Open 767: Nomination Mafia [Day 7]

[Joey_]

Meow

[Joey_]

HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS GAME?

Trick mefias & lynch mefias

[Joey_]

why me

[Joey_]

you are that type uh

[Joey_]

you are that type uh

Yup, i am the

T O W N

type, and i see why i may have ruffied your feathers considering im about to stomp.

kitties aint got no feathers

[Joey_]

Why would Titus and Dongo vote to lynch the cute cat Joey? Just why? :c

IKR I am a victim :c

[Joey_]

@Titus&PK: Mutant's read is way too abysmal to come from scum

[Joey_]

all i gor was a crappy alignment.

A large majority of people prefer playing as town. So it's statistically likely that you too prefer playing town. Hence, if you're saying you think your alignment is crappy, you're admitting that you are mafia?

VOTE: pisskop

This needs votes, it's false, it's a sheepvote in RVS, it's tryhard, and its trying to blend in.

To actually make content and explain my read, i agree its a tryhard and its one of the reason why I dont think it comes from mefias
Its not a sheepvote in RVS as much as he had a genuine - and unique - rationale behind voting you

I am curious tho. Your comment implies that you think sheeping in RVS deserves a vote in some ways, yet you never mentioned the actual RVS sheep on my slot. Thats not very coherent of you :/

[Joey_]

More like how do mafia win the game when im town

VOTE: Joey

You rolled scum, its nothing personal.

you are that type uh

Yup, i am the

T O W N

type, and i see why i may have ruffied your feathers considering im about to stomp.

@PK: I am pretty sure this feels much more the "i am quirky, i am town" than what mutant did

vote it with us, and see what comes.

Ill pass but ty

[Joey_]

Pk, is Joey scum or derp town? The pain meds are fogging me.

Implying I am "derp" is still shading and discrediting my slot, so why do you scumread mutant's post

[Joey_]

Pk, is Joey scum or derp town? The pain meds are fogging me.

Implying I am "derp" is still shading and discrediting my slot, so why do you scumread mutant's post

You don't have any direct relation to post 36?

What do you mean by direct relation?

[Joey_]

Pk, is Joey scum or derp town? The pain meds are fogging me.

Implying I am "derp" is still shading and discrediting my slot, so why do you scumread mutant's post

You don't have any direct relation to post 36?

What do you mean by direct relation?

Scumreading 36 has nothing to do with you? 36 is just scummy.

Scum or deep town comes from your defense of mutant generally

Which is exactly why I asked. I assumed you are saying that my "defense" of mutant's 36's is wrong/bad/garbo like you said, thus I wanted to understand your own read since you seems so critique of my take on it

36 is a joke vote, still in rvs. People that seem to be wagoning him based on that dont should reconsider.

Didn't read it as a joke tbh, more like just tryharding and reaching, but I also think its a naive read that rarely come from mefias so early on, shrugs

[Joey_]

Mutant's and pk's answers are okay imo so I am not thinking any of them is particularily mefia-y. Other than that, i wish afk's would come and pot because, like dang said, it really doesn't feel like a 11p game

[Joey_]

Two players have not picked up their role PMs. I'll wait for (expired on 2019-09-29 13:06:19) before finding replacements.

Replacing Arcfield.

Replacing Kokichi Oma.

:c

[Joey_]

Kinda doubt that joey and Titus are the same alignment

What about the exchange is SvsT?

Why can't we be both town?

[Joey_]

I just realized that this is L-! and not every slot even posted yet so unvote, this is silly

[Joey_]

Why can't we be both town?

Do you think titus is town?

She's being sloppy so yes, most likely she's town

[Joey_]

@Creature: you said you wouldn't flake, so are you going to start doing something? Nothing you said was game related so far

[Joey_]

I think I'm alright with mutantdevle going, but obviously wait a little.

FTR I don't consider this game related since it's an extremely non-conmittal/neutral stance

[Joey_]

@Awoo

Who you thinking is mefia? If you assume mutant is mefia, who did team told with him?

[Joey_]

This wagon is honestly ridiculous. I'm genuinely surprised that it's got this far.

If you want people to move their votes then you should make content.

Whats your reads?

[Joey_]

VOTE: Menalque

[Joey_]

@Awoo

Who you thinking is mefia? If you assume mutant is mefia, who did team told with him?

Ftr I don't plan on finding mutant's partners in the view of "who are mutant's partners" unless I see a red flip.

I mean, you seems pretty adamant about that read, voting someone to L-1 as your first post in the game with a semi-case + you refuse to unvote

When I have this much of a strong read, I do try to read for mefias partners considering its very very early game and there's isnt much content in play thus it would be even easier to see scum buddy pattern.

So you think he's being bussed or voted by town?

[Joey_]

Was initially reading pk v mutant as SvS and I still think it maybe could be

I don't see how you could have the perspective that this is SvS. Unless you have a really good explanation for why you think that then if pisskop is town you are certainly scum.

This just seems like the kind of thing you'd say to set up an eventual lynch of both of us.

Lynching both people in an SvS would require one of them to flip S... ...is this a slip or nah?

I am not mutant's attorney but this is a strech: its easy to also read as "set up an eventual lynch of both of us

individually

'' as in shading both slots at the same time.
Also even from mutant's pov (assuming town), pk could flip scum and it would incriminates him from someone claiming a SvsS read

[Joey_]

VOTE: Menalque

So you think that both pisskop and I are town?

What does my vote has to do with my read on both of you?

Also I said I didn't find anyone particularly mefia-y but I am being cautious. I think the case on you is terrible and people are already getting biased towards your answers (Awoo)

[Joey_]

BTW I will be honest considering mutant is L-1 but IMO his responses are pretty much textbook town as far as I am concerned but YMMV

Awoo is also pretty blatant town

[Joey_]

VOTE: Menalque

So you think that both pisskop and I are town?

What does my vote has to do with my read on both of you?

Also I said I didn't find anyone particularly mefia-y but I am being cautious. I think the case on you is terrible and people are already getting biased towards your answers (Awoo)

The subtext of my post about Menalque was that if both pisskop and I are town then his stance on the situation being SvS makes it incredibly likely that he himself is scum. You voted for him after that so I assumed that meant that you agreed with that assessment and placing a vote from the perspective of reading myself and pisskop as town.

Joey talk to me about why mutant is textbook town.

Mutant tell me why you are town in short easy to read sentences. Keep in mind that I have trouble understanding words with more then 3 syllables.

@Mutant can you link me a scum game of yours

@Awoo: I am in class/lazy and I dont really want to deal w/ the site lag but basically, I don't read any agenda in mutant's posts as in, scum agenda. His reaction and posts is basically how I expect town to react from a push like that, again YMMV

What part of Menalque 182 did you mirror?

@Menalque: Can you explain further? You think Mutant and I are SvsS?

[Joey_]

Joey, who is scum & y?

Probably a melange of an early townread wolf + 1/2 irrelevant slots who either posted or are yet to. I townlean most active players

[Joey_]

Joey, who is scum & y?

Considering I found you as town pretty fast, why wouldn't consider I am also correct on mutant?

Why do you ask me specifically about my reads? You implied earlier that you agreed with menalque post which included a part where he mentionned I was scum. Do you share that read?

[Joey_]

Yeah Joey's acting like an attorney here. It's frankly not helpful. If Joey's town, he's blocking us from highlighting who is scum manipulating the wagon. If scum, it does the town problem plus encourages mutant to AtE pointlessly.

I am only actively trying to attack the posts I disagree with because he's L-1 and I feel the reads on him are biased.

[Joey_]

I think Menalque randed scum this game D:

Based on ruby? I can see that but you’re wrong this time

You are ruby?

[Joey_]

I think Menalque randed scum this game D:

Based on ruby? I can see that but you’re wrong this time

VOTE: Jigglypuff

Creature is also very probably town

[Joey_]

@Creature: you said you wouldn't flake, so are you going to start doing something? Nothing you said was game related so far

Blame the fucking site, it takes 5+ minutes to load a fucking page

I like this Creature reply

Its silly but I agree, seems out of character from a scum creature

[Joey_]

I just skimmed mutant's last scum game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=30609

And honestly his posts are significantly different than his posts in this game. Inb4 I am wrong and I look silly post game but, tone reading is basically one of my strength (and weakness) and mutant post's as scum are unsubstantial, shows no emotions (classic s tell) and he's seen constantly doubting himself & taking stances meant for posturizing (like half reads, non-comital stuff, asking himself questions etc). Also, in his scum posts, its very obvious that he's shading people left and right which is scum agenda.

Mutant is obviously someone who can express himself very well which offer some sort of distance from his writing style and his emotions. In this game tho, the way he showed emotions was when he cranked his own posts when he felt pressure, which he recognized himself. His walls this game imo almost never showed agenda; everytime he outed a read he nuanced it and, irrc, didn't discredit someone for the sake of discrediting (like he did as scum).

Spoiler: Exemples of his scum shades

"are you claiming that your role enables you to unlock people's 2nd role PM, aka their quest PM? Because the quest flavour is what is listen as 2nd for me.

Or are you just being dumb

and actually mean this"

His wording is non-comital he's offering an "out" to whoever hes investigating, which is a read that comes off as non-agressive since being dumb is NA

"Oof varsoon. Are you going to be posting like that all game? Gotta be honest here I but I found your post just a little irritating. My biggest gripe is how you criticise a lot of people for doing NAI stuff and fluff posts yet a large part of your post has a lot of fluffy stuff in it. Like, if your post is THAT large, and you expect people to actually read it, surely you'd keep your own fluff to a minimum?"

