Newbie 1989 (Game over!)

[Menalque]

Hello friends

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hello friends

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Inb4 warning for tiny text

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I

Am
Mason

Am

Mason
Am
Sunshine
Only
Mason

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Oh hey wow would you look at that crazy and totally meaningless collection of words and letters

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You know it doesn’t technically count as a VC if you take the penultimate post before it right

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As a pagetop, I mean

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Anyway, I should introduce myself for those who don’t know me

[Menalque]

You see, I came here from the ToS Forum Mafia section. For about a year I played Mafia on that forum, and by the end I was without a doubt the most skilled active player there. Eventually the disparity was so vast that I had to be banned to keep things fair for the rest of the players (officially it was for abrasiveness, as many of their players suffer from SSS and my personality conflicted with that).

Anyway, I always claim day one (and yes it was serious, for those that didn't understand that), and press others for their claims. I do this for the purpose of analyzing the behavior of others to determine if they are scum or town. Already I'm picking apart your posts and those of others for a level of analysis that is probably higher than you could comprehend.

[Menalque]

I’ll also provide some thoughts on my play and for general optimal play for you newbies amongst us

[Menalque]

I slowly become meaner the better I am, I think

one of the best things I learned was to abandon good/optimal play (and how well/poorly people are playing) and think about why the player you're looking at is acting a certain way.. spending a huge amount of time empathising with how people are posting and trying to see ways in which they could be town has been working really well for me.

I think your experience catches up to you sometimes. Since you've experienced eras in site culture where policy was considered really important, I think you have a firmer stance about "good"/optimal play than quite a lot of us. Technically that's not a negative thing. But I can see why it could get in the way of read accuracy.


Some people still freeze up and make decisions based on who played "better" (or who they'd "rather lose to"), rather than who they think is scum. It happens at nearly all levels of play, I think. I can definitely see how human nature and instinct lends itself to reading people like that.

I am half asleep here so mayyy be rambling a bit. Sorry

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

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Hello, clidd

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You must be looking for my father, guy in the pirate hat? I’m Menalque Jr. Pleased to make your acquaintance

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Got any reads for me, clidd?

Also why aren’t you voting?

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Why do those characteristics come from a townie mentality?

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Hello doobie, where are you from?

I will allow someone else to explain that to you

[Menalque]

Information

--> two mechanically proven towns.

Is Menalque a proven town just because he said he was or is there more to that assumption?

Yes I am a proven town let’s just forget about that for now and not talk about it apart from to remind people that I am proven town

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Yoink

No pagetops for datisi

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Hey, @72 do you have any experience of playing scum?

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What are your reads on the other players doobie?

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Have you read any guidance on scumhunting or anything?

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I think I may be close to a PoE solve but we’ll see if I get more confident in that or less as game goes on

Also I need walrus to post first

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Interesting

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I think this is tentatively +town for the dragon

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Idk why the dragon fake CC’s me unless he’s trying to create a confused nightstate where I may not be the NK tbh

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I would like to get a firmer read on walrus but I really think I’m near to a PoE solve

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One word.
From this bad claim.
Y/N Menalque Scum?

N

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I never trade queens

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Icon why is lotus scum?

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There is precisely zero reason for scum!me to claim masons within my first 5 posts

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Which I assume you would get if you thought about it for more than about 5 seconds

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Obviously

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So can you now unvote me and say why lotus is scum

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Stop doing this

It was useful when you were trying to WIFOM scum on who the PR is but it’s becoming increasingly less so the more that you make this about you and me and less about finding scum

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Lotus is kinda close to scum region but I’m not sure he’s in it

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Icon, atar, doobie — town
Clidd — probtown
Walrus — true null
Lotus — PoE
72, elmo — scum

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Again, there is literally no reason for scum!me to claim masons so can you stop being dense

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It’s never worth it to trade 1-for-1 scum-for-town so scum!me would be making an objectively terrible decision

Not to mention that I’d be claiming something literally unconfirmable as scum thereby guaranteeing my lynch AND my partner’s lynch in the case of a CC

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So again, I appreciate you trying to draw the NK off me and that’s not a terrible play, but your focusing on this vs sorting is not helpful

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Excellent, so Elmo is outed scum from his reaction

