Mini Normal 2115: Fin

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Chara

Because I can never tell if you’re Chara or Not.

[Alchemist21]

Rejoice my comrades! I have found the traitor in our midst! Permanent record!

VOTE: JTheophrastus Bartholomew

Traitor crumb?

VOTE: Macabre

[Alchemist21]

I'm a slave to my dependency on others. Am I actually going to finish a game with Wimpy this time? I'm busy.

based on history I’ll say probably not but if people leave me alone it could happen.

What do you mean by “leave you alone?”

[Alchemist21]

Does that phrase have a secondary meaning I’m not aware of?

You’re not going to replace out just because people suspect you are you?

[Alchemist21]

i know i've played with others on the list, but the only one i remember anything about is Alch. hello Alch!
insomnia feels very familiar but i'd need my memory jogged on that. it's like a sieve up there.

Hi Chara!

[Alchemist21]

so what I mean when i say "leave me alone" is basically don't argue with me for 20 pages. If you don't like my reasons, move on cause arguing isn't going to change my mind. If anything it's just going to make me double down. If you want to have a calm rational discussion that's another thing but nobody ever wants to do that.

Ok that’s reasonable.

[Alchemist21]

The question still doesn't help you figure him out though.

It tells me if he’s the type of player to respond poorly to pressure or not which is important to know if he is. His response tells me he’s not that type of player.

[Alchemist21]

The question still doesn't help you figure him out though.

It tells me if he’s the type of player to respond poorly to pressure or not which is important to know if he is. His response tells me he’s not that type of player.

Have you played with wimpy before?

No.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist, what do you think of this post?

I don’t think anything of it. I don’t really think anything of Macabre’s post either but I thought the vote might get us out of RVS.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist, what do you think of this post?

I don’t think anything of it. I don’t really think anything of Macabre’s post either but I thought the vote might get us out of RVS.

Everyone looks exactly the same; how can you make heads or tails out of them?

I have a Townread on Insomnia and a lesser Townread on Wimpy.

I’ve played with Insomnia before and know he has an aggressive playstyle and he seems to be making several early prods to form his reads. Also this post bleeds Town:

Upon a re-read, it doesn't look like I painted it to be, maybe I exaggerated it, but devoid of context it looked like a personal attack. My bad.

The question still doesn't help you figure him out though.

If Insomnia were scum just looking for a reason to push me I doubt he’d immediately post a correction on how he read my post.

As for Wimpy, I didn’t like the “Hi” entrance and with the “if people leave me alone” comment I thought he could be nervous scum but from his response to me and his general willingness to talk to everyone I don’t think that’s the case and put him as slight Town for it.

[Alchemist21]

My own quote shouldn’t be in that post.

[Alchemist21]

It just feels out of place, I don’t see the town motivation behind seeing whether someone reacts poorly to pressure. You just see that when it occurs.

Yeah but a lot of times poor responses lead to more votes and I figured knowing ahead of time would prevent an unnecessary bandwagon for something that’s actually NAI.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, what does the fact that he responds easily to pressure help you with?

Like, if you push him and he starts panicking what do you do?

I’d probably give him some breathing room. I know I have a tendency to tunnel and I don’t want the knee-jerk reaction from me or anyone to be to take a poor reaction from someone who always reacts poorly as a sign that they’re scum.

Wimpy was talking with the thread even before I said something about him and still is after. If he’s scum trying to avoid pressure I think he’d try to be more under the radar. And when he said he meant he didn’t want 20 page arguments I thought that was a lot more reasonable than what I thought he had meant.

[Alchemist21]

@Ame

Why did you vote Profii?[/b]

[Alchemist21]

What didn't you like about it?

It was short and lacked an RVS vote.

As for the Profii vote, that makes sense. Profii’s actually giving me weird vibes too because they’ll say something about either Insomnia or myself that looks like they’re trying to understand both of our viewpoints but then they seem to doubtcast their own conclusions and I can’t tell if they’re actually confused or trying to play both sides of the discussion without having to commit to a stance on either of us.

[Alchemist21]

It was short and lacked an RVS vote.

And?

It seemed like the kind of entrance nervous scum wanting to stay out of the spotlight would make.

[Alchemist21]

It all falls into place if we believe this sleepy boy sleeps with the chimera! Revelation!

Does this mean you think Wimpy is bussing me?

[Alchemist21]

I don’t blame Wimpy. You’re very difficult to understand.

