Mini Normal 2115: Fin

[AaronFrost]

Sup dudes

VOTE: profii

Cute dog in your avi

@gobbles: I have regular V/LA on Wednesdays

[AaronFrost]

VOTE: Exix96
I am not a fan of day 1.
I will be keeping up with the thread but don't expect any long detailed reads lists.

Wake is that you?

[AaronFrost]

Spoiler: Dead

Looker
EeveeLution Army
Wimpy
Ame
Luca Blight
Alchemist21
Chara
Macabre
insomnia
JTheophrastus Bartholomew
profii
AaronFrost
Egix96

game over guys

And that concludes this year's MGDQ (Mafia Games Done Quick). Congratulations to Mini Normal 2115 for breaking the world record for the 13 player mini normal category. See you all next year!

[AaronFrost]

Macabre is town. This is a 100% serious read.

V/LA today. Be back tomorrow.

[AaronFrost]

What has Macabre posted in here that he couldn’t post as scum as well?

Your read is awfully rushed. What’s the basis for your read?

VOTE: Aaron Frost

Absolutely nothing, but if I get early gut reads from someone then I'm gonna voice it and see how others react to it.

Gotta start this game somewhere

[AaronFrost]

Does that phrase have a secondary meaning I’m not aware of?

You’re not going to replace out just because people suspect you are you?

What was the point of this post by the way? It made me sick to my stomach actually. It feels really weird and it's like against the grain with the thread state. What were you hoping to achieve with this? I get you know he replaced out of games, but what was this achieving? I felt it really unnecessary.

It's totally off-topic and I interpreted it as a personal attack rather than an attempt at figuring out anything.

What was the point of bringing attention to it? I don't like how overexaggerated this post is. It was just a simple question.

Looks like I found my first serious scum read this game.

VOTE: insomnia

[AaronFrost]

So what are you scum reading me for again?

Mostly for post 56 which felt a little exaggerated and forced to me. Followed by your immediate retraction about two minutes later. To me it read like 'oh shit I said something that might be perceived as scummy better retract it real quick.'

It's not a strong read tbh but it's a start.

[AaronFrost]

Right now I’m trying to understand Aaron’s vote. It also seems forced, like his Macabre read. I do tend to scum read my voters because I think I’m fairly townie. But I don’t really understand what his progression on me was.

There doesn't have to really be a progression on you since we're still early in the game but I like to use my vote to pressure slots of interest. I can then look at reactions, see who agrees/disagrees and move forward from there.

[AaronFrost]

Aaron how do you typically feel about the RVS stage of the game?

RVS is useful in getting people to talk, which eventually leads to discussion and people forming reads. Most games I play tend to move out of RVS pretty quickly and while RVS itself has no impact on my reads, it does get people talking which is useful.

[AaronFrost]

I have no idea what Macabre is trying to say but it's making me laugh my ass off

[AaronFrost]

Well I don’t explain. It’s in my sig.

It’s apparent reading the game why. Maybe less fake post restriction and more reading

Explaining the reason for you read would be pretty helpful tho

Are you referring to Macabre or Alch with the post restriction thing?

[AaronFrost]

So you scumread Alch because he came to the conclusion that you don't respond poorly to pressure which you later responded saying that you don't respond well to it.

Was it the question in 49 that pinged you? Because I could definitely see that coming from scum if he wanted to try and instigate something.

[AaronFrost]

It wouldn’t call it a scum read but yes that was the reason. I don’t know why people are asking about it.

Just trying to figure out your reason behind the read to figure out if it's a genuine or fabricated read. Your reasons feel pretty genuine to me.

[AaronFrost]

People seem to have reads on Profii already. I don't like how Egix96 implied a town read on profii in post 68 and threw shade at those voting him. I think there's a strong chance that if one of profii and Egix96 flip scum, the other one will too

What are your thoughts on profii right now?

I know you said you're not a fan of Day 1 (most people aren't) but it'd still be nice if you participated a little more and let us know what you're thinking.

[AaronFrost]

I disagree with Alch that 57 bleeds Town - I could easily see self-correction coming from scum who worry about leaving themselves open to attack.

