Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

[Vorkuta]

Heyo
I agree with fast-forwarding through RVS
VOTE: suspicious

[Vorkuta]

Scum team pair found in RVS.
Who needs to go first?

[Vorkuta]

I voted because that's literally the only way to make progress @D1.

Jokes aside, Sus's reaction to said wagon and the follow up interrogation gets him townpoints from me.
But like... come on guys, show a tiny bit of common sense with these questions

[Vorkuta]

Sus's reaction- not that of panic but "gimme a break, ok whats going on?"
RVS pressure gets to people in different ways

Nah
Scum has literally the entire roster to vote during RVS.
Anticipating being RVS voted for having a funny name is one thing, but I see no reason for them to pile up like that.
It's just horribly suboptimal

Also keep in mind that we're still missing a player

[Vorkuta]

Why did you choose that option over others?

the alternative requires actually putting in effort

Works well for me, nice way out of RVS, been doing it for quite a while, dont see any issues with it (aside from inadvertantly helping put someone at L-1 by page 1)
Also I like my wagons

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: CJ
The more pages that pass without him making a first post, the townie he is.
This was too early.

I'd like yer answer to this as well.

Not intended recipient but I'm about to hit 5000

shit

posts worth of mafia

*ahem*
They could be offsite gods and it would be suboptimal for them to share such info so don't get your hopes up.

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: january
Trial by fire works best IMHO

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: CJ
The more pages that pass without him making a first post, the townie he is.
This was too early.

Hey I'm trying to give effort here and play better.

I don't want to be well known

that

way

I asked a question early, please answer when you're caught up.

No offense to Cee, but low-effort seems to be his modus operandi. I don't know if it's AI by itself or not.

I mean.... the answer is pretty much self explanatory.
It's 50% tongue-in-cheek "hi CJ, you should pop in", 20% "the more CJ lurks, the townier he is" meta, and 30% shitpost

Either way he's going to be a fun slot

[Vorkuta]

First of all, you’re absolutely ridiculous and way too aggressive.

+1
Tone it down ffs- I get that your MO is "power town" and "SPANISH INQUISITION", but your dominating attitude is not helping you score town points with me.

[Vorkuta]

Okay, let's no descend into vote-baiting. This is a one-way ticket to a mislynch on either side of the equation.

vote..

But no- early on I like my votes either on proper wagons or on players who respond to votes as pressure.
Considering how increasingly nervous january is getting, I think I like it there to see where it would lead.

[Vorkuta]

[Vorkuta]

I think I'm at

{Sus, GB, FP}
{January, CJ}
{Zenith. Jam}
{tictac}

Also guys- this "he put the guy to L-1" discussion has been spanning on for 10 pages so....

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta, what’s the point of putting a vote on me and telling me you’re looking for a reaction? Wouldn’t that just ruin the reaction test? And I asked this before but it’s probably buried: which of my lines made you mark me as nervous?

-your point being?
A vote on you is still pressure, regardless of the pretext under which I justify it
if others join then others join. If not then....
-I can't be bothered to comb through your ISO, find a quote which pings you as vulnerable for me, and proceed to have a back-and-forth. Suffice to say your opening (hi, I'm new, please be nice) and the next few afterwards left that impression on me and that's it.

[Vorkuta]

@Vork A vote claiming to be for pressure actually carries very little to no pressure. Specially when compared to a serious vote on a wagon.

I disagree because now January has the knowledge that I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a tiny screw up, and it's quite implicit that a wrong step might turn my vote into a proper "I think you're scum" vote

[Vorkuta]

out of curiosity, how much “coaching” between mafia members usually occurs in the mafia chat?

I mean feel free to check out a completed game for the PT reveals, but it depends on players/playstyles.
You have people that don't shut up in there and micromanage/control freak, and you have.... quiet players

attempt at town spewing noted

[Vorkuta]

Tictac v Jam might have scum in it
Sus v Zenith is prolly TvT

Just based on the last few pages of interaction alone

[Vorkuta]

Spoiler: "online times"

not a fan but valid strategy

vork also basically zero impact.

you guys are doing all the heavy lifting for me

So why does scum!tic try to push a lynch away from town!Zen?

Come on- this isn't your first rodeo here
-planned lynchbait for later
-town points for eventual/inevitable flip
-wifom
-pocketing reasons
-idk I'm not the scum!mastermind here

why is GB town?

gut/tone- his walls feel the most genuine in terms of "getting to the bottom of things" while others have more of a "defensive/agenda-driven" approach
also he ticked off things in my "things to look for in town" checklists

is the scumread on me something other than u disagree w me on what info is relevant?

meh
it's one of those things that I can't point out in words because you'll have a valid and reasonable response for any point I might come up with, and yet at the end of the day I'll still think that your approach is scummy.
I just don't like the manner in which you're "powertowning" and that's all

[Vorkuta]

Also heya vork

*waves*

[Vorkuta]

two mutually exclusive scum!mindsets

The first one failed so...

