Mini Normal 2101 - Electronic Music Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Vorkuta]

Hey again to skitter, jigglypuff, flubber, nom x3, and tchill.
Nice to meet the rest of you.

VOTE: nom x3 for self-explanatory reasons

[Vorkuta]

Probably from the signup thread

[Vorkuta]

Btw for those at home counting, Luca is at 4.

Personally idc if he gets lynched, but theres scummier people at hand right now

@L-2
VOTE: luca

[Vorkuta]

Wagons are cool

[Vorkuta]

Wagons help solve and push the game forward

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: flubbernugget

What a name lol.

Yes he has lol

[Vorkuta]

So what was the relevance of the post you quoted? @Vor

An.... announcement along the lines of "I see wagon, I vote wagon"

[Vorkuta]

So Luca and Robb are possibly scum because they said hello?

I said hi and nice to meet you guys as well but ok

Wtf is this liberal application of the newbie scum greeting tell

[Vorkuta]

We have several players that get along with each other just perfectly well in this game, and they totally aren't bringing their butthurt from outside in here.

[Vorkuta]

*didn't question you

Nah it's fine- I get it.

I'm of the opinion that wagons are the fastest way out of

my favorite part of the game

RVS, and after a game where RVS lasted 20 pages or so, I like my wagons.

If Luca is scum, we'll see what/who the counter wagon will be, and if not, we'll see how/whether scum finds a way to hammer it home or not.

Much more exciting this way IMHO

[Vorkuta]

I dont see an intent to hammer.

let's fix that

intent

[Vorkuta]

intent intensifies

Is there a TL;DR (didn't wade through pages of shitposting and obviously personal attacks) for yours truly as to why you think the way ^?
Can it not be entirely plausible that the conflict is TvTv...T?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: luca

I'm actually not but someone was going to do it- why not me?

[Vorkuta]

Is there a universe in which this shitfest subsides anytime soon and we can all get along better?
Because I can't read anyone right now, and I don't want to dig deeper in these interactions

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: azuresky

[Vorkuta]

@sky i have regular vla fridays and saturdays

[Vorkuta]

Not gonna lie- the self vote partially did it for me. 50% knee-jerk

[Vorkuta]

Ayt did we get all the personal garbage out of our systems? Great.
First order of business IMHO: is this post death spewing accurate or personally motivated?

Vorkuta PM and Nom are probably town.

Soul, Robb, TChill, Luca need rope

Skitter, havo and Nugget.

1 scum in there maybe, probably not.

If you believe Robb to be town, then Chill/Luca should die immediately. Look at how they pushed on me sheeping Robb’s deathtunnel.

Again Chill went all high and mighty saying “oh you shouldnt get so frustrated blah blah blah” for townpoints.

Soul is lolscum.

Balatant sheeping. Good vig/cop bait.

[Vorkuta]

You say that because you're implicated so

[Vorkuta]

Vork actually taking that list seriously is lazy

How about her town reads?

And also there's this question if whether you, Luca, & tchill are scum to have engaged and pushed and escalated, or just wrong!town.

I also semi-don't buy personal appeals along the lines of

As toxic as azure was I bring her to lylo. No way I let her get lynched d1 if I'm scum. She'd help scum out too much if she was in the whole game.

[Vorkuta]

You say posturing, I say trying to solve and/or peacekeep.

[Vorkuta]

{}
{Luca}
{skitter, HAvo, Tchill}
{Jigglypuff, soul, Flubber}
{Robb}

Some of these are "policy" reads but I hope that will change as the day goes along and they contribute something AI.

[Vorkuta]

Oh boy

[Vorkuta]

Sorry I forgot to announce an unexpected V/LA, but I've more or less caught up.

[Vorkuta]

Right- let's begin with the usual suspects

@skitter- come on. What even is this push.
You know my MO when it comes to scum games so if you think this even compares to cats then I have nothing but facepalm emojis for you

@papa leaf- it's funny because out of all the slots you replaced, it HAD to be fallsoul, like the one person that I probably would've actually decided to push properly today. now we have the usual "dun vote this slot until endgame" shenanigans with your replace in

[Vorkuta]

Havo seems to be the only one out of the remaining "active" players that's doing meaningful pushing and solving IMHO.

