Newbie 1964 [Game Over]

[Arkias]

VOTE: Micc because his name is green and his avatar looks like a honeybadger, and honeybadgers dont give any fucks. This is bad for a society, and do you know who else is bad for society? Mafia.

[Arkias]

Hey! I didn't realize a prod meant I had to post every day. I'll fix that ASAP. Sorry on that.

[Arkias]

@Salsae, bepwei, and Arkias - what did you guys think of Billy's 83 and 89?


I think he makes a fair point about it being only 4 pages in so there's only so many things for people to focus on and to call it copy-paste isn't accurate but I still don't think he makes a strong enough case for scum!LCpl Jones. I believe its an attempt to retroactively justify his initial vote.

My only real experience of Forum Mafia was the KoL forums. On their, Day one was mostly just random voting and noone took it seriously. Then again, I haven't actually played a proper vanilla game in a long time. A lot of my mafia play comes from Town of Salem and Throne of Lies.

@Karnage - where are you at on Bbm, Micc and Jones at the moment?

I feel ok about them but its early so idk, you?

BBM is null. I agree with his Micc read, but that's it at the moment. Honestly when you asked me that I isoed him and realized that he hasn't posted as much as I even thought he had. So even the Micc read could be pockety.

Micc's approach feels like his approach in the last game I played with him where we were both town. He engaged in theory discussions asked alot of directed questions that appeared to sort. I doubt this is outside his scumrange, but hes a townlean for me at the moment.


My vote on Jones isnt random. Jones asks about experience, and in my experience playing newbie games on this site that question comes from scum more often than town (you asked arkias the same question but in a more directed and relevant way).

*[maybe a reason]*

I think the way he dealt with the interaction from Micc in response to his BBM vote didnt look good. He starts by saying that sheeping is bad (fine no argument) but then explains that he doesnt think BBM was sheeping and that scum wouldnt be so transparent. Micc then asks for more clarification on whether it was just anti-sheeping or a scumread, and splits it saying it's mostly the anti-sheeping stance but not fully. Then at 39 he commits to saying that BBM wasnt sheeping (so now I completely dont understand the vote). Then in 47 he tries to claim credit for moving the game out of RVS, which I dont think is accurate, and that comes off as scummy in this context. I then think he misrepresents Micc's 49 in how it discussed your vote at 29. Micc was talking about the fact that he didnt view your 29 as RVS because you were already asking game advancing questions. I think Jones misrepped that, and I think it was intentional, because he seemed to double down on it claiming that your questions didnt come until 34, when you were asking for explanations as early as pg 1.

This is the first game that I'm actually taking notes in. I hope it makes my life easier.

I have no experience from or with anyone here, so I can't really answer that in any proper sense.

I do agree that sheeping is bad since in Forum Mafia and ToS/ToL, sheeping was generally done by people who weren't paying attention and would miss fairly obvious clues (Fake Death Notes, inconsistent voting patterns, and the like. However, it's day one, so I'm half inclined to believe he (BBM) was just funposting.

Reading through what you wrote, I think that's just not right. I feel like you're reading way too much into something that's not exactly there, and even in both 73 and 59 the same answers present. He didn't really believe it was sheeping and just going off that, and even back then, it felt more like a joke. I do understand the following questions were meant to be 'game moving forward' questions, but that's fair.

In regards to 71, this almost reminds me about when in the KoL forums I played a game of 'Masquerade Mafia'. Everyone in the game was given a moniker for the thread, and that game went... interestingly. Turns out, most people could only lean who was scum/mafia or townie by comparing how a player played in a previous game, rather then what they did in the current. While I have no interest in defending players who aren't doing anything, I also just believe it's a case of tonal shift. Playing as someone with no night powers generally means that you either have to read the forums thoroughly and see if people are acting on priviledged information by being able to steer the game in some way. For most players, that just means they're not going to be doing anything then, since they don't really have anything to do.

Though, 94 is nice! I'm unused to a game more focused on day play, but I don't generally know if I have things to add. Sometimes, I feel like I'd just read the new posts and say "Yep. Conversation happened, but nothing worth me commenting on."