His wording is non-comital, trying not to comes off as having a strong read. That's probably his worse post that I skim

"I can't help but feel there are slight undertones of someone who doesn't want to be investigated here. Do millers usually claim early in the game? I don't have much experience with them."

His wording is non-comital and his read is implied. After outing his read, he's admitting mechanic ignorance which decrease the tone of his read yet still shades a slot

Spoiler: His shades/answers this game

"A large majority of people prefer playing as town. So it's statistically likely that you too prefer playing town. Hence, if you're saying you think your alignment is crappy, you're admitting that you are mafia?
VOTE: pisskop"

Committal wording, he's not using wording where he's 2nd guessing himself, he's offering no out

"this is a pretty strong conclusion to come to. So I must ask how serious this conclusion is? It seems odd to me that anyone could be so closed-minded this early into the game."

Implied read using words that are NAI and he's offering an out "early game". This fits his sucm posting but the wording is much different IMO. He's not using 2nd guessing wording and close-minded is much less discrediting of someone's character than "dumb" is

"Also, I'd like you to justify your statements that I'm A) Tryharding and B) trying to blend in. Those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but they are pretty damn close."

Non-comittal wording, implied read and you can argue he's offering an out. Again this could fit his scum posting but I feel the wording/tone is much different

"Your issue is that you're treating my vote as RVS. I've already explained that it was not an RVS vote. It was a calculated and intentional vote albeit with reasons I didn't genuinely believe - this had the sole intention of generating content. Until that point nobody had said anything meaningful.
Why does making an early vote that uses effort and logic instead of just near randomness make me scum? It shows an element of tryharding, sure. But what about that is inherently scummy?"

Here he is answering a post shading him, but not once did he shade or imply a read toward that person in any way, there's no scum agenda and he's engaging the content of the post. IMO, if he was scum w/ the meta from the linked game, he probably would've sliped a few shading comments in there

"You're saying a lot of things about me here that I agree with yet I still don't understand how you come to the conclusion I am scum. Yes I took issue with the position in the game (in that nothing of substance was being said). Yes I am incredibly self-aware. Yes I have primarily a logical approach to things. And yes I was trying to be useful and proactive. So what I don't understand is why all of those things are bad? Or at the very least, why you think they are bad? I consider all of those traits to be positive, or at the very least neutral, so the only reason I can see that you'd suspect me for displaying them is if you think I'm faking them. Until your most recent posts, it really did not seem like that was what you were accusing me of. So am I right in saying that the reason you are currently scum reading me is because you think my blatant display of those traits is me faking and overselling them?"

Same as above

"I don't see what town motivation there is to purposely stunt my ability to read you."

This is his first kinda shade towards pk after like 2 wall posts and a half which shows town POV because he's saying he's having a hard time reading PK, its coherent with someone who just had a huge conversation and didn't imply a read on them.

Its pretty blatant this is mutant's town game

[Joey_]

Jeez fucking chris EE im pissed

[Joey_]

He declared intent 6-7 hours ago, mutant not having posted inside that window, I wouldn't mind roping them for that

[Joey_]

That was also my problem with joey, he wasn't PUSHING anyone, he was just weirdly defending!!!

Early game town casing more than scum casing is very common, plus someone I townread was at L-1 so there wasn't much more urgent than trying to derail the lynch

[Joey_]

That was also my problem with joey, he wasn't PUSHING anyone, he was just weirdly defending!!!

Early game town casing more than scum casing is very common, plus someone I townread was at L-1 so there wasn't much more urgent than trying to derail the lynch

And town casing felt like the better play (which I did, too late tho) than scum casing someone else

[Joey_]

1: Titus's analysis of Mutant's reads from post 194 to post 203.

Really? That's what made you change your mind??? Titus's comments about me there were pedantic and blatantly biased and that's what made you change your mind?? C'mon Norwegianboy you're better than that.

I just realized that I am un-nightkillable and I have never been lynched as town so good luck mefias

[Joey_]

1: Titus's analysis of Mutant's reads from post 194 to post 203.

Really? That's what made you change your mind??? Titus's comments about me there were pedantic and blatantly biased and that's what made you change your mind?? C'mon Norwegianboy you're better than that.

I just realized that I am un-nightkillable and I have never been lynched as town so good luck mefias

The quote is a browser formatting error; it quote stuff when I click on posts for no reasons

[Joey_]

IMO we should flip correspondence, i dont expect any good content coming from them

[Joey_]

Nah, we get da replacements first.

Replacements? There isn't any in the nominated

[Joey_]

Dear Phillippa,

Lawrence and I have returned from our African adventure, and I cannot wait to see you and the children! There is something primal and refreshing about the grasslands and veldts of the Serengetti, you should really take a safari there some time. Lions in the London Menagerie are one thing, but seeing them chase down a gazelle in the wild is, dare I say, exhilarating! It may be unseemly of me to go on so about such a brutish diversion, but the experience was quite incomparable.

I see in my time away, we have had a number of new families move in to the village. I am simply starved for good gossip, my dear, you must tell me all about them. I did note one altercation between the new arrivals as our carriage rolled through town, and it seemed that an uncouth gentleman of ill-aspect was accosting another gentleman of who looked little better. Our coachman stopped long enough for us to overhear the exchange, and it appeared as if Mr. Mutant was raving at one Mr. Pisskop in a deranged and unjustified fashion. Indeed, it is likely enough that our forebears would have ousted the scoundrel on the spot for such behavior. Madame Titus, the new shopkeep in Town, was most perspicacious to denounce Mr. Mutant's conduct.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the other new residents, and of course, to seeing you in person.

Fondest regards,
Henrietta

Post Script:

VOTE: Mutantdevle

Dear Phillippa,

Lawrence and I have returned from our African adventure, and I cannot wait to see you and the children! There is something primal and refreshing about the grasslands and veldts of the Serengetti, you should really take a safari there some time. Lions in the London Menagerie are one thing, but seeing them chase down a gazelle in the wild is, dare I say, exhilarating! It may be unseemly of me to go on so about such a brutish diversion, but the experience was quite incomparable.

I see in my time away, we have had a number of new families move in to the village. I am simply starved for good gossip, my dear, you must tell me all about them. I did note one altercation between the new arrivals as our carriage rolled through town, and it seemed that an uncouth gentleman of ill-aspect was accosting another gentleman of who looked little better. Our coachman stopped long enough for us to overhear the exchange, and it appeared as if Mr. Mutant was raving at one Mr. Pisskop in a deranged and unjustified fashion. Indeed, it is likely enough that our forebears would have ousted the scoundrel on the spot for such behavior. Madame Titus, the new shopkeep in Town, was most perspicacious to denounce Mr. Mutant's conduct.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the other new residents, and of course, to seeing you in person.

Fondest regards,
Henrietta

Post Script:

VOTE: Mutantdevle

This is his only posts and he never came back to reconsider his vote when he was like 3th irrc. Imagine being town and entering the game, putting a wagon past the 50% mark and never coming back for days

[Joey_]

@Creature you are implying replacements are AI

[Joey_]

No, you misinterpreted my post on 339. I didn't say "get" in the sense of lynching them, but rather wait a replacement for the empty slot.

Makes more sens

[Joey_]

IMO we should flip correspondence, i dont expect any good content coming from them

This is badposting

Either they come back and provide content albeit in their own unique way

Or they don’t and we get a replacement

Either way they’re probably the laziest/worst slot to lynch of the three

I agree its def lazy

[Joey_]

I have reason to flip about anyone in this pool

Corresp.: Already explained but his vote as 3rd, never came back to 2nd guess/reread the slot he voted etc. Could very well be NAI assuming the AFK is genuine, I am okay waiting for a replacement.

Titus: I said D1 that she's playing very sloppy, I still think it's the case. I gutread her play as t but content wise I disagree with about everything she has done/said.

nEE: jeez that hammer alone makes the slot worth roping so I am probably voting there today.

[Joey_]

Why are they bad?

Because we have TvTvT wagons?

You think so? What is your poe outside the pool?

[Joey_]

What if all 3 are scum i would do that

[Joey_]

I am thinking menalque/creat/awoo are town. Rest is up in the air and i dislike nEE’s tone the most (which is regardless of his shit hammer)

[Joey_]

VOTE: nEE

[Joey_]

Also awoo lowkey scumtold but Its not that relevant to revisit that slot today

[Joey_]

Also awoo lowkey scumtold but Its not that relevant to revisit that slot today

I'd say it's at least good to document the theory given how hard awoo is defending Correspondence.

Heavy teamtelling for a v weak slot would be bad play, but yeah I am considering

[Joey_]

nEE what are your reads?

[Joey_]

im scared that nEE is town

[Joey_]

So the theory is that scum Titus nominates herself and Correspondence, encourages us to vote Correspondence as a mislynch. Then uses the nomination to townclear herself?
I could believe it tbh.
Need to see the VC. Mod plz.

Trying to engage wifom mechanics heads on is pretty silly and a waste of time

[Joey_]

Awoo what do you think of titus, PM, dong as a solve

I'm not as confident as you are on PM, but titus dong plus one is clean.

So the theory is that scum Titus nominates herself and Correspondence, encourages us to vote Correspondence as a mislynch. Then uses the nomination to townclear herself?
I could believe it tbh.
Need to see the VC. Mod plz.

Trying to engage wifom mechanics heads on is pretty silly and a waste of time

There's more evidence than just wifom at this point. Sus people like dongempire are basically confirming that theory with sketchposts like I mentioned earlier.

