Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[SherlockHolmes]

Watson, let me tell you: this adventure started like no other. Among my esteemed company, there was a lunatic who believed himself a skeletal artist! I must admit, I the party of which I was a member, this fellow’s strangeness misfooted me mos the thoroughly. I was keen to meet my other companions on the journey which would only become more perilous by the day.

[SherlockHolmes]

HEAL: SherlockHolmes

[SherlockHolmes]

I suggested to the insane chap that a good way to make friends would be to vote for me, the London’s finest private detective, to be saved.

[SherlockHolmes]

Further, Watson, and you may find this hard to believe: there was a talking tree on the expedition. Or perhaps it was the opium addling my mind, but I could swear to you, he was there...

[SherlockHolmes]

I had hoped that I might be able to discuss at length the latest chemical discoveries, being something of an amateur myself, with the more serious scientist in our little party. Instead, I found myself disconcerted by his need to excuse himself from the beginning of the adventure.

HURT: Chemist1422

[SherlockHolmes]

I am a skeleton with below average standards, and I am sure you will all meet those standards! So I'd like at the very least to spare 2 players by the end of day 4, and preferably spare 4.
Finding friends is so much easier than finding enemies!

I tend to be better at town hunting than scum hunting so I'm down with this as an overarching strategy.

I spotted immediately that there were some logical errors being espoused by my companions. They suggested it was simpler to focus not on detecting Moriarty’s henchman, but on finding those not working for him. However, what I deduced with my uncanny mind was that this was simply because generally there are only very few of Moriarty’s henchmen inflitrating any given group of people to further his nefarious ends. Therefore, at random one is likely to simply have a higher success rate at finding those who do not work for him, and this should only be considered a useful method to approach an adventure if one is able to consistently narrow things down to such an extent as to eliminate all of Moriarty’s good-for-nothing dogsbodies in most cases. If not, it is, dear Watson, a red herring.

[SherlockHolmes]

It was a most peculiar bunch we were adventure by with. There was a most mysterious gentleman with a fancy name; a white bengal tiger able to communicate through a series of paw gestures; and, strangest of the bunch, a Liverpudlian.

My initial impressions of the fancy named fellow were that he liked me, a sentiment that I returned. In fact, it was sufficient for me to go along with him a little:

HURT: hectic

The tiger seemed mostly distracted, and I decided that, in order as not to risk life and limb, to wait for it to have eaten and reached contentedness with what was going on before engaging it.

At this moment, a fay being entered our party, a little late. I realised that the opium was stronger than I’d anticipated, for this being appeared to have softly luminescent skin. It spoke, but in a strange tounge, and so shocked was I by its appearance that I gleaned nothing of value from its words.

[SherlockHolmes]

It was a most peculiar bunch we were adventuring with. There was a most mysterious gentleman with a fancy name; a white bengal tiger able to communicate through a series of paw gestures; and, strangest of the bunch, a Liverpudlian.

My initial impressions of the fancy named fellow were that he liked me, a sentiment that I returned. In fact, it was sufficient for me to go along with him a little:

HURT: hectic

The tiger seemed mostly distracted, and I decided that, in order as not to risk life and limb, to wait for it to have eaten and reached contentedness with what was going on before engaging it.

At this moment, a fay being entered our party, a little late. I realised that the opium was stronger than I’d anticipated, for this being appeared to have softly luminescent skin. It spoke, but in a strange tounge, and so shocked was I by its appearance that I gleaned nothing of value from its words.

Alas, Watson, I seem to have spilled ink over your page. Let me recount this part of the tale again, enunciating more precisely.

[SherlockHolmes]

I was correct, Watson: this mad man was dangerous!

[SherlockHolmes]

Dear Watson, even in the early days of this adventure, I felt an increasing discomfort with the madman amongst us: he acted in such a way as to suggest he believed that

I

was an agent of Moriarty’s, yet when explaining himself, he claimed that my actions were simply “weird” and not indicative of where my loyalties lay. I knew that it was a common move from Moriarty’s henchmen, taught by the Professor himself, to pursue dissent by going after behaviour seeming strange rather than doing meaningful searching for villains.

I also met one of the later members of the part to arrive, a strapping gentleman dressed in armour. He seemed to ask rather pointless questions that made me uneasy. Nevertheless, I responded to him that my concern about the chemist was quite legitimate. In fact I felt that if the madman were simply insane then this chap was the most likely to be working for Moriarty in his place.