Robb has one trick in his book and every other posts comes from his "lets hypertunnel" agenda. I don't know if this lack of nuance is his town play, but I can see it go both ways.

Tchill feels like he's saying words but not producing actual content with his posts- reads as someone being political and not attracting any unwanted attention

Flubber, like ^, has even more hot air in his ISO. However in our previous game together he was pretty much exactly like this and it was very difficult to get stuff out of him so this might well be his town game

I don't have a read on jigglypuff but I think there are more interesting slots to hunt today

Luca is also doing solving

[Vorkuta]

so why do you think skitter is town?

{skitter, HAvo, Tchill}

That was my null (tier list goes like solid > lean > null > lean > solid), but I'm opposed to lynching her based on the expected utility she'll bring to town.
Same applies to papa leaf, although I have less faith in that, esp. considering his opening

I'm your top scum read and this is why?

I did mention that it was more policy based until I/we cooled down and there was other in game content to analyze.
However so far, you're kind of a one-trick pony and that's just

[Vorkuta]

so what you call a one trick pony, I call pressuring a lurker who had a scummy play day one, scummy vote day 1, and isn't doing anything to produce game content to analyze.

pot-ey-toh/po-tah-to eh?
I notice you already moving up a gear, and this is extremely rich considering that your next comment is literally this charming insult

you are just a useless turd who doesn't care about finding scum

I have waited a full week for you to contribute.

I contribute at my own pace as I can't pull decent and solid reads out of my backside, especially when I'm in the center of attention and hogging the spotlight. I was away w/o internet for a while (yes, my bad for not informing blah blah), however I can say the same thing about you: I've been waiting the entirety of D2 for you to say literally anything that isn't "vork is scum, why are you guys not vorking?" which might help me read you.

You haven't.

get wrecked

*looks at the wagon on me dismantling*
right

[Vorkuta]

and you still have done nothing

a slight hyperbole just like the one you made right ^, so don't expect to get away with the double standard of bending the truth

[Vorkuta]

And pretty sure there isn’t 1 post this day phase

So.... if we reduce everything down to the bare minimum, your case on me is reducible to
-'OMGUS because rob was horrible to azure on D1 and pointing that out is bad'
-'vork doesnt contribute as town'
And I'm going to address the second one, but I'll have to stop

feeding the troll

arguing with you long enough to get there.

Don’t really appreciate you ignoring this question

skitter and papa leaf are just players that I probably will never be able to read confidently and the hypothetical utility that they may bring to town will outweigh any case I may come up with for lynching either of them early.

[Vorkuta]

Who’s the scumz?

can they please form a neat and orderly line

you seem to like have ~real thoughts~ when you're town
when you're scum you make shitty pushes (ahem on the slot that claimed miller in cats)
and seem to lose motivation to post sometimes (although tbf you were apparently vla, but i didn't know that like before this post)
i think your push on azure yesterday was god awful
if you're town how am i looking at this wrongly?

I disagree as I am horrible at having any "good" (correct and relevant- not just crowdpleasing) thoughts as town and my only contribution is to sheep someone I hope is town (unless I have a PR).
Shitty pushes as scum was just a trick or two trying to invoke "too audacious to actually be scum". I wasn't quite satisfied with the results so yeah.
As for the azure "push", it was honestly genuine questioning and poking around until the self-vote. I have a history of distrusting any and all scum-claims/self-votes.
If Azure would've kept a clear head, I'd've probably moved on.
Motivation comes and goes tbh. You can imagine how motivated I am/was to poke around in the middle of personal drama, and deal with the inevitable fallout (I still think robb should be policy'd for his D1 play)

um since when is this a thing?

since all my town games?
As scum, I just have to pull stuff out of my backside and appease the crowd.
As town, my reads actually have to be.... you know... "correct" as pretending to do shit doesn't get me closer to my wincon

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: tchill- reread his ISO, disagree with his D1 play, don't like his D2 pushes

[Vorkuta]

And I'm going to address the second one, but I'll have to stop

feeding the troll

arguing with you long enough to get there.