Also do you think I'm partners with correspondence? Kind of like how I thought you were partners with mutant? Are we trying to go zero for two?

The rationale behind your association w/ corresp doesn't come from me also, the lowkey s tell i mentionned earlier has nothing to do with your votes/associative tells

[Joey_]

I was referring to Day 1, where if you look at the ISO before the hammer on Mutant, there was no intent to hammer, whatsoever. I'm not referring to what's happening today just yet. Apologies for any confusion on this matter.

Send us message when your timezone enters day 2, okay?

you sassy

UNVOTE:

[Joey_]

Ive seen scum PM and I am thinking hes town

[Joey_]

Ive seen scum PM and I am thinking hes town

Do people tell you your reads are bad a lot?

Never post game

[Joey_]

I feel bad for the mod

[Joey_]

Honestly I don't really mind lynching either Titus or nEE; Titus is a slot i historically can't read properly and nEE voided his right to live with the hammer & their content are pretty irrelevant

@Menalque: it's pretty obvious that I am town, i wouldn't have put my cards on the table if I didn't genuinely try to save a mislynch from happening, I was that certain in my read

[Joey_]

Also that fucking 221 post took me an hour to type while I was in class, i was pissed

[Joey_]

I prefer nEE tho @awoo

[Joey_]

I also question his reason for being okay with lynch NorwegianBoyEE in post 366 considering what he said in post 228

You mightve misread 228 because in both posts, I am saying I would lynch nEE for his hammer

[Joey_]

I prefer nEE tho @awoo

That part was actually ungenuine since he was thinkig I was mefia with mutant at that time

[Joey_]

That part was actually ungenuine since he was thinkig I was mefia with mutant at that time

I misquoted 558

[Joey_]

I also question his reason for being okay with lynch NorwegianBoyEE in post 366 considering what he said in post 228

You mightve misread 228 because in both posts, I am saying I would lynch nEE for his hammer

It looks like I did. I thought you meant you wouldn't mind roping mutantdevle for not posting within the 6-7 hour window.

He declared intent 6-7 hours ago, mutant not having posted inside that window, I wouldn't mind roping them for that

This is why his hammer is shitty. He didn't wait for me to respond before hammering.

Looks like you skimmed over Mutant's content since he agreed with me very explicitly

[Joey_]

I prefer nEE tho @awoo

That part was actually ungenuine since he was thinkig I was mefia with mutant at that time

That part was actually ungenuine since he was thinkig I was mefia with mutant at that time

I misquoted 558

I misquoted #2, i suck with quotes

From suji's wall
''I did like his reluctance to hunt for partners before knowing alignment, but that's a weak reason for townreading someone. I liked his post 244 as it explained his motivations for his Day 1 play."

He said he didn't want to read for teamtell while in 244 admitted that he was reading for team all along while lying about it. Its very odd that refer to 2 posts that contradicts themselves one sentence behind the next.

[Joey_]

I think there is difference between openly speculating on partners and quietly searching. I don't see that as a contradiction at all.

How so? He wasn't quietly searching, he was convinced I was the same alignement as mutant's and he was voting mutant all day.
He lied to a direct question and tried to buddy me into getting information so his team read was made and wasn't even speculation.

What do you like about someone being reluctant about team reading?

[Joey_]

Thats basically my point

It's a contradiction if you think the read itself is scummy VS outing the reads. Your answer seems to point to the former

[Joey_]

Also I say scummy but you can replace that with unproductive aka your own words

[Joey_]

So like, he was behaving behind a team read which you seems to believe is unproductive in itself D1, yet you say you likes his post explaining his D1. IMO there's a contradiction

[Joey_]

And, again I ask, what is the motivation as scum for revealing that he was posting with an association between you and mutantdevle in his mind?

Thats wasn't my point, i was discussion your opinion, not mine.

The motivation as scum could be anything from being self-conscious, gambitting, faking town thought process etc. It happens I believe awoo is town so I am not arguing his post was scummy

[Joey_]

Yeah, I mean I'm going down the playerlist, and I don't think anyone is NOT OK with titus getting lynched today.

Awoo: voting titus

Joey_: "Honestly I don't really mind lynching either Titus or nEE" 552, but prefers nEE

Norwegian: voting titus

Guiltylion: "I'm on board with scum!Titus" 520
Creature: "I could see Titus and PM being scum together." 500
Suji: Titus at the bottom of his readslist

Menalque: voting titus

PMysterious: prefers norwegianboy, "Titus, I'm mixed on." 492, voting norwegianboy

pisskop: was voting titus, currently ???

Red is voting titus

Orange has called titus scum

Yellow is prefers norwegianboy, but doesn't object to titus

What's up with this, eh?

There could be many reasons like Menalque mentionne. Or maybe its a town pool and the lynch isn't that relevant to scum (or a S pool for the same reasons), who knows

[Joey_]

You tell me NoNK, all this talk of semantics earlier made me feel really lethargic about the game.

Who's that? Also are you talking about Suji's & I discussion earlier?

[Joey_]

@nEE

You tell me NoNK, all this talk of semantics earlier made me feel really lethargic about the game.

Who's that?

Also are you talking about Suji's & I discussion earlier?

[Joey_]

@nEE

You tell me NoNK, all this talk of semantics earlier made me feel really lethargic about the game.

Who's that?

Also are you talking about Suji's & I discussion earlier?

I thought that seemed obvious. Yes.

If i asked then it wasn't. Also it was basically a few posts and more than anything that came out in the last fews days. So you more feel lethargic about a game with a few light semantic posts vs a game w/ no posting when you are nominee

Fun stuff

[Joey_]

Or, I keep notes in a word document and know basic bb code.

lol rekt @menalque

[Joey_]

Or, I keep notes in a word document and know basic bb code.

okay, and if you flip green I'll apologise

I'll admit idk you so maybe you would do this

but I don't think most people would read through the game on their phone while simultaneously writing their notes into a word doc on their computer

I think they'd just wait to get internet back and do it on the computer

Some people who likes to replace-in does, its often people who enjoy reading through a lot of content. I personally think you are off mark and diggin the wrong hole, you should investigate his content not the posting and whatnot. He could easily lie in his answers if he was mafia, so using his answers to try to prove he lied is uh.. counter productive.

[Joey_]

VOTE: nEE

[Joey_]

Gotta agree with joey on this one, I'm not following this X-files episode

I think the best move is to watch it develop in silence. Obviously your response is a normal part of the game, but I was willing to let menal hold that position and see how he pushed it later. i think its trying to shoehorn in SRs tobe honest.

Yes but my #45 also applies here

[Joey_]

Also let's note that part of the reason that titus is so widely scum read is because a consensus was forming on the AFK slot.

And its a bullshit rhetoric made from a slot inside the pool aka with something to gain

[Joey_]

VC 2.3:

Titus (3)	Awoo 380, Menalque 391, NorwegianboyEE 479
NorwegianboyEE (1)	PMysterious, 492
Correspondence (1)	Titus 354
Not Voting (5)	pisskop 484, Joey_ 485, Creature, Dongempire, Correspondence

This but +me voting nEE

[Joey_]

I do think it's weird how hard it's proving to lynch Titus

BTW I can spin that logic to nEE about how hard its to flip a scum-claimed slot who openwolfed d1

[Joey_]

Also let's note that part of the reason that titus is so widely scum read is because a consensus was forming on the AFK slot.

And its a bullshit rhetoric made from a slot inside the pool aka with something to gain

You mean me, in post 380?

Yes, but I recalled nEE actively pushing the same narrative and I focused more on nominees today

[Joey_]

Or, I keep notes in a word document and know basic bb code.

okay, and if you flip green I'll apologise

I'll admit idk you so maybe you would do this

but I don't think most people would read through the game on their phone while simultaneously writing their notes into a word doc on their computer

I think they'd just wait to get internet back and do it on the computer

Some people who likes to replace-in does, its often people who enjoy reading through a lot of content. I personally think you are off mark and diggin the wrong hole, you should investigate his content not the posting and whatnot. He could easily lie in his answers if he was mafia, so using his answers to try to prove he lied is uh.. counter productive.

I mean his content isn't great but why should I limit myself to that?

it's p simple

either you believe that suji read through the game on his phone while writing up a readslist in a word document with BBcode correctly formulated all at the same time and in an hour and a half of solid work

or

you believe that that's a fucking mental thing for someone to do, suji lied about where his reads were at but had to give them anyway because he was being asked to, and then had to come up with justifications later that fit a readslist that was highly convenient for where the professed reads of others were at the time

Dude he answered his BB post in the same minute you questionned them. As scum,

I know BB code

but that answer wouldn't even be in the possible world of answers I would think about, let alone post it in < 1 min. So It's pretty obvious the guy has been doing some BB work either this game or another game to come up with such an answer as fast as he did, IMO.

So he could lie or not, I can't tell and it's not very useful.

[Joey_]

Joey you scumread me, i get it. But what do you think about Titus? Town? Scum? Null?

Prob town but I historically has been much more wrong on her than anything

[Joey_]

I do think it's weird how hard it's proving to lynch Titus

BTW I can spin that logic to nEE about how hard its to flip a scum-claimed slot who openwolfed d1

well, that's simple

Norwegian would be a hell of a lot easier to lynch tomorrow than Titus

like, if this is Titus!sucm, and I'm feeling pretty good that it is, then she's gonna be a fucking nightmare to do if she's not in the lynchpool most probably

if we're wrong on Titus/(PM, suji) Norway becomes a good option to lynch before lylo (assuming 3 scum this game)

Okay and imagine flipping a town titus on lynchpool day, pretty fucking bad uh?

