Micro 918: Doggos Among Us [TOWN WIN]!

[Espeonage]

Vote: Norway

Lack of Gif is incriminating.

[Espeonage]

Oh joy my vote is now backed by a read.

[Espeonage]

I am ready to get out of shitpost phase bc I want to know why you have adopted spinning a narrative of scum won't hammer.

Bc realistically, until deadline if town doesn't hammer then we can't lose bc scum have to sac one of their own. So really it's town that should be refusing to hammer.

[Espeonage]

Short answer, yes.

[Espeonage]

How fucking dare you

[Espeonage]

Problem is we have brought attention to it so now we are all gonna be chilling until end of day where we are forced in to action.

[Espeonage]

Getting slammed at work and it's my gf's birthday this weekend so

LA for the next three days.

Will probably drop in once or twice, but no guarantee.

[Espeonage]

Problem is we have brought attention to it so now we are all gonna be chilling until end of day where we are forced in to action.

What do you think of Hectic's idea of leashing the hammers?

I like this tbh.

[Espeonage]

Like it removes the other option which is apathy once someone has been agreed upon as a Lynch.

However I also think that

No one should volunteer

bc that just creates extra wife that doesn't help.

Now that that has been declared I am happy to just call anyone volunteering scum bc I really don't want to deal with that shit.

If this is going to be implemented we either agree on someone to hammer or the would be lynchee picks which I think makes sense too.

[Espeonage]

I have two soft town reads, one soft scum read. So I am happy to vote within my unsorted pool bc if I am right it only includes one town and if we are voting on both we can't lose out day 1 with it.

So my Lynch pool is djester, DD, Norway, and aron.

I am willing to give a soft af town read to Aaron for caring my opinion.

So I am happy to get one of those three to hammer one of the others. Prefs for Norway to be included. Still feel his early game is scum indicative. Anyone got opinions about this?

[Espeonage]

S-sorry to bother you. Any opinion on Norwee's case on him?

I think Norwee has a valid point about clidd being a little too confident on his read and basing his solving around Norwee being scum. It doesn't really 'feel' intentional though or at least it feels non-malicious, I think it's more of a subconscious thing and I don't see his tone as hostile like Norwee said it was.

I think I'm also gonna go with a weakish townlean on Norwee at the moment just because I think town!Norwee has a tendency to take heat early like what's happening here.

I would feel this only if you think that clidd is the wolf. I don't think a newbie wolf comes out the gate like this.

[Espeonage]

I'm probably trying too hard to find the wolves slip up, it just seems like an obvious way to catch a mafia.

This doesn't happen often enough to be a solid plan.

[Espeonage]

Oh it should be stated that while I think clidd is town, I think the conclusions are bonkers and I don't understand his logic at all.

[Espeonage]

I think looking for town reads over scum reads is viable in this setup.

Why you town reading Norway?

[Espeonage]

Back, will catch up soon.

[Espeonage]

What's been happening?

[Espeonage]

I think looking for town reads over scum reads is viable in this setup.

Why you town reading Norway?

I agree, I'm not really scumreading anyone which now which is why I'm trying to work off of my townreads.

I'm leaning town on Norwee because I think as town he has a tendency to get pushed early when he's town and his play him mimics his town game decently well. I also need to look back and reevaluate Hectic's push on him.

Also I don't think clidd is new to mafia by any means so I think it's disingenuous to read him under the guise of 'he's a newbie'

By newbie I mean newbie to MS's way of playing. Which I think is reiterated by the hot garbage logic he has displayed. Like could be proven wrong tho. But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen.

[Espeonage]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

[Espeonage]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

[Espeonage]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

I don't think clidd actually has any intention to hammer.

[Espeonage]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

[Espeonage]

I have started using think bc people kept getting mad at them for being too argumentative by flat out telling people they were wrong, which I do believe you are here.

[Espeonage]

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

What is ''Money atm'' ?

If I was going to make a bet my money would be on Norway, clidd, and djester as the three scum.

[Espeonage]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

No, also this is feeling kinda gambit-y from clidd.

Gambit would be if I rolled a dice. It is different when you see a read, in fact, as a potential scum.

You are thinking random not gambit. A gambit is where you present something but it is actually the opposite or a trap.

So I am saying that you really had no intention of hammering but were saying you intended to try and grab town credit but would back out later.

[Espeonage]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Do you think clidd is scummier for any of the faulty logic in that post?

no

[Espeonage]

I thought Clidd was town bc effort seemed too strong for scum coming in to a game like this. I was feeling like it was an absence of fear which is usually town indicative, however the whole actions around drew seem terrible.

