Newbie 1973 | Mountain | Over

[Ph0enix]

Go back to ToS

I'm not quite sure I understand.

Might as well...

VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

[Ph0enix]

Hey, Ph0neix. You may want to get an avatar as it helps players recognize you better.

Noted.

[Ph0enix]

Nope.

[Ph0enix]

Phoenix uses the Tos forums too

Again, you are mistaken. But I guess the username is kinda common.

Small Pp is prob maf then imo, i see a 3rd vote as needless pressure

Same, honestly. I voted you just because you voted me, no other reason. However, seeing that you're L-2 right now is bothering me. I know RVS is a thing that exists, but still, it's a bit much considering we have no leads. And apparently none of the other two are willing to withdraw their votes despite all of this, which, to be fair, is questionable, so...

UNVOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

[Ph0enix]

However, seeing that you're L-2 right now is bothering me. I know RVS is a thing that exists, but still, it's a bit much considering we have no leads.

Same question. If we have no leads, how would you prefer we go about trying to get them?

I mean there's only so much information you can get on Day 1, let alone from one particular person on Day 1. If you haven't withdrawn your vote yet, I will assume you think there's something more we can learn from Gyro. I'm not sure that's the case but you may have a valid reason to think so and I would be glad to hear it.

[Ph0enix]

Also is it just me being ignorant/inattentive or have these guys been pretty quiet or inactive:
ArthurConyl
Nomanssky101
chazary
EspeciallyTheLies (SE)

Arthur's posted a few times. The other ones are quiet, yes.

Granted there is limited information that you can obtain during Day 1, but Day 1 is also one of the most important days for analysis once you get to later game phases - and especially after a red flip. There is also VCA ("Vote Count Analysis") that can be done in later phases, where you look at who voted where and when and what was happening around those votes. This tends to provide good information, and you can make educated guesses about what scum would tend to do.

For example: If Gyro flipped scum today, we could go back and look at who put him to L-1 during an RVS wagon and think, "Would scum really put their partner being at L-1 and risk a hammer that early in the game?" Of course, we didn't get there, so...

VCA is one reason I really like wagons. Votes mean more than words, and a harder to manipulate.

Fair point, but until you convince me there's more to learn about Gyro at the moment, I prefer to hear one of the quieter guys, as noted in Gyro's post.

VOTE: chazary

[Ph0enix]

Any reason for actually voting Cheeky?

Same question.

[Ph0enix]

Same question to Gyro, for that matter.

Being quiet or afk can usually be an indicative for scum.
Plus i wanna see how they react, innit?

Same, I want to get them involved in the conversation, nothing more.

[Ph0enix]

Have you decided Gyro is town?

No.

[Ph0enix]

Have you decided Gyro is town?

No.

Then there is clearly more for you to get out of him.

That is true but apparently some more votes aren't going to cut it for now, so I decided to use mine on someone else, where it could prove to be more useful (again, for now).

[Ph0enix]

Small Pp is prob maf then imo, i see a 3rd vote as needless pressure

Gyro why didn't you vote PP here?

+1

If Gyro's motives for voting Nomanssky were to apply pressure and/or perform a reaction test, I'd expect a different reaction to realizing that Nomanssky hadn't checked in. Voting elsewhere; unvoting; challenging my premises if he thought my logic was flawed. Not just acknowledging, leaving the vote in place, and saying nothing else.
VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

I absolutely agree. Will let him explain himself before voting, though.

I think Cheeky is Town. I like the poking and prodding attitude so far.

Agree with town for now. She can exhibit that behavior as both alignments and had me snowed in our last game together before she repped out.

To both: could you further explain why you believe Cheeky is town?

VOTE: especiallytheliea
Providing no backup claims to his vote.

Neither did we earlier, what's your point?

I mean - we're at the point where the votes are starting to mean something and aren't completely random.

How's that, given the fact that about half of the current votes

are

completely random (including mine)? I mean, I voted chazary but it's not like it'll make a difference or something. That being said:
UNVOTE: chazary

[Ph0enix]

Why are you asking questions to/waiting for an explanation from an empty slot that won't be able to provide a response?

Who are you referring to?

[Ph0enix]

That one's on me, honestly. My bad.

[Ph0enix]

So, given Gyro - and his future replacement - can't explain do you still want to vote there given you agree with what Farren said?

No.

[Ph0enix]

She's making an effort to actually sort people through questioning (e.g. not empty questions). It's an early, tentative read, but it's a start.

Again, I fail to see how that makes you think she's Town necessarily. She doesn't have to be Town to do so.

[Ph0enix]

Why not? Did you not find his actions suspect?

Also, I forgot to ask earlier, but what are your thoughts on Cheeky?

I do, but he's no longer in the game, so I can't judge his replacement off of that.

She's keeping the conversation going, I respect that. Nothing's certain about alignment, though, imo.

How do we go about trying to sort alignment? For now, having as many people as possible share their first thoughts is a good start.

[Ph0enix]

A replacement doesn't change his alignment, so if you found his actions scummy - to a point you were willing to vote pending answer - I don't understand what has changed in the interim.

I mean, given the fact that there's a scenario where he's Town even though his actions were scummy, it would be a better idea to wait for his replacement.

[Ph0enix]

So it would be town indicative to try and get as many thoughts from players as possible, right?

Absolutely, but I'm not willing to make assumptions based off of that alone.

[Ph0enix]

Actually I'm pretty happy that Chazary is town based on his stream of thought posting style.

Could you elaborate?

Phoenix how's the scum chat going?

Great, actually, thanks for asking.

No, I'm waiting for him to post before explaining.

That's not how that works, considering I have nothing to explain.

As for Farren's question in a previous post about whether I have any townreads:

PP and Cheeky are fine, both are being responsive and give fair explanations of their actions (although I'm waiting for Cheeky to explain the townread on chazary). Same goes for Farren, although I'm not quite convinced about him, for some reason. If I had to choose I'd say he's Town as well, though. Cheeky's a little bit too pushy for my taste, but that's a difference in playstyle, I guess.

As far as the others go, it's up in the air.

Anyway, to Farren: same question you asked me: any townreads?

As for Arthur:

Chazary hasn't done anything to scummy so far.

Can you talk about the difference between your Ph0enix "?" read and your chazary townread - in light of what I've quoted above?

Same question.

[Ph0enix]

Also, welcome Mitillos!

[Ph0enix]

Throughout the game, Ph0enix has been voting without reason and unvoting when it seems controversial. Two examples of this are when he voted back Gyro, then unvoted him because Gyro's voters were under pressure of being scum. Then he voted Chazary, got grilled again, then unvoted.
The first time, with Gyro, if he really did just want to vote him back, why would he withdraw his vote when the wagoners were pressured? I believe he didn't want to be seen as the guy who started the lynch wagon.
Second time with Chazary, he voted him, saying he wanted to hear from "one of the quieter guys". Thats not really a good reason for voting him, but thats ok. Then when Cheeky questions him: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11438328
A bit later he withdraws his vote. Following that he is under pressure again.

I really don't like that response.

