Micro 918: Doggos Among Us [TOWN WIN]!

[Hectic]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

VOTE: Norwee

[Hectic]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

[Hectic]

Norwee scumclaimed in his first post. Towncred for whoever can figure out why.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Hectic

Sup.

[Hectic]

Careful now Hectic, you might be my traitor buddy. I don't want to push you so hard yet.

[Hectic]

And before you ask, no i didn't join the game just to say that in the first post. But was it a big part of the reason? Definitely.

Is that a reference to something?

[Hectic]

(L-1 on Norwee)

[Hectic]

I actually think your first post is quite scum-indicative tbh. But I'm waiting to see if anyone else sees what I'm seeing.

[Hectic]

I am ready to get out of shitpost phase bc I want to know why you have adopted spinning a narrative of scum won't hammer.

Bc realistically, until deadline if town doesn't hammer then we can't lose bc scum have to sac one of their own. So really it's town that should be refusing to hammer.

This is partly it, but not completely.

[Hectic]

@me

[Hectic]

How fucking dare you

[Hectic]

I ain’t seeing it chief. And if i don’t know myself then who can we really trust to be able to properly see whatever it is you’re seeing?

I think we know each other better than we know ourselves at this point, Norwee. I'd trust your read on me more than I'd trust my own role PM, and I'd expect the same from you.

[Hectic]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

Fine, I'll explain:
Town come in with a mindset of being afraid to hammer, since if they hammer town, they lose. They want scum to hammer for insurance, basically.
Scum come in with a mindset of wanting to show they're not afraid of hammering, and that's gonna be the main thing on their mind, considering the day 1 hammer rule affecting them.
So the fact you chose to shitpost about that specifically in your first post is scum-indicative, since it's something which will be on scum's mind more often than town.

[Hectic]

You’re making it sound like you think i play with a motive in mind when i roll scum. As opposed to just coasting. Come on now. I read on the rules that if scum hammers on day 1 they die. So i started joking about it. That’s the problem with everyone who scumreads me, they think i have some kind of master galaxy mind motive with my play. When really i’m just being me.

I'm not saying you did it with a plan in mind. I just think the joke itself is more likely to come from scum because of the subconscious mindsets I explained earlier.

[Hectic]

Good evening, i was reading the setup specifications and thinking about how my approach would be in this match, especially with the established peculiarities about the absence of the night phase, and the premature mechanical death attributed to mafia, in case of an incorrect lynch. This, of course, creates space for unusual strategies more focused on morning turnover. With that thought in mind, i understood the first post 4 as a message with three possible interpretations:

1-

Random joke

,

2-

Instinctive statement

,

3-

Divergence of attention

, where his partners receive a window to ''safe'' vote, drastically reducing the possibility of them falling under the ''mechanical death hammer'', which appears to be more likely, compared to other possibilities. This basically implies that are 2/3 potential scums in

Dsjstr

,

Hectic

and

Espeonage

, in theory. But would everyone outside the wagon share the same indecision ? Is it plausible ?

Also, i would like to discuss this paragraph that I found in

Mini Normal 2098

, post

41

, referring to

NorwegianboyEE

:

It’s cool, i’m a bit of a kamikaze town so i don’t really spend too much time attempting to clear myself as i do trying to attack others i perceive as scum. When i’m scum it’s ironically the opposite, where i do all i can to avoid being seen as suspicious and trying to stay on the good side of the town.

(https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=80889)

What do you guys think of this statement ?

Lul, now

this

is a galaxy brain play. You're suggesting Norwee is a traitor signalling to his other traitor to vote him early so as to avoid being the hammer? I think the main problem with your theory is that you're assuming we're not going to leash the hammers, so the order of the votes on Norwee right now are irrelevant. I'm assuming we're going to try and discuss who we want the hammerer to be just as much as who we want the lynchee to be.

The self-meta from Norwee there is interesting; how did you come across it?

[Hectic]

Also, why do you think scum would go for the strategy of town hammering scum from the get go? They could potentially win today if town hammers town.

[Hectic]

Means we all agree on who performs the hammer.

[Hectic]

I’m not sure you’re engaging me in good faith Hectic. It seems like you’re blowing this way out of proportion.
Is this your scum!play at last?

What gives you that impression?

[Hectic]

Hectic are you thinking that Norwee is one of the traitor wolves who's signaling to the other traitor? Because that was my first thought when I read his opening post.

Maybe

, but probably not, there's more subtle ways to indicate over posting that. I don't think there's hidden meaning in it.

[Hectic]

Definitely, but I'm glad the rule exists where scum don't die if they hammer other scum. Because otherwise scum should always self-hammer when it's obvious we're lynching them, and it turns into a war of voting and trying to hammer them tactically when they're offline, and that's icky.



Not sure what you mean by scum would hammer for the sacrifice play. Do you mean scum would hammer town? I don't think they ever do that. They might hammer other scum for towncred though.

[Hectic]

The fun thing is that people can't refuse to hammer if we decide on someone, since we just lynch that person instead and have the hammerer be the person we originally planned to lynch.

[Hectic]

Are you burden of proficiency-ing me right now?



I'm touched, but unfortunately aren't the solving machine you think I am. If something else grabs my attention, I'll ask/point it out.

[Hectic]

Do you mean scum would hammer town? I don't think they ever do that.

Boy. Have you ever even played a mafia game?
Scum don't hammer town? HAH.
HAHA.

Don't you think scum delay hammering town since they're guaranteed die there?

Oh wait, I just realised we lynch the person refusing to hammer instead in that scenario, and the townie gets to live, so it's actually worse for scum if they refuse to hammer.

