Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Auro]

Hey what about the Mason PT?

[Auro]

@mod

can you delete that post?

[Auro]

My post was also fake, I was clearly wifom gambiting

[Auro]

VOTE: CheekyTeeky
Wagons!

heh heh

[Auro]

To my Mason buddies,
Sup

[Auro]

I told you not to reply to that in our Mason PT!! Ugh!

[Auro]

It's my birthday today! I'm forever 21 >.>
Will read the game in a bit xx

Happy Birthday!! :3

[Auro]

Why so? If I saw someone try to pull off that kind of gambit, I'd want to townread them as well.

[Auro]

What about it is town-indicative? You said yourself that it was obviously fake.

The attempt at crafting/executing it?
Plus, it's clear from tone it's not really a -serious- townread, he's just meming around. Do you still think it's scummy given the additional context?

[Auro]

I think it's slightly likelier for town to pull off that sorta gambit to bait scum daykills, over scum pointlessly faking them. You can disagree with me on this, and my awareness of this should negate any townpoints TSE did award me for it; but it's a valid reason to throw out a townread on someone early game.

[Auro]

Have we played in any completed games before, TrueSoulEnergy?

[Auro]

I strongly townread Chemist!

[Auro]

It appears you are attempting to disrupt possible future attempts to identify masons

Considering that we

don't

want scum to identify them... why is this such a problem?

[Auro]

Nevermind the above question.

[Auro]

Rhul, do you have any reads?

[Auro]

Oo!

I townread {Klick, TrueSoulEnergy, Chemist}.
No scumreads yet... we should be wagoning people.
Join me on CheekyTeeky?

[Auro]

Auro, in post 85 you defended TSE by saying you thought TSE was just memeing, but post 90 makes it clear that’s not the case. Does this change your read at all?

I was talking about the context around which he threw the townread, not that his townread itself was a meme. 90 may be slightly problematic but more than the response, it's his lack of engagement with Klick (and the Klick vote) that bothers me.

I townread him for the natural tone and the strategy post, but it's weaker now.

TSE, do you think Klick's concerns about you are unjustified? If not, why not talk to him about them?

[Auro]

Are you trying to town tell by emulating a recent game? But what about... Aldus and Klick?

I was just trying to annoy you

[Auro]

May I ask why you Town read Klick?

I like his push on you.

As a side note, I think a lot of RVS posts end up seeming awkward, town or scum. Rhul's RVS post was probably decided before gamestart.

I don't see the problem with Klick choosing to keep a vote on a slot he was scumhunting, over a lol Cheeky wagon.

[Auro]

Why not just ask him for reasoning? I don't see why that's hypocritical, unless he refuses to explain the read - but no one ever asked him to begin with.

[Auro]

Well if Auro Open wolves then OFC in retracting that IC on him

[Auro]

Just noting that townreads should hold lesser weight as basis of attacks this game, generally speaking.

[Auro]

None, really. I'd rather not detail why I said it.

Townread Aldus (and Aldus, Aether is Rhul) and my townread on Klick strengthened.

@Mod, some prods are due I think?

[Auro]

Random vote, or serious?
If serious, why?

[Auro]

Sorry, didn't read properly. But I'd still like an explanation

[Auro]

Ugh I see we're going to be banging heads again Auro

Maybe give me a chance to lynch teh scumz first?

[Auro]

Cat Scratch Fever, I love your avatar.

[Auro]

I think he is tryharding though just going off of a lazy post count metric.

Slow game, anyway, right?

[Auro]

VOTE: Homura
I think this and Miss Lynch both have decent chances of being scum.

Chemist, your accusation of TSE is unfair, he was pressed for reasoning and *then* said he thought I was VT over scum because of the "slip". I don't see why town shouldn't distinguish between Masons and VTs in their sorting process. I feel like you made up a reason to sit on TSE's wagon.

[Auro]

I'm townreading a lot of the active posters, primarily.
Homura is coasting on the TSE attack.
Miss Lynch's opening posts are scummy, she "skims" the game and votes Aldusskel without any explanation.

My play might not match your expectations of my townplay, by the way - I'm a lot less serious about this game

[Auro]

VOTE: Homura
because rebellion was a mistake

I did nothing wrong.

VOTE: TSE

I’m not buying your Auro town read. Anyone could have easily said what Auro said regardless of alignment.

What'd you make of Auro saying it wa a valid reason to townread him?

Because there is no Mason PT according to the rules we just know alignments.
The fact he said PT makes me believe he is VT.

Why did you rule out Auro WIFOMing?

This is all Homura has to offer about the game?

[Auro]

Combine that with the lack of other meaningful content and it's scummy.

[Auro]

And yet I'm finding your tone more stiff.

*shrug* I think my tone's always like this Anything else that makes you want to scumread me?

