Mini Normal 2118: Boon Gets Pretentious - [Day 4]

[Hectic]

Unhappy to roll scum, eh, Aaron?

VOTE: AaronFrost

This is me distancing.

I

[Hectic]

Woah, if it isn't my favourite burger-eater.

[Hectic]

Huh, thanks for informing us. Be transparent with your reads and thoughts and you're good.

[Hectic]

I'm a lot better at town hunting than scum hunting, but I don't spend enough time doing it tbh.
Liking the Lord of the Rings GIFs from Flippo. Early townlean.

[Hectic]

Why'd you unvote, Flippo?

[Hectic]

VOTE: Luca

[Hectic]

o.k. insomnia, what should I have been focusing on there?

[Hectic]

Creative's entrance was a little too helpful and LAMIST-y actually.
Creative, you asked for help reading you, which I gave a suggestion for, what do you mean by non-confrontational?

[Hectic]

Voting someone and then coming back 20min later to unvote them without replacing the vote seemed weird, even for RVS. Probably reading too much into it though.

[Hectic]

The winds are ominious tonight. Tread carefully, Luca.

[Hectic]

There's a crumb in Ame's post, guys. The italicised words spell:

Not I am mafia.

So she can't be mafia.

[Hectic]

Careful poking the bear, insomnia. Wanna explain why his vote is wolfy before you enrage him?

[Hectic]

@mod: V/LA until the 10th.

[Hectic]

Don't worry, friends, I'm here to save the day.

[Hectic]

Felt bad that no one answered Ame's questions, so:

• What is the origin of your name?
  
• Do you like being scum, huh?
  Do you enjoy your scumminess? Do you revel in it like some sort of sick fast-food worker, who despite being sick is forced to come into work anyway because they aren't offered paid sick leave and need every working hour they can get just to get by?
  
  
• If Wimpy was driving a burger-mobile from the North, Aaron, electric banana skates from the South, Insomnia, a baseless read from the West, and Luca, a golden chariot
  from the East
  also from the West, who would you vote for?
  
• If Wednesday?
  
• Are you ready to join the town corpse...I mean Corps!?

1) Landed on "Hectic" as an online name more than a decade ago. I like it.
2) Absolutely. I relish being scum, and you'll often find me replacing out of games where I roll town. What's the point of playing mafia if you don't get to lie to your friends?
3) I'd vote for Ame driving in with the RQS from the East.
4) It's the horse's name?
5) I need a list of benefits first.

[Hectic]

Their post is so inoffensive and nice, it feels like they’re trying to get on people’s good sides.

psh you think you know me dawg?

Spoiler:

I am

not

mafia.

I

am not mafia.
I

am

not mafia.
I am not

mafia

.

I

am

not

mafia.

I really wanted to play with Creative too

Well damn you must be telling the truth. After all, no one would ever lie about not being mafia in a game of mafia. That'd be silly...

VOTE: Ame

Was this a RVS, Aaron, or did you get some

bad feels

like Luca did?

[Hectic]

Nvm, you already answered that.

[Hectic]

AaronFF looking good based on page 4.

[Hectic]

I can kind of see your premise for the push, but the part that bothered me was that you followed upon it only later, which read to me as weird because it's attempted to look like a joke while technically you're pushing out of RVS, it felt very agenda-y in that sense. As in, it's disguised as RVS, has a snarky tone to it but isn't flat out stating a suspicion. And you saying the wall is scummy and the voting being focused on something else strikes me as odd, as I'd imagined the vote and your initial accusation / gut feel should've been a contiguous thought, whereas that waiting period made it seem like you were baiting reactions from other people so as to see how they felt about Ame's wall and judging whether it was worthy of a push or not. Also why i pointed out the "something worth pushing" whereas I would've expected town to say "It's scummy" as opposed to "worthy of pushing" because it involves two different mentalities. Scum look at what pushes they can get away with, and town pushes for things that are actually gonna make someone flip scum.

I don't agree with all the logic here, but it feels too nuanced to be scum I think.

And I just realised this was a 9er lmfao, thought it was a 13er

Potential townslip. Why'd you think it was a 13p game?

[Hectic]

I actually think you have quite a courageous scum game play (or you are faking it well), this beating around the bush feeling I got from the push is definitely weird, I just interpreted that as scummy at face value but having *some* experience with you it'd probably be town indicative? Might dive into your meta.

So only ame's scum?

AaronFF is more reserved/less stance takey as scum from what I've seen.

[Hectic]

I have reason to believe Clidd doesn’t like playing as scum, and he’s ignoring this game while being active on site.

What reason do you have to believe this?

[Hectic]

Ame's Flippo read on page 5 was a good catch. Not liking Wimpo's vote there. You voting here there because you think she's scum, or because you think she's lying about realising you were V/LA? Stupid thing to lie about.

[Hectic]

Actually put Luca down there too.

Rev.

Town
AaronFrost

Leaning Town
insomnia
dsjstr
Luca Blight
Hectic

Leaning Scum
Wimpy
clidd

Leaning Scum+
Luca
Emperor flippyNips

Nips > Luca > Clidd > Wimpy for win

What caused Luca to go from Leaning Town to Scum++? He didn't post in between your lists.

[Hectic]

I think we should rush it cause this game will become pretty hard to read if one of us isn’t resolved quickly.

I want other people to weigh in on this

Yeah, no. Bad idea.

[Hectic]

Leaning Town
insomnia - Somni is currently my town axiom, essentially playing the game on the assumption they are town. they remain this way until/unless the game becomes inconsistent with this assumption. Also my initial impression of their interaction with you is someone trying to scum hunt with scare resources

Vote: Insomnia

Ame, how did you go from that (which actually sounded more like a strong townread over a "leaning town" read - to voting for him? I can't see if you've explained anywhere.

[Hectic]

Hectic If you can dial back your posting frequency and maybe combine thoughts into less posts I’d appreciate it.

Sorry, will do.

I have reason to believe Clidd doesn’t like playing as scum, and he’s ignoring this game while being active on site.

What reason do you have to believe this?

Nvm, you already answered this, Luca.

[Hectic]

Up to page 7 thoughts:
Ame's tone and not really panicking when on L-1 feels towny, but her internal thought process is all over the place on stuff like moving Luca from town to scum, or voting for insomnia after describing him as almost locktown.
211 is really towny though. Hard for scum to fabricate a flowing thought process like that.

In your case, I did get an initial town impression from you, and having ~3 scum leans in a 2-scum game I felt comfortable enough working with that, and that if you were scum, it would show in time through your reads (i.e. if they started to radically diverge and I couldn't follow your thought process). I had a bit of doubt from your Aaron push because Aaron seemd pretty town to me, and at the time of Wimpy's antagonizing explanation, I felt you were worth exploring. What I thought to be a sudden change in your Aaron read was suspicious to me, but looking at you closer I saw that you did actually express those thoughts before. This made me feel a lot better and it was consistent with my thinking that town somni = similar reads. When I went to bed, my only lingering concern was your Wimpy read (I had intended to question it when I was back), and even that was addressed on its own. So, overall, yea I do TR you.

At what point in this thought process did the insomnia vote come in?

I already think scum is in Ame, Clidd, Hectic.

this is about where im at too rn

maybe it is insomnia instead of hectic... hmmmm

Why does insomnia need to replace me specifically? Or was I just your 3rd strongest read?

clidd's 250: Like this overall but don't like how easily you're locktowning people. Why can't Wimpy use that meta against you as scum?

Three scum are in the unsafe pool.

This is very interesting. What gave you the impression there were 3 scum in the game, clidd?

Mindmelding with most of insomnia's reads. Agree on Ame/Aaron being town.

Doro actually giving out scumreads and pushing people is a very good sign for him.

VOTE: Flippo
Flippo's posted a lot but nothing's pinged me as town (other than the Harry Potter GiFs near the start which were top tier quality).

What'd you think of clidd's wall, Flippo? And has your read on Ame changed since wanting to quicklynch her?

[Hectic]

So to better answer your question. No I don’t think she lied. I think she actually thought that was an acceptable strategy and it’s not.

I don’t care if she didn’t realize it was Sunday. Even if it had been Monday, that’s when I would have just been getting back.

It’s a low life despicable reason to vote for somebody and to me that means she’s scum or a low life despicable player who thinks that it’s ok to vote somebody who’s v/la.

