Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 Dead PT

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Why did you die? Bullet hell games are hard, aren't they. Sorry you're here, but your teammates can still win! If this link arrived by PM, of course ~

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Spectators that currently have access: Tammy, Tatsuya Kaname

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No player got Temmie flavor so she can have it if she wants to be Temmie

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The game is kinda not starting because I insisted on 9/11 confirmations before gamestart so that no slots were like a full prod timer ahead of the other slots due to that being likely on a weekend start.
I wanna post VCs and meaningless flavor though.

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I asked for everyone to acknowledge mafia has daychat when they confirm for the game since it's a common actual/faked modslip that comes up and putting in the ruleset isn't a full countermeasure.

People are really struggling with change though

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A mafiosi complained that allowing people to have 1 vote per option makes the game harder to win for scum

I just thought people would have a lot more fun this way, more choices and stuff

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200 posts in the first 6 hours.

0 posts in the last six hours.

whew.

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Does nice pace mean slow enough you could imagine yourself playing it? hahaha.

The hurt votes are just lynches.

The heal votes are to nominate someone for the "spare" group in an attempt to trigger the special win condition for getting 4 townies in the "spare" group.

I think that's all you need to understand to play the setup which is a great thing about the setup. We had someone come almost straight from the newbie queue and perform really well, last time.

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Their complaint didn't go into specifics, but I think the point being made is that tracking the stances of players on both categories makes identifying consensus and compromises easier. It also would remove a possible excuse a player would have about why they didn't help HURT their scumpartner for a lynch, "I was really excited about HEALing townie Alice and I'm not allowed to vote both." You can still refrain from voting both, but you would have to argue boldly that you like the HEAL route better and that's why you're doing it rather than hiding in ambiguity.

Anything that makes it easier for the town to beat the mafia in dayplay, I am for, I think it makes mafia more fun. If too many of those advantages accumulated, I would rather increase the number of mafia or give the mafia more night powers rather than take those kinds of advantages away.

I have some concerns this setup might be too townsided. I designed one that I think is more balanced, but it was more complex and that becomes unappealing to people. I might figure out some other solution during this game.

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MASTINA!

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I enjoy the VCA flavor text; it is very cute!

^_^

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chennisden i like made your role pm like a strategy guide for the game and you didn't follow it T_T

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The scumteam came to the decision to shoot you relatively effortlessly

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One of my beliefs is that once you get a red role PM you have a harder time discerning between townreadable and null behavior, so I think they maybe yes overrated your towniness. I think Ginngie would have been a much stronger shot, I think people were townreading him more. Although I hesitate to second guess the mafia like that, I am no expert on being the bad guys.

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They might be

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It's a bizarre policy for Ginngie to state since self hammering for spare is correct from both scum and town alignment.

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Flowey is evil D:

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How come Elements didn't misread the kill flavor the way nacho did, chennisden?

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It seems to me that it is possibly the case that Flowey is letting Jerry pick the kills because Jerry is picking kills that are far from being Flowey's calling card. I cannot ask the scumteam about this interpretation as it would possibly result in suggesting the strategy which would break impartiality.
I was surprised by the chennis kill too.

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Elements shed tears for you Nymph! Could he cry over his own act!?!?!?

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I'm not sure why town wants to go 2-2. 2-2 generates 1 confirmed innocent in 5 man LyLo and then goes into a 3 man LyLo, when it's innocents that have been spared. So you need to make 2 accurate townreads to win that LyLo

If you feel you can make 2 accurate townreads, just win now? If the 2 accurate townreads are wrong in neutral, you lose. If the 2 accurate townreads are wrong in Pacifist, you get some amount of do-over, you get to do the spare a 5th person and guess the mafia game.

You also instantly lose 2-2 if scum is spared and people have pointed that out. But even when the 2 spares are clean, the way I'm counting it, pacifist is better. I think the flips are valuable but surely not as valuable as a do-over. Which is itself, kind of a flip, look at these people you liked, you were wrong about one of them

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i've explained my point of view more thoroughly than necessary and am not interested in continuing this exchange for there are more productive things i need to do before sleep takes me away. i tried to rebel against the man but i lost. i'm chilling out and going with the flow as a result.

you can take this as a learning experience and read me better in the future OR you can blame me for the misread post-game, but all of the pieces of the puzzle to determining my alignment are in your hands. if i were scum, nymph wouldn't be dead and you wouldn't be alive.

Oh man he's roleplaying the flavor.
kakkoi des

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No reasoning mentioned at all

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Xayah cracking the code on nka.

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Hammering a spare seems defensible, moreso than a lynch. Especially if you roll scum

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For those who want to be spoiled:

Nacho, I regret to inform you that it was probably all in all a good play

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I would say it's a good play but not the best play. Achieving his ends more democratically is probably the best play. I just didn't want you to fume harder than you had to.

It's actually not really very punishing to spare scum in neutral, which is my biggest concern with the setup.

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mastina's last post is awesome. A lie. But an awesome lie.

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Not realizing "sparing scum to unlock a bonus kill" is inferior to "lynch a slot instead of sparing, then refer to this lynch as "bonus kill" was a very perplexing mechanical misplay from the scum.

I think the way this is playing out is proving Nachomamma8's point more and more clearly. I think I definitely stand corrected Chill-dizzle.

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?
Chemist has been confirmed town chen

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The first Undertale semiopen was won or lost based on whether Elements was lynched in LyLo. This Undertale semi-open, on the other hand, will be won or lost based on whether Elements is lynched in LyLo

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What are you saying should be a kodak moment? Post 71???

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I think Elements makes some things funny that would not be quite so funny were it not Elements.

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I don't see why you can't nom posts from dead PTs after they go public postgame, for what that's worth.

