Micro 918: Doggos Among Us [TOWN WIN]!

[AaronFrost]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

[AaronFrost]

I'M WILLING TO HAMMER! DO YOU HEAR THAT? I AM WILLING TO HAMMER!!

[AaronFrost]

realistically, until deadline if town doesn't hammer then we can't lose bc scum have to sac one of their own. So really it's town that should be refusing to hammer.

Unless one of the traitors accidentally hammer the other traitor then this game is perpetually in lylo so I don't think scum would mind sacrificing someone if they only need one mislynch all game.

Hectic are you thinking that Norwee is one of the traitor wolves who's signaling to the other traitor? Because that was my first thought when I read his opening post.

[AaronFrost]

To my understanding for D1 if a wolf hammers then they die even if they are hammering a wolf, I meant that if someone hammers D1 and they don't die they have to be town. Am I understanding the rule correctly?

" Reminder for day 1, if a Townsmember is lynched and the last vote on them were of the Werewolf Faction (Traitor or Werewolf Goon), then they will commit suicide as well. Day 2 follows all conventions of the game. "

My interpretation was that if anyone is hammered by a wolf then the wolf who hammered dies along with the player hammered, so if one of the traitors hammer the other traitor then both of them die. I think.

@Mod - is this correct?

[AaronFrost]

Gotcha, thanks. Mechanically that means no one can be cleared.

Yeah town should absolutely never hammer here. Scum will probably never hammer their partners either since that would put them at a disadvantage numbers wise, but I think scum would be perfectly willing to sacrifice someone to get to D2.

[AaronFrost]

Problem is we have brought attention to it so now we are all gonna be chilling until end of day where we are forced in to action.

What do you think of Hectic's idea of leashing the hammers?

[AaronFrost]

Hectic are you thinking that Norwee is one of the traitor wolves who's signaling to the other traitor? Because that was my first thought when I read his opening post.

Maybe

, but probably not, there's more subtle ways to indicate over posting that. I don't think there's hidden meaning in it.

I mean from my experience with him Norwee isn't exactly known for being subtle

Thing is if a scum were to hammer for the sacrifice play, I'm not sure if they'd announce their willingness to do it, I think they'd just do it once a wagon got to L-1. I do agree that town should be less willing to hammer because of that though and I also like the idea of leashing the hammers. I think that should be something everyone has to agree on though because scum can easily dictate who they want to hammer.

[AaronFrost]

Not sure what you mean by scum would hammer for the sacrifice play. Do you mean scum would hammer town? I don't think they ever do that. They might hammer other scum for towncred though.

I think they might in order to get past the day one rule, especially if they're the traitor goon. Then the two remaining scum just know who each other are and the game is still in lylo anyways so all they'd need is one mislynch.

[AaronFrost]

@

AaronFrost

In your opinion, hypothetically speaking, how should a traitor signal if he knew his partner, but did not know who the werewolf is ?

You have it backwards, the traitor knows who the wolf is, and the wolf knows who the traitors are, but the traitors don't know who each other are.

Not too sure how someone would pull that off. One example of a traitor crumb that went completely over me and my partners' heads one time was this.

[AaronFrost]

VOTE: AaronFrost



You don't scare me.
Which of Norwee/Clidd would you have hammer the other, or do you think it's TvT?

Right now I'd say clidd is 'slightly' more townie than Norwee but I don't have a confident enough read in either player to answer that question.

[AaronFrost]

S-sorry to bother you. Any opinion on Norwee's case on him?

I think Norwee has a valid point about clidd being a little too confident on his read and basing his solving around Norwee being scum. It doesn't really 'feel' intentional though or at least it feels non-malicious, I think it's more of a subconscious thing and I don't see his tone as hostile like Norwee said it was.

I think I'm also gonna go with a weakish townlean on Norwee at the moment just because I think town!Norwee has a tendency to take heat early like what's happening here.

[AaronFrost]

My problem right now is that I mildly townread all of Hectic/Norwee/clidd which would leave a PoE of dsj/Espeon/Drew from my point of view which doesn't feel right for some reason so it's likely at least one of my townreads is a wolf.

I could get on board with dsj or Drew, but none of my reads are strong enough to warrant placing my vote anywhere.

[AaronFrost]

I think looking for town reads over scum reads is viable in this setup.

Why you town reading Norway?

I agree, I'm not really scumreading anyone which now which is why I'm trying to work off of my townreads.

