pienyan's Large Normal Review, August 2019

[implosion]

Setup info is in this PT https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=80519
Opening posts are the same as here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=73635
Let me know if you have any questions, thank you =)

18p - 14 vs 4

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia 2-shot Commuter
Mafia Bulletproof

Town 1-shot Loyal Neighborizer
Town Odd Night Vigilante
Town Roleblocker
Town Jailkeeper
VTx10

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Your partners are X,

Mafia Goon

, Y,

Mafia Bulletproof

, and Z,

Mafia 2-shot Commuter

.

You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. The player performing the kill may not perform any other actions that night phase. You also share a factional PT, located here, which you may talk in anytime.

You win when your faction composes 50% of the living players at day start or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Bulletproof

.

Your partners are X,

Mafia Goon

, Y,

Mafia Goon

, and Z,

Mafia 2-shot Commuter

.

You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. The player performing the kill may not perform any other actions that night phase. You also share a factional PT, located here, which you may talk in anytime.

You are protected from all killing actions.

You win when your faction composes 50% of the living players at day start or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia 2-shot Commuter

.

Your partners are X,

Mafia Goon

, Y,

Mafia Goon

, and Z,

Mafia Bulletproof

.

You share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. The player performing the kill may not perform any other actions that night phase. You also share a factional PT, located here, which you may talk in anytime.

You may elect to commute each night. If successful, all night actions targeting you will fail. You may only perform this action twice.

You win when your faction composes 50% of the living players at day start or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Town 1-shot Loyal Neighborizer

.

You may target one player per night phase. If successful, you will become neighbors with this player and receive a neighbor PT which you may talk in at any time. This action will fail if your target is not aligned with the

Town

. You may only perform this action once.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Town Odd Night Vigilante

.

On odd numbered nights, you may target one player. If successful, this player will die.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is here.

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

You may target one player per night phase. If successful, this player will be protected from all killing actions, but any night actions they perform will fail.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is here.

MOD NOTE: in case of conflict with the Roleblocker, the Roleblocker wins. Let me know if that needs to be changed?

-----------------------------------------

Welcome!

You are a

Town Roleblocker

.

You may target one player per night phase. If successful, any night actions they perform will fail.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread is here.

MOD NOTE: in case of conflict with the Jailkeeper, the Roleblocker wins. Let me know if that needs to be changed?

[implosion]

Primary: schadd_
Secondary: Something_Smart

[Something_Smart]

Doesn't strike me as enough power to balance 14:4. Mafia bulletproof is kinda rude, too.

[pienyan]

Hi there. I'm not really sure about the balance on this, I can remove a mafia PR or even both of them if needed.

[schadd_]

id say this needs like 1/2 a town power role. neither of the scum PRs are a huge deal, both of them really only interact with vig and the vig isn't a huge gamechanger here to begin with. i'd like to change a VT to a backup roleblocker for instance

[Something_Smart]

JK/RB/backup RB means that town power will go from zero to ridiculous as soon as there's one scum left; I don't think town has enough power to recover if they start off on the wrong foot and a backup RB wouldn't help that.

[pienyan]

Any thoughts if I swap both the mafia PRs with a mafia doctor and then add another town PR?

I sort of wanted to go for something that wasn't a scumdoc when I made this cuz I felt like doing something different (I like scumdoc in games vs vig) but I think in the end I still prefer scum having the choice of who is immune vs it being hard-coded into the setup lol.

[Something_Smart]

Why does anyone need to be immune?

[pienyan]

No one does (like I said I could simply just remove both PRs) but it gives scum at least one other choice to make besides the kill and makes the game a bit less "keep praying" for them.

[Something_Smart]

By the second part, you mean that it makes it so they can do more than just hope the vig doesn't shoot them?

[pienyan]

By the second part, you mean that it makes it so they can do more than just hope the vig doesn't shoot them?

Yup, pretty much. I'd rather them have some counterplay to it.

[Something_Smart]

I mean... they can try to kill the vig...