[Auro]

Solid reasoning for Alk has already been given

You're the only vote on Alk. Maybe I missed it, where's the "solid reasoning for Alk"? Quote please.

Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Lot of words in your posts but little reasoning. Maybe show me the "solid reasons for suspicion"? Who are these several players?

[Auro]

Don't care. You mentioned there's "solid reasoning" for Ald, and I don't find that in thread.
It's not a rebuttal, it's a challenge.

[Auro]

This is implies a confession that getting townread was as much motivation as humor

There was no motivation to get townread off it. My finding that it's valid to townread someone for that doesn't imply I'm trying to get townread - especially given the below.

my awareness of this should negate any townpoints TSE did award me for it;

[Auro]

Also just because the reasons I provide aren't ones you like doesn't make any of it "little reasoning." I think it's a stretch to say I have lots of words, either.

What reasons did you provide, though?

[Auro]

AURO I WASN'T THAT FAR YET AND IT DOES MAKE ME FEEL WAY BETTER OK

I mean lol, that was just 4 posts after the previous one; I still definitely find this accusation from you odd.

[Auro]

Not really relevant but here's my counter-wiki: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Your_Vote

[Auro]

I draft this post like a jillion times when I roll scum and backspace it so my heart feels concern

There's a specific reason I said this to Cheeky in particular. When I say I'm not going to be "as serious" I don't mean I'll troll around, just that I won't be putting in *as* much effort as Cheeky might have seen me recently put in.

[Auro]

Idk, I remember you once saying that people find your tone to be more "frozen" when you're scum. Old news?

Yeah, because I started to get these accusations thrown my way in towngames too, and I've also been townread off tone (I think) in scumgames.

[Auro]

Proposal/question: should we be posting townreads at all in this setup? Maybe we should only bring them up at L-1?

I was thinking about this earlier. Posting townreads shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't clearly bucket them into "strong" and "weak" townreads IMO.

[Auro]

you have a scummy towntone to me auro

And I have a towny scumtone apparently. I'm honestly curious about *why* people find my tone scummy - is this something you can detail? Post-game if not now.

[Auro]

Auro, are you buddying me?

Yeah, is it working?

[Auro]

Wtf are scum doing, just shoot people already lol, don't make this game boring!

[Auro]

I think a certain understanding of the quoted article doesn't oppose my stance in the slightest and even supports it

Hence "not really relevant", I just like quoting Thor wikis.

[Auro]

A feeling like you say the minimum amount you think sufficient to persuade the person, and then stop there, when you think it is plenty enough to persuade.

I've come to realize that saying a lot isn't really much more effective than saying a little. And I seem to attract many players who fit whatever I say into some scum agenda and make countless misrepresentations of my play. Attacks on me do help sort people but it's tiring.

If you do think I'm saying too little about something, feel free to ask? I won't hesitate to detail my thoughts in most cases.

[Auro]

It appears like you are scumreading players for not explaining their thoughts. Is this accurate?

Not really. In Homura's case, for having only that thought and nothing else. In Miss Lynch's case, for claiming many things which I find untrue ("solid cases on XYZ") and refusing to explain them, along with other reasons.

[Auro]

was Thor playing in late 2018/early 2019, was I really barely late in my return

Yep. I rolled scum against him in both games I had though >.> suckz

[Auro]

Also, while I'd *love* to talk about White Flag, mods said to treat it as an ongoing game, so ugh.

I want to alt-hunt Rhul. Hmm.

[Auro]

I'm confused, this appears to be reinforcing my thought rather than discounting it.

As in "not explaining thoughts" is not an isolated reason I'm scumreading them for?

[Auro]

Hello everybody, my name is Y'shtola Rhul. I am here as an observer and a scholar to the art of mafia.

I will be on standby if needed.

I'm 100% sure this doesn't come from a fresh main account. I found this and Ald's reaction to it hilarious.

[Auro]

Auro tries to accuse me of voting for Asduck with no previously stated reasoning, and backs up his claim by saying that no one is currently voting Askud. My response to him is that this looks like pointlessly flinging shit in my direction.

You're the only vote on Alk.

Maybe I missed it, where's the "solid reasoning for Alk"? Quote please.

[Auro]

Micc nommed the Open for a scummy and then said you can discuss the completed games as long as you don't discuss team dynamics

Ah sure then.

The game being part of Team Mafia made me a lot more competitive for the win, so I put in

a lot

of effort there, while being unfairly scumread by a bunch of non-cooperating townsfolk. I was telling Cheeky not to expect that level of effort and patience this game.

[Auro]

Are you calling me bad Egix??

His personal biases towards me*, he means

[Auro]

Auro tries to accuse me of voting for Asduck with no previously stated reasoning, and backs up his claim by saying that no one is currently voting Askud. My response to him is that this looks like pointlessly flinging shit in my direction.

