Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Klick]

Welcome to the most fun Mafia setup that there is. I'm Klick, the Mason. My partners can reveal if they wish.

VOTE: Alduskkel
Rebellion was flawed and far worse than the original series, but still definitely worth watching

[Klick]

Chemist what's your setup familiarity?

[Klick]

does that make your mason partners the klick clique

Klique**

VOTE: Klick

State your name and purpose here!

Klick
M, 22
Mostly just here for the dank setup tbh

ur turn
PEdit: why do you post so much?

[Klick]

Klick why did you specifically ask Chemist (and not any other player) about his familiarity with the setup?

His first post seemed like he was in tune with the setup yet I've never seen a game of this setup with him in it. Wasn't sure if it ran in some marathon weekends that I missed. I'm also more familiar with Chemist than the rest of this list.

[Klick]

I would have worked with you pretty much immediately if I'd gotten the chance to in TRTWIUAA rip

[Klick]

one post reads are generally not a good idea in my experience

Town

[Klick]

@mod

can you delete that post?

I’ll say Auro is Town.

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy
Nah I'm not buying this read

[Klick]

I mean, of course you'd say that
What about it is town-indicative? You said yourself that it was obviously fake.

[Klick]

It's not clear to me that the read isn't serious. But also, the read can't be both serious and memeing.
It's ambiguous and I'd like to hear what TSE has to say about it. I can see your logic but I'm not convinced it's where town!TSE would go in their logic.

[Klick]

It's not clear to me that the read isn't serious. But also, the read can't be both serious and memeing.
It's ambiguous and I'd like to hear what TSE has to say about it. I can see your logic but I'm not convinced it's where town!TSE would go in their logic.

Overtime Auro’s Alignment will be more clear for me.
As for RN I’ll consider him Town.

Make sense?

A claim like this has no value. I still don't get WHY you're considering Auro town. What I'm questioning is how you came to that conclusion. That fact that you still haven't given a straight answer to that is suspect.

Yeah I think there’s actually more value for VTs to inflate their townreads as a sort of mason cover

If you can justify a strong townread on someone and get the scum to believe you’re masons and shoot you, that outs a scum and clears a town

This is also likely to backfire now that it has been pointed out.

Hopefully the masons are able to accurately disguise each other just fine.

Basically this. The theory discussion is a big distraction. This setup requires a good amount of town deception and that's as far as we need to go into that rabbit hole.
Yshtola is town

[Klick]

I will admire this wagon from a distance.

[Klick]

VOTE: TSE

I’m not buying your Auro town read. Anyone could have easily said what Auro said regardless of alignment.

Auro, in post 85 you defended TSE by saying you thought TSE was just memeing, but post 90 makes it clear that’s not the case. Does this change your read at all?

It’s weak but I’m considering his reaction Town for now.
That’s what I’m saying.

Hello! As I asked several times earlier, could you explain why you think this?

[Klick]

Chemist what's your setup familiarity?

with this one?

I read the wiki page

What's the purpose of this question? You're veering dangerously close to an RQS scumtell which seems to be becoming a thing in recent meta.

I'm assuming this is to me? I think I've already answered this

[Klick]

@Auro

Something that bothers me is Klick said the following:

one post reads are generally not a good idea in my experience

Town

And didn’t give my read on you a pass.

Makes me think they are probably scum.

Fwiw this was 100% a troll response, I don't have a read on Chem yet

[Klick]

UNVOTE:
I actually kinda like the exchange between TSE and Ald for TSE. He still hasn't clearly explained why he gave the Auro townread, but 147 explains it in a way that I kinda get and pushing further on it doesn't feel productive.at a baby group, I'll have a think about where my vote should go when I'm back.

[Klick]

Hiya pops

@Cheeky: Can you tell me what you think of Homura?

[Klick]

I'm not particularly interested in pursuing any of Yshtola/TSE/Auro/Cheeky today.

VOTE: Homura

[Klick]

Note to self: I was on Page 8 before this game doubled in size overnight

Checking this later

[Klick]

Quick response to Cheeky: in Homura's early content I'm seeing a lot of the things you were accusing me of, so I'm surprised you didn't see it.

[Klick]

I'm not particularly interested in pursuing any of Yshtola/TSE/Auro/Cheeky today.

VOTE: Homura

What did you think of Cheeky's read on you?

It reads genuine to me and she's probably town for it. I'm aware I'm slowrolling a little with my thoughts in this game, and that's by choice. My approach to this game is (pretty transparently) going to be giving broad strokes of my townreads and focused pushes. So what she's picking up on is valid, but not a scumtell.

[Klick]

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Up until this post the only scumread you've expressed is Alduskkel.



PEdit: Hello!
I'm not interested in those four today for a combination of reading them as town and liking how they're influencing the gamestate.
I got pretty strong town vibes off of Yshtola's Post 92 and like where she's going with things in general. With Auro I don't really have anything specific off the top of my head, but I feel like he's pushing this game in the right direction. If he keeps doing what he's doing I feel like it will benefit town in the long run, even if he winds up having a scum Role PM.

[Klick]

I find myself skimming over most of Egix's posts without being able to commit much critical thinking to them. I've found in the past that that slot is scum >rand for me.

[Klick]

<.<
>.>
Is it bad that I want to scumread you Auro?

If you'll forgive my personal biases... no, not at all.

VOTE: Homura
I think this and Miss Lynch both have decent chances of being scum.

Chemist, your accusation of TSE is unfair, he was pressed for reasoning and *then* said he thought I was VT over scum because of the "slip". I don't see why town shouldn't distinguish between Masons and VTs in their sorting process. I feel like you made up a reason to sit on TSE's wagon.

I’d feel this way too but Let’s just say me and Chemist have “History”

He honestly would just place a vote on me for any reason just for the sack of getting rid of me.

If someone said “PL TSE”
He would join that vote.

Let me guess, you once dunked on him so hard it made him never want to trust you again?

And yet I'm finding your tone more stiff.

*shrug* I think my tone's always like this Anything else that makes you want to scumread me?

Idk, I remember you once saying that people find your tone to be more "frozen" when you're scum. Old news?

I'm townreading a lot of the active posters, primarily.
Homura is coasting on the TSE attack.
Miss Lynch's opening posts are scummy, she "skims" the game and votes Aldusskel without any explanation.

My play might not match your expectations of my townplay, by the way - I'm a lot less serious about this game

What's scummy about that? Solid reasoning for Alk has already been given, I don't like how you're trying to frame "skimming the game" as something scummy to do.

Does using the tiger skin really make it so bad such that

seven pages

is an amount you don't have time to read at normal speed? Afaict the issue here is that people are expecting you to have had no need to just skim it all.

@Pops: Not quoting your post because it would be a pain to trim down on this device, but I'm curious as to how you interpreted my "in a nutshell" comment. What I meant is that I have historically had a high rate of randing scum in Open games.

Like I'm not getting a thing from this.

[Klick]

Pops I don't see a clear read on Auro from you?

I read through pops' catchup like five times trying to understand his progression on Auro, because there was a lot of talk about the read without any clear conclusion. But then I couldn't work out if that meant anything so I decided to just move on and read his other posts.

[Klick]

I think the Alduskel vs. Miss Lynch interaction has an SvT look and I hope soberpops can sort which side when she is done chastising drunkpops's staying up late

This is about where I land in parsing that conversation, though I'd throw Auro in as well and say there was one scum keeping that interaction going. The Miss Lynch meta conversation went on for entirely too long with very little benefit and I feel like one person involved was intentionally keeping it going. On the surface of it, Miss Lynch come off as anti-town for going on about why she doesn't want to explain her reads for way too long - but then that doesn't necessarily mean she's scum there. Auro is antagonistic towards her in a way that seems uncharacteristic and also not very helpful at all. Looking at it, I think Aldus comes off the best of the three: he goes in trying to get info from ML, quickly realises that it's not working, and mostly stops responding/attempts to deescalate.