And I'm the one accused of being anti-town

[Vorkuta]

I hate post where ppl apologize for how terrible they are as town.

Hey tchill- remember the last time town!me thought I had a really solid case against you?
I even backed it up with amazing evidence and direct quotes.
Remind me again, how did that go, and how many people did you end up blacklisting as a result? (hint- NC's mini 2070)

pushes an inactive (me) that seems like they wont come back right before deadline.

tries to pocket skitter and flavor by stroking their ego.

as is tradition in every game

Also starting your wall with voting papa leaf and then pivoting onto me mid-wall is also not suspicious at all

[Vorkuta]

a) i said ~real~ thoughts, i didn't say good ones, necessarily. what i mean is that when you're town, i can track your thought processes for the most time, even if i disagree or don't like what you're thinking. in contrast, i don't really see that here.

Once again-

for like the fifth time

, I am unable to HAVE a thought process when all I'm doing is defending from a death tunnel after an unfortunate period of downtime

it's the fact that you gave intent *before* her meltdown

.....
you know that even azure herself acknowledged that as a reaction test right?

c) i mean are you saying you're still demotivated because of the azure thing?

40% yes- feels bad and empathy is a thing
40% yes- robb is still in the game and with 0 ramifications and that's complete bull. 0 scrutiny whatsoever on that slot and everyone's shrugged it off and that's BS
20% other people please post too as well

i mean, am i supposed to read this as you trying to be 'correct' and not just you 'pulling stuff out of your backside'?

this is the vote with which I'm happiest today and is >random of flipping scum based on my amazing analysis

also isn't this what you pulled in ofrhz's game?

doesn't mean it's not true and I don't feel that way
I pull this exact shit with papa leaf in every game regardless of alignment so idk

when he isn't like ~needed~ he tends to fade into the background

ehhhh, no. As scum, I like taking advantage of declining activity/game-state (for some reason there's been quite a bit of that in some of my games ) and score free town-points by pretending to show initiative/stepping-up/leading/contributing
faking it is much easier than actually getting it right

[Vorkuta]

same. its an issue. This one guy named tchill13 keeps calling me a mafiascum god. pretty annoying.

I do this crazy thing where i start a thought process and if it looks like it maybe wrong or theres a better one out there i A-D-A-P-T

or you realized that your thought-process wasn't going to let you get the mislynch you needed/would incriminate you in the future and you changed course

you just follow skitter and FL around and praise them? thats weird.

yes

/s

excuses and apologies for play b4 hand only mean you're scum or you're town that doesn't believe in their own ability and both groups are very detrimental to my goal of lynching scum.

I can think of other more detrimental groups than someone who's not very confident in their scum-hunting but ok
you're not welcome in my townblock btw

And get back to me regarding Mini Normal 2070 will you?

[Vorkuta]

ninja'd so fucking hard wow

@Vork pretty sure mini 2070 is top 3 most angry moments ive ever had. regardless of your push on me i was town so you read me wrong. not sure what point youre trying to make.

The point I'm making is
-You've seen what happens when town!me is """"confident""" in their reads
-You've seen my amazingly accurate read percentage (if you followed along that game after D1, I missed all my shit)

While I've improved (ever-so-slightly) since then, I'm now much more cautions when pushing people and whatnot so you SHOULD understand my behavior this game instead of outright dismissing it as "teh scumz".
Especially considering I already hammered azure

The fact that you aren't shows narrow-mindedness and agenda-driven pushing (come up with a target first, justify it later), or is just scummy

both are detrimental to my goal of lynching scum

[Vorkuta]

why are you obsessed with a game ive completely forgotten about?

As ^, it's not an "obsession", it's a reminder that we did indeed play together and you have an example of how I behave as town to compare and contrast my play with

[Vorkuta]

{Luca}
{havo, flubber}
{Papa_leaf, skitter}
{jigglypuff}
{Tchill, Robb}

Luca and Havo are the ones that I think are doing the most genuine scum hunting IMHO.
Havo's D1 play makes her a tier lower than luca

Flubber shows reasoning. He's more active than when he previously was in cats (idk if activity is a tell for him or not) but yeah

The fact that papa_leaf actually CLAIMED VT when there so early is just very surprising to me.
Is he slipping? This is a complete 180 from what I'm used to seeing from him so idk what's happening here and how to process it.