Now, with that out of the way, 67 and 71 what is this bullcrap. I get that Night 1 is boring but you can at least try to care. I think the sheep claim and the push on Jones is interesting, even if I just think its a huge misunderstanding.

So, with that, I'm going to VOTE: Billy Pilgrim. I feel like you're misinterperting and misreading posts to push something on someone.

PS.

Am I supposed to quote things I want to talk about or just link the post number?

Thanks!

[Arkias]

Since I can't edit a post, excuse this triple post.

The only reason I'm not voting Gyro is because I'm convinced he's a vanilla townie just by the fact he doesn't care.

[Arkias]

In regards to 131, I posted 97 at Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:38 am, and yours was at Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:46 pm. It wasn't 'I didn't press and didn't clarify' as much as "I haven't been on, and had no chance to respond." It hasn't even been an honest 24 hours, and I had work in the morning. Your push is incredibly odd, and just furthers my opinion.

Anyways, to respond to various points.

Regarding 110, my paragraph about your 71 was about the fact people rely on reading how others act in previous games a lot to make a 'lean' about someone being scum or not. I didn't say you wasted a vote or not, I was mostly commenting on the idea that people try to make trends out of past games rather than focus the current game --

and with that, I can answer both 110 and Mic's 130. I believe he's just a vt and not mafia because of the general 'tone' of the play. In Town of Salem or Throne of Lies, 'vanilla' roles that aren't aligned tend to act completely disinterested, since, in their minds, they have no power over the course of the game. Why do they need to pay attention? Someone else will/would, or an investigator will point a finger and cause a lead. This is inherently different than a mafia laying low, since of the flippant disregard. Whereas someone playing as a mafia member is just trying to stay under the radar, a VT generally doesn't _care_ about the radar. They're innocent, in their mind, and their play has no impact on the game as it goes. It's the sense of agency, and my reading of Gyro's post, while it's clear he doesn't want to pay attention/play, seems to be more akin to someone who just doesn't care/feels like they've no way to make an impact into the game.

That's why I read him as vanilla townie, and just not worth wasting a lynch on. I've seen games fall apart where people voted off the non-contributer person, but at the same time, any amount of information is good.

Also, now that I've read it fully --

130 From my post 97 you never asked for clarification. In fact, no one did, outside of why I think he (Gyro) is vanilla and not worth wasting a lynch on.

I do feel like you're scum now though, at least in the sense of pushing. Then again, you might just be town too and are trying to see how I react.

I honestly don't have a read of anyone proper, my incliniation is that you (Billy) are either trying hard on this, or just trying to get someone lynched that isn't an acceptable target. So my vote on you stands.

[Arkias]

133 To answer your question, I always figure it's best to ask another question: If someone on your team is playing badly, does removing them make your team more likely to win? Town's advantage is the number game for awhile, as possible people who have which roles are wittled down. I think he's not playing good for a vanilla townie. And I actually answered that already on the 'why more likely as town than scum'. As a vanilla townie, you don't generally feel like you've agency. No matter what you do, it's not going to make an impact. Which is why it's inherently different than someone who's mafia. They're aware of the information and their goal is to be hidden, not disregarding. While you're right that scum are capable of deciding they dont care about the game, it's _far more likely_ that it's a townie play. Nothing in this game is about absolutes, as much as it's about what's likely.

Regarding 134 I disagree. Openly speculating on someone being vanilla or not does not give any more information to the mafia than they'd already have.

The game state at the start begins with each townie knowing only one thing -- out of 9 people, only they are innocent. Mafia know that 2/9 people are mafia. Speculating if someone is vanilla in public doesn't change the way the mafia works in that regard, they already know the most important part of the person you're thinking about -- they're not mafia.

Saying X is vanilla only leads to 4 outcomes.