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I follow now.
Yeah it is kind of abstract for a comparison between 2 games to constitute a "moment".
Maybe there's a title in there.

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Hey it doesn't really matter but doesn't saying the core is reached immediately after the end of day 4 mean that the number of mafia in the spared pt should have been revealed before night 4 actions?

It was, by means of flavor, though it wasn't overtly stated. Maybe it needed to be more clear. I don't think there was harm in this case, since the person who could have made a misinformed decision was mastina, and in her night action PM it was clear that she understood the killer robot flavor to be a 1 mafia spared reveal. (Her night action PM was a wallpost, because she is mastina and we love her)

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In the mod PT I have been posting lots of brainstormed ideas for a new neutral route, since it is the route in the setup I am most unhappy with. I have rejected like 4 ideas already after calculating EVs. (The EV on the current neutral route is fine, but the EV changes very little when the town spares scum, which I view as a flaw.)

I finally have one that seems to have acceptable EVs, and retains the property of being qualitatively different from both pacifist and genocide, and meets the goal of punishing towns for sparing scum. It is very iffy to spare exactly two players, but the original neutral route has that issue anyway.
My nickname for this one is Double Barrel. Some of the inspiration for the design was Nachomamma8's notion about sparing players for being strong rather than just being town aligned, and this setup rewards that moreso than the previous neutral.

I welcome any feedback on this potential design.

Neutral Route: In all other cases, the game enters neutral route. The members of the spared PT immediately kill two players from the main thread. If there are two spared players, each spared player picks a kill in the spared PT without nokilling or targeting the other spared player's target. If there's an odd number of spared players, a combination of players to be killed is selected by majority vote.
After these kills resolve, the spared players are returned to the game. There is no Night 4 nightkill.
The game then continues with the spare option removed and the town win condition of "kill all mafia".

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Did you actually use that chart to read mastina?
The point of the chart seemed to be to always townread mastina.
Seems like a broke clock is correct twice a day thing.

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#822, which is only a white lie, so is arguably not a lie.
I remember 7 year old pops hearing a story in first grade about a bunny who stole lettuce from the garden but also additionally stole carrots from the garden and didn't volunteer the incriminating information in taking to her parents and so told a white lie.
I was very distraught that selectively not volunteering information could be considered a lie.

There's obviously a huge loss in value if Rakan and Ginngie are both town and you get spared as PR since you could confirm yourself town by other means, and the total amount of conftown would go higher if you got someone like Chemist1422 spared. I'm assuming that was an even bigger motivation than the motivations you revealed

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I'm rooting for scum but I'm a little pessimistic/concerned for Xayah

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Something_Smart now has access to this PT as a spectator
Because I'm super impatient and want to here more hate/love for my neutral route idea.
And I don't think I can quite shop changes publically during ongoing Undertale Semi-Opens

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Yes I am not positive how I want the 2 spared players game to work. I thought about different things like them each choosing secretly or picking in order of spared PT seniority. I like having the shots be guaranteed to be different. Currently the 2 spared players route has the lowest EV of all neutral routes (a bug/feature of the original setup as well), so that made me more willing to put off figuring out what to do on that. It's possible a completely different outcome just for exactly two spares is the best thing to do.

Do you mean you don't think it benefits scum to get scum spared in the new neutral route, or in the old one? The benefit to sparing scum is admittedly somewhat subtle in Double Barrel. Scum just controls 2, 1, or <democratic influence on 2> nightkills. But also, mafia cannot be targeted by the nightkills, so even if there's a one out of three scum who doesn't successfully influence the NK decision that scum has the benefit of surviving at least to day 5, where they can push for a mislynch on another spared PT player, whereas if no scum are spared it's possible for scum to lose before a single spared PT post can be quoted and used to push a mislynch.

I think Double Barrel rewards sparing scum more than original Undertale Semi-Open but would quickly say that what I have put down in Undertale Smalltown more dramatically and excitingly rewards the scum for sparing scum compared to either setup. There might be something even better than Double Barrel that doesn't have the complexity cost of Undertale Smalltown, but I haven't thought of it yet.

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Every game I've played and where I've been set up for a mislynch it has been hard backed by the scum team because of a night kill them made specifically to incriminate me.

Whoa there, now, I waxed you under a day 1 mislynch without nightkilling anybody first, just a month or two ago, I've only played one good scumgame all year but damn if I want anyone to forget it.

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Why would anyone ever accuse Oversoul of having a plan?

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I wish it was mastina in LyLo in the sense that I think she would lean heavily one direction but take a long time making sure and then I could write the game outcome flavor in advance.
I have no idea whether Chemist1422 is gonna throw or not.

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Ok how about this:

Dating Game:
If exactly two players were spared, the game enters Dating Game. The players in the spared PT try to date. If either player is scum, the date is a failure. The spared players are returned to the game, then the mafia performs strong kills until there is one more town player than mafia. The mafia grants either the (previously) spared players or the (previously) unspared players one day phase of lynch proof.

If both players are town, the date is a success! The spared PT players become lovers and one shot bodyguards. A mafia goon becomes lovers with the player of his choice, choosing mafia if able. The remaining two players also become lovers. There is no night four. The town fights a lover pair, and then the lover relationships end.

In both cases, the town win condition becomes "kill all the mafia", and the mafia must prevent that.

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I think "a day or two" is a lot longer than the time that's going to elapse between Chemist1422 deciding which slot is scummier and hammering

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The clock on a day or two doesn't start running until Chemist has decided, he clearly hasn't really decided.
I wanted to see scum overcome the advantage of a 1-check Papyrus, I think I'm going to be disappointed though.

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I share your disappointment in this outcome. Oversoul played really well I think

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I wish I could return you all to the game and let you vote the last lynch. I really mean that.