You're the only vote on Alk.

Maybe I missed it, where's the "solid reasoning for Alk"? Quote please.

Miss Lynch, do you still stand by your response that this looks like "pointlessly flinging shit" in your direction?

[Auro]

Spoiler: Lot of Words

I think there's definitely a point to it. It's possible I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you're aware of a few things:

1. Mafia team doesn't daytalk
2. There are no nights.
1 + 2 = 3 there is no communication between the mafia players

4. An important part of mafia is sorting, and sometimes, in order to do that, it is a good idea to try and entice other players to do things by taking stances or moving votes or saying things that you might expect someone to react to a certain way as one alignment, but differently as another. Especially in a game where scum have no communication
5. A good way to make other players aware of what a certain player is doing, to remove any value from the actions of that player, to negate any nuance in a certain amount of play, to make the game difficult for town is to relentlessly ask "why." To unendingly bring up points which will very likely bring very little to any argument as to why that player is scum or should be lynched. To continuously remind other players that certain people are trying to do things that are not to be taken at face value.


Multiple times throughout the game I have pointed you in the direction you can look if you'd like to find the reasoning for my vote. Several times I've made it blatantly clear I have no intention of explaining it right now. I think you'd have a very hard time making an argument for my immediate lynch due to voting without an immediate explanation. I think your current train of questioning leads absolutely nowhere and you know it. If the statement before this one isn't true, please tell me where you do expect for it to lead. If you still are completely incapable of finding the long list of clues I've left you as to how you can find part of why I voted the way I voted, you will have to wait for the others. As it is, you have likely already ruined anything I trying to almost in its entirety. If, up until this point, I've been completely wrong about you and you fail to have the depth of understanding of mafia I had come to expect from you, I guess I will have learned the hard way.

So I'm scummy because I couldn't find said reasoning and asked you to please quote it because I seem to have missed it?
I'm not relentlessly asking "why", I'm asking "what"; since you claimed there were solid reasons/cases blah blah.
I expected it to lead to you quoting said cases and me saying "Oh yeah, okay". Right now with my line of questioning I'm expecting you to either back down on your push of me (and by this I mean the specific attacks you made on me), or attempt to justify it more.

[Auro]

The lack of response is also telling.

[Auro]

I would like to see a defense of any purpose you can assign to your line of questioning other than the conclusion I have reached, Auro. Unless your argument is that it is all pointless, and you ask for the sake of asking. Then I'd just like you to acknowledge that and we'll both be on our ways.

How I read your posting:
"Stop questioning me because I said I won't respond amicably to any of your questions! And stop scumreading me as well! Here are a ton of clues which tell you why I'm acting this way, but I also think you're scummy, and don't question me about that either. Anyone who questions me is stupid."

[Auro]

@people who played with Miss Lynch before, is she usually like this as town?

[Auro]

Auro has been defensive venom

:O

{Lot of (scummy?) words with little substance} is still where I'm at regarding her, I'm finding it difficult to search for meaning in her posts and think she's a fine lynch.

[Auro]

is roleplaying really necessary

I can't tell if the 3 players you named are your townreads or scumreads

From what she said, could be either; just that there's something from those 3 to sort from.

But to be honest I have difficulty you're as completely dense as scum as you are here. So you must understand the dilemma I'm in. Why is it so fucking difficult to give someone else space to try to read the game without throwing tantrums and insisting immediate and complete answers to every question that crosses your mind?

Am I the one throwing tantrums though?

[Auro]

Alk

Ask

Asduck

Askud

Asgard

Asgor

Asphodel

lol

[Auro]

144: Was joke? Fake sadness?
277: Curiosity?

Hmm Egix did you roll scum *again*?

[Auro]

Before questions, I'd like to hear your opinions on reading the game first.

[Auro]

Ugh I'm having trouble seeing Auro decide it's a good idea as town to post this shortly after reading Aldus' post about ML making the game toxic.

Meh. She was telling people "back off like Auro did", I didn't want anyone misconstruing my disengagement as losing my scumread. I think it's feigned toxicity anyway. Toxicity shouldn't be a reason for someone to stop calling someone else scum, f that!

[Auro]

Ugh, I wish I didn't scumread Pops.
{Pops, Suji, Egix, (ML?)}

[Auro]

I can't put it in exact words. Her reads and earlier attacks are part of it, I guess.

[Auro]

Pops, do you townread all of {Suji, Egix, ML}?
I know you said it seems like Egix is "set up to fail", what does that mean?

[Auro]

Before questions, I'd like to hear your opinions on reading the game first.

Auro continues to exhibit a line of anti-town questioning.

Yeah no it's not anti-town to try making someone more readable, fresh thoughts on entering the thread are always useful.