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i also thought his 'claim' was a nice little diversion away from lotus

Yes, a diversion from my 3rd top scumread this is such a big brain play from scum!me

Fucking a, icon

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Yoink

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The only gain to claim is protect the actual masons.

only ur not protecting actual masons by claiming that because:

1) other masons will go FUCK HE LYING MUST BE SCUM LYNCHHHHH

2) menal doesn't know there are masons unless he actually is a mason. therefore he risks pinging other power roles, who will either CC him and push him, or investigate him at night which is usuless if menal is town, diverting power away from scum.

so yeah

this isn't town

If I were fakeclaiming and not true claiming, then masons or PRs should know that this is obviously a ridiculous claim to come from scum and is designed to bait the scum NK

But ofc it’s not that, because I am in fact a mason

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fuck

lol

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Official Vote Count 1.05

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Menalque

(2): Iconeum, Elmo TeH AzN

Iconeum

(1): Doobietime

Menalque

(1): Lotus Aura

Atarashi Hajimari

(1): 72offsuit

Not Voting

(4): clidd, WizenedWalrus, Menalque, Atarashi Hajimari

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-03-15 01:30:00).

Mod notes:

• Menalque replaces GuiltyLion.
  
• WizenedWalrus replaces stormey815, awaiting confirmation.
  
• Iconeum standing V/LA weekends.

I’m impressed that I’m so present in this game that there are two separate wagons on me

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Dragon boi

Fucking

S t o p

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This is moronic icon

I am not a mason, I’m a VT

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If we lose this game it’s entirely on you for trying to quickwagon me while I should have been obvtown fypov

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I kept the claim up for that long because I was hoping you get over yourself and realise that that obviously wasn’t a claim from scum!me but from VT me baiting the NK

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Especially considering that you acknowledged that possibility and I was softing it at you as hard as fucking possible

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@mena:

Why didn't you claim the instant you replaced into the last game?

Cause I was actually a mason lmao

[Menalque]

Ye, hate these arrogant plays.
Doesn't help town.
VOTE: Menal

Crap reads list too

What about me being arrogant makes me scum

Why is my readslist crap

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Lotus/72?

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lotus feeling opportunistic in taking my claim at face value and trying to push icon (the main person SRing them) for it

72 is just a really shitty hop on

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Just going to call this like I do every game. Lists are worthless. This is turning into WIFOM from Mena.
Every post is looking worse then the last. Fake claim or not. I don't like it nor the reasoning
VOTE: Menal

The only gain to claim is protect the actual masons.

This is like “Vote the person bc they’re playing badly” logic instead of actually voting for scum, but town do that quite a lot

Excellent, so Elmo is outed scum from his reaction

From a reaction that you have to claim something 5 posts in the game. Get out.

Him being this pissy is maybe town? Should still die next if lotus/72 isn’t it

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Hmmm, i kinda feel worse about icon now

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Idk simultaneously he’s scummy because the last time he shitpushed me this opportunistically he was scum

But I don’t think scum him claims masons with his buddy to get me lynched?

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So probably this is a game where icon is just playing really badly

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Nevertheless, if icon alive at lylo then always lynch

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Hmmm, i kinda feel worse about icon now

come at me bro

Nah, you’re town for today on balance

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Idk simultaneously he’s scummy because the last time he shitpushed me this opportunistically he was scum

But I don’t think scum him claims masons with his buddy to get me lynched?

i tend to shitpush as scum, yeah

but this is a straight out CC to you here, nothing shitty about it

No, it’s a shitpush

If you were actually thinking clearly and evaluating, you’d see I’m town

There was no motivation for scum!me to claim masons

particularly not masons

on D1 in my opening salvo of posts

[Menalque]

i literally gave you the option to withdraw and you didn't

you brought this upon yourself

Yes because at that point you’d already outed yourself and I was trying to give you the chance to realise what I was doing and to go with it so you wouldn’t be locked as the NK tonight

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Imagine thinking that this is my scumgame

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What exactly is my plan here icon?

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Trade scum 1 for 1 for a town PR?

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That’s a pretty shitty deal, especially as you know that scum!me would be counting on myself to carry the game not sacrificing myself D1

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Not to be a bitch. But can you not refer to me as a he. Kthx. Trivial but it's really just getting under my skin.