You're right, and the mafia don't kill him -- You've a townie still.
You're right, and the mafia kill him -- A vanilla is dead. Still bad, but not the worst.
You're wrong, and the mafia kill him -- Not likely since if we're working on the assumption that mafia want to ginore the vanilla to hit 'power roles' this one would, by your own reasoning, show up the least (since a players input says their vanilla and by inference, the mafia has accepted that).
You're wrong, and the mafia don't kill him -- You might have confused a power with a vanilla, but the mafia are buying it.

Out of the 4 options (though really, 3 -- since the 'wrong and mafia kill him goes against the premise') 2 of them are in town favour. So you either have something that's useful 50% of the time, or realistically, 66% of the time.

Of course, this flips when you speculate about someone being a power role. I agree with you on the openly speculating power roles.

If anything, making more ideas on about who is and isn't town narrows the pool. Regardless of who dies tonight, from both lynch and kill, the game state will change. If the mafia ignore Gyro since they're aiming for a power role, they've still a 2/6 instead of a 2/7 chance of hitting right. But our possible pool of people we know that aren't mafia increase by 1, from the 1/9 at night 1, to (assuming lynch and kill) 4/9 on day 2. And a 1/5 shot is a lot cleaner than 1/6.

[Arkias]

For Micc at 139

If I can't get it through to you the first three times, I won't get it to you the fourth time. You're correct that about how half are vanilla and whatever, but to counter your point -- and make 142 clear; my read isn't FROM forum games. YOu both are completely right in the context of forum games. When I did my read, I explicitly made it clear that I was taking it from Town of Salem and Throne of Lies --- and look at this post!

Post 148. He expicilitly states it's from Throne of Lies and Town of Salem -- which is what I was getting at. It's not that 'vanilla or scum can do X', it's that I'm reading him as someone from ToS/ToL that got a really boring role that just makes him want to afk -- compared to the assassin/vanilla mafia who are generally more invested since their plays are based on their own acts or going against the crowd.

That being said, the second part of your statement is true. But I brought this up and 149 saw it. I firmly believe he's a townie, but the question is about a policy lynch. I don't like policy lynches on principle, since I'm not sure if that's the best use of a vote. We get more information from a different lead, but how do we know that they won't play erratically in the future? It's a weak pick nonetheless, since when you go back in time and look at these votes, voting on a policy lynch doesn't reveal much.

--

To be explicit at 142 I think you're reading him like a forum mafia player and not a mafia from a different source who's coming here to play. But, I've tried to make it clear on that, that was my only interpertation.


--

Why are we voting Jones?

Man, that sheep vote doesn't sit right with me at all.

VOTE: BBmolla

[Arkias]

Nothing really happened tonight to comment on. Keeping my vote on BB. so is LCpl replaced?

[Arkias]

Ive made it pretty clear I don't want a policy lynch on Day 1 either.

But the hands being thrown up in the air and such is a good point.

VOTE: LClpJones

L-1

[Arkias]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

[Arkias]

I think you're town.

I just think you assume everyone's played forum mafia and are playing in a forum mafia best interest/optimal play, rather than people coming from live games (Town of Salem/Throne of Lies) and doing typical plays from it.

that's close, but not quite it. I assume that everyone is here to learn about forum mafia, and I try to lead them in a good direction by challenging their opinions and forcing them to consider whether the concept that they are trying to apply is applicable to this format or not. For players who are open minded I hope it helps them learn, and for me the insight into how other players think about theory concepts is a good baseline to use later when it comes time to make reads based on game content.

I appreciate it. But like, our entire arguement between pages 4 to 7 came because I was reading Gyro as a bored townie since he was playing like one from ToS and ToL. He later confirmed that's what was going on with him, and anything else would just be a question on Policy Lynching. I do understand the view in forum mafia though, but I just don't believe that was Gyro's intention. I feel like in other games that I play forward, I just wont have that mindset with weird posting styles.

[Arkias]

Waiting on the replacements information.

[Arkias]

Honestly, I feel like I'm read as scum since I was arguing with Micc for the same thing GildenSun sees about Gyro.

[Arkias]

I think this game sold me on the idea of policy lynching.