[Hectic]

So like I saw what Norwegian said as a joke. I don't think anyone was really going to try and hammer during RVS in lylo so I just went along with it. There are some good points that if the werewolves wanted to communicate they would do so by voting, but is that something they would know to do? Having experience in quick games (around 30 mins), someone who silent votes is a typical sign of a mafia member.

In this case I am talking about Doctor Drew, so would he be trying to signal Hectic is what I'm thinking.

I think this kind of misunderstanding might be town-indicative. Traitors don't know each other, and the main wolf and the traitors already know each other. So there's nothing for them to indicate to each other by doing that.

[Hectic]

The fun thing is that people can't refuse to hammer if we decide on someone, since we just lynch that person instead and have the hammerer be the person we originally planned to lynch.

You seem to have significant experience in this type of play. Have you ever played a similar setup ? What would be the best town decision considering that we are in lylo and scum can bluff by hammering partner ?

Nope, I've just been giving it some thought. I think we should either:
-Have the second scummiest person hammer the scummiest person (by consensus agreement).
-Have the scummiest person who is being lynched decide the person who hammers them (this way if they're town, it means the hammerer is chosen without outside scum influence).

[Hectic]

What is ''meta dive'' ?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Clidd, I did find it strange about how confident you were on Norwee!scum this early, or that's the impression I got from your tone. Can you summarise your scumread of him?

[Hectic]

Also, Norwee, link me the player he reminds you of from the Newbie game you're referencing.

[Hectic]

VOTE: AaronFrost


You don't scare me.
Which of Norwee/Clidd would you have hammer the other, or do you think it's TvT?

[Hectic]

Also, Norwee, link me the player he reminds you of from the Newbie game you're referencing.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11514149

Ah... that game.

[Hectic]

Me before starting the game: I’m going to have the heading of every page have a vote count and all of them will have a story pertaining to the lore of this game mode!

RIP. Btw, Norwee and I should be switched around in who we're voting for.

*Fixed

[Hectic]

I think they might in order to get past the day one rule, especially if they're the traitor goon. Then the two remaining scum just know who each other are and the game is still in lylo anyways so all they'd need is one mislynch.

Yeah, I realised that soon after. I didn't realise town hammering scum is a lot worse for them.

[Hectic]

<3

[Hectic]

@

AaronFrost

In your opinion, hypothetically speaking, how should a traitor signal if he knew his partner, but did not know who the werewolf is ?

What do you make of this, Norwee? Possible townslip?

[Hectic]

Right now I'd say clidd is 'slightly' more townie than Norwee but I don't have a confident enough read in either player to answer that question.

S-sorry to bother you. Any opinion on Norwee's case on him?

[Hectic]

@

AaronFrost

In your opinion, hypothetically speaking, how should a traitor signal if he knew his partner, but did not know who the werewolf is ?

What do you make of this, Norwee? Possible townslip?

Why do you think it might be a townslip?

He thought there's a scenario where the traitor knows the other traitor but not the werewolf, which obviously can't be the case. Do you think it's real/fake?

@clidd: What did you mean here?

[Hectic]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DREW!

As my gift to you, I'll sheep your next vote.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Clidd

[Hectic]

<3

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

I know how you guys feel, have four classes on Thursday one of which is a three hour night class. Just skimming through, Aaron really only posted about mechanics and nothing that is AI. I don't know how to interpret how Hectic and Drew are

interacting. Are the votes signals? Is someone getting pocketed? Am I too tired to think logically?

If there was some kind of signal and I am hoping there wasn't I can't pinpoint it. It might just be from Drew's first post.

Clidd is putting in a genuine effort

to solve but I think it is weird that he didn't know how all of the roles work but he knew about the exact wording from a rule that was written incorrectly in this thread. I think that it is more likely that he knew about the wolves roles but just wanted to

be perceived as town. I'm not confident in that read because it is also likely that he just made a mistake. I do like the chill vibes from this lobby, the newbie games are not like this.

Hey, Doro, did you miss this post:

So like I saw what Norwegian said as a joke. I don't think anyone was really going to try and hammer during RVS in lylo so I just went along with it. There are some good points that if the werewolves wanted to communicate they would do so by voting, but is that something they would know to do? Having experience in quick games (around 30 mins), someone who silent votes is a typical sign of a mafia member.

In this case I am talking about Doctor Drew, so would he be trying to signal Hectic is what I'm thinking.

I think this kind of misunderstanding might be town-indicative. Traitors don't know each other, and the main wolf and the traitors already know each other. So there's nothing for them to indicate to each other by doing that.

What exactly do you mean by signalling to each other? How does a traitor signal to another traitor that they are not aware of, as that is what you're implying when you said Drew may be signalling to me.

[Hectic]

That was fun to read; I like how you go about your analysis. Why is AaronFF town? You say "too early to definitively formulate an opinion on him." on him earlier in your post.

Am I the Joker because voting for Norwee early is scum-indicative, but my concern for a hammer is town-indicative?

[Hectic]

I was thinking the werewolf has all the knowledge and the traitors have enough to be able to figure out who the other traitor is. I talked about the signal being between you and Drew the first time because I see RVS as the time to get away with signalling by voting. I could really look at any interaction and claim it is signalling but I like coming up with theories like that.

I still don't understand what you mean here. I want you to elaborate on what you meant when you said "In this case I am talking about Doctor Drew, so would he be trying to signal Hectic is what I'm thinking."
Are Drew and I traitors in your hypothetical, are one of us the Main Wolf? Help me understand.

[Hectic]

Me when solving:


Clidd when solving:

[Hectic]

There are other reads that stand out in the item '' scum-indicative ''. Yes, that's exactly why I put you as a "Joker", because there is an oscillation in the read that I captured about you.

What about AaronFF? Why does he lean town-indicative? And is Espeonage primarily scum-indicative for his early vote?