Ahhh, fuck, sorry. I’m normally better with pronouns. I’ll be more careful

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Imagine thinking that this is my scumgame

imagine fake claiming a power role in a newbie game on day 1 in one of your first posts as town

PRECISELY BECAUSE I THOUGHT YOU KNEW ME WELL ENOUGH TO REALISE THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING I WOULD DO AS SCUM

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Why did I do it?

(1) I had the idea from pure boi doing it with me in a game that just finished — clidd can confirm

(2) I felt like it, and I don’t need to offer more justification than that

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“You’d obvtown like crazy”

What like I’m doing now you mean

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PRECISELY BECAUSE I THOUGHT YOU KNEW ME WELL ENOUGH TO REALISE THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING I WOULD DO AS SCUM

i would actually argue that I think i know you well enough that you wouldn't do this as town

#town!mena.never.does.that

[Menalque]

What exactly is my plan here icon?

i've really wondered about this

scum!you draws out the real claim, and then does exactly what you are doing now: playing the victim. Making it the power role's fault for not playing along.

town!you fake claims to draw a NK? No. Town!you plans on staying alive and solving/winning this game because you think u can do better for town then simply eating a bullet at night.
And if ur plan was to eat a bullet, you wouldn't claim a PR. You would obv!town like crazy so scum would have to kill you.

How does me believing the game to be PoE solvable D1 affect this

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(2) I felt like it, and I don’t need to offer more justification than that

agreed, and i even gave you a window there when i said there was exactly 1 reason that i could see town!menal doing this

feeling like it/shitposting/having fun whatever

and when i called you out and you would have answered this i'd have townread you for it

but you kept insisting and i think it comes from scum more then town

Yes, because I was hoping you’d realise what I was doing and go with it so I wouldn’t have to talk to you like this now and out you as the real PR

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Also, scum!me would already know you were the PR by that point? So why would I not just recant and then NK you

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you think newbies are gonna see what you are doing and play along?

no

you would destroy a newbie power role player for no reason other then shenanigans

This is quite a fair point, that I hadn’t totally considered

But I also think that a newbie might have the forebearance to think “why is this player claiming this?” And to realise that masons is literally the worst claim to make as scum because it means you have to get to 5p lylo with your partner, without hitting a PR at night, and without anyone believing a real PR over you

So I would expect them to probe the claim, maybe be sceptical, but not necessarily immediately out as a CC

[Menalque]

i really don't know what you were trying to achieve menal

if any of the new players were a power role, they wouldn't know what to do

they'd have to either fish something like 'ehm guys should the actual pr counterclaim if there is one hahahah gettit hmm?'
or full blown counterclaim you resulting in this situation as well

there's not a lot of worlds where you achieve anything good from this

if ur actually town then this was out of place and lessons are hopefully learned

and ofcourse there's just a world where this is scum!you going for a big brain play

I think we disagree on how to approach a newbie

I’m here to have fun

People will fakeclaim in non-newbies, sometimes to the advantage of town, sometimes to its detriment

Newbies are here to learn, and the truth is that people do not play “by the book” very much at all. And doing so is a really easy way to get duped by scum who play “by the book”

[Menalque]

There is literally no worse claim that scum!mena could make than masons

T/F?

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Newbies are here to learn, and the truth is that people do not play “by the book” very much at all. And doing so is a really easy way to get duped by scum who play “by the book”

i've got a perfect lesson for them right here

What are you even saying

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Pretty sure that about 80% of the last few pages is just icon feeling like he needs to show the world he’s got a bigger one than me instead of actually taking a step back and looking at my play in which case he’d know that I’m incredibly obvtown rn and we could get on to working together to solve the game

[Menalque]

It’s your fault if you

continue

to not let it go despite it having become obvious what my alignment is and that that play wouldn’t come from scum

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However much you may think it was a bad play

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At least 52 sounds a lot better.

Lion - I disagree as town I read the games and try to catch up when I can. I didn't post here because of [Redacted] was nearing deadline and needed to catch up with that after a bad night of drinking but was prod dodging as well. Yes bad reasoning but what can we do.

