Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[EspressoPatronum]

Lmao, +1 for the flavour of our lynch being us shoving people off the table.

This is going to be a fantastic game.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena, is this my punishment for the Purge shenanigans?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

I didn't know that Errant still played mafia, and in this game of all games no less!

Alas, I am not Errant.

[EspressoPatronum]

Elements, you were in ruby weren’t you?

Fwiw, I agree with Elements that we shouldn't be flavour revealing yet. It might help the scum team narrow down PR possibilities.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmm, not sure why it quoted 53 there.

[EspressoPatronum]

If no one is gonna refute my case on why elements has good scum equity for today then how about some more votes there

Is the post below your full case?

I like Son of a Shepard. Keeping sheep in an honorable profession. I will therefor sheep your first vote. Use this power wisely.

I'm gonna slightly edit this. I'll sheep your first vote as long as that won't make me hammer.

This felt weirdly self-conscious from town and I don’t remember that from you in ruby. I also didn’t like how 36 and 43 weren’t relevant to what was an interesting discussion and could have been intentionally trying to distract or move focus away.

I could also see town being self-conscious in fear of people scumreading them for priming an excuse to hammer. I've qualified answers as town before.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: TemporalLich

TD's case against TL is pretty interesting, especially considering it's D1 and there's not much else to go on.

[EspressoPatronum]

Eth0s' initial impressions and post-sleep catch-up post:

Spoiler:

Has anyone played with TL before? Is this par for the course?

My last game I played with TL he was a town PR doing basically the same thing he is doing now with generally inconsistent and flail-y stances and it was honestly one of the most frustrating town games I have ever played. To put it in perspective, I heavily wanted to lynch him even when he claimed PR without a CC. I honestly don't want to give myself the same headache of sorting him again. At least not this early in the game. It will consume me. He also claimed PR while not defending himself from a wagon at all, on day one. Like his defense

WAS

"I'm a PR" on day freaking one.

Yeah I already don't want to touch this topic.

In other news I have been awake for over 24 hours and feel like I'm not really processing things correctly atm but so far I am getting good vibes from Menalque's desire to press people and get some good discussion going. I have some gut townpings on espresso based on his meta. I especially can't tell how I feel about TD yet with my brain running on fumes.

I need to sleep before I even think about who could be scum here.

Okay I got some sleep and I take back the gut town ping on espresso; there's not even any content there so not sure what made me even say that lol.

Korinas opening felt awkward to me. I will admit this is my first upick type game so I feel like I might just not understand what's going on but something about that whole flavor claim (I think that's what you call that) doesnt really sit right with me.

I stand by not wanting to try to analyze TL yet because I care about my mental health today but I have to wonder what's going on from TD's perspective. It sounds like they have some history with TL but in that case I would really like to be enlightened how they think they can accurately read him. Esp this early on. On the one hand I wonder why scum!td would take this push on TL like that since his meta is verifiably unpredictable, making the push kinda seem opportunistic. On the other hand maybe there's some history to suggest TD wants TL out of the game out of fearing the slot? I need some backstory here.

Btw I see a parellel in this scenario with my last game with TL in which scum!robbnova was pressing a hard 1v1 with towncop!TL on day 1 early, later called it a reaction test and said TL failed, and then pushed TL much harder as a result. This isnt really that significant I guess but it's just weird.

I could see these posts coming from scum.

The first looks like an attempt to give at least some token effort reads from a first glance. The second looks like a more informed attempt at shaping those initial reads.

I agree that Korina was acting a bit weird at the beginning, but I don't like eth0s' vote there. I did some digging on potential options for a pride flag flavour claim + don't like some of the possibilities for Korina's role.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm calling Mena town because I know how he played, since we played in a game together, (Newbie 1949), and his play is pretty damn similar in this game.

You should read his scum game in Pokemon Ruby Mafia.

[EspressoPatronum]

The second looks like a more informed attempt at shaping those initial reads.

can you elaborate on why you think this

It looks like you reread the thread before posting your second catch-up post.

You backtracked your town ping on me and went more in depth on the TL/TD debate.

[EspressoPatronum]

I agree that Korina was acting a bit weird at the beginning, but I don't like eth0s' vote there.

I did some digging on potential options for a pride flag flavour claim

+ don't like some of the possibilities for Korina's role.

That’s an odd thing to say. How exactly would you even do research? How do you think your research could be in any way reliable?

I searched 'negative utility' roles in the Mafiascum wiki. The wiki lists all roles and their general impact on town, so I'm pretty happy with its reliability.

