Newbie 1964 [Game Over]

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wow only played with Micc before and like part of a game with Karnage before. How you two doing?
Doesnt seem like I missed all that much.

VOTE: local jones

Because you're the leading poster and I dont feel like anything you're doing is advancing the game at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wow only played with Micc before and like part of a game with Karnage before. How you two doing?
Doesnt seem like I missed all that much.

VOTE: local jones

Because you're the leading poster and I dont feel like anything you're doing is advancing the game at the moment.

I'm doing well, good to see you replace in

thats L-2 btw

Who did you think was voting him?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'd almost feel like policy lynching that slot ngl.

under what policy?

seriously though I don't think that a certain person, not to be rude, but this is my opinion, is going to be very helpful.

Insert something useful here idfk

LCpl Jones may be psychic

Spoiler:

You sure that's who he was talking about? That original post came right after the BB post.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey Zepp, you gonna play or you just gonna screw around? I checked your other games and they are all pretty non helpful content. In the one where you got lynched, you were vt, and still completely unhelpful.

It's too early to talk about a policy lynch, because that type of shit let's scum sit under the radar for longer. But Zepp, you need to try a bit. Culture on this site is to at least try on D1. This bullshit you're pulling doesnt help either wincon.

[Billy Pilgrim]

So what’s the purpose of the vote you made in post 30? You’ve already been in the thread plenty and laid down an RVS vote. What purpose does an additional RVS vote serve? From my point of view the reasons look a lot like you appearing to create content while not actually creating content, which is something you called out as something scum happily achieve by sheeping.

I feel like you're badgering (see what I did there) the LCpl a little bit.

Whats wrong with a second RVS vote? We haven't even had every player post yet I don't think. I made a second RVS vote but for some reason you didn't see the need to comment on it.

Yeah, I've heard that one once or twice.

From a theory standpoint, I see making an RVS vote as unproductive for town. Scum hunting has to begin eventually and a productive member of the town will eagerly make it happen as early as possible. That doesn't really hold true in practice as people love cracking jokes especially with people they are familiar with, but it makes sense from a theory standpoint. I didn't take your post 29 as a RVS vote because you seemed to be trying to actively move the game forward with your other posts, and that's not something I see from LCpl Jones.

Das pretty gay

Feel free to explain your vote. Karnage did ask about it after all.

I’m going with my theory that you wanted to be unnoticed and unproductive until convinced otherwise.

Couldn't sheeping be seen as wanting "to be unnoticed and unproductive until convinced otherwise"? You seem to hold different players to different standards

Yeah, and I think I acknowledged that. At some point you gotta engage and understand if that's the motivation propelling them to sheep or if they are following in the footsteps of a read they believe in that came from a player they believe is town. The former is bad sheeping the latter is acceptable sheeping. LCpl Jones doesn't seem to have looked into BBmolla's motivation for sheeping which is why I'm questioning him about it.

As I explicitly said I didn't think BBmolla was sheeping at that point and I definitely don't think that you should be believed to be town at this point. I find this very scummy of you.

VOTE: micc

Can you explain this? I'm confused by it. The way I understand it is that you dont think BB was sheeping (which to be fair is mostly consistent if not entirely with how you've been talking about this) you dont think that Micc should be townread. I'm unclear on what you think from there makes Micc scummy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wow only played with Micc before and like part of a game with Karnage before. How you two doing?
Doesnt seem like I missed all that much.

VOTE: local jones

Because you're the leading poster and I dont feel like anything you're doing is advancing the game at the moment.

I'm doing well, good to see you replace in

thats L-2 btw

Who did you think was voting him?

In my head I had Micc and BBMolla voting him

What do you make of the fact that hes dominated conversation so much with those two while their votes are elsewhere?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey Zepp, you gonna play or you just gonna screw around? I checked your other games and they are all pretty non helpful content. In the one where you got lynched, you were vt, and still completely unhelpful.

It's too early to talk about a policy lynch, because that type of shit let's scum sit under the radar for longer. But Zepp, you need to try a bit. Culture on this site is to at least try on D1. This bullshit you're pulling doesnt help either wincon.

And do what D1, waffle about pointless shit?

How do you plan to play D2 differently? What makes your D2 play more confident than D1? Why are you so uncomfortable playing D1?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - where are you at on Bbm, Micc and Jones at the moment?

Also, other folks should probably start getting involved. I'm looking at the two other folks that got prodded.

Person that replaced in with me, what do you think about the game so far?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So what’s the purpose of the vote you made in post 30? You’ve already been in the thread plenty and laid down an RVS vote. What purpose does an additional RVS vote serve? From my point of view the reasons look a lot like you appearing to create content while not actually creating content, which is something you called out as something scum happily achieve by sheeping.

I don't see any reason why you can't have multiple RVS votes. I think you could safely say that I've moved the game out of RVS. What scum motivation do you see in that? Why would I call out a tactic that you claim that I am using myself thus drawing attention to it?


I still feel like you're being pockety karnage

I think people's interactions with you have moved the game out of RVS. But to answer your question, the scum motivation is cheap town points. And you pointing to this definitely lends that theory some credence.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'd almost feel like policy lynching that slot ngl.

under what policy?

seriously though I don't think that a certain person, not to be rude, but this is my opinion, is going to be very helpful.

Insert something useful here idfk

LCpl Jones may be psychic

Spoiler:

You sure that's who he was talking about? That original post came right after the BB post.

@Jones, can you confirm for me who you were talking about in your original comment about policy lynching the slot? And then who your follow up post about a slot not being helpful was?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - where are you at on Bbm, Micc and Jones at the moment?

I feel ok about them but its early so idk, you?

BBM is null. I agree with his Micc read, but that's it at the moment. Honestly when you asked me that I isoed him and realized that he hasn't posted as much as I even thought he had. So even the Micc read could be pockety.

Micc's approach feels like his approach in the last game I played with him where we were both town. He engaged in theory discussions asked alot of directed questions that appeared to sort. I doubt this is outside his scumrange, but hes a townlean for me at the moment.


My vote on Jones isnt random. Jones asks about experience, and in my experience playing newbie games on this site that question comes from scum more often than town (you asked arkias the same question but in a more directed and relevant way).

*[maybe a reason]*

I think the way he dealt with the interaction from Micc in response to his BBM vote didnt look good. He starts by saying that sheeping is bad (fine no argument) but then explains that he doesnt think BBM was sheeping and that scum wouldnt be so transparent. Micc then asks for more clarification on whether it was just anti-sheeping or a scumread, and splits it saying it's mostly the anti-sheeping stance but not fully. Then at 39 he commits to saying that BBM wasnt sheeping (so now I completely dont understand the vote). Then in 47 he tries to claim credit for moving the game out of RVS, which I dont think is accurate, and that comes off as scummy in this context. I then think he misrepresents Micc's 49 in how it discussed your vote at 29. Micc was talking about the fact that he didnt view your 29 as RVS because you were already asking game advancing questions. I think Jones misrepped that, and I think it was intentional, because he seemed to double down on it claiming that your questions didnt come until 34, when you were asking for explanations as early as pg 1.

This is the first game that I'm actually taking notes in. I hope it makes my life easier.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Jones, can you confirm for me who you were talking about in your original comment about policy lynching the slot? And then who your follow up post about a slot not being helpful was?