First, I voted Gyro, again, just because he voted me first, no other reason. I'm pretty sure I don't have to explain that one considering it was literally the third post in the game. However, I unintentionally started what was a bandwagon against Gyro consisting of purely random votes put on top of mine. Gyro's voters were under pressure of being scum, yes, but who's more suspicious here - the one who opened with the first vote, or the ones who (seemingly) randomly followed. I didn't want that wagon to actually get somewhere, I mean, the guy was at L-2, there could have been more follow-ups, which, if one is at L-2, is a really bad position to be in. So I backed down and unvoted him.

Then, later, I voted Chazary because by that point votes actually had done a pretty solid job of making people talk. So I voted him in order to get him involved in the conversation. However, my vote on Chazary was followed by a completely random vote on Arthur, followed by a completely random vote on PP (both by Chazary, but still). This made me think whether my vote could actually help me learn something this time. Unlike the situation in the first posts with the first couple of votes, this was no longer the case, a simple vote wasn't going to cut it. So I decided to unvote Chazary in order to avoid starting some kind of wagon as with Gyro. Also, I'm really curious as do when do you think Cheeky "questioned me" prior to me unvoting Chazary.

FoS Arthur

Now, to Farren:

You did state some of your townreads previously, but the last quote in your post was post #100, I feel like there's a bit more information now in comparison to then. So, about a hundred posts later (it's even more now), the fact that the only thing you told me is that you had already said what you have to say? To me, it looks like you are dodging the question. And considering you voted Arthur earlier simply because he didn't answer your question, I suppose I should vote you now until I get a satisfactory answer. However, unlike Arthur thinks, I don't throw votes left and right.

FoS Farren

How's that, given the fact that about half of the current votes are completely random (including mine)? I mean, I voted chazary but it's not like it'll make a difference or something. That being said:
UNVOTE: chazary

If that was your reasoning for unvoting chazary, why didn't you vote for someone that would make a difference?
If that wasn't your reasoning for unvoting chazary, what was?

1. Again, I figured we're past that stage now and a simple RVS vote wasn't going to do anything.
2. Avoiding starting a bandwagon again

(I know I stated both above, just wanted it to be clear.)

It looks like Mitillos and Darren want to lynch Chazary. It looks like a coupla other guys (including me) want to lynch ETL. While I think both of them are suspect, we should agree on one person, the most suspect person, to lynch. I think some good points have been made about Chazary. I want to hear more from him. VOTE: Chazary

Ah, the irony. The person who's accusing me of making random votes is making what is quite a random vote, seemingly. At least you can say what are you referring to when you say that good points are made about chazary, you can't just throw that out there.

FoS Chazary


As for the other posts I had to catch up with:

I really liked some of the points ESL and Mitillos made:

"It's far too easy to ask questions and be active as scum and I don't believe that's alignment indicative at all." - ETL; post #186

I've already said previously that I absolutely think the same. Asking questions/being active =/= Town.

Mitillos made some great points about Chazary considering his votes earlier. This, paired up with that:

Honestly I think naked voting is a much scummier thing to do. If its meant to gauge reaction then I don't see at all how it's helpful. By simply naked voting there is nothing for the voted party to comment on and are left to just ask "why'd you do that". Granted I'm sure some naked voting in this thread alone has probably lead to some decent reads on people. Can't go back and look rn but I will when I have the chance. Mainly for my own learning purposes.

Well, what do you know. The other guy that thinks naked voting is scummy is the one that opened with not one, but two seemingly random votes.

Also, I don't really get how ESL's first post makes her suspicious whatsoever. To me, opening up by apparently being sure that one of the players is definitely town and one is definitely scum is just a way of making a controversial post so as to see what the others' replies will be.

@chazary: Could you explain why you voted ESL? You could already have and I may have missed it (excuse me if so), but it seems to appear out of nowhere as of the information I currently have.

As for the Cheeky vs. ESL debate, I honestly need more information or simply to re-read it a couple of times, guess that may help as well. Same goes for ESL's accusations of PP.

And to end this wall of text, Cheeky asked me for a readslist. As of now, considering my statement right above:

Possible Town: Mitillos, Cheeky, PP
Unknown: ESL, Nomanssky101
Possible scum: Farren, Arthur, Chazary

[Ph0enix]

It looks like Mitillos and Darren want to lynch Chazary. It looks like a coupla other guys (including me) want to lynch ETL. While I think both of them are suspect, we should agree on one person, the most suspect person, to lynch. I think some good points have been made about Chazary. I want to hear more from him. VOTE: Chazary

Ah, the irony. The person who's accusing me of making random votes is making what is quite a random vote, seemingly. At least you can say what are you referring to when you say that good points are made about chazary, you can't just throw that out there.

FoS Chazary

I think its pretty obvious what points their referring to given that their vote is following two others who have both been questioning my past activity and voting habits. Plus in this same post you scumread me. Why target Arthur for "randomly" voting for me if you also question my alignment.

I do agree that putting me at L-2 seems off but I can't totally argue against that because if there was someone I found suss and wanted to hear from I could see myself doing the same.

Well then, if it's that obvious, it would be no problem for him to explain himself. I'll wait, no problem.

What has my assumption of your alignment to do with Arthur's seemingly random vote? It's random nonetheless.

Also, the FoS on you must be way down in the post, not here. I must've screwed it up.

[Ph0enix]

Honestly I think naked voting is a much scummier thing to do. If its meant to gauge reaction then I don't see at all how it's helpful. By simply naked voting there is nothing for the voted party to comment on and are left to just ask "why'd you do that". Granted I'm sure some naked voting in this thread alone has probably lead to some decent reads on people. Can't go back and look rn but I will when I have the chance. Mainly for my own learning purposes.

Well, what do you know. The other guy that thinks naked voting is scummy is the one that opened with not one, but two seemingly random votes.

Also, I don't really get how ESL's first post makes her suspicious whatsoever. To me, opening up by apparently being sure that one of the players is definitely town and one is definitely scum is just a way of making a controversial post so as to see what the others' replies will be.

Admittedly, nothing. I was just answering what Cheeky was asking about reading naked votes. And I'm not sure who you're referring to about opening with two random votes and thinking naked voting is scummy. I can only imagine its me but your wording doesn't make that seem likely. Who are you talking about?

And if it is me your talking about then my votes were still, although late, part of RVS. Cheeky and Farren's were made far out of RVS which is what made me question them.

Indeed, I am referring to you. As for your quote above, given the way you said it it seemed like you meant naked voting is questionable even in RVS, which would be weird considering you opened that way. I guess there could've been a misunderstanding. Although I still agree with Mitillos' point about your earlier votes, so the FoS stands.

[Ph0enix]

But there wasn't much to question in your first post to begin with so what else was she supposed to do. Thats why I asked if you two knew each other and assumed it was a joke RVS vote but I guess not quite. You give all this evidence and reasoning and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your Cheeky scumread but also you said this a bit later that you had only read the first two pages and that was two days after you voted her.
I don't remember anything super AI in those first two pages. I know that the end of RVS was uncertain at the time so it could've been random but why not say that?

...

I second this question. I get the logic behind sussing out her SvS/SvT logic but I'm unsure how that early in the game something like that would make you certain she's scummy.

Also, just throwing a random thought out there, but is it overthinking to wonder if Cheeky and ETL's rivalry so far in the game is just a much more elaborate SvS strat like what Cheeky suggested Phoenix and Gyro were possibly pulling at the start?