[Joey_]

Flipping a slot who objectively anti-towned and, imo, has one of the worst iso on the whole table on lynchpool day is a GAIN for town because that slot wouldve been pushed regardless if pool day or not

[Joey_]

@joey why do you think I wanted to speak to suji live rather than when he was able to go and think about shit? to see what his natural, unfiltered responses were

Okay and I am telling you his bb answer was pretty darn pristine timing wise

[Joey_]

why are you so keen to defend this slot when you're saying at the same time that your reads have "historically [have] been much more wrong on her than anything"

Its not defending as much as a pool and I am open about my bias and bad history with her so everyone knows where my reads are coming from, its nowhere as clean cut as my mutant's read was. Also if you consider pushing nEE as defending Titus then thats you making mental shortcuts about the game, not me associative telling with titus

[Joey_]

@joey why do you think I wanted to speak to suji live rather than when he was able to go and think about shit? to see what his natural, unfiltered responses were

Okay and I am telling you his bb answer was pretty darn pristine timing wise

okay, what's the alternative answer if you're scum there?

Thats a fun question because I dont even think suji would've let himself be put in this situation as scum for many reasons.

Its very obvious that your line of questioning was meant to make a case or a point across yet he answered every single one of them and he is not in the nominees (therefore there's nothing to lose short term by not answering). He could've went AFK between any of your answers & he could've deflected (which scum does, he didn't) etc.

He didn't need to put himself in a way where he gave info that could be used objectively against him and put him in a bad situation, thats what town does for town gain, not what scum does IMO. There wasn't any alternative answers because you wouldn't get to ask that question if he already hadn't towned enough to give you infos

[Joey_]

Flipping a slot who objectively anti-towned and, imo, has one of the worst iso on the whole table on lynchpool day is a GAIN for town because that slot wouldve been pushed regardless if pool day or not

Titus objectively antitowned by burying mutant, and has a pretty terrible iso, even into day 2.

No offense but "town titus" has been exceedingly useless. Join date and reputation don't make you a valuable player.

Hm, she didn't anti-town, she just outed her reads who ended up wrong just like most of the table. Burying scum from your pov isn't that anti-town and it was on the verge of the lynch, so she had town behind her back and mutant was pretty much the designated lynch.

It's true titus has been pretty bad since d2 (and imo d1 was sloppy af). That doesn't make her scum tho. What is the scum agenda in being useless in a lynchpool?

BTw, you have been biased towards your reads since the very beginning with the latest post saying "Titus sounds like giving up scum" which comes from someone trying to confirm their POV.

[Joey_]

why, if it's obvious that's the route I'm going down, doesn't scum just role with it and try to beat me at my own game?

if you're scum and you try to avoid/deflect/afk that shit and you're already vulnerable (which he was) then there's very little incentive not to try and play along because if it goes well it might shake the SR on you, and if you fuck it then hey, you were already being SR

you're approaching that in a really surface level way

Thats a good take. Do you feel like suji beat you at your own game? Also your whole push is not even trying to determine Suji's alignement, but his posting; you assume that if he lied about his posting and he's mafia. The thing is, he could also very well have posted the exact way he said he did and still be scum.

That being said, IMO is answer is, again, unbelievable from someone not already using BB for mafia read stuff since again. I doubt he would've think about it, even dozen of minutes prior of outing that.

Like his answer is basically the golden ratio of "logical enough to make sens as an answer" & "out there enough that scum wouldn't think about it".

"you're approaching that in a really surface level way" and you are making a cake out of sand

[Joey_]

you pushing Norway right as we're trying to build consensus around getting votes on Titus is almost by definition a defense of Titus

Yea, you could say that since Lynching titus and Lynching nEE today are mutually exclusive

[Joey_]

I mean, you have this read because his read list is very "convenient" aka common & not unique in anyway, correct?
From the moment you saw his list, you basically already believed he was mafia and tried to confirm that by questioning him; your whole line of questioning is biased and your conclusion too.
I understand why having a convenient read list can be scummy, but why is it not possible it's just coming from town ? You know a lot of people share this list, so I am assuming a lot of town too, so why not another townie, because of a replace in?

I don't really have any answers to those questions but I am just trying to make you realize the way you approached his posts.

"if he lied about his having a written out readslist developed when he said he did, and actually he just had some reads from skimming the last few pages and reading the overall state -- that he then later fleshed out and came up with reasons for -- I'm saying that's scum indicative"

I understand your rationale and suji could be mafia, I just think his answers were pretty good and made sens from a town pov, thats all.

"The thing is, he could also very well have posted the exact way he said he did and still be scum."

It's rhetoric but basically assomption A being true (his read list rdy or something) doesn't make assomption B true (his alignement). Like, he could've lied or exaggerated the reality for town purposes rather than scum ones etc. Basically I am saying that its not a good way to find his alignement

[Joey_]

Hm, she didn't anti-town, she just outed her reads who ended up wrong just like most of the table. Burying scum from your pov isn't that anti-town and it was on the verge of the lynch, so she had town behind her back and mutant was pretty much the designated lynch.

It's true titus has been pretty bad since d2 (and imo d1 was sloppy af). That doesn't make her scum tho. What is the scum agenda in being useless in a lynchpool?

BTw, you have been biased towards your reads since the very beginning with the latest post saying "Titus sounds like giving up scum" which comes from someone trying to confirm their POV.

I'll get to what I'm getting at. We go into the day. Titus is supposed to be the strongest person in the lynch pool, gets self nominated as scum. Norwegianboy just mishammered, and correspondence is afk. EZ mislynches in the bag, free towncred incoming.

Things don't go as planned, no one buys the correspondence thing, and norwegianboy doesn't catch on either. Momentum swings to titus. Scum partners (in union with the rest of the gmae) start calling titus scum and get ready for the bus. Titus as scum with daychat knows she's being bussed, and

starts playing the giving up routine instead of actually fighting like mutant did

. Lines up, doesn't it? And

it's not too crazy of a story

. Doesn't rely on specific associations with any hypothetical partners, and it explains her current behaviour.

What does titus have to do to say she's been set up? She needs to call me scum

.

About mutant;
You didn't unvote nor openly reconsider your read on them when they were "actually fighting" which I pointed as "textbook town, which is how I expect town to react".
Now you are trying to tell me that Titus is, in part, scummy because she is not acting like mutant did when pushed? How exactly do you even expect town from reacting to a push?

About titus story;
Its moon logic & the number of assomptions and leap of faith you need to make in order for that story to make sens is staggering; every assomptions you make next is made to confirm the former.

About the set up;
I dont even recall her calling you scum or a set up

[Joey_]

NGL joey, if I'm wrong somewhere and suji flips scum you're looking

real

good for partners right about now

the fact that you seem really keen to encourage thinking about what might be possible regarding suji rather than what's likely is a big fat scumping for me

Thats because we dont approach the game the same way; this is not a game about probabilities.

Also If i am so invested in trying to encourage you to healthy thinking and to unknots your bias, it's because I am town and I want you on the same page as I am

[Joey_]

Thats pretty silly of you and the buddy theory on me was also mentioned concerning mutant, yet I am acting the same way when I believe someone is being unjustly scumread

[Joey_]

I did skim and its funny because he mentioned Occam's Razor (which I am a big fan of in mafia) and explains it correctly yet arrives at the wrong conclusion IMO.

Occam says that the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.
Yet,

the simplest answer in itself is not necessarily the most probable one

in a given scenario, it only means it requires less assomptions. You can have many simple answers available for a single problem.

He also says that town's job is to push a probable narrative, meh. I think that how mediocre players and mediocre town sees the game, which explains why 85%+ of mafia players are pretty darn unremarkable and have no consistency.

Probability has its uses but if you never look past it, then you are merely a coin flip with no agency.
What the guy also forgets is that probability is also used by scum at lot; since its objective info, is mostly NAI and anyone can easily push an argument with probabilities backing them up.


"Apply Occam's Razor
Use it often. Point out how unlikely combinations are. Point out how many assumptions (especially flawed ones) a theory relies on. Keeping things simple is a guideline I cannot stress the importance of enough in terms of possibilities versus probabilities.

Most remote possibilities flagrantly violate Occam's Razor; most probabilities use Occam's Razor.

"

Thats literraly what I have been doing with you and awoo so it's very obvious that I am applying it. The bolded part is an interpretation of the author and not actually coming from Occam, but it's a general rule of thumb.


Now if you want to apply Occam's to your read:
You would need to assume
- Suji is mafia (lower distribution than mafia)
- Suji lied about having his read list ready
- Suji skimmed or something,
- Suji blabla & i dont remember all your rationale but basically, theres much more than 3 assomptions, correct?

My read:
- Suji is town (more likely distribution of town)
- Suji said the truth

[Joey_]

@Manalque FTR i see I am not the only one who disagree with her

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=71062

[Joey_]

It's so hard to interact with you joey, you seem more focused on pointing out contradictions then engaging.

Of course I'm contradicting myself when I say titus isn't fighting and mutant was fighting and I both called them scum, it's called learning. And how come every time I have an idea it's just bias and moon logic? At least I'm taking stances instead of just randomly defending everybody. I am literally trying to ask you why I should scumread norwegianboy and you skip that post entirely and just poke holes in me. I am aware that I may have "bias", hint, I'm prone to it, and why won't you help me by talking about norwegianboy? DEFEND YOUR OFFENSIVE STANCE!!! I don't give a h*ck about who you're defending if you won't show or at least explain to me the alternative. Otherwise it just looks like you're scum defending VT's for towncred and to get on everybody's good side and that's your whole strategy.