Either way. I don’t give a damn. I am unable to look past it. I definitely will never be able to town read this slot so the best thing to do is to get rid of her. She’s shown poor judgement and is incapable of helping town win.

Okay, but do you think 211 comes from scum? It explains her thought process really well there. And do you have any other scumreads?

[Hectic]

Nothing happened to my Ame read, but I got pinged by Clidd for the reasons mentioned. I’ve been in two game with him, he was scum in both and did the same thing - posted a couple of times then replaced out, while remaining active onsite. I can conclude from this that he simply hates playing as scum, and my vote will remain on this slot until he starts contributing.

Clidd, why is Luca locktown because he said this? Why can't he say this as scum?

[Hectic]

I'm considering the scenario where there are 3 scums, because of what I've read so far.

3 scum is imbalanced for town for a 9 player game. Even 11 player games usually have 2 scum. Are you saying 3 scum because too many people were acting scummy in your eyes?

[Hectic]

Is this information confirmed ? I still have the impression that there are three scums. Yes, basically this.

I don't see it being confirmed anywhere in the rules, but I'd be VERY surprised if there were 3 scum this game. I've never seen a 9 or even 11 player normal with 3 scum.

[Hectic]

I'm on Flippo, Leafy.

[Hectic]

Also, I didn't watch the Oscars because Ricky Gervais wasn't hosting them. Smh.

But I evidently need to watch The Irishman.

[Hectic]

So, Hectic, can i trust you or we'll probably or are we likely to collide ? we are in so many games together that your typing variation confuses me.

Lul, I wouldn't read into my typing style at all. I intentionally vary it game-to-game.

Before I can trust you, I need your input on the best Kamek profile picture from this album: https://imgur.com/a/6cF3xdk

[Hectic]

Oh, Flippo's on L-1.

[Hectic]

Yeah, sure. UNVOTE: Flippo

[Hectic]

But I believe that you, again, will be like a ''joker'' in my reads.

Come on, clidd, tell me your favourite from here: https://imgur.com/a/6cF3xdk

[Hectic]

Determined kamek.

You're the first person to have chosen that one. Interesting.

Hectic, unvote Flips please. I want to catch up without worrying about a lolhammer.

This guy is extremely locktown, I hope you see that too.

I can get behind that being town-indicative, but I disagree with the locktown thing still.

[Hectic]

Why does it lose meaning? I asking the question because I think it has potential to be a townslip, but I wanna check.

[Hectic]

Are y'all just like coldhearted mafia consumers? To me, mafia is a social game, and I enjoy making friends in the process.

How were my RQS answers?

[Hectic]

Ame, do you mind addressing 297?

[Hectic]

Luca, what does scum!Flippo look like? And why do you SR me?

Wimpo, am I right in assuming you think clidd is town despite pushing you?

[Hectic]

And

Wimpy

is getting the game dirty to read, I would consider a modkill here, so we can stop the progressive loss of IQ. Being offended by something so ridiculous is very superficial.

[Hectic]

Clidd, I don't understand your solving process this game. How did you go from Wimpy "unsure" to Wimpy "locktown" because he requested a replacement? What? The reads I'm used to seeing from you usually aren't as shallow as the reasons you're locktowning Wimpy/Luca.

VOTE: clidd

[Hectic]

Also, could you explain why I'm in your "Unsure" category?

[Hectic]

Ame, if you think me answering an RQS is scum-indicative, please see: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11457012 (it's a nice read)

Luca, wanna elaborate on that scumread of me then?

[Hectic]

This is what I'm more used to seeing from clidd as town: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11552826

As town, he's very analytical and has good fleshed-out reasons for sorting people, but I'm not seeing the same thing in how he's townlocking Wimpy/Luca here. The reasons given there don't warrant a townlock. Not 100% I saw this, but why are you townreading him, AaronFF?

[Hectic]

Insomia said if anyone called his reads baseless he’d essentially lose his shit. I did that and nothing. So I voted him to try and like the bear some more. And still nothing.

This is scum trying to keep their cool. Insomnia doesn’t strike me as a guy who keeps his cool.

Oh, nice! That makes a lot of sense.

I guess I missed this post, Ame, but why didn't you mention disliking his weird push on Aaron in your reads list, since it came before?

[Hectic]

Determined kamek.

+1

Woah, this one might be becoming a serious contender.

[Hectic]

Because he wouldn't say this as scum. We played a game together, and he's acting the same way (he was town that game).

Best way to play as scum is to play how you would as town

Do you know the player TSE ? (TrueSoulEnergy) I am feeling something similar with your playstyle (scum indicative).

I like this post, not sure this PoV comes from mafia either. Feeling as though scum would just deliberately choose to push someone for their in-game content rather than just choose to compare them to another player's style, I have yet to see wolves take this approach, surprisingly. it's like trying to justify a gut feeling, all the while not being able to properly put the finger on the "why", so they choose to do it by comparing it to another player, whereas scum wouldn't even bother to make such points, hope that makes some sense.

@Hectic, what do you think about this point?

It's interesting. + point for clidd since I can see the logic where scum are less likely to have a nuanced thought process where they start comparing scummy behaviour to players they've played with before which have scummy playstyles.

Still don't like clidd overall though, like him putting me in the Unsure category for "PoE" alone is also something I'm not used to. His reasons for sorting seem a lot less substantial than his town-game.

[Hectic]

As long as we vote Emperor, Dsjstr or Hectic today, we're good.

VOTE: Emperor FlippyNips

If you truly TR me then trust my read on Flips.

I think dsjstr is Town as well. Hectic is a decent option, although I need to review.

Ok, i will.

UNVOTE: Emperor FlippyNips

clidd, why'd you unvote on Luca's request here? Can't town be wrong about their reads? Luca was scumreading you before this, and from your perspective, you should know he's wrong about that, so why trust him on Flippo being town?

[Hectic]

You're saying scum wouldn't fake a read which they couldn't explain, right? But clidd stated a read... and explained it. I'm not sure what you mean. Also, clidd's default is having reasons like that for reads, and that is one of his good ones. But the townlocking thing and confidence there is what concerns me. I don't think it's natural to go from "unsure" to "townlock" on Wimpo on a replace out.

Also, clidd, Wimpo's replace out happened in other games too. Does it still make him a townlock?

[Hectic]

What does FUD stand for, Ame?

[Hectic]

Did you ever explain what caused the shift from Luca-town to scum in your read lists, my Ami, Miami?

[Hectic]

Lul, how many votes he on? Flippo, bring us this reads list ASAP, even if you're not sure, just lay your thoughts out.

[Hectic]

Did you ever explain what caused the shift from Luca-town to scum in your read lists, my Ami, Miami?

I had an initial ping on Luca (84). Then TLed his 109. Then Aarons 113 made me reconsider. He posted at the same time I made my first list. I read his post afterward, reconsidered, and made my revised list.

Cool, that makes sense.

[Hectic]

Okay, what caused the shift on your clidd-read, Flippo? Also, get on him over Ame if you agree. Every time I've asked Ame to explain her thought process revolving around something she's done/flipped on, she's provided something that feels legitimate.

[Hectic]

Okay, what caused the shift on your clidd-read, Flippo? Also, get on him over Ame if you agree. Every time I've asked Ame to explain her thought process revolving around something she's done/flipped on, she's provided something that feels legitimate.

well when i talked about clidd before it was strictly #250 every other post gives me off vibess. they feel like hes trying to say what people would tr him for. & him "locktowning" luca seems like a pocketing attempt

did she ever explain the insom tr then vote then almost immediate vote switch to me?

if so i'll give it a rest for now

Yeah, in 422. I don't think it warrants going from "insomnia is my town axiom" to voting him but at least there's an explanation.

[Hectic]

@Clidd looks like your intuition was wrong.

No,

absolutely not

. Of course, he may be confused, or even acting sporadically, but he remains town. The point where he looked for my two games, was where I became convinced of that. It would be very easy to push me to get lynched based on the premise of Hectic, for example, which creates a parallel with the effort that I usually apply in some matches. Considering that he did not act according to 3 or 4 scenarios in which he could definitely have achieved my lynch today, it is plausible to confirm him as locktown (at least in my view). It is also likely that he still has a strong SR on me, but prefers to simulate an apathy about it in exchange for my collaboration, judging that statistically, it is advantageous to have support in the voting phase, regardless of alignment.

Don't you think if he's scum, you townlocking him would incentive him to not push for your lynch? You're not the only viable mislynch for scum.