[Hectic]

I was thinking the werewolf has all the knowledge and the traitors have enough to be able to figure out who the other traitor is. I talked about the signal being between you and Drew the first time because I see RVS as the time to get away with signalling by voting. I could really look at any interaction and claim it is signalling but I like coming up with theories like that.

I still don't understand what you mean here. I want you to elaborate on what you meant when you said "In this case I am talking about Doctor Drew, so would he be trying to signal Hectic is what I'm thinking."
Are Drew and I traitors in your hypothetical, are one of us the Main Wolf? Help me understand.

I did not understand the question, can you rephrase the question ? i am still overcoming the language barrier (I'm from Spain).

Yeah, no problem. I'm asking dsjstr what he meant when he posted this:

So like I saw what Norwegian said as a joke. I don't think anyone was really going to try and hammer during RVS in lylo so I just went along with it. There are some good points that if the werewolves wanted to communicate they would do so by voting, but is that something they would know to do? Having experience in quick games (around 30 mins), someone who silent votes is a typical sign of a mafia member.

In this case I am talking about Doctor Drew, so would he be trying to signal Hectic is what I'm thinking.

The bit in green is referring to this post:

VOTE: Hectic

Sup.

He's saying Drew was signalling to me/telling me we're both scum in some way. But that doesn't make sense because the traitors only know the Main Wolf, so how do they signal to someone they don't know? There are other possibilities but I won't say them until dsjstr responds, because I want to hear what he was thinking first.

[Hectic]

Fair enough. Currently, I have you and AaronFF down as townleans. The jury's still out for the rest.

[Hectic]

Cool, that's what I thought you could be getting at.

[Hectic]

Why are you so eager to hammer, clidd? Don't you want someone who could potentially be scum to hammer? I haven't seen nearly enough from Drew to be happy with lynching him. We have almost 7 days so let's use it. My current preference would be Espeonage hammering Norwee actually, but these aren't confident reads, and I need to hear more from both Espeonage and Drew especially. Clidd, AaronFF, and Doro are tentative townleans.

Aaron and Espeonage, what do you think of this Drew wagon, do you think it's justified?

[Hectic]

Agreed. I'm confused as to why you're happy with hammering him yourself, Clidd. From a town perspective, you lose if he's town, how are you so confident he's scum, that you're willing to volunteer and take that risk?

[Hectic]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

[Hectic]

Norwegian is out of the question today. For me, the effort he put in when he answered me was something that I identified with. Doctor Drew is the most rational choice considering the other options, something that I believe, or at least believed, that you would be able to observe too.

Okay, but since Drew's only made 6 posts so far, are you not interested in hearing more from him first?

Also, could you explain why you gave in to Doro's demands for you being the one to hammer so easily? Most people have expressed a townread on you, so why not try to make someone else hammer instead?

[Hectic]

Maybe, but I've actually liked Doro so far. The paranoia there and random thoughts about slips/signals he's given so far feel genuine to me.

[Hectic]

Here's my only scum game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81804

No one scumread me at any point, but it was a very memey game involving my partner getting lynched day 1, and the jester getting lynched day 2... which ended the game.

[Hectic]

I want to learn from the best, Aaron. Give me your top tips for playing scum. I understand if you don't want to waste your time with such mundane matters such as these though.

[Hectic]

In that case, I would choose to use today's rule in reverse, with me being voted on and Doctor Drew hammering, so we would both be eliminated and all theories about a possible coercive coding on my part would be disregarded, making room for you to work in a more peaceful resolution of the match.

There's no nights in this game. You as town lynching Drew who is scum is always better than Drew as scum lynching town-you, which results in both of you dying.
This is because in the case where you're town who hammered and suspected the next day for bussing Drew, mislynching you still puts us in the same position as scum-Drew hammering town-you (5 players alive, 2 scum). The difference being it's not guaranteed we mislynch you, and we still get info if we do.

That was a pain to explain, but basically, I'm even more confused as to why you'd be okay with that suggestion.

[Hectic]

If the double elimination scenario I mentioned occurs, I would like to suggest two names that will guide the outcome of the match.

Two names that are scum or town?

[Hectic]

I rate that PageTop.

[Hectic]

We get info from associations between scum, and probably get better reads on each other overall from an extra day. Main point is that it's not guaranteed we lynch you. So from your perspective, certain death should always be worse.

[Hectic]

Doro is dsjstr.
Because I don't see enough from Drew to warrant a scumread. He's null. We have 7 days, and I'm hoping Drew will contribute more through them.

[Hectic]

Hectic am i alone in feeling real bad vibes from that dude?

I advise you to take a look at my messages menalque's lines. I had the same feeling about him.

It's my birthday today, and I was at work for most of it......calm down.

I still want to see Doctor Drew posting or replaced.

Sorry........was supposed to respond to this.

Galaxy brain theory here, but Drew meant to quote that one, because he's the Main Wolf telling traitor clidd to calm down and stop attacking traitor Norwee, basically telling them they're both traitors.

[Hectic]

Probably not, but imagine that lul. Anyway, I'm V/LA mostly for the rest of today.

[Hectic]

That ignores the mechanics of this setup. You shouldn't be eager to hammer as town, unless you're VERY confident on a scumread, or people are forcing you to.

[Hectic]

Pretty sure Drew's more of a lacrosse type of guy tbh. Anyway, we're good as long as the superbowl doesn't last for 6 days.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

I agree with clidd and Norwee atm, Espeonage, but why Doro?

[Hectic]

If Clidd is scum, it's with Drew and he's happy to bus him here for the sweet sweet towncred. I don't see scum!Clidd making this play willing to sacrifice himself over hammering a town Drew. That makes no sense.