Both Gypo. I didn't want to be blatantly rude but I don't think he's reading this thread, anyway, so...

I'm suffering the effects of caffeine withdrawal right now so I'll be back tomorrow, sorry. I need to sleep.

After this answer, the part above where I said *[maybe a reason]* goes away.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Jones, can you confirm for me who you were talking about in your original comment about policy lynching the slot? And then who your follow up post about a slot not being helpful was?

Both Gypo. I didn't want to be blatantly rude but I don't think he's reading this thread, anyway, so...

I'm suffering the effects of caffeine withdrawal right now so I'll be back tomorrow, sorry. I need to sleep.

Cool, when you get back, could you answer 73 please?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think the way he dealt with the interaction from Micc in response to his BBM vote didnt look good. He starts by saying that sheeping is bad (fine no argument) but then explains that he doesnt think BBM was sheeping and that scum wouldnt be so transparent. Micc then asks for more clarification on whether it was just anti-sheeping or a scumread, and splits it saying it's mostly the anti-sheeping stance but not fully. Then at 39 he commits to saying that BBM wasnt sheeping (so now I completely dont understand the vote). Then in 47 he tries to claim credit for moving the game out of RVS, which I dont think is accurate, and that comes off as scummy in this context. I then think he misrepresents Micc's 49 in how it discussed your vote at 29. Micc was talking about the fact that he didnt view your 29 as RVS because you were already asking game advancing questions. I think Jones misrepped that, and I think it was intentional, because he seemed to double down on it claiming that your questions didnt come until 34, when you were asking for explanations as early as pg 1.

I just re-read through their exchange and I not seeing an issue. I see LJ answering the questions that were asked. In an ISO these may come across weirdly but I think in context with Micc's questions its all reasonable.

I'm more concerned that you don't seem to have an original thought in this. you've essentially copy-pasted from Micc's posts

I dont think your characterization is inaccurate, but it is 4 pages into the game, so if reads align, they are probably going to focus on the same events, no?

Also, I think we do have a slightly different take on at least one of the items. Micc seems more concerned with the way that Jones discussed the BBM vote for moving it out of RVS. I'm more concerned with the way that his reasoning seems to have shifted to a point where its incomprehensible. He originally claims that the vote was mostly due to his anti-sheeping stance. He has since shifted to saying that he didnt think BBM was sheeping, and that scum wouldnt be so transparent. Ok, so now why did he vote there? If he didnt think BBM was sheeping, then why do a policy vote?

I mean I grant it's a subtle difference, but I dont think it's fair to call that copy/pasted.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm sorry that I haven't been posting anything useful at all. All the games I've played on a different site have been very different to this one and I'm still trying to get used to everything. I'm gonna try to be more productive, I just am not sure how to start.

Try by posting thoughts. Theres a few things that happened so far so put your thoughts out there. If you have any reads, even weak, it will give people a way to start interacting with you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - could you explain how my opening vote on Jones was oppprtunistic? And what makes you think it was a retroactive attempt to justify the vote?

I don't think I scum read Karnage for the vote. If hes trying to get town leader status I dont think he drives the wagon on me to a green flip. If hes trying to under the radar he doesnt jump out and write the first case on someone. So I disagree with him here, but I dont see scum motivation for the play. I may re-assess on a Jones red flip, because then this starts to look like a chainsaw, but at the moment, I dont think this makes him scummy on his own.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Arkias, can you explain the paragraph that starts "Reading through what you wrote"
I think you may have misunderstood my 71, but I'm not sure. I meant that his tone this game was similar to his tone in the game where he got lynched D1 as a townie. I'm upset, because if hes town, then that's a useless slot. Mafia is a weird team game where you dont know who your teammates are as town. I saw him play this way as town before, which is why I think hes a wasted lynch. I think you thought i was saying that he changed his tone. Did I interpret that correctly?

Lastly, what specifically do you think I'm misinterpreting?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Jones - I like your 99 more. The logic is clear, I just disagree with the premise. Where do you think that Micc is positioning himself as a town leader? Is it just the part that you quoted, because that feels more like just an inference (not an unreasonable one to be fair) off of what he said rather than a direct quote of him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

^Can we lynch this please

He clearly doesn't want to play so I'd say let's just help him out

I'd rather hope he gets back into prod range then hopefully we can replace him almost immediately. I'd rather not lynch a slot that's literally 2/9 of being scum. I'd rather lynch someone that's playing scummy.

Honestly the players pushing a policy lynch this early into D1 are raising my suspicions. I want at least one legitimate lynch, preferably with a couple of wagons leading up to it, before we lynch the deliberately provocative slot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@BB - why do you think Jones' 100 is so scummy. Is it mostly the part you bolded? If so, can you explain, because I dont see what's so scummy about it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - I'm getting the sense that you have the wrong impression of my read on Jones. How strong do you think my read was at the time I placed the vote? Because you're describing my case as lacking so I'm wondering what you were expecting for a page 4 case.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Throwing this out there now - I'm not voting Zepp on D1. I'll reconsider if necessary D2, but im not voting there D1. So let's play mafia and stop letting scum hide out by arguing for a policy lynch.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm coming around on Jones. I think Karnage is probably town (the explanations add strength to that), even more likely town if Jones is. The thing holding me up on Jones is that I dont understand why he voted BBM. And I'm not asking for an explanation, because he gave one already. But after how he clarified some things later, the original explanation didnt make sense anymore.

@Karnage - you think being unable to explain your vote isnt AI? Particularly when you're the second person to place a vote?

At the moment, I dont want to lynch in Karnage, Micc, or Jones.
Not interested in BBM today, and I'm not policy lynching Zepp on D1.

That leaves Arkias, bep, and Salsae. Bep seems like they're trying at the moment. Salsae we gave you some thoughts on how to get started, but haven't heard from you in 24 hours. I'd like some pressure on that slot, but for me, Arkias is more interesting. I think his explanation of the vote on me was pretty vague, and when pressed, he didnt clarify.

VOTE: Arkias

Pedit : @Micc - yes I remember that. But I'd rather have D1 wagon information that we can use going into D2 before making a decision on policy lynching him. And when we lynched that slot D2 it wasn't a policy lynch anymore.

[Billy Pilgrim]

In regards to 131, I posted 97 at Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:38 am, and yours was at Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:46 pm. It wasn't 'I didn't press and didn't clarify' as much as "I haven't been on, and had no chance to respond." It hasn't even been an honest 24 hours, and I had work in the morning. Your push is incredibly odd, and just furthers my opinion.

Anyways, to respond to various points.

Regarding 110, my paragraph about your 71 was about the fact people rely on reading how others act in previous games a lot to make a 'lean' about someone being scum or not. I didn't say you wasted a vote or not, I was mostly commenting on the idea that people try to make trends out of past games rather than focus the current game --

and with that, I can answer both 110 and Mic's 130. I believe he's just a vt and not mafia because of the general 'tone' of the play. In Town of Salem or Throne of Lies, 'vanilla' roles that aren't aligned tend to act completely disinterested, since, in their minds, they have no power over the course of the game. Why do they need to pay attention? Someone else will/would, or an investigator will point a finger and cause a lead. This is inherently different than a mafia laying low, since of the flippant disregard. Whereas someone playing as a mafia member is just trying to stay under the radar, a VT generally doesn't _care_ about the radar. They're innocent, in their mind, and their play has no impact on the game as it goes. It's the sense of agency, and my reading of Gyro's post, while it's clear he doesn't want to pay attention/play, seems to be more akin to someone who just doesn't care/feels like they've no way to make an impact into the game.

