Micro 916: Medical Meme Mafia (Game Over!)

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Amrun

Hi Amrun!

I meant to read old runs of this setup and only got through one of them, but what are you all's thoughts on claiming targets in advance

[GuiltyLion]

Did you make that decision before or after receiving your role PM?

before

What troubles me is him asking for our opinion on claiming targets in advance, rather than giving his own. Given you read HALF a game through, I'd have thought you'd have some opinions of your own, right? I do love your fur though, so I hope we can still be acquainted.

I have some thoughts but I didn't want to just lead with it, wanted to see if people had their own to share. My gut tells me it'd be significantly useful to know who targeted who ahead of time so we know what the dead did - it restricts scums fakeclaiming space - and there's not as much way scum could manipulate it tonight since they don't have any information about which doctor is which either. however, I can see how later game it may let scum deduce which doctor is which before the town can. so I'm kinda torn, my vote is maybe on advance claiming but I still want to survey the past games to see how that either worked out or backfired

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i think both were pretty obviously jokes

idk that your jake vote was obviously a joke, I'm not sure it was 'serious' but it seemed like a normal push?

i was talking about both hectic votes because i kind of voted hectic twice?

my jake votes kinda serious tho

But why was it serious?

because your jokes felt forced/overly formal?

Is that good evidence for me being scum, or "look at the trees" evidence?

I don't like this question, asking whether there's "good evidence" is trying to lawyer against a scumread on him instead of sorting emps in return or helping emps resolve concerns about his play.

VOTE: Jake

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@GL, that's not how I read that return question from Jake tho. I kinda liked it?

I'm prob didn't explain it well cause I'm kinda tired but I def don't like it, there's never going to be "good" evidence for someone being scum in early D1 and people just vote what feels kinda scummy. Jake trying to argue with it in the way that he did doesn't feel like it's meant to do anything useful, rather it's just kinda defensive and the mindset of "don't push without good evidence" discourages further content being generated.

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If there is no good evidence, then why would you push for me being scum?

what do you suggest we do instead to try to sort people, especially in the early game?

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My thoughts on 116 are I don't know how it would make sense to talk about who we might target to protect if we haven't also talked about scumreads or who we think is even potentially scum - unless we wanted to do some kind of system like "everybody target the person below you in the playerlist"

I also thought it was kinda off that Jake wanted to talk about protection strategies once he started getting votes, but not in his first few posts after I openly invited people to talk about it

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yeah scum CCing the Nurse would be a win for town, however I feel Nurse should pretend to be a doctor today and claim on D2 instead of D1

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I like Ico and emps for town.

I don't especially love my Jake vote anymore but I don't currently have a better place to move it to

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more specifically I'm thinking there's probably at least one scum in the {Jake/George/Obvious Scum/Non Imh} bloc that I don't feel has seriously tried to solve or towntell at all yet, but I don't have things that stand out that I want to ask them about

and then either of Amrun/Hectic I'm not townreading yet because they strike me as competent players who could have faked their level of play so far, but I don't think either is scummy either

so I'm kinda at a loss. Hectic - do you think Jake refusing to give thoughts on these things moves the needle on his alignment?

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I think the most interesting thing recently, was the jake wagon. Do you think there was scum on it?

I mean that's kind of the main thing that's happened IMO. You have side conversation between Amrun/ObvScum but wagons speak to me much louder than posts.

I'm kinda suspicious of your question here because:

a) we don't have a resolution of the Jake wagon and I'm not especially townreading Jake, so it's hard for me to make any kind of statement about likelihood of scum on it when I'm not all that sure about his alignment to begin with

b) I already gave some reads? I expressed ambivalence about my current vote, stated a townread on emps, said that Hectic's play isn't outside of scumrange, and said your slot hasn't done anything to try to look town. So to me this feels like enough information to take some guesses about how I might feel about the wagon - I wish you were asking about more specifics here, instead of a vague boilerplate conversation starter.