Well, anyway, VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

Basically I was willing to brush off the suspicious immediacy of their reads in their very first post had they come back to explain with far less certainty. But because we got the great wall of text that we did rather than some questioning of Cheeky, I find them suss. I think they may have dug themselves into a hole by making their first post, scumreading Cheeky, then going afk for a while to come back to people against them. It was too late to pull the "it was RVS" card so now they're frantically pointing to anything they can to defend their initial claim rather than consider other options. I find that much more suspicious than anything anyone else has done so far. So they get my vote for now.

Why wouldn't she be able to "pull the RVS card" exactly? She posted it at the beginning of the game as a vote that is part of RVS, then came back later and catched up to find that, after reading everything, Cheeky in fact IS suspicious even though her first vote against Cheeky was not well-founded. Seems reasonable to me. Again, still haven't read details about her scumread of Cheeky, but as far as I know right now, voting ETL just because of this only is a bit much, imo.

[Ph0enix]

Dodging the question how? You asked if I had any townreads. I gave you the townreads I had. This is a bad accusation.
If you don't find my answer to be satisfactory, that's what follow-up questions are for. You didn't ask any here. Why?
There's more information since post 100, yes, but none of that information led to new townreads at the time. Specifically:
Your question was at post 180.

Players active between posts 100 and 180:

PenguinPower (townread)
Gyro (didn't townread, got banned)
chazary (didn't townread)
Ph0enix (townread, but noted that I was continuing to work on the read)
CheekyTeeky (townread)
ArthurConyl (didn't townread)
ETL (didn't townread)

The more interesting stuff as far as my townreads go occurred after post 180:

Mitillos's entrance (183 / 197) - modified read on the Gyro / Mitillos slot from scummy to Town.
ETL's response in 186 - some iffy stuff, but some good stuff too. Tentative Town, pending the re-read of Cheeky.
Cheeky's response in 229 - notably increased likelihood of one scum between Cheeky / ETL.

Fair enough, valid explanation, I suppose I should have asked you about reads in general and not only townreads. But you did update your townreads, despite it being after I'd already asked the question, so I appreciate that.

Possible Town: Mitillos, Cheeky, PP
Unknown: ESL, Nomanssky101
Possible scum: Farren, Arthur, Chazary

Would you mind elaborating on your penguin read?

Given the explanation Farren gave above, I'm moving him to possible Town, based on all the other information about him, now that that's sorted out. As for Penguin:

PP and Cheeky are fine, both are being responsive and give fair explanations of their actions (although I'm waiting for Cheeky to explain the townread on chazary).

It's still the same, basically. It's not a lot, I know, and it's subject to change after I read the whole discussion between ETL and PP.

Then, later, I voted Chazary because by that point votes actually had done a pretty solid job of making people talk. So I voted him in order to get him involved in the conversation. However, my vote on Chazary was followed by a completely random vote on Arthur, followed by a completely random vote on PP (both by Chazary, but still). This made me think whether my vote could actually help me learn something this time. Unlike the situation in the first posts with the first couple of votes, this was no longer the case, a simple vote wasn't going to cut it.

So I decided to unvote Chazary in order to avoid starting some kind of wagon as with Gyro

. Also, I'm really curious as do when do you think Cheeky "questioned me" prior to me unvoting Chazary.

Why do you want to avoid starting wagons? Or is it something specific about not wanting to start a wagon on chazary specifically?

Oh no, it's not player-related. I'm just not a fan of them during RVS, I don't believe they do a good job in providing people with information, and in our case, considering we're in a Newbie game, some players who are less experienced and are at the receiving end of a wagon may panic and slip up because of that, regardless of alignment, which, considering the ratio between Town and Mafia players, is not in Town's favor.

[Ph0enix]

Also, welcome, Pine!

[Ph0enix]

Okay, so:

As for the discussion between PP and ETL, ETL's arguments against PP were, to a great extent, unfounded, such as him "harassing" me to unvote, despite him not harassing me and me not voting at that time, and also the argument that he is defending Cheeky, which was (almost) solely based on one quote which she messed up during her post, somehow.

As for ETL vs. Cheeky:

I agree that ETL's contradicting herself, given the fact that she said Cheeky was trying to "set up a distance from a buddy" and putting Gyro/Mitillos in Town on her readslist.

I believe both are making too much of their votes against each other, given the fact that we were still in RVS back then.

And that's about it. Overall, PP, now that I read that discussion as well, has still not given me a reason for me to think he's scum, so that's good.

Something's really bugging me when it comes to ETL. Unfounded accusation of PP, followed by what is to me an unfounded accusation of Cheeky as well, makes me want to put him in "possible scum" territory.

As for Cheeky, solid defense.

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix please note that I wasn't trying to prove you were scum but I was just giving an explanation for suspecting you. Farren asked me if I had any reads and asked me why I thought Ph0enix was suspect. I just explained my reasoning to him. I don't think you're scummier than ETL and Chazary.

So I'll assume my response was unsatisfactory and you still suspect me. Quite interesting.

[Ph0enix]

VOTE: chazary

Imagine this vote in a bikini. Can't have it being charged with indecent exposure or something. Or maybe a strategically placed cloud passing by in just the right spots.

It looks like Mitillos and Darren want to lynch Chazary. It looks like a coupla other guys (including me) want to lynch ETL. While I think both of them are suspect, we should agree on one person, the most suspect person, to lynch. I think some good points have been made about Chazary. I want to hear more from him. VOTE: Chazary

Also to explain why I voted for Chazary, I initally was voting for ETL but I saw we weren't getting anywhere, so I switched to Chazary. I wasn't trying to lynch anyone, I just switched so there'd be a better chance of getting a read out of someone.

Given the fact that your sole argument against her had to do with a RVS vote, what did you think your vote was going to accomplish? Also, I still miss what was the actual reason you voted Chazary (unless it was a RVS vote, which would be questionable, considering we were out of RVS by that point, imo). Please quote the post if I've missed it, and explain if not.

[Ph0enix]

Something's really bugging me when it comes to ETL. Unfounded accusation of PP, followed by what is to me an unfounded accusation of Cheeky as well, makes me want to put him in "possible scum" territory.

How the fuck is t unfounded when I SHOWED EXCATLY WHAT POSTS GAVE ME THAT IMPRESSION? Like who the hell are you to tell me what I’m seeing isn’t there? What are you even saying? Like where are you pulling this garbage from? Are you just making it up to sound like you’re involved and doing town things?

The fact that you quoted posts which you think support your statement doesn't necessarily make the accusation less unfounded. Plus:

Also shame on you cheeky for throwing shade on me for wanting to get rid of gyro. He was toxic AF. If I was intent on pushing policy lynches I would have fucking voted him AND YET I DIDNT EH? but sure. Shame on me for mentioning it lol

Everything you have said about me is twisted bullshit and it makes me more and more confident my read is correct.

I’m your biggest threat. So of course you’re going to try to misrep everything I say instead of explaining why I’m wrong.

This odd kind of defensive response will come back to bite you, just saying.

FoS ETL

@Phoenix: So, are you down to two possible scumreads? If so, why are you not voting for one of them? If not, how else have your reads changed?