Ame, how much have you played with AaronFF/Luca before?

[Hectic]

Doro, I'm assuming you're still good with your Flippo read? Who'd be your second guess for scum?

I still kinda like AaronFF based on the last couple of pages. I think his scumgame is a little different in that he has less interest for solving. Also, the uncertainty/fencesititng looking behaviour is actually a town trait for Aaron (I think), he has unusual confidence in reads as scum:

I'm like 95% confident that davesaz is town.

I also believe that Garmr is telling the truth as dumb of a move as that was, so he is probably town.

and other stuff in this ISO

[Hectic]

Lul, I think I'm gonna have to skim though this game you guys keep bringing up. Probably be useful.

Ame, I got my games mixed up with regards to your question earlier.

Clidd, have your two townlocks being so certain of each other being scum changed your opinion on either?

[Hectic]

Gave it a brief read, and I think Somni's play here is mostly consistent with his play there. The attack on Luca is similar to the one on Chara at the EoD 1. Curious to hear why you think he's behaving differently here, Luca.
Felt bad when AaronFF claimed scum, but I enjoyed the trolling that came after lol. Seeing his play there makes me feel a lot more confident about this being town!Aaron though. His play here is very similar to the game I just had with him where I correctly identified him as town very early on, and it's nothing really like the game I just skimmed. Ame and Somni see that too, so I'm struggling to see why Luca doesn't see that same thing. And no, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that AaronFF's ironed out his scumgame to such an extent after 1 game.

[Hectic]

Entertaining the possibility of a Clidd+Luca team. Luca "scumreads" clidd early for not being active enough. Clidd locktowns him for it and Luca backs off because Clidd's playing the game which is town-indicative. Distances them early and gives them a reason to townread each other later. Tinfoil theory for now.

[Hectic]

Catching up on this later today.

[Hectic]

Ame, why do you have both clidd and I as 0 scum equity? You trust me but have no faith in my clidd metaread?

Also, somethings have changed about that metaread which makes clidd not as likely scum, for reasons I can't really expand on. Basically, I'm not scumreading him for the lessened analysis this game, but still am for the locktowning. I'll give Karnage a quick ISO.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Karnage

I’m willing to go along with for now due to the approaching deadline. I still much prefer an Insomnia lynch.

Luca, how come you went along with Ame's Karnage scumread, but not my clidd-scumread? You had them on the same tier in your previous reads list.

[Hectic]

Regarding Karnage: I like him pointing out 598. Oh, and 740 is his last post. That wasn't what I was expecting lol

[Hectic]

Guess, it's time to ISO good ole Wimpo then.

[Hectic]

Regarding Wimpo: So I intially townread his tunnel on Ame, since it fit with something I've seen town!Wimpo do before. It wasn't for the same reason (attacking someone on V/LA) but because someone shaded him once for what he thought was a bad reason, and he tunnelled that person until replacing out. 130 is a pretty eh threat though. 141 feels exaggerated. Ame, what's this game which gave you the impression that Wimpo is powerwolfer or whatever? Also, my marathon game is starting so will resume this later

[Hectic]

Lul, what did I miss? 1v1s on mafiascum are always the highlight and simultaneously the most painful things to read on this site. One day, I might even be in one of these.

[Hectic]

So Luca and Flippo are masons. We wait for Flippo to corroborate the claim before we lynch, though it's probably not necessary. I keep zoning out while trying to read through this 1v1 and keeping up with flow of events (didn't get a lot of sleep), but I'm townreading Insomnia's tone unless he has a really strong AtE game as scum. For the record, I've played with him once before (he was scum), and he was a lot more calm/composed and less spotlight grabbing, that game was half year ago though.

[Hectic]

Somni, who are you scumreading now that Luca's claimed mason? You haven't placed your vote anywhere.

[Hectic]

Well, I'll be following the vote that Luca sets. There is still a small chance that Wippy left due to the discomfort in interacting with Ame. And I still believe in Insomnia as an incisive town, but it can be a problem if he establishes another similar tunnel, with another player, and the whole conflict begins again.

You're willing to follow Luca's vote onto Somni even though you have him as locktown? Are you suggesting you'd policy lynch Somni?

[Hectic]

It is selfish of me, but I would like to be right about Insomnia and Karnage being towns, as I defined in my initial read.

VOTE: Insomnia

How is this selfish of you? You're voting someone to prove to us they're locktown?

Why is no one considering clidd here?

[Hectic]

Ame, why do you have both clidd and I as 0 scum equity? You trust me but have no faith in my clidd metaread?

Also, somethings have changed about that metaread which makes clidd not as likely scum, for reasons I can't really expand on. Basically, I'm not scumreading him for the lessened analysis this game, but still am for the locktowning. I'll give Karnage a quick ISO.

I wasn't sure you yourself had faith in your meta read, as you mentioned it wasn't certain. But yeah, even so I'm not sure it would be enough for me to scum read him considering he admitted to trying something different this game and Luca has the opposite conclusion from his meta read (I do think Luca-Clidd is possible, but currently it ranks lower than other potential teams).

Regarding Wimpo: So I intially townread his tunnel on Ame, since it fit with something I've seen town!Wimpo do before. It wasn't for the same reason (attacking someone on V/LA) but because someone shaded him once for what he thought was a bad reason, and he tunnelled that person until replacing out. 130 is a pretty eh threat though. 141 feels exaggerated. Ame, what's this game which gave you the impression that Wimpo is powerwolfer or whatever? Also, my marathon game is starting so will resume this later

Micro 913.

Interesting quote:

Two successful strategies as scum.

1. Hard bus
2. Get locked in a 1v1 with a townie.

I usually end up death tunneling somebody every game as town so as scum it makes no sense to kill creature.

I suspect that #2 is what he was trying to do here.

This is actually very interesting. Raises Wimpo-scum-equity considerably

[Hectic]

It is selfish of me, but I would like to be right about Insomnia and Karnage being towns, as I defined in my initial read.

VOTE: Insomnia

How is this selfish of you? You're voting someone to prove to us they're locktown?

Why is no one considering clidd here?

^

[Hectic]

Actually, I am in a position where two of my lock-towns have wagons to line up, so the choice is not so important (mainly due to the inaccuracy in Insonia's reads). You probably know that my methods are atypical, as are my considerations, so I don't understand the surprise about that

Why aren't you voting another potential wagon like Karnage that isn't one of your locktownreads?

[Hectic]

Unfortunately, I do not intend to engage here with full focus. Recently, I haven't been doing so well mentally.

Sending <3 your way, clidd

[Hectic]

If you’re town you ruin our chances to win. People who scum read people on v/la are lazy and unwilling to scum hunt. Your reads should never be trusted

@everyone please let’s lynch AME before this game gets out of control.

If he thought it was a town reaction he’d have immediately adjusted his read on me. So he’s a liar or a hypocrite.

Omgus is a nai reaction.

I think we should rush it cause this game will become pretty hard to read if one of us isn’t resolved quickly.

All of these are way over the top. I thought he was genuinely pissed but that's some prolonged anger over time.

I'm at a problem where I have no idea how to read Wimpy's deathtunnel of Ame. Like there's a part of me that thinks that that kind of behavior almost never comes from scum, but I think the way he's going about it is also objectively anti-town.

Then go ahead and lynch me today because it will continue. I will not vote anyone else this game until she is gone.

Even after a lot of us tried to get him to stop tunnelling, he wasn't having it any of it, and shot down every argument before this. Either ridiculously stubborn town or scum who won't back down because hard tunnelling is his strat lol.

you know what. That's not fair to anyone. sorry.

The post before the replace out. Unsure how to view it. Wimpo's repped out of literally every game I've played with him, and I think the remorse here he could be faked if he's scum and wants to leave his slot in a better position. NAI I think.

VOTE: Karnage
Prefer this to Somni.

[Hectic]

Karnage is also lurking, and that's bad sign close to deadline.

[Hectic]

Is that a scumclaim, Somni?

[Hectic]

Clidd > Hectic > Aaron

I think it's more likely his partner was already on his wagon. Otherwise, why not give his partner a chance to come around and hammer. If his partner is Aaron or Hectic they just look bad. It doesn't make sense to leave them in that position.

Clidd was the first vote, and the Insomnia/Karnage wagons were quite evenly matched. Like it was 4/4 with Doro as the decider until you flipped over to insomnia.
What makes you think clidd is hard bussing?