[Vorkuta]

Sure
Click on the activity overview button

[Vorkuta]

does either person voting me have any reason behind the vote or are they both still votes for pressure even though we're at a point where we should be actually voting to lynch

Yeah- posts like these.
I'll consolidate when/if necessary, but no

[Vorkuta]

But I'm town spewing

In all honesty I'm not particularly entertained by this constant back and forth where literally the same thing is being repeated with only slight variations/rewordings and I lack the desire to play in the mud with you guys for now.
Like... rereading several pages just gave me complete dejavu

D2 will be much more fun

[Vorkuta]

it’s because i asked him why he’s voting me??

yes
on top of a ping here and there, I hate your reaction to your own wagon.
such concern and self-consciousness comes from scum more often than town

[Vorkuta]

wow thank you for breaking it down for me like I'm 5

Town has more emphasis on either building a town block and scum hunting. Scum is more worried about staying alive, which is what I think you're more concerned about atm.
(and yes- feel free to misinterpret what I'm saying as "town should take getting lynched lying down with no resistance whatsoever")

Like it's pretty obvious that I'm skimming through the game and replying to the parts that interest me. The fact that it "registered" in my mind that you're more than overly self-aware of the wagon on you is the tell.
Other people have shitty arguments and shitty pushes, but I'll need flips to say more definitively.

[Vorkuta]

either .... and ....

such english, much grammar

[Vorkuta]

January

this is literally my case against you

why the fuck would/do you care about the opinions of someone who has done jack shit/lurked/prodged this game?

[Vorkuta]

someone who has done jack shit/lurked/prodged this game?

sounds like me

[Vorkuta]

i’m not comfy with 3 votes on me

You're not even 'kneejerk' reacting by calling me scum, (and heaven knows I've given people loads of opportunities to do so)- just the casual "hey why are you still voting me, can you not, kthnx?"
Which suggests really strongly to me that you're just more interested in making it to D2 than... yeah

As for "comfy"- rest assured that anyone who lol!quickhammers under false/shady pretenses will be put through hell and examined quite harshly under a microscope (especially considering this player cast)

Add that to my impression that some of your posts designed just to stir the pot without solid contributions and have the true intent of spreading chaos and I think I have a scumcase.

Oh look I'm even sharing it

which in my completely unbiased opinion is very Sound Logic

The logic is sound
The premises from which you're basing the said logic are not.

[Vorkuta]

@bailey

I sincerely doubt that your skitter push is going to happen today.
Bring that up tomorrow maybe

[Vorkuta]

Day and a half is more than enough to CFD onto someone
I've done it in 3 hours

[Vorkuta]

What is CFD?

Chinese Fire Drill

aka- we forget all of our existing wagons, everyone picks a random person and we collectively lynch them for "no reason" other than "deadline"
it wins games trust me

/s

[Vorkuta]

Sus
Take a breather/break
come back

tomorrow

in ~8 hours when you're refreshed.

The pity party will still be here, along with the scum!points you're racking up with me

[Vorkuta]

slip

[Vorkuta]

*sighs*
I can buy it knowing the mason pair
VOTE: bailey

[Vorkuta]

Ok we talked and this is getting out of hand.

Suspicious and I are masons. Feel free to be pissed off but lynch one of us and the other dies tonight, you lose both of your PR’s in 1 day.

Also just want to make sure this is seen so hello

bad vote
strike 2

[Vorkuta]

oh boy

[Vorkuta]

dang theres no point in reasoning with bailey i think he genuinely Does Not Understand

Yeah this reads hilariously

almost as if he's trying to fake dumb!claim for us

[Vorkuta]

Most setups nowadays are quite town favored so it also serves as a nice intro to site meta I suppose.

[Vorkuta]

i don't think it was necessary for both masons to out.

I think it was a shit play for masons to out themselves D1 at all.
Jam wasn't even in """real""" danger IMHO- just frustration.

[Vorkuta]

i still keep getting u two confused a little bit

hi I have the gif avatar and I didn't put anyone to L-1 @RVS

[Vorkuta]

I'd rather bite my tongue today and cooperate with a lynch than keep stonewalling and insisting that it's someone that doesn't have a chance of being run up in a day.
So- PoE, deadline, + like only 2"""acceptable""" wagons (+Zenith, and I personally hate returning to RVS wagons) excluding a CFD.
His ISO (short enough to reread ) looks 'meh' due to inactivity (lawl pot calling kettle black ikr).... yeah

Just out of curiosity
@mason buddies- btw, did you guys crumb?

[Vorkuta]

Tomorrow I'll take {tictac/DDL/skiiter/febuary} for a spin and see how that fares.

[Vorkuta]

But from all of your thoughts

let me just
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason
here you go

Jam & sus have claimed mason.
Sure they could be lying but
-there isn't a counter claim (HEY IM ANOTHER PR) which SHOULD be done because we literally win the game if the 2 are lying
-one of them will be killed tonight

So it's not really just our thoughts, so much as "game mechanics"

[Vorkuta]

UNVOTE:
Breathing room

[Vorkuta]

k
great
that's cool

Now do me a favor and kindly explain how that comes from scum!vork and not town!vork?
Where's the "scum intent" behind my actions?

Also reVOTE: bailey

[Vorkuta]

Yeah

My push on december AT LEAST has the distinction of how I think she would behave if she were town in that scenario, and why her overly-concerned nature comes from scum and not town.

I'm pretty sure this is just a kneejerk OMGUS vote + "how could you betray me like this even though 300 posts ago you thought I was town" + "desperate attempt at literally anything a second before the deadline".
I don't want to say "classic scum flailing", but pretty damn close to it.