To answer that question. There's still a discussion between me and Chazary about him accusing ETL right out of the gate. I'm also still not sold on his votes earlier. However, due to him being more active in the last couple of days and his recent posts, in which he makes some valid points. I obviously agree with him for questioning Arthur for his seemingly random vote on him. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, there are other more important things that need to be taken care of right now.

So, to answer Mitillos' question directly, as far as scumreads go, right now I'm down to ETL and Arthur. As to why I haven't voted yet, I'm still waiting for him (Arthur) to answer my question. Plus, the more I wait, the more I question ETL's alignment, we've gotten quite some evidence about her being scum in the last couple of days. So I'm not sure who is more suspicious. But, in light of recent events, my guess is that there will be a vote from me soon.

[Ph0enix]

Lots of people discussing how scummy I am and not voting me. That’s scum driven 100%.

Again, I'm just waiting for Arthur to answer my question and see whether he'll slip up more than you already have, which, considering the fact that you continue being super defensive despite not having a lot of votes on you, is not that likely.

[Ph0enix]

For the third time, I voted for Chazary because I found him suspicious. Its not like I was trying to jump on the bandwagon to get him lynched. Now he's answered some of the questions and I don't find him as scummy, I'm unvoting him. I'd vote for EspeciallyTheLies now, but some idiot will probably think thats scummy as well.
I'd also rather people not get the wrong idea about me from misunderstanding my vote. UNVOTE: Chazary

Well that surely tipped the scales:

Post 161: "6) chazary1: Probably town"
Post 164: "Chazary hasn't done anything to scummy so far."
Post 209: "Well Chazary explains that he initially voted for me so that everyone would have a vote. He then switches to Penguin, someone else who has no votes.

I think it's forgivable because he just came out of inactivness and wasn't aware the game had moved out of RVS.

He explains this and unvotes Penguin."
Followed by the vote on Chazary in post 210.
Post 257: "I wasn't trying to lynch anyone, I just switched so there'd be a better chance of getting a read out of someone."
And the next important post is the one quoted above.

And now we come to the contradiction. First, why the sudden change of opinion when it comes to Chazary's alignment? One time you have nothing against him and suddenly you find him suspicious without even bothering to say what you find suspicious about him. Second, if you were indeed suspecting him, why did you watch from the sidelines instead of asking some questions yourself like I do right now? Unless by "he's answered some of the questions" you refer to your questions, which would be absolute nonsense considering you haven't asked him any questions. Also, I'm seeing a similar pattern here - what's with the defensive reaction?

"Some idiot will probably think that's scummy as well." ???

No we will not unless we have a good reason to believe so. But if your reasoning for voting ETL would have been similar to the one you have for voting Chazary, then how would you expect us to not think that's scummy? That's just playing the victim card right there.

Possible scum: Farren, Arthur, Chazary

Why aren't you voting one of these?

Again, I'm just waiting for Arthur to answer my question and see whether he'll slip up more than you already have, which, considering the fact that you continue being super defensive despite not having a lot of votes on you, is not that likely.

(you in the quote referring to ETL)

So, @PenguinPower, I have already given my reason for not having voted yet. But, in the light of recent events...

VOTE: ArthurConyl

[Ph0enix]

That's why you don't use a reaction as the sole reason for doing something. Wagons are great for information, especially later on. Maybe this is a playstyle thing, but refusing to vote because "wagons" denies us of information to analyze you and others with.

Fair statement.

[Ph0enix]

Welcome, Enter!

[Ph0enix]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

Both of these points seem really nitpicky.

Have to agree with PP on this one.

[Ph0enix]

@Penguin: Early on, you suggested that Ph0enix get an avatar. Is there a reason you didn't make the same suggestion to Arthur? Also, could you please try to avoid making multiple sequential posts and just collect everything into one post? You have nine posts in a row once and five posts in a row twice.

Both of these points seem really nitpicky.

Have to agree with PP on this one.

Didn't see your post below, I thought you were using that as evidence against him. Fair enough then.

[Ph0enix]

It's not a quantity thing, it's a quality thing. An engaged town penguin has pretty strong opinions and yet is relaxed/fun. I'm seeing a stiff shadowy player with minimal engagement.

Given the fact that playstyle can vary from game to game, regardless of alignment, and so is not a constant, and is also dependent on outside factors, don't you think it's a bit much to make that a sole argument against someone in order to vote for them?

Also, @Pine, could you elaborate more on your PP vote? I mean, it may be just me, but what I am seeing here currently is the start of a really questionable wagon against PP.

I am also genuinely curious as to Enter's opinion on Farren, looking forward to that.

[Ph0enix]

Given the fact that playstyle can vary from game to game, regardless of alignment, and so is not a constant, and is also dependent on outside factors, don't you think it's a bit much to make that a sole argument against someone in order to vote for them?

Not at all. These arguments are called "meta" reads and they're commonly used when players know each other. PP and I have history, this read isn't based on one game.

How does one not interpret that as: "I have no other arguments against PP, so I'm just going to say that the fact he's quieter this game is making him suspicious in my eyes, even though I absolutely cannot say for sure that PP not being as active as I'm used to him being is even a solid argument given the fact that a change of playstyle is not necessarily alignment indicative."?

Enter, post 376: "Penguin's vote for this slot on Page 12 looks pretty opportunistic. I haven't seen anything from Penguin that makes me think he's not scum - his posting feels somewhat formulated, his resistance to the lack of momentum on my slot is worth a second look at later on in the game - and I think I'd be willing to lynch that slot as well, today."

So where is that "second look"? You just voted him directly.

Also the fact that Pine unvoted PP instead of answering my question as to why he voted him in the first place raises some suspicion. I'm not convinced by his "Starting a full read" statement.

Yeah this is looking TvT.

How's that?

[Ph0enix]

I don't post every thought that crosses my mind. Posting "catch-ups" and "thought responses" to every post and explanations for every action and vote is actually somewhat of a rarity for me as of recently.

If that's actually the case, doesn't that simply result in needless additional pressure onto you from other players, provided you are Town? I don't see how speaking your mind would be a problem, we are all looking for information, after all. Preferring to not do so, however? I mean, how am I supposed to react to the fact that you are explaining such a vote on another player through playstyle alone?

[Ph0enix]

The only information town needs from me is my alignment.

Directly, yes, but indirectly it may lead to other people giving information as well (both on purpose or because of a mistake). Sure, you may say, given my previous sentence, that that makes me suspicious and that it sounds as if I'm simply trying to get more information out of others in order to have a better idea of who to kill at night or something. After all, it lines up with your statement below:

In general large reads lists with a lot of depth and every thought allows scum players to comfortably understand the game state without having to actually enter a town mind set.

Which is a fair statement, but given the fact that silence and less information is, without a doubt, in favor of scum, is it beneficial to scum only? I believe it goes both ways.

Also, none of this explains the vote on PP. And by the way, there's a scenario where you wanted to jump on the PP wagon as the third vote and now that Pine withdrew his one you want to change yours but can't because it will undoubtedly seem too shady. As a result, you are stuck with your current vote and trying (not trying yet, but you get my point) to justify a vote that was not meant to be justified in the first place. Unless, of course, you have a valid reason for the vote. So you may want, despite it not being a part of your playstyle recently, as you said, to explain more thoroughly as we have a deadline on our hands.