[Hectic]

Clidd is very unlikely scum based on that. Ame could've been bussing since she flipped over to insomnia after(?) I think Doro had expressed preference of voting insomnia over Karnage, which meant insomnia was going down one way or another.
The rest of her play has been towny though so she's like the top end of my PoE.

[Hectic]

I think insomnia probably hammered to avoid his partner giving away any more info, due to the lack of day chat, and maybe the partner trying to defend a lost cause which would make them look really bad today.
I think it actually points towards a couple of people more than others but I might be reading too much into it.

[Hectic]

Currently at Karnage>Doro/Aaron>Ame. Would be very surprised if clidd was scum.

Karnage is mostly scum for Wimpo. I've seen towny things in both Aaron and Doro, but should probably reexamine them.

[Hectic]

Doro, where are you at in terms of scum right now?

For now VOTE: Karnage

[Hectic]

Ame, the thought process was hard to fabricate because each step had a an event attached to it and the reason felt legitimate, in that I could put myself into that PoV and see the same thing if you know what I mean. Sure, scum have a plan but probably not as detailed as that in terms of logic.

[Hectic]

Why was there being an explanation enough for you, if it didn't warrant the transition?

Eh, I still found it weird after that, but your explanation for what you meant for "town axiom" later helped. Just was slightly better since if someone flips on a read and can't even come up with a realistic reason that's a huge scumtell.

[Hectic]

Yeah, clidd, I don't think that really justifies locking me as town, but I'd definitely agree with your reasoning if there was day chat lol. I really don't like people throwing in the towel with self-hammers; but it's usually worse when town does it over scum, since sometimes there's nothing scum can do.

[Hectic]

@dsjstr

It could be clidd/Insomnnia Hectic/Insomnia, I think we just have to lynch Insomnia

(1) Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that it was Insomnia here? Why was Karnage and Aaron out of the running for you? You had previously stated suspicions on Aaron.
(2) Why didn't you vote Insomnia?
(3) Why would Luca not dying warrant neighbors claiming?
(4) Why do

you

think Somni self-hammered?

1. I put Hectic because of his voting pattern, at the time it made sense to have clidd as a partner don't remember exactly what I was thinking.

2. I was willing to place a vote on clidd at the time

3. Then it would be 4-3 conftown and an unavoidable town win.

4. Hide the other scum in the pack of people off the lynch or its Clidd

If everyone thinks that clidd is cleared then this game is still an unavoidable town win.

I'm starting to think clidd is town

(Almost) unavoidable town win if everyone believes clidd is town only applies if he actually is town, which means you believe he's town. Your point (4) was dancing with the idea he was scum though. What makes you think that he's town now in the third post?

[Hectic]

Basically, having everyone else think clidd is town does not = him actually being town if you scumread him. So the unavoidable town win thing based on the logic is Doroish in a bad way (there are good Doroisms too, dw).

[Hectic]

Ame, Miami asked everything else I wanted to. Sorry if this feels like an interrogation, Doro; think of it as good cop, bad cop. (I'm the good one obviously so Ame's gonna need to start raging and pushing that caps lock key down soon).

[Hectic]

If Hectic's most recent scumgame is anything to go off of, he likes to distance from his partners and avoid drawing associations.

Oh no

, I have non-negligible scum data now. You know I'm just gonna flip my playstyle every scum game now though, right?

[Hectic]

Lul, alright. I'm not complaining

[Hectic]

Listen to me, Doro; I'm on

your

side here. Outside, there's people out there to get you that are capable of very bad things, but I REALLY do sympathise with you. If you help me; I can help you, and we'll get through this together, buddy.

[Hectic]

What, so you mean you think Somni self-hammered to make everyone on his wagon look good? Since that would imply there was no chance of him getting out it?

[Hectic]

But that does not change the fact that insomnia most likely wanted to get the potential lynch off his scum buddy and on to clidd.

Wait, what do you mean?
Is Somni trying to frame someone on or off his wagon? I thought you just implied the opposite.

[Hectic]

Sorry guys I'm pocketed now, whats the plan Hectic

Don't tell anyone else but I'm mason recruiter. I'll be targeting you tonight. Keep this on the down low.

[Hectic]

Of course I don't think you're the scum... I'm just asking you questions to find who actually IS the scum, pal

[Hectic]

If Hectic's most recent scumgame is anything to go off of, he likes to distance from his partners and avoid drawing associations.

Oh no

, I have non-negligible scum data now. You know I'm just gonna flip my playstyle every scum game now though, right?

I'd expect nothing less from you HecticMFHectic

You should do the same, AaronFF. Enter your next scum-game with some rage and a few deathtunnels. I won't tell anyone we had this discussion of course

[Hectic]

Woah, slamming the table like that was uncalled for, Ame. Wait, is that a steel chair??

Doro, I think it's more likely that Somni didn't see himself wriggling out of that one. Due to the lack of day chat, I think if we try to draw conclusions from it (which we probably shouldn't), it's more likely scum was off the wagon, and Somni didn't want his scum partner to potentially defend him and make them look really worse today. It's more likely than your theory imo, but it's dumb to look into it too much.

[Hectic]

I think insomnia probably hammered to avoid his partner giving away any more info, due to the lack of day chat, and maybe the partner trying to defend a lost cause which would make them look really bad today.
I think it actually points towards a couple of people more than others but I might be reading too much into it.

Who are the couple of people it points towards? I think it points towards you since you made a push to swing the wagon back to Karnage after I changed votes.

Everyone off-wagon, but if Karnage is actually second scum, that could explain why the situation was hopeless for him (only other counterwagon is also scum), if Karnage comes back and tries to defend Somni, that incriminates him.

[Hectic]

If you came back and defended him yesterday. Was talking about potential reasons for Somni self-hammering

[Hectic]

Where you at right now for Somni's partner?

[Hectic]

Clidd > Hectic > Aaron

I think it's more likely his partner was already on his wagon. Otherwise, why not give his partner a chance to come around and hammer. If his partner is Aaron or Hectic they just look bad. It doesn't make sense to leave them in that position.

Wait, hang on, why is Karnage not here? Didn't you think Wimpo was BSing, and thought AaronFF was obvtown?

[Hectic]

Karnage = Penguin.
Aaron = Fishy.
Ame = Bingle.
Hectic = Hectic.

Lul, and who are you equivalent to? Farren or yourself?

[Hectic]

Karnage, can you show us what you mean? Is it the voting insomnia towards EoD 1 you think looks like bussing? Or other votes?

[Hectic]

Doro, why are you being so evasive of Ame's questions, are they really that difficult to answer? We're supposed to get you out this in one piece.

Would like to see a shotgun reafs list from both Aaron and Karnage. Explanations aren't necessary but would be helpful; just want to see where they are for reads.

[Hectic]

How has Doro interacted with you in the neighbourhood, Ame? Have you felt like he's tried to pocket you?

I'd extend the same question to Doro (Do you think Ame was trying to pocket you in there?).

[Hectic]

I can tell you I had no idea that heighbors could be mafia, let me check the VC so I don't accidentally hammer you.

Lul, what. Could you paraphrase what it describes a neighbour/your neighbour to be in your role PM?

[Hectic]

Doro, what does it describe a neighbour as in your role PM, and how has Ame been talking to you in there?

[Hectic]

I'm trying to understand how you came to the conclusion that neighbours = masons. If you think 4 masons is unreasonable in a game, why weren't you suspicious of Luca/Flippo's Mason claims?

[Hectic]

I can tell you I had no idea that heighbors could be mafia, let me check the VC so I don't accidentally hammer you.

I thought you were saying you didn't think neighbours could be mafia here, which is the same thing as masons

[Hectic]

Ame was the first person to talk about our neighbor night PM and was also the one to say that I didn't know the difference between neighbor and mason. Why would I assume I am in a chat with someone on the opposite team.

This reads as kinda genuine honestly

[Hectic]

If there were 4 masons or neighbors then that wouldn't be much of a game.

So, you thought both you and Ame were town, and also think the above, so why did you believe Luca/Flippo's mason claim?

[Hectic]

What happened to your Doro scumread just now?

[Hectic]

Well, I agree with you there. The neighbourhood misunderstanding is so ridiculous to fake as scum.

Unsure why you think it's me over someone who feels like they've given up after a day 1 scumlynch (Karnage)

[Hectic]

Lul, I townread him and was wrong so what can you do. You think I'd have been obvious about it as that?

