Mini Normal 2107 (Game Over)

[Vorkuta]

Hi again to Elements, Saladman, and sausage
Nice to meet the rest of you.

Let's quickly fast forward through RVS yeah?
VOTE: vork

[Vorkuta]

Its ok, let papa mason work his magic.
He should already know I'm trolling by now but ok

[Vorkuta]

Papa mason is unreadable- I'm going to be against most wagons on him so let's move on to

less

more interesting people kthnx

[Vorkuta]

You're not another one of these people that wont scum hunt on day 1 are you ?

Look at the fruits of my efforts
Don't push too hard, let others join in first

[Vorkuta]

rvs was basically over

Let's quickly fast forward through RVS yeah?

I agree- RVS is over by the third post of the game

[Vorkuta]

I’m refusing to work with vork.

Look at the fruits of my efforts

And now we have an insight into what kind of player you are.
That's a win in my books

[Vorkuta]

We don’t have any scum yet

Yeah we do he's here

I will hammer whoever reaches L-1 without announcing it.

I do not like Day 1, because I've got literally nothing to work with.

VOTE: wake88

[Vorkuta]

1-

poor decision making ability

And now we have an insight into what kind of player you are.
That's a win in my books

2-

I can’t trust your opinions.

We already have one scum why u say this

[Vorkuta]

@profi
It's all valid, but he won't budge, so why bother. Call him our VI and move down the roster.
@wimpy
Have you seen his 'i quickhammer @l1 k' shit and do you think it comes from town?

[Vorkuta]

And insulting me isn’t appreciated. Please don’t do it again.

you have poor decision making ability

Sorry- I thought we opened the floor to colorful language so I responded in kind.
Yes- I can't say that, but the point was "let's move on down the roster".

Not interested in breaking game rules.

Explain how a self-vote in RVS is playing against my wincon.
Close to EoD when we have proper wagons and shit? Ofc.

In post #6? When it generated such useful discussion and a potential read on a player?
Do better

[Vorkuta]

What I said was fact. What you said is an insult.

False.
What you said was "wrong" hence not a fact: I have thought out my self-vote and my decision-making processes are functioning quite well thank you very much.
What I said was a fact: you are stubborn in your preconceived notions of how mafia should be played and this is the behavior of a VI.

You haven’t provided useful discussion though.

*looks at this exchange*
mmk

[Vorkuta]

Vork's 100% nonbiased and accurate readlist volume #1

{papa-mason, profi}
{wimpy}
{plank, elly}
{wake}

People who need to post more and I'm going to bug in a bit
{salad, Zote, Looker, almidia}

[Vorkuta]

Vork's 100% nonbiased and accurate readlist volume #1

{papa-mason, profi}
{wimpy}
{plank, elly}
{wake}

People who need to post more and I'm going to bug in a bit
{salad, Zote, Looker, almidia}

[Vorkuta]

Oops *blames website*
For posterity- wake's scumread is NOT because of his shitty opening (maybe 10%)

BUT because of the following hypocrisy/doublestandard of invoking the gamerule.
>when vork self votes, then it's against wincon
>but when wake lol!quickhammers ASAP, then it's ok and totally according to his wincon.

[Vorkuta]

actually there is a game rule that supports what I said IS a fact.

zzzz

Don’t work against your win condition.

Does not apply here.


Wait
You guys aren't actually under the delusion that I intend to keep my vote parked on myself the entire

game

day right?
It's a stupid question, but it needs to be asked in this case.

why do people think quick hammers are bad? Like why is wake getting

shit

for that statement?

-hyposcum!wake hammering hyposcum!partner = ACTUAL rule violation, and not a pretend one
-any!wake hammering someone before they have a chance to claim = shit
-any!wake hammering someone before they share their final reads/make their final read/shows their final hand = shit
-any!wake hammering someone to end the day prematurely just for the sake of it = shit

He deserves said shit for that statement.

[Vorkuta]

We can agree to disagree about the win con stuff.

I accept your concession

[Vorkuta]

so does that mean I lied?!

shit im sorry but we need to policy lynch all liars now GG we can end the day now

[Vorkuta]

so does that mean I lied?!

shit im sorry but we need to policy lynch all liars now GG we can end the day now

[Vorkuta]

What was your question?

why do people think quick hammers are bad? Like why is wake getting shit for that statement?