[Ph0enix]

As far as PP is concerned, if you don't find him interesting enough for your vote based on the current information in the thread, I have nothing to add.

Of course I don't find him "interesting enough" for my vote, given the fact that nobody has voted him for a proper reason and that I don't see a problem with him on my own.

If you're town, you'd like to lunch before deadline and it would behoove you to come to your own conclusions before voting anyways.

I'm not looking for someone to come up with arguments for me to use, you are dodging the question here.

You seem to try to be coming off as threatening and it's somewhat awkward.

I'm being rational here, you are the one that's trying to dodge the question with "I have nothing to add when it comes to PP, all the information needed is already present, you should figure it out yourself anyway" nonsense.

[Ph0enix]

If you don't find him more interesting than the other wagons, don't vote him.

What does that have to do with...? I can't do this all day, it's pretty clear by now that you either cannot explain the vote or don't want to. And I fail to see how the latter makes sense. Either way:

VOTE: Enter

[Ph0enix]

So, I had to catch up as there was a long discussion going on in the last couple of hours on D1. It's a bummer that we lynched the doctor, but, I mean, Enter did this to himself, it's not like we had no reason to suspect him. As for Cheeky, that's really unfortunate as well, even though we weren't always on the same page.

As for the discussion itself, what stood out to me were some of Arthur's posts:

Post #457: "Can you explain why you'd be ok with lynching me and what you find suss about me?" (@Farren)

My friend, I believe you have to reread some stuff in case you are still wondering why people are suspecting you. When it comes to why I am suspecting you in particular, you might want to refer to that post again: 307. Literally the only reason you weren't lynched D1 is because Enter was more suspicious in the eyes of most than you were. Also, you actually still haven't answered the question why you thought Chazary was suspicious in the first place. Although there's a slight contradiction here:

Post #257: "Also to explain why I voted for Chazary, I initally was voting for ETL but I saw we weren't getting anywhere, so I switched to Chazary. I wasn't trying to lynch anyone, I just switched so there'd be a better chance of getting a read out of someone."

Post #334: "I unvoted because I read your posts after my vote and I thought they were leaning towards town. If you (Chazary) read my voting post I stated that we weren't getting anywhere with ETL and I voted for you because I found you the most suspicious other than ETL."

So in the first post, you said that you weren't trying to lynch anyone and just trying to get a read out of Chazary. Fair enough. But then comes the second post, where you say that you find him suspicious. Do you find him suspicious or not? If so, why?

But even if I let that slide, which I won't, obviously, there's still more to it:

It is understandable that a new player would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy. Problem is, it's also understandable that scum would feel uncomfortable about being felt scummy - even more so.

Being new and concerned about how you look doesn't vibe with:

@Enter a good time to claim would be now, someone (including me)'s going to hammer you otherwise

So Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
That reads to me like he didn't want confrontations but is comfortable sheeping the majority. This gives him no accountability for a flip because he's voting with consensus. If he was really a nervous unsure newbie I doubt he'd even think about hammering if he can't stomach voting. His actions and posturing don't add up.

Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself.

@Cheeky, the same goes for your post. I put Chazary at L-2 with my vote and people immediately started scumreading me. As a result I'm not inclined to vote for someone quickly.
I see that Farren has unvoted. Its fairly close to the deadline so I better put Enter back at L-1. I can't really hold back from voting and give Enter more time at this stage. VOTE: Enter

Yeah, we started scumreading you because the vote was unfounded, not because of the vote itself.
And then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?

With all that being said, I believe what I'm about to do (until I get some answers, at least) is completely justified.

VOTE: ArthurConyl

[Ph0enix]

Alright, so you said there was a contradiction between my posts and asked me whether I find Chazary suspicious or not. My posts don't contradict - I felt that Chazary was the most suspicious other than ETL. We weren't getting anything out of ETL, so I switched to try to get a read out of Chazary. I was not jumping on the wagon to lynch him. I only put him at L-2. Afterward my vote, his posts seemed leaning more towards town and everyone was scumreading me for voting him, so I unvoted.

Currently, my opinion of Chazary is more in the middle. Obviously, I still don't trust him to be town, but I wouldn't say I want to lynch him for being scummy. Probably because he acted strangely before my vote, but his posts have seemed more townie since then.

I'll quote the relevant posts below:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440336
Alright so he doesn't start posting until ages after the start. Post #106. He votes for me "to make everyone feels wanted." Not exactly scummy, but weird. Also his late start may suggest lurking. Then Gyro asks him why he voted for me. Then:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11440524
He changes vote to Penguin. If he did this to "to make everyone feels wanted," why didn't he just unvote? He also seems concerned about it being "such a controversial choice." Then when Penguin reminds him we're out of RVS, he unvotes next post. Not scummy, just a bit weird.

As Mitillos puts it:

chazary: What's wrong with controversial choices? Especially if you're trying to see how people will react to being voted (i.e. creating pressure). Also, how is an almost-naked vote on Arthur controversial, but a completely unexplained one on Penguin not? Why would you expect anyone (particularly an SE, who has probably played enough games to have been voted quite a bit) to react to one vote? Generally seems wishy-washy on many things, which can potentially be indicative of newbscum not knowing where and how to target effectively, dipping a toe here and there to see where it's safe to go.

I could give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, although I still don't know why you didn't explain it earlier, it would've been much easier for all of us.

Alright, so you make the following points:
1) Arthur was worried about looking scummy for voting who he suspected but is not worried about hammering someone and how that will look?
In this case, nearly everyone (including me) find Enter/ETL scummy and want to lynch him. People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy. Because no sensible player scumreads someone for that.
2) Then you follow up with a vote on Enter: are you hesitant about voting or not, exactly?
Did I not state (if you'd reread properly) that I was hesitant about voting after what happened with Chazary? That's why I didn't join the wagon (until the end). Then Farren unvoted, stating an intention to hammer if Enter was put at L-1. I wanted Enter lynched, I felt he was scummy. So I joined the wagon so that Farren could hammer him.

So, in 2), you say that you

were

hesistant about voting. However, in 1) you say that you have no problem with voting someone who looks scummy in the eyes of the majority of people. Sooo, you only want to make safe votes? Not a great idea, imo. Cause that was a safe vote at this point, you said it yourself.

Also, "People scumread me after I voted on suspicion for Chazary, but I'm not worried about people scumreading me for hammering someone who actively looked scummy."

From the way you said it, it looks like Enter actively looked scummy, unlike Chazary. So Chazary didn't look scummy after all? If he didn't, you are contradicting yourself, if he did look scummy, given your statement, why would you be worried about people scumreading you in case you have solid statements to support your suspicion of him? I don't see "I don't want to look scummy" as an excuse. As Cheeky stated, people are going to jump on you regardless of what you do, might as well be rational about it, at least their concerns about you will be unfounded in that case, unlike the situation we are in now, ironically, because you did not want to look scummy.

Also, yeah, what's up with Pine? :/

Penguin: you tailed off at the end of D1. On reading your ISO, most of your reads - at least the ones you mentioned - happened in the first half of D1. The second half of D1 - other than your vote for ETL, you're present, answering questions, but ... where's the scumhunting?

