Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

[Zenith]

VOTE: Suspicious

[Zenith]

woah woah woah, I believe that takes him to

L-1.

Scary place to be.

I'm gonna unvote to prevent a hammer.

UNVOTE: Suspicious

I believe he's at

L-2

now

What's wrong with an early L-1?
If scum were on the wagon, would they be more likely to stay there? Or would they be more likely to unvote for potential town points?

FOS

@ Fancy and GeorgeBailey.

[Zenith]

I voted because that's literally the only way to make progress @D1.

Jokes aside, Sus's reaction to said wagon and the follow up interrogation gets him townpoints from me.
But like... come on guys, show a tiny bit of common sense with these questions

What specifically about his reaction makes you give him town points?

If suspicious is scum, I could see him as an easy early bus for easy distance. But the wagon moved pretty fast, so perhaps his partner got scared and backed off?

[Zenith]

Voting for suspicious wasn't a mistake, it was RVS. I intended to put him at L2 but Vorkuta beat me to it by a few seconds. I'm fine with putting someone at L1, though it's probably best done with a disclaimer to notify everyone that they are at L1 and to post intent to hammer before proceeding. Because of the quick unvotes, this wasn't necessary.

I'm fine with leaving my vote where it is for now. Suspicious comes off as fake, which pings my scrumdar.

I want to keep talking with Fancy at the. And I have to say I doubt the initial vote as genuine RVS.

With a name like suspicious, I'd suspect he would be the RVS target in at least half of his games. His words seem to often conflict as well. For example:

It's absolutely likely the wagon was organic due to time conveniences, but the behavior about it doesn't make me lean that way. Consolidation like that makes me think somebody tried to hide because that vote happening to be in vogue at the moment.

I want to keep talking with Fancy at the. And I have to say I doubt the initial vote as genuine RVS.

Absolutely likely the wagon was organic due to time conveniences, but also not?

woah woah woah, I believe that takes him to

L-1.

Scary place to be.

I'm gonna unvote to prevent a hammer.

UNVOTE: Suspicious

I believe he's at

L-2

now

What's wrong with an early L-1?
If scum were on the wagon, would they be more likely to stay there? Or would they be more likely to unvote for potential town points?

FOS

@ Fancy and GeorgeBailey.

In the heat of an early game, if no one is paying close attention, a careless vote/vote for fun can suddenly turn into a majority vote and an immediate mislynch. Not very likely, but not something that should be a threat on the first page of a game. Scum can either sit here or back off; are you implying the vote was scum stacked here?

I voted because that's literally the only way to make progress @D1.

Jokes aside, Sus's reaction to said wagon and the follow up interrogation gets him townpoints from me.
But like... come on guys, show a tiny bit of common sense with these questions

What specifically about his reaction makes you give him town points?

If suspicious is scum, I could see him as an easy early bus for easy distance. But the wagon moved pretty fast, so perhaps his partner got scared and backed off?

Bussing this early makes no sense; a flip wouldn't give any credibility or implicate anyone. There's no benefit for that play, and realistically a lynch on page 1 is highly unlikely; I don't think a strategy would hinge on that.

Goes from explaining why concerned over a possible quicklynch to dismissing it as highly unlikely in the same post. Things like this concern me. His play so far feels icky, and doesn't come across as town trying to hunt for scum at all. It feels fake.

[Zenith]

In the first quote you say that the quicklynch is "not very likely" while also expressing concern over the possibility. In the second quote the language changes to "highly unlikely" with reasoning for why it wouldn't happen.

[Zenith]

You also jumped on that pretty fast. First with denial, then with deflection/misdirection. Given that I'm the only one voting for you, what are you so worried about?

[Zenith]

According to Plotinus on page 1: "Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times"

[Zenith]

According to Plotinus on page 1: "Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times"

Uh what was this for?

Nothing in Zeniths posts even hinted at L-1 possibly being a mistake.
You jumping to that conclusion looks like ya assumed benign intent because of informed POW or unreasoned defence because he is your buddy.

However

in his next post zen changes his stance and didn't intend to put sus at L-1 but at L-2 (which ya said would be reasonable),like ya gave him an out he didn't think of himself. I think this is a mild point against you guys having

daytalk

.

I didn't change my stance btw. I meant to put him at L-2. If he had already been at L-2 before I had started writing my post then I would have meant to put him at L-1, though I would have clearly marked him as L-1 with the warning to declare intent and give a chance for dialog before actually hammering. Unlike some people, I'm not afraid to put an RVS at L-1 if done properly. (With the disclaimer.) I actually think L-1 is mostly better than L-2.

[Zenith]

OMGUS

[Zenith]

As I've said before, should make it clear when you are voting someone to L-1. Strong scrum lean on suspicious at this point.

[Zenith]

@Suspicious I'd like to hear your case against me. Do you actually think I'm scum? Or is it mere OMGUS reaction?

[Zenith]

And if OMGUS, are you a perhaps a frustrated townie or an upset caughtscum?

[Zenith]

Are you high?

[Zenith]

"#44 you state that an L-1 is never a bad idea here"
I didn't say that. Also post #44 was made by Plotinus.


"and then you backtrack upon questioning in #126 that L-1 wasn't intentional, and it was supposed to be L-2 instead."
I never backtracked. I intended to vote for you, and would have done so regardless of whether I was voting you to L-1 or L-2.


"Because other unvotes occurred, you believed that clarification was unnecessary; this is despite being put under suspicion and getting questioned for this action. If the L-1 was a mistake, why didn't you say so immediately to clear yourself?"
Um no, because of the unvotes there was no reason to add the disclaimer stating that you were at L-1, because obviously you were no longer at L-1. Voting for you wasn't a mistake, as I've already explained. Clear myself of what?


"You double down in #161 that the L-2 was what you were aiming for, but an L-1 is fine and you have no problem with it; you admit that, however, it should have been given a warning. Which once again begs the question, why did you not offer a warning in the first place? What was left was a naked vote that, if you're town here, caused unneeded confusion."
Huh?? I didn't warn that you were at L-1 because I was putting you at L-2, or would have if Vork hadn't beaten me by a few seconds.


"If you would like to know my case, you'll have to do what you have demonstrated you haven't done and read my ISO."
I've read every single word of this thread. If you had said something along the lines of, "I think Zenith is scum because ___ " Then I wouldn't have asked. Do you actually think I'm scum, and if so then why?


"It shouldn't be my job to reiterate my posts/questions for you"
I don't recall asking you to do that.

[Zenith]

For me to have backtracked, something would have had to change, but my intentions, opinions, and statements, etc have all been consistent. My stance on my RVS vote hasn't shifted at all, and nothing I've said has been contradictory.

I also haven't intentionally misrepresented anyone, doing so isn't my style. Sometimes I might over think things, or read into things that may or may not be there, like with the worried thing, but I always call it like I see it, and unlike you I'm careful not to twist people's words or claim someone said something when they didn't.

[Zenith]

Just a suggestion, but if you insist on disagreeing with my previous post, then perhaps you should post some clear evidence rather than more baseless accusations.

[Zenith]

Putting somone at L-1 is fine, I never said it wasn't fine. I did intend to put you at L-2. I have no issue with putting someone at L-1. When putting someone at L-1 the voter should state that the person is at L-1 to avoid accidental lynch. Someone should also state intent to hammer and wait for response before hammering. There is no contradiction here.

How specifically do you think I misrepresented you? If anything you have misrepresented me. You have flat out accused me of saying things which I never said. Where have I done this to you?

And instead of making claims without backing them up like you have done, I'll post a clear example proving that you have blatantly misrepresented me by putting words into my mouth which I never said:

#44 you state that an L-1 is never a bad idea here

Anyways, I need to sleep now. Keep in mind that if you manage to get me lynched before I return, all eyes should be on you after I flip town.

[Zenith]

I'm not afraid to put an RVS at L-1 if done properly.

Could you clarify "done properly"? I feel like L-1 RVS is incredibly risky at the cost of getting a rando lynched (which is more than likely going to be a town).