I don't think clidd actually has any intention to hammer.

Hmm, I thought Doro's vote on Drew was the third, so clidd only needed one other person to vote before hammering after his unvote. But that was only the second, which makes it a lot less risky gambit-wise actually, since it's unlikely two people would come along and vote Drew and advocate clidd to hammer.

[Hectic]

But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen.

Is this you saying clidd is town from effort despite you disliking his logic?

[Hectic]

I still don't understand Clidd at all, I don't even understand his case on me and what it's based on.

And Hectic, I wish I was nuanced enough to make that play.

No need to play yourself down, Drew; you're one the best on your day.



Give us a shotgun reads list when you come back pls.

[Hectic]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Hum, no. I keep thinking the same.

Is this you saying you disagree with ALL of his points in that post?

Probably not, but imagine that lul. Anyway, I'm V/LA mostly for the rest of today.

When you come back, i want to see your read on Espeonage.

Decent

, so far.

[Hectic]

1°

There is one Wolf goon and two traitors

- Unlike a conventional setup, as are those belonging to the scope of newbie games, it has three instead of two members belonging to the scum side. This impacts the game in the sense that, considering that town side does not have mechanical tools (prs), it becomes much more difficult to find associative evidence between the three individuals, if not impossible.

This context benefits neutral players much more significantly than aggressive ones

.

2°

There is no scum chat

- There is no private communication exclusive to them, which prevents more elaborate pre-day strategies. However, it does not completely stop the execution of more intuitive movements of common sense

(including self-vote too)

.

3°

For day 1 only, if a member of the werewolves (werewolf Goon or 2 traitors) were to be the last person to vote to lynch a player, they would, themselves, be lynched as well

- I believe that this rule, in isolation, suggests a generalized misinterpretation, if not complemented with additional information displayed in the messages along with the roles. Such deficiency opens up the possibility that i mentioned in post 80, where a scum can claim innocent by hammering a partner and not automatically die (which contradicts the initial interpretation of the rule).

Pointing this out in post 51 was essential

to clear up that doubt, but it was also strange not to have been mentioned by someone else before. I believe that not only me, but others were also aware of this disparity in interpretations, but they chose not to comment.

This also suggests the reasoning that the scum, as a rule, should vote early, to avoid the hammering situation later.

4°

The Werewolf knows who the two traitors are, and the Traitors both know who the Wolf is, but they do not know who each other are

- Considering this, signaling scenarios don't come into play.

This would make the misunderstanding described in post 91 correct.

5°

This game is nightless

- In addition to emphasizing the morning period and prioritizing the voting stage, there are two others characteristics: the fact that it is not possible to eliminate an active voice player, whose presence would be a threat to the late game, and the incentive to not do risky gambits, considering that the game can end at any time, if performed incorrectly. It is very likely that the approach by scums, given this scenario, would be more incisive, considering that they can win if they advance a player's lynch early in the day.

Based on that, they would jump at the first viable wagon opportunity

5.

Okies, I have issues with this bc I think your conclusions are all wrong.
1. I think given the mechanics and the need for traitors to not hammer each other that associative and reading in to information gathering allows for plenty of associatives later in to the game. I think fundamentally this game functions similarly to any other, just that some of the logic behind it changes. I don't think any play style is alignment indicative.
2. No daychat is common enough and has not been proven to change play styles a heap. I don't think there is likely any way to reliably signal traitor to traitor, however wolf could be signalling. Pre-day Strats tend to never go to plan in MS style mafia bc there is far too long required to hold up and any tenseness created by trying to illogically stick to a game plan gets scum read quickly. Over a few hours or 1 day, this can be expected to maybe work, but not here.
3. I kinda see your logic here but I don't think that the logic doesn't apply to town. We also don't want to hammer bc if we're wrong we lose flat out.
4. I think I covered this in point 2.
5. Given the small player list and that vocal people tend to be both strongly town read and strongly scum read, I think there is very little to be gained from looking at in thread charisma and presence as indicative of anything other than player skill neutrally.

Given that I don't really see your logic all together I think that any conclusions while potentially correct due to the near coin flip of any slot flipping scum, I think it would be purely coincidental.

Do you think clidd is scummier for any of the faulty logic in that post?

[Hectic]

Pre Edit: Stop sniping me Hectic! Haha

[Hectic]

Who would those two names be, Clidd?

[Hectic]

I thought Clidd was town bc effort seemed too strong for scum coming in to a game like this. I was feeling like it was an absence of fear which is usually town indicative, however the whole actions around drew seem terrible.

I put in djest bc drew seems townier since the flash wagon. I remember it being between them in my PoE.

What'd you think of Doro's obsession with finding wolves slipping/signalling to each other?

[Hectic]

I like Clidd’s case too.
His general observations on the setup seem genuine and beneficial towards town.
As for Drew i know he likes to lurk as scum. An example of this behaviour is Micro 902 cultist recruiter mafia, an game where he was cult leader, showcasing it quite nicely how he does indeed have the ability to excuse himself from participation by citing real life distractions. Take a look at posts 522, 597, 602, 826, 888 and 894 in particular.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81377

Also my name is spelled wrong in the OP, something Clidd has started to emulate. It is NorwegianboyEE, not NorwiganboyEE.

Norwee's been scummy, but putting the effort in here was pretty towny. What prompted you to go scout this out, Norwee?

[Hectic]

VOTE: Clidd

Ha, no lolhammers pls

[Hectic]

UNVOTE: Clidd That one

[Hectic]

Can i self vote ? (according to the rules)

Technically, yes, but I still don't understand why you're so confident on Drew being scum.

[Hectic]

Wow, that's presumptuous of you. This is my first game as a werewolf, so I'm quite nervous, and a good pagetopped VC is what I look forward to every day. It really helps settle my nerves.