Look, how about you take your own advice, ignore my slot and play the game?

[Auro]

I wish you were town and I was confident you were town, Pops, cause it'd be more fun.

[Auro]

I dislike having to push you.

[Auro]

Aren't you going to have to push someone?

Of course I do, don't have to enjoy it always though?
Nothing's "bad", I would've just preferred that you were town and I townread you.

[Auro]

My legitimate stance is {Pops, Egix, Suji, maybe ML}.

[Auro]

Yes, I don't think your questions are very useful, you refused to offer fresh thoughts transparently upon entering the thread, you offered only one read and I don't vibe with that read.

[Auro]

Plus, repping out could also be weakly indicative of a scumslot.

[Auro]

I've never said that yet as town.

[Auro]

There is something unique about wishing *you* would be town? You're a competent townplayer and you've stated in the past you have way more fun as town while disguising it as scum, and I don't think we were town alongside before.

[Auro]

Auro smells a bit off. Too much off-topic stuff or jokes.

how much content would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck content?

I was just thinking of this, lolol

[Auro]

To clarify, I did not refuse. I asked to defer, and there is a difference

I think they're the same - refusal to give fresh thoughts. Deferring means you can't offer fresh thoughts.

I think associatives-based play may not be the best strategy in this setup.

Why is Rhul a scumlean? Would you join an Egix wagon?

[Auro]

You're good at town and it would be *fun* to be town with you. Hence, I dislike that I think you're scum this game.

Yeah, it was perhaps some MD thread.

[Auro]

We can agree to disagree, though I explained the rationale for deferring.

Anything can be explained away, Suji.
You said I don't "care" for your thoughts - that's not something I'd expect to have to pull out from someone, that you had posted this far with only one stated read was independently scummy to me.

[Auro]

I did not like her 380, as I believe there was enough information to make a determination of alignment in some manner.

A determination of whose alignment?

[Auro]

If she goes for Aldehyde I'mma react badly.

[Auro]

My purpose in this game is to find players with an exceptional quality aether. Whether they are warriors of light or sin eaters is sadly not up to me to decide, for I cannot tell the difference between them.

Pops, it seems obvious that Rhul means there's simply readable content from the three but isn't sure if alignment, she then says ML could "go either way" - I'm surprised you'd misinterpret this.

[Auro]

Why would I push myself

[Auro]

I did not like her 380, as I believe there was enough information to make a determination of alignment in some manner.

A determination of whose alignment?

I think you missed this

[Auro]

Makes sense, but 394 seems to break the "Mason or VT" idea.

[Auro]

Suji's case on Astroid feels problematic, I think she's reading too much into phrasing and isn't looking at his actions holistically

[Auro]

So you debuted it about a player you have no completed games with? That's what's weird to me. Did you secret alt a game with me? You played 1 day phase as a third of a slot in a large, and that's it.

Yes and no. I can see why you find it weird. I do read parts of games here and there a lot, though.

[Auro]

Maybe her read changed in the intervening 13 posts before 394?

Seems unlikely that she'd go from "exceptional quality town aether" or whatever to "kind of can go either way" in a span of 13 posts, no?

I don't think we are establishing more than that Y'shtola is an enigma, I don't try to d1 lynch enigmas

Disagree, I think Rhul is quite towny.

[Auro]

Could you outline why you think that I am wrong? What about his actions do you find indicative of Town?

I'll prolly do this later, on mobile right now and I'd have to take a closer look.

Can you answer me about which players you felt had sortable information which Rhul missed in her post?

[Auro]

We're Masons, so 100% :3
I said before I don't like to distinguish between *strong* and *not so strong* townreads in this setup, but I'll say I'm pretty confident that you're town.

[Auro]

Apologies. I did miss this. I was referring to the players that she specifically mentioned, Auro, Miss Lynch, and popsofctown.

She said it's not "up for her to decide" but was open to offering her own stances on the three, and she did when asked IIRC.

I think it's a bad reason to scumlean her for

[Auro]

Who’s masons

Me and Abracadabra, 'twas meme

[Auro]

Rhul, I see you didn't state your read on Pops - if you townread her, show me why.

[Auro]

I think I'm starting like Sujimichi.

Can you explain your Suji townread?

[Auro]

Interesting. Thank you.

[Auro]

I'm falling behind and losing motivation to care as I'm starting to get the feeling pushing anyone is actually anti-town. Maybe if we all shush then scum will have to shoot out of sheer boredom.

It's not anti-town. Masons also have the responsibility to get townread, I think everyone should just play normally.

[Auro]

Do you agree that Suji is, at best, not towny?
Should we wagon Egix?

[Auro]

You.

[Auro]

That's Suji. I feel less confident about that than Egix though.