So I guess I'd peg ML/Auro as the likely SvT, not ML/Aldus.

[Klick]

Also I really enjoy that while all three of them are arguing about nothing Yshtola and pops are able to just completely ignore them and have their own off-topic conversation. I especially like the part where Yshtola gives townreads on Auro/ML without feeding the flame with either of them.

[Klick]

Auro has been defensive venom

:O

{Lot of (scummy?) words with little substance} is still where I'm at regarding her, I'm finding it difficult to search for meaning in her posts and think she's a fine lynch.

Ugh I'm having trouble seeing Auro decide it's a good idea as town to post this shortly after reading Aldus' post about ML making the game toxic.

[Klick]

104 - I find it a little bit odd that Klick seemed openly indifferent towards the Teeky wagon although TSE, whom Klick was voting at the time, was on there. I feel as though Klick would be more opposed to the wagon in that case.

I'm confused by this point. Could you explain it in a different way?

I think I'll keep my vote where it is for now.

[Klick]

PEdit: Hello!
I'm not interested in those four today for a combination of reading them as town and liking how they're influencing the gamestate.
I got pretty strong town vibes off of Yshtola's Post 92 and like where she's going with things in general. With Auro I don't really have anything specific off the top of my head, but I feel like he's pushing this game in the right direction. If he keeps doing what he's doing I feel like it will benefit town in the long run, even if he winds up having a scum Role PM.

Is this post expressive of your current feelings towards the game or are you explicitly answering only the question asked?

I answered it based on what I had read at the time, which was a little over half the game.

[Klick]

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Up until this post the only scumread you've expressed is Alduskkel.

Hypocrisy Is Not A Scumtell

Agreed

I find myself skimming over most of Egix's posts without being able to commit much critical thinking to them. I've found in the past that that slot is scum >rand for me.

Do you mean that whenever you feel that way about a slot, that slot is scum, or that Egix's slot is usually >rand scum?

The former - when I glaze over someone's posts without thought, they tend to be scum.

[Klick]

Also I really enjoy that while all three of them are arguing about nothing Yshtola and pops are able to just completely ignore them and have their own off-topic conversation. I especially like the part where Yshtola gives townreads on Auro/ML without feeding the flame with either of them.

What is your opinion on this? This indicates a scumread, which doesn't match what you've said earlier.

You might be reading sarcasm in that post that isn't there? I legitimately appreciate that you two were able to just avoid the anti-town discussion and create your own content.

Ubless I'm missing the meaning of this post, which is possible because I have a nonzero amount of alcohol in my system atm

[Klick]

TSE talk to me. Where are you currently at on Auro? I really liked his early interactions with you but then wasn't a fan of his Miss Lynch dialogue. I want to sort through that dissonance.

[Klick]

wasn't a fan of his Miss Lynch dialogue

How would you expect me to deal with Miss Lynch?

Ignore her when you realise she's being antitown

Sure just a sec TSE, out on phone so it might be a bit

[Klick]

TSE read pages 13/14, then the end of page 15 and a bit of 16

[Klick]

Also pops
What have you done so far in this game, if anything, that you wouldn't do as scum?
I realise this is a self-meta question and some people hate that but humor me pls :3

[Klick]

[

~selfmeta~

]

Okay pops can be town

[Klick]

{Pops, Suji, Egix, Woodchuck} 4/4

Talk to me about Suji?
I actually like his content

[Klick]

Ahhh ML is Enter, that explains a lot.

[Klick]

VOTE: Egix
Choo choo!

[Klick]

What

[Klick]

I think correct strategy here 9 times out of 10 is Follow the Masons for our first lynch?
Cost-to-benefit also means we can at least talk about who is

unlikely

to be a Mason at this point

[Klick]

VOTE: Egix

Town
TSE
popsofctown

1 scum in Auro/ML

1 scum in CSF/Suji/Chemist
Egix scum

Is about where I'm at? I'll look into Cheeky interactions when I'm actually around

PEdit: that's a lot of posts

[Klick]

Just checked, that was hammer. I didn't realise, though I think a quick lynch on Egix is optimal here and probably would have done it were I aware?

[Klick]

Daykill mechanic

If a Mason dies instead of Egix getting lynched, Egix should 100% be lynched.

[Klick]

Knowledge of that strat highly incentivizes scum bluffing to get townread for no shot, especially when the potential payoff for scum is so low.

Basically I think that will just make us antsy in our lynches.

[Klick]

Welp.

Going to look into wagons a bit

[Klick]

Spoiler: VCA for later

VoteCount 1.4

RVS Award for

Chipmunk Sympathiser

goes to...

VOTE: notachipmunk

His claim of not being a chipmunk early seems panicky

CheekyTeeky [4]

- Cat Scratch Fever, Auro,

Yshtola Rhul, woodchuck321

TrueSoulEnergy [2]

- Klick,

Alduskkel

Auro [1]

-

Egix96

Chemist1422 [1]

- Chemist1422

MafMen [1]

- TrueSoulEnergy

woodchuck [1]

-

CheekyTeeky

Not Voting [3]

- rb, MafMen, Homura

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day will end when the timer hits zero:

(expired on 2020-03-04 17:42:53)

VoteCount 1.7

RVS Award for

Aww, How Innocent

goes to...

VOTE: Accountant cause we don't need no stinking skilled players!!!
Good morning everyone, what a fine day it is, except for the whole "our town is corrupted by Mafia" issue.

Alright then.

VOTE: Accountant

UNVOTE: Accountant
(I'm not being serious, just random voting time)

Scum

CheekyTeeky [3]

- Cat Scratch Fever,

Yshtola Rhul, woodchuck321

TrueSoulEnergy [2]

-

Alduskkel

, Chemist1422

Homura [2]

- Klick, Auro

Auro [1]

-

Egix96

woodchuck [1]

-

CheekyTeeky

Klick [1]

- TrueSoulEnergy

Alduskkel [1]

- Miss Lynch

Not Voting [2]

- popsofctown, Homura

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day will end when the timer hits zero:

(expired on 2020-03-04 17:42:53)

VoteCount 1.10

RVS Award for

Best Randomness

goes to...

The Dart Board gives me a

vote of MeMe

Hey, everyone!

Random Vote: Lemming

.

Hey, everyone!

Random Vote: Lemming

.

fix your randomizer it is broken

The Dart Board gives me a

vote of MeMe

Fix your dart board. It is broken.

Sujimichi [3]

- Klick, Auro,

Yshtola Rhul

CheekyTeeky [2]

- Cat Scratch Fever,

woodchuck321

Alduskkel [2]

- Miss Lynch, popsofctown

TrueSoulEnergy [1]

- Chemist1422

Auro [1]

-

Egix96

woodchuck [1]

-

CheekyTeeky

Klick [1]

- TrueSoulEnergy

Egix [1]

-

Alduskkel

Not Voting [1]

- Sujimichi

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day will end when the timer hits zero:

(expired on 2020-03-04 17:42:53)

VoteCount 2.1

RVS Award for

Someone Who Doesn't Have Flavour on Holiday

goes to...

oh no, I do not have the required flavour, I am sad

Egix [5]

- Cat Scratch Fever, Auro, Klick,

woodchuck321

, TrueSoulEnergy

woodchuck321 [1]

-

Egix96

Not Voting [6]

- CheekyTeeky, popsofctown, Miss Lynch, Yshtola Rhul, Sujimichi, Chemist1422

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day will end when the timer hits zero:

(expired on 2020-03-04 17:42:53)

VoteCount 5.1

RVS Award for

Paragon of Thought

goes to...