Jigglypuff can stay here for a while because I'm having real difficulties getting a read from him.
I personally sympathize yet hate the wording of

Spoiler:

So, I'm accused of being scum based on how I'm playing this game. Well, I can tell you that I am not Scum. I'm trying to figure things out just as much as the next guy, and I want to try to be useful in some way, shape, or form. However, with not a lot to go off of, I can't say anyone is scum with certainty. I'll give me reads tomorrow at best and give my reasoning as to why I think them. I'm not certain on any of them, which is why I haven't voted yet.

My biggest fear is being wrong, and I don't want to be the ringleader (or be any part) of a bad lynch because of uncertainty.

But they're doing a decent job of explaining their shit which is cool

Robb and Tchill- self explanatory and explained ^

[Vorkuta]

Full disclosure- I'm legitimately trying to reread robb's ISO and trying to understand whether he's coming from town or scum and then I get to this quote

Spoiler:

No you fuck off you stupid bitch. Go play scum better and stay the fuck away from me going forward. You’re lucky I said bitch cause the C word fits your shitty attitude ass much better but the c word probably gets me a “vacation” which I don’t want.

You don’t like what happens, play better or stop playing. Now piss off

and then I lose all goodwill and my rose-tinted glasses come off.

Obligatory "no way scum can be this brazen/callous/outspoken",
but also obligatory "perfect excuse and play to gun for mislynches- pick a random townie each day and tunnel them, rince and repeat"

[Vorkuta]

Lines up with you just blindly following the "better" or "famous" players in a game

The push on you was independent of papa cowbells- I legit thought you were pulling a fast one with "i'm miller" "nvm im ascetic" and wanted to have both options open

Are you trying to make me lose respect for you?

I don't particularly care..?

its terrible. I'd advise you to make mistakes confidently and learn rather than be content to play like that any more.

idk I've made too many as town recently so I'm on a backseat I suppose
also I'm noticing that in quite a few games it's completely plausible for townies to just win on the coattails of other players so there's that as well

[Vorkuta]

scum is not gonna loudly tunnel a different person every day phase that is a horrible strategy.

You say "horrible", some people see "100% viable and optimal"

so basically if you explain yourself your town. FL and Skitter get to be town just because.

no.....?
are you putting words in my mouth, or is there a misunderstanding?

I'm not going to be able to read them on this day phase and that's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Vorkuta]

B. Why even sign up if you're gonna ride coattails

You uhh... realize that you've inspired me to become more confident/independent and now I'm pushing you right?
Also depends on the game- with some games or players I feel like I can accomplish things.

YOU tell me the pros/cons of tunneling a seperate towny as scum every day phase. Tell me why some may view that as the way to play scum.

Isn't this..... like.... self-evident....?
This is quite a small game (8:3 I'm guessing? => D1: mislynch, N1: NK, D2: mislynch: N2: NK, D3: 4:3 LyLo) so it only has to be done twice.
You get absolved of all your responsibility, don't have to waste energy/braincells to come up with reads for other players as they're outside your tunnel, and have more bases covered. It's more optimal than the traditional "pretend to scumhunt, but not too badly" approach of blending in with town. And at the end of the day, you get your mislynch.


pedit
you tell em flubber

[Vorkuta]

Ok tchill, yes you're an amazingly good player, you have immense knowledge of theory and a ton of experience,
I'm sorry I haven't had the fortune of playing with you more often enough to get completely intimidated by you and add you to my list of greats.

Can we get back to this game at hand and discuss mafia theory a bit later?
I'm quite content with my """"surface level reads"""" as I've outlined in my readlist before and I'm not capable of dedicating more braincells to consider more levels of depth and ripples

[Vorkuta]

so youre telling me in lylo that slot thats been tunneling will probably survive said lylo?