By done properly I mean stating for everyone to see that the person is at L-1, and stating that intent to hammer should be made and wait for response before hammering. Basic stuff that everyone other than a complete mafia newb should already know. Basic etiquette to reduce risk of accidental lynches, and intentional lynches disguised as accidental lynches.

[Zenith]

Really? You said:

you state that an L-1 is never a bad idea here

I never said that L-1 is

never

a bad idea.

And who's really being dodgy here? When I ask why you think I'm scum your response seems to be false accusations and telling me to re-read your ISO. Like, are you wanting me to make a huge wall of poo by responding to every single thing you've said in this entire game? If so, then you can duck off with that. If not, then get to the point already. This back and forth is quickly growing old and tiring while not actually getting anywhere fast.

[Zenith]

@Vork A vote claiming to be for pressure actually carries very little to no pressure. Specially when compared to a serious vote on a wagon.

[Zenith]

If you would quit being dodgy by hiding behind your ISO, maybe we could get somewhere.

[Zenith]

Jesus, I haven't even checked in and I almost got bumped off.

VOTE: Fancy

Srs vote?

Do you believe it is?

Ok here's the first question in your ISO.
No I don't think it was a serious vote.

Happy now? I've answered a question from your ISO.

Yes I've read everything you've posted. No, I'm not going to write a response to everything you have posted. As I've already said, you can duck off with that. If you want a specific question answered, you could stop playing games and get to the point already.

[Zenith]

I could turn it around on you and tell you to read my ISO for your answers. I won't, but maybe this will help you see how ridiculous you are being?

[Zenith]

Am liking the recent content from tictac. Think I'll sheep for now and see where this goes.

VOTE: Jamelia
L-2

[Zenith]

@Zenith since you insist on being difficult, start here:

1. w/r/t #41, what is your opinion on the early vote composition? You seem to imply the vote was stacked.
2. w/r/t #128, what are your reads?
3. #127 and #131 directly refute the claims you made earlier against me and demonstrate how you misrepresented my words. You then lean on making stronger language/baseless claims to fit your chosen narrative.
4. w/r/t #138, you had opening scum reads on Bailey and Fancy. You have never explained this or returned to them in any manner. Do these reads still hold, and why make them in the first place?
5. #177 clarified my stance on you again and your shifting re: the L-1 vote. There has been enough talk about that already and it's not worth harping on anymore; as it stands, you went from L-1 = okay to L-1 only okay if warned, to L-1 is better than L-2 but L-2 was the intent, etc. It's like revisionist history.

1. Maybe it means something and maybe it doesn't, but I don't plan to put anymore thought into it because I don't know. Maybe it will be worth coming back to after a flip, but for now I'm moving on.

2. I give my reads as I play. Don't expect a neat itemized list from me because I'm not a fan.

3. They don't refute my claim and I didn't misrepresent you. You said what you said:

Spoiler: #41

woah woah woah, I believe that takes him to

L-1.

Scary place to be.

I'm gonna unvote to prevent a hammer.

UNVOTE: Suspicious

I believe he's at

L-2

now

What's wrong with an early L-1?
If scum were on the wagon, would they be more likely to stay there? Or would they be more likely to unvote for potential town points?

FOS

@ Fancy and GeorgeBailey.

In the heat of an early game, if no one is paying close attention, a careless vote/vote for fun can suddenly turn into a majority vote and an immediate mislynch. Not very likely, but not something that should be a threat on the first page of a game. Scum can either sit here or back off; are you implying the vote was scum stacked here?

I voted because that's literally the only way to make progress @D1.

Jokes aside, Sus's reaction to said wagon and the follow up interrogation gets him townpoints from me.
But like... come on guys, show a tiny bit of common sense with these questions

What specifically about his reaction makes you give him town points?

If suspicious is scum, I could see him as an easy early bus for easy distance. But the wagon moved pretty fast, so perhaps his partner got scared and backed off?

Bussing this early makes no sense; a flip wouldn't give any credibility or implicate anyone. There's no benefit for that play, and realistically a lynch on page 1 is highly unlikely; I don't think a strategy would hinge on that.

And I already responded with #129:

In the first quote you say that the quicklynch is "not very likely" while also expressing concern over the possibility. In the second quote the language changes to "highly unlikely" with reasoning for why it wouldn't happen.

4. I dunno. Still keeping an eye on them, but I'm tired of thinking about the RVS.

5. Again: L-1 is ok, ppl should notify when placing someone at L-1, L-1 is better than L-2 if pressure is the goal, and I did intend to put you at L-2. All of this is true and there is no revision involved.

I'm moving on now. You can keep repeating yourself if you want, but I'll probably ignore it if you do. This back and forth isn't productive. It's a bunch of repetitive crud clogging the thread that I doubt anyone wants to keep reading through, and is likely anti-town at best.

[Zenith]

Am liking the recent content from tictac. Think I'll sheep for now and see where this goes.

VOTE: Jamelia
L-2

Literally LOL at this.

Too much WIFOM here..

@tictac What do you think? Which glass would you drink from here?

[Zenith]

And @Zenith, what was the purpose of #140?

Lol, this coming from the guy who kept telling me to re-read his ISO.
Guess you haven't been paying attention, because I already answered this in #161.

[Zenith]

If you would quit being dodgy by hiding behind your ISO, maybe we could get somewhere.

I could turn it around on you and tell you to read my ISO for your answers. I won't, but maybe this will help you see how ridiculous you are being?

These two quotes are ridiculously transparent and unnerving compared to the context of what people were asking of Zenith. I compare this to myself, where I was answering the same questions and people wanting to dig for more information, Zenith is just refusing to answer questions and using personal attacks. I still have yet to figure out exactly why if they are town, that they would be this defensive over this especially when they "didn't mean to put Suspicious on L-1" (I'll come back to that below).

//When I asked for his case against me he kept saying to read his ISO as if I hadn't been paying attention. it was quite annoying and I don't blame you If you only skimmed through our back and forth. What do you expect from me? Which question did I refuse to answer? Because I don't recall refusing to do anything, other than refusing to write a commentary on every single post in the suspicious ISO.

As far as ignoring things goes, I'm free to ignore whatever I want, for whatever reason I want, and I don't care if anyone dislikes that about me. */

Subject: Newbie 1953 | Zooborns IV | Game Over

So I read through everything and tried analyzing as much as possible. My brain actually hurts from trying to form opinion's of scuminess so, yeah. LOL

I agree with the opinion that Leucostictie is pretty neutral, but I wouldn't agree that he is auto-town or whatever. I appreciate the indepth analysis but I found at times the wording of how townspeople should act to be almost a: "I think this is the way Town in this game should play!" versus "I am town, but I wouldn't be surprised if other Town played this way".

I personally don't blame anyone for voting for someone based on inactivity, including Dyrenz' back on Page 2. He hasn't been on since I've started talking and stuff. I think that voting for someone based on inactivity when I personally haven't seen any overt scuminess makes sense?

That's all I really have right now. This is fun! LOL

^This person here is town!Jamelia. That was post #69
He has opinions and he shares them freely.
He says 'LOL' alot because he is having fun analyzing a game with friends.
He is big into the communal aspect of problemsolving, and correcting each others mistakes. That's why I tried to direct him towards january, because I saw that same attitude in jan. Figured there would be common ground and an easy townread there, but no.
And yeah, this person did have a town quickhammer another town in his first game. He would be very wary of L-1. I believe this person would have unvoted Zen before CJ did, regardless of what his read on Zen was, since there was still time left until deadline.

I strongly believe that the person posting in this thread is not town!Jamelia.
There is not a single 'LOL' in his ISO.

@Jamelia: If I am wrong about something here, please tell me why.
@Others: I think this is the first time Jam randed scum. I'd like to lynch him gently if we can. I recognize that this is a meta-read and as such might not be convincing for all. I encourage everyone to take a peek at Jam-iso in that game, and then tell me if ya think that this is the same person at all.

VOTE: Jamelia

Now that I'm on my computer I can properly dissect and defend myself here. From my experience I believe scum-reading someone based on a meta from 1 game (can't talk about the current one) is very dangerous. I think scum-reading anyone based on their meta from this website is also dangerous. I take into consideration what is happening in this game, and not the history of others. If you're going to lynch me because my behavior on this website is different than from when I first joined, then I probably shouldn't have tried playing another game at all.