[Auro]

Miss Lynch is overreacting. Auro has a perfectly reasonable response to what she's been posting

I'm curious about why Miss Lynch hasn't reacted to this.

I have difficulty legitimately believing you, as town, think that any player short of incredible takes the stances I do as scum.

Miss Lynch can go either way

I wonder why I'm the only slot BoP'd on her alignment.

[Auro]

I've played with Egix before and he obvtowns as town - I checked a recent towngame of his and while it wasn't *that* evident, I could still see he was gamesolving.
He's making mostly empty points here and his posts come off as forced to me, which is pretty telling.

In Suji's case I think it might be too early to make a confident judgment, apart from the Homura stuff.

You're currently here is one, but more than that, I think you're the best slot I can bounce my own thoughts off of to begin with.

[Auro]

wasn't a fan of his Miss Lynch dialogue

How would you expect me to deal with Miss Lynch?

[Auro]

Ignore her when you realise she's being antitown

But I am doing that, no? I recall she claimed I "backed down", which I did, saying I still scumread her.
Besides; how do I know that she's town and anti-town versus scum and anti-town? Do you townread her?
Should I ignore every slot that seems to feign "toxicity" upon being scumread?

If there was something inflammatory in what I said, feel free to point it out. Calling someone scummy isn't toxic.

[Auro]

self-meta question and some people hate that

On a side note, I don't know why people hate self-meta. I think self-meta is actually really insightful. *shrug*

[Auro]

Also this is a reminder that this is just a game and I don't think either of the people I'm arguing with are stupid. I think they've both made mistakes and are trying to justify the mistakes rather than simply letting them go. I like (at least what I've seen of) both Auro and Asphodel, I just disagree with the way they responded to certain things in the game and may or may not think some of them may or may not be scum.

Skimming her ISO, I actually like this post a lot.

[Auro]

You said I was being dense, etc, no? Rhul said I had a "perfectly reasonable response".
You said it's hard to believe I can scumread you given your stances. Rhul said you could go either way (which implies she isn't townreading you, which you say you must be).
So, double standards much?

[Auro]

Well, I'm dumb, I don't really know how else I could have frustrated you. Maybe I'll read our conversation again and try to figure it out. Do tell me post game.

[Auro]

I came to a different conclusion in that most of his questions, such as the majority of post 142, appear to be made with the intent to look like he is questioning, but without the intent to truly understand. His last question in post 142, for example, is a leading question with only one "correct" answer and yet he utilizes it to make it seem as if TrueSoulEnergy is Mafia "walking the line" with Auro until he needs to cast him aside.

He does something similar to Miss Lynch in post 322 using the word "weird" instead of being straightforward with assigning alignment. One could say he is guilty of doing something similar to what he accused TrueSoulEnergy doing to Auro in that he is keeping his options open with regard to Miss Lynch (and it is not lost on me the humor in that he is lightly attacking Miss Lynch for attacking Auro and not voting him whilst keeping his vote on Egix96).

I thought you were referring to 143 as a question and thought you were misreading phrasing. I should have read that paragraph closer, sorry about that. Looking back, I think you were actually referring to post 140.
Anyway, it still didn't bother me at the time, and I'll explain.
I don't read that question ("What if Auro does the scummiest shit ever") as a leading question to nail TSE. It feels more like question from incredulity at TSE's stance of calling me a functional IC for D1 from one post. "Seriously?" and " " seem to be relevant context-setters here. Also notice he moved off TSE here:

ugh that is really different from here. plus, I'm getting reminded of town TSE during marathon weekend + me scumreading him for his playstyle rather than it being truly scum-indicative.

unvote

Given the context and his eventual shift from the TSE attack, I don't think that "leading question" can only have scummy intent.
You say he's "lightly attacking Miss Lynch" - he states in 432 that he isn't scumreading her, rather just disagrees with her scumhunting methods? His interactions with her are mostly appeals to tone it down. I don't find any unreasonable posts. His keeping the Egix vote isn't inconsistent with his posts around ML. Also, what does "keeping his options open" mean? How does one differentiate between scum "keeping their options open", versus town making light pushes but hasn't definitively sorted a slot yet?

My latter argument still holds, in that he seems generically towny in a holistic sense.

[Auro]

Miss Lynch, assuming all actual groups (Masons, VTs, Scum) are playing properly, the groups you notice in game will be a mixture of these groups.
You're going into like 4-level associations (Auro<-defended by TSE<-Attacked by XYZ<-Attacked by ABC), each link in that chain becomes weaker and weaker.
It's easiest if you simply vote for people with individual scum equity and wait for scumflips before associative hunting / grouping.
Not being transparent in your thoughts make it harder for others to develop a read on you... since it's not difficult for scum to take random stances and refuse to explain them, while the nuances in town stances help recognize town.

