Newbie 1953 | Zooborns IV | Game Over

[Jamelia]

Hi! I’m sorry for my inactivity. I didn’t check if we had started last night and woke up this morning and ran to the forum haha.

I’ve never played mafia on this board before (or in this community) but I’m looking forward to it!

[Jamelia]

Hi! I’m sorry for my inactivity. I didn’t check if we had started last night and woke up this morning and ran to the forum haha.

I’ve never played mafia on this board before (or in this community) but I’m looking forward to it!

Got any thoughts on the game so far?

I’ll be completely honest I don’t understand the automatic accusations? I don’t think anyone has done anything too scummy but obviously I am still new to the MS meta.

[Jamelia]

So I read through everything and tried analyzing as much as possible. My brain actually hurts from trying to form opinion's of scuminess so, yeah. LOL

I agree with the opinion that Leucostictie is pretty neutral, but I wouldn't agree that he is auto-town or whatever. I appreciate the indepth analysis but I found at times the wording of how townspeople should act to be almost a: "I think this is the way Town in this game should play!" versus "I am town, but I wouldn't be surprised if other Town played this way".

I personally don't blame anyone for voting for someone based on inactivity, including Dyrenz' back on Page 2. He hasn't been on since I've started talking and stuff. I think that voting for someone based on inactivity when I personally haven't seen any overt scuminess makes sense?

That's all I really have right now. This is fun! LOL

[Jamelia]

I don’t necessarily think Chemist’s post was scummy, and with the bandwagon of people (way more than the majority) thinking so, I guess I’m more inclined to think he is town sided?

I keep re-reading it waiting to be like oh yeah, that was super scummy. But it wasn’t to me

[Jamelia]

Hi! I’m sorry for my inactivity. I didn’t check if we had started last night and woke up this morning and ran to the forum haha.

I’ve never played mafia on this board before (or in this community) but I’m looking forward to it!

Got any thoughts on the game so far?

I’ll be completely honest I don’t understand the automatic accusations? I don’t think anyone has done anything too scummy but obviously I am still new to the MS meta.

This is a partner-y sort of post if chemist is scun

Hmm. Next time should I just agree with what everyone else is saying? If the goal is to find out who mafia is, and we have more than the majority of the game jumping on the bandwagon, odds are Chemist shouldn’t be scum right? Like I obviously can be wrong here but if we’re going on the logic of “well other people did it then so will I”, then a lot of people have seem scummy so far.

[Jamelia]

Hmm. Next time should I just agree with what everyone else is saying? If the goal is to find out who mafia is, and we have more than the majority of the game jumping on the bandwagon, odds are Chemist shouldn’t be scum right? Like I obviously can be wrong here but if we’re going on the logic of “well other people did it then so will I”, then a lot of people have seem scummy so far.

A) i didnt say you should automatically agree with everyone else

B) the post read like you were trying to diffuse the wagon on chemist

I'm trying to diffuse the wagon on something that I didn't think was scummy to begin with. I agree that Chemist hasn't cleared anything up, which IS scummy to me. But the original post at hand was not scummy.

My opinion is that the bandwagon "yes, chemist IS scummy" immediate reaction is bizarre, especially when everyone just automatically agreed without follow up.

[Jamelia]

I’m “keeping my options open” who I think is scummy/not scummy. I’m not going to just automatically assume someone is town-sided or mafia-sided based on 1 person posting a million paragraphs about it.

Regardless I do think if we were to lynch someone, I think Chemist is the only one who truly has acted scummy, not with their original post but with their lack of reasoning afterwards and inactivity even though they’re the most talked about one so far.

[Jamelia]

Me being “inactive” I was just at work and honestly I just don’t have that much to contribute because I have no clue what to poke at. I read the rules and everything but nothing is like “oh wow, I need to ~investigate~.”

I just got home from work and I have time to write a full analysis of what people have said and literally trying to be as specific as possible.

[Jamelia]

Re-reading everything now. I'll do a full analysis in a second.

[Jamelia]

I still think

Chemist

's initial post was harmless. (This is going back to page 1). I find it more suspect that

skitter

originally voted for

Leucosticte

right after Micc did it. If you were going to do a random vote, I would assume it would be for a different person, especially since no one else had posted besides Chemist at that point. (Reading to page 5, post 124 - Micc also says this).

I think that

Norwegian's

original take (Post #66) on the first two votes being RVS while Chemist's wasn't RVS is scummy. I don't see any clear indicator between the first 3 votes on Page 1. However, Chemist's responses to him being asked about these votes (Post #78, 80) I am speculating as scummy. He isn't really answering the question. He is saying the takes are "not true" but not elaborating on why, but turns it around and makes accusations towards Norwegian.

I understand Farren's thoughts about my "This is Fun! LOL" post (94), specifically for him on post 149. I will do a better job of trying to "defend" people but rather be more analytical on what their intentions were.