I personally unvoted because I feel like it's way too unsafe to leave someone like that, when scum could just lolhammer. Even SAYING "lolhammers are scumtells" doesn't mean that person will get lynched the day. The L-1 was accidental, but his reaction was very interesting. I can't tell if Scum or Town would react like that.

I think concern about a quickhammer is overblown. a wagon at L-1 is a game state that is more likely to generate information and much more uncomfortable for scum than a defused L-2 wagon, whether they are being wagoned, on the wagon, or off the wagon.

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Hectic - do you think Jake refusing to give thoughts on these things moves the needle on his alignment?

I did meta-check him yesterday, and yeah, his play here does strike me as weird. Look here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11412103
There's a lot of early pushing for reads, and open thoughts/solving.

But him continuing to give no thoughts in his last couple of posts after knowing I've caught onto that is interesting - not sure yet if he's just taking a different approach this game or is doubling down as scum.

I searched his posts the other day to see if he had used the "do you have ~evidence~" phrasing (which is what pinged me) as town and I did find one game with loosely similar examples/mentality:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11379201
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11381821
so, I'm not convinced that my first point against him was good. and I had kinda gotten faint townvibes from him doubling down on refusing to comment when he doesn't have thoughts.

That said I also agree with you that his play is different in that game that you linked, but I'm not sure that I see it as particularly scum-serving in a way that makes me think it's indicative.

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I agree with Amrun's posts on page 10
VOTE: GeorgeBailey

George last time we played you were able to turn on the obvtown when you needed to, I haven't seen that yet this game.

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as an aside here is my contribution to all the Hectic/puns discussion

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Jake do you have anything useful to say about your thoughts on George? I just noticed here that you implied that you think he's town

@MrPunGuyManSir

I'm suggesting that Since George didn't announce their L-1 vote, it paves the way for a scum claiming a pressure vote on me, which would be a very easy thing to pull off because "well no one CLAIMED L-1 on Jake"

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my English teacher in tenth grade taught me that "interesting" is one of the most meaningless words in writing.

What do the "quickie L-1s" tell you about the game state or the alignments of players involved with the wagons?

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look so I agree Jake's reasoning is bad and/or often unexplained but I kinda get the sense he genuinely believes in it? like I'm not sure that he makes posts like 296 as scum.

and then a post like Hectic's 301 saying he "just seems to be focusing on all the wrong things in the questions he asks" pings me as a phrase scum may say when they get an excuse to vote/lynch somebody for being

illogical

rather than being scummy.

idk I want more content from Bailey slot and it's entirely possible I'm overthinking and Jake is just bad scum, but I'm not interested in flipping him just yet. I do think a town!GB would make Jake's slot look a lot worse (and subsequently, Hectic look better) - but if GB is scum then I'd be somewhat confident in town!Jake

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Maybe you should hammer George, this might be your only chance to not be lynched today, Jake.

this is just a weird thing to say IMO

if Hectic thinks Jake is scum, why is he coaching him to hammer another slot?
if Hectic thinks George is scum, why is he feeling better about flipping Jake first?

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idk Hectic hasn't really been registering on my towndar this entire game, other than the one question he asked to Non Imh about 'claiming'. he's giving me some serious "scummy but charismatic and thus able to fool most people" vibes and I'm not sure what he can do to ease my paranoia at the moment. he's fine to leave alive for now but I don't think I would trust him in endgame

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and this might be venturing into 'confbias tunnel / reachiness' land but there's a looottt of interaction with George in his ISO that hasn't actually amounted to much pressure on George from him. He even defended him to Amrun in 269

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Alright, Nurse should claim and we should claim targets. I targeted Amrun

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once we get all the claims, we can try using some formal logic reasoning to narrow down the scope of potential docs and perhaps scum targets. it'll be a bit of work but I'm happy to look at it in detail at some point this week when I have time

I'm still pretty sure George is scum but let's be rigorous about this today

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wait so literally nobody is claiming Nurse rn?