I don't scumread you for any of this. I'm just venting frustration. Maybe I should, but I'm biased towards you being town.

True, honestly I am reacting pretty hard to my ADHD med today and I feel like I am being overly rational/in my head about all of this. I skipped your nEE post because I was answering the other posts.

I am a tone reader; nEE tone is pretty crap, all his posts are convenient and underwhelming, not a single piece of content feels like coming from a genuine and unique thought process. His posts feels like rehearsed dialogue, there's just nothing of value in their posts. So out of all the 3 slots in the pool, nEE has my vote + his abysmal hammer

[Joey_]

Okay, your post about the razor makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to figure things out, I've been trying to figure out why people have been behaving a particular way, and that's apparently wrong because it causes assumptions.

Okay....

.... so how do you play mafia then if you can't figure things out

You can. Like you can easily assume that nEE lack of town value in all their posts is better explained by a scum alignement than a town alignement playing badly/purposefully scummy/null.

Or you can also see that their hammer is again, much better explained by them pursuing scum agenda than anything else; them being town & voting too fast, or being awkward or blabla

[Joey_]

Also personnal take; when I make a shit hammer I own up to it and feels really bad for town.

Imagine being town and hammering 6-7 hours before the guy posted + A slot making a huge case minutes after your hammer.. and not showing even once in their post any sign that they are sorry/feel bad/culpability.

Also Norwegianboy you haven't explained why you decided to only wait 7 hours between stating intent and then hammering.

Alright i will admit that i should have waited longer.
But i will mention that i saw you online 3-4 hours after i placed the vote, and you didn't comment anything.

Thats her only post ever admitting she made an error; she admits on the timing of her hammer, not the read itself which is very odd because I would assure you that town would be much more mortified about hammering town (consequence of their actions) than hammering too fast (process of their actions). You need to understand that it's been pages and hours that mutant was pretty much confirmed town in twilight when she said that.

I sort of expected this...
Can nominated players vote for other nominated players?

Her reaction after seeing the flip, still not going back on her behavior, only implying that she was going to be scumread for it, meh

________________________

That being said, on a reread she made a few good posts like 286 but eh

[Joey_]

Do you think that outside of my meme logic titus could be mafia y/n

Maybe

I won't post anymore for the night, soz to everyone who has to read me

[Joey_]

@nEE I am a sucker for ate & your 677 most likely comes from town. Thing is, I still think you deserve the rope considering the pool

[Joey_]

We need some more titus votes HERE
We need some more titus votes HERE
There’s not enough votes and too many many scum
There’s not enough votes and too many many scum


Too many scum (we need some more votes in here), Skepta (2019)

Make an actual case, be it a line or two but try to formulate something because appealing for votes for the sake of it is not productive

[Joey_]

He has a point though. With the exception of literally the last two people who posted, everyone else has called titus scum. More people ought to put their money where their mouth is, or if they've changed their mind, make it obvious.

Then this is a good point to start; incoherent is a s tell and you are implying most ppl are being incoherent with their outed read on Titus and their lack of vote on her, shrugs

[Joey_]

Incoherence*

[Joey_]

Spoiler: I disagree with 697.

Incoherence between ideas/behavior is a clue that their thought process is not genuine & more superficial than they want you to believe. Basically they often have to go "bottom-up"

Town looks incoherent but their processes "does exists" they just aren't very clear, its ''top-down'' so you can always investigate the thought process

@Titus; Why do you scumread nEE?

[Joey_]

Somehow I am starting to lean that GL might be the best flip, somehow. My guts says both titus/nEE are town meh

[Joey_]

I am definitely townreading scum tho because 3 scums can't fit my reads

[Joey_]

Somehow I am starting to lean that GL might be the best flip, somehow. My guts says both titus/nEE are town meh

The vote is being pushed away from her and onto me, can’t you see it?

can you be a bit more explicit about who is doing the pushing and what you think their alignments are? vague generalities like this without naming names are bad

Well Joey's been pushing for me and now he seems to think me and Titus are town and you might be scum. So if Titus is scum then obviously i'd be suspicious of him.

This is a misrep, i said better flip considering the nEE/Titus might be town, I didn't say he might be scum

[Joey_]

Somehow I am starting to lean that GL might be the best flip, somehow. My guts says both titus/nEE are town meh

I saw this, and now I'm curious. If you think GL is the best flip, then explain a few things.

1. For everyone voting Titus, explain why you think Titus is town.

2. For everyone voting NorwegianboyEE (like me), explain why you think Norway is town.

3. If you think GuiltyLion is the best lynch, then why aren't you voting him yourself?

I don't need to explain anything, the burden of proof is on the people pushing them

3. I forgot I revoted nEE after having unvoted for the GL replace-in, I am still very comfortable where my vote is atm

[Joey_]

Yea I am available for the next hour or so, gimme 5 min i am making lunch

[Joey_]

nEE is playing very sneakily IMO like you just said.

When he's pushed, he's playing the victim and seamlessly dropping meta left and right (which IMO I associate more w/ town than scum)
Otherwise he's pushing narrative and is being incoherent. On the top of my head, he was flipping between voting/fosing corresp and titus and posted a very open buddy attempt to Titus. Then, once the table was starting to flip on Titus, he questioned Titus on her constant change of votes or whatnot (shading someone who has been doing the same thing you did).

Plus, after menalque just recently implied that I could be associated with Titus if she fliped red, nEE seemingly misrep me and cite the same associative. Thing is, he has been appealing to me pretty hard since the beginning of D2 as if I was town, nothing else. He also did townread (or think Titus was town) at some point yet somehow thinks I would be mafia If i was misreading her (considering Id be scum for defending her as scum)

Take that with a grain of salt because I didn't reread anything and this is on top of my head

[Joey_]

he kind of just goes along with common opinions / shading PM and titus and whoever else are the popular scumreads.

Agreed, like I said yday, he never produced any unique/genuine content himself

[Joey_]

About the whole setup, I am mitigated.
I dont recall her being in the top 2-3 lynches d1, so that would be obviously drawing attention to the slot and there's known policy lynchers in this site, it would be risky & no offense but I don't think she's strong enough of a slot to give her this much autonomy as scum strat. So if she scum, IMO it's more simple (& likely IMO) that it was a simple blunder and maybe the setup was thought about AFTER the hammer, trying to capitalize on a bad situation

[Joey_]

Regardless, GL is making good content and is coherent, his tone is pretty good too.

Titus; I think he best argument in favour of her as mafia is when menalque said she fosed them instead of PM or something (that PM post actually pinged me as a textbook scumpost, but I know better when reading PM from experience). So, even if you are unsure atm, her alignement will show itself pretty clearly regardless like most decent+ players

nEE slot has just nothing going for them. I could see everything she has done coming from town.. but the hammer + the content itself makes her the weakest slot. So I think its the best slot to lynch

[Joey_]

Yeah, that's not a good thing, is it. I mean the whole "who's the designated mislynch" thing is just wifom and it can go both ways, so once you discard that, there's really not a lot left in his favor from what I see.

Okay next topic of discussion, town titus, I feel like titus play does not make sense from a scum perspective right now, the way she is pushing things that are kind of BS (something about a correspondence wagon being good for the game??? what does that even mean) and don't really make sense because she's just making enemies, making sparks fly with menalque who's as far as I know mostly townread and a prominent voice nonetheless, did you have anything else on titus on either direction? Obv the d1 titus was bad, I haven't iso'd her d2 that much, but if we're going to lynch someone for securing a mislynch, it shouldn't be titus, it should be norwegianboy for day 2 play trying to setup PM as tomorrow's mislynch, instead of titus securing the mislynch on mutant, also pushing titus agenda without actually contributing anything.

Also, is PM town? You got any thoughts on that? iirc you brought it up earlier but I'm reading PM and sure he's low charisma, but also his actions aren't really that scummy except he's lurking? Anything on the top of your head there?

PEDIT: (What you're saying is more likely about the hammer setup what I was trying to say. can you imagine putting yourself in a position to get policy lynched on purpose lolol)

Man thats a lot of questions, I will skim their iso for you

[Joey_]

My focus has barely changed today @nEE, what makes you say otherwise?

[Joey_]

You mean, switching the game's focus on you? Don't you believe town can be wrong? Also don't you believe this pool could be all town ?

[Joey_]

Pk, is Joey scum or derp town? The pain meds are fogging me.

Pk, is Joey scum or derp town? The pain meds are fogging me.

Implying I am "derp" is still shading and discrediting my slot, so why do you scumread mutant's post

You don't have any direct relation to post 36?

You claim he's bad but assume he's town blocking pressure that gets the game going because a) scum or b) you think you know so well it's not worth investigating and seeing if you're right and if we can get on the same pagr.

I'm tired but that's garbo joey.

The exact point of RVS is to use exaggerated cases to push and use the content generated to make real cases. So why isnt that happening right here? Is it because youre too busy trying to defend mutant? is it because you stepped up to the plate to stifle conversation and take away that from everyone else?

What are you talking about? I dont scumread mutant over it, so im asking you to clarify. Since you are so stubbornly not doing that, i am defending him, yes.
I'll listen to your point of view if you explain it, right now all i can gather from this is that you scumread mutant over a rvs vote, if you want me to take your side i will, provided you actually convince me on that.