[Hectic]

Ame, you seem like you've flipped on who you want to lynch like 4 times today. You were happy for Doro until I started pointing out that he felt genuine, and clidd reinforced he found all of us towny.
I don't understand why you're suddenly bringing up my Wimpo push now and using it as a reason while it didn't seem to bother you earlier.

[Hectic]

I've seen more town than scum neighbourhoods but my sample size isn't large. Do you believe Doro's confusion about it, Karnage?

[Hectic]

You know what, let's give this a spin. VOTE: Ame

You've felt opportunistic today, Ame. I think you were hoping some of us would latch onto your Doro scumread with how you were pushing it earlier, but now choose to evaporate it into thin air when no one does.

[Hectic]

@clidd @dsj sheep me for win let's goooooo

God if you're town here

[Hectic]

Clidd > Hectic > Aaron

I think it's more likely his partner was already on his wagon. Otherwise, why not give his partner a chance to come around and hammer. If his partner is Aaron or Hectic they just look bad. It doesn't make sense to leave them in that position.

Lynch dsjstr. Too many inconsistencies.

Hectic is scum, let's end this.

Ame went from the first post, Aaron is 3rd most likely scum. Doro not even considered.
To second post, wanting to lynch Doro.
To third post. Doro scumread has evaporated. Hectic is scum. Aaron is obvtown and she's never voting him. (This is said in other posts)

That's a few too many flips. Feeling better about this than Karnage now.

[Hectic]

dsj wasn't online to vote neither was Karnage. If you could have convinced me to switch back to Karnage

Somni would have been saved

this is a fucking scum claim lol

@ame, why use "saved" here?

Hectic was trying to save Somni with that last minute case on you. He thought he could convince me to switch back to you. And had I did, either you would have been lynched or it would have been a NL (probably not though as Luca and flippy would switch over as well to avoid it)

This isn't true though. There were 5 people willing to Somni at the time (not including you). I don't do a last ditch attempt to save my scum buddy, why not try and help them much earlier in the day? I scumread Wimpo's play based on meta (and still do) so made my case.

Why are you only pushing me for this now, rather than bring it up previously today?

[Hectic]

Doro, Luca, Flippo, Clidd, Karnage had all expressed willingness to lynch Insomnia, so there were enough votes to lynch him before you voted him. Karnage and Doro are the ones that expressed it without voting, since you voting and Somni self-hammering meant they weren't needed. This is what I meant earlier when I said your vote had potential to be a bus but wasn't obvious.
If you're scum and the strat was to make it look like you were the swing, this is actually kinda interesting considering it does look like that if you don't take into account Doro/Karnage's stances. Not sure if that would be intentional though lul

[Hectic]

Wait a second I just noticed a contradiction:

You had literally not included me on any of your scum reads and the one time you said that it was me I changed your mind because you thought one of my comments was funny. You are the one being inconsistent.

dsj if you knew I was scumreading you before

why did you think neighbors were confirmed town to each other

? Surely you would have picked up that it wasn't the case from the way I was treating you?

Lul, I respect how cocky you are if you're scum. Unsure if I should be townreading or scumreading how you keep shifting attention/focus.

Coukd you explain why AaronFF was your third strongest scumread start of day and now seems to be your strongest townread?

[Hectic]

Well, yeah, I townread Somni and scumread Karnage's slot. I would've rather lynched Karnage at that stage. Why aren't you considering that I was just wrong?

[Hectic]

Sure, I'll take it.

Ame, so, reasoning for Aaron 3rd scum to what sounds like locktown? I know you've provided reasons but that's all day 1 stuff. What triggered you to reevaluate/see it in a different light?
Reason I'm asking is because I can see scum motivation in you TRing and trying to pocket Aaron since he earlier expressed he thinks everyone on the Somni wagon is town.

[Hectic]

I'm tired; disenaging for now. Gonna reevaluate Ame/Karnage again tomorrow and try and figure out if Ame is tunneling town or opportunistic scum.

[Hectic]

Yeah, probably a good idea. My proposed order is:
Karnage>AaronFF>Clidd>Hectic>Doro

I can go earlier if people disagree with my own placement.

[Hectic]

Karnage goes second last? grumble grumble

[Hectic]

Whatever, VT. Popcorn Karnage

[Hectic]

I think most games I've played with neighbourhoods have scum in them. I just believe Doro's townslip though. I mean, do you actually think that scum!Doro goes for the route where he pretends to think his neighbourhood was equivalent to a masonry? Maybe if insomnia coaches him to, but since they don't have daychat that's impossible.

[Hectic]

Let's all put out read lists. It's better to have everyone's stances out now rather than give scum the opportunity to lynch whatever's easy without having to flip on reads.

I'm at:
Doro
Clidd
Aaron
Karnage

[Hectic]

Karnage, give me some thoughts please. You've had no reaction to your top scumread flipping town. Like, what's changed for you?

You said this earlier: Ame > Dsjstr > AaronFrost > Hectic = clidd

Is this still the case with Ame cut out, and then why Doro next?

[Hectic]

Ok yeah moving clidd up to my top scumread if you flip town.

PEDIT: Cooooool

Yeah actually I'm really feeling clidd!scum here. His reads have been so inconsistent today and he's just been all over the place.

PEDIT: Hi, native english speaker from the States here. In English, "they" is typically used as a gender neutral pronoun, which can definitely be strange if you don't know the language well. It is technically incorrect since "they" is usually referring to a group of people, but people also use it gender neutrally. English is a weird language man.

Vanilla Townie. Popcorn Hectic

Why'd you popcorn me given you were talking about clidd being scum if Ame flipped town?

[Hectic]

Clidd, given you thought Ame and I were TvS, why is AaronFF still your top scum over me right now?

[Hectic]

Wimpo subbing out is 100% not a town-indicator, he's subbed out of literally every game I've played with him in (as scum and town).

[Hectic]

So you, me, Karnage and Flippy will be alive, They will kill between Hectic/Aaron.

Considering Hectic is scum, Aaron dies. If Aaron scum, Hectic dies.

Could you explain what you meant here? Aaron and I are unconfirmed and potential lynches for scum. Why would scum ever not kill the confirmed town (Emperor Flippo)?

[Hectic]

Wimpo subbing out is 100% not a town-indicator, he's subbed out of literally every game I've played with him in (as scum and town).

Do you have a link to these games ?

I'll go look for them

[Hectic]

He replaced out 3 times in his last 4 games:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=82026
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81277
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81747

he was scum in 1, town in 2.

[Hectic]

So you, me, Karnage and Flippy will be alive, They will kill between Hectic/Aaron.

Considering Hectic is scum, Aaron dies. If Aaron scum, Hectic dies.

Could you explain what you meant here? Aaron and I are unconfirmed and potential lynches for scum. Why would scum ever not kill the confirmed town (Emperor Flippo)?

Look at Flippy's interactions and tell me if he influenced something in the past day. It would be wiser to kill vocal antagonists if the game goes on for lylo.

But Flippo is someone who can never be lynched, so it's still 1 less viable mislynch. Meaning, if scum leaves him till 3 player LyLo for example, the scum has to get exactly the person who isn't Flippo lynched. Do you agree?

[Hectic]

Remind me again why you scumread,Aaron? If you've given a case before, could you link it please? Also, could you give an ordered reads list like I did earlier?

[Hectic]

He replaced out 3 times in his last 4 games:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=82026
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81277
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81747

he was scum in 1, town in 2.

Hum, so my emotional argument has no absolute validity.

Yup, I've been saying this for a while

[Hectic]

- insomnia pressured myself and Ame early on. I think in a setup with no daychat, it's possible that scum would fake pressure on their partner if they disapproved of their posting. This is something that should be discussed imo.
- He later turned the reads on both of us into townreads. Read into this how you will, but I'm trying to figure scum!somni's motivation for turning his reads around like that. I think he was trying to pocket me, but could his turn around on Ame indicate partnership?

This is real bad. Dang I misread both Somni and Aaron this game and fought Luca over it xD? Thank god Luca was so persistent.

Why on earth do you think you and insomnia being potential buddies is "something that should be talked about"
And then you think somnis motivation for his switch could be indicative of his partner when you know it's not the case with yourself?

That doesn't hold up. From a town Aaron point of view, there is no value in everyone discussing the idea that the way Insomnia treated you could indicate you're buddies.

Exactly, you know your alignment, but you're speculating that Insomnia's actions could point to scumYou.