[Hectic]

Reminds me of the time I rolled jester. My aim was to be as scummy as possible, but I ended up being a UTR because I was "too scummy to be scum". It was a UPick game.

[Hectic]

That's when I first met Aaron Fucking Frost of course. He wasn't even in that game, but I could feel his presence emanating through since he was playing a game that was a couple of threads away. I'm not sure how he managed it, but I'm pretty sure my every action that game was puppeted by Aaron, even though I didn't even read the game he was playing.

[Hectic]

My first Jester game I hammered a super saint day 1 and won.

Does that count as being lynched lul? I think the enst strat as jester ris probably to lurk, but that's boring.

[Hectic]

That was a good era for me. I met Doctor Drew in my next game. I'd heard about his reputation of being a cult leader, but I didn't expect to be worshipping Yog-Sothoth irl by the end of it. All it took was "Sup Hectic" and I was buying membership for his cult online. I think it's just the tone he used, he was so persuasive with that "Sup".

Pedit: Ah, nice

[Hectic]

And then of course there's Norwee. My first game with him had the town in shambles, as town PRs kept dropping like flies every night. But turns out he was just a Town vigilante who was scarily efficient at sniping them off. I think he'd make a fantastic SK, and I haven't written him off as one here.

Now's your chance, slimer.

[Hectic]

Wow, Esponage's post made me miscalculate. Unbelievable.

[Hectic]

Oof, I just don't see how you can have him as locktown, especially after your scumread of him initially.

[Hectic]

Now's your chance, slimer.

legit almost did it again

Next time you need a PageTop, just @ me and I'll fill the gaps with some monologues.

[Hectic]

Are you doubting,

AaronFFrost

?

[Hectic]

Genuine thought process. Only thing I've disliked from him is townleaning you simply based on you taking heat early. In fact, could you elaborate on that, AaronFF? Are there particular things town!Norwee does that draws heat early, which you see this game? Or are you townleaning him for the reason of being suspected early alone?

[Hectic]

How's the analysis coming along, Norwee?

[Hectic]

Doro, what do you think of clidd hammering Norwee? Or vice versa?

[Hectic]

Sorry, slimer...

[Hectic]

Well, of course

you

think that's an awful idea. What's your preference for hammerer/hammeree right now?

[Hectic]

Remember: 2nd scummiest person as hammerer, and scummiest person as hammeree is optimal, I believe.

[Hectic]

How many days are left ?

3 and a half

[Hectic]

Votecount 1.6

dsjstr

- (0)

Hectic

- (0)

Doctor Drew

- dsjstr (L-3)

NorwieganboyEE

- Espeonage (L-3)

AaronFrost

- (0)

Espeonage

- (0)

Clidd

- Doctor Drew (L-3)

Not Voting: NorwieganboyEE, AaronFrost, Clidd, Hectic - (4)

With 7 Players alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is (expired on 2020-02-08 13:00:00)

*Hectic has been bludgeoned with a quarter for taking the page top.

...please nerf your quarters.

[Hectic]

He's given reasons for clidd, but why are you scumreading Norwee, Espeonage?

Drew, do you think Norwee is bad lynch here?

[Hectic]

You know, upon a reread, I can see potential in your posts coming from a more well meaning but misled townie mindest. I should cut you some slack.
My reads are as follows: Norwee < Doro/Drew < Clidd/Espeonage < Aaron

Doro on the other hand has been focusing too much on catching Wolves slip up and doesn't actually look very interested to solve. Initially, I thought this was coming from a townie mindset, but upon reconsideration, Wolves are going to be more hyper-aware of slips because they're more aware of their strange situation, and might even be thinking about signalling. So wolf!Doro is gonna think it's normal to look out for such slips if he wants to look like a townie.

I think I'm getting pretty good at metareading Drew at this point, I'm 4/4 on his alignment the last 4 times I've played him (3 scum, 1 town - stop rolling scum, Drew!). There's still not

enough

from him to be confident, but he's swinging that way this game so far.

So, Doro hammering Norwee. Or Drew hammering.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Norwee

[Hectic]

Norwegianboy is locktown from my pov. And yes, i know you don't agree.

Ugh, I forgot about this post. Locktown is basically 95%+ confidence, clidd. Could you go over you confidence on Norwee!town one more time please?

[Hectic]

I need to revisit Norwee. I had him as a town lean but I wasn't super strong. I'm on mobile rn though so that's not happening right now.

I'm starting to think I did just catch him from his first post. The way he came out attacking clidd, and then immediately backed off and started townreading him when clidd reconsidered feels very manipulative. Norwee and clidd are both traitors or scum V town, I'm thinking.

[Hectic]

Really? Since when was I your number one scumread? But yeah, I'll hammer if others are happy for me to.

[Hectic]

*others want me to

[Hectic]

I'm not scumreading you for you first post alone, Norwee. And you were earlier suggesting your read on me was above the null line, so why the change?

[Hectic]

Just so you know, I'm not gonna make the mistake again of not pushing you when I think you're scum just because I enjoy you as a player, Norwee. Learnt my lesson when you flipped it around and used it against me in that Fusion game lol.

[Hectic]

I'm not scumreading you for you first post alone, Norwee. And you were earlier suggesting your read on me was above the null line, so why the change?

You seem to have already concluded that i'm scum and should be the lynch today. Which is quite hasty for town!you.

No? Clidd asked for preferences, and I provided them.

[Hectic]

Just so you know, I'm not gonna make the mistake again of not pushing you when I think you're scum just because I enjoy you as a player, Norwee. Learnt my lesson when you flipped it around and used it against me in that Fusion game lol.