I put in djest bc drew seems townier since the flash wagon. I remember it being between them in my PoE.

[Espeonage]

I thought Clidd was town bc effort seemed too strong for scum coming in to a game like this. I was feeling like it was an absence of fear which is usually town indicative, however the whole actions around drew seem terrible.

I put in djest bc drew seems townier since the flash wagon. I remember it being between them in my PoE.

What'd you think of Doro's obsession with finding wolves slipping/signalling to each other?

Shrug, given how weirdly people are interpreting how to hunt based on mechanics I can believe it could be either alignment.

[Espeonage]

By newbie I mean newbie to MS's way of playing. Which I think is reiterated by the hot garbage logic he has displayed. Like could be proven wrong tho.

But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen

.

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

Are you townreading clidd because of the effort he's been putting in or are you happy with it because it helps you read him easier? Just trying to get a better understanding on how you read him.

I thought Clidd was town bc effort seemed too strong for scum coming in to a game like this. I was feeling like it was an absence of fear which is usually town indicative, however the whole actions around drew seem terrible.

I put in djest bc drew seems townier since the flash wagon. I remember it being between them in my PoE.

[Espeonage]

My first Jester game I hammered a super saint day 1 and won.

[Espeonage]

I actually have a ridiculously high win rate as jester.

[Espeonage]

The trick is being shit at the game and playing normally.

[Espeonage]

My first Jester game I hammered a super saint day 1 and won.

Does that count as being lynched lul? I think the enst strat as jester ris probably to lurk, but that's boring.

It was written that the hammerer was lynched rather than bombed.

[Espeonage]

So why did Norway wagon dissolve?

[Espeonage]

YOU FIEND!

[Espeonage]

Hey clidd, who are the other two scum assuming you are right on drew?

[Espeonage]

Norwegianboy is locktown from my pov. And yes, i know you don't agree.

Explain the why

[Espeonage]

Try and explain it. Like just stream of consciousness in to a post and I'll see if I can see anything I like in it I can resonate with.

[Espeonage]

Well your English is really good.

Even just like a dot points of what is giving you this psych read would suffice. I don't need an essay or anything.

[Espeonage]

Look I hate meta at the best of times, but arguing they faced pressure as town and are facing pressure here is a really bad line to take bc everyone that has ever been scum read has come under pressure. If someone reacts the same to pressure it just means that is how the react to pressure irregardless of alignment.

I feel like this argument is that a scummy townie is being scum read so that makes them townie which is completely not the case. It's just they play scummy.

[Espeonage]

I want clidd to hammer Norwee or the other way around.

[Espeonage]

Hectic's 180 on Norway for no reason is reading really poorly to me. I still feel that Norway effectively scum slipped. I agree with Aaron that I do not see what Hectic was seeing which makes it worse.

Back of my mind is that I am wrong on Norway being lock scum bc Hectic's trajectory is very scum indicative with the hard push in to White Knight territory.

A thought that has just occurred is that clidd's play can make sense if clidd is a traitor and looking to effectively 'ask' the wolf who the traitor is. Like death tunnelling for no reason on someone, looking for a reaction from the wolf and then moving on depending on the reaction. :/

[Espeonage]

I think overall, there is far too much of people town reading people town reading them and scum reading people scum reading them.

It's really hard to read potential pocketing when everyone in the game is potentially either being pocketed or pocketing others.

[Espeonage]

I think overall, there is far too much of people town reading people town reading them and scum reading people scum reading them.

It's really hard to read potential pocketing when everyone in the game is potentially either being pocketed or pocketing others.

Dude this is like the most scummy post ever.
Can your intention behind this post get boiled down to: "Omg stop solving the game and sorting people guys! It makes my job as scum harder!"

????

I'm asking people to actually sort instead of forming cliques. If everyone that town reads each other is having a nice circle jerk then the scum in there is going to have a field day and win. This is 4v3 chances are everyone is wrong at some point in their reads but if there is an us and them camp which is kinda forming then both camps are going to have scum and we lose bc the town in the smaller group gets picked off.

If someone town reads you and you are town, there is actually higher scum equity bc they know you are more likely to be town.

[Espeonage]

Like this game if effectively 50/50.

You need to be really sure of a town read for it to hold any weight.

Like it's 4v3. I am town, so the other players are 3v3.