I will say I hate lotus with the oh I was pushed to L-2 and scum wouldn't jump on it this early which just has me ask. Do. You think your wagon is scum driven then? Tiger gets me on that one it's like your sweating a bit over there.

Also. Lotus I disagree as any vote can make pressure regardless of the day or time. Everyone acts differently depending on even the slightest votes.

Get a town vibe here.
In particular the questioning of Lotus on the wagon tjats formed on them and the composition (alignment-wise) of said wagon.

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

what happened here 72?

[Menalque]

For the moment, I'll go with VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN: as others have pointed out, she seemed to get unduly flustered by Menalque's SR of her.

I know this is super early day 1, but this honestly feels like a bus-vote to me.

I'll vote Player X "for the moment" - a vote just for the record, but not for pressure - votes are meant to ramp up pressure on potential scum.
Basically forecasting that your vote has little oomph/intent behind it, gives me a scummy vibe.

why does your head go to bus vote if you have an independent town-lean on Elmo

how do the two play off each other in your mind

[Menalque]

Ye, hate these arrogant plays.
Doesn't help town.
VOTE: Menal

Crap reads list too

What about me being arrogant makes me scum

Why is my readslist crap

also, answer these

[Menalque]

and I mean answer them now, if you disappear and come back in 2 hours with a detailed and thought out answer you're scum claiming

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so if your logic is walrus!probscum and therefore Elmo is +scum equity, why is Elmo still in your top town tier as of 344?

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clidd, current take on 72 when you get here

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so then why include that comment as you were voting me, seeing as the implication was that a part of your vote on me was a distaste for my "arrogant" play

what are your conclusions from the reactions to your bandwagon vote on me then?

why would having town!you at the bottom of my reads list make it crap? what do you think of the rest of it?

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how are you coming up with those percentage numbers?

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okay, what about everything in 355

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nah, go sleep, you're good for now, I need to sort other people

[Menalque]

It’s basically confirmed because (1) scum would never fakeclaim my mason claim bc they’d be guaranteed to be lynched either today or tomorrow, so it only makes sense for icon to hard CC if he knows I’m not a mason — the only way he could know that is if if he’s a town PR or scum BUT if he’s scum and he CCs then if I stick to my claim and he sticks to his, eventually the real town power role outs and he dies

(2) scum fakeclaiming mason is the worst possible claim because your security as a mason is having your partner reveal as well. The only options then are that the two players are masons, or they’re both scum. If they’re both scum, it’s insanely high risk, and in fact probably losing on D1, because as soon as one of the team dies and is revealed as scum, it confirms the person who said they were masons with them as scum too

So like there are possible universes where icon is scum but they’re so remote they don’t really bear thinking sbout

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Lotus Aura has requested replacement. Searching...

F

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VLA until Sunday pls dats

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VLA until Sunday pls dats

next Sunday, to clarify

Got it. - D

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doobie is obvtown and we're not lynching there

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why are you townreading atar? I'm very conflicted there

[Menalque]

there is no sense of logical

/townie

thinking

in those reads from doobie

this is why doobie is town, btw

[Menalque]

my issue with atar is that it's felt like they've sometimes been pushing stuff that they thought was pushable, instead of actually thinking about whether it's scum

see: the push on eqsy

if you're hard town there I'll go with you though

thoughts on clidd?

[Menalque]

72 is a good lynch, but idk about the partner

I was thinking Elmo earlier but they kind of seemed town in some of their stuff?

and their push on walrus makes me think it's not walrus, also I don't particularly read walrus as anything yet

[Menalque]

Stop voting for town icon

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Elmo doobie Icon town

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Who else

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Icon thinks atar is town so he can get a pass but should be reconsidered if lylo is reached

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So all scum in (72, walrus, clidd, jormen)

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Doubt that 72 and walrus are scum together

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No one is voting for you?

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Oh right lol

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What do you think of walrus and clidd?

[Menalque]

I will try to catch up properly later today, if not then it’ll be tomorrow

Jormen would be okay potentially

I think I prefer 72 or maybe clidd

I feel like clidd has been very obviously town in his other games and he’s not here which is making me want to lynch him

[Menalque]

and yeah my doobie case stands:

you claim mason and I counterclaim you: doobie townreads you for the fake claim and scumreads me on the counterclaim

i don't like it

I think you dislike it because (1) it’s very out there and (2) it’s aimed at you and that’s affecting your judgement

I don’t think scum think they’re getting a lynch on either of us and I don’t think a new new player tries that

[Menalque]

i think this is clidd town meta?