Am liking the recent content from tictac. Think I'll sheep for now and see where this goes.

VOTE: Jamelia
L-2

Liking someone's content doesn't mean you have to align your vote with them. After battling Suspicion for a good 5-6 pages now, I am pretty shocked you're voting for me here. In your words, can I ask why you think I am your current scumlead?

//At this point I'd kind of like to pretend that suspicious doesn't exist for a while, otherwise it could be difficult to scumhunt if locked into a pointless death tunnel. Also, I don't recall saying that you are my current scumlead. If I recall correctly, I sheeped tictac. Not because I have to, I wanted to. */

According to Plotinus on page 1: "Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times"

Uh what was this for?

Nothing in Zeniths posts even hinted at L-1 possibly being a mistake.
You jumping to that conclusion looks like ya assumed benign intent because of informed POW or unreasoned defence because he is your buddy.

However

in his next post zen changes his stance and didn't intend to put sus at L-1 but at L-2 (which ya said would be reasonable),like ya gave him an out he didn't think of himself. I think this is a mild point against you guys having

daytalk

.

I didn't change my stance btw. I meant to put him at L-2. If he had already been at L-2 before I had started writing my post then I would have meant to put him at L-1, though I would have clearly marked him as L-1 with the warning to declare intent and give a chance for dialog before actually hammering. Unlike some people, I'm not afraid to put an RVS at L-1 if done properly. (With the disclaimer.) I actually think L-1 is mostly better than L-2.

You would have known you were putting Suspicion on L-1 because you would have gotten a notification showing the previous vote for Suspicion, before you were able to post. So you either ignored that and posted, or you did know you were putting Suspicion into L-1.

//I was multitasking at the time and wanted to get my first post out. If there was a notification then I missed it, because I didn't notice the L-1 until I checked back a few minutes later, at which point he had already been unvoted. I don't understand why people be trying to make an RVS vote into such a big deal. It's been repetitive garbage topic for a while now, like how long does it need to be discussed?

I hopped on the suspicious wagon because that's one of the ways that help me to form reads on people. Then it turned into a big mess that doesn't want to go away. I don't like when people cause messiness. It becomes more difficult to see when people murky the waters, and doing so intentionally seems scummy to me, or anti town at best. */

[Zenith]

Uhm.. There's nothing more to add?

There was speculation about daytalk. So I responded by quoting Plotinus on the issue..

Are you generally incapable of reading?

Please stop projecting yourself onto me.

[Zenith]

More blatant projecting yourself onto me. I thought i asked you to stop that. I even said please.

[Zenith]

I mean seriously you're not making any sense.

You asked me a question i had already answered, so I answered it again. Somehow that wasn't good enough, so I answered a third time with clarification to make it as clear as possible. Like, there's nothing to defend there, and how am I dodging when I answered the same ducking question 3 times??

If anyone is insulting you, it's you insulting yourself. You're like a broken record of falsely accusing me of doing the things that you have done. I could go through and point out a list of such activity, but I'm not really in the mood to re-read that mess of a back and forth right now. Maybe I'll get around to that eventually if someone insist, but right now I've got a fever and dealing with your crazy isn't helping.

[Zenith]

FancyPants^0.5 has been nudged^{Rule 13}.

Isn't fancy V/LA for the weekend?

Afk until Monday, world cup quarter final tomorrow and I'm either getting sad drunk or happy drunk.

V/LA noted --P

[Zenith]

Nevermind, just re-read rule 13. I should probably take a break to get some rest before Suspicious' crazy rubs off on me.

[Zenith]

Let's see, what has ceejayvinoya done so far?

-14 posts total, half of which are blatant inconsequential fluff posts.
-A naked vote on me, and a naked townread on Fancy.
-Has said my name 6 times, sheeping without adding anything of substance.
-Other than the naked town read on fancy, hasn't mentioned any other player besides me.
-And then there's this interesting little tidbit:

VOTE: CJ
The more pages that pass without him making a first post, the townie he is.
This was too early.

Hey I'm trying to give effort here and play better.

I don't want to be well known

that

way

I asked a question early, please answer when you're caught up.

Yeah yeah I saw it, I don't feel like answering it yet tho. It forces a half baked read out of me.

Try again later.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya
Hello CJ..

[Zenith]

Effort isn't AI. Whether someone is extremely inactive, or going the extra mile putting in crazy effort, you'll find both town and scum everywhere throughout that spectrum.

[Zenith]

However ya currently voting CJ for inctivity..
Or are ya saying ya think refusal to answer questions is scum indic?
This question mostly rhetorical, but ya can answer if ya like

Voting CJ because I want to.

As for refusing to answer questions, I suppose it would depend on the person and the questions, but in general I view it like deciding to name yourself something like Suspicious. It's likely going to draw some negative attention.

I don't see a clear town or scum motivation for intentionally drawing negative attention to oneself, so I don't view it as AI. Trying to read too deeply into such motivation from the outside, eventually WIFOM or lack of info can block the way. Peering too deeply into a WIFOM situation tends to short circuit my mind, which is why I typically only glance at such situations, and is part of why I asked you about Jamelia earlier.

[Zenith]

Why are you so frustrated that you'd rather be lynched?

Rule 23: "Play to win - this particular game, not some future one, and keep it fun!"

[Zenith]

#284 reads to me as frustration with being meta tunneled by tictac - and honestly i agree it’s a very bad reasoning to fully base a lynch on. at best it’s NAI (just frustration) but it kinda leans to me as mafia frustrated at being scumread for some dumb reason

might be my confirmation bias or something, don’t feel like it was at all towny though

I feel the exact opposite; I don't have any meta on Jam, but I don't think scum crumbles this easily. No defense, straight to a half-hearted AtE; it's lackluster play and feels more like a townie feeling they've been dealt an injustice.

It reads more like an overreaction to me.

welcome welcome

don’t really think anything ceejay has done is particularly scummy and i’d like to at least give skitter a chance to play - can we not vote her today pls

Ok..
VOTE: january

[Zenith]

you're clearly misunderstanding what i'm saying... ceejay was completely null. they weren't particularly towny or scummy. the reason people were voting them is because they weren't contributing. so what i'm saying is to take the votes off the new player so we give them a chance to contribute, and then determine whether they're town or not. I'm not giving them any more of a pass than I'm giving any of my other nullreads.

Since when does voting for someone prevent them from contributing?

[Zenith]

Actually before we get into point 2, what do you think 'bus' means @zenith?

welcome welcome

don’t really think anything ceejay has done is particularly scummy and

i’d like to at least give skitter a chance to play - can we not vote her today pls

you're clearly misunderstanding what i'm saying... ceejay was completely null. they weren't particularly towny or scummy. the reason people were voting them is because they weren't contributing.

so what i'm saying is to take the votes off the new player so we give them a chance to contribute

, and then determine whether they're town or not. I'm not giving them any more of a pass than I'm giving any of my other nullreads.

Since when does voting for someone prevent them from contributing?

well if they get lynched they can't contribute can they

i'd assume a vote at this point in time is a vote to lynch, so i'd rather not lynch someone who's at best null?

is there any reason you're voting me or is it just an "i don't like what you said" vote

Following the bolded parts, it seems like a bit out a leap. Voting and lynching are not the same thing. Why do you think people vote for their null reads and inactive players?

[Zenith]

And i'm p sure zenith is just scum so VOTE: zenith

I'm not scum.

[Zenith]

Lynching inactive players or null reads is a pretty bad idea, and should be a last resort, done only to prevent a no-lynch if there are no scum reads. Even then, lynching someone for inactivity isn't much better than having a day end in no-lynch. Is much preferable for inactive players to get replaced rather than lynched.

I can't speak for everyone, but voting a null read can be used as a probe to get a better read. Voting an inactive player can be used as a way to attempt changing their behavior, to promote activity and contribution. It should be obvious, but voting isn't always about seriously trying to lynch someone.

[Zenith]

Do you really think scum bus their partners p1?

So if scum were to die in a page 1 RVS wagon, in a newbie game, you wouldn't suspect bussing?