I also found myself needing to explain simple physics to the fellow: that based on the words “temporal” meaning time, and “integrity” meaning wholeness or completeness, “temporal integrity” was clearly a phrase designed to refer to the orderly and unidirectional progression of events within time, where time is perceived as a river flowing only down to the ocean.

[SherlockHolmes]

I realised the mad fellow had possibly misunderstood my words, Watson. He had believed that I was suggesting that we should not attempt to secure ourselves by being sure of our comrades, when I was simply taking issue with the regular and erroneous self-perception that some people have that they are better at tracking who are not agents of Moriarty than hunting down those who are.

Perhaps the gentleman was more lucid than I previously believed...

[SherlockHolmes]

My dear Watson, I feel most deeply asleep for a prolonged period at the commencement of our journey together. When I awoke, we had a new member of the party with us. However, I had received an urgent missive and had other matters to attend to, so I profusely apologised to him for delaying my response and left to see to my business.

[SherlockHolmes]

HURT: Pine

[SherlockHolmes]

Watson, allow me quote more directly some of the exchanges that I had upon the adventure:

Alimdia, my fine fellow. I must admit, I find it hard to believe that a gentleman of such upstanding quality as yourself is struggling to comprehend well that which I have written. However, I find it more intriguing still that you choose to hound a question that is quite clearly meaningless. Why should it matter if I accompanied my the good gentleman JTheophrastus Bartholomew or not? This feels rather like an attempt to imitate the search for Moriarty’s minions rather than partaking of the real thing. I also dislike that your seeming focus on this allows you to avoid looking for Moriarty’s minions elsewhere. In fact:

HURT: Alimdia

Although the good gentleman Pine’s lack of presence here is a little disturbing, I have it on good recommendation that the chap prefers working for Moriarty than working against him. As such, I’m taking his limited engagement thus far to be relatively indicative of him being a good sort this game. That said, it is mildly concerning that his inactivity has continued since Nachomamma8’s presence has spiked upward, given that he professed a strong wish to play with him.

[SherlockHolmes]

Nachomamma8, sir. I must say, I do not think that a madman behaving madly is a good indication of where his loyalties lie. Therefore I do not think that this “gimmick” you speak of is a good way to judge his behaviour. That said, I am of the belief that he is mostly acting without an agenda. Suggesting that we only “spare” members of the party seems like the closest he’s been to having an agenda of any sort, and he has not vocally advocated for such. Further, were he an agent of Moriarty, I doubt anyone would feel confident enough that he were not (given his “gimmick”) to ensure his own “sparing”. Therefore he would be reliant on a hypothetical partner being “spared” to not lose the game automatically, and this seems to be against his own interests as an agent of Moriarty. Therefore, in conclusion, I am inclined to say that the madman does in fact work against the Professor and not with him.

[SherlockHolmes]

I am curious to hear the opinions of my fellow adventurers on the Chemist who is amongst us. I feel there is a decided lack of motivation in his interactions thus far. I would also like to kindly request that the good Nachomamma8 give more of his reasoning behind Sujimuchi being an agent of Moriarty if that is what his opinion is at this moment.

[SherlockHolmes]

Why are you voting Sherlock when you haven't read ant of his posts?

I quite clearly understand and read the relevant posts in regards to my accusations and his post 42 I'm referencing.
I wonder, do you understand my case?

Sherlock is voting or was voting with JT because JT healed him. He was explicit about this fact. Where do go from here to get the "Sherlock is scummy for his vote" conclusion?

I'm asking for a friend because I'm totally not voting with Amrun simply because Amrun said hi back.

This is, my dear Hectic and Alimdia, a quite astute and accurate summation of why I went along with the fine JTheophrastus Bartholomew esq. in his vote.

Furthermore, it was a period of time that I believe is referred to colloquially as “RVS”. The main purpose was, if one is to follow my votes before a tipping point, to simply create what I have heard referred to as “wagons” with the aim of generating content that is more readable to a detective minded to parse it for clues as to intentions.

I consider it a sign of significantly greater scuminess, and the best so far no less, to try and paint my actions as anything other than “NAI” when that is the assumption a reasonable and neutral observer. It is much more the impulse of an agent of Moriarty to try and make a mountain out of a molehill, and to create a villainous motive where none exists; indeed, it is necessary to an agent of Moriarty, for if not how then can they create the appearance of “scumhunting”?