Considering lylo is tomorrow (9:2 are only newbie setups right...?) and NK'ing him is just dumb considering what amazing hypothetical lynchbait he is....
and there isn't/wasn't support for a wagon on him esp. given how no-one except for yours truly raised ANY objections to his D1 play....

Yes?

why am i scum exactly Vork?

*inhales*
*exhales*

[Vorkuta]

Spoiler:

Ah robbvna has found his tunnel.

Everyone come and play its safe to post now. "shut up and go vla" was funny but rude lol.

holy shit you could be scumbuddies with him

Because that's not a good case.

"doesn't vote in first few posts. He has to be scum"

That's you turning nothing into something because you think you can read tonally.

garbage attempt to shade = reasons to mislynch

Nomnomnom is scum. That weak push on havo and now it looks like they're trying to get ahead of this lynch and say "I told you so" when azure flips green.

hate this

I'm not frustrated or Irratated btw.

I'm just eyerolling at the fact im getting deathtunneled and venge-voted by Robb and Luca, respectively.

If you honestly believe the wagon on me is town-driven, then even if I am a PR, you dont deserve the claim.

"I'm not frustrated"
"you don't deserve the claim"

Like please stop. You have 2 ppl here tunneling you and you're gonna punish the rest of town because you're... Annoyed. Very stupid.

Eh, azure might be scum after all if they refuse to claim this much.

I feel good about one scum in azure/nomnomnom.

I just feel like it's nomnomnom.

holier than thou attitude comes from cocky scum and not "spirit-of-the-game open-to-genuine-scumhunting" town

I can't remember anything about fallsoul.

That's new though. I'll try "I'm too good for you to catch me as scum" next time someone pushes me.

hate this as well

Hey everybody let's just wave the ego around because w all think we're strong scum players lol.

*inhales*
*exhales*

I skimmed the game and I liked robbs push. Mainly because I didn't see anything that looked town from you azure.

So you're just going to ignore my request? lol

I'll get to it eventually... Maybe... Yeah eventually.

sounds about right

Nomnom is yet to make a good point this game imo.

I disagree seeing I found myself in agreement with a few things that nom said but ok

Haha

So hateful.

Please, go hug your parents.

fuel to flame- escalation is not good town play IMHO

@scum

Please leave me in the game for the wifom.

I hate appeals like this

luca, absolutely nothing personal, but you really have no idea what scum me does in any given situation. So if you'd like to push me make a general case.

Not one based on me and my tendencies specifically.

I don't like your dismissal- too handwavey

I do agree that the Vort hammer felt kind of townie - after the self-vote I just assumed Azure was scum already, so I can understand quick-hammering there. Scum obviously would know she was flipping green and might have hesitated.

scum most likely hammer, chalk the wagon up to a stupid self voter and move along...

Scum want a flip to be green lol. Why would that cause hesitation????

So based on my exchange(s) with you, you clearly have an idea of what's "optimal play" for both sides, and anything that isn't optimal for one is automatically the other. This lack of nuance maybe why I dislike your posts and points so much

Ugh, I haven’t read completely, and the slowdown of the site messed with me.

I’m VT. I think I’m L-2, right?

Pushing me as “needs to get in here” is a bad reason because I’m an incredibly active scum player, and Havo has seen me as scum.

self meta is BS. anyone can try something new.

counter: "why fix what isn't broken"

as of right now vork is more dead weight than any player in this game who's inactive because he keeps talking about how bad he is as town and he even mentioned skitter/leaf being "Gods" of some sort. talked as if he couldnt even touch them.

not happy with vork or flavor at all.

i love you too

Also for robb who complained that my "tchill's ISO is bad" post was too vague or whatever

[Vorkuta]

I will flat out admit I have no clue how to read Robb

Hence my 40% policy "insistence" as he is probably a bigger Lylo liability than all of us put together.

is it standard that 11p games have 3 scum? or are you just assuming scum have more than 2 ppl when its still a possibility.