[Zenith]

What do you mean by "no indication of townreading tictac"? It's right there plainly visible in the same post as my sheep vote, so I don't see how you could miss it.

Am liking the recent content from tictac. Think I'll sheep for now and see where this goes.

VOTE: Jamelia
L-2

[Zenith]

Uhmmm what? Liking someone's recent content and sheeping them does imply that I town read them. Why would I make post #217 If I though tictac is scum?

[Zenith]

I mean, I doubt I could have implied a tictac townread more strongly than I did without flat out saying that I townread tictac.

[Zenith]

What do you mean by "no indication of townreading tictac"? It's right there plainly visible in the same post as my sheep vote, so I don't see how you could miss it.

Am liking the recent content from tictac. Think I'll sheep for now and see where this goes.

VOTE: Jamelia
L-2

I meant no indication before that post

My read of tictac was more null before the recent activity I mentioned in that post.

[Zenith]

I haven't been sick in years, but this is really kicking my ass. Body aching, weak, can barely move to bathroom and back, off and on mild to moderate fever, feel both too hot and too cold at the same time, intermittent headaches, need to blow my nose but I'm scared of causing another nose bleed, and my lungs are jacked up in a way that breathing normally I sound kind of like a purring cat.. It's kind of driving me crazy.

Anyways, hopefully this doesn't last too much longer. I expect if I'm feeling better I'll be a better scumhunter D2. Would be nice to have some flips to work with. Right now it's kind of difficult to think clearly.

[Zenith]

@zenith i hope you feel better!!!

@ddl: those are actually p good posts
also i'd feel bad lynching someone that sick who couldn't respond well so

VOTE: george

Thanks, I hope it ends soon. Been taking a bunch of bc powders and sleeping a lot. That seems like probably a bad reason not to lynch someone, but considering the situation I probably shouldn't complain. Feel free to push as hard as you want D2.

yea CFD always such a good idea /s

What is CFD?



Anyways, we are getting pretty close to deadline so..
UNVOTE:
He's pretty good at creating an obfuscating mess to hide behind when pushed, which I'd like to avoid, but my #1 scum read at this point is suspicious.

I'll vote after I catch up on the thread, and also list everyone I'd be willing to lynch if I have to compromise, so we can go from there and hopefully avoid a no-lynch.

[Zenith]

well this vote is very split lol

does either person voting me have any reason behind the vote or are they both still votes for pressure even though we're at a point where we should be actually voting to lynch

@Vorkuta
@Zenith

#333

[Zenith]

You've caught me, this is my blazing scumtell. Gosh darn, I though I had ya.

wow! are you claiming mafia too!

hi there partner

Wth?

[Zenith]

All caught up.
VOTE: Suspicious

I have mixed feelings on Jan and Jam. Need to do a proper analysis on them but right now I just don't have it in me to do full analysis. Would be willing to lynch either of them if needed to avoid a no-lynch, but would rather wait until I can better sort them D2. Would prefer to lynch my #1 suspect Suspicious.

At least there is a good bit of content to work with, so hopefully some flips will help to sort through all of the activity so far.

[Zenith]

my #1 scum read at this point is suspicious.

Aight, but why? The constant Q/A that was going on?

If so, what about it makes him scum?

My previous reasons + lack of other scum reads + his recent activity hasn't done him any favors. I took a step back for a while to cool off and because our back and forth wasn't going anywhere, but my feelings haven't changed.

[Zenith]

@Jan

Yes.

[Zenith]

UNVOTE:

Well it seems like 2 out of the 3 people on my scumdar are conf town. Unless someone counterclaims, though I doubt scum team would be dumb enough to claim masons D1. Maybe it makes my ego feel slightly better that they were secret buddies with their own secret PT.

Need some time to re-read and analyze everything.

Whats the case on Bailey?

[Zenith]

Er, Why exactly? I knew the two biggest wagons were town getting lynched on shaky ground. And it still is. I have no problem voting Zenith or Suspicious. How am I more suspicious than Zenith exactly?

You still want to vote for Suspicious?

[Zenith]

You still want to vote for Suspicious?

Well yeah, his constant berating. His ego vote. But It doesn't matter much. seems like people have their mind set on me right now. Especially Vork, who.... Town read me, then voted for me?? Where's the defense buddy?

I guess I should have just voted on one of the wagons instead of defending them lmao. They were both just kinda shitty though. Would rather vote someone I think is scum than vote a town out for the sake of lynching.

VOTE: Suspicious

Umm I'm confused. Does that mean you are counterclaiming? Because if not, why are you voting confirmed town this close to deadline?

[Zenith]

anyways i realize i'm picking a fight with a clear for no reason but i'm just really really amazed at how easy Jamelia just... makes up things...

good thing you're dying soon

Huh? Planning to use your NK?

[Zenith]

I know, but that doesn't confirm them.

UNVOTE: .

I guess we gotta wait for DDL and Skitter to swoop in for the final vote.

I'm even more confused now. Unless someone counterclaims, they are confirmed town. That's how this works right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Zenith]

If someone was tracker, or another powerful role, why would they counterclaim? Scum would know who to target for N1 NK.

Because trading 1 PR for 2 scum means that town wins?

[Zenith]

Jug I'm reading the setup correctly, it looks like with masons there is 50/50 chance of the setup either having 2 goons, or 1 goon and a mafia roleblocker.

I think I'd prefer matrix6.

[Zenith]

If* I'm reading the setup correctly.. Weird autocorrect.

[Zenith]

Ah, true. No offense to RadiantCowbells, but NewD3 seems kind of bleh.

[Zenith]

Not sure how to feel about Jamuarnelia mixing me up with Vork.

[Zenith]

Tbh my reads are pretty shot right now. I mean, I've still got town lean on tictac and skitter, but at this point maybe that means I should be voting for one of them..

[Zenith]

What push? x,X

[Zenith]

Anyone know what the current VC is?

[Zenith]

Bailey's flailing so hard and voting conf town in 579. This is flipping red

Why would scum vote a confirmed town? It doesn't make sense.

Much more likely bailey was just confused. I don't see that particular incident as AI.

[Zenith]

Also if I wanted to vote for the sake of lynching, I'd go for DDL who's been quite absent.

ew I literally told you my internet has been ip blocked, and this is consistent with my activity in all my games.

Your IP was blocked, but you are still here?

[Zenith]

VOTE: tictac
Because I townread tictac.
And I'm probably wrong..

[Zenith]

Frankly I find your distrust a little insulting.

Last time I checked there are only 2 confirmed town in this game.

[Zenith]

yes but I'm not going to fake rl reasons just to be townread shithead.

also why are you voting your townread

I didn't accuse you of faking anything.

Also, I said why I voted a townread. I don't trust my reads right now. Because of the masons, I'm exploring the possibility that my reads have been backwards.

[Zenith]

@Suspicious Anything useful come from the mason PT? Normally it would probably be for the best to wait before sharing, but I'd be surprised if you aren't tonight's NK target, and with the other mason gone, might as well go ahead and share.

[Zenith]

A) you're portraying this to be a lot more common than it actually is - i rarely see people giving that much weight to lynched town's reads, more weight is usually given to nks' reads

I can see how it could make sense to put more weight on the NK reads. Because why did scum choose that player for death, maybe they were onto something?

Though in this particular game I doubt there will be much to read into NK motivations, beyond not wanting to bring confirmed masons into endgame. Whether the masons were onto something or not, they seem to be the most likely NK target.

[Zenith]

This really sucks. Since suspicious didn't actually claim mason, I was hoping that maybe it was done kind of trap set by the tracker or something. We've got no real PRs, though the masons would have been useful for PoE in endgame if they hadn't been outed D1. Then there's no real useful info to glean from the NKs. All we really have to go on is the back and forth between players, which has been confusing me. I mean who is october and september? Are we just referring to january as any other month for some reason? Id's it some kind of weird code? And to top it all off, I voted for long night to give more recovery time, but I'm only slightly better.. I feel kinda useless here. Probably need to re-read the game and ISO's, but I get the feeling that it won't help ease my general confusion.

What do you guys do when you get stuck, having difficulty forming decent reads?