A bowl is most useful when empty.

Egix96 [5]

- TrueSoulEnergy, Cat Scratch Fever, Auro, popsofctown, Klick

HAMMER

Auro [1]

-

Egix96

Not Voting [3]

- Miss Lynch, Sujimichi, Chemist1422

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day will end when the timer hits zero:

(expired on 2020-03-04 17:42:53)

[Klick]

Alright so first of all there's no chance in hell I'm going to be able to keep up with this pace on my phone at my in-laws'. It's also not achieving anything except a toxic gamestate.

We are at MyLo.

5 town left, 5 to lynch. Right now have two shots to get all the town in on a scum lynch. I think it's massively unrealistic for all of us to accurately land on the same scum by our own reads while also being influenced by the scumteam. If we want to win this, we need something 'objective', or at least more directed and accurate than the hive mind's scumread.
This is the theory behind why I thought speedlynching Egix was optimal - the Masons were pushing that way, and that has credit to it.

We have a couple of options from what I can see. We can try and parse through the Masons' reads and use them to reach a solid lynch. Or we can try to form a town bloc and lynch outside of it without being too picky.

Thoughts? I think the second way is more plausible.

PEdit: holy shit stop posting.

[Klick]

@TSE and Auro:

Convince me on CSF? They've given very little content that I've cared about so far. Is it all related to daykill stuff?
I'm willing to accept TSE town. I'm going to have to sit and think for a bit tonight about Auro. If Auro is Town I have a lot of trouble seeing Enter as town.

[Klick]

TSE the more you argue with ML the more I start skimming.
I didn't catch why you're sold on CFS town.

[Klick]

Talk to me about Suji

I will, in a bit

I'd still like even just a tldr on this as well. There's a lot of talk about Suji from you with little substance.

[Klick]

Not particularly? You made a post earlier that I remember liking and I remember finding that significant considering you'd been sliding under my radar for the rest of the game. You/Chemist are both giving me very little to work with

[Klick]

Ugh I dozed off on page 20. I will be able to catch up tomorrow because tomorrow is Fri-yay, but in the interest of getting my paw more into the game:

VOTE: Egix

is a fine vote

246 seems like posting for the sake of posting.

401 is a lot of words but not many stances. Egix, what's your read on Auro and Klick (presently, not when you wrote this post)?

I feel pretty good about TSE, Ysh, and ML.

It was this one
The dissonance in calling out 401 for being lots of words/not many stances while simultaneously giving very little felt like you weren't being self-conscious in a way that I feel would be difficult to do as scum.
That,and the reads list is sensible - TSE and Yshtola were my two strongest townreads around that time, and while I'm uncertain about ML I can see why it'd be easy to fall into a townread there.

[Klick]

Klick, which way do you lean on Chemist?

I'm completely null. I feel like his head's not in this game at all, and I've seen that from him as town and scum.
Considering I have more townreads than scumreads att his point he's leaning scum, but not by anything in his own play.

[Klick]

Let's see...
The only particularly interesting interaction between the first two that I can see is that Auro switched off the meme Cheeky wagon onto Homura. I doubt scum!Auro spends early game solely bussing? So that would imply Auro/Suji isn't SvS (but that seems obvious by play anyway).
The three wagons with more than one vote on them in 1.10 are Suji, Cheeky (scum) and Aldus (Mason). Both Cheeky votes are remnants of the meme wagon. Me/Auro/Yshtola wagoned Homura and then Homura immediately replaced out. ML/pops... It's decently likely at least one scum decided to go for Aldus?

I guess the main question there is 'what was scum doing early game', and the votes seem to imply the answer 'not a lot' unless Miss Lynch- and pops-scum tried to get something going on Aldus or something.

What were you thinking?

[Klick]

Ah, fair enough
I find it difficult to treat the Cheeky wagon like a normal wagon considering Cheeky hadn't really posted and it was a bunch of people going 'lol let's vote Cheeky'
It felt to me like the two serious wagons at the time were Homura and Aldus.

[Klick]

But then you get into the nitty gritty of what a wagon is and Aldus only had two votes on him lol.

[Klick]

It's too much to parse on the train home give me half an hour to get in and settled and I'll have a look.
I've had my parents over for the week since this game started and they've just left. I should be able to be more active now that I'm not around them 24/7

[Klick]

Looking at the Suji case now.
Auro and ML both posit that scum have to push town to win here - can someone brief me on the theory behind that? I'm missing it. I'll accept the premise and move on for now.

I'm going to try and reframe/summarise your points to understand them better - let me know if I misinterpret anything.

Part 1 appears to be making the argument that Suji's push on Aldus was scummy because it seems forced, and when you pushed on it he didn't show any interest in reevaluating.
Looking through Suji's ISO, the accuracy of this statement seems strong at least - Suji's reads don't change all that much until 3/4 of his scumreads flip town (and tangentially, his scumreads being so bad isn't a good sign). I guess the main thing I'm missing here is why this is more likely to come from scum than town? Does Suji have a meta of bending reads to arguments from other players? There are plenty of stubborn town players, particularly on this site, that just don't really trust the reads of players that aren't themselves on principle.

The big part of this that I generally agree with and would like to add to is that his Aldus push is pretty damn weak. The only post that I'd call a 'push', an attempt to get others on board with his read, was 430. I remembered Suji having more conviction than he actually had - I was probably reading fairly logical statements and attributing more weight there than I should have.

That sorta leads into Point 2. I don't buy into the meta parts of the argument, especially as Suji seems to be a new player and microadjustments in playstyle like this from a game that happened five months ago aren't that scum-indicative I think. But it ties into the general idea that Suji has a surprising lack of conviction in pushing his view of the game.

I don't really know what to think of the third point, or the wagon argument in general. It seems like Suji/ML both got a bit peeved when it was suggested the Egix wagon could have been all town, because that implies exactly Suji/ML/Chemist, necessitating them being scum. The push to look on the wagon seems like a direct reaction against that. The read I'm getting from the reaction is 'flustered', which I don't actually think is alignment-indicative in this circumstance. Scum in that situation is obviously flustered, but town who thinks you've just come to a bad solve at MyLo also reacts a bit panicky. This point is null to me.

Funnily enough, your minor points do more for me than your major ones. The weak scumlean on Yshtola just limping there is bad. His reads list in general is poor - if you're town, it's 0/4 on scumreads. Me/pops/ML are his townreads, and while I'm not sold on pops I could pretty easily see a Suji/ML team (I'd like to look into ML more as the next thing I do). And Homura was bad.

All in all, there's less good than I thought there was, and while I don't think our logic quite matches up I think I can see Suji-scum. I'd like to see more from him today though when he's around more.

[Klick]

Fwiw I am also a Mason

[Klick]

Chemist :/

Come on, come play. Mason WIFOM won't change the underlying reason you're under fire. I have no idea where your head is at and I'd like to play with you!

Do you have a read on ML at all? I feel like my perception of the game diverges with her and Auro, and she feels easier to crack. I'm going to go more in depth with her later tonight, but right now I'm leaning scum there.

[Klick]

Spoiler: Mostly off-topic preface to Enter

Can't find the post in your ISO on my phone atm, but I think you said something about me along the lines of sensing that I'm avoiding interacting with you. That would be basically accurate, and if we're ever going to cooperate in this game I should probably at least explain why I'm doing that so you can understand my thought process better.