Apparently this is a bad answer. I can do better but...

Spoiler:

-hyposcum!wake hammering hyposcum!partner = ACTUAL rule violation, and not a pretend one
-any!wake hammering someone before they have a chance to claim = shit
-any!wake hammering someone before they share their final reads/make their final read/shows their final hand = shit
-any!wake hammering someone to end the day prematurely just for the sake of it = shit

[Vorkuta]

You have issues with wake saying he will do something but have no idea if he actually will?

So @wimpy- what's the difference between my self!vote (which is a joke proclamation look: UNVOTE: I'm following my wincon!)
and wake's "im going to lol quickhammer" proclamation

VOTE: Vork oops im anti wincon again

[Vorkuta]

And I've already justified how I think my self-vote moves game progression which is a net-win for my wincon.
But let's keep on ignoring that

[Vorkuta]

Fair

People who need to post more and I'm going to bug in a bit
{salad, Zote, Looker, almidia}

@you guys- your 2 cents please and thank you

[Vorkuta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKsRc8GONrI

"Venetian Snares - Can't Vote for Yourself V1"

[Vorkuta]

What the fuck is papa-mason?

I am mason tho

Hardclaiming big dik mason this game

Questions like these really make you lose credibility in my eyes

PEDIT: No

If you don't quote all 57 of your edicts by the end of the game, I will policy you

[Vorkuta]

Ayt that's enough
VOTE: Wake

ISO him- literally only 2 things in there
1- "I will quickhammer"
2- "muh rule 10 and wincon"

Even though he could've (and has had ample time to) recover from his D1 faux pas, he doubled down by invoking his favorite rule #10 of all time.
His contributions have been of the highest quality.

[Vorkuta]

Questions like these really make you lose credibility in my eyes

blindly believing a mason claim and self voting makes you lose credibility but that hasn't stopped you

oh boy
oh boy oh boy
You really don't get stuff do you

Anyway- this isn't the first time papa mason has mason claimed in his opening posts.
His claim is not why I townread him

kind of hypocritical don't you think? You haven't provided any useful content.

1-

/s

is so heavily implied it's not even funny
2- are you sure that insults are off the table between us?
3- all the past pages of discussion is sure as hell useful and my self vote catalyzed it
4- are you going to continue to be like this all game?

[Vorkuta]

Idk about you guys, but over the year I've never improved my game or added new tricks to my arsenal as either alignment.
I also play in a very textbook and black-and-white way.

But that's just me

[Vorkuta]

the statement is null regardless who says it.

I’ve proven my argument that it’s null because town say it also.

You've cherrypicked and found yourself a statistically irrelevant sample size
Which we can also do, except we know our basic statistics and can't be bothered.

The burden of proof is on

Which we've already demonstrated and you've only *handwaved* away

Those who say wake is scum now how to prove their argument and I don’t think they can

oh boy
oh boy oh boy

Wimpy wont take you seriously unless you have cold hard proof.
In a mafia game.
Welp, let's fast forward to night time, hopefully someone gets a cop guilty.

[Vorkuta]

*sighs*
Imma let someone who actually knows the rules comment on the sig-bets

[Vorkuta]

wake only says that as scum

Oh we've also moved the goalposts while we were at it.
My bad

[Vorkuta]

Beetlejuice scum tell is beetlejuiced

[Vorkuta]

I need a sanity check. Am I the insane one here? Anyway-

but it's ok for saudade and profli to cherry pick?

To establish the ground rules- by cherry pick I mean the statistical anomaly you pulled out in post #166 to somehow justify your point.
THEY have not pulled out any obscure/niche/hidden sample points to support their (widely accepted, commonplace, statistically significant... etc.) hypotheses/arguments.
Feel free to redirect me where they have, or consider changing your wording.

do you not read context?