Also if I wanted to vote for the sake of lynching, I'd go for DDL who's been quite absent.
Maybe skitter considering she's V/LA, or Zenith because it would be so simple and I'd get literally no blowback.

[Vorkuta]

ew I literally told you my internet

And what part of "IF VORK WAS THE SCUMZ" did your shitty internet prevent you from understanding?

[Vorkuta]

Oh hammer

[Vorkuta]

from my pov it's two of {tictac/ddl/vork/bailey/zenith}

Skitter having literally only 1 town read at this point in the game is EXTREMELY concerning.

[Vorkuta]

<3

Distancing from your scum partner- I dig it

[Vorkuta]

{jan/skitter}

out of curiosity, how much “coaching” between mafia members usually occurs in the mafia chat?

huh- CJ being december's hypo!scum partner would explain this comment- there's a night/day difference between CJ's and skitters level of..... 'involvement' in the game.

can ceejay be prodded it's been almost 48 hours

reading between the lines "can I get a better scum partner PLEASE???"

And the kicker

and i’d like to at least give skitter a chance to play - can we not vote her today pls

"hey now that I've gotten a really cool scum partner can we PLEASE not lynche her? kthnx"

And who knows what plan of action they've decided on in their scumPT but "hey lets distance and stir up a bit of drama for show" sounds alright, especially considering bailey's "dying remark" was "its skitter- vork u suk btw"

omgus

VOTE: Skitter

[Vorkuta]

Vork what happened to the creepy fawning thing?

Pardon? Kindly clarify and rephrase

This is said in the main thread because ...?

LAMIST points
I even pointed it out back when

attempt at town spewing noted

Except it took me a while to connect dots

[Vorkuta]

I'm genuinely concerned with this line of questioning but I'll bite

- why does this distancing need to happen ?

It's a decent play designed to shake off any pressure that remained off of D1 and preempt any big plays
Pick a fight with your scumbuddy and after a few pages you'll have the consensus of "either it's TvT or TvS, but NOT SvS"

- why is bailey's dying remark relevant here ?

(Even more so in a newbie game) from what I've noticed quite a few people take the dying declaration of a mislynched townie with some weight.

- why doesnt january vote me if we're distancing ?

I don't subscribe to the theory that votes = "i want to lynch".
You can be on a wagon without having a vote on it- typically it's quite obvious (in other games maybe) which wagon I'm supporting even though my votes meandering around uselessly.
Also she might want to wait until the small talk is over and the discussion escalates before using the vote for dramatic flair idk.

This thing that you've done the last three times i've played with you ^

-scumday so I decided to celebrate by growing up
-look how well it worked for me in said last game
-would you rather I turn off my brain and revert back?

There's literally no reason

Ah yes- I remember my newbie games quite well.
I think october is someone who'd like to insert a snide comment that's based on the truth.
It serves the dual purposes of playing the newbie card
-"hey I'm so not scum because there's no way I know what's going on in the scum!PT"
and genuine questioning
-"hey my scumpartner who's allegedly supposed to hold my hand and guide me through things is MIA so I might as well get a response in mainthread"

Ofc it's not "mechanically optimal" but I can totally see someone with a bit of personality making those comments both facetiously and 'seriously'.

[Vorkuta]

Dont do the half-assed shading, go on, flesh it out

*sighs*
I'm pretty sure it was self-implied, but fine
It's concerning because it doesn't have (or at least I can't find) the markings/intentions of "town-solvey" skitter.

Given that she's the consensus tr outside the masons this needs to happen because ...

Needing a REASON for a play?
That's BS and you know it- "I feel like we should" and "for shits and giggles" is enough incentive/motivation/justification for 99% of the players here

A) that kinda holds for nks but doesnt usually hold for people who got lynched, people in general dont pay that attention to the lynchee's reads
B) why does bailey saying it's me mean me/january need to distance
C) i dont think bailey even said it was me at eod

A- let's agree to very much disagree. It's too straightforward to NK someone simply because their reads were on point. While the 'collective feeling of guilt' of a mislynch might prompt people to honor his last wishes
B- as a contingency for if/when september flips red, you'll be as far away from her as possible and have no problems reaching the home stretch.
C- irrelevant as ^

I dont get it

Uh huh. Here are more
-I got bored of that spiel
-I think I genuinely might have something this game- not from YOU (no, you would be way too good to slip up like this

you said you missed the fawning

), but from your newbie partner.
-doing the same thing over and expecting different results is some definition of insanity
-Again: would you rather I roll over?

In my last newbie game my partner went awol and i went out of my way to avoid calling attention to this sort of thing in the main thread, not really sure why someone would do that tbh

Idk nerves? Panic? Subconscious need for other people to sympathize with plight?
I on the other hand would let everyone and their grandmothers know when/if my scum partner goes AWOL


Now for the meaty stuff, which is what I was hoping for
I don't like how the crux of your defense is "a mechanically optimal or otherwise perfect player wouldn't do any of the things" and how you're shifting the definitions. I am presenting a very plausible scenario, backed up with bits of evidence, slightly liberal assumptions, and my own personal experience.

Whereas you're basically demanding "screenshots of their scumPT" levels of evidence necessary for my points to have any validity in your eyes.
Which is a scum!skitter play

[Vorkuta]

Wtf when did I start effort wallposting

[Vorkuta]

Because ...

Because.... I've played games with town!skitter before?