Also, how can Chemist forget my name? There's literally only 9 of us. Weird LOL.
---

Questions:
Dyrenz: You've changed your "scumleads" quite a bit. Going from me, wanting to vote for Chemist but "didn't want to jump on the scum train" (Post #92), then having Leuco as Scummy (Post #171) then having him in town (#221), voting for Farren and then changing your vote to Norwegian. I understand a fluid flow of external communication, but I am curious about your process of constantly changing your mind and votes especially on Day 1.

Chemist: To me, your posts seem pretty agitated and frustrated. Are you upset from people voting from you at the beginning, or that some people (including myself, Micc and Norwegian) believe that your reasoning for a simple RVS vote wasn't communicated properly?

Oobsy: You have mentioned a few times that you would be fine with a No Lynch, but that inherently helps the mafia IF we don't hit properly. With this information and the disagreement with the other people in this game, would you still want to No Lynch? If not, who are you leaning towards and why?

Farren: On post 139, you had me down as a "slight scumlean". I'd like for you to explain then why you are more heavy on Dyrenz being voted out first over me.
--

I don't really have questions for the other players at the moment.

[Jamelia]

Dyrenz: You've changed your "scumleads" quite a bit. Going from me, wanting to vote for Chemist but "didn't want to jump on the scum train" (Post #92), then having Leuco as Scummy (Post #171) then having him in town (#221), voting for Farren and then changing your vote to Norwegian. I understand a fluid flow of external communication, but I am curious about your process of constantly changing your mind and votes especially on Day 1.

As players post, they develop a profile for themselves. Early reads can change given new evidence. I find it more suspect frankly when someone makes up their mind early and refuses to change at all. Simply put, I'm a 'read as I go' player with a constantly changing opinion on the gamestate.

Definitely understandable. But, I feel like from perception purposes, changing your vote constantly looks more harsh than questioning and potentially changing your mind on scuminess. I was told earlier (I forgot where) that me defending Chemist early on made me scummy since it "created more options", but can't the same be said for you if you're trying to create scuminess surrounding multiple people too?

[Jamelia]

Also, I am the last one to vote. If I vote, will this day end in a NL? Or does it only end when there's a majority 5?

[Jamelia]

Farren: On post 139, you had me down as a "slight scumlean". I'd like for you to explain then why you are more heavy on Dyrenz being voted out first over me.

Dyrenz's post 179 strengthened my scum read on Dyrenz. I didn't explicitly state that in 181, but I did link the post when I voted to imply it.

Is this vote based on your latest gut reaction? Or is this an overall view from everything so far?

[Jamelia]

Right now my vote is for:

VOTE: Chemist

Based off of everything I do think that voting for Chemist will reveal more than just them being mafia/town. I think their posts don't necessarily hold as much merit as other people, especially when (in my opinion) he is acting more defensive than trying to be proactive on who is scum/town-sided.

[Jamelia]

I still think

Chemist

's initial post was harmless. (This is going back to page 1). I find it more suspect that

skitter

originally voted for

Leucosticte

right after Micc did it. If you were going to do a random vote, I would assume it would be for a different person, especially since no one else had posted besides Chemist at that point. (Reading to page 5, post 124 - Micc also says this).

I think that

Norwegian's

original take (Post #66) on the first two votes being RVS while Chemist's wasn't RVS is scummy. I don't see any clear indicator between the first 3 votes on Page 1. However, Chemist's responses to him being asked about these votes (Post #78, 80) I am speculating as scummy. He isn't really answering the question. He is saying the takes are "not true" but not elaborating on why, but turns it around and makes accusations towards Norwegian.

I understand Farren's thoughts about my "This is Fun! LOL" post (94), specifically for him on post 149. I will do a better job of trying to "defend" people but rather be more analytical on what their intentions were.

Also, how can Chemist forget my name? There's literally only 9 of us. Weird LOL.
---

Questions:
Dyrenz: You've changed your "scumleads" quite a bit. Going from me, wanting to vote for Chemist but "didn't want to jump on the scum train" (Post #92), then having Leuco as Scummy (Post #171) then having him in town (#221), voting for Farren and then changing your vote to Norwegian. I understand a fluid flow of external communication, but I am curious about your process of constantly changing your mind and votes especially on Day 1.

Chemist: To me, your posts seem pretty agitated and frustrated. Are you upset from people voting from you at the beginning, or that some people (including myself, Micc and Norwegian) believe that your reasoning for a simple RVS vote wasn't communicated properly?

Oobsy: You have mentioned a few times that you would be fine with a No Lynch, but that inherently helps the mafia IF we don't hit properly. With this information and the disagreement with the other people in this game, would you still want to No Lynch? If not, who are you leaning towards and why?

