know?

Yeah we need a vote on elements pls and thank

I was told not to listen to this. Would you like to help me understand why I should?

Yes, ele is scum and we’re getting close to deadline

I think my ISO contains good arguments for why he was deeply unimpressive D1 and why that’s scum indicative

At least 1 person (I think eth0s here if you look at his ISO) has made a case D2 for why ele is scum

[Menalque]

Is this your first game suji? Also could you say who your friend is?

[Menalque]

Stop making posts like 1286 that make me TR u then

Also reply to my marriage proposal u hussy

[Menalque]

U can’t have him he’s mine

[Menalque]

Stop making posts like 1286 that make me TR u then

Also reply to my marriage proposal u hussy

Srry mena I don't like boiz

Wait what I’ve never been so insulted in all my life

[Menalque]

I targeted ele N1

[Menalque]

I'd like to see how Menalque engages with a scumread in eod but I don't know if we'll get to see that

are you talking about you? I'm mostly SRing you conditionally on this flip being red

if it's not then your town equity goes up a lot

[Menalque]

if I ask who you targeted is it gonna give too much away?

[Menalque]

but like the reason I wanted ele lynched was because I'd targeted him N1

[Menalque]

lol why am I not dead

VOTE: jjh

[Menalque]

Let’s get this done peeps, jjh isn’t living until tomorrow after that end f day plau

[Menalque]

Let’s get this done peeps, jjh isn’t living until tomorrow after that end of day play

Ebwop

[Menalque]

Weird fuckin NK again TBH

[Menalque]

Bum bum bum let’s lynch jjh

[Menalque]

Gonna be funny when we lynch you and you’re telling the truth about that but you’re just scum anyway

[Menalque]

Also menalque, you're gonna have to do better than eod shit

I was wrong about elements' alignment but that was because I was right about whether or not he was lying.

lol what moonlogic is this

[Menalque]

Nah they weren’t

[Menalque]

You’re too much of a liability to live at this point anyway jjh

If it’s true and you’re town then I think it’s reasonably likely that scum just kill you tonight as you’ve claimed that if you take any damage you die, and scum prob have something that does at least some damage

So why keep you alive when there are always gonna be massive questions over your slot, there’s good reason to believe that you’ll flip red, and decent odds that if town then we just lose two town tonight?

[Menalque]

I think you’re trying to come in hard and early to avoid getting lynched bc you’re scum

[Menalque]

It’s literally ele, jjh, mastina

There you go, game solved everyone

[Menalque]

Let’s get this done peeps, jjh isn’t living until tomorrow after that end f day plau

I have a day 4 ability and also if I take damage I die

I can confirm this

go on

[Menalque]

Why, if you’re claiming, are you just drizzling facts

Why are you doing it when there’s 1 vote on you

[Menalque]

Chem who was your pt with again?

[Menalque]

Why, if you’re claiming, are you just drizzling facts

Why are you doing it when there’s 1 vote on you

Because you have the option at any point to stop paying attention to me. I think you're town and would rather you don't waste time pushing me the whole day, but I don't mind you scumreading me

Okay if we pretend you’re town then go find me the actual scum

Bc rn I think it’s legit just you and mastina

[Menalque]

I kinda want more content from adorable today

[Menalque]

What do you think of suji?

[Menalque]

I’m also interested in what mastina does next but I don’t really wanna lynch her today

[Menalque]

Well

Yet