So you believe scum!me would use the same strategy again? Lol, not happening.
Anyway this post from you is weird. Just because i fooled you as scum once doesn't mean i'm scum here. You're in a tunnely mindset right now. Which is indicative of being a scum player.

You're misreping the intention of this post. It's not given as reasoning for why you're scum here, it's me mentioning how I'm just gonna be completely honest with my read of you from now on.

[Hectic]

I'm not scumreading you for you first post alone, Norwee. And you were earlier suggesting your read on me was above the null line, so why the change?

You seem to have already concluded that i'm scum and should be the lynch today. Which is quite hasty for town!you.

How about this? We lynch Hectic. Or if you guys want to lynch me, Hectic hammers.

Either way the scum dies

VOTE: Hectic.

If i'm gonna get lynched for a stupid reason then at least

i'd want to take scum with me.

And i don't like your thick-headed approach this game Hectic.

It's funny you say this about me being hasty and being too confident about scum!you, just because I put you bottom of my reads lol. I'm not trying to rush anything, but on the other hand seem to have concluded I'm scum from these posts.

[Hectic]

Let's put our differences aside for now, Doro. Your slip hunting

can

come from town or scum, but the lack of scumhunting was my main concern. I'm feeling a lot better about Norwee!scum now though, I wouldn't even mind too much if you guys made me hammer.

[Hectic]

Just so you know, I'm not gonna make the mistake again of not pushing you when I think you're scum just because I enjoy you as a player, Norwee. Learnt my lesson when you flipped it around and used it against me in that Fusion game lol.

So you believe scum!me would use the same strategy again? Lol, not happening.
Anyway this post from you is weird. Just because i fooled you as scum once doesn't mean i'm scum here. You're in a tunnely mindset right now. Which is indicative of being a scum player.

You're misreping the intention of this post. It's not given as reasoning for why you're scum here, it's me mentioning how I'm just gonna be completely honest with my read of you from now on.

Well you should have been completely honest with your reads from the start. You've got nobody to blame but yourself for having so easily been taken advantage of in fusion mafia.

Sure. Your point? I'm not blaming you.

[Hectic]

No, you were explicitly asking who should hammer me.
And if you put me at the bottom of your reads it's pretty clear you're already scum reading me hard. And what i'm asking myself is, why?

If you're talking about my question to Doro, that was to get a better read on him.

A reads list is all relative. Having you at the bottom doesn't mean I was hard scumreading you, but you were my biggest scumread. I'm feeling more confident now though.

[Hectic]

-Your read on Clidd went from hard scumread to townread right after he started reconsidering you.
-Clidd's calling you locktown and you're saying stuff like I don't think I can ever lynch Clidd today. Feels like pocketing.
-Your stance on me right here. You've been misrepping the intention of my posts. Like, clidd literally asked for preferences to hammer, and you're saying "you're too deadset on me being scum for town!you, you were talking about who should hammer me" - did you forget where everyone else is talking about that because clidd asked it?
-While critisising me on being too confident on scum!you, you make these posts:

If i'm gonna get lynched for a stupid reason then

at least i'd want to take scum with me.

And i don't like your thick-headed approach this game Hectic.

How about this? We lynch Hectic. Or if you guys want to lynch me, Hectic hammers.

Either way the scum dies

VOTE: Hectic.

seeming to be deadset on scum!me yourself while not having a scumread on me from what I can see for the rest of the game.

[Hectic]

YOU STILL HAVEN'T EXPLAINED WHY YOU SCUM READ ME FFS.

I've literally said all these reasons in prior posts btw, but if you need me to compile them into one because you don't want to go back and check, there ya are.

[Hectic]

"Feeling more confident now though. hehe~ <;PP"
That's not a good reasoning Hectic.

[Hectic]

@AaronFF: Have you played with Norwee!scum before? Have you ever seen him rage as scum?

[Hectic]

Because I kinda haven't which is worrying me slightly now.

[Hectic]

Could I get all your reads in order, Norwee? A shotgun list without reasons is fine, though they would massively help.

Also, I'm

always

lurking, but I wouldn't be stupid enough to hide under your bed. Don't check the closet.

[Hectic]

You know, upon a reread, I can see potential in your posts coming from a more well meaning but misled townie mindest. I should cut you some slack.
My reads are as follows: Norwee < Doro/Drew < Clidd/Espeonage < Aaron

Doro on the other hand has been focusing too much on catching Wolves slip up and doesn't actually look very interested to solve. Initially, I thought this was coming from a townie mindset, but upon reconsideration, Wolves are going to be more hyper-aware of slips because they're more aware of their strange situation, and might even be thinking about signalling. So wolf!Doro is gonna think it's normal to look out for such slips if he wants to look like a townie.

I think I'm getting pretty good at metareading Drew at this point, I'm 4/4 on his alignment the last 4 times I've played him (3 scum, 1 town - stop rolling scum, Drew!). There's still not

enough

from him to be confident, but he's swinging that way this game so far.

So, Doro hammering Norwee. Or Drew hammering.

I explained my reasoning before, but after hearing what Norwegian said I am thinking that you are just trying to twist my strategy against me.

Hmmm. What did Norwee say that made you think I'm twisting your strategy against you?

[Hectic]

Yeah, Norwee's probably town here based solely on that rage lol. I just reISOed his Fusion game and he remained composed consistently, even though he was the leading wagon for pretty much all 3 of the days, and this rage feels very familiar to a town!game I've had with him. Correct me if I'm wrong, Aaron.

grumble grumble

[Hectic]

Just so you know, I'm not gonna make the mistake again of not pushing you when I think you're scum just because I enjoy you as a player, Norwee. Learnt my lesson when you flipped it around and used it against me in that Fusion game lol.