Farren: On post 139, you had me down as a "slight scumlean". I'd like for you to explain then why you are more heavy on Dyrenz being voted out first over me.
--

I don't really have questions for the other players at the moment.

please do not judge my intelligence on how I talk when I'm tired

also with regards to agitation, I tend to get annoyed when I feel the reason(s) I'm getting pushed for aren't valid and given that I'm being tunneled off of the timing of an RVS vote I think it's at least a little justified

Another defensive post, but why do you think I’m judging your intelligence? I am saying based on my perception that you get easily agitated and aren’t contributing as good of content as others are. Obviously I haven’t contributed much myself, but if I’m judging based off of everyone else’s posts, yours comes off as either defensive with no explanations, or just completely unhelpful at all.

If we want to be rude.

[Jamelia]

You have Norwegianboy and I as your only two scumreads. Does that mean you think the two of us are the scumteam?

i don't like this question

What are you trying to accomplish here?

You have Norwegianboy and I as your only two scumreads. Does that mean you think the two of us are the scumteam?

i don't like this question

Can you answer the question then? You might not like it but I also think it’s important

[Jamelia]

I should've repped out as soon as I saw Micc. Told myself I would give it a shot, maybe this time it will be different. Clearly not, he just does not approve of my play style at all. He's why I quit my first attempt at Mafia years ago. He would not let up no matter how badly I tried to help town and prove my innocence and it led to a mislynch. Don't even know how the game ended because it left me so frustrated I quit the site.

Or, you can just play and have fun.

[Jamelia]

Scum dont claim pr like that

Even if you think he's scum he has to prove himself, and if he doesn't, we'll lynch him later

We're not lynching him today

Now find somewhere else to vote, or i will vote you

I don’t know if this is how you normally talk, but is there a need to be this harsh? I think it’s unnecessary to be this rude when multiple people are also trying to learn the meta and figure out everything too.

[Jamelia]

Not trying to be harsh or rude, apologies if i came off that way.

Is there anything u want me to elaborate upon?

I understood why the vote needs to be off Dyrenz at the moment since he’s the only PR to claim (still don’t understand why they did that). So right now, there’s really nothing for me to have explained except where we think the direction should go at this point.

We have multiple targets but I’d like it consolidated so we can all come to some sort of agreement that we like and helps us moving forward the next days or so.

[Jamelia]

Guys I don't know what to do now, my only lean now is on Jamelia and that's mostly for a combination of low effort posting and continuing to push Chemist without really adding new reasons to lynch. I guess for now I'll just...

UNVOTE: Luecosticte
VOTE: Jamelia

Everyone else seems to be contributing at least somewhat. Maybe the more experienced players are gaining better insight than I am on what is truly productive and what is just text for the sake of text.

And now back to me for your everlasting list of targets.

I’m not low effort posting, I’m trying to contribute to the analysis of fighting and explanations from people because I haven’t had many follow up questions to my posts and when I do give analysis, it’s either ignored or brushed past.

I’m also not “pushing” for chemist. In my opinion if we’re voting based on who we all think is the most “scum acting” so far, my vote is for Chemist. I’m not trying to change anyone opinions on it, but no one has convinced me that someone else has been scummier than them.

[Jamelia]

If we were voting based off of “who will help us win and contributed the best”, then I’d probably vote for you, Dyrenz except you decided to PR claim and no one has CC’d you.

Logically there are people who I have also deemed scum (which I wrote in my original analysis a few pages back), which has only been brought up now.

[Jamelia]

Guys I don't know what to do now, my only lean now is on Jamelia and that's mostly for a combination of low effort posting and continuing to push Chemist without really adding new reasons to lynch. I guess for now I'll just...

UNVOTE: Luecosticte
VOTE: Jamelia

Everyone else seems to be contributing at least somewhat. Maybe the more experienced players are gaining better insight than I am on what is truly productive and what is just text for the sake of text.

And now back to me for your everlasting list of targets.

I’m not low effort posting, I’m trying to contribute to the analysis of fighting and explanations from people because I haven’t had many follow up questions to my posts and when I do give analysis, it’s either ignored or brushed past.

I’m also not “pushing” for chemist. In my opinion if we’re voting based on who we all think is the most “scum acting” so far, my vote is for Chemist. I’m not trying to change anyone opinions on it, but no one has convinced me that someone else has been scummier than them.

So wait if you're not pushing me then you don't want me lynched correct

Because if not they why aren't you pushing me, and if so why aren't you if you think I'm the scummiest?

Don’t play semantics and twist my words, please. The argument was that I was “pushing” you to be the target and being adamant about you being lynched. That’s not my feelings and I stated that.

You are the one that hasn’t proven to me you aren’t scum based off of the responses being said. That doesn’t mean I cannot be persuaded a different way, but my opinion on the matter isn’t AS STRONG as other people’s scumreads.

[Jamelia]

Because you're the scumteam?


/s



...?

And what would be your read on this? Just because?

[Jamelia]

I absolutely agree that voting for Norwegian without any explanation and hammering the vote was scummy.

Farren putting their vote on Norwegian waiting for them to explain their posts makes sense. But I don't quite understand Micc letting it go to L-1 10 minutes after, and then Oobsy hammering almost instantaneously.