[Auro]

pressure off of any scum to figure out why I voted Albany

Why would scum bother, if no one's joining you? It's kind of more useful to present your case, get people to sheep it, and then watch scum react to it, no?

[Auro]

Am I familiar with your main?

[Auro]

Any thoughts you're willing to share about other slots?

[Auro]

I don't really know what's up with me this month, I feel like I'm in the middle of a big slump. It might be because of my recent winning streak going to my head, dare I suspect.

If you're town I'm gonna need you to get deep into the game and obvtown, buddy
Was it a scum winning streak?

[Auro]

So you disagree with my post about your Asterisk case?
Can you explain your scumread on me?

[Auro]

Alabama's name is just hard to remember lol. Aldusskel?

[Auro]

Pops, this "if I had to vote scum in my next post" thing - have you said this as town before?

[Auro]

Oh my.

>Your being aware of Homura's alignment shouldn't have a bearing on the weakness of the case
>Homura having an ISO of three posts coasting on one singular angle is objectively scummy, and wasn't weak reasoning at that point of time to build a wagon
>A rational explanation for not providing fresh thoughts as town doesn't suffice when it's beneficial for scum to do so
>I forgot about the Abraham case, what's the scum motivation when I can make something up as scum anyway? This is not a possibility you considered?

[Auro]

pls no self meta

It's easier than me searching it up myself, if you simply quote instances. This would help me understand that such a phrase isn't a scumtell for you, thus helping me form a more accurate read; "self meta is awful" doesn't apply here.

If you don't recall, that's cool!

[Auro]

@Pops you were explicitly asked that question in your citation, so the context differs from here - where you offered it unprompted to a question of who's more likely mafia

I'll just mark this for a later look if I have the energy to do so

[Auro]

@Suji: she returned to the thread to make her second and third posts respectively. Those were coast posts. She could've posted something else in #2 and #3 of her ISO.

I find the rep out only weakly scum indicative, exactly because there could be a number of other reasons for doing so.

[Auro]

I do not expect you to agree with them and, as you said previously, anything can be explained away, Auro.

Yes, but not all disagreements boil down to subjective differences in opinion.

[Auro]

I think that it has reached the end of its productiveness at this point

I don't think so! I want to locate our sources of disagreement on a more atomic level, but I need to sleep, so tomorrow. I won't forget

[Auro]

This is ridiculously inductive and like I don't think you think this. You're not even feigning linking this to my win condition, and it's sketchy as all get out that you're waiting to see how other players react to this angle before you double down on it by "looking into it", which isn't actually possible, there's no way you'd have copious time to read all of my games ever and investigate other places I have or haven't done this before.

If you statistically did this many times as scum and never as town, why do I need to bother "linking" it with wincon? "Inductive" what?

I have access to the search tool. If I find in my searches that you've said it many times as scum and I don't see town games, it's indicative there aren't any. There could be some distinct phrasing that happens coincidentally (moreso with the skew in observed results) but then the burden of proof would fall to you.

Obviously I'm not going to read every game of yours.

[Auro]

You've been extremely political about my slot all game, saying I'm scummy and telegraphing it's a shame that you will have to push me at an undisclosed point in the future

Political? That's definitely an interesting accusation. I have multiple scumreads, am I automatically political about all the ones I'm not voting at the moment? I didn't say it'd be a shame to push you in the future, I was talking about the present.

[Auro]

I'm a believer in statistics but in stats class they told us the bare minimum rule of thumb for a sampling process to at least somewhat have statistical significance was n=30, and I really doubt you'll get 30 samples.

Lol that's way too high, I think n=5 scumgames with 0 towngames would be decent; you know you have to factor in the priors of number of town/scum games, right? With a much smaller number of scum games, the number of samples to make a sound inductive conclusion should be smaller as well. N=30 obviously isn't universal, c'mon now

[Auro]

Sure thanks. I have a flight to catch and have to wake up in 3 hours anyway >.> Mafia is too addictive and I should prolly take a break again after I finish my current games.

On that note, I'll probably be only sparsely active till Tuesday.

[Auro]

He's only talking about the pages mentioned before

[Auro]

{Pops, Suji, Egix, Woodchuck} 4/4

[Auro]

Auro smells a bit off. Too much off-topic stuff or jokes.

This pop-in is so bad.

[Auro]

Hot topic of discussion is scumtell statistics
How many instances of a certain behaviour should you observe in scum vs town games in someone's meta for it to be definitive evidence?
Pops and Woodchuck say 30, I think that's incorrect intuitively, in that that thumb rule doesn't apply in this case

[Auro]

Ah. Well, if you change it from a "behaviour" to "specific set of words/phrases" which hasn't been called out before?

[Auro]

Interesting
I wonder what would constitute "definitive evidence" for someone being scum at all, in a non mechanical sense

[Auro]

Then replace "definitive" with "convincing"
We indeed are.

