Open 767: Nomination Mafia [Day 7]

[PMysterious]

How times have changed then. Well, I may be late, but hey, I'm here.

VOTE: pisskop

Hey there, how are you?

[PMysterious]

I'm reading through this, yeah, my head is not in the best state to say anything about this.

UNVOTE:

[PMysterious]

Looking through the day so far, I don't think Mutant is scum. I have no idea how this wagon started gaining traction, but there's no reason to assume that he's Scum given just these 9 pages. If I end up having time, I'll look through again and make sure I didn't miss anything. If I need to give any reason, then I can. But even if he is scum, it's best to get as much discussion done as possible so we don't go into the later days as if they were Day 1.

[PMysterious]

I feel like I'm getting deja vu. I can't say why, because I don't know why.

Chances are, two of the 6 on the wagon for Mutant are scum at least. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 of them were on this wagon. We can't really look at this tomorrow, since the Mafia have full reign over who can get put up for lynching, but Day 3, I'll look into this as a possible tool for figuring things out.

[PMysterious]

I feel like I'm getting deja vu. I can't say why, because I don't know why.

Chances are, two of the 6 on the wagon for Mutant are scum at least. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 of them were on this wagon. We can't really look at this tomorrow, since the Mafia have full reign over who can get put up for lynching, but Day 3, I'll look into this as a possible tool for figuring things out.

You’re wording this like you know Mutant’s flip beforehand.

I'm not saying that I know Mutant's flip, but if I were to take a guess, Mutant is probably a Vanilla Townie. I don't think Mutant is Scum, and this rushed wagon kinda proves my point.

[PMysterious]

Looking at the ISO, even worse, Mena didn't even give a reason for being on the wagon in the first place. In fact, he only mentioned it one time.

Pisskop comes across better than mutant in this

Was initially reading pk v mutant as SvS and I still think it maybe could be

He never engaged into why he thought it was SvS or how Pisskop looks better than mutant in the wagon. And now he just gives the threat to Norway if mutant does flip town. A threat that, mind you, unless Norway is put up for nomination, Mena can't actually follow up on.

In all honesty, no one wins in this wagon, and it shows. The wagon felt rushed, the lynch felt rushed, and we're losing 5 days worth of posts that could have been made to help give players stronger reads.

[PMysterious]

Checking through, and with the votes, all of them were on the Mutant wagon, which was the main central focus for this game day.

Norweigian, hammered without mentioning intent, which bothers me. I have a few questions I have brought up in the past, so I'll get to those when I get the chance to look through them. Apologies for not posting in a while otherwise.

[PMysterious]

Norweigian, hammered without mentioning intent

That's wrong.

I was referring to Day 1, where if you look at the ISO before the hammer on Mutant, there was no intent to hammer, whatsoever. I'm not referring to what's happening today just yet. Apologies for any confusion on this matter.

[PMysterious]

Now I understand how town felt during large normal 222.

Yeah, says the guy I had to replace. You could have been in that role for the entire game, too.

I was referring to Day 1, where if you look at the ISO before the hammer on Mutant, there was no intent to hammer, whatsoever. I'm not referring to what's happening today just yet. Apologies for any confusion on this matter.

Send us message when your timezone enters day 2, okay?

It already is in Day 2. I know the players in the lynch pool today, Titus, Norwegian, and

Correspondence

. I just brought up Day 1 because I wanted to bring it up.

[PMysterious]

I've held back my feelings towards him at this point, but Mutant does seem overly defensive in this game, i'd think he would start pointing fingers by now but he hasn't actually voted anyone. I'm starting to consider this quote:

Mutant is clearly trying to piss no one off.

I'm declaring intent. Will hammer Mutant if nothing new comes up.

Looking through again, and I found this.

A few hours later, you hammered, before he had a chance to respond. This is before Mutant made the tirade in twilight. The fact you never even gave Mutant a chance to respond is scummy, even if you declared intent to hammer.