So you believe scum!me would use the same strategy again? Lol, not happening.
Anyway this post from you is weird. Just because i fooled you as scum once doesn't mean i'm scum here. You're in a tunnely mindset right now. Which is indicative of being a scum player.

You're misreping the intention of this post. It's not given as reasoning for why you're scum here, it's me mentioning how I'm just gonna be completely honest with my read of you from now on.

Well you should have been completely honest with your reads from the start. You've got nobody to blame but yourself for having so easily been taken advantage of in fusion mafia.

Though I'd feel so dirty if you were scum here after taking this potshot. But I'm hoping you don't have the audacity to say this as scum and try and rile me up.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Doro

[Hectic]

So you thought the scumteam was exactly AaronFF, Espeonage, and I at that moment?

[Hectic]

Forgot he existed while I was asking the question tbh.

[Hectic]

Hectic's 180 on Norway for no reason is reading really poorly to me. I still feel that Norway effectively scum slipped. I agree with Aaron that I do not see what Hectic was seeing which makes it worse.

Back of my mind is that I am wrong on Norway being lock scum bc Hectic's trajectory is very scum indicative with the hard push in to White Knight territory.

A thought that has just occurred is that clidd's play can make sense if clidd is a traitor and looking to effectively 'ask' the wolf who the traitor is. Like death tunnelling for no reason on someone, looking for a reaction from the wolf and then moving on depending on the reaction. :/

Why "no reason"? I did a meta check and found something he only does as town and never as scum; I'd say that's a pretty good reason. Is the scumslip referring to his first post?

[Hectic]

The ''Joker'' is playing well.

You mean that as in "playing well for being town", "playing well for being scum" or "playing well in general"?

Playing well in general.

[Hectic]

Why'd you like Doro for town, Norwee?

[Hectic]

Why'd you like Doro for town, Norwee?

I've played a bunch of newbie games lately and he's giving me very strong newb!town vibes. And i've had a very strong consistency with those reads.

Idk, I skimmed through this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

-and he did a lot more solving there, whereas here, it feels like he's using the slip-hunting thing as an excuse to do less solving.

[Hectic]

Espeonage has a point tbh. I haven't been doing that though; I'm sus of Drew after he called me his top townread. And I townread Norwee while I was still his top scumread.

[Hectic]

Hectic's 180 on Norway for no reason is reading really poorly to me. I still feel that Norway effectively scum slipped. I agree with Aaron that I do not see what Hectic was seeing which makes it worse.

Back of my mind is that I am wrong on Norway being lock scum bc Hectic's trajectory is very scum indicative with the hard push in to White Knight territory.

A thought that has just occurred is that clidd's play can make sense if clidd is a traitor and looking to effectively 'ask' the wolf who the traitor is. Like death tunnelling for no reason on someone, looking for a reaction from the wolf and then moving on depending on the reaction. :/

Why "no reason"? I did a meta check and found something he only does as town and never as scum; I'd say that's a pretty good reason. Is the scumslip referring to his first post?

Mind replying to this, Espeonage?

[Hectic]

Why'd you like Doro for town, Norwee?

I've played a bunch of newbie games lately and he's giving me very strong newb!town vibes. And i've had a very strong consistency with those reads.

Idk, I skimmed through this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

-and he did a lot more solving there, whereas here, it feels like he's using the slip-hunting thing as an excuse to do less solving.

Did you skim through his ISO here, Norwee?

[Hectic]

Not to brag or anything, but that's

5

(unintentional) PageTops in a row.

[Hectic]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

I mean, you can work to make it obsolete, and not succeed in that - which most people don't. Btw, why do I read poorly for using meta? Sure, you disagree with it's use, but are you saying you think it's scum-indicative when I used it earlier?

[Hectic]

Ok so i compared the two Hectic. And my conclusion is that Djstjr is playing how i expect a town player moving up from the newbie league to a more "experienced" sort of game would be playing. So i think the fact that he’s showing slightly less confidence here is a town indicative thing and thusly i wouldn’t say he’s scum based on difference with his townplay in the newbie game you linked.

Hmmmm, maybe. His recent post is pretty towny though, that kind of nuanced speculation is good.

[Hectic]

This "i am the best at solving with my methods and you guys suck and are bad at the game if you don’t do what i do" attittude is the kind of elitist BS that really pisses me off in this site.

Lul, true tbh, but mafia's a argumentative/emotional game. I'm used it by now.

[Hectic]

*used to it by now

Drew, you need to get in here soon if you wanna avoid being policy.

[Hectic]

Maybe we should go back to the Clidd hammering Drew plan.

[Hectic]

Wow, you took slimer's PageTop.

@slimer:

No one would blame you if you feel a modkill is warranted here.

[Hectic]

Ok clidd, if you want to go meta dive me, do it. Enjoy the fact that I regularly manipulate my meta when both town and scum to effective make me unreadable by that method. You ill also find the many arguments I had with multiple people as multiple alignments about how terrible meta is and how I believe that if you are readable by meta you deserve to be modelled for trust tells.

I know that I can't institute it, but I am very outspoken in how much I despise anyone building or even including meta in their cases. If you have readable meta and do not ACTIVELY work to make it obsolete you should not be playing mafia.

I mean, you can work to make it obsolete, and not succeed in that - which most people don't.

Btw, why do I read poorly for using meta? Sure, you disagree with it's use, but are you saying you think it's scum-indicative when I used it earlier?

Espeonage^

[Hectic]

Can I nickname Dsjstr as Doro for votes please? I'll even help you devolve that Eevee into a Pidgey if you let me. If you're wondering how:

Don't worry, I have my ways.

For now though VOTE: Drew

[Hectic]

Could I request an early prod on Drew please, slimer?

