Newbie 1953 | Zooborns IV | Game Over

[Dyrenz]

Hello all, 2nd game here since rejoining the site. Played once a few years back and didn't quite enjoy it back then. Glad to be back now though, thoroughly enjoyed my first game and excited to play more.

VOTE: Jamelia for also being too quiet

[Dyrenz]

Lazy entrance I know (>-_-)>

Didn't want to add to the Chemist train so early despite getting a scum vibe from him. L-1 can be dangerous this early on if someone just hammers on a whim. Not really used to how to open in RVS, also not sure I even like RVS, but I threw down a vote for the sheer sake of doing so.

[Dyrenz]

Also
UNVOTE:

Because it seems pointless atm

[Dyrenz]

I frequently post from work so if my attention span seems rather intermittent, that is why.

Chemist's reactions to the early votes on Leucosticte are exactly why I was hesitant to RVS and why I unvoted right after. Makes you look scummy

[Dyrenz]

welp since the other SEs are doing it I might as well

don’t listen to peer pressure, or you’ll end up like me

VOTE: leucodticte

ik there’s a typo but my phone won’t let me fix it

This just seemed kinda scummy. You defend it as RVS but the whole joke about peer pressure seemed like a sarcastic self-defense of your vote. Micc started the vote with the whole "hard to type" joke, Skitter jumps on board without much of a word (may need to look more at him) and you jump on joking about bandwagoning which is a tongue-in-cheek way of actually trying to saying "Haha don't wagon because of peer pressure" while you literally try to wagon due to peer pressure.

[Dyrenz]

welp since the other SEs are doing it I might as well

don’t listen to peer pressure, or you’ll end up like me

VOTE: leucodticte

ik there’s a typo but my phone won’t let me fix it

This just seemed kinda scummy. You defend it as RVS but the whole joke about peer pressure seemed like a sarcastic self-defense of your vote. Micc started the vote with the whole "hard to type" joke, Skitter jumps on board without much of a word (may need to look more at him) and you jump on joking about bandwagoning which is a tongue-in-cheek way of actually trying to saying "Haha don't wagon because of peer pressure" while you literally try to wagon due to peer pressure.

[Dyrenz]

Oh god I double clicked, sorry!

[Dyrenz]

I see what you mean there, the irony is not lost on me

[Dyrenz]

So Skitter jumped on Micc's vote, then immediately turned and started shaming Chemist for jumping on as well.

A few scenarios in my mind

A) Skitter is town, drawing out a potential wagon push from scum. Chemist is scum, taking Skitter's bait.
B) Skitter is scum, baiting out an unsuspecting townie whom he can then try to push a mislynch on. Chemist is town and takes the bait.
C) Both are town and someone else is pushing the mislynch as a red herring

[Dyrenz]

Do you have anything specific to ask me about that?
Have you read my earlier defenses?

Yes, and that is why I haven't voted for you

[Dyrenz]

My first post was literally just me explaining how my real life can interfere with my availability. Yes, I jumped on Chemist and then slowly backed off. Was testing the waters to see if anyone else would jump in but I suspect that scum were smart enough to see the bait. (Or they were already voting for him)

I don't have enough evidence to arrive at a conclusion yet. We're on basically Day 1 or at least the first full day of play. I'm not going to blindly pick one of three possibilities without having enough evidence to make an informed conclusion.

Having said that, in terms of likelihood, I'm inclined to believe that C is most likely. It's still early in the day and I think we need to get more discussion in before we can get good enough reads.

[Dyrenz]

My first post was literally just me explaining how my real life can interfere with my availability. Yes, I jumped on Chemist and then slowly backed off. Was testing the waters to see if anyone else would jump in but I suspect that scum were smart enough to see the bait. (Or they were already voting for him)

Literally the line after that is you talking about why you didn't do something because you thought it would look scummy...
But anyway, lets say that hypothetically Player A did jump on the chemist's wagon and put him to L-1, or Player A falls for the bait as you described it. Why do you think that is scum indicative?

I don't have enough evidence to arrive at a conclusion yet. We're on basically Day 1 or at least the first full day of play. I'm not going to blindly pick one of three possibilities without having enough evidence to make an informed conclusion.