That reminds me though that while I agree with Frost's 75, I got a scum ping because he basically just repeated what Insomnia said in his 'correction' post.

Hey Luca

Not gonna lie, I hadn't even seen insomnia's correction until after I posted that but that was my thought when I first read it and I want to see how he responds.

I kind of agree with you on profii. Last game I played with him he felt pretty obviously town. Granted I was scum in that game so I didn't exactly have to read him too much but I could never push him either. Not quite getting the same vibes from him here as he's been mostly under the radar.

[AaronFrost]

but looking back

He made a 'serious scum read' which seemed quite quick
So I asked, dont really know what I was expecting but like his answer was quite... generic?

If he said something like 'RVS is really important because X or Y happens and that means Z' - I'd take a serious scum read more seriously

But because he made a serious scum read and then was quite passive about his attitude to RVS, I dont really take his vote as seriously as he claims and I'll be looking at how he deals with that slot as we go forward.

I mean it was a pretty generic question so I'm not sure what you were expecting either?

I don't expect specific things to happen during RVS. Like I'm not looking for this 'one specific scenario' to play out or anything like that I mostly just observe and talk to other players and eventually that creates some discussion and if I see something that pings me one way or the other then I'll throw it out and see how people react to it.

[AaronFrost]

I kind of agree with you on profii. Last game I played with him he felt pretty obviously town. Granted I was scum in that game so I didn't exactly have to read him too much but I could never push him either. Not quite getting the same vibes from him here as he's been mostly under the radar.

Imagine for a moment that profii is someone you've never played a game with before - what do you think of him now?

Probably more towards null territory but still a scumlean. He's the second highest poster in the game right now but I feel like he hasn't said much of value.

One thing I find interesting about this wagon is that no one has really jumped to profii's defense. Most people seem to have him as a scumread and/or are voting him right now. Is anybody townreading him right now? If so why?

I'm too lazy to count how many votes are on him atm so I'm just gonna wait until gobbles updates us with a VC before I look at the wagon.

[AaronFrost]

To clarify the last arrow, I didn't retract anything, I was just apologizing for making him look like a malicious person, not because of my scum read on him. That's maybe where you and the others found it scummy and where I didn't really explain a lot on, mainly because I thought it would be obvious.

Which also explains why my vote is still standing on Alch. I never retracted my read, I just apologized for blowing that out of proportion.

I wasn't trying to imply that you retracted the read so sorry if it came off that way. What I didn't like was how you acknowledged that it was overblown. It felt like you were trying to do some early damage control.

Someone (I don't remember who sorry) brought up the point that scum!you might be more cautious of how you worded that though so that is something I'm taking into consideration.

[AaronFrost]

@Aaron

you stated in 184 that you hadn't seen insomnia's retraction when you made your vote in 75, but in 133 you referenced his retraction as a part of why you scum read him:

So what are you scum reading me for again?

Mostly for post 56 which felt a little exaggerated and forced to me. Followed by your immediate retraction about two minutes later. To me it read like 'oh shit I said something that might be perceived as scummy better retract it real quick.'

It's not a strong read tbh but it's a start.

Could you clarify.

Sure

Basically both posts gave me pings. 56 felt overblown and forced and then 57 felt like he was trying to do damage control. I thought I commented on 57 after that post but I guess I didn't (maybe I was tired or something not sure).

[AaronFrost]

Doing an ISO dive on you.

I thought your question towards Wimpy was fine. Like maybe you could've been trying to instigate something there but it honestly seemed like you were trying to figure out whether his reaction to pressure would be personality indicative or alignment indicative which is +town points for you (I'm townleaning Wimpy as well btw). I also have similar thoughts regarding profii although I do disagree with you saying insomnia's 57 was townie.

Overall though I think you're pretty townie.

[AaronFrost]

Please elaborate on your Wimpy Townread too.

It's a weak read mostly based on gut tbh but he comes off as honest if a little blunt.

[AaronFrost]

Like maybe you could've been trying to instigate something there but it honestly seemed like you were trying to figure out whether his reaction to pressure would be personality indicative or alignment indicative which is +town points for you

Why though? I think this is a... what do you call it? Flimsy trust tell?