Why do *i* decide this is a good idea here

I don't think you'll actually "discourage" your scumpartner- you'll just say "yeah sure whatever" and leave quite a long leash
But this is what I facetiously mean by "scumPT screenshots or else stfu"

A) you're portraying this to be a lot more common than it actually is

I think the "Bailey's last words" are a nice supporting piece of the puzzle, but isn't the main meat of my argument. But fine

@all y'all

- do/did you take Bailey's reads seriously, or was he blowing smoke up?

B) in the current gamestate i'm more likely to flip before january so uh why do i play around this scenario

Distancing works both ways so....

Like come on

trajectory

I think it was obvious that EMM was going to be a low effort game so I didn't bother trying to read you.
Cats was for the pocketing which worked out quite well IMHO.
And what was the game we had before that- JAZZ? The one where I rolled mason and you rolled IC?

For completeness sake- there are games where I try to behave and pocket papa leaf, there are games where I ignore his existence, and there are games where I hypertunnel the shit out of him accusing him of NKing his own scum partner.
And various stages of "between".
I'd ask for the same "give me enough credit" from you to stop assuming that I'm a 1 trick pony with regards to good players.

why are you voting me

Because september offered to bus you in the first post of the day and I want to see if there's going to be a follow up. Also I tried her yesterday- no takers.

and i think you know that

My push is on October first- you're just the one engaging/doing the heavy lifting, especially considering you started the day off with a vote on me. I'll put Septmember through the slaughterhouse when she decides to comment in this spectacle, but it's also a demonstration for the remainder of the townies that my case is legitimate and I'm not simply blowing smoke out of my backside.

This is overinflationary rhetoric and doesnt accurately represent my position or what i'm saying

Colorful? Yes, but I took this liberty to ensure that the point wouldn't be lost in the wall of text.
Misrepresantative? Absolutely not. Every response of yours has been some iteration of "scum!skitt wouldn't do that- your job to prove otherwise" when we both know your scum!range is quite infinite and even may in fact contain mechanically suboptimal plays, especially with a newbie partner,


And if we're taking votes seriously, the one you have parked on me is garbage and unjustified.
I'd love to 180 and see what you're like on the offensive sometime soon

[Vorkuta]

about if there's an explanation

-burden of proof shifting is icky
-I already emphasized around 50 times about how said choice phrases and more are more likely to come from a scum!november than a town!november

i am more than capable of towntelling on my own

every little bit helps

you can choose to believe me or not

eh.... meh..... *scratches head*
I got nothing but "we'll see" in response to that

any other reason

find me a single person who has EVER had a single (non-mechanical) valid reason to scum!read skitter.
shit's impossible yo

and not a single person even looked at my reads

I too can do statistics and find games where that happened and it didn't happen.
Either way, bailey's dying declaration is not the crux of my read, more like a convenient detail that I'm choosing to incorporate into my narrative.

lol are you elastic or something

why yes in fact I can

do the splits

touch my toes

thanks

read skitter's sig about leaving skitter in Lylo- just covering my bases

oh also pretty sure your entire point is null

imma reply to this in my next post for emphasis

[Vorkuta]

oh also pretty sure your entire point is null

*ahem*

I pretty much had my eyes on skitter the whole time. Sure I may have taken narrative liberties to provoke skitter, but now I have a much more solid read on her as a result, and the resulting discourse helped me EVOLVE my read on her (I'm sorry I dragged december's name through the mud

but I'm actually not sorry

) and actually find concrete points that I dislike.
I might even call it a reaction test, but I know you'll just read the 2 words by themselves and blow them out of proportion completely disregarding the nuance and elegance of my play.

My final verdict on this: If this is town!skitter, I would be very dissapointed. The more likely option is that this is scum!skitter.

[Vorkuta]

I mean who is october and september?

*looks at the player names*
they must refer to Zenith and tictac respectively

/s

Are we

is vork

just referring to january as any other month for some reason?

FTFY (as I'm the only doing it IIRC) and yes.

Spoiler:

the reason is that I can't actually spell january when I dont have autocorrect. Is there an 'r' in the middle? Janruary? January? same with febuary? february? why is it so inconsistent ffs. All 4 of these words/spellings strike me as weird
but OCTOBER- now that's a nice and simple month to spell

Also jan and jam are too confusing.
Ok if we're being serious I like giving people nicknames and I'm trying to see which month 'sticks' better.

it some kind of weird code?

I feel kinda useless here

townspew attempt noticed and acknowledged

What do you guys do when you get stuck, having difficulty forming decent reads?

I give you the 3 "sh"s
Whenever I'm stuck in a game, I either shitpost, sheep, or shut up and pray night actions make the game easier

[Vorkuta]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Correct
Excellent

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

There are many people who brag about such abilities/skills (particularly in their sigs), but IMHO skitter is someone who's probably actually legitimately deserved phrases like these thrown her way

[Vorkuta]

a) can you, like, quote this declaration

Spoiler:

VOTE: january
Trial by fire works best IMHO

I don't really trust the wagon on January right now. Vork's reason is how badly Jan reacted to her own wagon. Shouldn't town be scared of being voted off D1? Shitty way to end a game so fast. Maf and Town should both be scared of being lynched, and Zenith's reason...

Ok..
VOTE: january

Is because Jan didn't want people voting CJ because he didn't do anything particularly scummy?
Suspicious's reason is...