I don't have many 11 player games under my belt so I'm just spit-balling- The 8:3 setup helps my point (scum only has to deathtunnel twice) and I'm assuming that the numbers are balanced by townPR power

english wtf

Of course i didnt know ppl just threw out TR's to tunnelers.

based on my read and re-read of the beginning of D2.... yeah robb's kind of getting a free pass

[Vorkuta]

"holier than thou

gh

" i TR'd azure obv and was getting mad she was punishing other townies out of pure ego and rage.

and I am judging your reaction to her behavior and believe that you can afford yourself the luxury of getting mad... because you're scum- at the time it seemed meh, but upon her greenflip it seems slightly worse
or she hit your teammates and you were concerned for half a second

this is a reasonable response. dude pretty much said he's too good to be caught as scum. "deepwolfing"

sounds kind of right
nom x3 is quite often killed off very early as town
and is allowed to stay quite late as scum (case in point this game lawl)
in fact that very experience is why I voted them as my opening

you realize that nk incriminates me specifically right?

you're trying to convince me that the scum team went into their PT and found the best way to incriminate tchill and tchill alone?
weren't you the one telling people to tone down their egos?

now explain "nuance". You said i lacked it.

once again:
you have very fixed/rigid opinions on what constitutes optimal play as either alignment, and you're very quick to say "this play is suboptimal for one alignment, hence it absolutely comes from the other

join me on my crusade to rope them

".
This lack of flexibility and taking into account players/situations/conditions/environment/gamestate is the lack of nuance that I'm accusing you of
I could also say you're stubborn, but that's not the right word

and is insulting

in terms of meta manipulation: "why fix what isnt broken"... SMH

can you be more condescending?
This is self-evident to me

you just admitted you assumed a 3p scum team because it benefits your robb push

.........
*something about lack of nuance*
It could very well be a 9:2, and then robb would have to death tunnel 3 whole times, and be ignored/dismissed with every single day.
I think it's 8:3, AND CONVENIENTLY ENOUGH, this strengthens my robb case

it should just be obvious someone isnt gonna defend their scum buddy in the way im defending robb. ive got experience with the guy. i think hes town.

oh my look at the self meta

here we can freely agree to disagree, and while it may hypothetically be possible for one of us to budge (maybe in a few more pages worth of walls), I don't share your meta/familiarity of robb.

now vork needs to tell me the difference between robbs town and scum tunneling if he thinks im scum with robb.

Oh I got this.
I INVOKE

heaven forbid i judge someone on their play alone in one game.

maybe in a game or two with him, I might get a taste and learn to develop the distinction.
with my (very limited as I have no shame in admitting) knowledge/experience, I'm going to say that was scum!tunneling
I could completely be wrong, but you wanted me to use that confidence thing so here goes.

[Vorkuta]

i cant antagonize nomnomnom because hes already made your fame list i see. lol. Pointless. I have just wasted my time.

Ok this is BS

How come I'm never allowed to use meta in either abstaining to read people or using it to form opinions
While you're invoking the ever living shit out of your familiarity with robb?

i was saying had I been a part of the scum team we'd be worried about NK'ing one of the 2 i said scum were for sure in.

tbh my experience of scum!PTs and NKs are:
scumplayer A: "hey let's kill random player X"
rest of the team: "yeah sure wtv"
and during DAY PLAY is when they try and make everyone else overthink the kill and all the potential consequences

you assume 3 or 2 days of tunneling gets no attention in lylo.

considering that this hasn't even been brought up
until 2 IRL days before Lylo
yes

im just glad your making you own plays. no need for more discussion. You've made up your mind.

thank you for making me a better player, I shall take this wisdom that you have bestowed upon me and continue to make poor plays and choices

Im not even sure i TR Robb. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in using only his tunneling to SR him. Robb is null for me.

*inhales*
*exhales*
I swear that you're trying to have the best of both worlds in this exchange

I still feel good about a FL/vork

papa leaf would've spoonfed and coached the shit out of me

until he gives up and busses me

[Vorkuta]

3 hours until the deadline and there's literally nothing...

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: papa leaf

[Vorkuta]

ugly
gg wp

Prolly should've crumbed that I received a friendly neighbor tap....