Again, just because he asked if Wimpy's easily falling to pressure doesn't mean that :

a) He's not gonna push him
b) He's actually gonna consider this at some point

Asking him if he falls easily for pressure is literally pointless here. I don't see why it's worthy of town points. It's not sorting Wimpy's role and he didn't even come to the right conclusion with regards to pressure.

I guess the best way to put it is that Alch is really methodical in his approach to what he chooses to focus on out of his own volition. The town read on me, the pressure thing with Wimpy.

Again, asking someone whether they are easily pressured is not an indicator for figuring them, since it's asked in a way that's NAI.

Realistically speaking, when are you ever going to stop pushing someone that you think is scum just because they flail as either alignment? lol

I mean yeah he could push him for other reasons if Wimpy were to do something scummy but if he were to then push Wimpy for flailing or responding poorly to pressure then that would look super disingenuous. I suppose scum!Alch could also use that to avoid pushing that angle.

Basically the question itself was eh but what he did with the response to it was fine.

[AaronFrost]

One thing I find interesting about this wagon is that no one has really jumped to profii's defense. Most people seem to have him as a scumread and/or are voting him right now. Is anybody townreading him right now? If so why?

I am, and it's for something similar to what you've pointed out here - I think that he's been under too much suspicion for too little reasoning (or, to put it another way, I see people voting him but I don't find the reasoning to be all that compelling). I would be very surprised if he flipped red.

Are you townreading him regardless of the fact that his push has had no resistance? Like what are your thoughts on his posting right now?

[AaronFrost]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

Why did you pick these names for this question. Why did you vote Luca out of all of them?

I don't like the direction you're taking with this question. Hopefully I should not be needing to elaborate.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Alchemist

You might need to elaborate bc I'm not sure what you're getting at here

[AaronFrost]

Furthermore, One-eye has stolen a term from the scarf boy to make a case in defense of the Chimera! Yet, this One-eye does not combat scarf boy directly. It acts without conviction. Careful!

Dearest crow, if I may interject, this bug-slayer is actually condoning the acts of they one-eyed one. I believe they and most others in this village have condemned the chimera for his actions.

[AaronFrost]

I think Aaron’s scum as well, he literally has no reason to have his vote on me at this point. Not only is he not accomplishing a thing by keeping it on me, but he’s also directly going against his belief that rvs is made to generate pressure and discussion, get people’s thoughts on someone and see what happens from there.

There’s virtually no attempt from aaron to even figure me out, he placed a vote for something that would look scummy and then never came back to this read.

His questions are also not figuring anyone out.

Funny that you posted this bc I was literally about to switch my vote to profii.

VOTE: profii

I wanted to switch my vote earlier but I thought profii was at like 5 votes and I was too lazy to count them myself to check.

How am I going against my belief of RVS? When I voted for you we were pretty much out of RVS at that point and several other had responded to it saying why they think you're town which is something I've been taking into consideration.

[AaronFrost]

I think I am starting to lean town on you a bit atm but I'll need to do an ISO dive at some point which I don't have a lot of time for atm.

[AaronFrost]

Do I need to comment on every single one of your posts? Just because I haven't commented on them doesn't mean I haven't been observing them or taking them into consideration. They way you respond to the vote is what's telling and I think in general you've responded fairly well to it.

I've also responded to your cases so

[AaronFrost]

I'm not 'posturing' to do anything, I'm trying to figure out where Egix's head is at wrt to his profii townread.

People were asking me why I felt that way, and when I made the vote, that was how I felt at the time. My opinions can change over time and I think this is pretty clear in 220 that the read was starting to turn around.

I didn't move my vote bc A) I thought profii had like 5 votes on him which is why I didn't want to switch until I saw the VC and that's where I would've moved my vote and B) There wasn't a better place other than that to move it to imo.

[AaronFrost]

And now you weren’t gonna switch your vote to profii “just now”, you wanted to get egix to talk on it first, but my post prompted you to do just that.