I feel Nurse should claim it so they can be conftown and narrow the lynchpool, and help further resolve night actions

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Is it possible to mechanically solve who scum is from this?
Then wouldn't this make GL scum?

but gl is also the guy im locktowning rn soooooo

so scum no-killed?

I don't think it will be possible to mechanically solve who is scum, but I think best case scenario we might be able to confirm a town or two by PoE them being the only possible [x] doctor, since we know we have one of each. For example, if we assume Amrun stuck to the plan and targeted Hectic (an assumption we also have to be careful about since she never confirmed it in thread), then she is already ruled out as the regular Doctor or the Paranoid Doctor.

I don't have time yet and I kind of want Nurse to claim to make things a lot easier, but the idea is you start from "assume scum targeted [player 1]", then try to deduce which roles of doctor each player could be from there, and which claims wouldn't fit. It'll take some time but I definitely plan on giving it a go, probably tonight or tomorrow. It might wind up being a mostly pointless exercise, but I definitely want to see if we can find any liars or conftowns

[GuiltyLion]

also keep in mind that since scum already know exactly who they targeted, they have a headstart on this information and can likely figure out more than we'll be able to since they won't have to operate in worlds like "if scum targeted [this other player], then these are the roles"

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i actually think non is a better lynch today tbh

emps can you explain this

bc from where I'm sitting, George has been scummy all game, was the counter wagon to confirmed town mislynch, and justified his vote on the counterwagon town mislynch in a really scummy manner

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sorry for the prod - I will try to read and give thoughts either on my lunch break or after work today, so 3-8 hours from now. I'm town, so unless it's a Karnage/emps team there shouldn't be any quick hammers, but I'd appreciate no more votes until I can properly give thoughts

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I already claimed - I targeted Amrun last night. Not the Nurse

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alright I'm caught up, but I'm about to do a bunch more

my quick preliminary thoughts so far are:
1) I still generally think George is scum and I'm not sure why we're looking at Obv/Icon first over George
2) I messaged Datisi a few days ago asking whether the Nurse would flip as Doc if they died N1 and their answer was Nurse always flips as Nurse. so somebody is 100% lying about being a doctor and I'd really like them to claim explicitly in case that gives us useful night action info or in case we're barking up the wrong tree

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okay so actually as I'm sitting down and thinking about this more my reads are kinda all in flux

questions I'm thinking about - if George isn't scum, then scum might be just waiting for me to force the issue and then they can tag along later when it's deadline and they won't fall under scrutiny. I've tossed out George's name as a suspect several times now and nobody is biting at that, which makes me think George might be town and designated lynchbait

I'm also not sure I buy that emps townreads me to this degree? like I don't think I've been super especially over the top townie so far this game

I definitely don't think Obv/Karnage are a team. and I don't really think Ico is scum.

so that leaves me with:
emps/Obv could be a team
George/Obv or George/Karnage could be teams I guess

[GuiltyLion]

1) I still generally think George is scum and I'm not sure why we're looking at Obv/Icon first over George

Why are you so sure george is scum?

what makes you say I'm "sure"? I said "generally" in that post you quoted

[GuiltyLion]

the thing is George hasn't town told at all and I've seen him towntell in the last game we played together. I also really disliked the way he justified his vote onto Jake. however more and more he's kinda feeling like lynchbait in terms of how this game state is behaving, it's weird to me that nobody else is really vibing with my scumread there

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what about a Karnage/emps team, could that fit

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I'm not making a case yet chill

I'm trying to figure out who's working together and what scum agenda every player's votes and pushes could be serving right now

you're kinda my guess at Nurse so I didn't think you were scum but associatives between Obv don't really make him scum with a lot of people I think. I'm starting to think emps is a decent bet for a deep wolf