Having said that, in terms of likelihood, I'm inclined to believe that C is most likely. It's still early in the day and I think we need to get more discussion in before we can get good enough reads.

I understand you want more information and thus more discussion, but consider this:

How has you presenting three possible explanations for what you observed and expanding no further added discussion to the game? Isn't that the equivalent of me telling you that the solution to 2 + 2 is either less than 0, equal to 0, or greater than 0. Sure, what I said is true, but it didn't really help answer the problem.

Is it possible that you contributing your opinion about something adds discussion to the game, even if your opinion turns out to be wrong?

You raise fair points, and in my defense all I have to offer is my own inexperience and relatively cautious approach to hunting. I feel like my playstyle just rubs you the wrong way and that is why the push. At this point I feel confident Chemist and Skitter are in the clear and I'm a little irked by how insistent Jamelia is being on the Chemist vote. We're trying to look at all possibilities and he is glued firmly on Chemist.

[Dyrenz]

In addition to that, I think Leucosticte is just posting fluff and should provide their reads so far.

Here are mine thus far:

Town - Mr. Oobsy, Norwegian
Null - Micc, Skitter, Farren, Chemist
Scummy - Jamelia, Leucosticte

[Dyrenz]

Why?

[Dyrenz]

Town - Mr. Oobsy, Norwegian
Null - Micc, Skitter, Farren, Chemist

Can you further explain your reads on Micc and Norwegian?

After re-reading Norwegian's ISO, I think it a light town read at best. My best reasoning being that his play style seems similar to mine (cautious, somewhat passive) and I just responded positively to that. Of course, now I'm thinking my slow and steady play style isn't always the most efficient way to hunt scum. Might drop him to a null read though, as his posting is more reactive than inquisitive.

For my Micc read, Leucosticte pretty much summed up how I feel in his own post. Micc is very opinionated, aggressive even, and could be a VT with nothing to lose or a mafia looking to play town leader. He's very much the opposite of me and I think that is why he is gunning so hard for me because he sees play like mine to automatically be indicative of scum because it is in such opposition to his own.

[Dyrenz]

Aside from gunning for Chemist early on, I haven't seen a whole lot of constructive analysis coming out of Norwegian, so that's why I say that

[Dyrenz]

Oobsy, explain why we should no lynch?

The very act of lynching is in itself a form of scumhunting when we can look at who voted, who pushed, when they pushed, why they pushed, etc. Even in the case a mislynch we can garner valuable information about those involved in the process.

[Dyrenz]

We're definitely beyond random voting at this stage. Votes made, at least some of them anyway, are calculated and based on intuition/hunches.

Farren has, at least twice now, piggybacked Micc's reads specifically regarding me.

Jamelia reminds me of someone from my last game who flipped scum, so while I might be reading her as slightly scummy, I'm worried it's just reminding me of my last game.

[Dyrenz]

SORRY!

Him*

[Dyrenz]

Alright, it would appear that overall expectations for level of analysis and contribution are much higher from my first game. Our towniest player wrote in 1-2 sentence posts and said I was their highest town read. I've been in the middle ground of effort, which apparently is worse(?) than being low effort. It seems to be giving off the idea that I am pretending to contribute while not giving enough substantive information to back up the reads offered. Allow me to correct my own laziness then.

NorwegianboyEE

- Initial opening onto Chemist, gives and defends reasons for voting. Plays similarly to myself with a cautious, evidence-based voting style. Tries his best to offer analytics, but again like myself is not too good at catching the subtler tells. Mentions my playstyle reminds them of themselves as scum. Has kept vote on Chemist from the beginning, mostly due to having no other convincing voting options in his opinion. Probably town, but the comment on how their scum game reminds them of how I play makes me wonder. -

Null

/

Scum

Micc

- Clearly very experienced SE, offers detailed insight into his aggressive and inquisitive playstyle. Lower end of postcount, but overall every post has substance and pushes his agenda. Seems dead set at this point on lynching me and frankly I'm not entirely certain as to why. I'm playing roughly the same as my last game, albeit with more confidence after my first successful town win, and I was a high town read by almost all players. Probably just difference in playstyle I'm guessing. Micc looks to be trying to lead town which at his experience level is very good for us if he is town but very very bad if he is scum. Null read for now, but to say I don't like him is probably just OMGUS. -