And where did I ever imply that I didn't intend on switching my vote? Egix is townreading profii so why would I need him to clarify his townread on profii in order for me to vote for profii, who I am currently scumreading.

[AaronFrost]

I think I am starting to lean town on you a bit atm but

I'll need to do an ISO dive at some point

which I don't have a lot of time for atm.

Do I need to comment on every single one of your posts? Just because I haven't commented on them doesn't mean I haven't been observing them or taking them into consideration.

They way you respond to the vote is what's telling and I think in general you've responded fairly well to it.

I've also responded to your cases so

So you haven’t really been observing them.

I have been, but I'll often revisit ISOs and read through stuff again in order to solidify my reads.

[AaronFrost]

I’m having a change of heart on Frost, based on his reaction to Insomnia’s pressure which comes across as appeasement. I also agree that his Insomnia SR seemed a bit faked in that he doesn’t really do anything with it and just coasts on it for a while until he is pressured into jumping off. And thirdly I agree that it looks as though he had been positioning himself to vote Profii for some time before he did so.

VOTE: Frost

I like how you called me out for using insomnia's wording here yet you just did the same thing with this post.

Ngl Luca I'm not really getting town vibes from you either this game.

[AaronFrost]

@Macabre / AaronFrost / profii / Alchemist21

:

• Do you find this interaction suspicious?
  
• Do you feel that either of these players is town?

UNVOTE:

Eh not really, I think Ame's question is fair. Usually I try to get caught up as much as I can before I comment on stuff but I think that's a just a playstyle thing.

I'm getting townvibes from Ame, not sure I like the naked vote on me with no explanation though. Luca's vote is much worse though and I think I'm leaning scum there currently.

[AaronFrost]

And why hadn’t you mentioned the ‘lack of Town vibes’ until now? Again, it seems convenient timing.

The timing of your vote is pretty convenient too.

You were scumleaning me, then townleaning me, then scumleaning me again. Explain that progession.

[AaronFrost]

Also, valuable thing to point out :

> he scum read me for commenting on the whole situation and how it was blown out of proportion
> when I defended myself he said he scum read me for how I retracted my vote
> now he says I initially reacted townie to his vote

Bruh

What I meant was, you subsequent posts AFTER 56-57 have read as townie to me. I don't think I had ever commented on your reaction to my vote up until then.

[AaronFrost]

They way you respond to the vote is what's telling and I think in general you've responded fairly well to it.

Yeah that was the first time I had talked about your reactions to my vote.

@Luca:

They weren't super strong vibes until your 'change of heart' which really pinged me so I didn't really feel the need to comment on them.

[AaronFrost]

It’s convenient indeed how they weren't worth commenting on when I was TR’ing you but suddenly are when I start SR’ing you.

You’ve not exactly had other strong SR’s this game, so it seems strange that you wouldn’t even mention that you felt that way about me.

I didn't comment on your initial scumread of me.

It's Day 1, I don't have a ton of strong reads in general. Most of my Day 1 reads tend to be horribly wrong anyways as you saw in pyp.

[AaronFrost]

So what are you scum reading me for again?

Mostly for post 56 which felt a little exaggerated and forced to me. Followed by your immediate retraction about two minutes later. To me it read like 'oh shit I said something that might be perceived as scummy better retract it real quick.'

It's not a strong read tbh but it's a start.

I like this thought-process, I think Frost is Town.

Also this was the only reason you gave for why you were townleaning me which isn't really a strong reason. Agreeing with someone's logic doesn't necessarily mean that person is town.

[AaronFrost]

I'm not saying you can't change your mind, but I think your progression on me is strange.

Catching up now.

Slight SR's on Profii and Mr Frost, as of the start of page 4.

Starting off with a scumread on me which you don't really elaborate on.

I'm usually quite back and forth in my sorting of Frost but I think he's Town atm.

Followed by a townlean which you do elaborate on but with weak logic. These two in itself are fine (again, it's Day 1, lack of strong reads blah blah blah). This is the part I don't like.