[Zenith]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

[Zenith]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

well, kinda, he's trying to scare you into paranoia lynching me

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Correct
Excellent

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

There are many people who brag about such abilities/skills (particularly in their sigs), but IMHO skitter is someone who's probably actually legitimately deserved phrases like these thrown her way

If reading skitter is futile, then my options seem to be: ignore her, vote her, or sheep her.

Based on all the above, it seems like I can choose to hope skitter is town, or fear that she's scum. If that's the case, the former sounds preferable.

VOTE: Vork

What do you guys do when you get stuck, having difficulty forming decent reads?

I give you the 3 "sh"s
Whenever I'm stuck in a game, I either shitpost, sheep, or shut up and pray night actions make the game easier

Spoiler: Hid animated gifs --P

[Zenith]

I don't know how I feel about skitter, but Vork's hypothesis in 774 makes sense to me and it does sound like skitter this game.

There's likely a decent chance Vork is scum, because I honestly don't see Vork being scum. I explored the possibility but just don't see it.
UNVOTE: Vork

@Vork
If January were to flip town, would you still be scum reading skitter?
If not, then do you think it could be better to lynch january instead of skitter?
If you would still scum read her, then who is her partner if jan flips town?

[Zenith]

Time to revisit TwofoldC9++ and EMM again for me to demonstrate that you 'demanding scumPT screenshots levels of evidence' is your way of shutting down arguments and scumplay.

?
I dont know what you're talking about
I dont know what 'demanding scum pt screenshot levels of evidence' means exactly, or how i'm meant to be doing that

I dont know why you think i'm cherry-picking or taking things out of context, your cinnamon push in cats (wherein i accused you of making stuff up and grandstanding) was a major reason why i scumread you there day1

And i should just ignore meta, you're suggesting?
So when january goes 'i dont think scum vork makes stuff up to push a lynch' and i have substantial evidence to the contrary i should just ignore that?

"scumPT levels of evidence demanded" is kind of the kicker and it still stands uncontested (fmv).
*reads a bit more*
Oh the irony of you demanding more evidence from me

because i don't understand what this means or where i'm doing it
i don't think i'm demanding that level of evidence
i don't understand how what i'm asking is demanding this level of evidence

if i understood what this meant or where you think i'm doing this i could respond to it better but as of right now i can't respond to this because i still don't know what this means or how this encapsulates my play

can you like quote something of mine and explain exactly why/where/how you think i'm doing this ? that might help

I don't believe you when you say you don't understand what "scum pt screenshot levels of evidence" means. It's kind of self explanatory. You seem too smart to not know know what it means, specially considering how tictac 773 already explained it for you.

I don't know why town skitter would lie about this.
The lie coming from scum skitter sort of kinda fits into the vork 774 hypothesis, but still seems quite odd. But I really don't see you still not understanding the meaning.

FOS: Skitter

Because I don't like voting when not caught up with the thread.

[Zenith]

All caught up.

VOTE: skitter

Don't really want to clog up the thread by commenting on everything in the vork vs skitter back and forth, but overall vork makes more sense to me than skitter. Things like 791.

you know what, i don't think this is a fruitful conversation
we're either communicating horrifically or you're scum

i don't think this is going anywhere

@ everyone not named vork, if you'd like to talk to me about my play, please let me know

I can relate with the feeling. Reminds me of me vs suspicious, which turned out to be tvt, but my gut says there's a good chance of at least 1 scum between vork/skitter.

Is a vork/skitter scum team possible? Probably just a paranoid thought, but if true I think we are ducked.

[Zenith]

I don't know why town skitter would lie about this.
The lie coming from scum skitter sort of kinda fits into the vork 774 hypothesis, but still seems quite odd. But I really don't see you still not understanding the meaning.

no, i don't understand what it means in this context
no, i wouldn't pick a fight over this as scum, i would just try to appease him and move on
no, i wouldn't lie about this as either alignment, i don't understand what he wants and as scum i don't play dumb, ty

demanding proof vs looking for evidence that the opinion is arrived at in a natural way.

Which part do you not understand?

[Zenith]

what i am demanding proof about vs looking for evidence that the opinion is arrived at in a natural way

i don't know what we're applying that to ^

Thats what he means when he mentions scum pt screenshot level of evidence. It's just a more flavorful way of saying concrete proof.

I can buy that you don't know where he is claiming that you demanded such a thing.

Spoiler: like here

Ok we're fine up until now. However- that's not all you did.
You provided a defense/explanation. Sure. Great. Might even be valid/relevant. Don't care anymore- point is moot, ship has sailed.
Then

in parallel. but semantics

you're all like "substantiate your assertions beyond a reasonable doubt".

Which is my beef with you.

Repeating myself- it's no longer about the specific/concrete responses to my line of inquiry.
It's evolved into the fact that your defense has been 30% {a), b), c) as you mentioned ^} and 70% "do more legwork"
a)- not "I don't play like this", but "prove that I play like this. because I don't"
b)- not "the association doesn't make sense" but "prove that this is optimal play coming from both of us. which it isn't"
c)- not "no motivation for me to do this" but "demonstrate that scum!skitter does this. which I don't"

I could understand you claiming ignorance of of denying having an unreasonably high standard of evidence, that's not the point here. I don't buy that you don't understand the meaning of the accusation after it has been explained.

[Zenith]

of or* denying

[Zenith]

concrete proof for what argument ffs

what does he want concrete proof for? or what does he think i want an unreasonably amount of evidence for

that's what i'm confused about and what i've been trying to say
it's a phrase that he's bandying about but i don't. know. what. argument. it's being. applied. to. other. than. in. a. vague. generic. sense.

How is that relevant to my point that you know what the phrase scum pt screenshot levels of evidence means?

[Zenith]

I mean I even spelled it out in #817. Even though I responded to your question, I clarified: "that's not the point here."

And yet you still chomp down on that distraction while ignoring my point..?

[Zenith]

Oh and sorry, just realized you are at L-1.

[Zenith]

of course that's the point

ok
spell it out like i'm 5 because i'm obviously not getting it:
a) articulate what the phrase 'demandign scumpt screenshot levels of evidence' is being applied to.

tell me in your own words where and how i'm doing that,

don't just quote vork
b) what point do you think i'm ignoring?

Where, how, who doing what, when, why, whatever, etc is irrelevant to my point.

The point is that you know what the words: "demanding scupt pt levels of evidence" mean. It means demanding concrete proof. You have been repeatedly told what it means. You do know what it means.. And yet for some weird reason, me trying to get you to admit that you understand basic english, you act like I'm trying to pull out your teeth or something. WHY?

[Zenith]

I don't know how I can be any more clear than that.

[Zenith]

UNVOTE:
1. I don't think I can strawman my own point.
2. I never believed you didn't understand the phrase.
3. I wasn't the only one who misunderstood/took your words at face value.

[Zenith]

Is anyone else curious about what was said in the mason pt? I doubt there would be anything useful for solving the game there, but maybe?

[Zenith]

2. I never believed you didn't understand the phrase.

You were literally just pushing me on this basis

No I wasn't..

[Zenith]

i mean ...

would you like to respond to 851 now?

Why?

[Zenith]

What point? I never claimed that you were demanding any level of evidence. So I don't see where you are going with this.

[Zenith]

can you articulate what vork was accusing me of, yes or no?

like can you actually describe where i was demanding scumpt screenshots levels of evidence?

i don't care whether or not you accused me of this rn, i just want to know if you can coherently answer this question ^

Just skimmed your iso. I've seen you disagree with and dismiss things, but I haven't seen you blatantly demand scum pt screenshot levels of evidence. If you have done such a thing, I've either missed it or it's subtle, because I only see it coming from the re-wording in Vork's narrative, and even there it isn't blatant.

Also, this jumped out at me:

- if you think you caught my newbie partner why are you voting me. This whole thing reads like you found a narrative to push so you are, not like you actually believe a me/january team

VOTE: Vork L-1
@Vork
Please respond to #805.

[Zenith]

Very strange, i wanted to link to post 805 in my last post. I used the post tag, but maybe because I included the # is why it links to some other thread??