That's why I read him as vanilla townie, and just not worth wasting a lynch on. I've seen games fall apart where people voted off the non-contributer person, but at the same time, any amount of information is good.

Also, now that I've read it fully --

130 From my post 97 you never asked for clarification. In fact, no one did, outside of why I think he (Gyro) is vanilla and not worth wasting a lynch on.

I do feel like you're scum now though, at least in the sense of pushing. Then again, you might just be town too and are trying to see how I react.

I honestly don't have a read of anyone proper, my incliniation is that you (Billy) are either trying hard on this, or just trying to get someone lynched that isn't an acceptable target. So my vote on you stands.

@Arkias - I'm confused by your post again. You name me at the bottom, but a large part of your post was about 130, which wasnt me. That was Micc. The question I asked you to clarify your 97 was what I was misrepresenting. You mentioned that I was misrepresenting things in service of a push, but you haven't clarified that yet.
I think if you try and use names more often in these longer posts it will help clarity.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Arkias - your complaint about me not giving you enough time to clarify was entirely fair. It wasnt even 24 hours. I was just alot more active yesterday so it felt longer.

[Billy Pilgrim]

'd say the argument for voting Zrpp today is not to waste a vote later. I don't think anyone wants to vote him over a scum read but even if he's town it will have a positive benefit in a lylo situation as


I very much get the feeling that the scum team is backing off on me.
FOS Billy and FOS Micc.

I'm not quite so happy with my vote on Micc right now.
UNVOTE:

Now there's options.

Can you explain this please? I'm the only one that had voted you. You were town reading me while I was voting you and scumleaning you. Then I interact with you more and get some questions answered in a logical way. I only have one outstanding confusion around you and it's from why you voted BBM. How does that progression get you to a FoS?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

I'm pretty good with Billy being town atm with Micc and BBMolla

Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well Jones, these sudden turns are undoing the work that your earlier posts had done for you. Not a fan of you FoSing people that have votes on them and complaining that you can't drive a wagon and instead parking your vote on someone that no one has interest in pushing.

In fact I think that's probably more AI than what made me lean you scum before. If you're suspecting me, why arent you voting me? There were 2 votes on me already at the time you moved your vote.

Also waiting on those questions to 144.

VOTE: Jones


Pedit: definitely more comfortable with this after Jones' last post. If my push on Jones was weak, why was he town reading me for it at the time I was making it. In fact, iirc he called my reasoning logical and clear. It feels like he was waiting for an opportunity to scumread me where he couldn't be accused of it just being OMGUS. So he waited until my read of him changed then laid down a FoS on me. If my push on Arkias is weak, (which admittedly, it probably is - not really enough active players and i think Micc and Karnage are probably town - and i was coming around on you) who is the clearly better candidate that I'm not pushing?

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jones

What's your read on me at the moment? How did you get there from your earlier post where you at least had me in a 4 person PoE? And how do you feel joining a wagon that I started?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Jones's AtE didnt feel natural. I've townread AtE's before, and I've done it in Newbie games from newbies. But this one felt different. I may be wrong, but right now I think my votes in the right place.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Folks we are more than halfway into D1, we haven't had a wagon more than 3 people on it at all, and the only 3 person wagon we had was on Jones and lasted for under 12 hours. This D1 sucks and I'm not getting any information from it. All the folks that arent voting, go somewhere, or one of you will probably end up eating a compromise lynch. At this point, I'm not voting Micc Karnage, or BBM today. Like to have the spots that arent voting say 1) what they think about the Jones wagon; 2) what they think about the Jones response to that wagon; and 3) who is a better vote if not Jones and why.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Folks we are more than halfway into D1, we haven't had a wagon more than 3 people on it at all, and the only 3 person wagon we had was on Jones and lasted for under 12 hours. This D1 sucks and I'm not getting any information from it. All the folks that arent voting, go somewhere, or one of you will probably end up eating a compromise lynch. At this point, I'm not voting Micc Karnage, or BBM today. Like to have the spots that arent voting say 1) what they think about the Jones wagon; 2) what they think about the Jones response to that wagon; and 3) who is a better vote if not Jones and why.

If you aren’t getting information, push harder on someone. As soon as LCpl exclaimed he was town, you seemed to back off. You want people to push yet you’re afraid to do it yourself. If you need information on day one, you need to press it out of people. If you want a vote you got it sir. You’re managing to look like town without actually doing anything. I don’t like the fact that you are looking for people to just follow your vote.
VOTE: Billy Pilgram

Where did I back off? When he said he was town, I said the appeal to emotion from him sounded fake. What post have I made after my initial post that was backing off of Jones. And in the post that you were responding to, didnt I ask everyone what their thoughts were on the Jones wagon and Jones' response?

@Heavy - what makes you think I'm looking to policy lynch Jones?

FWIW, I dont think either of these are good, but I think Bep's post is worse. I made that case at 155. Bep posts before I flip out about the game state, so if it was my push that was bad, he could have voted there.

I still like my Jones vote, and add to the initial reasons that he didnt respond well to the pressure.

I think both the votes on me are bad as well. That already means I'm finding scummy play from at least one town player, so it would be nice if we could get more activity so I can have a bit more data.

@Micc - I'm fine doing a policy lynch on D2. I dont want a policy lynch on D1. I'd like a real wagon that I can analyze alongside a policy lynch wagon when we get to a LYLO situation.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What a world we live in

Jones wagon goes to l-2 and his response is to quit but not really quit and y’all are calling it a bad push.

It’s been a bad push cause none of y’all piled on to make it an l-1 wagon when he decided to throw hands in the air and play victim.

I don’t remember you voting? Could you link posts where you voted or unvoted.

I like billy/molla/Karnage for town, gyro and Jones as scum and everyone else as newbies who I have a hard time distinguishing between

bad

Newbie scum hunting and actually being scum.

It was post 159.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Heavy - what makes you think I'm looking to policy lynch Jones?

Basically cause you were voting him prior.
It looks as if you were looking to draw negative attention to his emotional response by not showing much emotion yourself.

Ok are you drawing attention to my vote from back before Arkias here? And I cased him before the emotional post. So what makes you think my push here is policy based.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Zepp - my initial concern with Jones goes back to his initial vote on BBM at 30. When pressed, he makes 33 where he then basically admits that he didnt think BBM was sheeping or that scum would be so transparent about sheeping, so now it sounds like it was just a random vote with a joke about sheeping. Which whatever, fine, I wouldnt have scumread that, but instead he is basically asked that question and he makes 35, where he says the vote was only mostly because of sheeping, but not fully. 1 he still hasn't provided clarification on what else contributed to that vote, and then at 39, he admits that he doesnt see BBM's vote as a sheep. So now, I have no idea why he switched his vote. Mostly because of the sheep, which he now says wasnt a sheep, but not fully, but no extra detail. By 59 he has now fully committed to the idea that BBM wasnt sheeping. So now, I'm lost on the original vote switch.
Now, he answered some of my questions in a satisfactory way, so I unvoted him. He for some reason took that as an opportunity to shade me and Micc, who hadn't even voted him. I ask some questions at 144 that are related to my case at 155.