Oobsy NEVER expressed any intentions of even saying Norwegian was scummy either.

[Jamelia]

I don’t counter claim Oobsy but I’m not mafia. So I don’t really know what to say/do to prove that.

[Jamelia]

Let's start seeing some action, people. Votes. Questions. Opinions and responses. Something. Anything. We don't need a hammer yet, but we do need to at least start looking for nails.

Apathetic towns lose games.

Well, from the beginning I’ve always been weary of Chemist. I’ve mentioned this before in previous posts.

I obviously sense some sort of scumminess from Oobsy, since they’re voting for me. But I need to investigate a little more.

I have been reading pretty much every day.

[Jamelia]

I obviously sense some sort of scumminess from Oobsy, since they’re voting for me.

If I weren't actually

Tracker

the real one would have counter-claimed me, since that guarantees a

Mafia

gets lynched with only

50%

chance a

Town

also gets lynched.

Micc

, vote

Jamelia

. I'm not voting

chemist1422

unless you promise to self-hammer if he's

Town

, or give a better reason than

"a real brief review of some ISO's"

.

I mean, if you want to strong arm someone into voting for me without any real scumlead, that’s sorta weird. You weren’t accusing me of anything Day 1.

[Jamelia]

Jamelia: is Chemist currently your strongest scumread? If not, who is?

I think something that I’ve picked up on is that people love to go for those they believe are the scummiest at that current moment, but not looking at overall game.

I think my strongest scumread is Oobsy, based on hammering D1 on norwegian without scumreading them before that point. I still think as a whole everyone has a scumread on Chemist however, including myself.

[Jamelia]

Jamelia: is Chemist currently your strongest scumread? If not, who is?

I think something that I’ve picked up on is that people love to go for those they believe are the scummiest at that current moment, but not looking at overall game.

I think my strongest scumread is Oobsy, based on hammering D1 on norwegian without scumreading them before that point. I still think as a whole everyone has a scumread on Chemist however, including myself.

What’s up with the last line?

Like Farren said, based on “process of elimination” you would be the person that has acted the “most scummy” all game. However I definetly agree that you are the obvious target at the moment.

Answering Farren’s question:

Right now I think my gut is telling me Skitter as the vote. I like Micc/Leuco’s content, and personally I don’t think there’s enough evidence of scum-related actions/context to justify voting for them (from my perspective). Although Skitter cannot stick up for themselves for a few days.

I think I’d like to wait a little bit and see other people post and talk about the vote in order to have a clearer target.

[Jamelia]

I don’t necessarily think Chemist’s post was scummy, and with the bandwagon of people (way more than the majority) thinking so, I guess I’m more inclined to think he is town sided?

I keep re-reading it waiting to be like oh yeah, that was super scummy. But it wasn’t to me

Let's start seeing some action, people. Votes. Questions. Opinions and responses. Something. Anything. We don't need a hammer yet, but we do need to at least start looking for nails.

Apathetic towns lose games.

Well, from the beginning I’ve always been weary of Chemist. I’ve mentioned this before in previous posts.

I obviously sense some sort of scumminess from Oobsy, since they’re voting for me. But I need to investigate a little more.

I have been reading pretty much every day.

this is a bad look and kinda summarizes Jamelia's progression on me, which I have an issue with reading their ISO

they go back and forth a lot on their read on me and it feels like they're trying to push a scum agenda

VOTE: Jamelia

I’ve never changed my stance on you. I said from the beginning that I felt like your initial vote wasn’t scummy (the RVS debate). However, I’ve always said that your reasoning and defense afterwards was scummy. ISO amy posts again and you’ll see that.

[Jamelia]

I don’t necessarily think Chemist’s post was scummy, and with the bandwagon of people (way more than the majority) thinking so, I guess I’m more inclined to think he is town sided?

I keep re-reading it waiting to be like oh yeah, that was super scummy. But it wasn’t to me

Let's start seeing some action, people. Votes. Questions. Opinions and responses. Something. Anything. We don't need a hammer yet, but we do need to at least start looking for nails.

Apathetic towns lose games.

Well, from the beginning I’ve always been weary of Chemist. I’ve mentioned this before in previous posts.

I obviously sense some sort of scumminess from Oobsy, since they’re voting for me. But I need to investigate a little more.

I have been reading pretty much every day.

this is a bad look and kinda summarizes Jamelia's progression on me, which I have an issue with reading their ISO

they go back and forth a lot on their read on me and it feels like they're trying to push a scum agenda

VOTE: Jamelia

I’ve never changed my stance on you. I said from the beginning that I felt like your initial vote wasn’t scummy (the RVS debate). However, I’ve always said that your reasoning and defense afterwards was scummy. ISO amy posts again and you’ll see that.

In the post I quoted, you can clearly see that you said you thought I was more likely town.