Correspondence, there's not enough to go off of and he's being replaced anyway, so it's going to go back to square 1 anyway. Titus, I'm mixed on. Norwegian, however, pulled one of the most BS moves I've ever seen in a Mafia game. Declaring intent or not, the fact that mutant was never given a proper chance to respond, is not only unfair to Mutant, but also scummy. So, as much as I do want to respect the country of Norway, my vote has to go here.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

[PMysterious]

PM’s entire ISO is literally him describing the game and trying to look like he’s doing stuff while avoiding meaningful solving

It is not a town ISO

Until you know the answer to the question you are possessing, there is no such thing as meaningful solving.

Why did Mafia put scum-read players on the chopping block instead of prominent town players? Titus has been scum read by other players (yes, I read this game), Correspondence has been inactive and just now replaced, and Norway, as mentioned, hammered after declaring intent (yes, that is true), but without giving Mutant a chance to respond. In Day 2, wouldn't you put in 3 of the biggest town reads into the nomination pool just to sack one of them off? Even numbered days are glorified night kills to an extent, so why did scum go with these 3 in particular? Especially one that has been inactive with only 2 posts, neither of which holding that much substance. That's implying of course, that all three of them are town.

If one of them wasn't, then why would they put their lives on the line when simply put, they don't have to?

These are the questions that I have, and I want to work together with everyone to figure them out. The reason I suspect Norway of being Mafia, is because of the selfish decision to hammer without giving Mutant a chance to defend after declaring intent. If there was any particular reason for him to do this as Town, then he would have mentioned it during twilight, but he didn't. What reason as Town do you have to declare intent to hammer only to not give the person you're hammering the ability to defend his case? It's a scummy tactic in my mind, and sure, it works differently than most, but I still don't like it nonetheless.

[PMysterious]

We need some more titus votes HERE
We need some more titus votes HERE
There’s not enough votes and too many many scum
There’s not enough votes and too many many scum


Too many scum (we need some more votes in here), Skepta (2019)

I am not convinced that Titus is scum. I'm more convinced in the idea that you are scum. I haven't seen your gameplay, but the fast finger pointing and the aggressive behavior isn't going to win any favor points. Also, this, no offense, was cringe-worthy.

[PMysterious]

Well Joey's been pushing for me and now he seems to think me and Titus are town and you (

referring to GuiltyLion

) might be scum.

So if Titus is scum then obviously i'd be suspicious of him.

In the bold, if that's the case, then this recent vote count says a different story.

VC 2.5:

Titus (4)	Awoo 380, Menalque 391, NorwegianboyEE 479, Sujimichi 709.
NorwegianboyEE (3)	PMysterious, 492, Joey_ 612, Titus 474
GuiltyLion (0)
Not Voting (3)	pisskop 484, Creature, Correspondence

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2019-10-15 12:05:08).

So, if Joey thinks that GuiltyLion is scum, then, why is Joey's vote on you instead of GuiltyLion? In fact, GuiltyLion has no votes at all, granted, mostly because Correspondence was replaced out

BTW, Mod, you need to change Correspondence's name to GuiltyLion

, but still, if Joey was to think GuiltyLion is scum, wouldn't he put his vote on GuiltyLion?

Done

[PMysterious]

Somehow I am starting to lean that GL might be the best flip, somehow. My guts says both titus/nEE are town meh

I saw this, and now I'm curious. If you think GL is the best flip, then explain a few things.

1. For everyone voting Titus, explain why you think Titus is town.

2. For everyone voting NorwegianboyEE (like me), explain why you think Norway is town.

3. If you think GuiltyLion is the best lynch, then why aren't you voting him yourself?

[PMysterious]

It was in reference to GuiltyLion. I was wanting him to answer to everyone voting for the other players. My apologies for the confusion.

Anyway, GuiltyLion, just answer the questions above, and explain it "for" everyone in each category.

[PMysterious]

I meant more that PM's ISO is terrible because she misunderstands things all the time. I'm not definitive on her being scum. I want to believe Joey is town, but the way he's switching the focus on me makes it hard for me to believe in it.

I know this is probably the least important thing to comment on, but, I'm a "he", not a she. Admittedly, my ISO is not the greatest, considering the situation we are in, but I still try to put in an effort to make it work.

But yeah, seeing Joey's recent postings, I find it hard to believe he's Town as well. I'll explain why down below.