[/quote]

I'm calling Mena town because I know how he played, since we played in a game together, (Newbie 1949), and his play is pretty damn similar in this game.

You should read his scum game in Pokemon Ruby Mafia.

Whats your point here EP?[/quote]

Aside from your tunneling in Ruby, I'd say your town and scum play is pretty consistent. You're active and inquisitive regardless of alignment.

[EspressoPatronum]

I agree that Korina was acting a bit weird at the beginning, but I don't like eth0s' vote there.

I did some digging on potential options for a pride flag flavour claim

+ don't like some of the possibilities for Korina's role.

That’s an odd thing to say. How exactly would you even do research? How do you think your research could be in any way reliable?

I searched 'negative utility' roles in the Mafiascum wiki. The wiki lists all roles and their general impact on town, so I'm pretty happy with its reliability.

I'm calling Mena town because I know how he played, since we played in a game together, (Newbie 1949), and his play is pretty damn similar in this game.

You should read his scum game in Pokemon Ruby Mafia.

Whats your point here EP?

Aside from your tunneling in Ruby, I'd say your town and scum play is pretty consistent. You're active and inquisitive regardless of alignment.

EBWOP

[EspressoPatronum]

If it isn't activated yet then couldn't a vig just shoot you for safety? Or is the play to keep you healed or jailed or what? Obviously we don't want protector roles to claim but if we don't know that we have any then isn't letting you live a giant risk in of itself for the future of the game, assuming you are town?

These are great questions. Town ping from eth0s for this.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Adorable what flavour items did you and mastina submit?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Korina, you have a negative utility role that doesn't activate its negative utility until after today. In addition, there's a chance (be it small or large, it doesn't really matter) that you're just scum lying.

On the latter point, your posting, activity, and tone here are within the scum range you demonstrated in your Newbie game with Mena.

In my eyes, the only reason not to lynch you today is to maintain your neighbourhood power. It's definitely a great power, but I'm not yet sure if it's worth keeping over the risk your role poses to the town.

Here's some specific comments/questions re your power, but feel free to add anything else that comes to mind:
1. I'm not sure I fully appreciate the strength of your power for town. It's great that we get personalized neighbourhoods, but is that it?
2. I recall you mentioning something about a modifier or something... can you remind me?
3. I can't shake the concern of scum!you having access to the PTs.
4. How do we best utilize the PTs?

[EspressoPatronum]

Sounds like it activates any day after day 1. And probably takes 1 health away from everyone on his faction.

It's fair to assume it either kills ppl or he's lying + it does 1 dmg.

[EspressoPatronum]

I haven't looked at the VC, so consider my vote on Korina once I double check tomorrow. He was pretty committed to the negative utility of his role + the backpedaling is a big red flag for me.

I'd also like to hear from a few others before we push the lynch through.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Korina

L-1

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Korina

L-1

L-2*

[EspressoPatronum]

Welp, that was a spicy EOD.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena, yeah, I'm way off my game. The whole essays of 1v1 is a little too much for me. I prefer wallposts laying it all out in an organized manner. It's easier to engage with and respond to that.

The bottom line for me is this: Korina lied and got caught in it. Town don't/shouldn't lie if they can avoid it, so I'm happy to lynch there D1. I've lynched for weaker reasons on D1.

[EspressoPatronum]

I can't wait for mastina to catch up to all the "mastina pls" posts, lol.

[EspressoPatronum]

To be completely transparent, I don't think I've ever had a scum game on this site, so I doubt DEB would know my scum game.

That being said, he's seen my town game on 2-3 occasions. Mena is another who may have an idea of my meta, as I've played ~2 games with him.

[EspressoPatronum]

TD and I didn't use the PT very much btw. We mostly discussed how/why we might be in a PT.

I was kinda worried it would be like FlavorLeaf's scum power in the Pokemon Upick + I didn't want to discuss too much. TD also gave me a heads up that he was going to prod TL because of TL's weird reactions early D1.

[EspressoPatronum]

Were you too busy using the scum PT to use your one with TD?

Lol. You know it!

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

[EspressoPatronum]

Why should anyone TR you this game EP?

Like I like deb but in my experience his reads are trash so I won’t be putting stock there

I haven't looked super town imo, but I also haven't been concerned about your scumlean on me.

I feel like scum!me would care more about your read of me.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

Yes, he is. What do you think of that post?

I don't see the slip he's talking about.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena what's your case on Elements?

[EspressoPatronum]

Why should anyone see that as town!indicative when you’re clearly self aware enough to avoid the appearance of concern of it?