I play Mafia on this site for fun. I've mostly stopped playing Mafia because I find it increasingly difficult to have fun playing here. That's in large part because of the playerbase - there is a decently-sized group of users who can't help but get toxic in games and elsewhere around the site. You fall into that category. (It's also worth mentioning that I'm a particularly sensitive person even in the context of this site, so I'm willing to accept that this could be an overreaction/partially me not having the capacity to get over myself.)

When you first got pretty active as the Enter alt, I actually enjoyed a lot of the points you would make particularly in the Speakeasy. In a lot of circumstances it felt like you were making a lot of sense in contrast to the MS hive mind, and you weren't being a dick about it. Then I stopped paying attention to the forum for a few months, came back and kept finding a ton of inflammatory stuff from you. And I joined Correspondence Mafia because it looked like a good time, and while most slots in that game flaked because of the activity limitations, I lost all interest when you tried to pick a fight with me over a fairly innocuous request for you to answer an outstanding question. Combine that with what I've seen around the site, and I'm just not that interested in playing with someone who, from what I've seen, is mostly here to pick fights with people on the Internet. And like I said, that's probably mostly on me for choosing to play Mafia of all games.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that my impulse in this game was initially to avoid contact with Miss Lynch. Your arguments with TSE throughout the game have really demoralised me from going back and reading things. I considered replacing out when I found out you were Enter, but I've mostly stuck around because this is my favorite setup and most of this playerlist is great.

We're at MyLo at this point, so if you're town I'm going to have to cooperate with you. You seem aware enough of that that we should be able to progress smoothly from here if you're town. I'm not interested in going further into out-of-game stuff - it's just going to clog the thread without sufficient purpose and be fun for no one - but I figure you should have a basic explanation for why I've been avoiding interacting with you.

So the main thing that gives me the heebie jeebies about ML is her townslip. On Page 41 after the Egix lynch, she shows a lack of setup knowledge that scum would definitely have. To be clear, regardless of her alignment I read it as super fake. Cheeky shooting herself makes zero sense to the point that I don't think it's the assumption anyone makes of the situation. Also, the distance between her post at 1005 and her 'realisation' at 1006 is literally 31 seconds.

@ML: Are your townslips fake?
If not, can you please explain how you thought this setup worked when you were making your posts on Page 41?

The problem is that I think ML-town could conceivably be faking her lack of setup knowledge if she felt it would get her townread. I don't know how much it's worth putting weight to that consideration though.

The other thing I'm finding suspicious is how her reads are framed. It feels like she's organising her reads to allow herself to both take stances and allow herself to flip on those stances when it's convenient. The amount of times she's thrown my name out/wondered why people aren't suspecting me while simultaneously not pushing any real case against me is the best example of this. She's expressing controversial reads in comparison to the status quo, but she's not doing anything about them, implying she's actually fine with how things are currently. I know Auro said he liked ML's read on him, but I really... don't? Her current strong townread on Auro leaves open the caveat that he could just be really strong scum, and spends a lot of time clarifying that he looks exactly how she would expect scum to look. There's dissonance between what she claims to believe and how she tries to appear. This also happens in her reads on Chemist and pops (I appreciated how vague the '50% clear' comment was after Cheeky flipped scum). Most notably, she has remarkably little interest in the Suji push despite Suji being in all her PoE pools, and seems to be shopping around for alternatives today while looking like she has Suji down as scum.

Heading out for now, but basically I think she faked her townslip, and her reads don't match up with how she's trying to influence the game.

[Klick]

Yeah, I'd love to hear a response from ML first.

Pops is the next player I want to talk about more in-depth, but to answer that quickly, that slip is much more believable to me. I played this setup a ton years ago (you can check out some of the wiki games, I'm in a lot of the smaller versions of the setup), and each scum having more than one opportunity to daykill was a common point of confusion back in the day.

[Klick]

I changed it in my user settings ages ago - can't think of how I did it right this second, but when I'm home I can show you?

[Klick]

If it took me 31 seconds to realize something, that's because that's how long it took me to open a new tab, skim the setup specs until I found what I was looking for, figure out what was going on, and post that I realized my mistake.

Is this what happened?
The charitable town!ML version of this that was running through my head involved you not doing any of that and just making assumptions based on Auro's 1003:

You didn't read the setup properly

Your 1006 looks like a response to that:

Oh. Got it.

I'm skeptical of your explanation - it feels angleshooty but I don't think that happens in 31 seconds

I don't know, I'd love to hear other thoughts on this.

[Klick]

Finally,

Spoiler: Some stuff about me that might help clear things up:

1. Please remember that Correspondence mafia was, in my opinion, a shit show of a game. Great in concept, but the mods tried to implement far too many posting restrictions. I don't remember coming at anyone in that game in any way other than jokingly. In my opinion, in the pages of that thread there was no mafia played. Any reference Dannflor and I (we were in a hydra) made to you or anyone else was joking and not intended to rile anyone up in the slightest. We had no reads and mostly vented frustrations with the ridiculous posting restrictions in that game. I didn't think we came off strong on anyone that game and I feel really bad that we did.
2. TSE is a garbage player and I really don't think he should still be on this site. I replaced into this game because I saw him posting again when I reviewed it and he seemed to be mostly normal and relaxed, so I decided to give him another chance. He has repeatedly ignored site rules despite warnings from other players, his posting is needlessly spammy and fluffy, he has some enormous sense of competence that I have no clue where he gets it from. He regularly responds to posts without even reading the context for the part he's responding too, much less the entire post, and thus results in often infuriating bouts where players have to sit and discuss with him for pages on end until he learns what he could have learned about what they were saying in the first post by reading the post in it's entirety. He has shown an unending disrespect for players on multiple accounts across multiple warnings by moderators, he makes games ridiculously unfun for a lot of people and I am honestly just waiting for the day when he either gains enough self-awareness to fix himself or simply begins to head towards a slightly less ... ignorant being. Please do not judge my on my interactions with TSE, I go out of my way to minimize them.
3. I admit that I have been intentionally... standoffish? at certain points due to certain real life and on site circumstances. I try to avoid situations like that, I don't enjoy those positions and I don't think I did anyone any particular amount of good. I have no intention of starting needless arguments with people on the internet anymore - there were a couple reasons that I was where I was that I won't get into, but I hope you'll find that I'm not typically that sort of person, and I still find it far easier and more enjoyable to make friends when and wherever possible. I can go more into this if necessary, you'll have to understand I'm slightly ... saddened ... to hear that I was getting to you like this. I hope at some point in the future I can earn your trust back because I think while I can get a bit impulsive and firey in mafia games, outside of games I'm generally a pretty solid person. If this needs to be continued after the game, I'll do so. I definitely strive to be the best I can be and if I'm putting people off like this that's not ok.

Finally, I keep trying to figure out where I met you, and there's no way it was You Could Be Anyone IV, right? Was that Klick or Klingoncelt, or were both of you there? Your name seems really familiar.

Anyways. I'm sorry. I hope we can work this out.

-E

Thanks for this, I appreciate it. We can chat more about it postgame if you want.

I thiiink I played a few games with you as EE ages ago (and possibly whatever account you had before EE if I'm remembering that correctly)? And you might have played a Survivor once? That's where most of my site activity is. I wasn't in the game you mentioned.

[Klick]

"is active elsewhere" should be a perfectly fine point to make, I'll be disappointed if *that* is against forum rules lol.

Who are my partners, Suji?