VOTE: january

How am I doing, chief?

Sounds like a frustration/reaction post. Reaction from Jan tunneling Jamelia, and frusteration after Jan called him dense. The only valid reason I see is from the constant tunneling.
and from:

good for you! you guessed my reads congrats!

Like, come on. Your reads aren't super obvious.

As for Jam...

this is the biggest point for me.

What if he stayed on Zenith? Would that earn him any town points? Why are you only holding Jam accountable for this? Seemed like a "Woah wait, I want a little more information first" unvote.

if jamelia thought tictac was mafia they would have said that explicitly

i’m saying jamelia is scum because they townread tictac for no reason.

But people can have null reads. Especially since the conversation has been mostly revolved around two wagons.

Because they're the towniest person in this game rn ...

Why is Jan the towniest?

I'm thinking Skitter right now.

Mostly from 480

1. Sus definitely wasn't defending him. and he's right, Zenith would have a scum buddy to defend him, and be vocal about it. The fact that no one really cared was discerning.
2. Town reading Jan for no reason I can find.

Voting him back seems a bit ridiculous.

The reasons you mention are: 315, 326,469 which are mostly "I think Jan is town.".

VOTE: skitter30

&

Spoiler:

Alright, well, my next choice after everyone would probably be Vork.

Vork held on and voted Jan 61
When asked why

-I can't be bothered to comb through your ISO, find a quote which pings you as vulnerable for me, and proceed to have a back-and-forth. Suffice to say your opening (hi, I'm new, please be nice) and the next few afterwards left that impression on me and that's it.

And held on for the sake of pressure until 573.

Then, to go from:

gut/tone- his walls feel the most genuine in terms of "getting to the bottom of things" while others have more of a "defensive/agenda-driven" approach
also he ticked off things in my "things to look for in town" checklists

To

*sighs*
I can buy it knowing the mason pair
VOTE: bailey

Is a pretty sharp contrast. It sounds like Vork wants to lynch for the sake of lynching, instead of lynching for scum. This was before I made the vote on Suspicious.

Again:

I'd rather bite my tongue today and cooperate with a lynch than keep stonewalling and insisting that it's someone that doesn't have a chance of being run up in a day.

Welp, that's my only defense. Plus I was trying to NOT get the PRs from voted out, but that was before they claimed so idk how much merit that holds. I'd rather have Skitter voted out, but that ain't happening. I'll be off for the next few hours so whatever happens, will happen. I'll try to reply mobile if this sparks anything.

VOTE: Vork

His last 2 posts of any "relevance".
The one in my direction was made pretty much at the point when the wagon on him was going through and is all but OMGUS in nature.
The one towards skitter has... potential.
But I reiterate- "cherry on top", not "actual cake"

He does, in fact, make stuff up as scum sometimes

Right

using overinflated rhetoric

-That's NAI of me- whenever I'm efforting I tend to get colorful with my wordchoice
-Ssure. Let's ignore the main point, not attack the actual ARGUMENT, but focus on my rhetoric
That's a surefire way to get a fair and proper discussion going.

if i'm good enough that you're fearmongering me like this, give me enough credit to play intelligently and not just do dumb things for the lols, ty

Please keep on ignoring the point of "January made the play and skitter went 'meh' "
It really convinces my read on you

/s

Oh i even have a bunch of relevant quotes from game

*cracks knuckles*
Time to revisit TwofoldC9++ and EMM again for me to demonstrate that you 'demanding scumPT screenshots levels of evidence' is your way of shutting down arguments and scumplay.
Let's completely flood this gamethread with cherrypicked and out-of-context quotes from OTHER games.
This ought to be a doozy.

[Vorkuta]

give me enough credit to play intelligently

It's funny because you're treating me like a 1-trick-pony with a black-and-white townrange and scumrange.

[Vorkuta]

well you've succeeded in pissing me off

ok this would completely undermine my case

But now I'm thinking that I'll be quite butthurt if scum!skitter would resort to such means

[Vorkuta]

I have been attacking your argument, and your methof of delivering it is scummy too

As of recent your focus has shifted towards my delivery, not my core points.

I dont play like that, for the most part

Once again- it's not "directly" your play, but your play "by proxy" which I'm bringing into question.

I dont know what you're talking about

*Disclaimer: the following below is my personal read, based on my experience, and impressions (based on a grand total of 2 completed games 'against' scum!skitter, 1 completed game with IC!skitter, and 1 game against town/skitter)" The following theory is a "work-in-progress" and is undergoing revisions and constantly evolving. It could be BS. Or it could be something. I'd like it to be something.
This has to be said because I foresee myself having to quote this in the near future.