I mean, you asked how I'm town this game and I told you. Did you want me to lie and say I thought I looked towny for BS reasons? That's not helpful at all.

I also think your whole set of posting is scum!indicative for you. What you know of me as scum is that I tunnel hard and fast. So why are you dealing with me like this is all in good faith? I think because you can’t separate the perspective of knowing I’m town from what you should be thinking if you were actually town.

Interesting. Expand on why you think my posting is scum indicative. You might be the only person left with an idea of my meta, so being vague isn't helping anyone.

Re your scum game - I also trust that you're self aware enough not to tunnel again. Assuming otherwise is just assuming you're unable to adapt your playstyle.

I was gonna stay on elbirn to help eth0s pressure him but actually I think we just need to do you

What's your read on eth0s btw?

VOTE: EP

RIP

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Elbirn
He scumslipped in twilight. Thinking this could be scummates with mastina. fwiw I see him voting mastina there as an acknowledgement of his scumslip and it looks like they are trying to distance for damage control.

Are you talking about 695?

Yes, he is. What do you think of that post?

I don't see the slip he's talking about.

Yet you were immediately able to identify the post that the slip may have occurred in if that's what it is?

Hell of a lucky guess there, EP.

Ok, you're purposely being obtuse here. eth0s said it happened at twilight, which means end of day + the post was taking to mastina.

I stand by my stance that it doesn't look like a scumslip.

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler:

I asked you to provide justification for why people should TR you. You said "yeah, I have been scummy, but at least I'm not bothered by the fact I look scummy" as if that's actually a meaningful defence. It rings especially hollow given past experience with you: town!you is much more paranoid about people scumreading them being scum (see: EP v cinnamon in Pokemon ruby for anyone interested). Why would I not tunnel again? It's entirely plausible I'd do either, especially considering how far tunnelling got me last game. The fact that you're not even acting suspicious of me when town!you should be wondering if this might be in bad faith is you perspective slipping that you know I'm town pushing you. So instead of trying to push me back, you're trying to just sell me on town!you.

Other than that, your ISO is terrible. What have you done all game? You've done nothing. The whole ISO is filled with IIOA. You've asked a few empty questions to make it look like you're doing something, but otherwise your play has been completely devoid of substance. You asked Korina questions and then did nothing in terms of engaging with him re: the answers, you just voted him.

You have 30 posts and at best, one of them is game advancing. When you've been called on it, instead of actually scum hunting you've just made excuses. Now I'm very confident that that's newb!scum scum play because, surprise, that's exactly what I've done before and I've been caught for it too. Mastina literally caught me for the exact same thing in Can't Remember the Name of this Game, and so I can only assume she's SRing you now for the same reasons she SR me there.

Now you're trying to redirect away from yourself by getting the focus onto elements and eth0s.

I'm engaging with you while also asking about your reads. Calling that redirection is disingenuous.

The fact that you would rather attack than explain your read on eth0s or Elements is also concerning.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena I also asked for your Elements case before you dropped your EP!case, so that's another point in favour of a disingenuous accusation.

[EspressoPatronum]

Should I be claiming here? It's a bit hard to gauge how serious the push is.

@eth0s you're going to be vital in me proving my claim btw. You probably know why.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yes, when korina hammered himself and said he was town I took him at his word because he is not the first nor the last village idiot to do shit like that. Not to mention that he continued to babble nonsense in thread for another 24 hours and I don't think scum does that.

If I'm scum why do I REEEE at dead town for being detrimental to the town faction when I could have done what any smart scum does and stop posting for the day?

alright I believe you could be town.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

Espresso is starting to seem scummy especially in 763

Explain exactly why you think it's scummy. It looks like you're just an opportunist hopping on my wagon.

[EspressoPatronum]

Should I be claiming here?

ffs. Can you just put some effort into the game instead of jumping straight into a claim when you haven't given people a reason to like you

Point taken.

Ok here's what I've got. I admittedly haven't been as obvtown as I normally am, but if you look at my ISO, you'll see natural progressions on reads + a good faith effort to sort the Korina fiasco.

If you look at TL, on the other hand, you see inconsistent reasons for voting Korina. At one point he votes for jjh saying a flub=/= scum claim, but then he later says the flub makes Korina look like he was flailing.

Then when you add in the fact that TL just hopped on my bandwagon and has deflected my most recent question, you have yourself a strong case on TL trying to set up mislynches.

VOTE: TL

[EspressoPatronum]

Explain exactly why you think it's scummy. It looks like you're just an opportunist hopping on my wagon.

