Newbie 1982 | Cellular Automata | Over

[volxen]

Imagine

not

having 10 town reads rn.

I feel that out of you 3 who voted me I think your the most Town and Bugs is the most Scum.
Who out of the people who voted me do you think is scum?
TBH I’m not entirely sure myself.

Why do you find George the most towny out of the three people that were on your wagon (George, Bugs, Luca)? You previously said that you thought that George had the most believable reasons for scumreading you (141), and his reasons for scumreading you are centered around him not liking how you responded to your wagon because he thought that you were overly defensive (86, 151). Whereas Luca and Bugs mainly voted you over your claim. You claimed Mason in a semi-open newbie game. As Luca already pointed out, it’s highly questionable that mason!you would make that claim that early on (even jokingly) given that it… doesn’t really benefit mason!you to do so (if anything it would benefit you more if you were a VT trying to bait the nightkill via WIFOM). I think it’s natural for people to be suspicious of an SE claiming mason that early on, so I’m not seeing why George saying that you were overly defensive in how you responded to your wagon is a better or more believable reason to be scumreading you.

Also, consider the setup. If you are town and the setup is something from column A or column C, then scum has to consider the possibility that you are actually a mason since scum only knows what column the setup is but not which row. In that scenario I think that it’s highly unlikely that both scum would be bold enough to jump on you (meaning Luca and Bugs) in response to your mason claim, as you could always confirm yourself via your mason buddy, and they would potentially look bad for jumping on you back-to-back. Even in the scenario where you are town and the setup is something from column B and scum thus knows that you aren’t really a mason, I still think that it’s unlikely that both scum would jump on you back-to-back for the exact same reason (your mason claim).

With respect to your wagon I think that is highly indicative of at least one of {Luca, Bugs} being town. I think that it’s natural for town to be suspicious of your claim, and if you are town I think that scum would be cautious of how they play around your slot in response to your mason claim, even if they knew for a fact that you weren’t really a mason (i.e. if the setup is something from column B). From your wagon I’m townreading Luca in particular based on his overall play, and the fact that a lot of the points that he brought up with respect to your slot/claim are points that I would have brought up myself if I had been in the game at the time. What are your thoughts on Luca? You’ve mainly focused on George and Bugs from your wagon.

[volxen]

UNVOTE:

[volxen]

You said that mason!tse would be highly questionable if they claimed mason early on... what if, wait for it, they're not mason and it was a joke? :O

I'm accounting for that possibility. I think that TSE is either VT or scum. If he is VT then I could see him doing what he did if he was trying to bait the nightkill with the mason claim, whereas I don't see any reason why he would do that if he was mason (or another PR for that matter) since he would want to avoid getting nightkilled in that case.

[volxen]

Yikes is not AI
It's a literal meme claim

Stop shading

It's only a prank bro
Yeah well it was detrimental to town which is kinda a bad meme and the way tse has handled is p wack

I no longer want this slot alive over George

/vote Bugspray

Why do you think this post in particular from Bugs is bad? You said before that you thought it was bad how Bugs jumped onto TSE's wagon over his "meme claim", but when Bugs started to reconsider his read on TSE and switched his vote to Chazary you called that bad as well. Given how much heat TSE has already taken, if Bugs is scum and TSE is town I don't think that Bugs would fake reconsidering his read on TSE and switch his vote to Chazary and risk killing the momentum that had already built up against TSE. At the time that Bugs switched his vote to Chazary he had already been tunneling/voting TSE for days over his mason claim, and TSE was being scumread by several players -- I don't think that it makes sense for scum!Bugs to suddenly do a 180, say that TSE was starting to look more towny, and switch over to Chazary's wagon at the time that he did.

I think the combination of scum!Bugs and town!TSE is unlikely. Aside from the point that I made above, Bugs didn't show any hesitation in jumping on TSE in response to his mason claim, and I think that scum would show more caution in how they respond to that. Meaning that if Bugs is scum and TSE is town I think that Bugs either wouldn't have voted TSE over the mason claim in the first place, or if he was getting cold feet about wagoning someone who could actually be mason from his POV then I think that he would have found a reason to get off of TSE's wagon much earlier than he did.