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just a scum getting mostly townread by most players, someone not really in the thread consensus lynchpool

that's how I use it at least

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I've tossed out George's name as a suspect several times now and nobody is biting at that, which makes me think George might be town and designated lynchbait

like you've said it but I don't really feel like you've sold it that hard? idk

yeah, I guess this is fair. I was thinking if he was town and a mislynch then scum should be at least throwing a token like, 'I could see George scum too' type of sentiment out there to give themselves some options - but then when I wrote that out I realized that should actually maybe be evidence of George being scum and the people not interested are perhaps more likely town

2) I messaged Datisi a few days ago asking whether the Nurse would flip as Doc if they died N1 and their answer was Nurse always flips as Nurse. so somebody is 100% lying about being a doctor and I'd really like them to claim explicitly in case that gives us useful night action info or in case we're barking up the wrong tree

j/w but why did you think to ask this?

everyone had gone around claiming actions and nobody claimed Nurse. I wanted to know whether we'd know if the Nurse died because I'm still expecting one to claim if they're alive today - also wanted to know if I should worry about scum gambling and fake claiming it safely

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It is less than 3 days to deadline and we still do not have a Nurse claim. Please claim for the love of god if you are the Nurse, I feel like I've been blocked from being able to dedicate myself to game-solving because we have a conftown who still hasn't claimed it yet and any effort prior to that might need to be totally re-evaluated on a Nurse claim. I can only assume it's one of Chemist slot / Karnage slot

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I unvoted you so you could obvtown and solve

and you took it as an invitation to zzz

i'm really not interested in shit like this

ur literally voting me because i didn't read the game because concussion and sent in a random night action after i got prodded to do so

then u unvote me and give me LESS then 24 hours to do smt?

fuck off

emps - what makes you able to see scum!icon, and why are you less confident on karnage?

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whoops, didn't mean to quote that. I think it's a pretty townie post from ICO but decided not to focus on it and instead ask a more broad question

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UNVOTE:

My GL town read was built on the fact I thought HE was actually the nurse

what made you think I was the nurse?

regardless, I am not sure Karnage does/thinks to say this as scum

I'm operating under a Chemist/Emps team prediction right now.

and Obv being the Nurse makes sense why everyone was assuming I was a vig

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I targeted emps, so I believe I'm definitely the Quack Doctor

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I don't know who is scum between Ico/Karnage, my gut first take is Ico but I'll need to reread with conftown!emps in mind, and when I do I'll share the stuff I'm looking at.

FMPOV this game is a lockwin as long as we don't lynch me, because if we do hit town I can target the other person tonight, but I recognize if there's concern about my slot then that is not necessarily super reassuring/convincing so I wanna try to figure out who is scum today regardless

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I guess I shoulda said "GL may do as he pleases but don't shoot emps" LOLOL

rly tho he was obvtown

I didn't like his associatives with George slot and I didn't trust the degree to which he was townreading me

whoops

[GuiltyLion]

intend to hammer

Ico - intent'd on George here, but hadn't mentioned him at all previously as far as I can tell. also didn't post again on D1 after this, but had already given V/LA due to a concussion so I don't really want to read anything into that.

why is icon null?

Why otherwise? They haven't really done anything townie/scummy imo. I assume there'll be more from them over the weekend, so it's currently waiting to be sorted.

They haven't really done anything townie

why is this null to you in this gamestate?

Er, should it be guilty until proven innocent? I mean they said they had a concussion and would post more later.

Explain the point of either one of his votes or the point of his intent

both votes were also pre-concussion

First vote was an RVS, and second vote was pressure on a low-activity slot.

why does George so openly go into a defense of Ico's play here... would he be motivated to do this with a townie? Considering Ico wasn't under much pressure, it's not really a potential white-knight situation

Ico, why didn't you follow the plan last night?

Anyways, my scum pick right now is Icon.

VOTE: Iconeum

I think you missed your proposed target on purpose so there would be more ambiguity about your role, which is already huge for most people right now.

is this distancing? :thinking_face:

Anyways, my scum pick right now is Icon.VOTE: IconeumI think you missed your proposed target on purpose so there would be more ambiguity about your role, which is already huge for most people right now.