It seems like you're throwing shade at Menalque and I have a feeling you're hard defending Elbirn with a fake reason despite 695 obviously not being a scumslip.

Answer my question plz.

[EspressoPatronum]

re defending Elbirn - even eth0s seems to have backed off of Elbirn. He has a plausible reason for killing Korina... but you don't.

[EspressoPatronum]

[spoilerTL is scum=]

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

TL votes jjh because jjh is pushing the flubbed = scum story and TL doesn't like it.

just in case Korina is a scum who flagbears

town

(which would be really overpowered lol)

Positioning for a potential swing onto Korina if the wagon picks up

I will refrain from scumreading Korina as Korina is effectively V/LA today

Delaying the scumread. Waiting to see if Korina is a secure mislynch.

but the gambit combined with the flub means Korina is openwolfing...

Intent to vote Korina

Hmm, he JUST said that he hated the flub. Now it's suddenly enough to warrant the vote?

VOTE: Korina

L-1

Korina I think you're flailing at this point.

Gets on the wagon early enough not to hammer, but late enough that he's almost certain Korina is going to die anyway.
[/spoiler]

[EspressoPatronum]

Welp, I messed up the spoiler tag. Ah well.

[EspressoPatronum]

Explain exactly why you think it's scummy. It looks like you're just an opportunist hopping on my wagon.

It seems like you're throwing shade at Menalque and I have a feeling you're hard defending Elbirn with a fake reason despite 695 obviously not being a scumslip.

Answer my question plz.

You can't just tell me to answer the question again just because you don't like my response.

I want you to comment on the reasoning I used in my post, not just deflect it by saying I'm throwing shade at Mena. Of course I'm throwing shade at Mena in that post - I'm saying he's being obtuse!

Read over his reasoning and tell me why you think it flows. If it doesn't flow, then you have an even weaker basis to be on my wagon rn.

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso, that's a really dishonest way to ask a question... by expecting me to have answered it already and calling me scum for not doing so.

Because of that, you will not get an answer

.

Gaslighting and another non-answer. Nice.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yes, when korina hammered himself and said he was town I took him at his word because he is not the first nor the last village idiot to do shit like that. Not to mention that he continued to babble nonsense in thread for another 24 hours and I don't think scum does that.

If I'm scum why do I REEEE at dead town for being detrimental to the town faction when I could have done what any smart scum does and stop posting for the day?

alright I believe you could be town.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

Espresso is starting to seem scummy

especially in

763

This implies there's more than 763 that caused you to think I'm scum. What posts are they and why do you think they're scummy?

[EspressoPatronum]

Explain exactly why you think it's scummy. It looks like you're just an opportunist hopping on my wagon.

It seems like you're throwing shade at Menalque and I have a feeling you're hard defending Elbirn with a fake reason despite 695 obviously not being a scumslip.

You had also

just

said Elbirn could be town, but then you accused me of defending Elbirn. What?!

[EspressoPatronum]

pedit: I said you were defending Elbirn with a fake reason. As in I believe you're just trying to make Elbirn look towny instead of showing how Elbirn is towny.

Do you think Elbirn made a scum slip in that post?

If you don't think it's a scum slip, you have the exact same reason as me.

If you do think it was a scum slip, why do you think it was?

[EspressoPatronum]

This implies there's more than 763 that caused you to think I'm scum. What posts are they and why do you think they're scummy?

For the sake of answering this question I will ignore your scummy posts after the fact.

783 doesn't gel with me as it seems you're trying to prematurely claim.

It doesn't SEEM like I'm trying to claim. I'm making very obvious I'm ready to claim if people want me to.

Even if you were right, how does a premature claim mean I'm scummy?

764 feels like a reaction instead of a case.

Because it

is

a reaction, not a case. Why is that scummy?

748 is trying to self-meta.

Mena already said I'm meta-aware, and that's coming from games in which I was town. What about me self-metaing is scummy?

[EspressoPatronum]

@TL - This is the flimsiest case against me I've ever seen. It'd be more believable if you just quoted Mena's case on me.

[EspressoPatronum]

Ok I'm signing off for a bit.

TL is obvscum.

It should go without saying that anyone who lolhammers me is claiming scum.... but I've been lolhammered before, so I had to say it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Ok wait nvm, TL gave more evasive answers. Can't sign off yet.

[EspressoPatronum]

I think by "despite 695 obviously not being a scumslip" you should know that I don't think that was a scumslip because it's uh heavily implied.

So if you agree with my reasoning on it not being a scumslip, why are you attacking me by saying my reasoning was fake? You believe the same thing.