He seems very passive here in a way that I don’t think he generally is from meta

[Menalque]

That’s a weird kill

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Doobie can go back onto the table but I still think she’s townie

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VOTE: 72

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Ugh

Actually it’s probably just doobie

VOTE: doobie

[Menalque]

She has some really awful associatives with lotus and I think she needs to die today

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Also clidd dying I’m p sure is a strongly newb!scum indicative kill

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Which fits with this being her first game

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I think that going doobie->72->walrus will be winning

If anyone disagrees say why

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Doobie has awful associatives with lotus!slot

72 kind of tried to deflect away when the wagon started going

Elmo has posts that I read as towny vs walrus not so much

[Menalque]

vc

I just want it on the record that I knew you were waiting for this and let you take it

[Menalque]

I strongly suspect that the game ends by lynching in (doobie, 72) tho

[Menalque]

Or doobie->72 anyway

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Vote for doobie please elmo

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I would like to see walrus, doobie and 72 trying to sort each other today

[Menalque]

Why do you think clidd was killed atar?

[Menalque]

Also I’m very obviously town lol

[Menalque]

L-1

anyone who hammers this preemptively is scumclaiming and dies next

[Menalque]

I've disregarded no one with the exception of Menal. This game has just been very weird looking at it from it nk to the claims to just where we stand now.
It's paper tossing

You think I might be scum?

You heard it here first, I am townier then conf!town

[Menalque]

Ugh, UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

Feel better doobie

[Menalque]

I feel like we should lynch doobie but I also really don’t want to lynch doobie

[Menalque]

VOTE: 72

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Nope

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No more pagetops for datisi

[Menalque]

Why would I let you have pagetops dear

[Menalque]

I just drove over a thousand kilometres in the last 16 or so hours and haven’t slept more than 15 minutes in the last ~27 and I’m being held at the ferry port because the french government hasn’t confirmed yet that it will let brits go home

I’m actually doing surprisingly well considering all of that but haven’t really got time to play the game yet and prob won’t until tomorrow

[Menalque]

more votes on 72 pls

[Menalque]

icon do you not think that doobie's last post before reping out was townlockable?

[Menalque]

you forgot Elmo too

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icon do you not think that doobie's last post before reping out was townlockable?

yes but everything before that... wasn't

yeah, but the point is that doesn't matter if that one post was

like, someone can be scummy all day but if they have one moment which is just genuinely, blazingly town or that makes it really obvious they're uninformed then that should be weighted more heavily than all the scummy shit they did before then imo

[Menalque]

elmo townie

boi

gurl

she wouldn't be bussing that hard on day 1 would she?

ehhh I didn't feel it was that hard but there was other stuff that seemed like townposting

ugh, okay

intent

get your last posts in bois and gurls, I don't think there's much benefit to town to dragging this out longer

[Menalque]

don't you just think it's BP, 72?

[Menalque]

VOTE: BP

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this is a hammer btw

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like BP is very dead

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might meme in here until we get a flip

[Menalque]

I’m kinda back

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We’re in a weird world

I looked at a bunch of newbies where scum was lynched on D1 and the overwhelming trend was for scum to be off wagon on D1

That’s not the case this game

When they were on wagon they were normally on at the end of the wagon but hmm

[Menalque]

There are, i think, reasons to believe that to not be the case

I think the answer is /probably/ still 72 but I don’t really like it

I wish we’d lynched 72 yesterday tbh, but the apathy was killing the game and I didn’t think I was gonna swing people off BP

[Menalque]

I think the optimal is if the mason only claims if they are in a situation where they’ll be lynched if not

[Menalque]

We’re in a weird world

I looked at a bunch of newbies where scum was lynched on D1 and the overwhelming trend was for scum to be off wagon on D1

That’s not the case this game

When they were on wagon they were normally on at the end of the wagon but hmm

@people asking what I don’t like

[Menalque]

No, you misunderstand

I mean newbies where the D1 lynch was on scum specifically

[Menalque]

My point is that this game is weird because scum didn’t avoid the wagon D1 and I’m not sure what that means yet

[Menalque]

We never lynch Walrus.