I’m having a change of heart on Frost, based on his reaction to Insomnia’s pressure which comes across as appeasement. I also agree that his Insomnia SR seemed a bit faked in that he doesn’t really do anything with it and just coasts on it for a while until he is pressured into jumping off. And thirdly I agree that it looks as though he had been positioning himself to vote Profii for some time before he did so.

VOTE: Frost

Using insomnia's logic to sheep his read on me. The timing of this feels super convenient. If you had notice my supposed positioning to vote profii earlier then why didn't you comment on it? I already explained like three times why I didn't vote profii.

I disagree with Alch that 57 bleeds Town - I could easily see self-correction coming from scum who worry about leaving themselves open to attack.

That reminds me though that while I agree with Frost's 75, I got a scum ping because he basically just repeated what Insomnia said in his 'correction' post.

Here you were agreeing with me about insomnia's 57 but now you've turned it around by saying that my SR of insomnia is disingenuous.

You're doing a lot of the things that you and insomnia are accusing me of yourself.

VOTE: Luca

[AaronFrost]

You might need to elaborate bc I'm not sure what you're getting at here

The problem is that I probably said too much.

Quite the opposite actually.

I'm very confused by your play right now.

[AaronFrost]

Here you were agreeing with me about insomnia's 57 but now you've turned it around by saying that my SR of insomnia is disingenuous.

Even in that post you quoted Luca was saying how he kinda didn’t like your push there.

Also I don’t really see how as Town you had a lot to say about Insomnia and Profii when they were taking about my posts but somehow weren’t paying attention to my posts enough that you had to ISO me. It felt like it was maybe some kind of chainsaw defense of me that tried to not look like a defense (this might be what Flavor Leaf calls hatcheting, I can’t remember exactly).

I don’t think your reaction to Luca here is Towny either. It feels like you care more about the fact they’re voting you rather than whether or not he’s scum.

VOTE: AaronFrost

He didn't say he disliked my push there, he said that it gave him scumpings because I used similar wording that insomnia did, which I addressed earlier.

Again, I am paying attention but often I'll need to go and reread things or do ISO's to solidify my stance or possibly look for things that I missed.

[AaronFrost]

Doing an ISO dive on you.

I thought your question towards Wimpy was fine. Like maybe you could've been trying to instigate something there but it honestly seemed like you were trying to figure out whether his reaction to pressure would be personality indicative or alignment indicative which is +town points for you (I'm townleaning Wimpy as well btw). I also have similar thoughts regarding profii although I do disagree with you saying insomnia's 57 was townie.

Overall though I think you're pretty townie.

I meant to comment on this before: this conclusion seems unwarranted. Even with the interpretation that Alch's question was non-malicious, it's null at best. Something not being malicious doesn't make it towny. Alch's question and explanation were fairly simple/straigtforward, and something that could easily come from either alignment. How are you differentiating Alch's questioning here as town asking a trivial question from scum asking a trivial question?

btw the not-malicious argument is a straw argument for disagreeing with the accusations made against Alch because no one is arguing that he was being malicious (insomnia retracted that view immediately after suggesting it, and profii denounced the idea that it was strategic in the same post he theorized about it). Note: Chara also used this straw reasoning for justifying his disagreement with the Alch push here. Again, Insomnia's case against Alch is not that Alch was being malicious but rather that [a] his question toward wimpy doesn't actually produce anything of value (based on the reason Alch claimed), and

his erroneous conclusion that wimpy responds well to pressure, suggesting that Alch was coming from the mindset of already knowing wimpy's (town) alignment. If disagreeing with the case, those are the two points that should be addressed.

The question itself was null, but his later responses when asked about it come from a town mindset I think.

64 feels like him trying to figure out whether Wimpy's response to pressure is personality-indicative, or alignment-indicative. He did come to the wrong conclusion (which is null in my opinion). 83 and 99 felt townie to me. I think if Alch were scum he would want to leave that angle open to push down the road instead of closing it off and implying he won't push Wimpy for those reasons. I also got the sense that he was trying to work with Wimpy and get a feel for him as a player, not to use against him maliciously, but to use it to sort him.

[AaronFrost]

I don't get it. Luca's voting for aaron and I don't really see them scum together? Can you elaborate a bit?