Premature claims can be seen as scum if you're trying to get others to claim especially. Otherwise it's a pretty bad move regardless of alignment.

But I'm not trying to get others to claim. What about my attempt at premature claiming is scummy? Would you agree that it's possible it was just a bad move and not actually scummy?

The reaction seems a bit weak and I wouldn't consider it towny.

How so? Enough with the vague answers - be specific, please. Why was it 'a bit weak'?

self-meta isn't towny, so it's NAI-scum at worst.

But I've already told you (and so has Mena) that I self-meta at times as town, so this must be NAI for me. You're welcome to do your own digging - go ahead and check our my Ruby Mafia game. Pay special attention to D2 and D3, in addition to the neighbourhood thread.
Btw, if you agree that this is NAI, your scum case on me is even weaker.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey Elbirn, are you online?

[EspressoPatronum]

I want anyone who thinks EP has done things that are pro-town this game to stand up and tell me what they are now. If they can't do that, I want them to tell me what makes the person they want to lynch today scummier than him. And if they can't do either of those two things then I want their vote on EP.

I want you to tell me how TL is townier than me.

Then I want you to vote TL.

[EspressoPatronum]

I want you to tell me how TL is townier than me.

Then I want you to vote TL.

okay I'm just gonna say this post is actually pretty scummy.

You're pushing my lynch even if I'm town, which only makes sense for town if it is a policy lynch or I'm scum even if I'm town.

I am Mena's top scumread. If he can't show me why you're townier than me, that makes YOU his top scumread.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey Elbirn, are you online?

Sort of?

What's your read on TL?

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey Elbirn, are you online?

Sort of?

What's your read on TL?

Stupidity is usually town unfortunately
And I think it was determined earlier that TL is playing to his towngame, way back when I unvoted him

Hey Elbirn, are you online?

Sort of?

What's your read on TL?

Stupidity is usually town unfortunately
And I think it was determined earlier that TL is playing to his towngame, way back when I unvoted him

Yeah read the first 10 posts in my ISO and I arrived at a "this man is from the moon" conclusion

Thanks for this. I'm signing off now, but I'll take a look at his ISO later with this in mind.

Might also be better if I think on it for a night and look at his ISO with fresh eyes.

Until then, he's obvscum imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

Can you at least tell me why you think EP vs Mena is t/s because I am probably biased from my neighborhood but I don't understand how mena can be scum based on their interactions. If you're talking about his wagon hopping he told me in our PT he was only going to vote Elbirn for a bit to help me pressure him. And honestly I'm kind of upset he jumped ship so fast but I don't really blame him or see it as a scummy move.

yeah, I'm sorry about that, I still think elbirn could be scum maybe

EP's instant identification of what the scumslip was out of like 20 posts makes me think elbirn could have realised the slip afterwards and talked about it in the PT -- like how do you notice something as being a scumslip immediately but then claim that you don't see what makes it scummy?

There's a difference between identifying a post that someone thinks might be a slip + deciding if that post is in fact a slip. I have done the former, but disagree on the latter.

You're conflating the two and basing some of your scum!EP case on my ability to read the thread and process posts contextually.

[EspressoPatronum]

Should I be claiming here?

ffs. Can you just put some effort into the game instead of jumping straight into a claim when you haven't given people a reason to like you

Point taken.

Ok here's what I've got. I admittedly haven't been as obvtown as I normally am, but if you look at my ISO, you'll see natural progressions on reads + a good faith effort to sort the Korina fiasco.

If you look at TL, on the other hand, you see inconsistent reasons for voting Korina. At one point he votes for jjh saying a flub=/= scum claim, but then he later says the flub makes Korina look like he was flailing.

Then when you add in the fact that TL just hopped on my bandwagon and has deflected my most recent question, you have yourself a strong case on TL trying to set up mislynches.

VOTE: TL

where are these natural progressions? show me the posts. show me the progressions.

where is the good faith attempt to sort Korina? I see you ask him four questions that he answers, not do anything with those answers, and then vote him.

Read my ISO and see for yourself.

Can you honestly say that my vote on Korina looks less genuine than TL? You're lying to yourself if you do.

[EspressoPatronum]

Should I be claiming here? It's a bit hard to gauge how serious the push is.

@eth0s you're going to be vital in me proving my claim btw. You probably know why.

literally, have I done anything to make you think this is not a serious push?

Just because it's serious to you doesn't mean it's serious to everyone else.

[EspressoPatronum]

HAHAHA I just realized we are missing an entire slot. And I'm not even talking about Mastina. Go check the first post. jesus fucking christ

Yeah, that would be why momo is a townread.