[volxen]

@TSE, in case you missed this:

Why do you find George the most towny out of the three people that were on your wagon (George, Bugs, Luca)?

What are your thoughts on Luca? You’ve mainly focused on George and Bugs from your wagon.

[volxen]

Seems like trying to pocket me by extending various pointless conversations to build rapport

The former for putting effort into answering the RVS questions

Gimme a break here, the game just started and I was getting antsy to post. Not a lot I could have worked with. Plus I had 4 hours till my next lecture.

Anyways,

How confident is your scum read on me?
@Bugs @GB @Luca

SL. The way you handled your wagon seemed overly defensive, just for getting to L-2.

Like,

Honestly, if your all town scum should just quick hammer me for lols so the host can get a scummy for the game with the quickest Day 1 lynch.
Or has that already been beat?

But it's not very confident right now. The only thing that's throwing me off, is that, if there aren't scum on your wagon right now, wouldn't it be a very opportune time to bring it to L-1? Or, who's his scum partner pushing a counter-wagon?

Ok, so first off. Sorry for absence. (Just got a new job and I bit off more than I could chew with these games. That's all on me, and i'm trying here.)

Second, the TSE wagon is stagnant, I haven't been a fan of TSE's recent response to his wagon (i'll get more into that tonight) But I think there should be a little mix-up. Chazary has been a bit under the radar.

VOTE: Chazary

I understand scumreading TSE for the Mason claim, (in a noob game, always follow poe's law), but I don't see many other reason to scumread him right now. And the way he reacted to it, didn't seem opportunistic. JacksonVirgo obviously knows him and said that's his style. (Oh god the Town Of Salem Forums look really bad though). TSE is still a scumlean but that's not a hard scumclaim.

Did anyone else notice that Jackson is simultaneously tactically distancing themselves from AND emotionally buddying with TSE? This is calculated behavior and I'm curious about the motivation behind it.

Jack and TSE do have good scum equity together. Or they could just be good friends that find it hard to distance during games.

@GB who’s your biggest scum read? Is it still me?
@Bugs @Luca Other then Myself, who else do you scum read?

@TSE you're still my strongest but that's not saying a lot. Especially when we have 3 unreadable slots.

The way that you’ve played around TSE’s slot doesn’t make sense given what you have said about him. You voted for him during RVS and kept your vote on him for a few days, and you’ve been consistent about the fact that you’ve been scumreading him because you thought that his response to his L-2 wagon was overly defensive. So why did you want to switch gears and join Chazary’s wagon, given that you never dropped your scumread of TSE? All you really said about Chazary was that he was under the radar, but you never questioned him or tried to engage with him, and you haven’t reacted to anything Chazary has said since you parked your vote on him. And when TSE asked you if he was still your biggest scumread, you reaffirmed that he is – so why would you want to have your vote on Chazary rather than on your biggest scumread? I think that it’s scummy how you called TSE’s wagon stagnant when that wasn’t really the case, used that as part of your justification for switching your vote to a lesser scumread (Chazary), and then didn’t even attempt to engage with Chazary in a way that would help you sort his alignment after you voted for him.

You’ve since stated (256) that you now might be less confident on TSE being scum over meta reasons, but that still doesn’t explain how you’ve played around TSE’s slot or why you called him your strongest scumread while simultaneously showing no interest in voting/pressuring him.

Are you still scumreading Chazary, and if so why?

[volxen]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[volxen]

You said that mason!tse would be highly questionable if they claimed mason early on... what if, wait for it, they're not mason and it was a joke? :O

I'm accounting for that possibility. I think that TSE is either VT or scum. If he is VT then I could see him doing what he did if he was trying to bait the nightkill with the mason claim, whereas I don't see any reason why he would do that if he was mason (or another PR for that matter) since he would want to avoid getting nightkilled in that case.

No, they could have claimed mason as a town PR role BECAUSE IT WAS A

JOKE

because we're practically masons every game we play with each other.