That was Post 110, after a lengthy discussion on whether or not your initial post was RVS or scummy. I said that with people jumping on your “bandwagon” of votes, it would be more likely that you were town-sided. Anyone can ISO any posts and see that since then, I have stood firm on your reasonings and your posts to be scummy. I voted with Norweigian for you to be voted out, and I have said for a while that I thought you should be voted.

If anyone BESIDES chemist wants to refute what I’m saying, please find more proof.

[Jamelia]

Hi! I’m sorry for my inactivity. I didn’t check if we had started last night and woke up this morning and ran to the forum haha.

I’ve never played mafia on this board before (or in this community) but I’m looking forward to it!

Got any thoughts on the game so far?

I’ll be completely honest I don’t understand the automatic accusations? I don’t think anyone has done anything too scummy but obviously I am still new to the MS meta.

This is a partner-y sort of post if chemist is scun

Hmm. Next time should I just agree with what everyone else is saying? If the goal is to find out who mafia is, and we have more than the majority of the game jumping on the bandwagon, odds are Chemist shouldn’t be scum right? Like I obviously can be wrong here but if we’re going on the logic of “well other people did it then so will I”, then a lot of people have seem scummy so far.

Which I mention on this post, 6 posts later.

[Jamelia]

I would like to hammer on Chemist. Is there anything I should be thinking about before I do so? Specifically from chemist themself. Am I missing something here that should change my mind.

[Jamelia]

I will be hammering on chemist in 24 hours from this post.

If people want to unvote so we can discuss this further, please do.

I want to give a lot of time in between now and then just so Chemist can push for someone else (whether it be me or whoever they think is scummy), and hopefully we can get some new evidence to help us.

[Jamelia]

I would like to hammer on Chemist. Is there anything I should be thinking about before I do so? Specifically from chemist themself. Am I missing something here that should change my mind.

So posts like these make me kinda wary that this is going to flip scum

Why do “posts like these” make you feel that way

[Jamelia]

Feels like you're asking permission to hammer, and like you want to be talked our of it almost?

Idk the underlying train of thought is weird

Farren just said I needed to give time and wait until I hammer. But ok

[Jamelia]

Well you just hammered on chemist so

[Jamelia]

Well you just hammered on chemist so

Oh, I thought he only had three votes.

He did, it takes 4 to lynch.

[Jamelia]

Interesting kill.

I suspect that whoever mafia is, is banking on me having a “noob” mentality and taking out someone who was saying I was partners with Chemist, since at that time they were the only one (besides Skitter) who has been against what I’ve been saying.

I’m interested to hear more about Farren’s read on Leuco, but I suspect that I will be one of the options to lynch.

[Jamelia]

Interesting kill.

I suspect that whoever mafia is, is banking on me having a “noob” mentality and taking out someone who was saying I was partners with Chemist, since at that time they were the only one (besides Skitter) who has been against what I’ve been saying.

I’m interested to hear more about Farren’s read on Leuco, but I suspect that I will be one of the options to lynch.

I initially parsed your comment as "whoever mafia is, is banking on me ([having a “noob” mentality]

and

[taking out someone who was saying I was partners with Chemist])..." which made no sense whatsoever and looked scummy. Guessing it's supposed to be parsed as "whoever mafia is, is ([banking on me having a “noob” mentality]

and

[taking out someone who was saying I was partners with Chemist])..." which does make sense.

I would be surprised if scum was thinking of you at all when they made that kill. Mr Oobsy was an uncountered PR that - with Chemist dead - was now a significant threat to scum, as he could get both incontestable clears and hits. That alone is overwhelming justification to kill him and not anybody else. Trying to read anything else into it isn't going to be productive.

I'll address the Leuocsticte read in a separate post.

Sorry. I meant it as, they were going to make it look like I would take out Oobsy since Oobsy was saying Chemist/I were partners. Then they can campaign “Well, since Jamelia is new and might not understand the meta, of course they would take out the 1 person who claimed them/Chemist were partners”.

[Jamelia]

I think your chemist push is awful, and misrepy, and scummy

I also think this post from way back when we were first discussing Chemist’s posts is interesting.

I also didn’t vote for Chemist D2 because I was waiting to hammer. I voted for Chemist D1, even when the vote was still on Norwegian.

[Jamelia]

First: how D2 went down.

At the start of D2, from the scum perspective, Mr Oobsy must have looked like a very tantalizing mislynch. He committed a flagrant violation of site protocol that clearly benefited scum and not Town, and the scum know he's not actually scum. Micc jumps on him right away. I follow suit, although I don't do so immediately. I wait until 36 hours have elapsed. Plotinus prods Mr Oobsy not too long after that; Mr Oobsy claims shortly thereafter; both Micc and I unvote.

Everyone else stands back, including scum|Chemist.

Not much here, I think. I know I'm not scum; Micc could be scum trying to get the obvious mislynch started, but just as plausible he's Town making another logical-but-wrong vote. Voting for a Town player who hammered Town without intent is pretty NAI.