So @Gyro, those are my reasons for voting him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gyro - if you didnt know what people's reasons for voting him were, why'd you vote him and not someone else?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@BBM - you had voted Jones earlier then unvoted when he had an emotional display. Wagon's up to L-1, what do you make of it now?

[Billy Pilgrim]

This is a weird game state. Only 4 people have more posts than the mod. 1 of them is being wagons by 2 of the others while the other isnt voting. There's an L-1 wagon and then I'm the counter wagon.

@Karnage, you had the defense of Jones during the first wagon, what do you make of that slot at the moment?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think it's likely that we're gonna get a replacement there. I mean Jones basically broke the rule and requested replacement in the thread, so I dont think he has any intentions of coming back.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Where did I back off? When he said he was town, I said the appeal to emotion from him sounded fake. What post have I made after my initial post that was backing off of Jones. And in the post that you were responding to, didnt I ask everyone what their thoughts were on the Jones wagon and Jones' response?

FWIW, I dont think either of these are good, but I think Bep's post is worse. I made that case at 155. Bep posts before I flip out about the game state, so if it was my push that was bad, he could have voted there.

You never really pushed it hard. All you did was dump your vote and then after jones’s AtE, you complained about the wagon being weak. @Micc did a similar thing. He never posted his reasons to vote until much later after jones left. I dislike the fact that the people starting the wagon blame the people not on the wagon for the lack of strength. I feel that you should have been showing Jones the reasons he is suspicious rather than telling people to join the wagon. This could be a difference in philosophy, but evidence puts more pressure than just a L-1 wagon. Especially with Zeppin the in the game on not confortable with an L-1 yet. I feel that Billy is almost using the wagon as a way to hide. You’ve made 2 posts really accusing him (155, 173) until you were upset that the wagon wasn’t strong. At the risk of sounding like I defending LCpl, I personally wasn’t super suspicious of him and I actually trust his AtE. It’s not a wagon I’m was comfortable joining blindly.

What did you expect me to do to push it? I cased it, I asked other people both that voted him and some of those that weren't voting him why they either were or weren't voting. You're saying something about evidence, but aside from a guilty, which literally cant exist on D1, what do you expect me to be doing as far as evidence? I laid out how he seemed scummy from before my vote, then I laid out how he seemed scummy after my vote. Also, the shade you just threw at Karnage feels like you may be setting up for a push of Karnage down the line, mostly if Jones flips red. If Jones flips red, I want to revisit your slot before Karnage.

Also, how do I push something if not asking more people to join the wagon? And if your answer is by providing more evidence, how do I do that when the person stops posting?

Conf town - BP
Townread - Micc
Town lean - Karnage
Nulltown - BBM
Null - Arkias, Gyro, Heavy Anaconda(though this one is shading more toward nulltown)
Nullscum - Bepwei
Scumlean - Jones
Scumread -
Conf scum-

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Bepwei - if I'm scum, am I trying to blend in, or am I trying to deepwolf? Because it seems like you're suggesting both in your explanation to Karnage.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gilded - thanks for replacing in. You're in a tough spot, so I'd like to see your catchup asap.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I personally dont like Karnage’s reads of who's ‘scum’ and how im too scummy to be scum. I think he’s just trying to ride with a general consensus and seem fine with town. If someone is ‘scummy’ they are probably mafia in your eyes i dont believe too scummy is a thing

It definitely is. It's when people start to differentiate bad play (of which you are very guilty) from scummy play (of which you are less guilty). The point of this specific part of the server is to let people have some bad play and get some experience scum hunting so they can distinguish bad from scummy play. So too scummy to be scum is a thing, because usually scum is a bit self-aware of how they are perceived and they're not trying to eat a lynch. Your play has almost asked people to be suspicious of you, which as Karnage said is basically too scummy to be scum. To summarize, you are playing very scummy (not scum hunting, telling people to piss off when they ask you for reasoning, failing to really explain your reasons, sheeping other people's cases rather than building your own.) All that is pretty damn scummy. But its almost impossible for you to be scum here, because in my thinking, scum would have at least tried to play a bit less aggressively scummy. If this is a gambit and you're scum, then good luck. If you're town, then you're not helping your team, and you should cut that shit out.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Bepwei - if I'm scum, am I trying to blend in, or am I trying to deepwolf? Because it seems like you're suggesting both in your explanation to Karnage.

Not here to answer for Bepwei. But what do you actually mean by "deepwolf"?

By deepwolf, I mean trying to drive the game as scum. It's generally the opposite of trying to coast through the game and just not arouse suspicion. Its trying to build cases on people and get town credibility, even though you're mostly pushing mislynches.

For a good example of deepwolfing or power wolfing check out Farkran's play in my last newbie. I think it was 1953. But Farkran got heavily townread early and it continued through.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@GildedSun, we are less than two days from deadline atm. When should your catchup be done?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gilded - why is Micc your top scumread?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gilded - you 100% agreed with my 83, which was a big part of my earlier game play, you largely agreed with Micc during your comments on his early play. What changed from your first post to your reads list where hes your top scum and I'm null only over him and Arkias?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Want that question above answered before I weigh in on that slot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - kinda curious as to why you haven't declared intent yet. You felt like the Jones slot was scummy and then Gikded hasn't done anything to redeem it, you dont have your vote on anyone and it's like 36 hours until deadline. What are you thinking right now?

Heavy doesnt seem to understand Micc's point, but I dont know if hes misinterpreting it in bad faith.

[Billy Pilgrim]

He asked everyone to explain why its scum indicative to explain why pushing a scumread to claim is scum indicative. He said he thinks that Guilded is scum reading him because Micc thinks that Guilded sees Micc as a viable counter-wagon. Based on how many people have expressed scumreads of Micc, I dont disagree with him here.

Also, there is much more scummy play from the Guilded/Jones slot than just the AtE.

Your intense assertion here makes me maybe think it is in bad faith. I'm really not sure here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Alright Gilded. Now someone's claimed intent to hammer. Now is the time that you claim as per site meta.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gilded - why is Gyro so high up in your town reads? Your bottom three reads were three of the people voting you. Why is Gyro different? Also, still waiting on a response to 275

Also, did Molla's intent to hammer change your read of him at all?

Karnage's dealing with the Gilded/Jones slot feels strange. Now that said, I think I felt the same way in the last game that I played with him when he replaced in and he was town, so I dont know that its AI. But I'd suggest that slot as one to target if theres an investigative.

[Billy Pilgrim]

It's "scum indicative" simply because I disagreed with his scum read.
Just like your doing to me right now.

Right, but as you can hopefully tell, I'm not scumreading you because I disagree with your scumread. At the moment you are in my need to be sorted category. My question was specifically targeted to finding out whether your misinterpretation was in good faith or bad faith.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage - kinda curious as to why you haven't declared intent yet. You felt like the Jones slot was scummy and then Gikded hasn't done anything to redeem it, you dont have your vote on anyone and it's like 36 hours until deadline. What are you thinking right now?

Heavy doesnt seem to understand Micc's point, but I dont know if hes misinterpreting it in bad faith.