[Zenith]

VOTE: Vork L-1
@Vork
Please respond to #805.

Explain why the change?

What change?

[Zenith]

@drdo
Where has skitter demanded scum pt screenshot levels of evidence? If you can find where she has clearly done this, then I'll be willing to vote her with you.

I was also drawn into Vork's narrative a bit. There are some things in there that make sense to me, and looks like he is trying and maybe found something, but upon closer inspection there are things coming from his perspective that really don't belong, but you don't notice the finger in the soup because it was well prepped and delicious.

Just saying, maybe you should re-read their ISOs with that in mind, and keep an eye out for skitter demanding scum pt screenshot levels of evidence. Also keep an eye out for Vork manipulating skitter's words to fit into his narrative. The soup tasted good at first, but when I noticed the finger I had to spit it out.. <_>

[Zenith]

Sure- when our mason phrases it like that

For the sole purpose of demonstrating that if this is scum!zenith, scum!skitter won't let a lynch on him go through

Sounds like something opportunistic scum vork might say to set up a skitter lynch tomorrow, since it doesn't seem to be happening today.

Yeah

My push on december AT LEAST has the distinction of how I think she would behave if she were town in that scenario, and why her overly-concerned nature comes from scum and not town.

I'm pretty sure this is just a kneejerk OMGUS vote + "how could you betray me like this even though 300 posts ago you thought I was town" + "desperate attempt at literally anything a second before the deadline".
I don't want to say "classic scum flailing", but pretty damn close to it.


Also if I wanted to vote for the sake of lynching, I'd go for DDL who's been quite absent.
Maybe skitter considering she's V/LA, or Zenith because it would be so simple and I'd get literally no blowback.

[Zenith]

Sure- when our mason phrases it like that

For the sole purpose of demonstrating that if this is scum!zenith, scum!skitter won't let a lynch on him go through

*sighs*
I can buy it knowing the mason pair
VOTE: bailey

Dejavu much?

[Zenith]

This is exactly what scum rb said in mini normal 2046.

I don't even remember that you offered to lynch january on day 1... was january your town read at that point?

well, I think 'follow the conftown' is a pretty commonsense strat so not surprising that other people have thought about it too.
and yes, I did tr january at the time.

this is possibly the scummiest thing you've said

okay. I still think it's a good strat tho.

VOTE: Zenith

Spoiler: HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA

[Zenith]

Do you see me voting you?

Why aren't you?

vork on record on never bussing yet

can confirm

Don't like this, it feels like blurring the already blurry lines between meta and trust tell.
Is one thing to have someone point out a meta tell that you are unaware of, but to confirm that meta tell, plus for it to be something you seem to be aware of.. Either of those things alone seem to be crossing the line into trust tell IMO..

[Zenith]

Also makes me more wary of tictac..

[Zenith]

PEDIT 972 is ???

It makes tictac obvtown

Howso?

[Zenith]

Since you claim to never bus, that means you are confirmed town after a scum flip in which you clearly didn't bus. Right?

Off the top of my head I don't really see a clear downside for you as either alignment, other than maybe if you flip scum first possibly making it a little easier to find your partner, but it sounds good for town play so I wonder why everyone doesn't do this?

[Zenith]

UNVOTE:

[Zenith]

Or maybe I'm just dumb..

[Zenith]

Since you claim to never bus, that means you are confirmed town after a scum flip in which you clearly would have been bussing?

This is confusing..

[Zenith]

possible teams excluding january whom I TR:

doc skitt

i don't think partner-doc pushes skitt in 937

vork skitt

vork on record on never bussing yet doing his hardest to lynch skitt

(ref)

skitt zen

I don't think partner-zen puts skitt to L-1 in 813

don't really think #1 is totally true, at least in 937 all doc did was say nothing skit said made sense - if anything that tends to be a scum/scum interaction from my experience. rather than pushing on partner for being scummy , maf says their partner doesn't make sense. might be more likely in the mafia games i've played that don't have a mafia PT, but either way - don't think it's a good idea to rule that one out yet, unless there was more that i missed

agree with #2, basically uncontested i think

#3 is a maybe, wouldn't rule it out for tomorrow, but yeah for now

I dunno how likely a vork/skitter team is, but the thought has crossed my mind.

Is a vork/skitter scum team possible? Probably just a paranoid thought, but if true I think we are ducked.

[Zenith]

Anyone one else having site issues? Wanted to be on around deadline but the site kept giving me connection error. Even now it's taking around 5-10 mind to decide if it wants to maybe load a page, or not.. It's weird because the rest of the internet seems to be working fine, just this one site having problems. =(

[Zenith]

Ppl be like that's town or that's scum but I just don't see the ai. I just see wifom and people making assumptions about which glass is which, without much in the way of explaining why it couldn't be the the other glass. Meanwhile I'm still suspicious of both glasses and don't really want to drink the koolaid being pushed.

And the site stiill be lagging, but I guess I'm the only one so maybe the site just hates me?

[Zenith]

zen whats ur reads

I don't have any town reads right now.
Skitter scares me in a sort of sneaky way, tictac scares me in an agenda pushing way, jan scares me in a sort of staying mostly off my radar way, and you scare me in a more friendly kind of way.

All I see is wifom. I could see all actions as coming from town or scum and I don't particularly enjoy this feeling.

[Zenith]

Skitter seems like she could want to slit my throat in my sleep, dr and jan seem like they could want to poison my sandwhich, and tictac seems like he could want to tell me to look at something while pointing with one hand and stabbing me in the back with the other hand.

[Zenith]

Hmm... All of a sudden is lagging much less..

I suppose if I were forced to vote someone right now. Due to the events leading to Vork's death I'm most wary of skitter right now.

Plus that skitter signature keeps staring at me.. =\

[Zenith]

Hmm.. Kinda suspicious of everyone so why not? Either scum will hammer or we get one step closer to winning. Kind of ready for this game to end tbh.

VOTE: DrDolittle
L-1

[Zenith]

UNVOTE:
If you aren't just flailing caughtscum, make your case.

[Zenith]

you are literally voting because you're indifferent. Like you have absolutely apathy for the game. well fuck you because i care about the game and I want a scum lynch so if you can hold your horse that would be fantastic.

this whole game you're playing like absolute scum and you're only getting away with things because people think you play the newbie card. I wouldn't be surprised if you are second scum with either skit or jan.

Wow. I unvoted you and gave you a chance to speak and you respond by telling me to hold my horse? Weird.

Not sure why you are replacing out but sorry if I pissed you off somehow. x,X I can understand caring about the game and all, but it IS just a game. It's supposed to be fun, not something to get heated to the point of dropping f-bombs over.

[Zenith]

At this point, I almost want to lynch the slot to save the replacement from having to play catch up in lylo.

@everyone
For or against lynching the slot? Why or why not?

@plot if there is going to be a replacement this late in the game, could the deadline be extended?

[Zenith]

At this point, I almost want to lynch the slot to save the replacement from having to play catch up in lylo.

@everyone
For or against lynching the slot? Why or why not?

@Skitter
@January

Thoughts on lynching DrDo slot?

Would be nice if we could work on figuring this game out, but I'm guessing people are away because of weekend.

[Zenith]

My reads may not be great, but at least they are real.

[Zenith]

I mean hell.. Name something from your reads where you are assuming "this is scummy" or "this is towny" that couldn't have been done by the opposite alignment.

[Zenith]

VOTE: DrDolittle

[Zenith]

Either ddl or tictac is probably scum based on how long tictacs vote has been there.

[Zenith]

UNVOTE:
Because replacement is here.

Also, the Rick and Morty season 4 premier just aired and it was ducking sweet!

[Zenith]

This at least conftownz skitter so that’s good.

Maybe confirmed from your perspective but not from mine, since you could be scum together.

[Zenith]

hey you're still ducking the question

So?

[Zenith]

I think it's scummy that you're refusing to answer that

I think you've been playing the newbie card

And the fact that you're ignoring me saying this makes me think it's true

How is it alignment indicative?

I've already responded long ago. Perhaps it was too subtle, but I think it's pretty obvious that I don't care to elaborate further.