I think you're trying to play the part of the objective townie who isn't afraid to be talked about, but if you were town what you're saying wouldn't make any sense.

Again, as a preemptive defense. I think you were self aware of it and wanted get ahead of it by being objective to induce the thought "Aaron is being open about this, therefore it must not be the case."

You know your alignment and I'm your strongest town read, but somehow you thought people should look into the possibility that Somni's interaction with us was partner indicative. This simply doesn't hold up as a townAaron PoV.

You know your alignment so you should know the theory that Somni-making-a-push-then-reversing-his-read = partner is wrong.

As scum, however, you know that it isn't wrong and therefore felt you should get ahead of it.

Oh, I forgot about this lul. AaronFF, can you address 1395 and 1396? I agree with Ame that I don't get why you bring something up which has no use to you if you're town, but only helps others consider you as scum. Feels like you're being too open and looking like you're trying to consider all scenarios.

[Hectic]

Karnage, give me some thoughts please. You've had no reaction to your top scumread flipping town. Like, what's changed for you?

You said this earlier: Ame > Dsjstr > AaronFrost > Hectic = clidd

Is this still the case with Ame cut out, and then why Doro next?

I think dsjstr=scum is the most likely solve right now. its more like a coin toss between aaron and clidd now

Can you point to where you think Doro's confusion about the neighbours not being all town is fake? I'm struggling to see why he takes that approach as scum

[Hectic]

Karnage, give me some thoughts please. You've had no reaction to your top scumread flipping town. Like, what's changed for you?

You said this earlier: Ame > Dsjstr > AaronFrost > Hectic = clidd

Is this still the case with Ame cut out, and then why Doro next?

I think dsjstr=scum is the most likely solve right now. its more like a coin toss between aaron and clidd now

Can you point to where you think Doro's confusion about the neighbours not being all town is fake? I'm struggling to see why he takes that approach as scum

Mind answering this Karnage?

[Hectic]

I think most games I've played with neighbourhoods have scum in them. I just believe Doro's townslip though. I mean, do you actually think that scum!Doro goes for the route where he pretends to think his neighbourhood was equivalent to a masonry? Maybe if insomnia coaches him to, but since they don't have daychat that's impossible.

Where was this "townslip"?

It's based on what Ame said where he thought both neighbours were town (equivalent to masons). If Doro is scum and was trying (and failing) to pocket Ame in the neighbourhood, maybe he employs this confusion strat where he says "oh, I just assumed neighbours were always town", but I think it's far more likely he was acutally just confused about how they worked based on his experience with mafia so far (no offence, Doro).

[Hectic]

Ame agreed with me on this one, and she was actually his neighbour so probably has a better read on it than any of us.

[Hectic]

Oh, I forgot about this lul. AaronFF, can you address 1395 and 1396? I agree with Ame that I don't get why you bring something up which has no use to you if you're town, but only helps others consider you as scum. Feels like you're being too open and looking like you're trying to consider all scenarios.

Yeah you just kinda answered your own question HecticMFHectic. I was trying to consider every angle and find out what the most likely scenario is. I even mentioned that is wasn't likely and was upset when Ame got lynched while I was catching up.

I get considering every scenario, but why consider a scenario which only involves you being scum - which you should know to be false?

[Hectic]

Hey HecticMFHectic, talk to me about this.

Like how likely is it that we have two town masons and two town neighbors? Scum would have to have like a PT cop or a traffic analyst to counter that.

dsj are you just a town neighbor or are you something else on top of that?

Yeah, I'd be very surprised if it was two mafia goons. I don't think two masons and two neighbours are balanced. But it depends on Doro's alignment. 2 neighbours are overall good for mafia I think if one of the neighbours is scum, but bad for them if both neighbours are town, because apparently most scum neighbourhoods result in scum pocketing their neighbour.

Since I think Doro is town, last scum maybe as rolecop or PT cop like you said? Why do you want to talk about this?

[Hectic]

Ok yeah moving clidd up to my top scumread if you flip town.

PEDIT: Cooooool

Which are your reads now ?

Scummiest to Towniest

dsj > clidd > Karnage > Hectic. Not super confident in this at the moment, but that's where I'm at.

That was more of a snap reaction to you hammering Ame, but also I do think it gives you +scum equity.

AaronFFFF, why did you popcorn me to claim over any of the other 3 given these reads?

[Hectic]

Still feels like it's Karnage, he's just not doing enough and kinda feels like semi-defeated scum right now. I've played with town!Karnage once before and he did more than this, though his tone was similar in the way he just feels apathetic I guess. But in addition to the weird hard tunnel from Wimpo which he actually talked about being one of his go to scum strats in another game means this is the best vote right now.

VOTE: Karnage

[Hectic]

Why can't the ragequit come from scum? And AaronFF said it earlier, he replaced out both games at once (the other one was scum) so it's probably NAI.

[Hectic]

I will try and take some time today to devote to the game in the meantime.

Please do this at some point

[Hectic]

I think most games I've played with neighbourhoods have scum in them. I just believe Doro's townslip though. I mean, do you actually think that scum!Doro goes for the route where he pretends to think his neighbourhood was equivalent to a masonry? Maybe if insomnia coaches him to, but since they don't have daychat that's impossible.

Where was this "townslip"?

It's based on what Ame said where he thought both neighbours were town (equivalent to masons). If Doro is scum and was trying (and failing) to pocket Ame in the neighbourhood, maybe he employs this confusion strat where he says "oh, I just assumed neighbours were always town", but I think it's far more likely he was acutally just confused about how they worked based on his experience with mafia so far (no offence, Doro).

Hmm okay. Not sure I buy that as a true townslip, but I need to revisit dsj based on his play.

Which do you think is more likely setup-wise?

1) 2 town neighbors, 2 town masons, 1 scum PT cop
or
2) 2 town masons, 1 town neighbor and 1 scum neighbor

No idea; I'm not the one to ask for setup design/spec. They both seem kinda balanced to me.

[Hectic]

Oh, I forgot about this lul. AaronFF, can you address 1395 and 1396? I agree with Ame that I don't get why you bring something up which has no use to you if you're town, but only helps others consider you as scum. Feels like you're being too open and looking like you're trying to consider all scenarios.

Yeah you just kinda answered your own question HecticMFHectic. I was trying to consider every angle and find out what the most likely scenario is. I even mentioned that is wasn't likely and was upset when Ame got lynched while I was catching up.

I get considering every scenario, but why consider a scenario which only involves you being scum - which you should know to be false?

Could you answer this, AaronFF? THis is the biggest problem I have with you right now, I just want to understand your reasoning behind this from a town PoV

[Hectic]

Im thinking.

What if Aaron was not framed by insomnia ?

I'm overthinking too much about how voracious Insomnia defended him. But, definitely, he would seem extremely suspicious with the argument against Luca, so even if Luca was lynched, Insomnia would be linked to Aaron the next day, so it would be quicker to conclude that the two were partners. This scenario would not make sense, considering the motivation of the deathtunnel was to distort possible reads about Aaron from then on.

It may be strange, but I would say that the latest

scum

, considering all my current impressions, would no longer point to

Dsj

, but to

AaronFrost

.

My intuition says that Aaron is scum, considering that the 4 of us engaged here today and he just disappeared 5 or 6 pages ago.

Still .. Ame being

scum

still doesn't get into my head. Aaron being AFK in this game in the last pages would agree with my theory of him being

scum

.

What I feel for Aaron is a departure from this second stage of the game, so I intuitively put him as a scum, if Dsj is town.

So your reasoning for Aaron!scum is a mixture of him being inactive recently, him being off the wagon, and intuition? Could you try and elaborate on your intuition or point to specifics?

[Hectic]

I probably die tonight if we lynch incorrectly. My reads right now are still: Karnage>AaronFF>Clidd>Doro

[Hectic]

V/LA until 29th

[Hectic]

Hmmmm

[Hectic]

So the thing is Doro, if you're actually scum, there's no way you ever kill me last night with how I'm townreading you, and the clidd-kill does make Aaron look even worse because clidd was death tunnelled on Aaron

[Hectic]

Nah, I shouldn't overthink this lol. It's like 90% Aaron but I'll do my due diligence and reread stuff

[Hectic]

lol I thought clidd could have been the mafia, well if it's Hectic we are in trouble

Why clidd for scum?

Also, why'd you hammer early without intent yesterday?