My vote remains, although I am a little pressed with some of my other endeavours currently, and also I must attend to my letters. Therefore I may not “push my read” as you gentlepeople so finely put it, but I remain resolute on the point that Alimdia is the gentleman most likely to be working for nefarious purposes by a fair margin.

I also have some concerns about the prospect of sparing Hectic, namely because Nachomamma8 esq. has been dedicated to that read in a way that somewhat unnerves me. This is not to say that I do not think Hectic is town — I rather do. However, were he to be scum, I believe his highest “scum!equity” is with the esteemed Nachomamma8, and for that reason I strongly lean towards a “fight” action today. If the esteemed Nachomamma8, or whom I have heard many admiring tales, can identify one of Moriarty’s agents and put them to the sword, I would feel more comfortable in following his lead on the “sparing” of the local lunatic.

[SherlockHolmes]

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

My dearest Amrun, would you kindly do me the service of explaining in what manner you feel that Asriel is “off”?

I must admit, I consider them to be more likely a friend than a foe.

[SherlockHolmes]

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

[SherlockHolmes]

My warmest thanks, Amrun. I must admit, I now recall having read that post, but even the world’s greatest detective is sometimes prone to a small lapse of memory. However, I wondered if you might perhaps expand on what this “nervous twitchiness” is in Asriel’s posts, perhaps going so far as to bless us with citations for the same. I patiently await your response.

[SherlockHolmes]

dear everyone, my apologies for my absence

I smoked a significant amount of opium and have been comatose in my quarters

I still believe that sparing is not an optimal move for today and that a “fight” would be for the best

[SherlockHolmes]

I’ll be honest, doing this PR has been kind of exhausting and I’ve been avoiding this game somewhat because of it.

For the record, I’m not

that

interested in trying to percentage point maximise between sparing and fighting strategies as that just seems unproductive and focus there is focus not on finding and lynching scum. I also highly doubt that any advantage is more than marginal from choosing one specific end game over another, and which is marginally better is probably entirely negatable via day play plus scum knowing which strategy we’re thinking of going for allows them to play around it.

I think it’s much better to choose based on an organic unfolding of events, I.e. sparing if there is a very consensus townread, fighting if there is a very consensus scumread. However, I think on D1 it’s healthier to fight because, as mentioned previously, it allows to see where people were regarding a flipped alignment that was chosen with at least some town involved. This will be more informative and useful going forwards and solving the game than second guessing on if we spared scum and/or trying to make reads purely on a scum nk, which always has the potential to be wifom

[SherlockHolmes]

Incidentally, I’m not really townreading suji or alim but I think I may scumread their playstyles and this makes it harder for me to judge in both cases. I think this is somewhat moreso the case with suji.

I’m aware that this looks very political given my positioning; I don’t know if it helps you to know that I know it looks political, but there’s that.

[SherlockHolmes]

No I agree! I want to hurt Sujimichi. But deadline was approaching (like fast) and I didn’t have anything new to present on Sujimichi to convince anyone. I didn’t want to cause us to no action. Sparing Hectic isn’t the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be nothing which we were headed to rapidly (and still kinda are).

I agree with you on this and I’ll work with you on suji despite my reservations if it lets us avoid sparing

HURT: suji

HEAL: unvote

[SherlockHolmes]

Also, NB: I reserve the right to return to my gimmick once the gamestate is healthier and not shit

I think pine’s inactivity has been sitewide and is probably NAI for him

Amrun is being consciously town and I’m willing to roll with that as is for now because I like where she’s looking

[SherlockHolmes]

Honestly, I feel kind of unimpressed by nachomamma given his reputation. I feel like there’s been a certain amount of aiming but not really the town leading I hoped for/expected to see. I am somewhat uncomfortable that he entered advocating for fighting someone but later shifted to wanting to share hectic, and while I do think hectic is probably town I think his gimmick is a weak reason to be TRing him.

I’m having a feeling like I’ve said some of this before, but I’m not certain, and to get back into this game I sort of need to reiterate some of the points to myself

[SherlockHolmes]

Official playerlist:
Hectic
JTheophrastus Bartholomew
Asriel Dreemurr
Amrun
Chara
Nachomamma8
Billy Pilgrim
Chemist1422
SherlockHolmes
alimdia
Pine

Could this be updated please, popsofctown?