I was looking back at the Norwegian vote as well, and Micc immediately votes for them after you, leading to an L-1. I think it’s interesting that Micc/Chemist both voted for Leuco at the beginning. Since we now know that Chemist is maf, it makes sense to me that Micc could be mafia as well (if Chemist was following suit and trying to get a random mislynch going ASAP D1).

[Jamelia]

I am more inclined to believe Micc is more scummy than Leuco at that moment.

[Jamelia]

Which is it, Farren; was Chemist already doomed (and therefore hammering him was harmless), or was he not doomed (and therefore I'm

townier

for having put him out of misery when he still could've been saved from the rope)?

I think he was doomed since D1. There were plenty of distractions that day though. From Dyrenz’s RP spill to Norwegian/Oobsy drawing out conclusions that were just ultimately not true, we still had an underlying truth that Chemist had not adequately provided any reasons for their scummy behavior.

Micc pucks up on this BUT still votes for Norwegian. Then D2 immediately starts the vote on Chemist. Now D3 knows that Farren has been scum-reading Leuco for a while, starts the vote on them.

To me Micc is being opportunistic instead of analyzing what’s been happening.

[Jamelia]

Which is it, Farren; was Chemist already doomed (and therefore hammering him was harmless), or was he not doomed (and therefore I'm

townier

for having put him out of misery when he still could've been saved from the rope)?

I think he was doomed since D1. There were plenty of distractions that day though. From Dyrenz’s RP spill to Norwegian/Oobsy drawing out conclusions that were just ultimately not true, we still had an underlying truth that Chemist had not adequately provided any reasons for their scummy behavior.

Micc pucks up on this BUT still votes for Norwegian. Then D2 immediately starts the vote on Chemist. Now D3 knows that Farren has been scum-reading Leuco for a while, starts the vote on them.

To me Micc is being opportunistic instead of analyzing what’s been happening.

I'm having a hard time finding a way to say this nicely, but "opportunistic" is one of those words where if you remove it from your vocabulary, you'll immediately have become a better scum hunter.

But in this case, I think “opportunistic” is the exact word I want to use. I believe that your actions (to me) are more opportunistic (selfish) vs. analysis-driven (team oriented).

[Jamelia]

I’ll post my reads about that later on tonight. I’m just at work so that’s why I’m being short.

[Jamelia]

I am more inclined to believe Micc is more scummy than Leuco at that moment.

what do you think of the fact that micc started the chemist train?

The "start" of the chemist train was actually started by you, but Micc was the first one to vote for Chemist, correct. However, this vote wasn't held on any merit.

For me: my "opportunistic" claim about Micc comes from my own personal style of playing at this point? I may be viewing this from a "lucid stream of thought" type of thing, but from the beginning I felt like Micc has jumped onto wagons of people who were brought up by others first. For example, voting for Dyrenz after Skitter had suspicions of them (this also occured with the Chemist post#16). Then, states that he OPPOSES voting for Chemist on post #422 and prefers Leoco & settles for Oobsy after Farren begins pushing for Leoco.

Then, immediately after Farren votes for Norwegian, Micc votes for him as well, stating that Norwegian's posts (#464 / 471) did not add up. The progression just doesn't make logical sense to me in the timeline Micc presented in D1.

To which after daychange, Micc immediately votes for Oobsy for hammering. This stays until Oobsy claims (once again, Micc voting for Town until they claim, and then they unvote).

--

I do agree Farren with your scum-hunt on Leuco. I think you did a great job on gathering evidence and I think that Leuco needs to continue to respond to these claims correctly and precisely. I do have a question about Leuco's progression. As a mafia, why would Leuco hammer on their own Mafia partner, especially when I was giving at least 24 hours for Chemist to give ANY response or for someone else to figure out a different vote.

[Jamelia]

I've reviewed Micc's progression on Norwegian.

I can see at least one thing I will probably want to follow up on, but I need to chew on it for a bit. It's not directly related to the progression itself, though. That seems fine. What about the progression do you dislike?

I couldnt really get him to vote norweigian earlier in the phase, but he cast the l1 vote pretty easily/uncautiously. It felt bandwagon-y to me

For the record, i've seen mr oobsey online multiple times yesterday

Also, what I posted about Micc being opportunistic (I guess BANDWAGON-Y is the better word? *rolls eyes*) is the same opinion Skitter had... on post 553.

I wish you were more cooperative Skitter because the way you talk to everyone is just so combative most of the time. But whatever. It's mafia not a boardroom lol

[Jamelia]

Let me ask you this -- do you accumulate scumpoints for lying about stuff that can never be proven (such as your state of mind)?

I mean, you'd have to, right? Subconsciously if you know you're not scum and other people believe you are, you are going to be more inclined to believe THEY are the ones that are scummy. I am still new to this so I am trying to look for evidence and look past that immediate "Well, they're against me so I NEED to be against them" mentality. For example, I could just be trying to get Skitter out since they've scumread me many times now, but I just don't think they're AS scummy as I think micc or even you are at this point.