Wow, I’m not anybody? /s

Do you have rising suspicion of Karnage because of this? A few posts ago you were worried about me having suspicions of Karnage. If the Gilded slot flips red, will that change you opinion of Karnage?

Yes, I do have some suspicion about Karnage because of this, but I messed up at the time I made this post, which I later corrected, because I forgot Karnage was voting you at the time, and you were my second preference for a vote at the time, and that status hasn't really changed. If Gilded flips red, then it definitely increases my suspicion that Karnage chose to park his vote on a slot where there was no interest rather than a slot he thought was scummy despite the fact that it would have been a hammer. I may go check games to see if Karnage has hammered before.

I know your first comment was sarcastic, but I dont think I've been interacting with your slot unfairly. You've been scumreading me over my interactions with the Gilded slot. So clearly from my perspective we're seeing different things in that slot. Honestly, if I keep pressing you on that slot and you keep disagreeing with me, I'm probably just going to end up conf!biasing you toward scum. Although I will add that after Gilded's replace in this was your second post, and both were directed at me. One was you answering my earlier question to you, which I dont understand your answer, but this is a vocabulary issue, so I'm not reading that as AI. Your second was a joke directed at calling me out for not interacting with your slot, but then an interesting question re:Karnage. So I'm more interested in your lack of really commenting on the leading wagon at the moment which is Gilded.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Could we hear some from Arkias? They haven't spoken in a while and I haven't been able to make a decision on them.

What made you list them as null/scum in your reads list then?

[Billy Pilgrim]

At the risk of sounding like I defending LCpl, I personally wasn’t super suspicious of him and I actually trust his AtE. It’s not a wagon I’m was comfortable joining blindly.

@billy this was my initial thought while accusing you. I personally trusted the AtE from Jones and never really felt anything strong enough to vote. I currently am not ready to hammer Gilded and would prefer someone else to be voted out over her. (Hence my vote on you)

But alot happened after the AtE. What are you making of that? Also, are you just town reading because of the AtE?

If so, I can show you tons of games where I saw someone throw up their hands with an AtE and the flip red.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gilded - why is Gyro so high up in your town reads? Your bottom three reads were three of the people voting you. Why is Gyro different? Also, still waiting on a response to 275

Answering about Gyro:
Something similar is happening in another game I am playing (not going to elaborate because not to talk about ongoing games) but basically I view a player who refuses to help town as themself town. It would be too obvious for them to be mafia, whether them a troll or not. Usually mafia plays to conceal themselves, be viewed as helpful, and to blend in with town. Sure, they might sheep/be quiet, but I don't think they would deliberately make decisions such as Gyro to stand out.

About Micc:
Honestly I'm not confident at all with who is town. I just have a gut feeling that someone who is taking a leading role in this game is mafia and that is why it is being thrown so heavily on my slot. I do full heartedly agree with why he was initially viewed as suspicious with the whole "sheeping" talk on BBmolla but I feel like scum is pulling the strings.

My playstyle is more so game solving/asking questions than finding scum, I'm not experienced enough to have a good enough skill to do so. In fact sometimes I am labeled suspicious because of my true neutral playstyle... Sorry if I'm not of much help. One of my setbacks is my fear of being wrong but I'm trying to overcome this.

As to Gyro, check out Mini Normal 2098, it's in my played games. Focus on the Kraeg slot. Terrible D1 where he was sort of deliberately provocative. I ended up falling for it and hard defending him for it. He got lynched and flipped red on D2. They came after me on D3 because of it. Sometimes scum just play pretty scummy and anti-town. I like that you're looking for motivation, but that's probably too high for him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Here's my concern with Gilded.

Upon entering the game, the slot seemed more concerned with identifying what from their slot seemed scummy then they were with finding scum in other slots. That feels like an attempt to soft pocket their wagon. Here's the problem, I dont understand how you can agree with much of the reasoning against your slot, then nullread the guy that was pushing your slot the hardest. If my reasoning is solid, why am I a null read? And if Micc's reasoning was good, why is that your biggest scumread? That feels off. The VT claim also means that I dont really have an incentive to leave this slot. It kinda makes me think they're not scum, since I think there would have been a pr claim from scum, but I think leaving this alive increases the chances that scum could hit one of our prs. So unless i see something basically scream scum to me I'm staying here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

At the risk of sounding like I defending LCpl, I personally wasn’t super suspicious of him and I actually trust his AtE. It’s not a wagon I’m was comfortable joining blindly.

@billy this was my initial thought while accusing you. I personally trusted the AtE from Jones and never really felt anything strong enough to vote. I currently am not ready to hammer Gilded and would prefer someone else to be voted out over her. (Hence my vote on you)

But alot happened after the AtE. What are you making of that? Also, are you just town reading because of the AtE?

If so, I can show you tons of games where I saw someone throw up their hands with an AtE and the flip red.

LCpl was a nullscum until the AtE when I believed it. I’m not exactly sure what you mean when you refer to the stuff after the AtE. I town lean the Gilded slot currently. I never saw the stuff against LCpl that compelling and more of an attack against his play. That could be me not used to the site meta, but the AtE definitely made me feel better about the slot if that’s what you’re asking.

Why are you town leaning the Gilded slot currently? You didnt see the LCPL things that strongly, so how does it make you feel that the first thing Gilded did was explain why she agreed with people's reasons for scumreading Jones?

Then given that she admitted there wasnt much to her reads list, on what basis are you town reading her?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like I need to post in depth notes on all the players for after I am lynched. (As that's very likely at this point.) Maybe there's a chance it can help town, who knows. (Although my reads will probably be completely off since I'm not so skilled in that yet.) Would any of you be interested?

Please do this if you're town. If you're scum dont bother wasting your time.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy

You checked me and you're claiming a guilty now? With your soft yesterday how the hell would I leave you alive today?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why did BB insta vote bill

Theres at least 3 of us already waiting on an explanation, so you make 4. You get a guilty on me BB?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am confused why they would choose arkias as their NK. Any idea?

I dont have any. Do you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t have a guilty or an innocent or anything I just think Billy is scum

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bepwei

Feeling this instead more atm

Care to case me? Also, if I'm scum, why are you whining my second preference from yesterday?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm inclined to believe Billy here but I'd like BB to elaborate on his vote

How do you feel about the elaboration from BB?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy

You checked me and you're claiming a guilty now? With your soft yesterday how the hell would I leave you alive today?

I don't really understand what soft means. Could someone explain what this post means in simpler terms for a newbie? thanks!

326 at end of day he says I'll be checking out Billy tonight. That's what I meant by the soft pr claim. I mean theres only 2 ways this guy is alive right now given that there was a kill.

1) hes scum. I think this is unlikely, because I don't know why scum would fake claim there. I mean they mislynch town D1, and there wasnt a whole lot of information that came out of yesterday. I guess that the soft was vague, so it could be a cop, or a tracker, maybe even a weird way to soft JK (the way he said he didnt have an inno or a guilty may be the clarification here - either that or he could have been the JK target or roleblocked). So maybe this is vague enough that it can only be countered by that role or masons which can counter everything, in which case I guess they're trading 1 scum for a pr. The fact that they'd be willing to do that makes me think maybe we're in column c.