I think one of the ways scum!skitter plays is by shutting down lines of questioning.
Town!skitter is much more openminded, willing to make the logical assumptions/leaps to see where a train of thought would lead for the sake of scumhunting- ie "talk to me more about XXX", and deals with disagreements pleasantly in the form of "I'm not sure that...." or "I don't think...."
Scum!skitter is more interested in redirecting the gameflow and SUBTLY shutting down uncomfortable lines of inquiry and one of the more effective ways I've seen her do it is by inflating the level of proof/evidence necessary for her to acknowledge a claim to a level that is much higher than what town!skitter would require to join along on the journey.
This distinction is what I mean when I say that skitter is shutting down my points/arguments by demanding that I do so much legwork to demonstrate the validity of my case, that it's almost akin to "taking screenshots of the scumPT to demonstrate that this is in fact what's going on". Plus I like the phrasing. It's colorful

I dont know why you think i'm cherry-picking or taking things out of context

I'm preempting something.
We could both go down the rabbit hole of digging choice quotes from random games to prove our points (you for "scum!vork hallucinates stuff up" and me for "scum!skitter demands too much proofs").
We could. It might even be fun to reminisce

The problem with doing that would be
-we clog up this thread
-every quote we come up with will presented all on its own "as is" without the relevant gamestate information
LIKE your Dunn quote just now.
I could dig up the ~5 quotes from that game where I explicitly

and quite successfully IMHO

shut down that line of nonsense from dunn and the relevant back-and-forth necessary to undestand what's up.
I could also waste even more time trying to recall my thought process as I was making said miller push and clearly explain why and how "that 1 miller push I did in that game" is different from "this skitter push I'm doing right now".

Then we'd spiral into cherrypicking, "he-said, she-said", potential gaslighting, "no it happened like THIS!" and all that good stuff.

And i should just ignore meta, you're suggesting?

Aha- double standards time
If you want me to "give you credit" you're going to have to go both ways and acknowledge that my playbook isn't black and white.
Furthermore I could bring up quite a few cases where I "hallucinate things up" as town as well.

i have substantial evidence to the contrary i should just ignore that?

- your evidence is going to be cherrypicked, deprived of context, BS, outdated, invalid, and blah blah blah (see ^)
- defending/explaining myself (as would be fair) would be detrimental to gamestate (see ^)
- your evidence probably will have the underlying assumption that I haven't evolved as a scum player, or never pull the same moves as town (see ^)

[Vorkuta]

pmuch zero actual danger on skitt slot at the time.

*sighs*
Just do this thought experiment with me: put yourself in the shoes of a newbie with an AWOL scumpartner.

Wasn't implied for me.

yes

also
My experience tells me that most """plays""" are rarely "conscious and optimal decisions with well thought out implications" and more "hey bro let's do this!"

but this point does resonate with me

<3

sry for wall. had i more time I would have made it more readable.

+1

except I'm not sorry and my walls are great

[Vorkuta]

half of them are overinflated anyways

It's funny because you're quite more willing to cut through the flowery rhetoric and address the spirit of my argument when you're town.

b) i've refuted the important ones already

"scumPT levels of evidence demanded" is kind of the kicker and it still stands uncontested (fmv).
*reads a bit more*
Oh the irony of you demanding more evidence from me

ok, it's more accurate to say that i don't interact with my partners this way, better?

*scratches head*
shelved for now

where do you think i do this?

in

*cracks knuckles*
Time to revisit TwofoldC9++ and EMM again for me

you're making up reasons to push me

OK

I think I understand what's up.
You guys seem to think what I perceive to be a minor detail (that are just cherries on the cake to me) are my main points, and I'm getting slightly annoyed at the amount of time/effort you're spending attacking things I added as an "afterthought".
Case in point: bailey's dying declaration. It was never the "core" point.
It was always a "hey, IF (insert main point here) THEN it would also maybe explain (casual detail that may or may not fit into the story)"

And you guys are attacking the antecedent.
And I'm like
And as a result you guys seem to have the impression that "oh vork was just BSing the whole time"

this is slightly insightful

don't sidestep it by saying you dont' want to talk about it

I'll play ball even thought I think it's a 1 way road.
Present your best quotes from whatever game.

Or was dunn's the only one?
Because that one sucked.

explain how it's different

*sighs*
Fine I'll be explicit

-The miller push in that game was (1) slightly tailored to curry favor w/ buj and esp. NC, (2) a play to dumb!town myself on a (3) simple target with (4) "0 repercussions" and provide a rocksolid reason to (5) be on a miller wagon in perpetuity
-The push on skitter in this game is clearly (1) not designed to impress anyone, (2) not a way for me to pass as dumb!town, is clearly (3) not on a 'simple target', clearly (4) has repercussions if godforbid I'm wrong about it, and if you succeed in knocking down the crux of my case with this exchange, then (5) I will have no valid grounds upon which to scum read you.
I can be even more explicit if need be

january's indignant response to this accusation

I read it as 30% tongue-in-cheek, 30% defensive, 30% 'lawl you got me, now let me try brushing it off with sarcasm' and 10% slightly forced

[Vorkuta]

i don't think i'm demanding that level of evidence

I think you are.
Back several pages ago when you were pushing the "this play is not mechanically perfect or optimal thus you need to demonstrate that..." point very hard. That's what stuck with me.

i still don't know what this means or how this encapsulates my play

this even resonated with tictac

for different reasons but lets ignore that

so I might be onto something.
I'll dig up quotes later (screen is too small)

i feel like i am ...

yet you were the one dismissing most of my case due to "overdone rhetoric"

or ...

So it's settled then?
We're going to spend most of our time digging up material from old games.
Got it.

because you're making up things and i can't prove negatives

*handwavey dismissal is handwavey*

'minor afterthought details' as such then

I thought it was heavily implied that my minor afterthought details are afterthought, but noted.

i don't think that these points are particularly relevant. the particularly reasons for *why* you did what you're doing i don't think matter really

oh boooooooy. you literally just asked for

i brought a parallel where you've done something similar as scum
don't sidestep it by saying you dont' want to talk about it
explain how it's different

and I'm obliging.