I'm leaning town on Norwee because I think as town he has a tendency to get pushed early when he's town and his play him mimics his town game decently well. I also need to look back and reevaluate Hectic's push on him.

Also I don't think clidd is new to mafia by any means so I think it's disingenuous to read him under the guise of 'he's a newbie'

[AaronFrost]

Well the werewolf could let the traitors know who who they are. Thank you for not considering me a newbie clidd, I am trying even if the results don't show it . I guess I really don't have an explanation for what I said earlier, I do think I am wrong now, on the off chance I was right Drew could be the werewolf and was going to place a vote on both traitors but we intervened so he couldn't go through with the plan. That's just how I would play it off, but I doubt that was actually the plan.

I think that if the wolf were to try and signal to the other traitors like that then the traitors might not pick that up. Like if it's in RVS, then most people are just gonna assume that it's random or for some silly non-game related reason. I think there'd have to be better/other signals that the traitors would be able to pick up.

Of course that could backfire if a townie notices it.

[AaronFrost]

I'd rather not use someone's V/LA against them tbh

[AaronFrost]

I am willing to hammer, if there is collaboration in voting.

I'm pretty sure we discussed this already but the decision on who hammers should be unanimous. You being willing to hammer Drew feels hasty and I don't like how you're trying to rush a Drew lynch.

[AaronFrost]

I am NOT willing to vote Drew at this point. Nothing he's done makes me believe that he has a > random chance at flipping wolf and no one has given a solid case against him either. Like yeah he's been inactive but he's also been V/LA so like maybe wait until his V/LA ends?

[AaronFrost]

I agree with norwegian's 172, but I am worried about how convincing clidd is. When he shared his thoughts on the setup I saw that as NAI, any role could do that. The fact that I was already sussing Drew and then people started joining makes me

hesitant to join the wagon. If we did want to lynch Drew than I would want clidd to be the one to hammer. Right now I would have placed my vote on clidd if he wasn't already at L-2. I think part of my uneasy feeling is that you did vote for Drew rather

than me. What was the reasoning for that vote?

I think this might be indicative of a dsj/clidd partnership. The first bit looks like he's trying to distance by speaking about his hesitance towards the Drew lynch but then goes on to follow clidd's wagon on Drew despite the weak reasoning.

Not sure what this says about Drew's alignment unfortunately.

Hectic is now my strongest townread. I also realized that I have yet to play with scum!Hectic so I'm not entirely sure what his scumplay would look like

[AaronFrost]

I want to learn from the best, Aaron. Give me your top tips for playing scum. I understand if you don't want to waste your time with such mundane matters such as these though.

I'll be sure to give you some pointers after this game ends

[AaronFrost]

Like i understand why people want to wait and not rush a hammer, but i don’t think it makes Clidd scummy for it. Being eager to vote a scumread is one of those town behaviours that seem scummy on the purpose, but really isn’t.

In a world where we're playing a normal mafia game, this is true but with this setup scum can just win today if they can get town to hammer another town, which is why town should be a bit more cautious with who they're voting and why.

Also from my experience, Drew is a player who is frequently mislynched early in games. I'm not saying that definitively makes him town since I have no opinion on his alignment whatsoever, but that knowledge combined with shallow reasons for lynching him make me hesitant to join this wagon.

[AaronFrost]

By newbie I mean newbie to MS's way of playing. Which I think is reiterated by the hot garbage logic he has displayed. Like could be proven wrong tho.

But I feel pretty happy with the level of effort I have seen

.

Money atm is on Norway/clidd/djester

Are you townreading clidd because of the effort he's been putting in or are you happy with it because it helps you read him easier? Just trying to get a better understanding on how you read him.

[AaronFrost]

Can you quote a game in which he was mislynched early ?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81273

[AaronFrost]

Can you quote a game in which he was mislynched early ?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81273

That game finally ended?

Yeah it just ended like two days ago lol.

clidd are you scumreading Drew for reasons other than inactivity?

[AaronFrost]

I thought Clidd was town bc effort seemed too strong for scum coming in to a game like this. I was feeling like it was an absence of fear which is usually town indicative, however the whole actions around drew seem terrible.

This sort of mirrors my thought process right now, but looking back at clidd's posting, he is putting a lot of effort in but I feel like it's a little 'too' much effort early on in the game. I think more often than not scum need to put more effort into what they're doing in order to make themselves look townier while sometimes town has a tendency to get lazy (something I can definitely attest to).

[AaronFrost]

My third language is english, so i have to put together my reads, build my thesis and then translate, word for word, adapting to english language.