[Espeonage]

This f- (Ok i've gotta cut down on my swearing)
This wicked Espeonage person hasn't given off any towntells this entire game and kept up a bad read on my initial post by claiming i "scum-slipped" and he has also been discouraging people from solving. I don't get why he's being townread. Although i'm assuming it's because some of his scum partners want to keep him alive.

I am actively encouraging people to solve rather than be lazy. ?_?

[Espeonage]

Meta is evil and is shown time and time again to be inherently flawed. Any case that involves meta is a flawed case. I end up talking about this every game I play and I always insist on ignoring any meta tells anyone has. And somehow?!? I end up winning a lot of games as town after taking this line of argument.

[Espeonage]

440 is @438

[Espeonage]

Like this game if effectively 50/50.

You need to be really sure of a town read for it to hold any weight.

Like it's 4v3. I am town, so the other players are 3v3.

This reasoning seems prone to paranoia.

Mafia as a game IS prone to paranoia. Like what even?

[Espeonage]

Btw Espeonage, how do you expect any lynch to happen at all unless some of the town members form a so called: "clique" and succesfully target scum? (Although i'd most likely substitute the word "clique" with "temporary alliance")

I expect people to form reads with thought, not with emotions.

[Espeonage]

Btw Espeonage, how do you expect any lynch to happen at all unless some of the town members form a so called: "clique" and succesfully target scum? (Although i'd most likely substitute the word "clique" with "temporary alliance")

I expect people to form reads with thought, not with emotions.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what i said.
Besides if two townies "logically" townread each other then you can pretty much say they have formed an alliance of sorts.

I agree. But that isn't really happening much this game. And you are the biggest offender.

[Espeonage]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

[Espeonage]

And sure you can read emotionally. I read in to people's emotions all the time. But town reading people because they town read you and scum reading people because they scum read you is lazy and negligent.

[Espeonage]

I'm not going to get mad. I'm going to ignore you and add not working with the town to the list of reasons why you are scum.

[Espeonage]

I think your 180 on Norway is scum indicative.

[Espeonage]

Hey, had other stuff taking my attention.

[Espeonage]

So considering that drew got replaced I think that there's still about zero to go on for why clidd has/had such a hard on for that lynch.

[Espeonage]

So, I propose three scenarios for today:

1°

Looker agrees and hammers Dsjstr

2°

Norwegian and Aaron vote on Looker and I, personally, take responsibility for hammering him. Or,

3°

most radical scenario: I unvote, Looker votes Dsjstr and I, again, take responsibility to hammer.

Still don't believe this until I see it.

[Espeonage]

I can get behind either Norway or clidd hammering.

[Espeonage]

Alright. Money where you mouth is.

Vote: Looker

[Espeonage]

I take Lookers obsession with seeing Norway as scum meaning that Norway is actually town.

Could be the other traitor. Still my top pick.

[Espeonage]

A scum slip doesn't stop being a scum slip just because time passes.

[Espeonage]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

This is the one.

[Espeonage]

still think this is a pure unadulterated scum post.

That said there's a chance I am wrong given voting patterns.

Given the speed of the Lynch I don't think Aaron is clear. Clidd probs is.

Scum needs to get the whole way to final 2 and there's five alive, so we have three lynches.

Just need to work out who stays alive with clidd. So I guess we just power through lynches. I probs don't get to be that 1 person. But I would say an ordered list for me is.

Norway
Hectic
Aaron
Clidd
Me

So p much happy to vote for any of the top three on that list.

[Espeonage]

Wait clidd is conf town right.

[Espeonage]

Well everyone at this point should just push through any Lynch that isn't them.

[Espeonage]

That’s the worst attempt at a scumread i’ve ever seen.

There's 4 suspects and three lynches. We lose this 25%of the time with random lynches. So I'm chill.

[Espeonage]

Dude, there's 1 scum left, 5 people and one confirmed town.

[Espeonage]

Wait clidd is conf town right.

Why is he conftown?

Day 1 Hammer.

[Espeonage]

*For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well.

From the OP.

[Espeonage]

oooooo. Interesting. Still think there's a fair bit of negative scum equity though based solely on voting.

But k, there's a possibility.

[Espeonage]

I pushed dsj day 1 too for a bit. fwiw. I think there was purposeful distancing. I'm unsure if it was with words or actions though.

[Espeonage]

All of day 1 I was convinced the other wolf was Norway. And then I wasn't around for the djester Lynch and by then I was way too far behind to do anything.

[Espeonage]

Might have been able to win if I had hammered djester