Even now I still don’t know the answer to what I asked in 115 because instead of a simple yes or no you act like

I

confused

you

and then voted me for quoting the wrong post. Like what post did you expect me to quote?

I just realized sleepy boy meant insomnia not Wimpy. See these code names make everything confusing and I’m still not sure if Chimera referred to me or not.

[Alchemist21]

Well I don’t explain. It’s in my sig.

It’s apparent reading the game why. Maybe less fake post restriction and more reading

Well I don’t explain. It’s in my sig.

It’s apparent reading the game why. Maybe less fake post restriction and more reading

You’re sign isn’t showing up actually.

[Alchemist21]

Could you explain how they are the same.

Wimpy: I like bacon
Alch: I don't think Wimpy likes bacon.
Profii: I don't know how Alch concluded that.

What Insomnia is saying: I like that profii pointed out that Alch is wrong.

What you're claiming he's saying: I like that profii concluded that Wimpy likes bacon.

These are completely different things. He town read you for calling out alch, not for reading wimpy correctly.

continuing the theme I see it as

Wimpy: I like bacon
Alch: I don't think Wimpy likes bacon.
Profii: I don't know how Alch concluded that.
Insomnia: I like that profii pointed out that Alch is wrong.
Profii: Alch clearly stated the wrong thing about the bacon issue, like, so blatantly clearly. If I hadn't called Alch out on it, surely someone else would have, surely I dont deserve town points on the merit of essentially reading the post first and replying to it - what must Alch be up to?


I am making the assumption that if I didnt call out Alch, someone else would have - I stand by that.

The bacon analogy Ame and you are using is a poor representation of the conversation.

Wimpy: I want people to leave me alone.
Alch: Do you not want people to talk to you?
Wimpy: They can, I just don’t want them to endlessly harass me.
Alch: Ok that’s fine.

That’s what the conversation was like.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist: Considering the reasoning behind the two posts above, do you still hold somni's post as coming from town? Additionally, if you had to gamble on who mafia were at this point, who would you choose?

I disagree with them and still think Insomnia is Town.

I’m not compelled to move my vote from Macabre but if I had to I would move it to Profii.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist: Considering the reasoning behind the two posts above, do you still hold somni's post as coming from town? Additionally, if you had to gamble on who mafia were at this point, who would you choose?

I disagree with them and still think Insomnia is Town.

I’m not compelled to move my vote from Macabre but if I had to I would move it to Profii.

My perspective on insomnia's 57 is that mafia often dance around their reads because they know they are pushing town and so are sensitive to the fact that their reasoning is flawed in some way. That's the impression I get from somni's read on you. (1) Do you think this is a valid interpretation? (2) And if you still disagree, what specifically makes you think otherwise? Furthermore, you stated that insomnia plays aggressively as town. (3) Have you played in a game where he was scum? (3a) And if not, what makes you think he wouldn't play the same way as scum? Surely he'd want to emulate his town style.

I wasn't clear with my question before: (4) if you had to gamble on who the mafia

team

was at this point, who would you choose? Basically, I'm interested in your suspicions other than profii. If you're not comfortable answering the team question, I'd just like to hear your general suspicions on players (not town reads).

(5) For what reason are you not inclined to remove your vote from Mac? You stated before that your vote was just an attempt at moving out of RVS.

When you respond, could you number each question as provided?

To add to Wimpy's post: it is AI because it indicates that were not making a genuine attempt at game solving and that your reasoning was made up after the fact in response to somni's inquiry.

I’ll answer 1-3 jointly because the answers are all related. I think the other takes on Insomnia are understandable and my disagreement is largely based on my previous experience with Insomnia. I’ve only played with him once, as Town, but I do think he’s Town here because he’s taking our history into account when trying to read me. He could mimic an aggressive style as scum, but last time we were both Town and got into a big argument with each other and it didn’t exactly end well for me. If he was scum who wanted to push me he could have just done the exact same thing and it would have looked just like last time and he could have just written me off as a bad player if he got me lynched to absolve himself of the mistake. I don’t really see him being scum taking the WIFOM route of taking our history into account because why would scum feel a need to tailor their play towards a single player they played with exactly once? His quick timing to correct himself also comes off as more Towny to me - scum would more likely have double checked their post to make sure what they said makes sense. This looked like a knee-jerk response followed by realization they read the post wrong.