2) Scum missed it. Honestly that's the only reason I didnt talk about how much I hate being conf!town, because I would have drawn attention to it at the end of the day. Tends to make me more erratic less cautious in making reads and my reads arent great anyway. I'm only talked about it at the beginning of the day, because he softed it yesterday then naked voted me to start the day. So if he was using that as crumbling a result, I knew he was lying so it was an immediate scum claim.

Look, if I'm scum and that guy was town, hes not alive today. The only way that doesnt happen is if were in A1 and he can get roleblocked, then maybe theres a way to bring the soft back up to shade the fact that he didnt get a result and force a hard claim and maybe draw out the JK that way as well.

Arkias had voted me yesterday so in BBM voting me to start the day but with no explanation he could have been trying to get people to dead sheep Arkias' first vote.

I dont know, I feel like there may be scum in BBM. Not sure why Karnage didnt vote earlier though.

BBM - you gotta explain how you both think I'm scum but are comfortable going to my second preferred lynch when you left me.

VOTE: BBMolla

[Billy Pilgrim]

Can you guys sell me on bepwei?

I'm going to make a hard right turn here. What do you think about BB as scum?

Looking back at his ISO I don't like his early sheeping on the jones vote. Then he makes a weird 180 at the end of the day on the jones/guilded slot. naked votes on billy and bep to start the day. the only reasoning he can give is "the same reason as karnage"

UNVOTE:

You just laid out some thoughts, and honestly that seems stronger than the nk "tell." Btw, in real life mafia, I totally thought understanding the nk was important, and BEP asked to understand it rather than providing reasons. I've seen plenty of town players be the first to talk about a nk on this forum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

350, you leave your vote of me but in explaining you say I dont have a guilty or an innocent, I just think hes scum
That post was already after my response. The next post you said you thought my response was townish. Then in a later post you said the scumreads on you were garbage. So now you're shading me since at that point there were three people expressing concerns, but I'm the only one voting you at that point.

If you dont start expressing some thoughts I'm gonna have trouble town reading you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont know what I'd be threatening you with. What I had said is that I was gonna have trouble town reading you if you dont provide thoughts. Theres still a question from Bep above toward you that I think I'd like an answer to as well.

What I was outlining was the consistency. Yeah, I think I'm good with my vote.

In response to 380, yes, you unvoted me to vote Bepwei based on the nk tell, you didn't mention that my response was townish until a bit later.

I meant to have a question in there. What scumreads on you are garbage and why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So I did something I haven't done on this forum yet and checked the dead guy's reads. I did that, because this was a game with very few posts, but Arkias seemed to have about an average number of posts, and to me didnt seem to be driving things. I seemed to be his initial preference for a lynch, and while I think he got one other person to vote me, it stopped there. Then, while he doesnt ever abandon his scumread of me, from what I can tell he calls out BBM for sheeping. That is while he is in an extended 1v1 with Micc, where neither of them really scumread each other. About a day and a half after he votes BBM, he goes over to Jones and puts him at L-1. After that he clarifies that he townreads Micc.

The biggest part of his participation was him defending Gyro.

Now I can think of a few motivations for any kill.

1) kill off a town leader - seems inapplicable here.
2) kill a likely pr - I didnt see any crumbs so again unlikely (and BBM would have been the obvious call here)
3) kill someone because they got the scum team
4) kill someone because they townread the scum team to lock in the townread
5) kill someone that's being scumread in order to frame it under scenario 3.

If its 4, then Gyro is scum.

If its 3 then scum is in me and BB.

If its 5, then I need to think a bit about it. If its 5 then I need to think about who pushed me and BBM at the beginning of the day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok so Im assuming one of Micc Bb is scum then trying to push me because its an easy lynch

I don’t want you in LYLO it’s that simple

@Gyro, yeah, you need to do a little bit more. I'm also uncomfortable with you in LYLO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, I cant trust you in LYLO.

VOTE: Gyro

[Billy Pilgrim]

That's L-1

[Billy Pilgrim]

It feels like scum is gonna win here just down to apathy. Can some more folks try here so that we can get some content and try and make reads. D1 was garbage and D2 somehow feels worse.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Who is everyone's top scumreads and top townreads?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Honestly, Karnage I'm feeling a little uneasy about you.

You seemed to position yourself weirdly wrt to Jones/Gilded yesterday. You were in a spot where he wasnt your preferred lynch (Bepwei was), but you made it clear that you thought the slot was scummy and ultimately hammered.

Now, in a game where people are getting scumread for pushing people that was maybe a risk, but maybe not. Although, I dont think you would have killed Arkias. I think that you probably would have killed Molla or one of the more active players. So your day play has me scumleaning you, but the nk makes me think it's not you.

And honestly, I'm lost in this game because I don't feel like we've got a good townblock.

Look if you think I'm town, come interact with me so we can get somewhere. If you think I'm scum interact with me and tell me why. Let me sort some people.

[Billy Pilgrim]

You have been trying to move the game forward and providing logical explanations for pushes. Yes, I'd be comfortable with you in the town block. I see that Gyro is your desire for a push, what do you think of Karnage at the moment?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Honestly, Karnage I'm feeling a little uneasy about you.

You seemed to position yourself weirdly wrt to Jones/Gilded yesterday. You were in a spot where he wasnt your preferred lynch (Bepwei was), but you made it clear that you thought the slot was scummy and ultimately hammered.

Now, in a game where people are getting scumread for pushing people that was maybe a risk, but maybe not. Although, I dont think you would have killed Arkias. I think that you probably would have killed Molla or one of the more active players. So your day play has me scumleaning you, but the nk makes me think it's not you.

And honestly, I'm lost in this game because I don't feel like we've got a good townblock.

Look if you think I'm town, come interact with me so we can get somewhere. If you think I'm scum interact with me and tell me why. Let me sort some people.

I have a scenario in my head where molla/micc are town and I feel like we will win easy but if I'm wrong I could be would be pushing mislynches and making it easy for them as a scum team. I flip flop in my head about whether I'm right because I see things from them that I think is scummy. As a result I think my play has been kind of erratic.

regarding jones/guilded, I was townreading the slot but when they unvoted/fos'd Micc I questioned my read. I didn't like anything from guildedsun once they replaced in so I felt good about lynching the slot. I was wrong.

my bepwie read is the inverse of molla/micc. If I accept molla/micc as town, bepwie is scum (with either anaconda or gyro)

So i'm finding myself in this quantum mechanical state of players existing as town/scum reads simultaneously

This is interesting, because it's pretty close to my thoughts except I'm more on BBM/you than Micc. But I dont see scum motivation for BBM's soft. Do you? Because if you dont, then the suspicion is preventing a pretty easy PoE solve right now. Although how do you know its BEP? Why cant it be Anaconda and Gyro?

[Billy Pilgrim]

You have been trying to move the game forward and providing logical explanations for pushes. Yes, I'd be comfortable with you in the town block. I see that Gyro is your desire for a push, what do you think of Karnage at the moment?

My biggest problem with karnage is that I don't feel like hes done much for scumhunting and the pushes he has made have felt like they come in bad faith. it doesn't feel like he wants to have a conversation about his scum reads as shown by his unwillingness to further expand on molla scum, and to dismiss my follow up question in post 410. I think a townie who wants to lynch their scum read is a little more eager to entertain those who are willing to hear the case. Go back to day 1 and he spent a lot of time with his vote on bepwei without pushing that case either and eventually got over to Jones for the hammer. None of these pushes feel genuine to me.