Null

Farren

- He is asking a lot of questions, but not providing much analysis. His given reason for voting me is pretty weak in my opinion, basically is saying "your read is wrong IMO, you're scum!". Reading over his ISO again, might actually be my scummiest read. -

Scum

Jamelia

- Lowest contribution to the town so far. Playing the "wait and see" game without doing much else. Last post stated he would be providing a full analysis on reads soon, so I'll be waiting on that. Overall I don't have a whole lot to go on so I am looking forward to reading his reads. -

Null

Mr Oobsy

- Love the usage of colored fonts and bolded names, makes his posts easy to read through. I really don't like the No Lynch vote, but that could have been a play to get reactions from different people. I really dig his attitude overall. Actively applies pressure with voting instead of sitting on an empty vote. Probably my highest town read. -

Town

Leucosticte

- Experienced in the game but a newbie to the Mafiascum meta. Probably just adjusting to how the meta goes here, but he makes the mistake of trying to make PR reads, potentially endangering important town roles on our first day. Does it again later on as well. Comically, he even put himself in his reads, talking highly of himself. Probably town, just figuring out the forum meta like the rest of us newbies. -

Town

Chemist

- Looking back on it, probably used initial RVS to bait an unwary scum voter. Posts might be short, but they offer substance. Wish he'd offer more opinions on things, but he did mention most of what he's got revolves around PRs and he doesn't want to risk getting people NK'd so maybe he is just playing it safe. -

Town

Skitter

- Highest postcount, albeit many are a short one-liner. Nonetheless, posts have substance and she is actively trying to find scum. Very sorry if I got her pronoun wrong earlier. Scumleans are Norwegian and Farren, which are actually my two most favorable scumleans as well. -

Town

Also, a meta question. Are analytical reads as important as I am making them out to be? The SEs are all, from what I can tell, more focused on narrower lines of inquistion instead of broad analysis.

Lastly

VOTE: Farren

[Dyrenz]

Chemist - Looking back on it, probably used initial RVS to bait an unwary scum voter. Posts might be short, but they offer substance. Wish he'd offer more opinions on things, but he did mention most of what he's got revolves around PRs and he doesn't want to risk getting people NK'd so maybe he is just playing it safe. - Town

I dont get it

Why is this a townread?

Just a feeling I guess, based on my last game

[Dyrenz]

No, just reminds me of another player who was obvtown

[Dyrenz]

Alright, it would appear that overall expectations for level of analysis and contribution are much higher from my first game. Our towniest player wrote in 1-2 sentence posts and said I was their highest town read. I've been in the middle ground of effort, which apparently is worse(?) than being low effort. It seems to be giving off the idea that I am pretending to contribute while not giving enough substantive information to back up the reads offered. Allow me to correct my own laziness then.

Do you believe that you were, up to this point, not providing sufficient analysis?

I thought I was, but it didn't seem sufficient enough to please Micc so I thought I would up the amount of time spent on writing out an analysis.

[Dyrenz]

NorwegianboyEE

- Initial opening onto Chemist, gives and defends reasons for voting. Plays similarly to myself with a cautious, evidence-based voting style. Tries his best to offer analytics, but again like myself is not too good at catching the subtler tells. Mentions my playstyle reminds them of themselves as scum. Has kept vote on Chemist from the beginning, mostly due to having no other convincing voting options in his opinion. Probably town, but the comment on how their scum game reminds them of how I play makes me wonder. -

Null

/

Scum

Farren

- He is asking a lot of questions, but not providing much analysis. His given reason for voting me is pretty weak in my opinion, basically is saying "your read is wrong IMO, you're scum!". Reading over his ISO again, might actually be my scummiest read. -

Scum

You have Norwegianboy and I as your only two scumreads. Does that mean you think the two of us are the scumteam?

TBH I'm just trying to make individual reads. This is my second full game ever of Mafia, I've never played on a different site, IRL, etc. I don't think I'm at the experience level needed to put together partners. Having said that, I don't think you and Norwegian would be partners if one of you is scum. If one of you is, someone else is your partner.

[Dyrenz]

I'm actually with Farren here, at worst it seems more like OMGUS

[Dyrenz]

Farren, I'm getting the feeling I might have misread you.