To me, the only person who I believe is 100% town is Farren.

[Jamelia]

This approach of, "I'm just going to see which way the winds are blowing and then be the first to vote that way" just doesn't seem very helpful. It would be better to base it on one's independent analysis rather than just blindly following others' lead.

VOTE: Micc

Sigh. But wouldn't this be hypocritical of you? This is the first round that I have pushed pretty hard for a Micc scum-read (and from the posts I've seen / ISO'd, this is the hardest Micc has been seen as scummy from 1 person), wouldn't that make you just voting the way the "winds are blowing?". Since that vote is currently you, wouldn't the only other option be... Micc?

[Jamelia]

Oh, I thought he only had three votes.

You wanna know what I think about people ignoring protocol and dropping the hammer "prematurely"? On the record I tell you that I discourage the practice. Off the record I tell you that it's an invaluable way of lynching scum that might otherwise go free.

So then which one is it? Did you hammer prematurely on purpose or on accident?

[Jamelia]

I do agree Farren with your scum-hunt on Leuco. I think you did a great job on gathering evidence and I think that Leuco needs to continue to respond to these claims correctly and precisely. I do have a question about Leuco's progression. As a mafia, why would Leuco hammer on their own Mafia partner, especially when I was giving at least 24 hours for Chemist to give ANY response or for someone else to figure out a different vote.

Scum-reasons to hammer a scum-partner:

1) To gain town credit from the flip.
2) To end discussion early.
3) To paint people who didn't get on the wagon as scummy.

In Leucosticte's particular case, I'd say #1. Check out my post 706 - I laid out how I thought the day would have gone if Leucosticte hadn't hammered.

I can agree that Leuco COULD have done this with a scum intent, but I don’t think it was with intent to gain credit from the flip, especially when we all chastised Oobsy for hammering early D1 on a TOWN. We know that Chemist is mafia, and maybe Leuco knew this too, but chances are that hammer doesn’t happen since Micc admitted that they would have unvoted if they saw the L-1.

[Jamelia]

I also am not trying to “clear” Leuco either. In the same way I wasn’t defending Chemist but rather calling out other scummy content, I am pointing things that other players are doing that are inconsistent and scummy to me.

[Jamelia]

This approach of, "I'm just going to see which way the winds are blowing and then be the first to vote that way" just doesn't seem very helpful. It would be better to base it on one's independent analysis rather than just blindly following others' lead.

VOTE: Micc

you see, it funny because its ironic...

skitter continuously expresses mild scum read on micc, then jamelia starts expressing similar read....then Leucosticte votes Micc. Who's seeing "which way the winds are blowing and then being the first to vote that way" now?

To be fair, Skitter has had a mild scum read on pretty much everyone left.

[Jamelia]

oh Jamelia pointed this out already. Props to him for his independent thinking on that point...or something.

You know, because he woke up before me and got to post first. Because everyone knows that sleeping in and missing the chance to give your opinion first is a scum trait.

Want to expand on this? You know what I meant from my post but you’re looking to take it in this direction.

[Jamelia]

Let's break your post down, Micc.

Calling skitter's page 1 comment the start of the chemist train is laughably misrepresentive of what lead to him getting lynched. Like I'm not going to claim to have strong armed that wagon, or even been fully in support of it going through, but saying that skitter started a day 2 lynch wagon with a comment in post 14 is mind bogglingly off base with reality.

I didn't claim that Skitter's claim was the definite start. Notice me putting it in "start" because you're right, they were just saying it was an early scumread. But, I think Skitter's "fact" that YOU started the train to get Chemist lynched was incorrect, because you eventually change your mind off of Chemist and then oppose their lynching later in the day.

Please answer what is scummy about being on wagons that other people brought up first. Have you considered that it takes half the playerlist to make a lynch, and that if we don't make a lynch before the deadline our win percentage drops significantly? Reality is, teamwork takes leaders and followers, and being able to fall into the appropriate role at the right time is a valuable skill.

I don't think that it is scummy to be on wagons that other people brought up first if this follows a progression of thinking that makes sense. To others your progression makes sense, to me it doesn't. I don't understand how you got to the point that Norwegian should be the one to go. You mention later in this post that it's because "there were 3 days until deadline and no meaningful wagon", yet you were the one that ended the Chemist wagon AFTER everyone who was defending Chemist (mainly me) switched their minds and decided Chemist was a good D1 lynch.

My opposition of the chemist wagon came in an entirely different day phase than my vote on him. There were 2 deaths and a PR claim in between. Is it unreasonable for me to shift around my reads with that new information? The only real change in order was him moving above you after all.

Right. Your opposition to the Chemist wagon came when the other scumreads were not as strong as Chemist's (D1), which to me is scummy looking back, since we now know that the two people you were opposing the most were both town AND PR's (Norweigan/Oobsy).