[SherlockHolmes]

Replacement history:
Hectic

JTheophrastus Bartholomew

Replica

Asriel Dreemurr

Farkran
Amrun
Chara

Nachomamma8

Alisae

Nachomamma8

Billy Pilgrim

Sujimichi
Chemist1422
SherlockHolmes
alimdia

Pine

Psyche

Nvm

[SherlockHolmes]

I’d actually quite like to lynch nachomamma, looking back at his ISO and his recent readslist, although I’m willing to listen to his explanation. That seems like a very safe readlist, for lack of a better word. Like, I wouldn’t necessarily have expected to see myself and two other lurkers in your desired D1 lynchpool because that’s a very lhf way of approaching the game, and I don’t really see why if you think you have your pool down to 3 then why would you want to spare more than lynch in that pool?

[SherlockHolmes]

I think someone asked me a while ago why I reached out to certain players: at the time, they were people I felt quite good about being town and wanted to work with them and bounce reads back and forth with. Right now, I think I’d most like to chat with amrun, when she’s next available. Chemist too, I still think he’s pretty hard town here

[SherlockHolmes]

I don’t particularly townread chara’s content, but I do think effort leans slightly +town and this is a game with only 2 scum so they can lean slightly town for now

So where are we

Something like

Town
Amrun
Chem

Townlean
Hectic
Chara

Nulltown
Farkran
Replica

Null
Psyche

Scumlean
Nacho
Suji

Scum
Alim

[SherlockHolmes]

I guess nacho could be in the middle there actually, between scumlean and scum

[SherlockHolmes]

His posts seem towny, but his presence/direction don’t

[SherlockHolmes]

Alim does probably need revisiting as an independent slot since I got to my read on him, but I’m not totally sure when I’ll have the chance to do that. So in the meantime he’s there

[SherlockHolmes]

I think you seem over-eager to spare, and also, to be clear, I don’t dislike your play style I just find it scummy. It’s almost excessively polite, which feels like you’re trying not to offend. This does seem consistent with your past games though, so I’m not convinced it’s AI, but I lean toward scumreading that.

You seem to have made some quite effort-y posts here which was very absent from your recent scumgame, but you also don’t seem to have done that in any games before at all, so I don’t think it’s that AI for you either (at least, not yet)

[SherlockHolmes]

What do you think of nacho, suji?

[SherlockHolmes]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

[SherlockHolmes]

HURT: nacho

[SherlockHolmes]

I suspect that sorting in (nacho, alim, psyche, replica) should yield all the scum

[SherlockHolmes]

I further think it’s unlikely that (nacho, replica) are SvS so if nacho flips scum then replica should be cleared and hectic should be reconsidered

[SherlockHolmes]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

[SherlockHolmes]

Like I just produced the entire content up to that point again in the last page and a half, and honestly what’s within it is probably more productive than anything else that was before too, and neither of you is talking to me about it or parts of it that interest you, nor are you talking to each other about it

[SherlockHolmes]

Spoiler: Chemist

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

Asriel's nervous about everything.

you're probably right, but I think if he were scum he'd be more nervous about being nervous

hectic, is that why you initially voted to fight Sherlock?

Mssrs. Nachomamma8, JTheophrastus, Chemist, and Hectic: could I entice you gentlemen with the prospect of lynching our companion Alimdia?

why these names out of the entire game?

I’m not 100% on my Asriel spare, never was, but he hasn’t done anything to make him strongly trend down

I haven’t been that around tbh but you’re probably the only person I would consider moving my spare to

@Rep
I switched to Asriel from Hectic because I wanted do be doing something new with my vote

Really I don’t remember having a reason but it was probably something like that

If you think scum are trying to lurk it’s probably better to go pacifist to force them to do stuff

Why is Hectic town to you, alim?

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

Asriel's ISO to me is like

town null null null null etc.

really the only thing is towny tone and him having nothing against him

This is all townposting, I think

He didn’t need to go out for asriel in the way he did, if he was defending a scumbuddy it’s an odd time to do so as there wasn’t any real pressure there at the time, but also he doesn’t double down on it — I think the strength of his read and his reasons are very reasonable

Also he’s been here, and I think a number of the questions he’s asked have been actively trying to advance the game instead of just lurk out and avoid producing. Chemist being meme-y or low content isn’t AI for him, but the level to which he’s engaged is and it’s +town

I also like him defending pine as lhf because I think that’s pretty bang on in terms of assessment

I don’t see why scum chem deliberately chooses to defend lynchable slots like asriel and pine and to put amrun/nacho (both of whom would be much harder to lynch) in his “likely scum here” pool

[SherlockHolmes]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Oh, and this. I'm very interested in this.