I'm not sure whether dong is trying to portray himself as reasonable here or if he really is uncertain. It's not about being correct, even though I think we are. It's about using pressure to sort people and get wagons going.

Right now, there's too much emphasis on who is wrong rather than. Let's try this.

Frame? I explained what I meant by "sneakily", i wasn't merely shading you

[Joey_]

Again my broswer having issues with quoting, 766 should be quoting 765

[Joey_]

Also don't you believe this pool could be all town ?

I don't think so because nominating only town is a bad scum strategy, i'm pretty sure they included one scum in the pool and then threw me in there so they could easily generate the mislynch and then give their mafia nominee towncred. So either Titus or Guiltylion is that nominee, most likely Titus in my opinion.

Then why waste an obvious bait lynch like you on a lynchpool day when they would assume youd be lynch on a normal day? You could even argue that It would go directly to Lylo if they decided to nominate 3 towns twice n2 and n4 and you being the n3 normal lynch, up to 7 ways w/ 3 mafia alive. Don't you think it's a much better scum strat?

You see, this is moon logic countering your moon logic; you misplayed, don't try to blame mafia for being fosed/framed.

Personally having a hard time seeing titus' thought process throughought day 2, at first she TR's norwegianboy, norwegianboy says "ok lynch me", titus votes for norwegianboy. Keeps pushing unpopular things like menalque and "correspondence was a good lynch stop questioning me". Hard to call it one way or another imo?

I guess PM's alignment will become more apparant over time because I'm not really finding a lot there either. Also no idea what he's doing with those questions but I'll just let that play out whatever it is.

I did skim Titus, her d1 start has much better posts, showing much more town thought process (looks like I am copying your read but it's actually written on the notepad I was using). I think she outed a few very genuine posts like 180 & 383. My overall take is that she's playing sloppy, again more likely to come from town but i can see going both ways (again, i am not very good at reading her).

[Joey_]

Dodging the question or downright ignoring it makes me lose trust in that player, which Joey is doing to a tee.

Can you elaborate because I haven't dodged anything voluntarily in this game but like awoo's questions once or twice and I went back on them

[Joey_]

UNVOTE:

Unvoting for now because you are probably town playing really poorly, I still think tho the pool could easily be TvsTvsT. It's not as smart as you think it is to include scum in a pool like that

[Joey_]

I am not used to scumhunt in a pool containing possibly all town. It's easy to go into the fallacy where you want to assume one of them, at least, is mefia

[Joey_]

Lmao PM, that's not dodging, I just outright refuses to be held responsible in explaining nEE & Titus's alignement because people are voting them. The questions are also flawed because they could all be scum. This is me being honest, not answering doesn't mean I am being dishonest

[Joey_]

I did skim Titus, her d1 start has much better posts, showing much more town thought process (looks like I am copying your read but it's actually written on the notepad I was using). I think she outed a few very genuine posts like 180 & 383. My overall take is that she's playing sloppy, again more likely to come from town but i can see going both ways (again, i am not very good at reading her).

Why do you think 180 and 383 are genuine? They don't seem especially town to me

my main problem with Titus is 195 ("blatant AtE" - not true at all) and the combo of 198/199. I might be biased having read the game already knowing mutant's flip but those posts feel designed to make mutant look as bad as possible. plus nobody else had really been pressured/wagoned/voted at all D1 so I don't think a townie would be gunning so hard there

I did skim Titus, her d1 start has much better posts, showing much more town thought process (looks like I am copying your read but it's actually written on the notepad I was using). I think she outed a few very genuine posts like 180 & 383. My overall take is that she's playing sloppy, again more likely to come from town but i can see going both ways (again, i am not very good at reading her).

Why do you think 180 and 383 are genuine? They don't seem especially town to me

my main problem with Titus is 195 ("blatant AtE" - not true at all) and the combo of 198/199. I might be biased having read the game already knowing mutant's flip but those posts feel designed to make mutant look as bad as possible. plus nobody else had really been pressured/wagoned/voted at all D1 so I don't think a townie would be gunning so hard there

Not gonna lie, rereading 180 & 283 a good day or two after the skin they really don't stand out in a vacuum;

I think 283 is genuine considering PK and Titus shared most reads d1 irrc and she always implied in her posts that she believed pk was town. So the "the fuck" shows shes genuinely shocked by the fos from pk and it annoys her + it's not really the kinda of tought-out answer I expect from a vote, it would've been reallly easy for her to point out that he was being opportunistic, yet she just showed her emotion/true reaction which is genuine and not pushing an agenda (like she could've shaded that slot ten times over).

180 well I don't remember my whole thought process but it was something like; it felt like she was actually annoyed by mutant claiming she play a certain way, she did so while not shading mutant as much as she could've. Again, feels like coming from town to me

[Joey_]

the skim* + sorry for formatting error again

[Joey_]

I'm still here, but nothing much has changed so I don't have much to say. GuiltyLion or pisskop should vote Titus so we can proceed.

I get you were on Titus' wagon, but are you sure they should directly ignore NorwegianboyEE in this case? He's also near the majority number, so saying this makes it seem like you're tunneling onto Titus, despite (at the time until Kop's vote) NorwegianboyEE having the same amount of votes as Titus.

I don't understand the intent of this post. I very obviously have Titus as a scum read and NoregianboyEE as a null read. Why would I ask to have my null read lynched over my scum read?

The idea is that you're not giving them a choice. If they scum read Norwegian, let them scum read Norwegian. Saying to vote Titus gives them that lack of choice, crucial in allowing a Town to be that, a town. Maybe they have something that you weren't aware of, and you're tunneling them into a particular lynch.

If they want to vote for Titus, then I'm fine with it, but my heart is saying NorwegianboyEE is scum, so that's where I'll stick.

This is obviously a PM town post

[Joey_]

if Titus flips red then PM/joey seems like an increasingly good solve

Your reads seems so shallow

[Joey_]

VOTE: nEE I forgot i unvoted (apparently the mod forgot too)

[Joey_]

I am available to chat too

[Joey_]

I am available to chat too

you get what I'm talking about or nah

I don't really agree with the premisses but I agree with the conclusion so good enough for me

[Joey_]

"IMO. Either you think the hammer is scum-indicative or it's not."

I disagree. Even if you are being ambivalent about the AI of his hammer, other slots might not be and will push their narrative on another day. The point is; it's better to flip a controversial slot -- that will stay controversial -- on a lynchpool day than on a normal lynchday.

[Joey_]

Like you can say that it's better to remove any possible conflicts about a slot on a day that there might not even be a scum available to lynch than on a day with 3 available scum to lynch

[Joey_]

Thats also part of the argument; Titus does not have that hammer conversation dangling over her head and she's a slot with extensive meta. One way or another, her alignement will increasingly obvious to everyone (thats my opinion). It's true that maybe Titus is mafia and will never be nominated again which will prove me wrong if shes solo scum in the pool today, but I guess that's explained by me thinking she's town thus giving less value to that scenario.

[Joey_]

Also I did want correspondence for the sake of PoE and I am town, so I have definite proof the rationale can come from town so It's not s AI to me

[Joey_]

VC 2.6:

Titus (3)	Menalque 391, NorwegianboyEE 479, Sujimichi 709.
NorwegianboyEE (5)	PMysterious, 492, Joey_ 612, Titus 474 + Creature + Awoo
GuiltyLion (0)
Not Voting (3)	pisskop 484GuiltyLion

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2019-10-15 12:05:08).

No changes to VC.

nEE is L-1 with that vote If i counted correctly

[Joey_]

I see, myb

[Joey_]

Don’t feel bad, it’s most likely TvTvT anyway

[Joey_]

Awoo who are you gunning for if
Titus flip town?
Titus flip mefia?

[Joey_]

I think we should read more than 1 slot at a time

[Joey_]

titus flip town: it was going to be suji but uhhhh

titus flip mafia: PM

wbu?

I am thinking that I should reread the game. I have townreads and deepwolf reads but no obvious srs

[Joey_]

Hm I am genuinely surprised, this was a very bad play from titus

[Joey_]

I disagree with the PM association but I'll take an observateur stance on this one until I reread. At least my meta about being incorrect on Titus is pretty consistent, ironically

[Joey_]

This makes me strongly want to lynch joey ftr

Like I’ll talk it out and I need to iso him but I think their associatives are bad from memory

This is pretty silly since I hard defended town d1 and defended titus for the sake of another lynch in a pool. I know how to bus/play around simple associations

[Joey_]

You guys probably are reading the whole wagon wrong

[Joey_]

Also for all we know, both could be mafia and could explain the lack of movements

[Joey_]

@menalque Also FTR, Titus shaded my ass at the start of D1 and went against my reads, yet the moment I showed intent to lynch nEE she basically stopped interacting with me (hindsight is 20/20, I just assumed she was busy irl & did genuinely townread me), which shows classic SvT associations.

[Joey_]

Why would scum setup a situation that puts the chance of them being lynched at 2/3? I don't find that very likely.

Maybe it was 3/3, all 3 slots were pretty bad and it could be a way to get some t cred for a day, just enough to manipulate town into lynch3, pool of town lynch4 etc. It's what I would do if my scumteam was weak and felt like It wasn't a win situation.