Cat Scratch Fever and Klick at this moment. I most would like to lynch Cat Scratch Fever today as the possibility exists that you could be Town caught in a confirmation biased tunnel. Her "case" against me was very much weaker than yours both in the information presented and effort put into it (of course, your case was misrepresentative). She is not re-evaluating her stances based on Egix96's reveal as Town, and she is not trying to engage with Klick despite stating that she wanted to "pick his brain" more.

When you get a chance after catching up fully, I'd love to hear a bit about your read on me?

[Klick]

One thing to point out: how much have you played with CheekyTeeky? Because, like, usually it's beyond absurd to think a player would shoot themselves. But like.. it's CheekyTeeky. She could do anything. I assumed maybe ML has some familiarity with CT that made it seem less impossible.

I've only semi-watched Cheeky play White Flag, and that's it. I wasn't aware she had a meta of making insane plays like that. Thanks for the context.

[Klick]

ML of all slots is like actively dumb to wagon right now? Which makes for a fat grouping of question marks I want to bin as town.

Talk to me about this, both parts

[Klick]

What comes to mind first. Go.

CSF/TSE/Suji?

What would the theory be behind TSE bussing Suji today (and Suji similarly gearing up for a CFS lynch)?

[Klick]

Klick what's your read on pops?

Meant to go into this last night but I ran out of time

Pops is my second-strongest townread, right behind TSE. She had a similar read of the ML/Auro/Aldus dynamic to me early on, and I got the vibe that pops was actively avoiding stirring up shit in the wave of pages where a bunch of people are just stirring up shit. Her posts that aren't explicitly off-topic all read as engaged and trying to sort.

Her self-meta response to me was really solid:

Also pops
What have you done so far in this game, if anything, that you wouldn't do as scum?
I realise this is a self-meta question and some people hate that but humor me pls :3

Auro is wrong, selfmeta is awful.
I wouldn't have drunkposted as much as I did. I only drunkposted once as scum last year, and it was a rather deliberate "I actually think this might throw away this game for me but I can't have this become a trust tell for me" but there were times I put posting off because it was a scumgame and I think there is slip risk. In the right context I would still catch up on the game but this will be one of those dumber unverifiable elements of selfmeta, I had a new deck idea I wanted to try in Legends of Runeterra and I like playing Legends of Runeterra with a drink but I actually had to put off trying it any that evening because this was a game I needed to solve. As scum I would have just caught up the next day. As scum sick and tired of playing Hecarim again because I can't think of anything better maybe I push the boundaries of how much I dare to drunkpost, maybe I still don't and watch youtube, it'd be harder for me to guess.

I think I also would not have approached this game as slowly as I have as scum, I think I'd have come up with a mislynch informercial or be bussing a partner for cred by now. On that note, Alduskkel did something that made me want to UNVOTE: . Sorry Sujimichi

My theory is that some people as town and scum approach this sort of question fundamentally differently. People are much more aware of their own towntells and scumtells than others are. As town I am typically conscious of when I've exited my scumrange, while as scum in most circumstances I'd really struggle to answer this question in a way that would have any sort of appearance of veracity. Basically, from scum I'd expect to not feel too compelled by their response to this question, and from town I'd expect something genuine. I've used this tell one other time and it successfully got me to townread a slot that I was otherwise super tunneled on all game - I can go find that if anyone cares.
Pops' response reads genuine. I buy that she actively avoids drunkposting as scum, and I don't think Open 773 is the gane she decides to break the mold on that. Especially since the fact that she doesn't do this as scum came out unprompted - I don't get the sense she had this fact in her holster ready to pull out as a towntell in this game. And she posted a ton of content while drunk, so I don't feel like she was holding back/doing it in a controlled way.

I think there's credit to her being one of the only people with a legitimate scumread on Cheeky. There's not much partner equity there.
Her townslip was solid too, more nuanced and airtight than ML's - I talked about this earlier but I'd be happy to go into more detail if anyone wants me to

And just generally her content has felt earnest to me. Particularly today it feels like she has recognised that she's a potential lynch target, and her response has felt like town trying to fix a bad gamestate from her perspective as opposed to scum who is fine with how things are. Unless the solve is like exactly pops/Suji/{Chem, ML} and she's scrambling, but her interactions with the Suji slot don't really feel like SvS to me.

So yeah, I think pops is town here.

[Klick]

Especially since the fact that she doesn't do this as scum came out unprompted -

didn't come out unprompted*

[Klick]

I'm not sure right this second. The main reservation I have with lynching Suji atm is that I'm conscious of the fact that if it's wrong you are a) pretty likely scum and b) pretty likely to just get sheeped by TSE, who I'm pretty sure is town.
This would be a lot easier if I could feel confident in sorting you one way or another.

[Klick]

Never trust a house. They'll always backstab you when you least expect it. That's how they got my great-grandpa, he never even saw the house sneaking up on him.
So, that's why I use Caravan Comfort Limited. Contact me if you'd like to purchase one, and I'll even give you a 4% discount. On the house.

Quoting for preservation lmao

[Klick]

Let's see, plug in my current assumptions:

- TSE town
- pops town
- One of Auro/Suji town

That leaves the final town in CSF/ML/Chem.

I think I'd prefer a lynch somewhere in that pile

[Klick]

It's not quite a solve, it's 2/3 scum with the last being in the Auro/Suji 1v1

[Klick]

I'm reconsidering that - it was originally based on your interactions around page 10ish where you were arguing and spamming up the thread, but your actions today are supporting each other well and I don't think SvS is outside the realm of possibility.

But you/Suji is SvS approximately 0% of the time.

PEdit: PoE

[Klick]

I think you/Suji are town in exactly a ML/CSF/Chemist scumteam. Not impossible, but the odds favor you being scum there

[Klick]

Do you believe it's plausible that scum!Chemist claims Mason while town!Suji is getting pushed by many townslots?

I don't see why not. How would tomorrow be projected to look for a ML/CSF/Chemist scumteam if Suji-town got lynched today? On paper that doesn't look great for them.
Alternatively, I think there's a chance Chemist wasn't engaged enough with the thread at the time he claimed Mason to have a sense of how much pressure was on Suji.

Do you think it's implausible?

[Klick]

around page 10ish where you were arguing and spamming up the thread

I see you loosely followed White Flag - would you say "arguing and spamming" was not an element of my D1 play when I was pushing people based on their push on me?

I didn't pay a huge amount of attention to that specific game - I could go back and reread if you'd like but I'm not sure it'd help me sort you

[Klick]

her interactions with the Suji slot don't really feel like SvS to me

Which interactions in particular? Please show me. Keep in mind that Sujimichi is a relatively new player (and was apparently coached to a good extent in her previous scumgame by Mastina), and the game has no daytalk.

I'm mainly referring to pops' apparent idolization of Suji.

Redacting associations was a mini townslip.
Her readslist is resonant if I reconsider Yshtola which I potentially should, like I said.
Not much more to it. There's room for her to be scum. I don't know if Suji scum would want to pocket me or not. Sujimichi is a very special player.

Sujimichi is a being of unspeakable power and wisdom and her faction will probably win whichever it is.

If you are scum and she isn't you should be very crestfallen that she has replaced in

On that note, Alduskkel did something that made me want to UNVOTE: . Sorry Sujimichi

I don't think this comes from scum about a scumbuddy? There's a bit too much focus there, particularly in the last bit. I can't quite articulate why

[Klick]

It would look pretty awesome for a ML/CSF/Chemist scumteam.
If they're confident in Mason it's a win. If they're not, I will still be under heavy suspicion.
There's all reason to believe Pops will hard-push me and perhaps even vote me.