Even so, I don't think that TSE would claim mason, even jokingly, as any type of PR in a newbie game. If he's town then he is a VT. Putting that kind of WIFOM out there isn't worth the risk of getting nightkilled if you are a PR.

[volxen]

He isn't a fan of TSE's response, but decides it isn't worth pursuing because the wagon is stagnant? Since when has a stagnant wagon been a reason not to pursue a scumread?

A stagnant wagon can mean one of two things: 1. It's a scum-driven wagon that's only gaining traction/being pushed by scum, or 2. We're hitting Scum and their partner is pushing a counter-wagon.

I don't scumread Chaz, I actually nullread them before. Which is why my vote stayed on him for pressure.

'Oh, maybe Luca/Bugs are scum driving this wagon, let me vote Chaz instead'

That isn't my point.

I did it for a few reasons. I wanted to see if Chaz would become the counter wagon to TSE. And because I believe Chaz's interactions with Chuck weren't sufficient for a TR. He was null at the time. I think he's TL now.

And Chaz didn't really become the counter-wagon since no one was really pushing it.

It's misleading to call it a "stagnant" wagon that wasn't going anywhere though. TSE was at L-2 before you unvoted, and other people who weren't voting for TSE were scumreading/scumleaning him at the time (e.g. Chaz), but no one wanted to put TSE up to L-1 that early on in the game. That's indicative of an unwillingness to put him within quickhammer range, not of a stalling wagon that was losing traction. It still doesn't make sense to me why you wanted to reduce the pressure on your strongest scumread at the time (TSE) and risk killing the momentum of that wagon in favor of seeing if your nullread (Chaz) would end up being a counter-wagon.

You're also saying here that TSE's "stagnant" wagon means one of two things, but you don't seem to believe that either of those two things are actually true given that 1) you aren’t scumreading either of Luca or Bugs (the other people who were with you on TSE's original wagon) and 2) you said that you voted for Chaz to see if he would end up being a counter wagon to TSE, and Chaz was voted by a few other people (Chuck/Alora and Bugs) but you don't scumread any of the people who were voting for Chaz, and you even said yourself that Chaz’s wagon wasn’t really a direct counter-wagon to TSE’s wagon. And regarding the second point you’ve made no mention of a potential TSE partner pushing any counter-wagon period. I don’t follow your thought process at all here with respect to how you came to the conclusion that TSE’s wagon was stagnant/stalling, or why you are saying that a stagnant wagon means one of two things but yet you don’t believe that either of those two things are true.

Any why were you interested in seeing if Chaz specifically would crop up as a counter-wagon to TSE's wagon?

[volxen]

I hardclaim Jailkeeper

@Bugs, why did you put me up to L-1, but you never voted for Koba when his wagon was a thing? You said before that you had me at nulltown, whereas I don't recall you ever townreading/townleaning Koba.

@Koba, what content from me did you find towny? My most recent content has been me explaining why I scumread George, and you have George as one of your strongest townreads. So I'm curious what content from me specifically led you to have me at nulltown.

I'll be back tonight after work.

[volxen]

volxen please be on luca

Who else besides Luca would you recommend?

[volxen]

volxen please be on luca

Who else besides Luca would you recommend?

oh word you're here. just make you choose a target you want right now in case of twilight ending

I'm not sure who I want to jail yet. I thought George was scummy but I need to reevaluate things.

You still strongly believe in scum!Luca even with TSE being scum?

[volxen]

I am the

Town Tracker

.

Volxen visited Alora last night.

VOTE: Volxen

Is this some sort of reaction test? Because you know that's false.

[volxen]

I jailed George last night so he is confirmed town.

[volxen]

@Luca This is really anti-town if you are pulling this stunt as a VT just to gauge reactions or whatever. You're not a tracker.

[volxen]

I didn’t crumb, other than saying to jail Bugs as they aren’t a PR. If I’m lying then lynch me tomorrow.

Game is won.