Do you think scum!Karnage makes the Arkias kill?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

With which lynch? You're not at L-1 you're at L-2. Who are you saying you want a claim from?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

Yeah, what was with the soft then the vote to start the day. I know you explained why you voted for me. I'm more interested in the reason for three soft.

With which lynch? You're not at L-1 you're at L-2. Who are you saying you want a claim from?

Oop missed your change of vote my b

Billy any questions for me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

So what lynch were you good with at this moment?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

Eh this is probably town points. I know who's voting me when I'm scum.

With which lynch? You're not at L-1 you're at L-2. Who are you saying you want a claim from?

Oop missed your change of vote my b

Billy any questions for me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Karnage’s lack of worry wrt Gyro is strange to me personally

He had him in a PoE pool. Why do you think that shows a lack of worry?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@bepwei, anaconda, and Gyro, theres alot of content on the past two pages, any thoughts?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'll be back in like an hour. Let's see if we can get a solve today. I'd live to go into N2 knowing the plan. At the moment I'm feeling like Gyro first then probably bepwei then heavy, but I'm less decided on the last two.

I'm also curious whether a mass claim makes sense when we still have a day before LYLO to check some of the claims.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

One more question, what was the purpose of the soft yesterday? Particularly when you came out at the beginning of the day voting me. I know why you said you voted me, I'm more interested in the soft at the moment.


With which lynch? You're not at L-1 you're at L-2. Who are you saying you want a claim from?

Oop missed your change of vote my b

Billy any questions for me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel pretty good with this lynch after this whole last page tbqh

I’m at at L-1 don’t any of you fuckers hammer without a claim

One more question, what was the purpose of the soft yesterday? Particularly when you came out at the beginning of the day voting me. I know why you said you voted me, I'm more interested in the soft at the moment.


With which lynch? You're not at L-1 you're at L-2. Who are you saying you want a claim from?

Oop missed your change of vote my b

Billy any questions for me?

Damnit I keep messing up these quotes. Theres a question buried in there, and honestly it may be best if only you are looking for it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well we're one mislynch away from LYLO. That's usually a good time for massclaim. What are people's thoughts on that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey Radiant. Never played with you, but I hear good things. Gotta admit, this isnt what I had expected.

[Billy Pilgrim]

btw here's a really cool thought on the nightkill

usually weird nightkills aren't made because of their scumreads, they're made because of their townreads

So he townread Micc and Gyro. Why isnt Gyro your leading candidate then?

[Billy Pilgrim]

What did you mean with that post I quoted above. When you said a weird kill is because of the town reads, what did you mean?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Bep - theres two scum in this game. Who are they?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont have any rock solid scumreads. I thought I had a PoE solve in gyro>heavy>bep, but rc is confusing me. Micc was a solid townread, RC is not that.

I'm down for mass claim if others are. I'll go first but I'm popcorning to Molla because of how that slot has been acting around pr claims. I want time to sort that in case theres a weird situation there. I dont want to have to figure that shit out in LYLO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What are everyone's thoughts on massclaim. We're at like 2 days left. We need to get moving if we're gonna do it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Come on man, why did you sign up to play the game if you're not gonna try? Look, I think theres a better than average chance that Gyro is scum now. If both scum are lurking it explains why there isnt any scummy play that's presenting itself. Also, he did hop yesterday's wagon fairly easily.

I want that lynch and it's not just policy. Is a good bit policy? Yes, but come on that slot is infuriating. He literally responded to his fourth prod with the word "post."

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok if hes staying, hes my priority for today. Karnage put him to L-1. I swear if anyone hammers before we get a claim, it's an instant scumclaim.

Bep - why are you so convinced this slot is town?
Molla - you unvoted midway through the day, why?
Heavy - where you at on this?

Gyro - you got any thoughts on which is more likely scum and why? Also, Micc isnt playing anymore. That slot is now RC.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Whoops, I confused Molla and RC, the replacement screwed me up. Ignore my question Molla.

RC - why is Karnage a better lynch than this slot?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Down to let the new person catchup, but dont want to unvote. If someone quick hammers then it's a scumclaim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What if I said I had a guilty on bbmolla

Wait, do you have a guilty on Molla? And if so why was your slot voting Gyro in light of a guilty on Molla? Literally wtf is going on right now?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, I'm caught up. We're under 24 hours today. I like Jamelia's catchup. While I think that in Gyro's play, there was more scummy to it than townie, I think you're being dishonest if the primary motivation wasnt policy. Now I've been burned on this before, but it was D1 rather than D2, but I dont think that replacement scum comes in when they're under pressure and goes after basically a consensus town read. If I'm wrong here and Jamelia is scum, then I'm going to flip my opinion on that completely in the future, but I think it shows a lack of survivalism, and I think scum would want to get to LYLO tomorrow even if they were basically guaranteed to be lynched after by targeting and pushing an easy counterwagon.

I also think that if Jamelia is town, then RC has to be town with the way he interacted with that slot on replacement. And that goes with my Micc read from earlier. So, earlier I had a PoE that was basically either BBM/Karnage or 2/3 bepwei/Jamelia(Gyro)/heavy.

I leaned to the bepwei part of that because I didnt seek Arkias being killed by Karnage. That's probably a stupid reason. That also possibly led Karnage to think he could pocket me when he interacted with me. The fact that he articulated thought almost identical to my own either means that hes town or that hes pocketing me. Although at the end of day 1 I was thinking that Gilded was looking townier. If we had more time I would have wanted to do something else, but the deadline was closing in there. So RC's post made it clear that I missed Karnage saying that he thought Gilded was caught scum. I think that's a crazy overstatement.

I think Karnage may be pocketing me which explains the way he interacted with my slot today. I wish that the other two newer players would have taken that opportunity earlier, but that may come from being new.

Alright, let's see if this works. If so, we dodge LYLO tomorrow and have some time to look for the partner.

VOTE: Karnage

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Karnage, when did you think Molla and Micc were masons?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Skitt, can we get another 24 hours on deadline with the inactive slot?

[Billy Pilgrim]

And if so, I want mass claim. I think Karnage may be town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

And if so, I want mass claim. I think Karnage may be town.

Massclaiming is horrible for town. Please do not do this.

No it's not. It's horrible if you wait until LYLO to sort out the mass claim. If we mislynch today which I think is a legitimate risk, tomorrow is LYLO. So I'd rather massclaim today than tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If it's either Karnage or Jemelia, I'll do Karnage. I dont think I unvoted earlier, but in case I did. . .

VOTE: Karnage

[Billy Pilgrim]

Molla if you have a role you should claim it now. With RC's claim, if you've got a role, hes scum. If anyone has a role, RC is scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Obviously that meant a role other than mason. I dont think it makes sense for the mason partner to claim now, but any other role should so we can quick hammer RC.

[Billy Pilgrim]

don't you guys DARE lynch anybody but me or jamelia

RC is trying to find the "other" PR right now. don't do anything to help him

If this is true, why wouldnt you want to lynch RC?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Screw this, Karnage is probably town, BB said the magic words and explained the soft in a way that makes sense.

I hard claim mason with RC. Micc and I were playing a bit more naturally, its legitimately crazy that I was mason partners with Micc two games in a row, but it's what happened.