Gamma didn't notice that momo was absent. If momo was scum, then his scumbuddies would've told the mod about his absence, asking for him to be replaced. Gamma not having done so is evidence that momo is probably lacking said scumbuddies.

Not gonna lie I checked the player list when ethos posted 602 and I still had no idea what he was talking about momo is so ghost

I guess I'll take a free conf-town in exchange for whatever the hell korina did today

My interpretation of this post:

He's saying that everyone not realizing momo is afk means she's likely not scum. If she were scum, the mod (Gamma) would have been notified by momo's scum buddies.

I believe ppl who think it's a scumslip are misinterpreting what he means by "free conf-town." They're likely thinking he means a free lynch on conf!town Korina, but if you read the whole post, you'll see that the implication of his post is that he's happy momo is now conf!town.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena

Spoiler: EP's Korina progression

I agree that Korina was acting a bit weird at the beginning, but I don't like eth0s' vote there.

I did some digging on potential options for a pride flag flavour claim

+ don't like some of the possibilities for Korina's role.

That’s an odd thing to say. How exactly would you even do research? How do you think your research could be in any way reliable?

I searched 'negative utility' roles in the Mafiascum wiki. The wiki lists all roles and their general impact on town, so I'm pretty happy with its reliability.

At this point, I was fairly sure he was softing Princess or Flagbearer. He confirmed Flagbearer shortly after I posted this.

@Korina, you have a negative utility role that doesn't activate its negative utility until after today. In addition, there's a chance (be it small or large, it doesn't really matter) that you're just scum lying.

On the latter point, your posting, activity, and tone here are within the scum range you demonstrated in your Newbie game with Mena.

In my eyes,

the only reason not to lynch you today is to maintain your neighbourhood power

. It's definitely a great power, but

I'm not yet sure if it's worth keeping over the risk your role poses to the town.

Here's some specific comments/questions re your power, but feel free to add anything else that comes to mind:
1. I'm not sure I fully appreciate the strength of your power for town. It's great that we get personalized neighbourhoods, but is that it?
2. I recall you mentioning something about a modifier or something... can you remind me?
3. I can't shake the concern of scum!you having access to the PTs.
4. How do we best utilize the PTs?

If you look at the core of my concern, it's that EVEN if I completely accept town!Korina, he's still a worthwhile lynch if his Flagbearer role doesn't activate D1. To clarify, I was happy with the lynch

regardless of his alignment

, as I saw the cost outweighing the benefit.
With that in mind, the only answer that mattered for my vote was Korina's answer to #1. His answer didn't convince me that the neighbourhood power was a better benefit than the cost of the Flagbearer power.

To pile onto that, we still had no way of knowing if he was town or scum.

I haven't looked at the VC, so consider my vote on Korina once I double check tomorrow. He was pretty committed to the negative utility of his role + the backpedaling is a big red flag for me.

I'd also like to hear from a few others before we push the lynch through.

It looked even worse for him after he retracted the Flagbearer claim. I saw (and still see) no reason for town to lie about having such a terrible role. I figured he was either scum lying, or he I'm fact had the Flagbearer role + was trying to avoid getting lynched. Neither was worth keeping.

VOTE: Korina

L-1

And then I finalized my stance.

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And I don't understand why you are questioning whether the push is serious or not when you were just wanting to claim your role after a few votes

I recently got hammered by accident, so I'm a little paranoid about getting too close to L-1.

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I guess you didn't read my explanation at all

You're right. I didn't see it.

I don't understand how not knowing momo was in the game could be considered a slip

No. It's like you knew that Korina was going to flip town. If you had any reason to think Korina might not flip red then why would you think that getting a "conftown" was a good trade off for Korina's death?

Ah, so the slip is a TMI. I'm going to check something in Elbirn's ISO:

If he implied he was comfortable lynching Korina regardless of Korina's alignment, then I don't think this can be a slip. If he implied he was only comfortable lynching Korina if Korina was scum, then this could actually be a slip.

Also the reasoning by Mastina for momo being conftown is laughable and especially ironic when coming from Mastina who was able to post nothing for 75+ hours and never prodded (at least to the rest of the game's knowledge).

So to a lesser degree it also feels like you took that "conftown" at face value much more than any town should.

Yeah, perhaps conf!town is a bit strong... I agree that it makes Momo/Chemist more likely to be town though.