I also don't care what you think of me. Nor will I ever care in future games, regardless of alignment.

[Zenith]

Ppl be talking like you some mafia genius. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't, I'm probably too dumb to know the difference, but from where I'm sitting it seems like you merely have a strong reliance on meta. Meta and assumptions. If you don't know something then just an assume an answer and go from there. Right?

[Zenith]

Well since you like meta so much, I'll give you this spoiler. I'm just being me, and my future meta will likely include potential lynchbait as a result of that, regardless of my align, because I really don't care about things like my appearance. Not that I care about nothing, as I'd like to be able to help solve games and improve at reading people.

[Zenith]

Welp it's zenith/january

If this were true, then why am I not voting right now?

[Zenith]

I'll go ahead and post my intent to hammer though, because I think he's scum.

[Zenith]

Just in case my intent to hammer wasn't clear, teacher will at least have the time to catch up and give thoughts before my vote.

[Zenith]

Ok time to end this.

VOTE: teacher

[Zenith]

Skitter was acting weird yesterday. Scum lean on skitter right now.

@january I'm not a fan of quickhammers. If I hadn't unvoted then your vote would have been the hammer. I've stated my thoughts on the issue earlier in this thread. It's common courtesy to state intent to hammer, wait for response, then either hammer or not hammer.

[Zenith]

As soon as it seems like ddl/teacher is most likely going to be lynched, she starts acting weird. It's also kind of strange she's been on every lynch so far cept for when we finally lynch scum.

[Zenith]

soz i haven't been online for a little whille

yeah this basically confirms dolittle/teacher imo

but at the same time... what kind of mafia actually reacts that way in response to getting voted??

anyways this is way too much thinking for my peabrain and i'd rather get this over with if my one and only unchangable townread was wrong

sorry for voting u out so quickly but there isn't much you can do to redeem your slot and POE dictates this

VOTE: teacher

Based on the above posts I thought you had intended to hammer, but now I'm kinda suspicious..

@january I'm not a fan of quickhammers. If I hadn't unvoted then your vote would have been the hammer. I've stated my thoughts on the issue earlier in this thread. It's common courtesy to state intent to hammer, wait for response, then either hammer or not hammer.

is this an answer to 1161? it doesn't really answer the question of why you unvoted

if you hadn't unvoted of course i would state intent to hammer before hammering

i was asking why you unvoted in the first place. you put DDL in L-1 but then unvoted and i'm wondering why you did that

Which unvote specifically are you asking about?

[Zenith]

As soon as it seems like ddl/teacher is most likely going to be lynched, she starts acting weird. It's also kind of strange she's been on every lynch so far cept for when we finally lynch scum.

- what does 'acting weird' mean?
- this isn't just to massage my ego, i'm actually going somewhere with this: do you know what the banner beneath my name is for?

Acting weird as in like posts: 1130, 1144, 1146.
And I'd guess it means you are difficult for people to read?

i'm leaning towards zenith rn for the following reasons:
- the first ~6 pages of the game were p awful
- i feel like he's been relying on the newbie card to skate by for much of the game but many of his (esp. early posts) belie that he has a deeper understanding of the game
- the vote/unvote with ddl yesterday was weird af
- overall don't have a reason to tr him rn, but i do think january has been kinda townie

I guess we lose then. Oh well, maybe next time.

Also, I never played a newb card wth you still talking about? If anything, I guess you could call it a null card? Or at least, you could call it a null card if you haven't paid attention to my posts.

Spoiler: really?

If you look at my ISO, I've been dropping obvious jargon since my second post. I thought I made it quite clear in post 163, but I guess not clear enough.

Given the above, I'm surprised someone of your caliber would be pushing this newb card narrative. It relies on baseless assumptions while also ignoring contrary evidence.

[Zenith]

Acting weird as in like posts: 1130, 1144, 1146.
And I'd guess it means you are difficult for people to read?

ok i thought you were going somewhere else with being weird
why is being weird scummy in this context ?

Timing.

Also, if anyone is has been playing any kind of experience card, it's you. It's miss look at my banner look at my sig.

[Zenith]

I can see where this is probably going. You're probably going to vote for me, in which case I'm going to vote for you, and then either scum january hammers one of us, or town january is up against the scary bogeyman that is scum skitter and gets to decide who wins. Sound about right?

[Zenith]

Tbh you rubbed my gut weird yesterday, but with january post 1164 rubs me the wrong way when combined with 1128 and 1129.

Did you also get the impression that she mistakenly thought she had hammered at the time, or am I just trippin?

[Zenith]

Ok, let's see if I can explore and put into words what my gut is telling me.

It feels like from pretty early on and throughout the game you've been consistently throwing shade my way but not really trying to get me lynched too early. It feels like you have been setting me up as lynchbait for scum win. I don't care what I look like, sometimes I flat out ignore direct questions, or answer them in a subtle way, because why not? Wouldn't be surprised at all if this makes me come off as scummy at times, or an easy target. Which is why I think it would make sense for scum to cast shade my way while keeping me around to the end. And so here I am in lylo despite my lackluster play. Who has been casting shade on the easy target?

[Zenith]

Throughout the game, did you think the ddl slot is scum? Why/why not? Why weren't you on the wagon?

[Zenith]

Also just curious, but if you don't mind answering a meta question, do you think your clout often results in town skitter being NKed?

[Zenith]

ok i'll drop the newbcard thing because it seems to be annoying you

It's not annoying me. If you have a point to make then feel free to make it.

and fair enough wrt the experience card ... you didn't make the argument i thought you were going to so i'll drop it for now

What argument did you think I was going to make? From my perspective it looks like you want to drop it because your main excuse for simultaneously casting shade my way while also giving me an endgame pass just fell apart. Perhaps you need some time to alter the narrative?

[Zenith]

@Zenith I'm talking about this unvote

UNVOTE:
Because replacement is here.

I'm not sure if you're just misunderstanding what I said, but this was before I showed any intent to hammer. you unvoted DDL/teacher and I'm asking why?

Uhh.. I think you answered your own question by quoting me. I unvoted because the replacement had arrived, and I wanted to give teacher a chance to speak without being prematurely hammered.

i'm leaning towards zenith rn for the following reasons:
- the first ~6 pages of the game were p awful
- i feel like he's been relying on the newbie card to skate by for much of the game but many of his (esp. early posts) belie that he has a deeper understanding of the game
- the vote/unvote with ddl yesterday was weird af
- overall don't have a reason to tr him rn, but i do think january has been kinda townie

I guess we lose then. Oh well, maybe next time.

does this mean you scumread me?

No, it means I'm town and see myself getting voted by skitter and possibly lynched. I doubt it would be difficult for scum skitter to lynch me, and I think with my being an easy lynch target it makes sense that scum would want me in the endgame.
Iso skitter and ctrl + f me.

Tbh you rubbed my gut weird yesterday, but with january post 1164 rubs me the wrong way when combined with 1128 and 1129.

Did you also get the impression that she mistakenly thought she had hammered at the time, or am I just trippin?

? what? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ???

i think you can't read or something but i was asking you, in 1164, why you unvoted in 1120

given that i'm ASKING you about why you unvoted, i think it's clear that i aware that you unvoted. i thought my question was pretty straightforward so i'm confused why/how you're misunderstanding it lol. does my clarification help you understand now?

At the time, I thought you had intended to hammer. It looked like a goodbye, ya dead now kind of message. Guess I was mistaken.

[Zenith]

ok i'm gonna try one last time to clarify what i'm asking in 1 post
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

before this unvote:

UNVOTE:
Because replacement is here.

DDL/teacher was at L-1. Zenith was the 2nd vote so he's the one who put it in L-1, meaning that he thinks ddl

HAS TO BE mafia

, otherwise he wouldn't risk the vote in lylo.

but when teacher replaces DDL, he unvotes because of the replacement. if he's so sure that ddl was mafia, then why does he unvote there?

i think this is as clear as i can make it, and if it still doesn't make sense then idk

I was confident there was scum between ddl/tictac because of how long tictac's vote had been sitting there. With a small townlean on tictac i leaned more towards ddl being scum. Was an educated gamble based on poe that happened to pay off. I unvoted when the replacement came because common courtesy and I'm not a fan of quickhammers. I'd much rather state intent to hammer and give time for final words than have someone else come along and quickhammer, then have to rely on twilight to maybe get final words or else miss out. Maybe you get some decent info from it and maybe not, but overall it seems like a good habit to practice.