You can even say that Titus accepted the lynch a few days ago since she never responded (I assumed again that she was being genuine), which shows that in some ways, her not defending her slot further probably pursued her scum wincon in some ways. A bus? 3 scum gambit? Not wanting to give interactions? Giving up? idk

[Joey_]

@Suji: I already pointed out that nEE was being inconsistent with her voting of Titus and her reasons for voting her. IRRC she shaded titus for constantly switching votes yet was doing so themselves. The more I think about it the more I am thinking Titus planned to be lynched, the correspondance afk push makes very little sens from a scum agenda

[Joey_]

Ill most likely do a towncase for PM like I did for mutant if people actually are going for them

[Joey_]

@awoo & suji; can you explain your PM read?

[Joey_]

T
GuiltyLion
NorwegianBoyEE
Menalque

TL
Awoo
Joey_

N

SL
pisskop
Creature

S
PMysterious

That did not go how scum envisioned it going at all.

Why do you townread nEE? Lynchpool assumptions?

[Joey_]

Imagine scum putting Titus as solo scum in a lynchpool and being transparent about their motivations and not caring at all about simple/obvious associations for the long haul.

[Joey_]

if norwegianboy got lynched and flipped T, I doubt that titus would follow soon afterwards.

Why? Wasn't the "case" strong on Titus since It was basically the consensus since start of D2.

[Joey_]

Imagine scum putting Titus as solo scum in a lynchpool and being transparent about their motivations and not caring at all about simple/obvious associations for the long haul.

Remember that time when you said that we should be pushing probably narratives instead of possible narratives?

Menalque said that and I critiqued him for it

[Joey_]

Imagine scum putting Titus as solo scum in a lynchpool and being transparent about their motivations and not caring at all about simple/obvious associations for the long haul.

Remember that time when you said that we should be pushing probably narratives instead of possible narratives?

Imagine scum putting Titus as solo scum in a lynchpool and being transparent about their motivations and not caring at all about simple/obvious associations for the long haul.

Remember that time when you said that we should be pushing probably narratives instead of possible narratives?

Menalque said that and I critiqued him for it

My point is that mafia putting titus in a pool would be very aware of the risk/reward of such a play.
IMO assuming that the 2 slots who were transparent about being ambivalent w/ Titus being mafia is pretty shallow/silly. It's more simple to assume those slots were uninformed (I talk for me).

That being said, I ain't perfect and Occam can fail in itself & it's application too.

Off topic: I failed Occam since I assume titus's sloppy play was town, when occam's would say it's from mafia

[Joey_]

titus was bussed by at least one person..guilty springs to kind.

due to me not reading the majority of the day i have no other reads.

but guilty looks like hot ass

Whats your take then on the pool having 2+ mefias + Titus gunning for correspondance from d2 start

[Joey_]

If I use Awoo's wandering logic;

Titus wouldve nominated herself, assuming people would lynch nEE for the hammer, push corresp until replacement-in, then flip to nEE once the replacement start being decent?

@Awoo am i doing it correctly?

[Joey_]

@menalque If I actually tried to save Titus or associative told, you know very well that I can take a stance and defend my point (mutant) which is not something I have even remotely done on Titus. I felt her case was biased and based on silly assumptions scenarios (Awoo's). The fact that my conclusion is wrong (titus is town) doesn't invalidates the premisses (the logic was silly). It's very easy to blame people who were off wagon once a scum flip but this is mostly a fallacy and you are reducing scum agenda at the votes while it is much more complex than that.

All my d2 play was mostly based on damage control because I was believing that the pool was most likely going to be 3t's, that was my pov; people who easily accepted the scum-in-pool pov are much more likely informed since the rational of putting was thought out

BTW

This makes me strongly want to lynch joey ftr

Like I’ll talk it out and I need to iso him but I think their associatives are bad from memory

This is pretty silly since I hard defended town d1 and defended titus for the sake of another lynch in a pool. I know how to bus/play around simple associations

Kinda doubt that joey and Titus are the same alignment based on their interactions around the bottom of p2 into p3

You agreed at some point, even if it was very early game

@nEE Your content is still abysmal and you deserve rope, that is regardless of Titus flip. Plus, wanting you dead was contingent on not wanting Titus dead for d2. Again, I came from a pov where I assumed it could easily be full town

[Joey_]

Lol wtf @nEE. I can prove I have bad history w/ Titus, the claim itself is NAI since its objective infos. Also, you basically fos me for fosing you and only because titus flipped mafia lmao

[Joey_]

@nEE Your content is still abysmal and you deserve rope, that is regardless of Titus flip.

Drat, and you were so close to mislynching me too!
Must feel bad.

ITT: joey going down in flames?

There's likely exactly 1 mafia between { Joey, PM }. Latest joey post feels caught for wrong reasons, nEE has a point about how today is all excuses and wild theories. Might need to consider if i want joey lynched, everyone scumreading PM and then ignoring him is kind of giving me titus lynch vibes again.

fos = finger of suspicion, "i fos you" <---> "i suspect you"

Thats just me despising being fosed at all as town, especially by a fucking slot like nEE, he's literally the profile of players I can't stand

[Joey_]

Latest events: I was clearly the scumlead counterwagon and he is still tunneling me.

This sentence is pretty bad.

Calling everything I did d2, pushing them as "tunneling" is disingenuous. D2 ended up dichotomy lynch in a lynchpool and I haven't voted him today, which is what tunnelling would imply.
Also for the more observant, I haven't called nEE scum in a good while; i said that I believes he's most likely town and just playing terribly which makes him deserving rope (especially in pool day).

[Joey_]

@nEE Your content is still abysmal and you deserve rope, that is regardless of Titus flip.

Drat, and you were so close to mislynching me too!
Must feel bad.

Wow, sorry for being me i guess.

Posts like 953 makes my blood boil. If you knew how many slots called me scum in that same manner & they always are meme otaku slots with 0 content

[Joey_]

lol

I am not considering PM, because I townread them (atm, until futher rereads).
Yes I said I would towncase him.. again because I am thinking he's town.
Yes I think you shouldve died because your hammer was a scumlclaim and you voided your right to live, i still think you are a great pool day lynch
Yes I focused on you because I believed you were the best lynch, i explained my thought process many times.

And now you call me scum for stuff that I have been saying all d2 and you aren't even engaging any content I said, all you are doing is being descriptive of what I did; its not a "case" even if you would like it to be. Rour first 100 words of 965 is shading me while not engaging anything I did and not explaining what is bad about it.

I am a good player town player but I am not infaillible. I am a good scum player but I have been caught quite a few times and guess what; never by newbies. You scumread me being defensive when you are fosing me for ridiculous stuff, thats is exactly my town meta. As scum, I don't even put myself that much out there and I am not confronting players like you because you are a coin toss.

PEDIT: meme otaku is barely what you can consider a personal attack, but yea maybe

[Joey_]

Also you aren't a newbie, you said you came from another site

[Joey_]

I started playing in like springtime this year. I want to get better at the game, but it's not easy when there are personal attacks and rudeness everywhere. You can easily disagree with an opinion without it causing your blood to boil and "getting pissed". If you get so angry from mafia games then i suggest you take a break and breathe deeply in so the "otaku memers" can't hurt you anymore.

I know it's something I have a hard time dealing with & i didn't really register that you were a newbie. Also my baggage in mafia comes from a place where most game were won via ATE (appeal to emotions) so it's a bad habit since it's pretty frown upon on mafiascum (for good and bad reasons). So, I apologize; I don't want you to stop playing mafia because people are being rude to you

Ill take the criticism and will re-explain what I dislike about your post

@nEE Your content is still abysmal and you deserve rope, that is regardless of Titus flip.

Drat, and you were so close to mislynching me too!
Must feel bad.

It's attributing me intentions; it's implying that my goal was to mislynch you, implying I had information knowing your alignement. Then, you attribute me emotions which. Both are wrong and it's somehow fucking annoying to me when someone is trying to think/attribute me stuff, especially when it's dead wrong. It's passive agressive and I just can't deal with it. It also shows that your idea is set and that you aren't really open to engage your read; also a pet peeves of mine is engage stubborn ppl. & i know I have to engage you because you are wrong and I need to defend my slot.

See https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=1925 where i got pinned shit after a lynch & reacted the same way

I am Cloudkicker

Truth is, I am being much more defensive because menalque is actually thinking that I might be mafia from associations via the flip & even if your case is complete junk, it gives credence to the idea that I might mafia just by repeating it over and over again even with no basis. Awoo also implied that he might be considering me as mafia, that is influenced by menalque and you.

[Joey_]

I just realized that with that new information, the hammer could be explained by a lack of experience rather than just scum agenda.
If you are being genuine & want to learn the game, then explain me what you think is wrong/scum indicative w/

"not even considering PMysterious, rather you're saying that you plan on "towncasing him" if there ever builds any wagon on him"

"you've talked about how i should still die because i hammered"

[Joey_]

@PM
You haven't said a word about my slot yet you said I was one of your recent scumread.
Considering my change of tone, the development from menalque/nEE votes and Awoo shading on my slot, t's odd to me that you have nothing to comment

Also your take on nEE's comment, I am the one who got my emotions out of control, not him.

[Joey_]

You're asking me to find out what's scummy about my own posts? I might not be the best player, but that doesn't mean i'm not self-conscious. And i don't see what's scummy about my own posts. If you really want me to spend time criticizing myself then all i can say is that i regret trusting Titus on the day 1 wagon against Mutant and i also should have been more active when i was nominated, but in the end it worked out well didn't it?

Hm what, I asked you to re-explain basically your point because you mentioned a lot of stuff I did and implied I was mafia yet didn't show your thought process.
So what makes me scum about the whole ordeal?

[Joey_]

"To sum it up, your posts on D2 were mostly shading Titus for playing badly, while at the same time townreading her. Which I've shown examples of you doing."