I mean I explicitly said that I’d rather not as it’s very much an angle shoot and it feels icky but I can’t ignore it now that I’ve seen it

[SherlockHolmes]

Suffice to say, if you prod around suji’s meta I imagine you’ll find what I mean

[SherlockHolmes]

I felt like alim’s push on me early was scummy because it reminded me of scum looking for something to push rather than trying to genuinely decide if the action was scum motivated or not

He actually does improve on another glance through his iso, and so I’m not set on him being definite scum

Some parts of his reads posts seemed like IIOA and he doesn’t seem that interested in following up on the things he says he’s interested in. If you’ll forgive me the egoism, he said he wanted to see what game of my question to (nacho, chem, jtheo etc) but didn’t follow up there or do anything with anyone who did answer (I can’t remember who it was rn). Moreover, I think there’s a general lack of direction to his posting or interest in figuring things out which is probably +scum

[SherlockHolmes]

It genuinely pains me that neither of you is engaging with the wealth of content that I just produced

I believe I answered your question regarding my stance on Nachomamma8. Would you like to discuss that further, or is there something else you would like to discuss?

I was more hoping for some commentary on what I’ve produced directed from you rather than me interrogating you on it

[SherlockHolmes]

That is to say: there is content where there was none. How has it changed your understanding of me and my play, or how has it influenced your view on the game or on other players?

And I’d like that to come from you instead of me aiming you at the bits I think are most relevant for a couple of reasons

One being that if you’re town which I think you very likely are, it will let you perhaps indicate to me what I might be looking at differently or missing

Also if scum then it forces you to take the initiative which I think is harder to do when scum and being asked to provide original thoughts on the game because you already know everything. This would be useful if the thing I’m reading you as town on is a false positive and you are actually scum. Call it insurance against your alignment or me doing my due diligence

[SherlockHolmes]

Lurkers being replaced can be highly beneficial, but I agree with you that fark is limited by seeing the game from his own perspective and not from that of others.

I think you’re town v town most likely

[SherlockHolmes]

Are you a guy or a girl, suji?

[SherlockHolmes]

I’m aware that’s a slightly random question, but I’d always thought you were a guy but saw in your recently completed micro that people were referring to you as a she

[SherlockHolmes]

I ask because I think it’s directly relevant to my reading of your tone, but I get it if you’d prefer not to answer

[SherlockHolmes]

Lynching lurkers as a compromise is one of the main ways in which towns lose games

Scum push one or two wagons up, town gets exhausted as the factions battle it out and then those wagons are potential mislynches down the line and a lurker has been got

An ISO being empty doesn’t mean the ISO is bad — the pine/pysche ISO isn’t bad, it’s just that there’s nothing there. If there were posts and there was still nothing there it might be bad, but as it stands it’s just... meh

People are notoriously bad at reading chemist because they think him lurking is NAI and fail to engage with what he does on its own terms. If you engage with chemist

as chemist

he’s very readable, and has produced solidly AI content even if there’s been a lot of memeing and not being serious and just being fun alongside it

It’s a matter of looking through the static to find the meaningful image, and that is possible from what he’s done thus far. I would be very surprised if chemist flipped scum this game

[SherlockHolmes]

I will probably out the reason for locktown!suji if you two aren’t able to see that your interaction is screaming town talking past each other rather than SvT

[SherlockHolmes]

But as mentioned, I’d prefer not to

[SherlockHolmes]

Honestly, I feel kind of unimpressed by nachomamma given his reputation. I feel like there’s been a certain amount of aiming but not really the town leading I hoped for/expected to see. I am somewhat uncomfortable that he entered advocating for fighting someone but later shifted to wanting to share hectic, and while I do think hectic is probably town I think his gimmick is a weak reason to be TRing him.

I’m having a feeling like I’ve said some of this before, but I’m not certain, and to get back into this game I sort of need to reiterate some of the points to myself

I think my behavior has been similar to Nacho’s on this point - why is it scummy for him but ok for me?

You’ve been here more I think, and I think you’ve been more responsive in what you’ve been posting.