[Zenith]

I'm not confidant about which one of you is scum, but I'm leaning towards scum skitter.

Also, if I had to choose between losing to scum skitter or scum january, I think I'd rather lose to scum january, because I wouldn't want to lose in lylo vs scum skitter with that sig mocking me..

[Zenith]

"Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead. ~ NMSA"

Yea no thanks.. Sorry if this loses us the game, but after considering everything, I think I'll pass on being fed dull razor blades.
VOTE: skitter

If I'm wrong, then sorry and gg.

[Zenith]

Yay! Well, you didn't hammer so that clears you. Meaning I chose right and skitter is definitely scum.

I dunno who you were more likely to vote, though if skitter's half as good as her reputation suggests, i wouldn't be surprised if I ended up being the one lynched today.

Regardless, the power to decide who wins is up to you January. You can eat her razor blades if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Zenith]

If I had to guess what skit was planning, she was going to dig around for things to fit her narrative, any excuse to lynch me, like the newb card excuse shes been setting up the entire game and recently trying to push, then she would have voted me (which she admitted to being the likely scenario) and I would have voted her back, and we would be pretty much in a similar spot to where we are now, with me and skitter pointing the finger at each other, though it would have taken longer.

Maybe it's the honey brandy talking, but if skitter is half as scary as people make her out to be then maybe she wins you over and game over. At least this way I can go down swinging rather than passively waiting for her to slit my throat.

Even if we don't win, I'll still be satisfied about having been able to somehow find both the scum in my first game. ^_^

[Zenith]

I had a good bit of honey brandy and was hyped to have not voted for the wrong person.

[Zenith]

1207 really feels like ur sucking up to a clear was there any point in saying any of that

I mean that and he's basically trying to get you to paranoia lynch me.

@zenith why am i scum?

Because scum january wouldn't have a reason to pass on the chance to hammer.

[Zenith]

I mean ....

Let's try this: why did you vote me instead of january?

I got tipsy, was looking over your iso, considering your potential motivations, weighing chances of skitter scum vs January scum. Was already leaning towards skitter scum, but then the final straw was when your sig looked at me funny and I thought about if I were to lose, who would I rather lose to? So I wasn't super confident but just said duck it and voted you. The brandy probably played a role in me pulling the trigger.

So yea, with january cleared you have to be scum. Like 99.9% sure you are scum, leaving 0.1% for extremely unlikely weirdness, like scum january not wanting to quickhammer for the win, or someone somehow misreading their role pm or something.. I'm not sure why you aren't voting me back yet. It seems kind of strange. There's no chance of January getting lynched at this point, meaning it's just you or me. So unless you want to give up, it would seem like your only chance is to push for my lynch. Why are you stalling?

[Zenith]

Nevermind, you are voting for me. Duunno how I missed that.

[Zenith]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

@drdo
Where has skitter demanded scum pt screenshot levels of evidence? If you can find where she has clearly done this, then I'll be willing to vote her with you.

I was also drawn into Vork's narrative a bit. There are some things in there that make sense to me, and looks like he is trying and maybe found something, but upon closer inspection there are things coming from his perspective that really don't belong, but you don't notice the finger in the soup because it was well prepped and delicious.

Just saying, maybe you should re-read their ISOs with that in mind, and keep an eye out for skitter demanding scum pt screenshot levels of evidence. Also keep an eye out for Vork manipulating skitter's words to fit into his narrative. The soup tasted good at first, but when I noticed the finger I had to spit it out.. <_>

Hmm... All of a sudden is lagging much less..

I suppose if I were forced to vote someone right now. Due to the events leading to Vork's death I'm most wary of skitter right now.

Plus that skitter signature keeps staring at me.. =\

I've had suspicions of you since early on, but have been triple guessing my read of you because of your meta/reputation, and mostly defaulting to giving up and giving you a town pass in the hopes that town skitter would be an asset. I'm not personally a fan of relying on meta, and I'd never go seeking it out myself, but when other people bring it into the game thread, it can bee difficult to ignore. At one point I even defended you because of the town pass, though also because I thought the reasoning for ddl pushing you was rooted in vork's narrative, which was simply wasn't legit/was incorrect. In hindsight though, what have you actually done this game? You've led mislynches and it seems like you've been grooming me to be lynched also..

[Zenith]

You make it sound like I shouldn't even try to read skitter, like I should just hope that she is town because scum skitter sounds scary.

Correct
Excellent

I'm so glad we're on the same page.

There are many people who brag about such abilities/skills (particularly in their sigs), but IMHO skitter is someone who's probably actually legitimately deserved phrases like these thrown her way

[Zenith]

- this isn't just to massage my ego, i'm actually going somewhere with this: do you know what the banner beneath my name is for?

[Zenith]

Gg

[Zenith]

I think I'd prefer matrix6.

A mason pair vs mafia roleblocker.. Why?
Roleblocker useless and no real influence over the game from NK.

[Zenith]

sorry zenith, tough game for you lot
sorry if i went hard i tend to get a little aggressive if i think i found something

i think u played p well actually

why'd you pick tictac last night?

I was considering nokill but teacher advised killing tictac.

Can read about it in the pt if none of my partners opts to lock it up.

[Zenith]

I wanted to be town my first game. Now I'm likely to get meta lynched next time, but idc I'm still just gunna be me. Probably care less about appearances.

I think ddl got kinda pissed over either being bussed, calling me out in thread in response to the bus, or because I mentioned him calling me out in pt. One of more of those 3 is pobably why he replaced. Sry for that, i probably could have been more polite or something. No hard feelings I hope, just trying to enjoy the game, and win. <3

[Zenith]

zenith, i really do think you played v well, i hope to see/play with you again

Thanks and sure, I can only handle one game at a time, but I'll be around.

Spoiler: hmm

And since you so curious, this my first game in around 10+ years.

I wouldn't say I half assed it, but I definitely didn't bring my A-game either. Maybe I'll be able to get more into the game as town.

[Zenith]

I might feign it on occasion, but I almost never really get pissed. Maybe 2-3 times in my life, ever.

[Zenith]

I do recall asking for advice, but don't recall refusing to listen to advice. Nor do I recall thinking that I'm infallible. Nor do I recall claiming to have perfect grasp of game theory. I mean, the main reasons I'd post ideas in pt before acting on them was to get feedback and coordinate..

I also didn't feel like i was very high risk of being lynched until 3 player lylo. I don't think you defending me was a good idea, but i guess you somehow felt more pressure on my behalf than I did? Like.. Just being at L-1 doesn't scare me when I doubt the hammer will come. I even said in my second pt post, before the game even started, to not defend me directly. I never felt like I needed defending, and said multiple times that I wasn't worried.

Sorry if my having opinions about things made you feel like you couldn't speak up and share your own or something. I would have listened to whatever you had to say. Like, I never intended for you to have an excruciating experience. If there's a next time, maybe try to communicate better? I mean we don't have to always agree. We briefly disagreed about the merits of early no lynch, where you flat out refused to hear what I presented on the topic and then you ended the discussion. I didn't understand why you seemed so aggravated, so i just apologized, let you know that I'm socially awkward, and tried to move on.

Anyways i really don't understand why playing with me was such a horrible experience. If it's because I missed a chance to hammer skitter, I didn't notice. I'm not perfect and do make mistakes. We both probably made mistakes, and I'm not upset over it because shit happens. If it's because of the bus, I didn't bus until after you were confirmed scum. If our roles were reversed, I would have probably wanted you to bus me if I were already confscum.

[Zenith]

Also, I don't really want to personally learn the game theory / current metagame. I'll learn through experience and listening to people in the games I play, but I don't intend to follow some guide or change who I am. I'm not the only piece on the board so I can leave that kind of thing to the other pieces. Would be boring if all the pieces were the same, so I'd rather be more unorthodox for the same reason I always open with m12 on the 19x19 goban.