[Auro]

I think conscious behaviours are more likely to be manipulable by someone self-aware though, as you pointed out before

[Auro]

Do you study chemistry? What's your read on Aldehyde?

[Auro]

Miss Lynch gave me slight Nancy vibes but probably not
Yes, Aldusskel

[Auro]

Okay wtf I'm very surprised!

[Auro]

but at the same time it isn’t alignment indicative.

[Auro]

You're less confident about Suji than Egix, yet you're voting Suji?

My vote isn't always going to be a reflection of my "most confident" scumread. I actually feel more confident about Suji now

[Auro]

And yet,
VOTE: Egix
Time to consolidate.

[Auro]

Is this your pick for the scumteam?

Vanity guess, yup, I think Chemist and Miss Lynch could be shuffled into it

[Auro]

1¥£#¥$

Very interesting.

Indeed. Farewell, Mason buddy.

[Auro]

Subjective evidence is not proof of an affirmative, but it can accurately portray a negative

Regardless of what the presented self-meta is, you can usually tell how genuine it is, and that's what makes self-meta insightful in some cases.

[Auro]

I think she's town and I love her profile picture. How about you?

[Auro]

I remembered liking her early posts, I checked her ISO - I don't find them as towny as I found them then, and can't recall why I did. However, I do like her questions and stances, so, eh.

[Auro]

I noticed that. But I also felt that scum could lurk and take shots - for example, I recall CheekyTeeky as being a much more active player than she is this game.

[Auro]

At the time I posted that, Hectic hadn't updated his post about the dayvig yet, it was some gibberish symbols.

[Auro]

I don't have enough familiarity with his towngame to know whether or not certain things I've seen him do as scum, he would do as town as well.

This seems to imply that you find certain patterns in my play which you've seen in my scumgames, but are unsure whether they're actually AI, and thus don't scumread me. Can you list out these things?

[Auro]

At the time I posted that, Hectic hadn't updated his post about the dayvig yet, it was some gibberish symbols.

Oh. 5.5 previous day - yeah, not compromise, consolidate.

[Auro]

You disagree that the pop in is bad?

[Auro]

Talk to me about Suji

I will, in a bit

[Auro]

Dissent isn't bad, but the particular accusation thrown was bad. It was the only thing he said, and it's pretty obvious to anyone who read the thread that I have a lot more serious content than "jokes".

[Auro]

Suji, is your current read on me still the same as before?

[Auro]

because it is mimicry of scumhunting but functions specifically on which alignment he needs for me to be.

I don't quite grok the latter part, Pops. Can you explain it?

I can't call you town based on this, because your saying it as town makes it NAI; and if I want to present it as a scumtell I'll have to present evidence, which can easily be seen through if it's misleading; especially if I'm scum who knows you're town making it highly unlikely I can find any evidence at all. In short, this provides no potential weight whatsoever to an alignment read on you from a scum!Auro perspective.

As town, just the fact that it's an "unusual comment" is enough for me to spend a trivial amount of time checking it across your games; even though it's *likely* you say it as town, it is still *plausible* that it's statistically a phrasing you commonly pick up as scum, no? So is spending that effort there, given I already suspect you're scum, worthless? Asking you about it just gives you the chance to instantly stop that line of exploration, this saving time for me. "function of which alignment he needs me to be" doesn't make sense.

What makes for a "strong townread"? If you think my scungame's lynch resilience is that high, it suggests you believe that as scum I know what to do to get town read enough to make my lynch harder. Am I being generically towny but it's something I can emulate as scum thus not warranting "strong townreads" , or do you believe my content itself isn't towny on an objective level?

[Auro]

Copying my vote would be way better life choices than this Egix thing, which will disrupt the dog cat balance of the thread until such a time as we kill CSF, and her underpayment catch up was pretty towny to me.

Do you have a read on Egix? Can you explain it?

[Auro]

I think you slightly misapprehend my point in that the malicious motive I'm mainly interested in is "Auro's desire to look town and not die", not "Auro's desire to successfully get pops mislynched." The ways it will be ineffectual would be really relevant if I was focused on the second one, but my concern is about the first one.

I understand the first part, I was only wondering about what you meant by the latter part of the original argument.

It is something I could fake as scum. If it's an empty question as town, that provides strength to the likelihood that I did fake it; and you don't accept my rationale behind the question. That's fine.

[Auro]

You could also at least help me lynch Auro and if he flips the way I think he will it'd be pretty unlikely you're on his side

Interesting, what makes you believe Yshtola and I don't share alignments?

[Auro]

Nevermind that question.

[Auro]

similar to a normal game that guarantees a lynch by a majority.

We still do have a guaranteed majority lynch.