Nu.
-Theslimer3

[Hectic]

That's L-1

[Hectic]

I wouldn't mind too much if Doro hammered here because I'm impatient, but waiting for Drew is probably the correct play.

[Hectic]

Yeah, definitely wait for Drew actually. Don't take that as an invitation to hammer.

[Hectic]

Hectic------ Doro /¯ Drew
Aaron------ Doro /¯ Drew
Espeonage- Clidd /¯ Norwee
Doro------- Drew /¯ Clidd
Norwee---- Espeonage /¯ Drew (?)
Clidd------- Doro /¯ Drew (?)
Drew------- ??????????????

Am I correct in these assumptions?
Also, clidd, why is it that you asked everyone and emphasised the importance of stating preferences, yet never gave one yourself?

[Hectic]

Just saying: He's afk across all his games so the inactivity itself is NAI.

[Hectic]

Hmmm, should we have Espeonage be the one to hammer instead?

[Hectic]

Oh actually, clidd would be a good hammerer too.

[Hectic]

Just that I'm getting second thoughts again about Doro after that bout of careless posting, kinda gave off a natural tone.

[Hectic]

Anyway, we should get an extension (I hope) if Drew needs to be replaced which it's looking he'll need to be.

[Hectic]

Doctor Drew has requested replacement. The deadlines has halted until I find a new player, then it will resume with an adequate amount of time added.

[Hectic]

When a humble hec~
Graced a ride along~
With

slimer the moderator

~
along came this sooong~

From when the slimer fought~
A silver-tongued devil~
The shadow of the slot~
At time did theeeeey revel~

Drew came after me~
With masterful deceit~
Broke down my will~
And kicked in my teeeeth~

While the devil’s horns~
Minced our tender meat~
And so cried the slimer~
He can’t be beeeeeat~

[Hectic]

I'm new; let me get my bearings. Please ask/accuse away.

VOTE: AaronFrost Hectic has more gifs than you

[Hectic]

You were trying to pocket pops with your song though. My song's for our dear moderator.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Looker, if you want something to focus on, ISO Doro (djstr) and tell us your opinion of him. Is his slip-hunting genuine?

[Hectic]

It's not a very long read.

[Hectic]

Still Drew slot. Why?

[Hectic]

I think Espeonage should hammer Looker. The disappearance act so close to deadline isn't great.
Why those 3 as scum, Looker?

[Hectic]

@mod: V/LA until the 10th.

Though I'll probably have to make an exception here.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

So, Dsjstr lynched with Looker hammering or the opposite ? @AaronFrost

So, Dsjstr lynched with Looker hammering or the opposite ? @AaronFrost

dsjstr lynched, Looker hammers

VOTE: Dsjstr

clidd, how come you were so easily convinced to lynch Doro over Looker with AaronFF's opinion here? Wasn't Looker your extremely confident scumread? After all, you even hammered him earlier when most wanted Doro to.

[Hectic]

I take Lookers obsession with seeing Norway as scum meaning that Norway is actually town.

This is a kind of shallow read. Why aren't you considering the fact that Looker knew it's pretty much a lost cause of a slot, so tries to bus/set up false associatives?

[Hectic]

Doro and Espeonage, can I get your guesses for remaining scum?

[Hectic]

You wanted to lynch Doro because he wasn't cooperating to hammer Looker you mean? I don't see that.

[Hectic]

Lul

[Hectic]

Clidd who do you think is remaining scum?

Probably Espeonage and Dsjstr, as i said in post 154

I would appreciate it if you hammer, Hectic.

Don't you want your other scum-candidate (Espeonage) to hammer? Also, why the rush?

[Hectic]

Right, I don't know why I thought the mechanic still applied.

Doro, your reads would be helpful to begin with.

[Hectic]

Wow lol, he just hammered himself. Easiest game of my life.

[Hectic]

See ya, Doro, hope to see you in even more games.

[Hectic]

It probably just is Espeonage as last scum. He's avoiding this game.

[Hectic]

Lul, the hammer is tempting, but we should at least let him pop back in to see what he says.

[Hectic]

Wait clidd is conf town right.

Why is he conftown?

[Hectic]

still think this is a pure unadulterated scum post.

That said there's a chance I am wrong given voting patterns.

Given the speed of the Lynch I don't think Aaron is clear. Clidd probs is.

Scum needs to get the whole way to final 2 and there's five alive, so we have three lynches.

Just need to work out who stays alive with clidd. So I guess we just power through lynches. I probs don't get to be that 1 person. But I would say an ordered list for me is.

Norway
Hectic
Aaron
Clidd
Me

So p much happy to vote for any of the top three on that list.

Also, why am I still up there. You're townreading Aaron and clidd for the lynches, but not me for wanting Doro to hammer Drew, or the other way around for most of day 1?

[Hectic]

Wait clidd is conf town right.

Why is he conftown?

Day 1 Hammer.

Scum doesn't die if they hammer scum. It's only if scum hammers town.

[Hectic]

If a wolf were to hammer another wolf day 1, then they wouldn’t die. It’s only for an innocent getting lynched by a wolf that would result in them dying along side them. Only for day one of course.

[Hectic]

I think I'm at Espeonage>Norwee>Aaron/Clidd

If I'm being honest, Norwee, your rage was town-indicative, but I haven't been entirely impressed with the rest of your play.

[Hectic]

Just that I'm getting second thoughts again about Doro after that bout of careless posting, kinda gave off a natural tone.

That's what i've been saying about his slot for a long time. Glad i'm finally not the only one that sees it.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Espeonage Well, let's find out.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Thanks for modding, slimer; it was a blast.

I don't think the setup is town-favoured. Everything just happened to fall in place for us. Managing to see Norwee was town and both of us simultaneously untunneling was a big turning point.