It's been evidenced that you don't, so let's stop projecting shall we?

i didn't move the goal posts

If you introduce bullshit to back up your point, it's only fair that we get to fling the same bullshit back at you.
Your crappy cherrypick argument is only VALID IF: you can provide the same cherrypick FOR *elements's quote here*

He says I should be the one checking it but why? I am not the one making the argument that wake is scum.

Elly has said that there exists a game where scum!wake does it. I don't even give a shit if he doesn't link it because wake would object loudly if elements is lying.
Wake is not Havo (to the best of my knowledge).
THUS your argument is valid, if you can find (cherrypick) a game where WAKE HIMSELF pulls this as town.
THEN and only then, can you conclude that "wake doing it is NULL"

i didn't move the goal posts

You're trying to get us to prove a negative.
My bad. That's worse than moving the goal posts.

I don't know why people want to argue about it.

because
-We dislike the premises of your logic
-We dislike the validity of your logic
-Wake should be able to defend himself- why are you interjecting/white-knighting on his behalf?
-It's a solid case, and you're derailing it which is anti-town (inb4 self-voting is antitown hurrdurr)

[Vorkuta]

So where did I go wrong?

you have yet to demonstrate that town!wake would do the same thing.
which is basically EXACTLY what Elements said in #173
Have we gone full circle yet?

Why are you just taking their word for it?

I don't even give a shit if

he doesn't

they don't

link it because wake would object loudly if

elements is

lying.

Because I think that people won't get dirty and "below-the-belt" by pulling shit up that can be EASILY disproven and will ruin their credibility COMPLETELY if done so.
That's on par with editing quotes.

Spoiler:

I won't be arguing anymore. It really fucks with my anxiety and makes the game not fun and I play to have fun.

sorry and hope you feel ok. genuine apologies for if I'm pushing you overboard

I have him as a scum lean. He seems like he wants to start arguments with me.

No shit. You started the game by blindly policy'ing me, so ofc I want to know if you're stubborn town or scum. I'm well aware of how anti-town it is to continue engaging, but I'm already self-voting so let's see how long you last without conceding.

He is also very hypocritical in his arguments. accusing me of stuff but not others who have done the same thing.

I fail to see the double standard. If you've invoked something ridiculous, it's only fair that I use it against you to see whether it holds or not. Profi and saudade haven't done anything ridiculous that I can throw back in their face

Accusing me of cherry picking when his cherry picking argument is actually him cherry picking

this is too big brain for me. Where did I dig up a random statistically insignificant data point again?

[Vorkuta]

if wake did this as scum, i want to see. I tried to find something and stopped when I got to 2015 games.

I think you're missing the entire point.
We're criticizing your havo evidence and refusing to let it stand.
It's not up to us to provide such things- you're the one that's "obsessed" with people doing things in prior games.

Heaven help me if I want to play this game alone by its own merits. That's probably why you made an alt account in the first place.

why can't I just make the statement that Wake does this as town? You did just say elements doesn't have to provide a link so why would I have to?

Ok fine I'll play: Does a game where town!wake pulls this exist? Yes or No?

I can't blindly believe anyone in this game.

I think that's our issue: I don't blindly believe elly.
I think elly is a rational

agent

player and knows the consequences of lying. He has made an informed choice.
If he is lying, it will be found out eventually and he will be in a horrible position as a result.
That's not the same as "blindly believing", but it's subtly what you're trying to say I'm doing.

You have insulted me and cursed at me and neither of these things are acceptable.

The cursing- I concede. As you can see in this post, I'm trying to keep my sailor mouth under control.
The insulting- you have opened up the floor to that by questioning my decision-making back in #64
If there's something that tremendously vexxes you and isn't based on fact, then point it out and I will take it back and apologize.

but you for some reason have a close mind

-not insulting at all
-says the person advocating for policy lynches

That would mean I agree with what he did and i don't

False. This is factually false (english...)
You are trying to convince people that wake is NULL and not scum.
This is completely and 100% independent to your personal beliefs (or endorsement) on quickhammering.

And stop saying "we". This isn't about we, this is about you.

1- royal british first person plural we (pardon my grammar)
2- profi, papa mason, and elements probably don't mind me speaking on their behalf for a tiny bit as we mindmeld on this

I am afraid to burst your bubble here but "Wake said he will hammer without a claim" and "he isn't producing useful content" is far from solid.