Why would scum!anyone claim unprompted? Clearly there must be some gamestate reason for it.
That there was significant pressure on Suji is pretty clear.
So Chemist must not only be dumb, he must also be ignorant of the game?
Does Chemist strike you as dumb?

Would you agree that claiming Masons if Suji was his partner, on the other hand, is not necessarily dumb play (it still kind of is) but more explainable?

I don't think Chemist is dumb at all. But I think it's pretty obvious that regardless of his alignment he's not very engaged with this game at all. I've basically come up null on his Mason claim because I could see him doing it as either alignment if he had just been skimming and seeing that he had a decent amount of pressure on him.

If Suji is scum, Chemist is probably scum yeah. I don't dispute that.

[Klick]

Heading out for now but I'll look at white flag when I'm back

[Klick]

It has kind of been easy to tell that TSE is a mason for a while, Chemist

Do you have any thoughts to offer about this particular post, especially in the context of her latest posts, Klick?

Not any that would be helpful to share with the class. Chemist/TSE/pops have all gone far down the WIFOM rabbit hole and I think it has outlived whatever usefulness it may have had.

[Klick]

I've basically come up null on his Mason claim because I could see him doing it as either alignment if he had just been skimming and seeing that he had a decent amount of pressure on him.

Incorrect, Klick. If this was true, it would have reflected in the reasons he mentioned for claiming. "To get out of the PoE and avoid a TSE tunnel" were the first two reasons he mentioned. "To avoid lynching a buddy" or something was a reason for crumbing.

If he actually felt lynch pressure it's highly unlikely he would have said "to get out of the PoE". I don't think there's anyway he comes to the conclusion that he's the one getting lynched today anyway, upon any skim of the thread.

The rationale for crumbing is also obviously bad if Mason, and that isn't a function of gamestate for Mason.

He also doubled down on the claim, tried to confirm it, got frustrated when others started claiming it - that's scummy.

Here's the potential town thought process I see:

- Chemist isn't paying close attention
- Chemist doesn't think he can get engaged with this game
- Chemist decides the way he can be most useful for town is by drawing a kill onto himself, getting a scum killed and semi-clearing himself
-OR-
- Chemist is Mason, claims in the hopes that Town won't lynch him for it while Mafia don't feel confident enough to shoot him

I think going into much more depth could be detrimental here, but this seems plausible based on my experience with Chemist.
But he could just as easily just be scum and considering the available options left I'd say it's somewhat likely.

PEdit: you're telling me to ignore the WIFOM while reading into the WIFOM
My assumption is that she thinks that will get scum to misfire somehow, as with many of her follow-up posts on the subject.

[Klick]

That seems like odd reasoning to want to lynch Chemist.

[Klick]

Hypocrisy Is Not A Scumtell

[Klick]

Because I’m the Last Mason.

VOTE: TSE

Cool

If you're VT this is essentially gamethrowing

Otherwise you just outed as scum

TSE is probably fakeclaiming but I'm not unvoting until he rescinds

TSE if you're VT and you don't rescind I hope you know you've lost us the game

His primary goal here seems to be to get TSE to retract.

I think Chemist scumreads TSE for disrupting his gambit.

[Klick]

Chemist, TSE is probably town, and if he isn't he almost certainly isn't getting lynched anytime soon

Talk to me about Auro-town. I think Suji/CSF/ML is probably a fairly good solve but I can't settle on an Auro read, and a mislynch greatly favors Auro-scum.

[Klick]

a mislynch greatly favors Auro-scum

This is an empty statement, a mislynch favors anyone-scum.

Ah, but I said 'greatly', and I already (and recently) explained why that is the case.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

@Miss Lynch:

Join me here, or chat it through with me. I think a CSF lynch has the highest chance of hitting scum at this point.

[Klick]

Hi Aldershot, I miss u

[Klick]

No one has a solid case on her - give me one?

The post right above this one by pops was a pretty good case or at least a solid starting point tbh?

[Klick]

How is it a good case? There's something about people not including her in teams, and her "minimizing interactions" - I never got that impression through CSF's posting this game. She's been asking questions whenever she comes online.

That first point is pretty good and you're just kinda saying it like it's nothing - it's the main thing putting me in the 'this is a solid lynch' camp

[Klick]

@Miss Lynch: Join me here, or chat it through with me. I think a CSF lynch has the highest chance of hitting scum at this point

You think she's scum, no?
Name a team where ML is town but CSF is scum.
CSF, Auro, _____

Chemist has listed a few of those!
I think CSF makes sense as scum in a few configurations where you are town as well - you're the limiting factor there, not her

[Klick]

@Klick
Your vote on CSF is BAD.

They are part of the SUPERSQUAD!

Vote Suji or ML.

I don't expect you to sheep me, but I disagree that it's bad.
Im sorry my friend but I think the SUPERSQUAD has been infiltrated

[Klick]

Scum!Klick would live for the SUPERSQUAD lmao.

[Klick]

@TSE:

ML is not a bad lynch, but CSF is better and I'd like to see where it goes.
Can you talk about why you're seeing CSF as town? I can't remember if you have already

[Klick]

When you're back, could you give some thoughts on my pops towncase in 1622?

Actually, Auro could you do the same? Your only response to that at the time was 'Interesting' and then you went on to talk to me about a bunch of reasons you think she's scum instead.

[Klick]

CSF has been pushed confirmed by scum.

Cheeky placed a vote on CSF very shortly before she blew herself up. Her vote was a lot weaker than the other CSF votes at the time. I see no reason it couldn't have been a bus.

[Klick]

The pops towncase got piled under the ML read and looking at Auro's Suji case. I'd been wanting to post about it properly for a while but it was never a priority.

Scum!Klick wouldn't be so waffly on Auro for so long, regardless of Auro's alignment.

[Klick]

If CSF was taking yolo shots (as in, while not anywhere near lynch range) why hasn't she taken one now with a few people pushing her?

Probably because she's been pushed for a whole 7 hours? lol
I don't think there's even been a votecount since pops put the first vote on CSF.

[Klick]

I think I struggle to read overly logical players. I had the same problem with Luca Blight.
But then I sensed an inkling of emotion in your questioning of me about Chemist and I'm trying to figure out what that implies.

PEdit: this post is about Auro

[Klick]

soft-pushes

I mean you've kinda answered your own question

At no point has there been sufficient pressure on CSF to justify a shot.

On that note, it's much more surprising that Chem-scum wouldn't have shot by now.

[Klick]

But then I sensed an inkling of emotion in your questioning of me about Chemist and I'm trying to figure out what that implies.

Well, there's a mild amount of frustration that you don't see what I'm seeing? Like it does seem to boil down to value calls in most cases.
Apart from that I'm actually having fun this game!
What really gets on my nerves is a bloc of people peddling shit game-losing "logic" and refusing to evaluate things at all. It's at least fun to challenge clever players (even if scum) on different things and see their reactions/rebuttals.

I think part of it is that I think I know Chemist decently well in the context of two relative strangers on a Mafia forum. And he reminds me a bit of when I was his age (and oh god that feels weird to say). You're taking an objective, logical approach to his actions while I'm reading a fair amount of emotion in what he's saying.
I haven't ruled out Chem-scum but like what he's done so far could totally come from town.
I'd at least concede that on the whole the Mason claim was anti-town?

Also to be clear, I'm ignoring your questions about CSF/my solve until I hear from ML. I'll come back to them.