Your english is pretty good for it being your third language!

[AaronFrost]

Doctor Drew basically suggested some very small deviations from the standard he had in games as town, not to mention another factor (which would need to mention a game in progress, that is, forbidden) that was decisive for me to keep my reading about it.

Can you point out some of the specific deviations that he mentioned here that he didn't in other games he's played as town?

[AaronFrost]

Genuine thought process. Only thing I've disliked from him is townleaning you simply based on you taking heat early. In fact, could you elaborate on that, AaronFF? Are there particular things town!Norwee does that draws heat early, which you see this game? Or are you townleaning him for the reason of being suspected early alone?

His play here sort of reminds me of Large Normal 224 where he was pretty erratic and sort of a 'kamikaze' (can't remember who brought up Norwee's meta where he describes himself has that but I feel like that word fits his playstyle). I think I was one of like two people in that game who townread him and I about died on the inside when they lynched him despite the fact that he claimed jk but couldn't do anything about it because I was dead.

[AaronFrost]

I think at this point I'd want clidd lynched with either dsj or Drew to hammer.

[AaronFrost]

Why is there talk of hammering Norwee?

Have you like read any of this game lol

[AaronFrost]

I need to revisit Norwee. I had him as a town lean but I wasn't super strong. I'm on mobile rn though so that's not happening right now.

[AaronFrost]

@AaronFF: Have you played with Norwee!scum before? Have you ever seen him rage as scum?

I've only played with him in Large 224 where he was town. I think he (as well as players in general) tend to remain more calm when under pressure as scum. I think he had a similar reaction when he was about to get lynched in that game. This reactions feels more townie than scummy.

If Norwee is scum then it probably looks something like Norwee/clidd/{dsj, Drew}. You and Norwee probably aren't scum vs scum unless you're both the traitor wolves which I don't think is the case since Hectic is my strongest townread.

[AaronFrost]

If i'm gonna get lynched for a stupid reason then at least i'd want to take scum with me. And i don't like your thick-headed approach this game Hectic.

I don't see a wolf wanting to get lynched because it takes away the possibility for a D2 lylo, Norwegian was fine with getting lynched as long as their scum read did the hammering. That made me believe he was town and that Hectic wanted me or doc to hammer in order to get a wolf win.

Only problem with that theory is that it would require Hectic being the wolf goon since that's the only one who knows who all the scum are.

Are we reading the same game? Because Norwee does not sound like he's okay with getting lynched at all.

What happened to your Drew read? You had him in your bottom two earlier and now you're saying that Hectic would want you

or Drew

to hammer for a wolf win which would require both of you being town hammering another town.

[AaronFrost]

And yes I changed my mind about Drew, part of my reasoning was because of the evidence that was provided by other players. If they are mafia then I had fallen into their trap, kinda... I know it wasn't really a trap necessarily.

What evidence? Has anyone argued that Drew is town? If so then I don't remember that.

[AaronFrost]

Why "no reason"? I did a meta check and found something he only does as town and never as scum; I'd say that's a pretty good reason. Is the scumslip referring to his first post?

I'm gonna agree with Espeon here in saying that meta isn't a useful way to read people. Like I think it can be helpful for noticing certain patterns of behavior, but to say that Norwee is town because he does x as town and he's doing x here and has never done x as scum isn't reliable. I think someone like Norwee who has an established scum meta would try to play into that meta more.

I do still town read him for his reaction to pressure though.

[AaronFrost]

*would try to play into his town meta more

[AaronFrost]

I'm not going to get mad. I'm going to ignore you and add not working with the town to the list of reasons why you are scum.

Do you think that both Hectic and Norwee are scum together? I really don't see their interactions as scum vs. scum but I suppose that they could both be traitor goons who are unaware of each other, which the only situations where I see both of them as scum here.

[AaronFrost]

I didn’t change my mind because other people were town reading him.

What made you change your mind then?

[AaronFrost]

The fact that he is an easy target that has a few people ready to kill him. I also believe that we can get more info from another lynch.

We have to hit scum today or we lose. Period. Lynching for "information" isn't ideal in this game.

[AaronFrost]

Thinking about it more, I think I want this

VOTE: dsjstr

I see what Hectic is getting at with the little to no attempt to solve but I also think his play around Drew's slot is bad and might suggest a partnership between the two. He's saying that Drew is an easy target yet he joined that 'easy target' earlier himself. I think I want Drew or clidd to hammer this.