If you were tracker you would have known before the EOD1 that I was scum, since I hardclaimed jailkeeper and TSE outed himself as rolecop during twilight, and tracker + jailkeeper doesn't occur in column B. And yet you didn't say anything during twilight other than suggesting that I jail Bugs.

[volxen]

Please stop gambitting if you are town Luca.

[volxen]

VOTE: Luca Blight

Don't do anything rash before George has a chance to check in since he is confirmed town.

[volxen]

Hopefully George can be the voice of reason.

[volxen]

George this town needs you now more than ever.

[volxen]

George is the hero this town deserves, but not the one it needs right now.

[volxen]

Good game all!

[volxen]

See I want to feel bad because town keep winning this setup

But they keep lynching scum D1 and really deserving the win most of the time so...

Yes it seems like day 1 bussing should usually be avoided in this setup -- it's really risky unless you are absolutely confident on who the cop/jailkeeper/tracker is and that you will be able to kill them on night one (or you are absolutely confident that the town PR's are mason-mason).

Also mutual cross bussing seems really risky just in general in column A or column B, unless scum has a plan in mind to ensure that the goon loses the 1vs1 while simultaneously having both scum look like they were really trying to get the other lynched so their interactions can convincingly be read as TvS rather than SvS (as opposed to a goon who is just trying to get his slot sacked so his scum PR buddy gets towncredit). You don't want the goon to ever win the 1vs1 against the scum PR as that just gives up scum power and allows town to know which column the setup is in. In column C this isn't an issue.

And like the old newbie setup, scum fakeclaiming PR gambits work best in setups C1 (cop only) or C2 (jailkeeper only). In the former you can fakeclaim doctor, and in the latter you can fakeclaim tracker (or technically TFN but I think that's much riskier). You can't be outed as scum through massclaim or PR flips, and if you manage to take out the cop or jailkeeper early on then town has to evaluate you strictly based on your play. It's definitely a lot harder to maintain a fake PR claim as scum over the long haul in setups other than C1 or C2.

[volxen]

Oh yeah,the cellular automata stuff looked really cool.

I wonder why Alora was the NK. I thought Luca was the obvious NK.

I explained why in the scum PT, but in short I was aiming to kill VT's, NOT PR's, and Alora was 1)heavily townread and 2) obvious VT. Nightkilling the tracker already objectively proves that I am not a jailkeeper, and nightkilling the TFN puts me in a 1vs1 against the tracker. It did occur to me that I could have nightkilled Luca and then simply retracted my jailkeeper claim, but I didn't want to do that because of lynch all liars etc. Winning the game seemed far-fetched period given how day one played out, but I felt like I at least had to stick with my jailkeeper claim rather than retract the claim and claim it was a town gambit to stop me from getting lynched.

I also thought that Luca was TFN rather than tracker, since he didn't call me scum in twilight after I hardclaimed jailkeeper and TSE revealed that he was rolecop.

[volxen]

If we hadn't been in Row 1, volxen's gambit may have outed a PR, which would have helped scum considerably. Since we were in row 1, both George and Luca knew that a jailkeeper was possible, but when a rolecop flipped, Luca knew it was a lie, so the game was lost for scum already when the rolecop was lynched. volxen claiming to have jailkept George was unlucky, because chazary knew that George's message went through and that he couldn't have been jailkept.

Good job, everyone!

I did consider fakeclaiming cop to 100% guarantee I would be CC'd. The problem I had with that was that if the setup turned out to be B3, the tracker comes out and CC's while the doctor stays hidden so the game essentially becomes follow-the-cop since only one scum is left. Whereas with a jailkeeper fakeclaim in B3, it's the doctor who comes out and CC's, so the remaining scum can still try to hit the hidden tracker on night one and deal with the outed doctor later. In B2 you get CC'd by the jailkeeper with either fakeclaim, and in B1 you don't get CC'd with a jailkeeper fakeclaim whereas you do with a cop fakeclaim. And in B1/B2 with a cop fakeclaim you could simply get CC'd by the TFN rather than by the more significant tracker/jailkeeper TPR. So jailkeeper seemed like a solid choice, although in this case tracker would have worked well since it would have forced a CC from Luca.