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Re my above post:

The only sensible way that kind of shit would work is hurting everyone after dying

Meanwhile Korina is somehow trying to push through that claiming part of a scum role makes him conftown

So flagbearer korina dying should hit everyone for 1 point of damage, I can agree with that. I don't see how that makes him scum. He never claimed anything contradictory, just said that he has no knowledge of how his flagbearer role works because its "modified", and I get that's kinda sketch but....???

Alright fine, I’ll admit it then. I lied about flagbearer. I used it to try to flush out scum. It worked. jjh took the bait so hard, it’s not even funny.

What is Korina at, votewise?

It's actually hard to tell if Elbirn was going to hammer + what the intentions would have been.

I'm not sure if this helps answer the scum slip question.

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Hey eth0s, can you link the games you've played with TL?

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@eth0s I haven't played much with Elements, but I recall him coasting a fair bit as town in Pokemon Ruby Mafia. Will have to double check that later.

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@TD since you want to go back to the scumslip discussion, can you start by saying whether you think it's a real slip or not?

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Hey eth0s, can you link the games you've played with TL?

Sure. I replaced in. Only game I've played with him to my knowledge.

Thanks, I appreciate!

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So yeah, on the PT shit:

Spoiler:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all

Wow, this is an amazing use of the PT! It's a pity DEB died before you guys could actually use it.

TD and I didn't use our PT very well, it seems.

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mfw I don’t even get a PT

RIP.

Fwiw we don't have them anymore.

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@Mena your gamestate analysis to prove scum!EP is a fantastic example of confirmation bias. Assuming town!Mena, I'd like you to reread that post when I flip town + remember the dangers of tunneling. If you're scum, carry on doing your thing.

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@Mena your gamestate analysis to prove scum!EP is a fantastic example of confirmation bias. Assuming town!Mena, I'd like you to reread that post when I flip town + remember the dangers of tunneling. If you're scum, carry on doing your thing.

this only proves Menalque's point...

How so?

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VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

I'll admit that I didn't read Mena's case in it's entirety before now, as I assumed most of it would be drawing on a jjh/EP pairing to prove the case (which I know is false). The case actually brings up good points about jjh + it stands on its own without the scum!EP assumption.

I remember reading jjh's insistence on scum!Korina at twilight + thinking that was a bit weird, but I forgot about it shortly after.

VOTE: jjh

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That's L-2 btw.

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So yeah, on the PT shit:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all[/spoiler]

Wow, this is an amazing use of the PT! It's a pity DEB died before you guys could actually use it.

TD and I didn't use our PT very well, it seems.

VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

I'll admit that I didn't read Mena's case in it's entirety before now, as I assumed most of it would be drawing on a jjh/EP pairing to prove the case (which I know is false). The case actually brings up good points about jjh + it stands on its own without the scum!EP assumption.

I remember reading jjh's insistence on scum!Korina at twilight + thinking that was a bit weird, but I forgot about it shortly after.

VOTE: jjh

How does EP make both of these posts

Because I believe both of them.

My complementing you for the PT does not preclude me from being able to agree with a scum case on you.

Honestly, Chemist, I think EP's vote is the most suspect

He was against the case, then 2 more people vote, then suddenly he sees merit to it

I don't recall being against the case. Can you quote the post(s) in which I say that?

I think it's also kinda weird that he didn't vote TL after my case or engage with said case in any way

My vote was already on TL at that point.

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Doesn't the PT thing effectively invalidate the case

How so? Scum!jjh can still set up a code to talk with DEB and decide to kill DEB later.

Regardless of your alignment, you guys used the PT very well. TD and I made a few posts at the beginning but let it die shortly after.

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Scum me probably fakes a guilty and gives it to deb to claim, then nightkills him.

Didn't you tell Korina that you never engage with scum meta arguments?

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Scum me probably fakes a guilty and gives it to deb to claim, then nightkills him.

Didn't you tell Korina that you never engage with scum meta arguments?

Ok, jjh, literally use your fucking brain for a moment. Let's say I'm scum here, alright? My role is exactly what I claimed, but I know exactly what my flagbearing conditions are. Let's also say that it's standard flagbearer, where all members of my faction die.
I have two options for what I can do:
- Not claim flagbearer, hope for the best.
- Claim flagbearer, but attach something so convoluted and hope people believe it.

Which one is easier for scum!me to do? It's not claiming flagbearer.
Even if I have a modified ability where not all members of my faction will die, not claiming flagbearer is much easier to go with.

So please, explain why the fuck I claim flagbearer as scum, unless you believe I'm a third party flagbearer claiming town.

No

I don't do "Why do I do this as scum" arguments because they're trash

Hmmm

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That's not self meta

You're asking me why scum!you kills DEB.