If you think the reasons I jumped on Norwegian are fake then feel free to push me for that, but the case you're pushing now is bad scumhunting and you should stop.

How is it bad scumhunting? I am breaking down your VOTE PROGRESSION, not the people you are voting for. I think your reasonings for voting for Norwegian are accurate but I think they came at the wrong time and went against the line of thoughts you had before then (which included a Chemist/Oobsy/Leuco vote D1).

You'll have to expand on what you're problem with me voting Obbsy immediately in Day 2 is. From my perspective I did everything you're asking of me by voting a wagon that wasn't brought up by others first. You might hate that the outcome was a PR claim, but that in itself doesn't make me scum.

I don't have an issue with you voting for Oobsy. I just find that after we hammered D1 on someone who was town, it should have been learned not to vote that quickly until we adequately find information. Your logic is absolutely correct that round (you can see after you I also agree that Oobsy needs to explain their reasoning), but that's just that. I'd rather have someone who isn't scum explain their reasoning so we can either take our votes off of them OR, have the scum explain their reasoning so we can gain more information on rounds like this.

It's like I'm being punished for not being online playing this game 24-7, which is stupid, because playing mafia 24-7 is incredibly unhealthy.

I hope that this post explains my reasoning for scum-reading you. It is not because of you "not posting first" which is stupid and dumb reasoning. I just believe that your progression has been off.

[Jamelia]

Sorry, I said in this post that Norwegian was the PR/Town. I meant to say DYRENZ/Oobsy were people Micc was targeting who were both revealed to be RP/Town.

[Jamelia]

I'm frustrated because the case being built around me essentially comes down to, people expressed opinions and Micc shares those opinions, but didn't have the chance to post them first. It's like I'm being punished for not being online playing this game 24-7, which is stupid, because playing mafia 24-7 is incredibly unhealthy.

To this case then, I have a hypothetical.

Let's say we lynch Leuco this round (which I would be fine with, since Farren has done a great job with this evidence and I firmly believe that Leuco could be the OTHER scum as well), and Leuco happens to be town.

Between Me/Skitter/Farren, who is the scum and why?

[Jamelia]

Ok sounds good.

[Jamelia]

Could you link me a wiki article that shows questions I can and cannot ask? I don’t want to ruin the meta by asking questions that don’t get explanations.

[Jamelia]

For example, voting for Dyrenz after Skitter had suspicions of them

When did skitter show suspicion of Dyrenz?

I honestly don’t even know why I said Skitter, because she didn’t show suspicion of Dyrenz. My apologies.

[Jamelia]

I'm frustrated because the case being built around me essentially comes down to, people expressed opinions and Micc shares those opinions, but didn't have the chance to post them first. I

t's like I'm being punished for not being online playing this game 24-7,

which is stupid, because playing mafia 24-7 is incredibly unhealthy.

i think this is misrepresentative of why people were scumreading you

i don't get the vibe of the bolded like at all

I'm welcome to hearing a more accurate representation of the case as you see it.

From my point of view "people expressed opinions and Micc shares those opinions, but didn't have a chance to post them first" is pretty damn accurate, at least for Leocosticte. Jamelia started thereabout and then transitioned into being about my read progression, and then didn't have anything more to say when I showed how misrepresentative he was being of what happened on day 1.

I didn’t have more to say because I don’t have anything to respond to. This isn’t being right/wrong it’s just an opinion.

[Jamelia]

I'm welcome to hearing a more accurate representation of the case as you see it.

From my point of view "people expressed opinions and Micc shares those opinions, but didn't have a chance to post them first" is pretty damn accurate, at least for Leocosticte. Jamelia started thereabout and then transitioned into being about my read progression, and then didn't have anything more to say when I showed how misrepresentative he was being of what happened on day 1.

I didn’t have more to say because I don’t have anything to respond to. This isn’t being right/wrong it’s just an opinion.

I'd say you do have something to respond to. Micc's made comments on his progression. The only part of post 773 you responded to was to his answering your question about his reads. The rest of it deserves your attention too.

I think his comments speak for themself. He doesn’t find his own progression scummy, and I think his explanation makes sense. I think that the safer bet right now is Leuco, but I just wanted to throw out my opinion on a progression that wasn’t explained well to me. It was explained and I understand it, whether I think it’s scummy or not.

It’s up to y’all to agree or disagree with me. I agree with the reads on leuco, as well. If that’s the direction we want to go.

[Jamelia]

I’m going to hammer on Leuco in a few hours. If they or anyone else want to say anything before then go for it.

[Jamelia]

VOTE: Leuco

[Jamelia]

Oh yay!

That was so fun.

@Micc I apologize for being wrong on my scum read of you! I just wanted to put my opinion out there and I am happy that you and Farren convinced me otherwise. Regardless of the path I think winning is better than being right in this situation lol.

This was a great first game. It taught me a lot and I hope to see all of you around!

If there’s anything I can improve on please let me know