I guess PM's alignment will become more apparant over time because I'm not really finding a lot there either. Also no idea what he's doing with those questions but I'll just let that play out whatever it is.

I ask questions, so I can understand where they come from. Dodging the question or downright ignoring it makes me lose trust in that player, which Joey is doing to a tee. When I don't have power roles to back up my claims, I focus on a trust model. If I can't trust a player, then I won't believe them to be town. Answering questions makes it easier for me to gain trust in that player.

[PMysterious]

Dodging the question or downright ignoring it makes me lose trust in that player, which Joey is doing to a tee.

Can you elaborate because I haven't dodged anything voluntarily in this game but like awoo's questions once or twice and I went back on them

You dodged my questions. Well, questions 1 and 2 anyway.

Somehow I am starting to lean that GL might be the best flip, somehow. My guts says both titus/nEE are town meh

I saw this, and now I'm curious. If you think GL is the best flip, then explain a few things.

1. For everyone voting Titus, explain why you think Titus is town.

2. For everyone voting NorwegianboyEE (like me), explain why you think Norway is town.

3. If you think GuiltyLion is the best lynch, then why aren't you voting him yourself?

I don't need to explain anything, the burden of proof is on the people pushing them

3. I forgot I revoted nEE after having unvoted for the GL replace-in, I am still very comfortable where my vote is atm

Anyway, outside of that, like I said, I'm more willing to trust people who are willing to answer my questions. Honesty is a strong policy, and so is the ability to not be stubborn. I usually would put stubborn people into a lynch pool, because they are the least likely to cooperate when it matters the most.

[PMysterious]

Jesus Christ this game

Why if you’re not voting titus or Norwegian, are you not voting titus or Norwegian

@anyone that applies to

And GL can't be scum because?

I keep feeling you're deflecting away from GL.

Considering that there are no votes on GL, maybe he considers any future vote on GL to be considered a wasted vote? It would make sense, but it still is a problem.

[PMysterious]

I'm still here, but nothing much has changed so I don't have much to say. GuiltyLion or pisskop should vote Titus so we can proceed.

I get you were on Titus' wagon, but are you sure they should directly ignore NorwegianboyEE in this case? He's also near the majority number, so saying this makes it seem like you're tunneling onto Titus, despite (at the time until Kop's vote) NorwegianboyEE having the same amount of votes as Titus.

[PMysterious]

I'm still here, but nothing much has changed so I don't have much to say. GuiltyLion or pisskop should vote Titus so we can proceed.

I get you were on Titus' wagon, but are you sure they should directly ignore NorwegianboyEE in this case? He's also near the majority number, so saying this makes it seem like you're tunneling onto Titus, despite (at the time until Kop's vote) NorwegianboyEE having the same amount of votes as Titus.

I don't understand the intent of this post. I very obviously have Titus as a scum read and NoregianboyEE as a null read. Why would I ask to have my null read lynched over my scum read?

The idea is that you're not giving them a choice. If they scum read Norwegian, let them scum read Norwegian. Saying to vote Titus gives them that lack of choice, crucial in allowing a Town to be that, a town. Maybe they have something that you weren't aware of, and you're tunneling them into a particular lynch.

If they want to vote for Titus, then I'm fine with it, but my heart is saying NorwegianboyEE is scum, so that's where I'll stick.

[PMysterious]

I'm willing to ask a similar thing. If Titus flips town, then Suji is a likely suspect. If he flips Mafia, then, I don't know what I'll do. I don't think he'll flip Mafia given the circumstances of this day, but if he does, then I'll try to keep an open mind.

I still think Norwegian was the better lynch of the three, but again, I'm fine with a Titus lynch if that's what the majority wants to do.

[PMysterious]

Titus being Mafia, I'll admit, it was an actual surprise. I wasn't sure whether to trust my gut on Titus or not, but either way, it doesn't seem to be looking good for me.

I legit thought if there was Mafia, it would either be Norwegian or Correspondence, not Titus.

Anyway, I don't have that many reads at the moment given the events, but Suji seemed like he was tunneling onto Titus, saying that the people who didn't vote yet should vote for Titus. Granted, he was right that Titus was Mafia, but I didn't like the way he went about it. It was a tunnel-visioned push at the end of the day.