Also, respectfully, I’ve never heard your towngame talked of in the same terms as I’ve heard nacho’s talked of, despite the fact that I think you are a strong town player. There’s also correspondingly the fact that I think of you as a stronger scum player than town player, and frankly I think you’d seem townier here if you actually were scum. I think your lack of concern for your optics is +town because I think you’d be aware of that but I’m not sure you’d be confident enough in this playerlist and in a gamestate this atrophied for people to pick up on you not seeming that town being town indicative for you

[SherlockHolmes]

Oh, actually I think suji is locktown but it’s for a very angleshooty reason I’d rather avoid

Do share.

I will share closer to deadline if there is a consensus that it should be outed

As I said, I mostly don’t want to because it’s icky

I think there’s some + to not outing it yet in that I think it’s quite clearing and scum knowing that I can put it forces them to either kill me before I do or for them to keep suji off limits as a mislynch option

On the flipside if it’s not clearing then it’s strong incentive for scum!suji to kill me ASAP and then claim this as a defence later on. So given that, it may be worth outing it D1 and checking that it is in fact clearing and not me seeing things strangely

It’s not a hard clear, for the record, it’s a perspective thing

[SherlockHolmes]

Also, to be clear amrun, me saying I think your scum game is stronger than your town game is not me putting down your town game: I’m saying I think your scum game is *very* strong while your town game is just *strong*

I also really didn’t mean to be rude on the reputation thing, I like you a lot, but it’s just that I’d heard of nacho before I ever played with him or saw him playing in a game and I only got to know you since you got back to site

[SherlockHolmes]

Who here is townreading nacho at this point? Simple show of hands. If it’s “almost no one” which is the impression I got from skimming back through the last few pages, can we get some more votes there please.

I am steadily more and more convinced of amrun v suji being TvT.

[SherlockHolmes]

I have to go to work now, but should be around more fully later today.

Amrun — I saw that you asked who I am, but I am declining to answer, sorry. I wanted to play on a secret alt to avoid the associations and expectations that normally relate to me when on my main, and may want to play more games on this alt in the future.

I am trying to avoid excessively making meta-based reads because I know that can be frustrating when you don’t know who the person claiming them is. However, some things (reputation, who I like) are things it seems somewhat pointlessly difficult to hide/disguise and I’m not /that/ concerned about my main being outed, I just don’t want to do it explicitly.

Hope you understand.

[SherlockHolmes]

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

nacho could be scum rn and his professed hectic read would

still

be broadly sound

There’s no planet on which Hectic/nacho is SvS. Agreed.

Strongly not agreed. The opposite of agreed.

[SherlockHolmes]

HURT: psyche

[SherlockHolmes]

For the record:

(1) nacho is also a significant part of why I joined this game, because I wanted to play with him first hand (we’ve been in a game together before but didn’t really get to “play” together) but that’s not enough reason for me to not lynch him if I think he’s scummy

However

(2) I missed the VLA, probably because he didn’t bold it or I’m just unobservant. The fact that the dip in activity was coincident with that lowers my concern about his activity, although I still do not think that sparing is anything other than terrible for D1 and really dislike that his last meaningful activity was pushing that especially when he earlier called it out as suboptimal

[SherlockHolmes]

Nacho hasn’t done anything scummy in my eyes. All the “cases” on him seem nebulous and some of them seem opportunistic.

I’m not so overly sure he’s town but I think lynching him because he has a high reputation and has had a V/LA in the middle of the phase making it difficult for him to engage is ridiculous.

He’s a townread but the fisticuffs is about the annoyance of lynching day 1 the best player in the game for shit reasons. I joined to play with him. Idk Undertale and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to play with Nacho.

town for me, but i don't see anything he's done as loserish.
in fact, i was a little paranoid when he first locked us as town.
but he's obviously very experienced so maybe he's just that good that he can instantly tell someone's town based on style of posting alone.
and loser!Nacho coming in to push through a SPARE on town day 1 seems like an odd strategy, dontcha think?
unless he thinks it gives him significant towncred but that doesn't really work without flips for SPAREs.
hell if i know.
welp, i see that you and my old pal Sujimichi have had a lot to talk about while i was gone.
i'll get to that tonight.

I agree and frankly, if he was going to fake a confident townread on someone to spare them and get them out of his hair, I would not have expected it to be you. Especially after arguing against sparing.

A better scum strat for that is to pick someone who is familiar and a threat to pocket/remove threat by sparing.