VOTE: 72off

why

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fuck I really wish icon hadn't outed himself bc I'd quite like to talk to someone who I trust to be town

[Menalque]

explain

[Menalque]

that was @atar

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intent, claim when you get here if you’re the mason 72

[Menalque]

I just don't really wanna try to solve today because I think it's just gonna mess with me

[Menalque]

I don't really read 72 as town, I don't wanna out the mason if that's still possible

[Menalque]

like if we make it to tomorrow and the mason is alive then the game is a lock as far as I'm concerned

72 is just a liability to be mislynched in lylo at this point so we resolve that and then go from there tomorrow if the game doesn't end

[Menalque]

I mean 50/50 chance of winning mechanically tomorrow seems like a pretty good gamble

[Menalque]

like if you do flip town and it's (1scum, 1vt, 1mason) in (WW, Elmo, atar) then if scum have a 50/50 chance of hitting the mason

if they decide to kill me instead of mason hunting then the mason outs and has a 50/50 chance of voting right tomorrow

[Menalque]

if they hit the mason tonight then I have to choose tomorrow and I'd rather not be making that choice with you still in the game because it's gonna be a fucking nightmare trying to decide if you're scum who's made it to the end or town brought along to be the mislynch

[Menalque]

do you not understand why you're the best lynch today @72?

[Menalque]

err yeah I do

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you really really don't wanna 1v1 me 72

[Menalque]

like just to be clear that won't end well for you

[Menalque]

walrus, vote 72

[Menalque]

As much as the other baddies mentioned elmo, I think it's got to be between the two of you now.

interestin

why?

[Menalque]

VOTE: 72

[Menalque]

Okay, I’m VT

Who’s the mason?

[Menalque]

Well, that makes the game easy

VOTE: elmo

[Menalque]

Odd that you wouldn’t insta-vote me there elmo given that if you were town I was conf!scum from the moment I claimed VT

[Menalque]

I think elmo probably did what I did which was think atar was the mason and he was trying to get you NK’d instead by saying you were obviously the mason

[Menalque]

Walrus you’re probably gonna have a lot of paranoia here but I should still be obvtown from my D1 and hopefully icon told you as much in the PT

Hit me up if you need me to explain my thought process throughout the game but I think if you read me + elmo in ISO elmo is obvscum in comparison

[Menalque]

So, reading back kind of randomly, I have a couple questions.

@menalque: you didn't vote for anyone on day 1. Lots of activity, lots of posts, but no vote. Why was that?

@elmo: You voted 72 on day2, when we hanged BP, but did not vote on day 3 -- you were the only non-voter. Why was that?

I don’t remember super clearly but probably bc I was sorting through people and didn’t really wanna start pushing until I felt more confident in who was scum

[Menalque]

Re: 1092

(1) err, why not? As again, I should have been conf!scum to you from the moment I didn’t claim mason if you were town

(2) yes, I’ve been leading wagons and that’s exactly why I’m tone. For scum!me who is universally TR pretty much, what’s the incentive to not just coast along and avoid looking bad? Like I could have coasted all the way to here without needing to push anyone or to end days sooner and probably would have been in a stronger position for it, given that your whole angle on me is an attempt to get walrus to paranoia vote me.

Also what exactly is the benefit to having longer days if the same person is getting lynched? I let each day run to the point where useful info had been extracted and then got us moving on when waiting would just have induced more apathy. Also, again, where is the incentive for scum!me to let day run on long enough to allow a bunch of posts to be produced but not to let things run until deadline? If I wanted to stop town having useful info then I’d have pushed lynched to happen immediately. If I was focused on looking town instead of being town I’d just have let days proceed until the end. You have to believe that I’m choosing the worst of both worlds here as scum

[Menalque]

However, all of this pales in comparison to D1 where I’m still just incredibly obvtown, because again, where was the scum!incentive in me fakeclaiming masons in my first post only to then (1) not use the towncred to divert the lynch off my buddy and (2) to not kill the mason who counterclaimed me on N1 and who is more familiar with my play than anyone else in this PL and who was, in any case where I was scum, most likely to re-evaluate me or to pass on info to his buddy telling them to watch out for me