I discredited her play but I said i thought she was town, hence I wasn't shading her alignement but her content. It might sounds incoherent but it isn't; content and alignement aren't the same thing

"But you still insisted on voting for me. I'm basing this on the nomination pool being TvTvS, so that makes your slot objectively scummy."

What is "objectively scummy" in voting you? From your pov, why is being wrong scummy? Mafia isn't about face-value behavior but the intent. What was my intent in trying to lynch you? thats where you should look at, not if I was wrong or not. My intention was to damage control and remove you from the table because of your hammer + lack of content. Don't you think this though process could come from town?

"I think the reason you spent the beginning of this day arguing for a nomination pool with multiple scum is because you were aware of this flip making you look bad. "

Confirmation biais since its not a new take, i said many times that It might be SvSvS troughout d2. This would mean that I would have time to posturize myself better and not look bad (if that was the whole point of the SvSvS talk) so that argument is void

[Joey_]

@PM
You haven't said a word about my slot yet you said I was one of your recent scumread.
Considering my change of tone, the development from menalque/nEE votes and Awoo shading on my slot, t's odd to me that you have nothing to comment

Also your take on nEE's comment, I am the one who got my emotions out of control, not him.

Well, either way, emotions cause people to do things they don't tend to do.

While yes, you are one of my scumreads, it's because you dodged the questions I asked you. If you are willing to go back and answer those questions, I'll be lenient.

Nothing was dodged, it was addressed twice over (and now the 3rd time). If I ask you to cite me the bible et you refuse to do so, are you dodging my question?

[Joey_]

I showed my reads can fail (even if I knew a priori that my titus meta sucked) so y'all should reread the game yourself and find more than one scumread

I have an exam tomorrow morning hence why I didn't take the time to make my towncase.
Basically it's tone & content from meta, simple. I played with him a long time ago and IIRC his slot was abysmal and scum while this game he's able to show his thought process, has decent unique thoughts and is coherent within his own process (even if I disagree with a lot of stuff). My plan was to search the last game we played and his recents scum game so I can do some diggin

@PM can you link me your most recent scumgame

[Joey_]

Also, from a langage perspective, I remember PM being extremely erased and having absolutely not self confidence whatsoever in the scum game we played.
This game, he's using wording that implies he's in a position of power; see "lenient" he used in 986. This most likely also means that he very much prefer to play town than scum (assumption)

[Joey_]

Okay... so if PM is town, then you're the alternative.

What's your preferred lynch then since it wouldn't be you?

Why the dichotomy?

[Joey_]

Again, why am I put in a position where I would need to defend myself, y'all opinion are pretty fucking weak

Menalque "case" is basically bad associatives w/ Titus (while contradicting his early reads
nEE "case" is nothing; I am mafia for being pissed-off & trying to lynch them (aka omgus)
Awoo has been shading me, have not outed a single piece of content explaining/justifying while I would be 2nd lynch option

[Joey_]

not me & dk yet since didn't reread yet regardless i won't let it pass if I am being shaded for shits and giggles. Exclusively townhunting early game is also extensively portrayed in my town meta

[Joey_]

Okay... so if PM is town, then you're the alternative.

What's your preferred lynch then since it wouldn't be you?

Why the dichotomy?

[Joey_]

@PM can you link me your most recent scumgame

Honestly, my most recent scum game was years ago. I believe it was Open 700, Donner Party. I could be wrong on that, though.

I checked, the play in the linked didn't ressemble at all what I remembered, then I found this game https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=19170 when you replaced out.

I skimmed that 12 posts iso and I think I am correct in you being significantly different, i will have to compare with the linked 2017 later

[Joey_]

Sure, disingeneous vote. At this point I cant really be fucked anymore & don’t trust this table

[Joey_]

I heavily considered replacing out after D2’s hammer for school, I haven’t since because otherwise it would feel like I am dodging the lynch & my ego is too big for that, shrugs

[Joey_]

Not having anyone questions the votes on me does not make me want to play this game & invest

[Joey_]

@menalque Awoo’s my deepwolf read since D1 & one of the reasons why I wasn’t outing clear scumreads, so good luck with that

[Joey_]

He has no actual town agenda, hes extremely opportunistic, the content he makes feels always convenient, he has no coherence betweens his reads, no consistence throughout time, Titus acually teamtold w/ then when she agreed on my tr on them, he agreed on nEE yet coasted the end of the day despite his titus fos, he got easily convinced by my Titus case yet haven’t played toward this pov (titus town) at the end, shading both slot and possibily waiting for a hammer outside Titus, he also invented the rationale about the whole Titus scumplot and attributed her intentions which felt like he was informed, once a called his speech contradictions he brushed them off instead of explaining his though process, he also showed different attitude in mutant being lynched & Titus being lynched yet he fosed both, which shows a bias, his vote on me is very self conscious and over justifying (Textbook s tell) also discrediting a possible case coming from me (i hinted i had a deepwolf read somewhere d2), voting me will not unstall the gamme, if he really wanted to he would make content instead of implying hes expecting his vote will provides content.

Thats just on top of my head

[Joey_]

deepwolf

why do people think every game needs a master criminal running around fooling the whole game?

Who is the third partner? Who is a potential fourth if, heavens forbid, awoo is town?

Deep wolf for me is juste a heavily townread slot, not a mastermind

@GL like I said, textbook SvsT tells. Regardless of your actual alignement, I genuinely appreciate at leat having someone making sens readwise

[Joey_]

Btw Joey, i think your "deepwolf" case on Awoo is awful. Awoo’s words repeat themselves, how can you be so confident when you’ve already been so wrong?
I’m thinking you might actually be town, and what’s really influencing my read is that i don’t agree with any of your ideas. Maybe i’ll switch to PM, need to think about it.

Not lynching titus was a mean to an end aka lynching you and you arent yet mod confirmed anything, so it's too soon to say I was wrong

[Joey_]

Both PM and Joey said they were "okay" with lynching titus but in reality they were the strongest fighters in her favour. (by being against you, which had the result of being for her, so they don't get any blood on their hands for opposing a mafia lynch, they can just say they preferred you over her)

Thats not exactly true, my stance changed more than once the whole day; so did nEE, so did you. It just appears that way because I am a frequent poster and near the end of the day, I was the only one of nEE/you who were ambivalent & still wanted to lynch outside Titus

PM arguably defended Titus less than you did & passively lile nEE did

[Joey_]

Like you can try to spin it the way you want, trying to flip nEE while trying to towncase her counterwagon, regardless of the alignement of said counterwagon, is a very typical play. Being wrong, is also very typical of town and uninformed people. The read i was actually pushing -- read the agenda -- was lynching nEE because I assumed in my little naive mind that it was silly to put mafia in pool and was likely all Ts. You keep pushing a narrative about the day and everytime its getter farther and farther from the truth

[Joey_]

You are correct and my memory is very selective, I think PM was indeed most passive, the reason I bunch him up there with strongest supporter of nEE lynch is because he parked his vote on nEE and said he was OK with titus at least once then acted opposite to it all day.

I don't think you're mafia man, I think PM is mafia and I want to lynch him no matter how many times he said the word "lenient"

Dude, that post was because suji and you put pressure of my words about outing a towncase. The lenient thingy was basically the short resume of what I reminded of her scum play meta (being complacent) which explained why it felt like he was town (aka different, not complacent). The argument isnt based on the word "lenient", it was an illustration/exemple showing where my read came from

[Joey_]

prod dodge; im working all week-end & I am pretty busy studying for my mid-finals

[Joey_]

VOTE: Awoo

Your whole game is basically posturizing

[Joey_]

Creature’s replace-in is making wild leaps of logic with the dichotomy joey/suji. While I disagree with the premise,
the way he’s presenting it seems genuine-looking enough.

Suji’s answers has been okay, I need to reread the game

[Joey_]

36 is a joke vote, still in rvs. People that seem to be wagoning him based on that dont should reconsider.

Yeah no.

I think you're town but you give scum far too much credit. 36 is pretty scummy. I'd be pretty fucking surprised if mutant flipped town.

Suji’s slot looks obvious town with this classic distance-half-shade, classic TvsS

[Joey_]

Like the purpose of that Titus post is to;

Discredit Dong’s take on mutant
Call Dong town so she probably be more receptive to the wagon Titus is pushing and maybe vote mutant with her
Increase the likelihood of the mutant lynch

You don’t really need to convince your scumbuddies - while buying their good sides with a tr

[Joey_]

The exact point of RVS is to use exaggerated cases to push and use the content generated to make real cases. So why isnt that happening right here? Is it because youre too busy trying to defend mutant? is it because you stepped up to the plate to stifle conversation and take away that from everyone else?

What are you talking about? I dont scumread mutant over it, so im asking you to clarify. Since you are so stubbornly not doing that, i am defending him, yes.
I'll listen to your point of view if you explain it, right now all i can gather from this is that you scumread mutant over a rvs vote, if you want me to take your side i will, provided you actually convince me on that.

I'm not sure whether dong is trying to portray himself as reasonable here or if he really is uncertain. It's not about being correct, even though I think we are. It's about using pressure to sort people and get wagons going.

Right now, there's too much emphasis on who is wrong rather than. Let's try this.

Dong’s answer + Titus is also pretty TvsS; Titus decides to talk in 3rd person because she don’t want to escalade the confrontation, but she does so while shading Dong & giving herself an out if she eventually ends up needing to push/scumread Dong

Its pretty blatant when you know Titus alignement