The problem with this is that it’s making an assumption about scumplay that I disagree with beyond a certain level, which is that one move is meaningfully more likely than another once a certain level of scumplay is reached.

The fact that it is suboptimal is exactly why a scum player of calibre might do that some of the time. I highly doubt that nacho (unless his scumgame is much weaker than his towngame, which idk) sees himself as limited in what options are available to scum!him. So approaching the question of “if he’s scum, would he do this suboptimal thing” is meaningless imo.

I don’t know if I explained that well, but I can try again if necessary

[SherlockHolmes]

I think I’m ready to put what I think was a suji townslip too

[SherlockHolmes]

Subject: Saga Mafia Threats to Hazel PT

Hey mastina! I think that I should keep my current role, if that is okay with you. This is my first time as Mafia, and being assured of death prior to Day 3 relieves some of the pressure for me.

Suji started this game after s/he started this one. I think that dropping the tone in that comment is entirely natural, and wasn’t planned out as a safeguard against that game ending first, which makes me strongly believe they had rolled town in this game before getting their scum PM there.

This is why I said it was angleshooty and I still think it’s kind of ick, but I would like us to move on from suji!scum discussion.

[SherlockHolmes]

So, unfortunately, I will be traveling from now until the 2nd of February. My activity will be a little more limited than I'd like and I'll be stuck phone posting, but I will still be a force of nature.

@suji

[SherlockHolmes]

Alim or psyche today, I think

[SherlockHolmes]

[float=]h[/float]Disagree w/ SH's reasoning (don't think the relationship between a play's optimality and scumminess is around 1:1 like he's suggesting) but in general am doubtful that scum optimizing their readlists to prioritize removing threats from the game is really a thing.

If anything scum optimise readlists to alllow them to be on mislynches or to create bad associatives

They have the factional NK for threats

[SherlockHolmes]

also thank god the roleplaying stopped

You have no idea how sad I am that it had to

[SherlockHolmes]

So, unfortunately, I will be traveling from now until the 2nd of February. My activity will be a little more limited than I'd like and I'll be stuck phone posting, but I will still be a force of nature.

Like, y’all aren’t even reading his posts, so how can I trust you to understand the gamestate? This is only the first and most clear time it’s mentioned. Anyone scumreading nacho without acknowledging this is automatically suspect.

Missing a post =/= not reading someone’s posts

[SherlockHolmes]

saying "this is my first time as mafia" while in other ongoing games is really skeevy for the record

I had this dilemma the first time I played as a newbie but I can’t remember what my solution was

[SherlockHolmes]

What the fuck happened while I was gone?

Suji why did you out?

[SherlockHolmes]

I’m assuming suji is not scum, if they are then I don’t want to hammer a spare if that’s where we’re at until we see if there’s a CC. I think it was almost uncertainty optimal to our and anyone pushing the predominantly sparing route is scummy.

I also think I know who replica’s main is based on their self-meta post and would encourage people to take them with a pinch of salt at least. However, I would very tentatively lean town there, I think.

[SherlockHolmes]

What the fuck happened while I was gone?

Suji why did you out?

I believe I have explained my rationale quite sufficiently.

Can you just recap or point to the most relevant bit because I’m going to sleep in all of two seconds.

[SherlockHolmes]

Okay, we spare suji if no CC. But this is a terrible plan because we get no new information whereas scum get a shitload, and now analysis tomorrow will have to be done through the WIFOMY visor that is NKA rather than looking at people’s stances on the wagons and pushes.

[SherlockHolmes]

I’m going to sleep now, I’ll be around to hammer the suji spare if needed.

[SherlockHolmes]

GG

WP to the scumteam, ty for killing me N1

[SherlockHolmes]

Also @hectic that was a really tough lylo, bad luck

[SherlockHolmes]

I maintain that town should always fight on D1 and probably on D2 as well

[SherlockHolmes]

I don’t understand why people fought so hard in favour of sparing when that was just going to leave things more confused for the remaining players as the game went on due to lack of info revealed under their control, and scumteam was able to capitalise on that to have excellent positioning into the endgame

[SherlockHolmes]

In a final post made with the thread locked, I want to discuss SherlockHolmes' conduct in this game.
This was part of my ruleset for this game:

-snip-

SherlockHolmes' post about Sujimichi's scum PT post was clearly SherlockHolmes perceiving that Sujimichi had violated the rules of Undertale S Open and the web site by discussing the ongoing game Undertale S Open, listing it by omission as one of the game in which he had rolled town. That makes him a mandatory reporter to report rulebreaking conduct to the moderator as soon as he has noticed it, which he did not do. This is intuitive in life in general, if your cousin has 50$, passes Go and collects 400$ instead of 200$, but lands on your hotel on Baltic, and you notice, it is intuitive to everyone that it is wrong to collect 450$ from your cousin because this has benefited you.