[Hectic]

Nah, I shouldn't overthink this lol. It's like 90% Aaron but I'll do my due diligence and reread stuff

OK, maybe more like 80% Aaron

[Hectic]

VOTE: AaronFF
VOTE: Doro
VOTE: Hectic
UNVOTE: Hectic

Don't mind me; just hammer testing.

[Hectic]

AaronFF:

Hypothetically speaking, if you were scum, who would you kill last night?

Were you online to see Karnage's catchup? Did it look towny or scummy to you?

Due to

recent events

, I'm thinking you focusing on mechanics too much like in 1513 might be scum-indicative. Can you tell me what conclusions you've drawn from talking about this, and which you think is more likely now? Why didn't you consider a scenario where there could be a Mafia Neighbour PT Cop/Rolecop?

[Hectic]

I want to consider all avenues here; we have the time.

[Hectic]

So the thing is Doro, if you're actually scum, there's no way you ever kill me last night with how I'm townreading you, and the clidd-kill does make Aaron look even worse because clidd was death tunnelled on Aaron

Clidd was also town reading me, and from my understanding Aaron was town reading you.

If it is you then Aaron and myself would not even consider you, in your last scum game you used the tactic of trying to get the town to fight with each other.

If you were scum, who would you kill, if not clidd then?

[Hectic]

I had scum read Karnage because it sounded like he was just making stuff up, do I do the same thing and go for Hectic?

So the thing is Doro, if you're actually scum, there's no way you ever kill me last night with how I'm townreading you, and the clidd-kill does make Aaron look even worse because clidd was death tunnelled on Aaron

You are saying that this only makes you look the best?

Once again trying to get Aaron and myself to fight

Lul, you're overthinking this. It's 3 player LyLo so I'm going to question everything I can to make the best decision possible. I think it's very likely Aaron, mostly based on your slip because of the neighbourhood thing, but I'm still gonna question both of you to make sure.

[Hectic]

Doro, if you're town, please don't be paranoid because I'm questioning you. I'm not entering today with the scum mindset of making myself look towny as possible in your eyes and achieving a lynch on Aaron. I'm entering with the mindset of questioning everything scummy I can find about both you and Aaron so I can make the best possible decision today

[Hectic]

Lul, the "pocketing" on Doro was me RPing good cop, bad cop with Ame while questioning him.

My reasoning for townreading Doro's hood slip is as follows:
-It's a very strange route to choose for a newbie scum player, it's suicidal on the surface and requires a lot of confidence to sell. Doro didn't give me that impression with his scumgame in Wolf Among Us.
-Somni couldn't have coached him to do it without daychat.
-Ame also seemed convinced Doro was town, and she was actually the one in the hood with him.

I guess I shouldn't define it as a "slip". It's basically just something I see which is very unlikely to come from scum.

What are you currently at for me/Doro as scum percentage-wise, AaronFF?

[Hectic]

1) I'd kill you and try to push clidd since dsj would probably be more likely to mislynch him over you.

This... does make some sense actually. I'm confused why you bring Doro and I into LyLo who townread each other. Or you're bathing us in WIFOM grumble grumble

[Hectic]

Lul, why haven't you commited your GiF-indicative towntells yet?

In an average game, every GiF you post makes me townread you 2% more.

[Hectic]

I can tell you I had no idea that heighbors could be mafia, let me check the VC so I don't accidentally hammer you.

Here he admits that he didn't know neighbors could be scum and assumed it was the same thing as masons.

I never said mason = neighbor that is what Ame said.

Ame was the first person to talk about our neighbor night PM and was also the one to say that I didn't know the difference between neighbor and mason. Why would I assume I am in a chat with someone on the opposite team.

Found the inconsistencies.

In these he's saying that Ame was the one who thought that the neighbors = masons, when it's clear that he didn't know either (or was faking not knowing). He was trying to twist it onto Ame and ended up getting her lynched.

I think I asked him about what he thought was the difference between mason and neighbour and he replied to me with something which didn't raise alarm bells; too lazy to check now, but I will reexamine all of the stuff that happened around that time at some point tomorrow.

Might be a weird question, Doro, but do you think as scum you have the ability to go for this strat of faking not knowing the difference between neighbours and masons?

[Hectic]

Prepare for 50 gifs then

Do it. I dare you.

[Hectic]

In these he's saying that Ame was the one who thought that the neighbors = masons, when it's clear that he didn't know either (or was faking not knowing). He was trying to twist it onto Ame and ended up getting her lynched.

Wait a second, are you saying Doro was trying to say Ame was the one confused by masons=neighbours??
I thought he was talking about himself when he made that post, as in, Ame was the one that said that

he

thought masons=neighbours

[Hectic]

I never said mason = neighbor that is what Ame said.

Ame was the first person to talk about our neighbor night PM and was also the one to say that I didn't know the difference between neighbor and mason. Why would I assume I am in a chat with someone on the opposite team.

Based on 1215, I think you're either misunderstanding 1213 or trying to manipulate how it looks. It looks to me like Doro was talking about Ame's interpretation of what he thought.

If I'm not getting what you mean by inconsistency, please help me understand. Calling it a night for now.

[Hectic]

Hectic why did you decide to talk about reasons why Aaron and myself should fight with each other

I don't think you are trying to solve anything, just trying to get us to fight, Aaron I can continue to tell you why you are wrong but I would rather go with hectic

He wanted to know why I did not respond to his second group of messages, lol you are actually trying to prove that Ame is a liar not me

I don't understand this at all. How have I tried to make you fight each other? All I've done is ask you both questions so I can sort you.

Please explain what you mean by the third line. I'm trying to prove Ame is a liar rather than you?

[Hectic]

He has literally only provided responses that has continued this argument

I am giving intent to place my vote on Hectic

If you're town, you are really misunderstanding my intentions when I'm interacting with Aaron. Aaron believes you're scum for the nieghbourhood thing, I thought you were town for it. So it's useful for me to debate it with Aaron and see if his doubt comes from a genuine place. Do you really believe I'm trying to actually

convince

Aaron of you being scum

while

defending you? I'm really struggling to understand how you arrive at this conclusion.

grumble grumble you've made this game a whole lot harder if you're town.

[Hectic]

I am giving intent to place my vote on Hectic

We lose instantly if you vote me and you're town. Please don't rush a vote when we have 6 days of discussion left.

[Hectic]

Should I just place my vote on Aaron now or does anyone have anything else to say

How did your stance change from being so certain Aaron was scum here, to giving intent to vote me?

[Hectic]

I never said mason = neighbor that is what Ame said.

Ame was the first person to talk about our neighbor night PM and was also the one to say that I didn't know the difference between neighbor and mason. Why would I assume I am in a chat with someone on the opposite team.

Based on 1215, I think you're either misunderstanding 1213 or trying to manipulate how it looks. It looks to me like Doro was talking about Ame's interpretation of what he thought.

If I'm not getting what you mean by inconsistency, please help me understand. Calling it a night for now.

Like, how do you get the impression I'm not solving and am "trying to make you fight" with this post?

I'd think you're scum for this, but it's so weird for scum!you to do this while I still thought it was Aaron as scum over you. Unless you think I'm coming round to townreading Aaron somehow, and so you're scumreading me early? Or you're trying to win AaronFF's trust with the logic of "Why would scum!Doro make that play?"?

[Hectic]

AaronFF:

Hypothetically speaking, if you were scum, who would you kill last night?

Were you online to see Karnage's catchup? Did it look towny or scummy to you?

Due to

recent events

, I'm thinking you focusing on mechanics too much like in 1513 might be scum-indicative. Can you tell me what conclusions you've drawn from talking about this, and which you think is more likely now? Why didn't you consider a scenario where there could be a Mafia Neighbour PT Cop/Rolecop?

1) I'd kill you and try to push clidd since dsj would probably be more likely to

mislynch

him over you.

2) No I still haven't read it tbh, I want to go back and do that to see what his strongest reads were and who was pushing him.

3) I thought talking about it might help me figure out/rule out a potential scum candidate, and I think dsj surviving last night points towards him being a scum neighbor. Mafia Neighbor PT Cop seems kind of redundant to me but idk.

Look at the word I underlined, this seems like a confession to me

But asking what we would do as scum is a leading question

Also, you were just appealing to me here that AaronFF "confessed" by using the word mislynch. I hadn't posted since this post, and now you're giving intent to vote me? Can you explain your progression of who you were scumreading/townreading throughout today and what's changed that?