UNVOTE: Farren
VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[Dyrenz]

Given recent discussion, I figured my change in vote was self-explanatory.

Basically, I had a light scumlean on you already, did a re-read, coupled with your reactionary posts without doing much to push other potential leads beyond your initial vote on Chemist. Given Farren's recent posts, he's contributing more to town than you are, so I decided to change my vote.

[Dyrenz]

@Dyrenz If you believe i’m mafia, who do you think my partner would be?

Honestly I have no clue but if I had to warrant a guess I would say Jamelia.

[Dyrenz]

Dyrenz: You've changed your "scumleads" quite a bit. Going from me, wanting to vote for Chemist but "didn't want to jump on the scum train" (Post #92), then having Leuco as Scummy (Post #171) then having him in town (#221), voting for Farren and then changing your vote to Norwegian. I understand a fluid flow of external communication, but I am curious about your process of constantly changing your mind and votes especially on Day 1.

As players post, they develop a profile for themselves. Early reads can change given new evidence. I find it more suspect frankly when someone makes up their mind early and refuses to change at all. Simply put, I'm a 'read as I go' player with a constantly changing opinion on the gamestate.

[Dyrenz]

Nobody ever answered my meta question about reads vs probing ._.

[Dyrenz]

Also, a meta question. Are analytical reads as important as I am making them out to be? The SEs are all, from what I can tell, more focused on narrower lines of inquistion instead of broad analysis.

[Dyrenz]

Mr Oobsy - "Actively applies pressure with voting instead of sitting on an empty vote." frankly is just not true at all and I have no idea how he arrived at that conclusion.
Leucosticte - this is just a list of anti town things that Leucosticte has done this game with the conclusion being town.
chemist - "Looking back on it, probably used initial RVS to bait an unwary scum voter." No, and he's said as much multiple times.

Mr Oobsy

- I said this because he moved away from his No Lynch vote and placed it on Farren after getting scummy vibes from some of Farren's earlier posts. Looking back now this was probably a stretch to say and I clearly need to be more precise with my language. (Seriously, I'm this awkward IRL too, drives my wife nuts)

Leucosticte

- It's his first game and he clearly came from a meta where PRs were likely discussed more openly. I apologize for trying to be forgiving in a newbie game, didn't realize we had to be so damn cutthroat in a NEWBIE GAME. Just cutting the guy some slack in what appears to me to mostly be a harmless newb townie. ( like myself!)

Chemist

- His very initial defense of his vote it was that it was RVS. He literally said...

Why are you treating my RVS post as if it was a serious one?

From what I’m getting here you’re calling me scum because my vote that was clearly during RVS was not adequately labeled as such?

It was an RVS vote

my lack of reasoning? it was literally RVS but people for some reason weren't accepting that as a reason

is it wrong to feel like I need to be defensive when I get three votes for an RVS post?

But PLEASE do go on about how he refuted that "multiple times" when he literally said it was an RVS vote on no less than 5 occasions.

You're so intent on lynching me and your experience and general leadership style make (at least in my opinion) lesser experienced players want to follow your lead. Yet I do everything I can to contribute and help town out with reads and I do my best to apply pressure where I can and you are STILL laser-focused on lynching me.

If you ask me, I'm starting to think you know I'm town and you are just playing a really good scum game.

[Dyrenz]

*sigh*

I'm sorry. I really am. I'm being overly emotional and letting those feelings drive what I write. I get frustrated. I'm sure anyone who is still just trying to learn how to play a good town game would get frustrated when everything they try to do gets thrown back in their face as wrong or false. Makes me feel like an idiot. Maybe I'm just too thin-skinned for this game. Idk. I'm gonna try to continue to do what I can to scumhunt, but I'm getting sick of feeling like I have to constantly defend myself on every page, especially when I know I'm town and I'm trying so hard to communicate that in my actions.

So again, I apologize for being so bad at this. My first game I was really meek and careful, and I tried to be more confident in my play this game and all it has done is blow up in my face. Sorry everyone.

[Dyrenz]

Ok whatever just mislynch me then and get on with the game

[Dyrenz]

Eh, fuck it.

I'm Town Friendly Neighbor so we're obviously in B
There's a Mafia Rolecop, guaranteed.
Other PR is Tracker or Jailkeeper. Speculating this is hardly inappropriate since they're the only 2 options given my own role.