4) I don’t have any other suspicions right now so I can’t try to name a whole team right now.

5) Macabre’s posts are confusing to me and if they continue to be then I doubt I’ll be able to read him and would rather lynch it than keep having to keep being confused. If I stop being confused by their posts then I’ll be willing to change my vote. My problem with Profii isn’t big enough to change from Macabre because I can develop a better understanding of Profii to know if they’re scum or not as the game goes on.

[Alchemist21]

Spoiler:

@Alchemist: Considering the reasoning behind the two posts above, do you still hold somni's post as coming from town? Additionally, if you had to gamble on who mafia were at this point, who would you choose?

I disagree with them and still think Insomnia is Town.

I’m not compelled to move my vote from Macabre but if I had to I would move it to Profii.

My perspective on insomnia's 57 is that mafia often dance around their reads because they know they are pushing town and so are sensitive to the fact that their reasoning is flawed in some way. That's the impression I get from somni's read on you. (1) Do you think this is a valid interpretation? (2) And if you still disagree, what specifically makes you think otherwise? Furthermore, you stated that insomnia plays aggressively as town. (3) Have you played in a game where he was scum? (3a) And if not, what makes you think he wouldn't play the same way as scum? Surely he'd want to emulate his town style.

I wasn't clear with my question before: (4) if you had to gamble on who the mafia

team

was at this point, who would you choose? Basically, I'm interested in your suspicions other than profii. If you're not comfortable answering the team question, I'd just like to hear your general suspicions on players (not town reads).

(5) For what reason are you not inclined to remove your vote from Mac? You stated before that your vote was just an attempt at moving out of RVS.

When you respond, could you number each question as provided?

To add to Wimpy's post: it is AI because it indicates that were not making a genuine attempt at game solving and that your reasoning was made up after the fact in response to somni's inquiry.

I’ll answer 1-3 jointly because the answers are all related. I think the other takes on Insomnia are understandable and my disagreement is largely based on my previous experience with Insomnia. I’ve only played with him once, as Town, but I do think he’s Town here because he’s taking our history into account when trying to read me. He could mimic an aggressive style as scum, but last time we were both Town and got into a big argument with each other and it didn’t exactly end well for me. If he was scum who wanted to push me he could have just done the exact same thing and it would have looked just like last time and he could have just written me off as a bad player if he got me lynched to absolve himself of the mistake. I don’t really see him being scum taking the WIFOM route of taking our history into account because why would scum feel a need to tailor their play towards a single player they played with exactly once? His quick timing to correct himself also comes off as more Towny to me - scum would more likely have double checked their post to make sure what they said makes sense. This looked like a knee-jerk response followed by realization they read the post wrong.

4) I don’t have any other suspicions right now so I can’t try to name a whole team right now.

5) Macabre’s posts are confusing to me and if they continue to be then I doubt I’ll be able to read him and would rather lynch it than keep having to keep being confused. If I stop being confused by their posts then I’ll be willing to change my vote. My problem with Profii isn’t big enough to change from Macabre because I can develop a better understanding of Profii to know if they’re scum or not as the game goes on.

Thanks! A few more questions:

-Knowing that I am scarf boy and profii is chimera, which of Mac's posts don't you understand?

-Given this:

insomnia - why ask that question? it doesn't help you figure him out

alch - yes it does, it tells me that he responds well to pressure

The bolded is the issue. I don't want to be endlessly harassed doesn't mean I like pressure or I respond well to it. It just means i am not going to take my ball and go home every time I am pressured.

Do you agree that your conclusion of Wimpy was premature/incorrect? (If not, please explain how the last two lines are not true).

-Lastly, do you think this reasoning is valid:

To add to Wimpy's post: it is AI because it indicates that were not making a genuine attempt at game solving and that your reasoning was made up after the fact in response to somni's inquiry.

(And if not, why?)

Macabre thinks I made some kind of Freudian slip with me and Wimpy when I’m trying to understand his posts and am obviously confused by them and I don’t know why and I’m expecting myself to be confused again when he starts talking about more people. Also, the term “sleeps with,” which is what confused me initially, is apparently an accusation of you two being scum together but I never got a clear answer on that from Macabre, and if there are more euphemisms like that in store I’ll probably be confused by them too.

Wimpy keeps saying he actually does respond poorly to pressure so I guess my conclusion is premature. I’m also open to the idea that he’s being modest but if something happens down the line I’ll just remember Wimpy warned us in advance.