>skitter: *brings up vork's past meta*
>vork: "said past meta is inapplicable in this game"
>skitter: "explain how it's different"
>vork: *explains*

quite very succinctly and even with numbers

>skitter: "I don't think it really matters"

Please tell me how I'm misrepping you in this little TL;DR

my good man, if you do succeed in getting me lynched today i'm going to do everything in my ability to make sure you're next, just letting you know

itsk because I'll be conf!town'd with the other mason when you flip red

you haven't really shown that i've taken it out of context either

I literally gave you numbers to help you keep track

what exactly am i demanding 'screenshots of their scum PT' levels of evidence for even.

I've explained this WITHOUT flowery language already. We should be on the same page by now with this. Come on.

*Disclaimer: the following below is my personal read, based on my experience, and impressions (based on a grand total of 2 completed games 'against' scum!skitter, 1 completed game with IC!skitter, and 1 game against town/skitter)" The following theory is a "work-in-progress" and is undergoing revisions and constantly evolving. It could be BS. Or it could be something. I'd like it to be something.
This has to be said because I foresee myself having to quote this in the near future.

I think one of the ways scum!skitter plays is by shutting down lines of questioning.
Town!skitter is much more openminded, willing to make the logical assumptions/leaps to see where a train of thought would lead for the sake of scumhunting- ie "talk to me more about XXX", and deals with disagreements pleasantly in the form of "I'm not sure that...." or "I don't think...."
Scum!skitter is more interested in redirecting the gameflow and SUBTLY shutting down uncomfortable lines of inquiry and one of the more effective ways I've seen her do it is by inflating the level of proof/evidence necessary for her to acknowledge a claim to a level that is much higher than what town!skitter would require to join along on the journey.
This distinction is what I mean when I say that skitter is shutting down my points/arguments by demanding that I do so much legwork to demonstrate the validity of my case, that it's almost akin to "taking screenshots of the scumPT to demonstrate that this is in fact what's going on".

but i've argued it the way i can, by explaining why

Ok we're fine up until now. However- that's not all you did.
You provided a defense/explanation. Sure. Great. Might even be valid/relevant. Don't care anymore- point is moot, ship has sailed.
Then

in parallel. but semantics

you're all like "substantiate your assertions beyond a reasonable doubt".

Which is my beef with you.

Repeating myself- it's no longer about the specific/concrete responses to my line of inquiry.
It's evolved into the fact that your defense has been 30% {a), b), c) as you mentioned ^} and 70% "do more legwork"
a)- not "I don't play like this", but "prove that I play like this. because I don't"
b)- not "the association doesn't make sense" but "prove that this is optimal play coming from both of us. which it isn't"
c)- not "no motivation for me to do this" but "demonstrate that scum!skitter does this. which I don't"

and that you don't believe them

You have amazing insight into my beliefs

/s

if you can show me you making up bs to push people as town

1- burden of proof is burdeny
2- i'm too embarassed because those were not my best moments
3- too many walls for even ME to parse through
4- I resent your "making up bs" wording. I like how you're

sinking down to my level

adopting my flowery language, but if you're going to take a page out of my book, I'll take a page out of yours.

Kindly demonstrate how any "bs" I have "made up" was "made up" and not "lying around waiting for vork to find it and present it"

[Vorkuta]

vork also basically zero impact.

I would like more from Vork at this juncture as well.

@vork it would be nice if you like contributed tho

*ahem*
Those aren't my "skitter demands for an unreasonable amount of proof while defending" quotes
These are

Spoiler:

Again, said in the main thread because ...

"demonstrate why scum wouldn't make a tongue-in-cheek comment"

Explain this very slowly

- why does this distancing need to happen ?
- why is bailey's dying remark relevant here ?
- why doesnt january vote me if we're distancing ?

not "explain" but "prove that this is optimal".
Word choice is convenient- the meaning behind it is straight forward in context

B) why does bailey saying it's me mean me/january need to distance

cherry on top of the cake but

Why do *i* decide this is a good idea here

"demonstrate how this is mechanically perfect enough for me to do"

and if you want more from other games then
also skitter's progression in her ISO is quite interesting to read

[Vorkuta]

Plz no lynch before replacement, ty

UNVOTE:

[Vorkuta]

Please welcome them!

VOTE: Karnage gotcha

[Vorkuta]

If January were to flip town, would you still be scum reading skitter?
If not, then do you think it could be better to lynch january instead of skitter?
If you would still scum read her, then who is her partner if jan flips town?

I think that skitter's scum!partner is gated until skitter hangs.
Looking back at it, I slightly regret making the gamestate skitter v. vork and can see how it's suboptimal to have such a 1v1 early on in D2, but I'm quite sure I've caught scum that it doesn't really matter.