Have to agree with Farren on that one. Do you have any reads, what's your take on the current situation?

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

Also, I genuinely thought Pine wasn't posting because he was busy. But I saw he has been active on other threads, so he's simply choosing to ignore this one. Pine, you can't survive until D2 without contributing anything and expect people to not suspect you.

FoS Pine

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix, I did explain [the chazary vote], but maybe I wasn't being the most clear. I apologise for that.
To clear up my vote on Enter - what happened with chazary made me hesitant to participate in the wagon. When we nearly got to the end of D1 and Farren said he'd hammer if Enter was put at L-1, I decided to vote because I thought Enter was scummy and wanted him lynched. Yes, I did say that I was hesitant about voting but I figured that voting at this stage wouldn't cause people to scumread me. Enter was acting scummy and putting him at L-1 would be fairly reasonable.

I don't know, it may be just me at this point, but this statement still fails to convince me. I would love to her the others' opinions on this.

I think Arthur is telling the truth. Arthur's made his priorities pretty clear here - he doesn't want to be scumread.

The problem is that this is one of those cases where scum|Arthur can tell the truth just as easily as Town|Arthur.

For scum, not being scumread is an adequate goal in and of itself. If one scum escapes being lynched the entire game, scum win. Simplistic, but accurate enough for our purposes.
For Town, not being scumread is only part of the picture. Town cannot settle for merely not being scumread. Town has to find the scum and lynch them.

So seeing any player concentrate overwhelmingly on the first at the expense of the second is going to make me wonder if the reason why they're doing that is because they are scum.

Good point.

Considering the fact that Enter/ETL acted extremely scummy and that ETL ragequit, I don't think anyone who voted for him could be scumread.

That's not how that works. Throwing out a vote for someone who is suspicious doesn't automatically make it a reasonable vote from the others' points of view.

Other people who didn't vote for him cannot be scumread either, they may have believed Enter was town or were inactive. (Pine).

Are you ignoring the fact that the sole reason Enter wasn't lynched earlier during D1 is because there was another wagon going on consisting of people that were voting you because you were the other suspicious person apart from Enter? I don't think there was a single person who didn't suspect Enter at least a little. Also, if Enter was so obviously suspicious, how could you not scumread people who didn't vote him, provided they "believed Enter is town"? At this point there should have been a damn good reason to not vote Enter because he provided all the evidence we need in order to conclude that he is suspicious. Of course, in our case, you were that other good reason. But in your hypothetical scenario you are willing to ignore the fact that some people didn't vote for the obviously suspicious player for no good reason at all. Questionable.

Lastly, the Pine situation is getting ridiculous. I'm starting to think that I should put the whole Arthur case on hold and vote him. But I'll give him a little bit more time.

[Ph0enix]

No one has yet stated that because I joined the wagon, they find me scummy.

... Cheeky did. I did. Given the fact that you are the one who has recently started telling people as part of your defense to "go back and reread", it's pretty ironic that you missed that. I mean, technically Cheeky's suspicion of you had more to do with your intent to vote than the vote itself, but it still counts.

To everyone else: I'm not bothered to re-explain things I've already said. If you're going to post some dumb ass post like this one, actually go back and reread. You're legitimately wasting your time posting like this. It comes down to the fact that I've done things I've explained, and you can think it scummy or not. Nothing I say can change your opinion. Nothing you can say can change your opinion. Stop wasting my time as well, unless you have something new to say.

I really don't understand how anyone would believe such a response is helping them in any way.

To all who haven't voted Arthur: What's holding you back? Do you not suspect him at all? Are you giving him time to respond? Something else? It may seem pushy asking you that but I believe Arthur has given us all the evidence we need to suspect him.

@Chazary, Farren: What's your opinion on the current state of the game as a whole? Not that you are not participating actively or something, it's just that most of your recent posts have to do with Arthur (not that we have no reason to discuss Arthur, but still).

Also looking forward to hearing more from Aloratom and from PP as well when he gets back.

[Ph0enix]

His explanation in 148 is total town.

How's that?

@Farren: Reasonable.

[Ph0enix]

Then in 245 he pushes Ph0enix into voting for someone, anyone.

I didn't interpret it that way, that's for sure. There's a fine line between questioning and pushing someone. I think in that case we're talking about the former, not the latter.

[Ph0enix]

So here are my thoughts:
I also note that chazary and Arthur are scum reading each other but not voting there, so I’m wondering if this is distancing - chazary’s eod behavior around the wagons could support that.

Good point. Although, even though Chazary scumreads Arthur, I'm not sure it goes both ways, currently. In his readslist he states that Chazary "Acted weirdly at the start, fairly solid participation since then."
Given his posts since then, it doesn't seem like his opinion of Chazary has changed in any way, so I'm not sure we can call that one a scumread as well, just saying.

[Ph0enix]

Arthur does not feel despondent.
Why does scum|Arthur not vote? Why does Town|Arthur not vote? General question.

Doesn't he? I got quite a "I don't care anymore, do whatever you want" kind of vibe from his post 538. He looks like he's given up on the game, imo.

At this point, Town Arthur does not vote because his votes (or lack thereof) up until now have come back to bite him.

Scum Arthur, though, does not vote for the same reason, so...

I mean, I don't know, the fact that the only thing he's done recently is defend himself instead of questioning others or rereading or trying to find more information in any way whatsoever, makes me think he's scum rather than Town. If I'm Town and someone suspects me, I'll continue to question others and scumhunt, because Town does not win by staying silent. Scum, on the other hand, could be a bit more quiet and get away with it. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I think the whole "Do whatever you want, I can't change your opinion at this point" is a simple bluff which we should not fall for.

[Ph0enix]

I had a vote on him before and it didn’t do much to get him to talk. I don’t want to vote for him now and join the wagon to which I assume will give him more reason to not come back and respond to the accusations. I’d rather lay off voting for him for now to get him back to being active, if that’s why he isn’t right now.

I think we're past the point of him being active, tbh.

And if he doesn’t return I don’t want the new person coming in with so much heat. I’ll still press about the alignment of that slot but I don’t want to vote for someone who might not even be here tomorrow.

If you're sure he's scum, why not?

[Ph0enix]

Why would Arthur flounce if he's scum? If he thinks he's past the point of no return, why not just play it out?

I think there's a better chance for him to flounce if he's scum, to be honest. As a Town he could still give his final thoughts or something before he gets lynched, they could be of use to other Town players, another point of view is never something bad as far as information goes. But if he's scum... yeah, there's not much left for him to do at this point.

Also, you never said why you suspect me (referring to 542)

[Ph0enix]

^^ I am retracting that. I can't find a reason.

Then what made you say you think I'm suspicious in the first place?

[Ph0enix]

@PP: I'm still waiting for that readslist you mentioned earlier.

[Ph0enix]

^^ I am retracting that. I can't find a reason.

Then what made you say you think I'm suspicious in the first place?

Sloppy review. I'm null on you.

Given the fact that the others are pretty unanimous as to what my alignment is, what makes you put me in the "null" category, as you describe it? Not that it's a bad thing to not townread me, I just want to hear the reasoning behind it.