I felt they were both suspicious, but unlikely scum together. Wanted to suss out which direction to go. Also wanted for Chara to commit to an Aaron read, but after review, I think he's probably not scum.

After review, I'm sticking with Aaron. #288 is especially scummy.

What's scummy about that?

[AaronFrost]

That's not even remotely a town attitude to have. Like I understand that you find Macabre hard to read, but there's also like 11 other slots for you to sort through so maybe just ignore him for now a focus on those?

[AaronFrost]

What makes you think I’m not sorting people?

The fact that the majority of your ISO is talking about how annoying you find Macabre's posting.

There have been two major wagons this day phase in profii and myself. profii wagon seems to have dissipated (which I'm not sure how to feel about) and you mentioned earlier you don't understand the wagon on me. Can we get more of your thoughts on that?

[AaronFrost]

Okay but what I don't get is why does your annoyance with Macabre's posting style affect your ability to read the other 11 players in the game?

[AaronFrost]

I'll have limited access for the next couple days. I'll respond in full when I can

[AaronFrost]

@Ame:

Your case against my 288 makes no fucking sense.

First of all that post doesn't even address my read on profii, I was correcting Macabre because he said that Chara was defending profii when it was actually scumreading him. The only read I mentioned there was my townread on Chara.

Second the wagon on profii had mostly dissipated by that point, so if profii was my scumpartner then I wouldn't need to be worried about him being lynched nor would I try to push the mislynch on him when the wagon was moving elsewhere. I've made it pretty fucking clear that I was scumreading profii since the start of the game.

Third, I asked that question because profii was a consensus scumread, which is usually a cause for concern. If I really wanted to defend him that bad then I would've done it already.

[AaronFrost]

Frost's attitude towards me mirrors his earlier attitude towards Insomnia - it doesn't seem like he really believed in either read, and is doing nothing to either advance his case or progress his read on me. It feels like he's waiting for someone to get cold feet about his wagon and take up a case against someone else.

It's pretty hard to advance your scumreads when like all the active players are scumreading you and make little to no attempt to engage with me or understand my play here.

We have like half of the playerlist here who has done little to nothing this game and like barely anyone has considered looking there.

[AaronFrost]

Fuck man why am I so bad at playing scum

I probably get lynched today 9/10 times so I'm gonna try my best not to draw associations

[AaronFrost]

fuck

[AaronFrost]

sighhhhh

VOTE: AaronFrost

Why am I so bad at playing scum

[AaronFrost]

That was probably the stupidest thing I've ever done in a mafia game

[AaronFrost]

Eh I think I'm much better at playing town.

Anyways yeah

Just lynch me and save me from my eternal embarrasment

[AaronFrost]

I seriously cannot believe I just did that

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

Should I go for the page 20 pagetop?

[AaronFrost]

CHARA

[AaronFrost]

PAGETOP MOTHERFUCKERS

[AaronFrost]

you know, this reminds me of my favourite topic. day 1 scum lynches lose games. Frost's scumflip is our ticket to losing this one, everyone.

Maybe that was my plan all along

[AaronFrost]

Much WIFOM indeed

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

Am I ded yet?

[AaronFrost]

You know you wanna hammer me

[AaronFrost]

According to all known laws
of aviation,


there is no way a bee
should be able to fly.


Its wings are too small to get
its fat little body off the ground.


The bee, of course, flies anyway


because bees don't care
what humans think is impossible.


Yellow, black. Yellow, black.
Yellow, black. Yellow, black.


Ooh, black and yellow!
Let's shake it up a little.

[AaronFrost]

You know you wanna hammer me

[AaronFrost]

You know you wanna hammer me

[AaronFrost]

You know you wanna hammer me

[AaronFrost]

Aaron is definitely the shiny object here!

I might sig this postgame

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

Stealing this pagetop

[AaronFrost]

[AaronFrost]

I would've tried to turn myself out of that slip if Luca hadn't seen it right away. Once I posted it and realized it wasn't the scum PT I literally facepalmed and just stared at my screen for like 10 minutes contemplating my terrible life decisions.

Sorry profii