I wanna lynch Heavy then bepwei.

VOTE: Heavy Anacondra

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was mostly following RC on you. I mostly didnt want the Gyro slot alive in LYLO, but now that slot got replaced which is what I wanted at the beginning. I think with you and Jemelia town I'm at a PoE solve.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Alright bepwei was a scumread of mine D1. I'll got there first.

VOTE: Bepwei

[Billy Pilgrim]

Honestly for me at this point everything is PoE. I actually like the way that Jem and Karnage responded to pressure, so I'm good with them as town reads. I think that if we lynch Bepwei>Heavy>BBM then we win.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If Jem doesnt hammer here I'm wrong about him and hes scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Good point.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bepwei is not one of my scum leads. Why should I hammer?

Who are your scumreads?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I like voting Bepwei. I'm gonna go to bed soon. I need to know if that's not gonna get lynched and I need to be somewhere else. God always around the deadlines.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, I'm around. I'm basically gonna sheep this so go ahead.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I want to lynch heavy anaconda today. Someone tell me why I'm wrong.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok this is MyLo right? That means we need to not vote until we are sure or else someone could quick hammer? This is my first game on site and first lylo, so any suggestions would be appreciated

This isnt MYLO - that stands for mislynch and lose. In a MYLO situation a no lynch is a safe play. This is LYLO which requires that you lynch, otherwise we'd be endgamed by scum as town would not have a majority, but if you lynch outside of scum you lose. So here, no lynch means town loses, and mislynch means town loses. So yes, if you vote town and scum can coordinate a quick hammer than we lose. It's why I announced where I wanted to lynch but didnt vote there.

So what do you think about a Heavy lynch?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@bepwei and Jemelia
Who do you feel comfortable voting for and who will you absolutely not vote?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I wanna wait until I hear from the others. I'm trying to take my role seriously.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Who is town Billy?

I'm more interested in who you think is town and scum at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’m also throwing this out there - I’m not interested in voting for Anacondra.

I believe Mafia keeps Anacondra in order to have them be an easy vote this round. I may be overthinking but I am afraid this might be happening here

Howd you get from 961 to here?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why doesn’t my soft make sense

If I provide my town games where I soft as vt almost every time will you still think it doesn’t make sense

It should have been NKed. It doesn’t make sense for arkias to be chosen over a soft imo. No idc what you did in other games. It’s the fact that you weren’t NKed for it.

I think bep is scum here. Now BEP is acting like Molla was the obvious N1 kill, when bep asked what a soft was on D2 when Karnage and I talked about Molla's soft.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I personally believe it's a scum team of

Anacondra/Molla --> Bep.

I don't really believe in a Bep vote atm. I understand the logic against them but I just have a gut feeling especially after their posts when they were on L-1

Is this saying you think I’m scum or not scum? I’m specifically confused about the notation in bold.

Later you said you didn’t want to lynch heavy (sorry on mobile hard to quote multiple posts) either. Does that mean you want a molla lynch? I’m very confused on your stance. Who is your top choice for lynch today?

I’m saying that if we lynched Molla or Ana, and one of them got NK’d, you’d be my next choice.

Since we know Billy is town, that only leaves you 3.

In what world am I not the nk tonight?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why doesn’t my soft make sense

If I provide my town games where I soft as vt almost every time will you still think it doesn’t make sense

It should have been NKed. It doesn’t make sense for arkias to be chosen over a soft imo. No idc what you did in other games. It’s the fact that you weren’t NKed for it.

I think bep is scum here. Now BEP is acting like Molla was the obvious N1 kill, when bep asked what a soft was on D2 when Karnage and I talked about Molla's soft.

Didn’t you say molla was the obv NK? Also just because I didn’t know the terminology doesn’t mean I recognized that as someone threatening to investigate thus hinting at a role..

Yes, I did, but you now saying that makes me feel like you were deliberately attempting to pocket me and now you're upset it didnt work.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think its bepwei and heavy. Jem if you're scum well played. Imma be pissed if its Molla, because he sat out the EoD shenanigans yesterday, but I have a slight preference for lynching Bep over Molla. Honestly that makes the Arkias kill makes sense. I sorta believe that Molla was softing there to draw the nk. It's what I thought at the moment, and that's either a real high IQ scum play in not killing him because they knew he was trying to draw the kill, or it's a newbie miss of the obvious crumb. The only other possibility was that hes scum, but I dont think a scum team with him on it kills Arkias.

So I will be upset if hes scum here and I lose to him, but I think its bepwei and heavy. My preference is to vote heavy first, because he hasn't done anything remotely townie all day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont see any Molla team making the Arkias kill.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'll vote when everyone is ready for EoD. I assume I'm dead tomorrow, so let me know when y'all are ready to vote. My preference is Heavy first.

[Billy Pilgrim]

WELCOME TO NEWBIE 1964

mod: skitter30

Playerlist:

thegildedsun

LCpl Jones

billy pilgrim

Probs

heavy anaconda

Salsae

bepwei

jovanilic868

Gyro Zeppeli
Arkias
radiantcowbells

Micc (SE)

BBmolla (SE)
Karnage (SE)

* indicates a prod

Spoiler: living players

billy pilgrim
heavy anaconda
bepwei
Gyro Zeppeli
BBmolla (SE)

Spoiler: dead players and reveals

thegildedsun was lynched day1, and was a

vanilla townie

arkias died night1, and was a

vanilla townie

karnage was lynched day2, and was a

vanilla townie

Radiantcowbells died night2, and was a

town mason

Word. If I'm wrong about the scum team then town deserves to lose, because they all decided not to play.

VOTE: Heavy

[Billy Pilgrim]

From what Molla just said, he cant be scum w/o heavy. That doesnt mean hes scum with heavy, I'm just saying he'd be celebrating. Jem if you're scum and heavy is town and you get back before Skitter, then you can let us know that you and your partner won.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sure, I could be scum. No reason for scum to kill me tonight. They should definitely kill someone else tonight.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well played Jemelia. Honestly when you said you wanted BEP before Heavy I started to get nervous, particularly when heavy flipped red. Good to know Micc and I had the solve. You came in and hard saved that slot.

I'm kinda pissed that RC took me off that. If we did the three lynches in the order i wanted we'd have won.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm sorry :c

Dont be, I let myself get talked about it. I should have stood my ground. The fact that this was the first time I pegged the scum team has really meant my confidence is quite low, so when I get pushback from someone more experienced, I think I'm deferring too much.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Good to know Micc and I had the solve.

yeah...we had it this time, just couldn't convert. Really enjoyed having another chance to play mason with you. The game was a bit of a drag, but you helped keep my head in it by continuing to ask for opinions in the mason thread. Too bad that right when we had built some momentum it lead to me looking at Karnage meta and stumbling on stuff I shouldn't have seen. I'm taking a break from playing, but would happily mason with you a third time in the future.

I've had a good time both times, and I literally laughed when I found out I was mason with you in back to back games in the queue.

[Billy Pilgrim]

enjoyed playing with you all I hope I was tolerable

You were fine. Got a bit emotional at times, but this game does that to people. I just wish you'd put more thoughts out in the thread. If it wasnt for Micc I probably wouldnt have been able to townread you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Skitt - aside from the pt issue the game was well modded. Thanks.