[AaronFrost]

@Dsjstr

Do you prefer to be lynched instead of Doctor Drew ?

Not at all but I am not sure about your reasoning behind voting Drew over me.

What exactly was not clear to you ?

I guess nothing

VOTE: Doctor Drew

I don't disagree with this lynch so I won't argue. He started the game sus and he hasn't done anything to change my mind.

Like this looks terrible the way he just agrees with clidd's weak case on Drew out of nowhere. Either he's buddies with Drew and he found an opportunity to distance or he sees Drew as a good mislynch that can just end the game. Could be either one due to the mechanics of this game.

[AaronFrost]

If we're lynching Drew I want dsj to hammer

[AaronFrost]

Just saying: He's afk across all his games so the inactivity itself is NAI.

Partially why I want dsj over Drew

[AaronFrost]

Hectic who do you want more, Drew!slot or dsj?

[AaronFrost]

I'm not really sold on Drew!scum tbh and would rather get dsj because I'm more confident in my read there

[AaronFrost]

If you're willing to hammer him,

AaronFrost

, I accept.

I want Looker to hammer him

[AaronFrost]

What I don't understand is why DJ is more likely to be scum than Norway, Espeo, or Clidd. (I thought I repped into this D3, but it's just D1.) I like Clidd's posting, but that's playstyle, not alignment. I also like democratically choosing the D1 hammer to make the most of it. I'm not getting what's differentiating DJ from anyone else. I'm fond of AaronFrost, though, so there's sheep potential.

Just his entire ISO. There's a serious lack of sorting from him as well as being engrossed in getting the wolves to 'slip up' which doesn't feel genuine to me.

You replaced into a slot that lurked and people wanted to lynch so if you could make your alignment obvious that'd be cool

[AaronFrost]

So, Dsjstr lynched with Looker hammering or the opposite ? @AaronFrost

dsjstr lynched, Looker hammers

[AaronFrost]

Why would I want town to hammer town?

I have no idea what you're seeing in town dsj and you seem way too confident in that read for me to be comfortable with.

Please hammer. If you don't, then I'll have the third scummiest player in my list hammer and if dsj flips scum then we're powerlynching you tomorrow.

[AaronFrost]

Oh cool I was about to say I'd be okay with lynching Looker then. Sweet.

VOTE: dsj

Looker's refusal to hammer pretty much solidified my read here.

[AaronFrost]

"wHaT iF hEs tRaItOr ThOuGh?"
Well yes, but we generally want you to start your FOS by analyzing the confirmed scum’s ISO.
I think Lookers refusal to hammer Dsjstr could point to either town or scum!Dsjstr because since Looker was scum he would still die by hammering town there. I’m not sure yet though.

I think it points to both being scum. Based on the gamestate, it was either dsj or Looker getting lynched so if dsj was town I think Looker would hammer here so that the other wolves are in a better position where they need only one mislynch to win the game.

I suppose it's possible they're both traitor's who don't know each other, but Looker's read on dsj felt fake to me, which implies they knew about each other, which implies that dsj is the wolf goon.

We have some wiggle room here too, it's 2 vs. 6 meaning scum now needs two mislynches to win instead of just one.

[AaronFrost]

clidd's town equity went up with this flip too although I'm not conf towning him off of this because of the aforementioned traitor mechanics.

[AaronFrost]

Alright cool gonna iso dsj and look for associations. I'm leaning towards Espeonage probably. Both Looker and dsj flipping scum is + town equity for clidd, Hectic's been obvtown the entire game, and I'm just not feeling Norwee scum here.

[AaronFrost]

Also if anyone has doubts about me being town here, I'd like to point out that I wanted dsj over Drew slot on D1 and remained adamant about that even after everyone else wanted Drew.

Last traitor knew about dsj and didn't know about Drew/Looker.

[AaronFrost]

I'm pretty sure it's in Esp/Norwee with a strong lean towards esp

VOTE: Espeonage

[AaronFrost]

Ayy we did it

Thanks for modding slimer, this was a fun setup

[AaronFrost]

I was hoping the WiFoM would compensate for the day 1 shenanigans possible, but holy crap. I wanted to tweak some things in favor of the town for the next run of this, like making any wolf that hammers town, they die instead, but after seeing this play out I’m afraid to

@Aaron thxthx

I think that would actually make this more townsided as scum would like never hammer Day 1 meaning anyone who refuses to hammer is just scum.

I suppose we did run into that problem in this game though so I think it'd have been better for Looker to hammer in the long run.