[Klick]

I think strictly logical play has limits that make it inferior to a mix of logic and emotion/gut reads/'feelings'. That's probably influenced by me being scatterbrained and losing myself in logical debate really easily. I hated debate class

[Klick]

Chemist, TSE is probably town, and if he isn't he almost certainly isn't getting lynched anytime soon

Talk to me about Auro-town. I think Suji/CSF/ML is probably a fairly good solve but I can't settle on an Auro read, and a mislynch greatly favors Auro-scum.

I think this is another list of lynchbait and people scum reading you.

I think this is a really convenient excuse to discredit my solve.
Townread on TSE + townread on pops = there are exactly zero players that I could scumread without you saying this.

[Klick]

At no point has there been sufficient pressure on CSF to justify a shot.

So you'll agree that Yshtola Rhul's suspicion of CSF based on the timing of the Ald shot holds little weight, since CSF had no pressure then also.

I thought in my mind you had listed Rhul's CSF push on that basis as a good point to support the idea of CSF scum. If not, nevermind. If so, ^

I agree with this - I think it's unlikely CSF shot Yshtola even if she is scum

[Klick]

ML, outside of it being 'lazy' can you actually substantiate why the CSF push is bad?

[Klick]

Auro scumreads me

[Klick]

Are you asking me to respond to 1111? I'm not sure what you're asking in the first post

What's the list?

[Klick]

If I could shoot anyone right now it'd be CSF, with you coming in close behind.
Realistically I'd probably be willing to see Chemist flip today - I'm less sure about him as a scumread but I feel like him flipping town would still reveal a lot about the gamestate (I think I could confidently push a vote on CSF or you and get all the town on board in that scenario)
And I'd probably also be fine with Auro dying today.

[Klick]

Spoiler: Mostly off-topic preface to Enter

Can't find the post in your ISO on my phone atm, but I think you said something about me along the lines of sensing that I'm avoiding interacting with you. That would be basically accurate, and if we're ever going to cooperate in this game I should probably at least explain why I'm doing that so you can understand my thought process better.

I play Mafia on this site for fun. I've mostly stopped playing Mafia because I find it increasingly difficult to have fun playing here. That's in large part because of the playerbase - there is a decently-sized group of users who can't help but get toxic in games and elsewhere around the site. You fall into that category. (It's also worth mentioning that I'm a particularly sensitive person even in the context of this site, so I'm willing to accept that this could be an overreaction/partially me not having the capacity to get over myself.)

When you first got pretty active as the Enter alt, I actually enjoyed a lot of the points you would make particularly in the Speakeasy. In a lot of circumstances it felt like you were making a lot of sense in contrast to the MS hive mind, and you weren't being a dick about it. Then I stopped paying attention to the forum for a few months, came back and kept finding a ton of inflammatory stuff from you. And I joined Correspondence Mafia because it looked like a good time, and while most slots in that game flaked because of the activity limitations, I lost all interest when you tried to pick a fight with me over a fairly innocuous request for you to answer an outstanding question. Combine that with what I've seen around the site, and I'm just not that interested in playing with someone who, from what I've seen, is mostly here to pick fights with people on the Internet. And like I said, that's probably mostly on me for choosing to play Mafia of all games.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that my impulse in this game was initially to avoid contact with Miss Lynch. Your arguments with TSE throughout the game have really demoralised me from going back and reading things. I considered replacing out when I found out you were Enter, but I've mostly stuck around because this is my favorite setup and most of this playerlist is great.

We're at MyLo at this point, so if you're town I'm going to have to cooperate with you. You seem aware enough of that that we should be able to progress smoothly from here if you're town. I'm not interested in going further into out-of-game stuff - it's just going to clog the thread without sufficient purpose and be fun for no one - but I figure you should have a basic explanation for why I've been avoiding interacting with you.

So the main thing that gives me the heebie jeebies about ML is her townslip. On Page 41 after the Egix lynch, she shows a lack of setup knowledge that scum would definitely have. To be clear, regardless of her alignment I read it as super fake. Cheeky shooting herself makes zero sense to the point that I don't think it's the assumption anyone makes of the situation. Also, the distance between her post at 1005 and her 'realisation' at 1006 is literally 31 seconds.

@ML: Are your townslips fake?
If not, can you please explain how you thought this setup worked when you were making your posts on Page 41?

The problem is that I think ML-town could conceivably be faking her lack of setup knowledge if she felt it would get her townread. I don't know how much it's worth putting weight to that consideration though.

The other thing I'm finding suspicious is how her reads are framed. It feels like she's organising her reads to allow herself to both take stances and allow herself to flip on those stances when it's convenient. The amount of times she's thrown my name out/wondered why people aren't suspecting me while simultaneously not pushing any real case against me is the best example of this. She's expressing controversial reads in comparison to the status quo, but she's not doing anything about them, implying she's actually fine with how things are currently. I know Auro said he liked ML's read on him, but I really... don't? Her current strong townread on Auro leaves open the caveat that he could just be really strong scum, and spends a lot of time clarifying that he looks exactly how she would expect scum to look. There's dissonance between what she claims to believe and how she tries to appear. This also happens in her reads on Chemist and pops (I appreciated how vague the '50% clear' comment was after Cheeky flipped scum). Most notably, she has remarkably little interest in the Suji push despite Suji being in all her PoE pools, and seems to be shopping around for alternatives today while looking like she has Suji down as scum.

Heading out for now, but basically I think she faked her townslip, and her reads don't match up with how she's trying to influence the game.

This post gave pretty much all my thoughts on you-scum. You responded to the townslip stuff and I think it could go either way, but you didn't really have a response to the second half about your reads. Your reads feel convenient while also trying to look like they're against the grain.

The main thing I'd add to that is that your push on me just now/criticism of the CSF push feels super weak/unsubstantiated and reactionary.

Also, as you seem to have put together the solve that looks most likely to me right now is you/CSF/Auro. You/Auro in particular have interactions today that have pinged me as SvS. Auro's switch over to scum!Klick seemed to happen when I started presenting rationale for Chemist!town and pops!town, but it also coincided with when the first semblance of pressure started up on you. TSE keeps suggesting a vote on you, but Auro is just sort of ignoring that/pushing it aside without actually quashing it. You'd think as town that reads you town, he'd be concerned about the possibility of TSE voting you without him tomorrow.
My read earlier of you/Auro being TvS also seems to be close to the forefront of his mind - he brought it up quickly when I suggested him/Suji was TvS earlier. This makes me think he was thinking about it consciously, which I think is indicative of you two being partners. There's a decent chance he's been banking on my read of you two being TvS for a while now.

A big motivating factor for wanting to lynch CSF is that I haven't seen a reason to townread her that I gel with thus far, yet she's getting widely townread for relatively little content. For someone you're consistently calling 'lynchbait' she's had zero legitimate pressure until now.
I also really like pops' point about her potentially minimising her interactions - her reads throughout the game feel super milquetoast and I don't think there's a player in the game that I'd say is particularly unlikely to be buddies with her in a vacuum. I think that's by design.

I also really don't like this post by Auro about CSF:

How is it a good case? There's something about people not including her in teams, and her "minimizing interactions" - I never got that impression through CSF's posting this game. She's been asking questions whenever she comes online.

That first point is pretty good and you're just kinda saying it like it's nothing - it's the main thing putting me in the 'this is a solid lynch' camp

That first point is pretty good

No, it's not. She's interacting with people when she comes to the thread. Every instance she's been here she's been asking questions. Point me to any question directed to her she avoided.

Turns out he thought so little of the first point that he didn't even realise I was referring to it - I was talking about the bit where pops said people weren't including CSF in their PoE pools. But he takes the 'minimizing interactions' point and shoves it in a box to mean 'avoiding questions' instead. CSF asks questions and doesn't avoid them, but that's not what 'minimizing interactions' means and he should know that.