[Auro]

I mean a majority still guarantees a lynch. So you didn't read the scum dayvig mechanic?
I look forward to your reassessed read on me.

[Auro]

I also really appreciate the comment on Auro, because it's a thought that was hiding in the back of my mind

You think the things I'm doing well benefit town even if I'm scum?

[Auro]

I still don't. >.> Like the mechanic just feels like an add-on and I don't see why it affects analysis, but okay.

[Auro]

Well I know you sometimes have a tendency to distance/bus so yeah possibly. Even so, if you are scum it will possibly become apparent in lategame anyway.

We have three games where I was scum and you were town.

First one, I did no bussing, you thought I was town throughout.
Second one, I got you lynched, and bussed my buddy only because it was absolutely necessary given the suspicion on me.
Third one, I distanced but didn't bus; you thought I was town throughout, and my team had a perfect win.

What informs you that I have a tendency to bus?
What informs you that I will become apparent if scum in lategame?

[Auro]

It's not fallacious if he does!

If I thought it was fallacious I'd have pointed it out when it was originally made. Given Egix's history with me, I don't see how Egix has this opinion.

[Auro]

Oh God.

[Auro]

Hectic's last post overall was around 7:30 am my time and he posted the kill at 3:30pm, a lot of slots posted in that timeframe. There's no reason to single out CSF. Pops' theory seems wild to me on first read.

[Auro]

Scum correctly shot Aldusskel D1.

[Auro]

The main idea behind the post originally being meant to be a VC is probably how he didn't lock the thread while it was pending, which many mods would do if it was a daykill submitted before even the placeholder had appeared.

He also locked the thread after updating that post for a while. I think he probably meant to have locked it before, probably.

[Auro]

Didn’t Egix get lynched?

Nope. Suji is the correct lynch today I think, I've the highest confidence in her scumflip than the rest.

It sucks that the towniest people happen to be Masons... Town should be putting in more effort.

[Auro]

Ok I think Auro, Egix, Chemist, TSE and maybe pops are town.

This is a bad readslist.

VOTE: Egix

[Auro]

I'm not completely sure if Egix takes that panic shot. Hmm.

[Auro]

new information to inform his reads

I don't think that information is particularly valuable
TSE, stop differentiating between Masons and non Masons

[Auro]

Auro and he never dayvigs here even as scum

Hm

[Auro]

That would, as TSE pointed, suggest Egix as scum?

[Auro]

Damn

[Auro]

Whoever the shooting scum is... Wow.

[Auro]

Your scum

If she thinks I never dayvig as scum here, I don't know if she does - even if Egix is her buddy, he had only both of our votes on him.

[Auro]

Guys.... What you're doing won't really help

[Auro]

VOTE: Pops

[Auro]

I think consider me gladiating Pops

[Auro]

Oh. That's wild.

Probably all the shots were Cheeky on a tear, then?

I think Cheeky took all four shots. Wonderful play though.

[Auro]

I noticed that. But I also felt that scum could lurk and take shots - for example, I recall CheekyTeeky as being a much more active player than she is this game.

Called it!

[Auro]

@TSE no, I'm gladiating Pops again probably

[Auro]

Miss Lynch could be a Mislynch.
I'm simply *way* more confident in Pops.

[Auro]

Why do you think I am scum?

Weren't you the one who wanted to gladiate me at one point? Weren't you OK when I gladiated you before Cheeky's death?

[Auro]

How does Cheeky's flip clear Pops at all?

[Auro]

Ugh I wish Masons had mafia shots

[Auro]

Chemist could be scum yes.
Egix is probscum yes.

[Auro]

I am at least a little shaken about putting together the pieces on CT deciding to shoot when we were crossvoting compared to some later time.

Cheeky's shots were pretty yolo, I don't think there was a good gamestate reason for shooting Woodchuck. Still, even if her shot was due to gladiate it would suggest we're SvT anyway

[Auro]

Klick, TSE, CSF town
Miss Lynch I don't know.
Pops, Suji, Chemist is my current guess for the scumteam

[Auro]

Feel like that’s something they would mention in scum PT

Dude they don't have a PT, iirc

[Auro]

And it's cheeky, she'd be competent with maintaining associations

[Auro]

If you flip town I'll gladly be BoP'd.

[Auro]

I forgot Egix, I think he can be interchanged with Chem

[Auro]

I forgot Egix, I think he can be interchanged with Chem

^
A bit busy right now, I'll be back in a while

[Auro]

Pops' reads don't make sense, the reasons she was pushing me for I disliked, some attacks of hers felt made up (accusing me of trying to get townread with the gambit early game), I feel like she realized gladiating me is a bad idea now - if she was curious about my scumread on her she should've asked way before right?
Sorry for thought dump, will organize later

[Auro]

VOTE: Egix