How does me claiming what I claimed help a scum agenda according to you?

this post came kinda late, after Ico had already responded to a bunch of other sequentially later posts, including another vote on Ico from Obv. potentially Ico wanted to distance back and forgot until later in their catchups/posts.

overall these interactions are definitely potential buddy-buddy, but I'm not seeing anything I'd call damning. looking through Non Imh/Karnage next

[GuiltyLion]

(emps/hec/lion)townblock for me rn
(amrun/icon/obum)null
(jake,george)scum, maybe

VOTE: george

this is a good vote given the game state. Jake wagon was already promising and Non Imh goes on currently L-4 George instead.

UNVOTE:

however then he negates any potential solid towncred from this by unvoting once Jake/George wagons are tied. Also declares a townread on Jake, so why not keep his vote on George?? :thinking_face:

What's your full reads list?

obvscum > emps > george > ico = GL

thats the order I'd lynch in

why such a townread on George here... I never understood the George townreads at any point this game

Can you expand on where you see town in george, ico, and GL?

george is likely to be town via POE. I don't see scum Ico lying about not following the plan. GL is a gut read which I'd rather not get into atm.

bruh.
but then again, is scum truly not afraid to town clear their buddy by "POE" here? trying to go all in on a D2 winning mislynch?

1) I still generally think George is scum and I'm not sure why we're looking at Obv/Icon first over George

Why are you so sure george is scum?

also tbh I'm ok just lynching chemist and not forcing him to catchup only to die

I'm starting to come around to this idea

@Karnage - how did you evolve from 593 and 600 to here?

[GuiltyLion]

neither of these associatives help me as much as I would have liked them to

the choice here is whether:
a) scum!Karnage poked around at different mislynch options in emps/ObvScum before resigning himself to bus towards end of D2 after Obv's nurse claim, made sure to tell me to target emps to keep himself alive (710)
b) scum!Ico decided to distance/bus with George early d2 and stick with it through the day

honestly writing it out, Karnage's play on D2 makes a tiny bit more sense to me for scum in a bastard game like this, where they might hope for an outright win through two mislynches + NKs from town vigs. but at the same time, I can see a world where Karnage's play looks worse on the surface because he was genuinely trying to solve whereas Ico just coasted on a bus-each-other-and-see-what-happens D2 plan.

Obv, what are you thinking here?

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one point I want to put in favor of town!Karnage was him speculating about me as Nurse - which is clear throughout his ISO reading it again. but then again, scum is probably also trying to figure out who the Nurse is, so I'm worried maybe I shouldn't count that for too much.

[GuiltyLion]

Town

GuiltyLion
Emps, Hectic

Iconeum,

Amrun

.
Non Ihm,

ObviousScum
Jake The Wolfie

Scum

bleh

I want to say it's fractionally more likely scum puts his partner in a low tier than a true-neutral tier. but I'm not sure I should put like a ton of stock into that either.

[GuiltyLion]

I agree it's weird that I'm alive since no doc should have been targeting me due to jailkeep nurse, which would make me a guaranteed kill

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dis is true

so lynch karnage
gl vigs ico
ico 'jks' gl?

i no action?

I'm on board with this, and I agree Ico trying to consider the scum!Ico world and forgetting that I'd kill him looks like a townslip

I'm not 100% sure Ico is conf JK doc in the world where I'm scum but I just woke up + I'm actually town so I think this just wins

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Karnage

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I feel like all the major decisions in this game happened while I was asleep lol

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The memes were great and the game was smooth, thank you so much for hosting Datisi!!!

Karnage you did sound very town by tone but just ran out of options on D2 and D3 I think. The night play went towns way. I actually thought Hectic may have been weak doc after d2 but totally forgot about that on d3 hahah.

I kept intending to sit down and really try to do some mech PoE but every time I started I would get bogged down in the number of possibilities and I'd get lazy and give up

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Also I'm sorry for killing you emps and Amrun . I had more kills than the mafia lol

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Hahaha yeah I felt in my gut that targeting Amrun was gonna be negative utility