[Dyrenz]

Revealing my PR shouldnt have done any damage anyway now that I think about it. Mafia already knows we're in B because of rolecop.

[Dyrenz]

Oh believe me I feel like an asshole. Clearly still figuring out how to deal with pressure as town. Not doin' a great job.

Still thinking it's Norwegian personally

[Dyrenz]

I wasn't even L-1, god I'm such a wuss

[Dyrenz]

Seems pretty expected given my behavior. We had a wagon on scum in my first game and he pretty much just sat there and was like 'ok I guess I'm gonna die' and that just seemed to solidify the wagon on him.

[Dyrenz]

I mean, maaaaybe he could be scum took it as a free vote since it was SO easy to vote for me right then.

[Dyrenz]

Or he could be town jumping on what seemed at the time to be bad!scum

[Dyrenz]

Because I was momentarily frustrated and instead of stepping away to cool down I did something really dumb.

Micc is gonna be really mad lol.

[Dyrenz]

I should've repped out as soon as I saw Micc. Told myself I would give it a shot, maybe this time it will be different. Clearly not, he just does not approve of my play style at all. He's why I quit my first attempt at Mafia years ago. He would not let up no matter how badly I tried to help town and prove my innocence and it led to a mislynch. Don't even know how the game ended because it left me so frustrated I quit the site.

[Dyrenz]

You're STILL convinced I'm scum Leuco? Methinks you could be rolecop and you're just mad I outed you

VOTE: Leucosticte

[Dyrenz]

Guys I don't know what to do now, my only lean now is on Jamelia and that's mostly for a combination of low effort posting and continuing to push Chemist without really adding new reasons to lynch. I guess for now I'll just...

UNVOTE: Luecosticte
VOTE: Jamelia

Everyone else seems to be contributing at least somewhat. Maybe the more experienced players are gaining better insight than I am on what is truly productive and what is just text for the sake of text.

[Dyrenz]

Unless someone gets healed.

Sure if someone gets healed you gain half a day. If two people get healed you gain another half day and end up back where you started.

Interesting, you're right. But what if someone gets healed

tonight

? That would give

Town

an extra day, correct?

By the way, I do appreciate how you proved that counter-intuitive concept to me. It was exactly the sort of response I was hoping for.

I will consider today's votes as meaningless. Likewise for the discussion surrounding them.

What's the point if even playing the game then?

I retract that in light of

Dyrenz

'

Friendly Neighbor

claim.

Eh, fuck it.

I'm Town Friendly Neighbor so we're obviously in B
There's a Mafia Rolecop, guaranteed.
Other PR is Tracker or Jailkeeper. Speculating this is hardly inappropriate since they're the only 2 options given my own role.

Jeez, Day 1 PR. Good man! This should be a staple of every match. I've been so lonely as the only claim, and if anyone disagrees with our decision they are just a bunch of monkeys

By the way, if my brevity comes off as rude or disinterested, it was not my intention to snub Micc. I may look grumpy on the outside, but I assure you I am adorable on the inside. Just trying to help you understand what type of player I am.

Um...did you read my PR claim? If you are trusting me, you would know there is no doctor in this game. Nobody's getting healed. Also, claiming VT is not really a claim IMO, just a denial of PR/scum role. Anybody you wanna lynch?

[Dyrenz]

I'm ashamed to say I haven't actually seen the movie

[Dyrenz]

Because you're the scumteam?


/s



...?

[Dyrenz]

Because

Dyrenz

voted him.

I don't really like your reasoning at all here :/

[Dyrenz]

Isn't Chemist an SE though? Not newbie?

[Dyrenz]

That sounds like a reaaaaally loose correlation. I don't think you're scum Oobsy, but you're grasping at straws here

[Dyrenz]

Because you're the scumteam?


/s



...?

And what would be your read on this? Just because?

I was just referencing the fact that only you and Norwegian are still convinced Chemist's vote was scummy, and it was mostly a joke

[Dyrenz]

Sorry for not going V/LA for the long weekend. Oobsy wtf are you doing D:

I admit Norwegian was on my scumlist, but that was a bad move! Should have at least given an opportunity to defend/claim. You better hope you're right.