Lastly, no that reasoning isn’t valid. Knowing the type of player you’re dealing with is important to developing a better read. Knowing someone’s general tendencies helps filter out what’s NAI from actually scummy stuff in their posts. I think you can look at my conversation with Wimpy before Insomnia asked about it and see I was trying to determine who he was as a player there, I asked for clarification of his posts and when the response wasn’t what I expected I adjusted my take on Wimpy. I don’t see what people think would be the scum motivation for that. I guess people thought the question had a condescending tone and I was trying to stir the pot but in that case I wouldn’t have re-evaluated on Wimpy.

[Alchemist21]

@Aaron

What are your thoughts on me? You’ve said a lot about Insomnia and Profii and most of their posts have been focused around my interaction with Wimpy so I’m interested to see what you think about the topic they’ve been posting about.

[Alchemist21]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

Why did you pick these names for this question. Why did you vote Luca out of all of them?

[Alchemist21]

that finding someone suspicious for opening with "hi" is absurd

Btw I know it sounds absurd but I had a pretty good record of finding nervous scum entrances/early posts so it’s something I like to look for when games start.

[Alchemist21]

Doing an ISO dive on you.

I thought your question towards Wimpy was fine. Like maybe you could've been trying to instigate something there but it honestly seemed like you were trying to figure out whether his reaction to pressure would be personality indicative or alignment indicative which is +town points for you (I'm townleaning Wimpy as well btw). I also have similar thoughts regarding profii although I do disagree with you saying insomnia's 57 was townie.

Overall though I think you're pretty townie.

Please elaborate on your Wimpy Townread too.

[Alchemist21]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

Why did you pick these names for this question. Why did you vote Luca out of all of them?

I don't like the direction you're taking with this question. Hopefully I should not be needing to elaborate.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Alchemist

Yes you need to elaborate, because this looks like you’re just making an easy jump onto my wagon.

[Alchemist21]

In 169 you stated that you were caught up but skimmed and would begin isoing. Later in 175 you confirmed a town read on Aaron. (1) Presumably, you went through his iso at this point, yes?

Over two new pages were produced by the time of your next post, 234. Again, 175 indicates that you were caught up with the thread up to 175, or at least with Aaron up to that point. (2) What prodded you in 234/235 to go back and review pre-175? I presume you had not yet caught up with the 2 new pages because in 237 you stated that you were unaware of Alchemist's post on the previous page. (3) Is this presumption correct?

It's just curious to me that you read back through something you had already read back through and formed a solid opinion on, while there was new content available that you had not yet caught up on.

I skim through the thread and then read back in more detail later - that is my usual habit.

For example, the recent stuff about Frost above I haven’t yet given my attention to - I’ll read back though it when I have the time and energy to do so.

I’m having a change of heart on Frost, based on his reaction to Insomnia’s pressure which comes across as appeasement. I also agree that his Insomnia SR seemed a bit faked in that he doesn’t really do anything with it and just coasts on it for a while until he is pressured into jumping off. And thirdly I agree that it looks as though he had been positioning himself to vote Profii for some time before he did so.

VOTE: Frost

@Macabre / AaronFrost / profii / Alchemist21

:

• Do you find this interaction suspicious?
  
• Do you feel that either of these players is town?

UNVOTE:

I’ve been Townreading Ame. I don’t really know what to make of Luca.

[Alchemist21]

Here you were agreeing with me about insomnia's 57 but now you've turned it around by saying that my SR of insomnia is disingenuous.

Even in that post you quoted Luca was saying how he kinda didn’t like your push there.

Also I don’t really see how as Town you had a lot to say about Insomnia and Profii when they were taking about my posts but somehow weren’t paying attention to my posts enough that you had to ISO me. It felt like it was maybe some kind of chainsaw defense of me that tried to not look like a defense (this might be what Flavor Leaf calls hatcheting, I can’t remember exactly).

I don’t think your reaction to Luca here is Towny either. It feels like you care more about the fact they’re voting you rather than whether or not he’s scum.

VOTE: AaronFrost

[Alchemist21]

You might need to elaborate bc I'm not sure what you're getting at here

The problem is that I probably said too much.

And then there’s this. I really don’t get what your angle is here. How is it “saying too much” to say something about my post towards Looker?

[Alchemist21]

@insomnia agree that aa, al, and pr cannot all be scum together.
aa-pr or aa-al. But pr cleared from being scum with al.