[Ph0enix]

@Arthur: If you're even still here, post your thoughts, you can't go wrong at this point, you may have something valid to say and we don't want the Enter situation repeated (even though there was a fair reason for us to vote him, as there is for you now as well).

[Ph0enix]

^^ I am retracting that. I can't find a reason.

Then what made you say you think I'm suspicious in the first place?

Sloppy review. I'm null on you.

Given the fact that the others are pretty unanimous as to what my alignment is, what makes you put me in the "null" category, as you describe it? Not that it's a bad thing to not townread me, I just want to hear the reasoning behind it.

Interesting phrasing. Why are you concerned that I''m not townreading you and not that I'm not scumreading you?

I just want a valid reason for either of those. Everything's fine as long as you have something to back up your statement with.

[Ph0enix]

If you are not sure what someone's alignment is usually you either don't have enough information in order to have a read on them (which, 24 pages in, seems unlikely), or you have some things that bug you about them and some things that you like about their activity at the same time. In your case I'll assume we are talking about the second option. So I would like to hear in more detail.

[Ph0enix]

^^ I am retracting that. I can't find a reason.

Then what made you say you think I'm suspicious in the first place?

Sloppy review. I'm null on you.

Given the fact that the others are pretty unanimous as to what my alignment is, what makes you put me in the "null" category, as you describe it? Not that it's a bad thing to not townread me, I just want to hear the reasoning behind it.

Interesting phrasing. Why are you concerned that I''m not townreading you and not that I'm not scumreading you?

I just reread it and realised why my phrasing concerns you. Most of the others thus far have townread me, that's why. Your opinion differs, that's my point, so I'm curious.

[Ph0enix]

Some thoughts on PP's reads:

Interesting take on Mitillos. After rereading his posts, though, I have to agree with the lack of follow-up to some of his questions. When it comes to his light posting on D2, I also think it's due to the gamestate.

As for Chazary, I didn't have a problem with him on D1, apart from his early votes. On D2, however, given the fact that he put PP in the scumreads for no good reason and that he still hasn't voted for the one person he was sure is scum, I'm starting to suspect him.

@Aloratom: Let me rephrase what I said earlier: If someone gets a null read, there's two options for that to be the case:
1) There's not enough information for you to safely say that the given player is town or scum and you prefer to default players to null, rather than Town.
2) Some things about the given player make him/her suspicious in your eyes, while others make you think the player might be Town. Given those two, you find that the player currently stands somewhere in the middle - null read.

I refuse to believe there is a lack of sufficient information as of now, so option 1 is out.

We're left with option 2. So you have arguments for me being Town, as well as for me being scum. As of now you've provided the latter (though unfounded, imo, as you are concerned as to my votes during the RVS stage, which I don't believe to have been questionable). As for the former, yeah, I could count that, although it's a bit vague. I'll let it slide for now. Looking forward to seeing how/if your read changes.

[Ph0enix]

Arthur reads everyone as town. But then he votes Phoenix and still hasn't given an explanation. If he has one I want to hear it.

Again, Arthur never voted me, I voted him. In Plotinus' posts, on the left is the person voted, an on the right - who voted them. I voted Arthur, not the other way around because I think that's what you are referring to.

[Ph0enix]

Current reads on everyone:

Ph0enix - Town

Ph0enix

- Leaning scum, in D1 he was sort all over poking votes at others and taking them back but D2 I think he performed well.

Excuse me, what?!

[Ph0enix]

Farren has stated he wants to hammer. If you want to give me a chance, I guess now's the time to unvote. I'll claim if no one wants to do that.

Oh I most definitely do not want to unvote.

[Ph0enix]

OBLIGATORY ARTHUR QUOTES LIST:

Chazary

hasn't done anything too scummy so far

. (164)

I think

it's forgivable

because he just came out of inactivness and wasn't aware the game had moved out of RVS. (209)

(Vote on Chazary)

(210)

On the current Enter situation, Enter's playstyle is not overly scummy (but leaning that way), but ETL was both scummy and unhelpful to town. Lynching (Enter) can't be too much of a bad thing in this scenario. I'm not going to hammer because Enter hasn't claimed yet. @Enter a good time to claim would be now,

someone (including me)'s going to hammer you otherwise

. (456)

In any case, what happened with Chazary has

made me hesitant to vote, especially to put anyone at L-2 or L-1.

(471)

Hammering someone at this point is understandable, even desirable, so no

I am not concerned about hammering

.
(475)

Also I've never voted for Ph0enix. I thought he acted a bit weird at the start but

comes off as town since then

. (539)

Ph0enix - Leaning scum

(601)

I would explain once more what's wrong with these quotes but I think they speak for themselves. So, for those who are unsure of their vote, let the above be some food for thought.

[Ph0enix]

Also, @Arthur, I have a little bit more time and then I won't be able to post until Farren hammers, as it seems. So, in case you have something to say that could make me reconsider my vote, the stage is yours.

[Ph0enix]

I'm dead now either way.

I claim town cop.

First night I investigated Chazary.

Chazary is mafia.

Why didn't you say that earlier then, I don't understand?

[Ph0enix]

Same, you earned my unvote for now.
UNVOTE: Arthur

[Ph0enix]

VOTE: Chazary

(L-1)

Also, RIP Farren. :/

[Ph0enix]

Welcome to the endgame, boys. A couple of initial thoughts:

PenguinPower

Starts off by hopping on the Gyro bandwagon when Gyro already had 2 votes on him, completely unnecessary move, imo, his reasoning being "I like wagons" (64).

Continues with some basic questions, some addressed to me, but then again, it was the beginning of D1, we had to work with what we had.

And then we get to the interesting part: the interaction between him and Chazary. Given the fact that Chazary was mafia, I now had to reread the whole interaction between the two again, only this time considering if it's a TvS or SvS scenario. It starts off by Chazary voting Arthur and then quickly changing to PP. May've been random, may have been possible distancing from the beginning. Then he proceeds to unvote because he "misread the voting"? Both suspect Gyro, though Chazary doesn't vote for him, cause by that time he's being replaced, and PP does. Chazary asks PP why he hasn't unvoted Gyro, PP answers and Chazary quickly agrees, even though PP didn't have enough information in order to make a vote on Gyro that could not be considered a part of RVS (and we were past RVS by that point).

PP then asks Chazary whether the latter's vote on the former gave him any information. In his answer in 174 he gives no information whatsoever. Then again, this particular vote didn't give me any information either, so I'll give PP the benefit of the doubt when it comes to that interaction.

After that there's the whole ETL vs. PP but I still don't think ETL's arguments back then made much sense, so I'll ignore that.

The rest of the interaction between the two on D1 consists of questions that could be legitimate as well as asked in order to simulate a conversation.

Suspects Enter and votes him, but lets the others do the questioning instead of him (me, Farren, etc.), which does rub me the wrong way. By the end of D1 he's just answering questions instead of scumhunting as Farren pointed out in 505.