Sorry for all the questions, but it'd really help if you answered all of them and for the love of Doro don't vote me yet.

[Hectic]

Leading questions... what who would you have killed if you were mafia and why?

If you're asking me why I ask those hypothetical questions; it's because you can catch scum out if they try and lie about it and say something inconsistent with others' reads.

If you're asking me: I would've killed you as scum. Clidd was death tunneled onto Aaron, and can be impulsive when it comes to voting, so there's a good chance I could quickhammer relatively early.

[Hectic]

Hectic if everyone town read you for really no reason at all why are you still alive?

Do you expect me to have an answer to this? I'm trying to figure this out myself. I've thought about scum!Aaron killing Clidd because Clidd was probably gonna hard push him today.
And scum!you killing Clidd because I townread you and Aaron was my next pick for scum after Karnage.

If we're talking night kill analysis, the kill makes you scummier than Aaron, since Aaron is correct in that a kill on me makes more sense from his perspective, since he could at least convince you to vote Clidd, even if Clidd is scumreading Aaron.

[Hectic]

Should I just place my vote on Aaron now or does anyone have anything else to say

How did your stance change from being so certain Aaron was scum here, to giving intent to vote me?

AaronFF:

Hypothetically speaking, if you were scum, who would you kill last night?

Were you online to see Karnage's catchup? Did it look towny or scummy to you?

Due to

recent events

, I'm thinking you focusing on mechanics too much like in 1513 might be scum-indicative. Can you tell me what conclusions you've drawn from talking about this, and which you think is more likely now? Why didn't you consider a scenario where there could be a Mafia Neighbour PT Cop/Rolecop?

1) I'd kill you and try to push clidd since dsj would probably be more likely to

mislynch

him over you.

2) No I still haven't read it tbh, I want to go back and do that to see what his strongest reads were and who was pushing him.

3) I thought talking about it might help me figure out/rule out a potential scum candidate, and I think dsj surviving last night points towards him being a scum neighbor. Mafia Neighbor PT Cop seems kind of redundant to me but idk.

Look at the word I underlined, this seems like a confession to me

But asking what we would do as scum is a leading question

Also, you were just appealing to me here that AaronFF "confessed" by using the word mislynch. I hadn't posted since this post, and now you're giving intent to vote me? Can you explain your progression of who you were scumreading/townreading throughout today and what's changed that?

Sorry for all the questions, but it'd really help if you answered all of them and for the love of Doro don't vote me yet.

Answer these please.

[Hectic]

for really no reason at all

You're shading me here by implying people were townreading me for stupid reasons, correct?
Why were you townreading me start of day then?

[Hectic]

Ugh, LyLos are the worst. I don't think I've ever won one. You've done a fantastic job of making me thing you're scum, Doro. I've gone from 80/20 to basically 50/50. I know that looks fencesitty but that's genuinely where I'm at right now.

[Hectic]

Lul, I was here for that Doro

[Hectic]

Promise I won't quickhammer, still thinking about whether that uncertainty was faked or not

[Hectic]

Hang on, I'm gonna compile some questions for you because your last bout of posts before this rang some major alarm bells honestly

[Hectic]

Lul, I was here for that Doro

bummer you were a few minutes late

Nah, there was a small time frame where I refreshed and saw the vote before you unvoted. I know saying this serves nothing and there's no way to prove it, but I'm just saying

[Hectic]

1) Why were you townreading me start of day, what did you mean that "everyone townread me for no reason at all"? Were your reasons for townreading me different to others'?
2) What exactly did you mean by "hammer test" in 1623? Were you asking me to vote Aaron there? What would Aaron being offline achieve there?
3) Aaron already asked about your 1619; appreciate an answer to that.

Be back later

[Hectic]

Lul, I was here for that Doro

bummer you were a few minutes late

Nah, there was a small time frame where I refreshed and saw the vote before you unvoted. I know saying this serves nothing and there's no way to prove it, but I'm just saying

Refreshed?

Like you went to hammer and you got a preview that I immediately unvoted?

Lul, I was here for that Doro

bummer you were a few minutes late

Nah, there was a small time frame where I refreshed and saw the vote before you unvoted. I know saying this serves nothing and there's no way to prove it, but I'm just saying

Why bring this up?

I just happened to refresh and saw the vote alone while I was helping my friend with some work. I know it's pointless but I just felt like bringing it up. I should've posted as soon as I saw the vote to confirm myself but alas

[Hectic]

1) Why were you townreading me start of day, what did you mean that "everyone townread me for no reason at all"? Were your reasons for townreading me different to others'?
2) What exactly did you mean by "hammer test" in 1623? Were you asking me to vote Aaron there? What would Aaron being offline achieve there?
3) Aaron already asked about your 1619; appreciate an answer to that.

Be back later

1) Why are you town? Did anyone actually give a reason to town read you? If everyone was town reading you why are you alive?
2) If I placed a vote on Aaron and you did not hammer you would be confirmed as a town or vise versa
3)If you don't scum read aaron then just vote for me...

1) Why were

you

specifically townreading me is what I'm asking.
2) What purpose does that achieve rather than voting normally when you think someone is scum? It reads to me as if you were trying to convince me to vote Aaron so you could quickhammer.

[Hectic]

I'm massively overgamed right now and really want to make a decision today or tomorrow, since I'm V/LAish after that. Do you two mind staying online and figuring this out tonight please?

[Hectic]

lol I thought clidd could have been the mafia, well if it's Hectic we are in trouble

Should I just place my vote on Aaron now or does anyone have anything else to say

Doro townreads me here. Is appealing to vote Aaron with me immediately.

So the thing is Doro, if you're actually scum, there's no way you ever kill me last night with how I'm townreading you, and the clidd-kill does make Aaron look even worse because clidd was death tunnelled on Aaron

You are saying that this only makes you look the best?

Once again trying to get Aaron and myself to fight

Starts shading me and no longer seems to townread me once I start questioning him.

AaronFF:

Hypothetically speaking, if you were scum, who would you kill last night?

Were you online to see Karnage's catchup? Did it look towny or scummy to you?

Due to

recent events

, I'm thinking you focusing on mechanics too much like in 1513 might be scum-indicative. Can you tell me what conclusions you've drawn from talking about this, and which you think is more likely now? Why didn't you consider a scenario where there could be a Mafia Neighbour PT Cop/Rolecop?

1) I'd kill you and try to push clidd since dsj would probably be more likely to

mislynch

him over you.

2) No I still haven't read it tbh, I want to go back and do that to see what his strongest reads were and who was pushing him.

3) I thought talking about it might help me figure out/rule out a potential scum candidate, and I think dsj surviving last night points towards him being a scum neighbor. Mafia Neighbor PT Cop seems kind of redundant to me but idk.

Look at the word I underlined, this seems like a confession to me

But asking what we would do as scum is a leading question

Once again appeals to me by trying to paint the wording of "mislynch" as a confession.

He has literally only provided responses that has continued this argument

I am giving intent to place my vote on Hectic

I don't take the bait, so now he instead appeals to Aaron, declaring intent to vote me.

do you want to hammer test?

I see Aaron has not been talking so now seems like a good time

Literally a few posts later, he has gone from giving intent to voting me to instead wanting to "hammer test" with me to confirm each other as town, and Aaron as scum.

Unhappy to roll scum, eh, Aaron?

Could you imagine if we got it here

Once again, trying to appeal to me.

You two fight it out now

I'm getting my popcorn ready

Don't need to explain why this raises massive alarm bells.

My gut is still telling me its Hectic

Basically, I think Doro continuously trying to appeal to me that Aaron is scum and "confessing" or "imagine we got it here" does not line up or make sense with how he's at the same time saying I'm scum or is giving intent to vote me. I think he's flip flopping between us and seeing who'll bite and be the first to vote the other.

I'm probably voting Doro now unless something drastic changes. His neighbourhood confusion can come from scum if he's ballsy enough to do what he's been doing today as scum, so eh. No offence, Doro but you've kinda thrown here if I'm right lul

[Hectic]

I have to leave for now I'll be on later tonight tho (EST)

FeelsBad, when's that gonna be?

[Hectic]

Lul, there it is. You've earnt this victory if you're scum, AaronFF, but I doubt it at this point

VOTE: Doro

I think Doro's frustration is actually genuine right now but stems from how I went from townreading him start of day to thinking he's now scum.