I think if Aaron is scum then Profii is Town. He handled Profii’s early game statements about me the same way he handled Insomnia’s and scum Aaron would have been trying to undermine 2 Town slots’ posts in that scenario.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not seeing this, could you quote the relevant posts?

I looked back for them and realized 181 was about Aaron himself, and there was a response to Wimpy that for some reason I remembered as being a response to Profii as well.

There is still 184 where he kinda throws shade at Profii but that on its own isn’t as solid as what I was thinking. I take back what I said about them never being scum together.

[Alchemist21]

All people on Luca wagon should be evaluated tomorrow.

If this is a jester then omegalul

Jester’s aren’t Normal so this is legit.

[Alchemist21]

So you scumread Alch because he came to the conclusion that you don't respond poorly to pressure which you later responded saying that you don't respond well to it.

Was it the question in 49 that pinged you? Because I could definitely see that coming from scum if he wanted to try and instigate something.

The way the second question is formed makes me believe he’s scum with Alch. He’s basically giving Wimpy a reason to vote him and Alch never picked up on it.

I also find it hard that he’d actually ever say this if Alch was flipping town, here. Sadly.

This is way too reckless posting for a self-aware scum unless he knew he wouldn’t have to face any heat because the person he’s leaning scum to is his scum buddy.

i read this the opposite way, in that it's too reckless to post if Alch is his partner. it's hard to imagine a scum Frost who posts that in the scum PT digging through and giving reasons for his partner to be scum, unless he really thinks it's a bad enough reason to not get traction.

you do have a point i agree with more about Alch not reacting to this.

The only thing for me to respond to here is that I wasn’t trying to instigate anything, which is something I’ve kind of addressed in general and it’s also been pretty much understood by everyone that I wasn’t being malicious.

[Alchemist21]

#476 doesn't come from town Chara.

Regarding PR, Chara is more likely to be so. Aarons "slip" likely wasn't
a slip. It was meant to cut things short and add credibility to the the idea that he wasn't scum with Chara which was the goal of his "defense" post against me (any attempt to further "spew" Chara).

Also lynching Chara gives us the chance to build a proper wagon. And a potential ML that Chara and Wimpy so desire.

I agree 476 is scummy but I don’t see why Aaron would intentionally slip instead of playing normally. It’s fine to not end the Day yet and talk things out but I’d rather lynch confscum before lynching someone else on a hunch.

[Alchemist21]

Pretty sure egix hammered it.

No, Ame’s vote moved from Aaron to Chara and put Aaron back at L-2.

[Alchemist21]

Aaron is definitely the shiny object here!

I might sig this postgame

xD

@Luca, think of it this way: Aaron is an informationless flip, Chara is an informative flip. Having an informative flip increases PR odds of netting scum because of the information it provides and because it reduces the pool of candidates. Why sort Chara out in the night when we can do it now and sort someone else out during the night. Additionally, I think it's likely the scum has already identified likely PRs, so by the time we get to N2 opportunity will likely be diminished.

You are correct that Aaron provides no additional info. That means keeping him around provides no additional benefit from here on out. Posts to and from Chara can still give info and keeping them around lets us get even more info.

[Alchemist21]

I think Alch saying that profii is cleared if aaron is scum is still pretty vague and weird, I barely remember them having any interactions at all. Maybe he can expound on that and give some reasons for that conclusion.

I retracted that because I realized I was wrong about some of Aaron’s posts.

[Alchemist21]

It's mind boggling how someone can slip. It would presume that their scum mate was posting in the thread and he saw their picture and thought it was the scum PT.

The way I think it most likely happened is he had both the game thread and scum PT open on mobile and was zoomed in on the reply box and for whatever reason got mixed up about which tab he was looking at. I can’t really see any benefit to doing it as scum. Even if you think the other scum are me and Profii why would this be the way to go? A slip makes him the obvious lynch and takes away any potential Towncred from bussing. It just makes more sense to me that this was a legit mistake rather than some kind of master plan.

[Alchemist21]

I’d say Chara. Memory issues or not, it still feels like she was trying to doubtcast when she said her Townread on you was eroding. From your conversation with her I can see Town Chara doing it but I can’t shake the feeling that it was intentional.

If not Chara then Eeveelution. He looks like lurkscum because he’s occasionally popping in and giving small inputs that don’t really add anything or show his stances on others.

[Alchemist21]

Good game everyone.