But ok- let's hypothetically assume that BOTH skitter and I could be convinced to calm down for half a second (haaaaaa.... no) and stop being at each other's throats enough to scumhunt OUTSIDE vork v. skit
-Where would we start?
-

Skitter

the louder scum!partner will find creative ways to disrupt legitimate inquiries and have several red herrings/wild-goose-chases planned for us

Either way-

as I've probably said somewhere before

my jan push was primarily a way to see whether I could get a read on skitter.
Sure I thought december had scum!equity at the end of D1, but I realized that there was no way we'd get a consensus lynch going for her if she was actually scum.
The same applies to ~3 other people, so my gameplan was to try and scumhunt/PoE the influential/gamestate controlling players {tictac/skit/Zenith} which would allow for us to open up the lynchpool on D3.
Fortunately I think I've hit dirt with skitter, but if things would have gone differently and I legitimately had a town!read on her, I'd move on to a similar grilling of tictac. I'm glad I don't have to seeing as I've played most of my hand this round, but *shrugs*

Sorry what were the questions again?
Ah yes- skitter scum (is now)=> independent of jan thus
1- Jan town!flip -> Yes to scum!skitter flip
2- Skitter optimal flip today as you won't catch her scum!partner with her still alive
3-

this question's wording is painful- who's the first "her" again?

HYPOTHETICALLY if for some miraculous reason jan was the lynch today, I'd look into someone who isn't in control of the gamestate as skitter's scum partner- i.e DDL/Zenith
I'd be butthurt if 2 "loud and good" players managed to weasel their way in to everyone's core!town books while dictating gameflow, so I'm not considering that option.
It's skitter doing the heavy lifting, + someone quiet/playing catchup

[Vorkuta]

Oh shit- I literally just missed Jan chickening out on skitter right now.
Puzzle pieces fall in place.

reVOTE: Skitter

[Vorkuta]

Vork you didnt answer my question in is Jan independly scummy outside of skit scum to you.

Sure I thought december had scum!equity at the end of D1

Did you uhh... completely skip the part where I was giving her a hard time even before I decided to add skitter into the picture?

[Vorkuta]

So again
Did you read the stuff directed towards january (confidence + word choice + snarky remarks) before D2 or not?

Those were genuine. Skitter popped up into my thought process when I actually decided to take the day seriously and solve at the beginning of D2.

OTP scum

This is a highly sub-optimal scum!play and extremely uncharacteristic of how I play scum so.....

those words sound familiar....

[Vorkuta]

Or I'm confusing your arguments

In the next post Karnage has quite decently twisted/perverted my case but has managed to keep the core sentiment intact.

where are you with these 3 atm?

Zenith can be town because I hated D1 and "putting someone to Lylo in RVS" has been beated to death. Might even be scum

driving

fueling the narrative a bit just for the confusion factor.
tictac would've been my next witch-hunt subject if I'd've thought skitter town!told as a result.
I think this comes from scum!skitter in this game so I didn't bother giving everyone a fair inquisition.

[Vorkuta]

and it's not like a skitter vote was anywhere close to going through was it

It was @L-1 while we didn't have our replacement with 2 people not-voting
That's scary lol-hammer territory.

can't really call me out for unvoting

Is your unvote an "nvm skitter is town" unvote? or "I'll get back to the skitter wagon I promise, I just gotta do a few more things first" unvote?
*keeps reading* ah

more of a signal that i'm going to be back and figure things out before i vote

mine unvote was a courtesy "lets not lolhammer before the replacement"

I was just scared that you weren't going to deliver as promised.

[Vorkuta]

ninja'd

pedit

hey thats almost like what I did

[Vorkuta]

Is your unvote an "nvm skitter is town"

I read it as a townreading me unvote but apparently i was mistaken

+1 made same assumption

[Vorkuta]

a specific player, scum in general, or town in general?

It's a good-faith move to prevent a hypo!idiot impulsive townie or hypo!triggerhappy scumpartner from wanting to get everything over with ASAP while she engages with october and tries to develop a read on one/both of us.
Or its merely delaying the inevitable for show.

I swear if you weren't a mason....

[Vorkuta]

that i may be tunneled

you are...?

[Vorkuta]

Ok but you telling me that is not helpful if i am so

Gah you meant town!tunnel. I thought you mean tunnel as a verb/action that anyone can do (ie Robb last game).

yet you were all about getting somebody to L-1 on page 1

once again- I swear if you weren't a mason....
reread stuff; I was the one who was annoyed/demotivated at how 90% of D1 discussion was about that BS, that it was NAI and should stop/move someplace else.
I've never given zenith serious shit for it

[Vorkuta]

I feel warm and fuzzy on the inside now

[Vorkuta]

Sure- when our mason phrases it like that

For the sole purpose of demonstrating that if this is scum!zenith, scum!skitter won't let a lynch on him go through

[Vorkuta]

Dejavu much?

Do you see me voting you?

vork on record on never bussing yet

can confirm

/jan, in that order,

Kindly reclarify this for me?
Is it just because she promised to deliver why she think I'm town and hasn't yet?

[Vorkuta]

Why aren't you?

You're under skitter's protection so there's no point

Either of those things alone seem to be crossing the line into trust tell IMO

Ignore ^, shit like this deserves my vote.

Dignifying it with a response: bussing is suboptimal, and the town points + WIFOM generated isnt worth the loss of a teammate.

hi skitter

That's not to say I won't engage in drama with a scum partner (cats w/ nom as skitter saw), but it was under control and handled """carefully""" to the extent that we knew our drama wouldn't result in a lynch.
Also meta is 100% changeable. FL used to sweart by the "I never bus" mantra.
After 2 games with me, he rephrased that to "I never bus, unless it's vork for the lols"

TL;DR
Your 'vork is trustelling!!' point is ugly and a low blow.