On D2, he continues to suspect Chazary, as pointed out in 536, although the reasons for that in this particular post are questionable. "Hesitancy over hammering Enter" despite obvious intent to hammer Enter and also the response "Poor Cheeky", which under no circumstances should be used as an argument against anyone. Also suspects Arthur but doesn't question him. In 541 I asked the people who hadn't voted Arthur by that point for their hesitancy to do so, given the fact that Arthur was obviously suspicious. Ignores my question, but in 565 proceeds to ask Chazary the same question. Then finally votes Arthur to put him at L-1.

FoS PenguinPower

And that's where we are now. @PP: Is there a reason for not voting Chazary once (ignoring D3 when his alignment was already obvious), despite you being suspicious of him basically from the start?

Pine/Aloratom

I hope we can agree that Pine didn't contribute in almost any way. So, Aloratom:

His explanation as to why he thinks Chazary is town in 542 still doesn't make sense to me. Suspects me, then later says he takes it back cause he can't find a good reason (???). I get a null read from him, which I would like him to elaborate more on now, considering his only arguments against me had to do with the votes during RVS. Didn't ask me any follow-up questions in order to have a better idea of what my alignment might be either.

FoS Aloratom

That's all from me for now, guys, it's your turn now. FoS on both (more on PP than on Aloratom, currently, but that is subject to change, of course). I especially want to hear more from Aloratom cause I haven't heard as much from him in general. I also would like to make the following point clear (even though it's obvious): Whoever makes an unfounded vote at this point must understand that that same vote is the only evidence the other two will ever need in order to lynch that particular person.

[Ph0enix]

I just want to quickly address Aloratom's point as to why I unvoted Gyro so long after the follow-up votes from Cheeky and PP. It may sound like an oddly convenient explanation, but by the time Cheeky and PP voted I was asleep and unvoted as soon as I came back. Will read PP's and Aloratom's posts in more detail soon.

Also, Happy New Year! <3

[Ph0enix]

That's kinda why I thought it was scummy. There was an obvious intent to hammer from Farren...why did chazary feel the need to make an "intent to hammer" when Farren was already going to? It came across as wanting to suspect Arthur without actually taking action. Though, my rationale here doesn't hold up anymore since they weren't partners. I explained this in 536.

Yeah, that's a better explanation than in 536, that's fair.

also the response "Poor Cheeky", which under no circumstances should be used as an argument against anyone.

Absolutely disagree. Reading tone of posts can be a good way to read people, especially if it comes across differently from their regular posting.

Maybe, but in this case I don't see how judging him based off of that is different than flipping a coin. I don't think that was something you should have questioned him about, given the fact that there was other evidence at that time.

Is there a reason for not voting Chazary once (ignoring D3 when his alignment was already obvious), despite you being suspicious of him basically from the start?

Because, I had two stronger scum reads D1 and D2 (as explained) (353, 545, and 583) and part of chazary was associative.

Yeah but why not push them then, that doesn't seem right. "Allowing people to interact without interruption" is not a valid excuse, imo. It's one thing to be pushed by 1 or 2 people, and it's a completely different thing to be pushed by even more people - if more people had jumped on Enter, for example, he could have claimed, which would have changed the way the game played out entirely. Until the last minute he thought we weren't going to lynch him in the end. I mean, look what happened with Arthur, basically everyone was on him and it played out differently. In 352/353 you say that you are not happy that both wagons collapsed, but didn't do much after that to convince the others that something's wrong with either of the two.

[Ph0enix]

casting suspicion on both Ph0enix and me (also 542) because he hasn't seen enough from either of us. Then, in post 554 (after I've made like 2 game related posts) he now has me as a townlean with arguably the same content. When pushed on Ph0enix read he retracts and holds solidy in null, but opens today with a townread on Ph0enix without explaining it but uses it as a supporting reason to push me.

Yeah, his change of heart when it comes to my, as well as your, alignment rubs me the wrong way.

Maybe, but in this case I don't see how judging him based off of that is different than flipping a coin. I don't think that was something you should have questioned him about, given the fact that there was other evidence at that time.

I don't know what to tell you...many players here play by tonereading.

No, that's fine, I just don't think that Chazary's response was a legitimate point as to his alignment in this particular case.

I did push Arthur, so I'm not sure what you are referring to there.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as well:

545: You scumread Arthur.
583: You scumread Arthur.
584: You vote Arthur.

You could say I pushed him, but you? We either have a different definition of "pushing" or there's more to that.

[Ph0enix]

Hi, Penguin.

[Ph0enix]

Go ahead and cross vote Alora.

Because?

[Ph0enix]

That was kinda mean birdfriend.

Birds have to support each other, you know.

[Ph0enix]

Unless you’re trolling scum, but I don’t see why scum!you wouldn’t hammer there.

I think you answered your own question.

[Ph0enix]

Why would you vote as Town, though?

[Ph0enix]

I pretty much explained my stance in 668. I don’t see a world where you are scum over Alora, so I was willing to bet the game on it via a hammer test instead of waiting.

Great, but how am I supposed to interpret your vote now:

As Town: you are 100% sure I'm not scum. I, however, don't know which one of you is Town and which one - scum. In this case, it would've been better to not vote, because you are the only one who has information to gain from it, and if you're so sure I'm scum, why bother? The move now just makes me want to consider the other scenario:

As Scum: You know we both are Town, you are putting up a facade. Makes more sense than if you're Town, in case I take the bait that you were "worried" and awaiting my vote (or lack thereof), which you obviously couldn't care less about if you were Scum, unless you are considering the scenario where I, as Town, vote Alora now. I really hope that if you are scum you haven't considered that a realistic option.

[Ph0enix]

I mean - you're going to have to figure out which one of Alora/I is scum regardless of if I voted you or not.

That's the point.

FYPOV it's me or Alora. From Alora's POV it's me or you. FMPOV it was you or Alora. I made the decision that you were unlikely to be scum, and you've now been removed from the pool, which places the decision squarely on you and eliminates you as a potential lynch option. If I am scum, why would I eliminate you as a potential option?

Because Alora most probably wouldn't vote me anyway and you are willing to risk it in order to gain my trust. I was never a lynch option. Placing the decision on me and making me question your alignment at the same time - that's a good combination.

[Ph0enix]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Ph0enix]

Well played, guys. Had a lot of fun, hopefully will stick around.

@Ph0enix What brought you around?

I hadn't played in a while on a forum (which I wanted to do, cause, in my opinion, playing on a forum is the best Mafia experience, as opposed to playing IRL, for example) and I stumbled upon this site.

Last, but not least, thank you, Plotinus, for the great modding <3

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix What brought you around?

Well, I found out I apparently don't know what "bring around" means. I guess you are referring to why I ended up voting PP. To be honest, my job would have been far more difficult (cause there were stuff that bugged me about you both) had it not been for PP's opening vote. I didn't see a reason for it whatsoever (provided PP was town, that is; I explained in a previous post why I find the vote only makes sense for PP to make if he's scum).

[Ph0enix]

@Ph0enix What brought you around?

Well, I found out I apparently don't know what "bring around" means. I guess you are referring to why I ended up voting PP. To be honest, my job would have been far more difficult (cause there were stuff that bugged me about you both) had it not been for PP's opening vote. I didn't see a reason for it whatsoever (provided PP was town, that is; I explained in a previous post why I find the vote only makes sense for PP to make if he's scum).

I would have made the same vote as town in that situation (with the same read strength).

Hm. Interesting.