Those are the main things tying together a CSF/ML/Auro team for me at the moment.

[Klick]

I can case you if you'd like, but me scumreading you is pretty damn hard to argue is reactionary.

But that's not what I said. I said your

push

on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

He's calling the whole thing about me v auro as SvT because when you said it it was scummy as fuck and it is also consistently contradictory with your views on the game.

Explain why you think this?
Regardless, this is obviously false for Auro, who claimed to have a townread on me up until today. Not sure why you're putting words in his mouth.

I think if you pay any attention whatsoever to how consistently TSE misrepresents the people he is discussing with or fights straw men or just how completely he fails to understand anything about what is going on at all, you will very much understand why Auro has yet to take his pushes seriously.

How is that relevant? If Auro thinks TSE is town and you're town, it doesn't matter if he thinks TSE's read on you is bollocks - he

has

to care about TSE's read on you.

And so do you, if you're town and you think TSE is town.

[Klick]

A big motivating factor for wanting to lynch CSF is that I haven't seen a reason to townread her that I gel with thus far, yet she's getting widely townread for relatively little content. For someone you're consistently calling 'lynchbait' she's had zero legitimate pressure until now.

'lynchbait' was the wrong word.

This isn't a good reason to want to lynch anyone, BTW. Push? Sure. Lynch? Definitely not until you've seen something you like from them. And putting votes down in Mylo is sketchy.

For what it's worth I have zero expectation that CSF will get the 5 votes needed to get lynched today, especially if my solve is right. But I'm still going to try, and I think it's been productive and will continue to be productive.

I also really like pops' point about her potentially minimising her interactions - her reads throughout the game feel super milquetoast and I don't think there's a player in the game that I'd say is particularly unlikely to be buddies with her in a vacuum. I think that's by design.

Are you trying to say... she's lurking? Because that's a really fancy and complicated way of saying that that throws a whole lot more shade on her than is maybe deserving of someone who is lurking.

Not just lurking - 'active lurking' is the most accurate meta label you could stick on it, if you really want. But it goes deeper than that - I think she's avoiding content that will help solve her and her partners. That's why all of the linking content that I've found for my solve has come from you and Auro, not her.

[Klick]

Starting from TSE has never demonstrated any form of understanding of mafia (at least as far as I've seen);
Explain to me why I should care what TSE's read on me is if I'm town and he's town?
Why Auro should care what TSE's read on me is if he's town and TSE is town?

What is your plan to get scum lynched, today or tomorrow?
Because it either involves scum bussing or full town cooperation.

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

I'm not going hard on anything/

I am not pushing anything.

You haven't played with me in a while if you think this is me pushing.

I'm not sure why you took that to be relative to how you usually play.
In this game, you have been throwing my name out as likely scum for ages without going anywhere with it (Aka what I am calling 'limping'). I start pushing CSF, and you start applying pressure, relative to you limping me as scum before that.

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

There's no way this is what you meant initially.

But it's exactly what I said.

How is my "push on you reactionary" if my read has been constant?
Are you saying I was preparing a scum read on you from the beginning of the game only to push it in the eventuality that you decided to push me?

Yeah, I think you've been sitting on a Klick scumread without doing anything with it, waiting for the prime opportunity to actually make something happen with it.
Tell me this - if you've had me as a scumread since like page 10, then why

haven't

you pushed it yet?

I said CSF is likely town a long time ago.

I remembered you posting a solve of CSF/Suji/me somewhere, though I can't find it right this second.
I also remember you shading her in a recent post.
Apologies for not remembering the time you mentioned her as town - is that one your real read?

[Klick]

That only seems relevant in a scenario where four town group together today. I suppose that's viable?
Still, not caring about the reads of someone you think is town makes an already difficult position significantly worse, and I doubt it comes from town

[Klick]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82282
Basically ML it feels like you've read this article and are trying to emulate your way into looking town by following Thought 3:

3) People who have really out there reads, stick out too much, don't agree with the generally established townblock, and want to do their own thing which people don't largely disagree with get lynched incredibly consistently. They also incredibly consistently flip town.

But then you're also trying to avoid the part where you get lynched for it.

[Klick]

It would help if every time I went back to read you I didn't have to go through 250 posts, a large chunk of which are you just arguing with TSE.

I am reading, though. I feel like I've brought up valid points! In fact, I think I've tracked your CSF read better than you have.
PEdit: What makes you think I'm unwilling to go back and read? You're pushing that narrative rather hard but I can't see where I've 'not been interested in going back and figuring out what players have done'.
I'm the one who feels super misrepped throughout this conversation
PEdit2: I have no idea what that sentence means. I'm trying to figure out if it's a real sentence.

[Klick]

Here they were:

CSF I'm gonna be honest most of your post seems remarkably nitpicky. This part in particular stands out as wrong:

Her reads here are very simplistic. All of her scumreads townread Aldus, and her townreads scumread Aldus, which doesn't make sense because if you're going to make associative reads like that, you should also consider that scum aren't all going to townread each other.

First, assuming that this was the basis behind her reads with no reason to assume it at all is weird. But in addition to that, pops was townreading Aldus at this point, Klick has been townreading him the entire game, and Egix had no read on him at all. Your statement is so factually incorrect, that you could say the reverse is true and it would still be just as wrong.

Suji CSF Klick

[Klick]

I've also just found where you call CSF town, but it comes with a fair share of qualifiers

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

This is disgusting timing.

Combined with the Cheeky vote that immediately follows it, I can go w/ Chemist scum right now, and I'd be willing to

at least temporarly

town block w/ CSF and TSE.

@TSE and Auro:

Convince me on CSF? They've given very little content that I've cared about so far. Is it all related to daykill stuff?
I'm willing to accept TSE town. I'm going to have to sit and think for a bit tonight about Auro. If Auro is Town I have a lot of trouble seeing Enter as town.

What major game did we play together?

I agree TSE is town, but blocking with him means we have to reach an agreement, which means we have to be able to communicate and I don't think that's happened successfully once this game?

CSF is likely town because of Cheeky and Chemist jumping on their wagon so quickly.

This is based off the assumption that Chemist is scum, however.

[Klick]

Like your read of me and CSF and even certain other players seem anchored in things that are not things we did but in the way you feel about how auro or someone else feels about us.

There was a pretty explicit section of that post that had to do with interactions between the three of you.
You asked for reads on all three of you.

[Klick]

Well played CSF, thanks for pulling through I think touching the gamestate as little as possible was the optimal play in this position.

Good game everyone! I appreciate the compliments on the scum's play, though I think my shot was definitely questionable (but it worked out in the end, so I suppose that justifies it - I talked about this a bit in the dead thread).

Really enjoyed playing with several of you. I'd love a chance to play as town with Auro and Suji.

[Klick]

I felt like we weren't actually that likely to get a mislynch at 8. Momentum was gone for a Suji lynch, and pops/me were splintered from CSF. You/TSE/ML were starting to bloc, and I thought Suji had potential to join that with time. I wanted to disrupt what I saw as a slowly declining gamestate, since I thought CSF had a chance to solo if we didn't mess with anything else. I definitely didn't have super high hopes though, so I'm thrilled it worked

[Klick]

Something I really like about this setup is how differently the Masons have to play. Early Mason hunting for me involved looking for people who seemed to have fairly accurate reads.
I know a bunch of people said they weren't a huge fan of the setup, but it's definitely one of my favorites

[Klick]

Chemist <3
My initial reaction to your Mason claim was that you were probably telling the truth but then your continued posts threw me off the trail