That's exactly a "why do I do this as scum" argument.

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Asking "Why do I do this as scum" is all about covering up awful play with increasing amounts of bollocks about how awful your towngame is

I would say these two sentences are very much "why do I do this as scum?"

"Why would I claim flagbearer as scum?"
"Why would I kill DEB as scum?"

Am I wrong in saying that you're arguing the former is bad but the latter is not?

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What particular points in Menalque's scumcase on me do you find convincing?

His strongest point is your behaviour in twilight re Korina being scum. I see the point on framing the discussion as his next best argument.

@jjh can you link me some of your scum and town games?

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Asking "Why do I do this as scum" is all about covering up awful play with increasing amounts of bollocks about how awful your towngame is

I would say these two sentences are very much "why do I do this as scum?"

"Why would I claim flagbearer as scum?"
"Why would I kill DEB as scum?"

Am I wrong in saying that you're arguing the former is bad but the latter is not?

Given that the first we know comes from town, does that factor into your read on the second?

No, it doesn't. My purpose in highlighting the similarity is to show an inconsistency. See 1063

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The traditional "Why do I do this as scum" is uttered when someone has pointed out something incomprehensibly scummy that you just did and you're just like "Nah I wouldn't do this as scum because it's obviously incomprehensibly scummy"

Ah, I didn't realize it's an actual mafia game term.

I'll reconsider the statements in light of this.

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Just reading the scum thread in that game would probably do it tbh

UNVOTE:
I skimmed the vengeful ghosts game + looked at the activity overview in the games mastina linked. You're not playing the same here as in vengeful ghosts + it looks like your activity is AI.

On activity -- you're among the top 3 posters in almost all your town games, but you're roughly in the middle/bottom third on your scum games. Your activity this game suggests you're town.

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The traditional "Why do I do this as scum" is uttered when someone has pointed out something incomprehensibly scummy that you just did and you're just like "Nah I wouldn't do this as scum because it's obviously incomprehensibly scummy"

Ah, I didn't realize it's an actual mafia game term.

I'll reconsider the statements in light of this.

Do you still think it's an inconsistency or do I need to continue explaining the different circumstances?

It's not really an actual game term but I'm mostly pissed off about the phenomenon I have described because of the number of games I have played with boon/fl as of late

@jjh

In a general interpretation of the phrase "why would I do this as scum" (WWIDTAS), the statements are similar and would suggest an inconsistency.

Using the definition you provided, however, which looks at the context and reasons for saying WWIDTAS, the statements appear consistent. I'd suggest that while you said you didn't like WWIDTAS, you actually didn't like the reasons behind Korina using WWIDTAS. If that's correct, you're essentially using WWIDTAS as a shorthand that encompasses your dislike of their play, the reasons for said play, and the circumstances leading up to the WWIDTAS.... but that's just semantics.

Verdict:
Since you presumably made the ant-WWIDTAS using your own interpretation of WWIDTAS, I can see why you would argue Korina's WWIDTAS was bad while yours was good.

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Just reading the scum thread in that game would probably do it tbh

UNVOTE:
I skimmed the vengeful ghosts game + looked at the activity overview in the games mastina linked. You're not playing the same here as in vengeful ghosts + it looks like your activity is AI.

On activity -- you're among the top 3 posters in almost all your town games, but you're roughly in the middle/bottom third on your scum games. Your activity this game suggests you're town.

Sorry I realize this wasn't why you shared those links

But I think its funny that you brought up Mastina's meta breakdown in that game when, upon reading it, I found that you were scum and mastina was trying to use your meta to support her belief that you were town even though you were guiltied scum

Do you think his meta points to town!jjh or scum!jjh here?

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Oh God the youngins are making up new buzzwords

Make it stop

WWIDTAS? I just got tired of typing it out every time

[EspressoPatronum]

Do you think his meta points to town!jjh or scum!jjh here?

I guess my sarcastic quoting wasn't clear

I think meta is diarreah donkey doo doo and if you use it you're a stupidhead

See also: Town-Mastina insisting Scum-JJH was town based on meta

Meh, you do you. I think meta can be a valuable part of the discussion.

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Great game, all.

Thanks for subbing in for me, suji. I loved the toast/vig crumbs you left . And nice shot on eth0s at the end.

@mena, you were right about my meta being off. My schedule got too busy and I had to step back from mafia until things balanced out again.

@Gamma, I loved the theme btw!

[EspressoPatronum]

I submitted:

1. Scuba suit;
2. A toaster that only toasts one side of your bread; and
3. The backspace key on a keyboard.