I'll try to think about this game a little more before I give any reads, but I will admit that I'm not in the best of lights at the moment given how I went through the previous day.

I started playing in like springtime this year. I want to get better at the game, but it's not easy when there are personal attacks and rudeness everywhere. You can easily disagree with an opinion without it causing your blood to boil and "getting pissed". If you get so angry from mafia games then i suggest you take a break and breathe deeply in so the "otaku memers" can't hurt you anymore.

We all want to get better at Mafia, I understand your point of view on the matter. If this is the case, I'll give you the benefit of a doubt for the time being. When I was inexperienced, I also let my emotions get the better of me, and sometimes I still do. It comes with the nature of a game where you're accusing people and being accused.

[PMysterious]

@PM
You haven't said a word about my slot yet you said I was one of your recent scumread.
Considering my change of tone, the development from menalque/nEE votes and Awoo shading on my slot, t's odd to me that you have nothing to comment

Also your take on nEE's comment, I am the one who got my emotions out of control, not him.

Well, either way, emotions cause people to do things they don't tend to do.

While yes, you are one of my scumreads, it's because you dodged the questions I asked you. If you are willing to go back and answer those questions, I'll be lenient.

[PMysterious]

@PM can you link me your most recent scumgame

Honestly, my most recent scum game was years ago. I believe it was Open 700, Donner Party. I could be wrong on that, though.

[PMysterious]

Okay, so I'm wanting to say that in my defense, I had no idea it was T v S v T at least. In my mind, I wouldn't think Mafia would be dumb enough to put one of their own into the lynch pool on Day 2. And on top of that, I did not see anything that made Titus look more scummy than Norwegian on that day.

I admit to making a comment on Day 1 when it came to a lynch, but that was because I felt like I was going through deja vu. I wish to bring up a game that just recently finished, Electronic Music Mafia. (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80934)

Look through the first ten pages to get my point. And get this, the exact same thing happened here (outside of Mutant not voting himself). The person that ended up getting quickhammered was Town. At the time, I couldn't say this, but when I saw that the quicklynch happened, I knew directly after the hammer that Mutant was town. I said that because at the time, it's how I felt, and it turns out I was right. Another thing that was interesting was that in both games, at least one mafia was on the wagon leading towards the lynch. I didn't know Titus and Robb were Mafia at the time, but the fact remains that at least one has been there.

Another thing, both games required a co-moderator at some point to take over. Honestly, this just feels too convenient to be the case, and in fact, I could be wrong about Norwegian being scum, but at this point, the similarities are there, so take them how you will.

Yes, my ISO is weak, but when it comes to posting, I'm not the best at jumping to conclusions. Whenever I do, I'm usually wrong or I'm going about it the wrong way. What makes sense to me might not make sense to someone else, and I'm okay with that notion. My defense is that I got a case of deja vu and the quickhammer looked scummy to me. The reason I was fine with a Titus lynch, is because I am not good at convincing people by myself.

[PMysterious]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Still not sure what your deal was with joey and answering questions, you wanna talk about that? Like has it ever occurred to you that a mafia could answer one of your questions?

Well, considering what happened in the past games, yes. It is possible, but I focused my gameplay on trust, which came to bite me in the end. So, I didn't think about that initially. Now that you mention it, I should be more wary about my questions. I wanted to trust Joey, which is why I asked those questions in the first place. I will admit, it wasn't the smartest idea, but it was an idea nonetheless.

[PMysterious]

Quick update for now.

Mod: I'll be V/LA until Friday evening.

Noted

[PMysterious]

Well, I'm dead. Well, sorry to say, but you did not kill Mafia.

If you want my honest thoughts, I have no idea on the Day 2. It could be all scum, 2 scum 1 town, or 1 scum 2 town.

My prediction for Day 4 is that they are going to throw in all Town, since the numbers for scum are not in their favor. If they throw in one of their own again, I will be amazed not only at how courageous they are, but also how stupid their actions are.

I wish I could be of more help, but since I am V/LA, I wasn't able to get on in time before the hammer dropped. Best of luck to the Town.