Mandatory reporting is pervasive in site culture, which SherlockHolmes on his main account is ostensibly a part of.

-snip-

Even when cheating is innocuous, mafia has a very nasty side effect with it that "observant of the rules" does not relate to either the town or scum wincon, so public violations or soft violations of the rules in pursuing the town wincon can powerfully confirm a player as town.

-snip-.

SH does not seem particularly malicious in his conduct, but it's outside the lines of what I find acceptable. He is WOTM'ed from future games of this series, unless he apologies and promises that the "feeling of angleshooting" coincides with contacting the moderator in the future (

I would have contacted him, if I didn't figure it was probably a metaphor for a very cute diction tell or something

).

Sujimichi never violated any rules, because he did/would have simply make posts using the "ongoing games don't exist" style. This concept seemed more foreign to players in the thread the less they knew Sujimichi's personality, and the less they themselves multitable. I posted posts in that style about three times in scum PTs last year.

Just spotted this.

I’d like to touch on one or two things here:

(1) if sujimuchi did not break any rules, which is acknowledged, then I struggle to see how I did. To be clear, suji technically posted in a way that was consistent with the denial that his post was relevant to his alignment in any specific game. The interpretation of that post as being a genuine tone slip was exactly that: a perception, that was liable to being wrong. I am sure there have been cannier players who have used similar means to be falsely townfirmed via making similar posts as scum in more than one game. Had I believed that he had revealed his alignment beyond any doubt then I would see that as confirming his role in this game beyond any doubt and would have reported that to the moderator.

(2) I am unsure what the optimal thing to do is in this situation given the conflict between a general sense of “angleshooty” and the requirement to play to wincon. As part of playing to my wincon, I was metadiving to try to increase my ability to read other players, including looking at completed games. I found something that I thought was indicative of town!suji, and after seeing that I could not change my perception back to not seeing it. To not use that information in removing someone from my PoE seems to go directly against the idea of playing to my wincon; likewise, to not share that would be playing against wincon because it would allow for other players to incorrectly focus their energies on a townslot instead of looking for scum. To use an analogy from poker as oppsoed to monopoly, if one is playing for money and your opponent flashes their cards and you see, should you fold? I do not believe that you should, as it is down to your opponent to safeguard their cards from being seen accidentally. While physically removing their cards from them by force or stealth would be cheating, paying attention and using that information is a part of the game imo. This tied back to my belief that if what suji did was not a violation (and I don’t believe it was) then using that unconfirmed information should not be perceived as misconduct either. If angleshooting is not permitted, that should be made expressly clear, and there is a reason why a semantic distinction is made between “angleshooting” and “cheating”.

(3) On a purely personal level, I am sad that popsofctown chose not to message me privately about this either on this account or on my main, to discuss what she views as poor conduct on my part before posting here in what I must say feels rather akin to a public shaming. I am particularly saddened because I thought that popsofctown and I had at least a decent relationship on my main account and so I would have expected her to reach out, despite our occasional moments of friction in the past. I’m also a little hurt that she described me as only being “ostensibly” a part of site culture on my main given my level of presence on the site. I have bolded a part of the original post that I do not understand.

Overall, I am sorry that popsofctown believes that my play crossed the line into being unacceptable this game. I especially apologise if she believes I compromised the integrity of her game through my actions. And if I should wish to play another game of this series, I agree to contact her should I get a “feeling of angleshootyness”.

[SherlockHolmes]

I’d also like to note that I’m very happy to move to discussing this via PMs if you would like to do so pops, but I wanted to explain my actions to everyone else in the game, especially as I did not think I was doing anything wrong at the time of revealing the perspective slip and seeing your post was a surprise to me.

If you feel any discussion is better held publicly, that is of course fine too.

[SherlockHolmes]

Not completely unknown

(Prism =\= me)

Holmes as well, I wasn't in this game, to be clear

Hoo boy, sorry everyone, lots of altslips from me there

[SherlockHolmes]

I was doing so well too