You've dug yourself in a hole and thus contradicted yourself.
Pick 1 of the following
A: Wade was serious about quickhammering and has thus produced useful content. Which means all of our quickhammering arguments hold.
B: Wade wasn't being serious about quickhammering, and thus hasn't produced "useful" content. Which is a perfectly valid reason to scum read him considering how many opportunities he's had to contribute so far.
Have you ISO'd him recently? He's done nothing but invoke his rule over and over, and... uh.... whatever that recent thing was.

The reality is nobody has provided a solid case for their scum reads

Here's mine- stripped down to barebones, WITHOUT invoking any meta from any previous games whatsoever.
I still think it stands and was uncontested.

For posterity- wake's scumread is NOT because of his shitty opening (maybe 10%)

BUT because of the following hypocrisy/doublestandard of invoking the gamerule.
>when vork self votes, then it's against wincon
>but when wake lol!quickhammers ASAP, then it's ok and totally according to his wincon.

pedit

I don't have to do that though. All I need to do is pull from my own experiences (like saudade and profli have done saying wake is scum) to know that town do this also.

Ok good.
THIS IS NOW YOUR ARGUMENT.
You have conceded that you cannot provide FACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE to back up your point.
You have lowered your standards to "pulling from your own experiences".
Now I'm happy.

Now I can disagree with you based on the fact that saudade's, profli's, and to a certain extent my own experience(s) (or gut feelings idk) outweigh yours.
That was my entire point of contention- you tried augment your point HARD EVIDENCE (which was invalid as previously mentioned).
Now that you've dropped it I'm

slightly less unhappy

happy

[Vorkuta]

Also you are spending so much energy arguing with wimpy but it doesnt bring us an inch closer to our goal, so, again, vorkuta!!! Focus child

But he just made a huge wall and it has so many holes.... must.... resist....

[Vorkuta]

I don't understand what's so difficult about this

The fact that you've had every opportunity to contribute meaningfully, but are FIXATED on
-rules
-quickhammering.

Like when does your raw analytical power wake up?

[Vorkuta]

I've seen town!salad be really inconsistent that way as well.

[Vorkuta]

people doing bad things because they always do bad things

just sayin
this describes salad quite well.

You're free to push him- I won't get in your way, but that was just a heads up and a subtle way of letting you know that I prolly won't support your wagon.

[Vorkuta]

Can someone TL;DR key points the wagon on looker?
I've caught up but I still don't get it

[Vorkuta]

so you can declare yourself as a quick-hammer'er but when you are on the wagon we have to wait until you are satisfied?

I am not going to quick hammer but this double standard is outrageous

+1

wake wagon please

[Vorkuta]

How many days has it been since we were promised a claim?

[Vorkuta]

initially he has a bunch of fluff posts, gets into a scrap with wimpy, then lurks after Wimpy replaces out.
He asks about main poins on Looker wagon, then doesn't respond.
0 interactions with Looker
0 proper interactions with me other than saying I need to post more and you'll follow up but never doing so.

I don't much much on that slot unfortunately.

Yes- because I've ISO'd you and all that but the case on looker seems iffy and nowhere as decent as the wake case is.
Also he posts sporadic walls so idk what I event want to ask him.

I mean back pre-wimpy replace you didn't have too many posts so *shrugs*

[Vorkuta]

hammerintent

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta what do you think about looker flipping scum and wake turning more town by the pages?

was wake doing literally anything to make the latter part true?
*looks at his ISO*
k

Large Normals do not have third party roles you fools!

*looks at game title*
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group, with no third parties

In large games (at least 14 players), a second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group, and there should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.

*scratches head*

Anyway

Traitor?
2 core group scum + 1 traitor?

50 billion negative utility rolls/modifiers for town?

Setup spec is always fun, let's do more setupspec

[Vorkuta]

Vortuka hasn't made a big impact on day 2 -

Yeah that's how you know I'm town and have the responsibility of being correct with my reads and pushes

[Vorkuta]

Hammering a mason claim is dumb when we're so far ahead.

[Vorkuta]

I agree with lynching a certain someone over obstinancy