Scum doctor is kinda mean because it punishes the vig for making good shots. Doesn't mean there's no design space for it; it's just that, especially against a gated vig like this, I'd favor an investigative option like watcher or gunsmith.

[Something_Smart]

On an unrelated note, schadd and I are in agreement that town needs more power, and I at least feel it should be something useful earlygame. Bumping the neighborizer up to two shots could satisfy that, or you could add a middling PR if you wanted.

[Something_Smart]

Also, one thing that just occurred to me is that there's a not terrible (~1/9) chance of the neighborizer getting roleblocked when they use their shot, which is devastating to town. Making the neighborizer ascetic would weirdly enough probably be a buff here

[pienyan]

I mean... they can try to kill the vig...

Scum doctor is kinda mean because it punishes the vig for making good shots. Doesn't mean there's no design space for it; it's just that, especially against a gated vig like this, I'd favor an investigative option like watcher or gunsmith.

I strongly disagree with you here. With a scum doc, the vig is gated, but 1) with smart play once it's known there's a scum doc the vig can try to play around it, 2) the scum doc has direct utility to the scum team and allows them to make choices that let them survive better. Whereas with a watcher 1) once the watcher and vig interact the vig is simply just fucked which I find way more unfair than what happens with a scumdoc, 2) it only even kicks in once the scum team is down a member, and that's just sort of stupid and not really fun to play.

A weaker investigative would probably be fine, especially with us needing to cut town power. Maybe a rolecop?

Your point about the neighborizer being blocked is very true lol. Do you think making it 2-shot would work?

I'm not sure what other PR to add for town, I need to think a bit on it.

[pienyan]

*increase town power. -_-

[Something_Smart]

once it's known there's a scum doc the vig can try to play around it

I don't think the vig can reasonably figure it out, though. There are a lot of reasons a kill would fail; in this setup alone, there are four different ways, only one of which is to a scum doc.

What about informing the vig that there's a scum doc? That might be okay because a missed kill on someone scummy is a semi-guilty.

[Something_Smart]

Scum rolecop is probably better for scum than scum watcher and is going to make the roleblocker almost certainly useless.

If you want to counter the vig specifically scum gunsmith wouldn't be bad, but this informed vig vs scum doctor thing would obviate the need for a second vig counter.

[Something_Smart]

Do you have any objection to making the neighborizer ascetic? I personally feel it would be an improvement. Making it 2-shot would boost town power but wouldn't really solve the blocking issue.

[schadd_]

i also thought about informed vig but then it's kind of awkward since a natural choice there is for scum doc to real-claim when it comes to it, and in that case the informed vig just goes "Aha!" which is no fun

[schadd_]

i think id call this balanced enough with the only change being loyal neigborizer -> ascetic 2 shot or even night or something. the scum PRs aren't a huge factor to me. if nothing else i think mafia bulletproof raises an interesting question as to whether or not you wanna claim that

[pienyan]

What about informing the vig that there's a scum doc? That might be okay because a missed kill on someone scummy is a semi-guilty.

No ty. Playing around with pseudo guilties like that is not something I want to deal with any more than I have to, which as you pointed out is going to be an issue with the neighborizer in this setup already.

My only real objection to making it ascetic is it's sort of just inelegant to try and fix it by staking yet another modifier on top of it. I think making it 2-shot fixes the blocking issue because if the first one fails they've got just as well of a chance to hit the second one.

[schadd_]

i see the inelegant argument, fwiw people do roles with several modifiers in normals all the time, especially in a large it wouldnt be out of place

totally fine if you want to just add a different PR

[schadd_]

how about even-night doctor for instance

[pienyan]

That'd be fine. I think I like the idea of giving mafia an investigative; so would this be OK, or do you think it's too scum sided still?

Mafia Bulletproof
Mafia Rolecop
Mafia Goon x2

Town 1-shot Loyal Neighborizer
Town JK
Town RB
Town Even Night Doctor
Town Odd Night Vigilante