Mini Normal 2125: Chiptune Mafia [The End]

[Luca Blight]

Just skimmed through, but I’m about to sleep. Will post my thoughts when I wake up.

[Luca Blight]

Not sure what the VC is atm but I think I want to lynch Fuzzy today. There is nothing remotely townie about his contributions so far.

[Luca Blight]

What makes you say that?

[Luca Blight]

I didn’t really notice Taco when I skimmed through, but upon Iso’ing he could be scum as well. A fair number of posts but hardly any content to speak of.

[Luca Blight]

Well dog was scum and you've deviated from your town meta that's been consistent in 3 games I've played with you and 2 that I've read. Could you do an analysis on pops when you get the chance? I asked dog earlier but he never got to it.

How’ve I deviated from my town meta?

I thought dog was pretty obviously Town, even if I am slightly biased.

From my skim through I had Pops as a scum-lean. Will go more in depth soon.

[Luca Blight]

I thought dog was pretty obviously Town, even if I am slightly biased.

Perceiving his iso as better than leantown is definitely implausible to me. I agree with Ame's read here

His anger about the lying and subsequent replace-out was obviously Town imo.

[Luca Blight]

I thought dog was pretty obviously Town, even if I am slightly biased.

Perceiving his iso as better than leantown is definitely implausible to me. I agree with Ame's read here

His anger about the lying and subsequent replace-out was obviously Town imo.

I don't view it that way, but eh I can see you seeing it that way after getting biased by a green PM if you really have one

Come play mafia with us

Why would scum replace out over a player deliberately lying and drawing attention to himself? That would be a perfect opportunity to dig into a tunnel. The fact he replaced out over it proves his anger was genuine, which only makes sense from town there.

[Luca Blight]

What’s with the coloured text, Pops? It’s making it hard to read your posts, especially when it’s a wall of text.

[Luca Blight]

Frustration that town not punishing "objectively bad play" of town was making the game difficult to win as scum in a way that was rewarding town for playing badly.
pedit: I have a post restriction

The only way that could be the case is if Rabid was being suspected over the other lying players, which never happened. As scum he would be in an ideal situation where he could death tunnel those players for lying, there would be no cause for such anger, especially when the players in question were coming under pressure.

[Luca Blight]

Basically only Town get genuinely angry about bad town play - and the swift replace out proves the anger was genuine.

[Luca Blight]

I've gotten angry about bad town play as scum before.

Angry to the point of replacing out without being under any pressure?

[Luca Blight]

Do you townread NDmath by extension?

That’s not as clear cut, as there’s no reference to why he actually replaced out, but I do have a TL on the slot generally.

[Luca Blight]

It reminds me of this game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73448

Blackvoid ragequit due to a lack of activity, and his successor Toto was considered conftown, because scum never ragequit over such a thing. I think the same applies here and I couldn’t see how Rabid’s ragequit comes from scum, but as I said I’m biased.

[Luca Blight]

I've gotten angry about bad town play as scum before.

Angry to the point of replacing out without being under any pressure?

I never replace out except if I have a major real life issue or a moderator won't deal with a site rules infraction

Why were you angry in the games you mentioned?

[Luca Blight]

Anger in those situations is a lot more understandable from scum, can you not see that?

[Luca Blight]

Town players trusting Town players for little reason makes your life a whole lot harder as scum.

Town players deliberately lying/drawing attention to themselves makes your life a whole lot easier as scum, as you can dig in and tunnel them justifiably.

Rabid was clearly pushed over the edge after you also claimed a post restriction - as scum he would have had the opportunity to push both you (already under suspicion) and Paragon ( becoming under suspicion) while himself not being under any pressure. It makes no sense as scum to just give up when the game got a whole lot easier. A more likely scenario is he was Town who felt no-one was taking the game seriously.

[Luca Blight]

I'm taking this game very seriously tbh

Do you find Taco scummier than Fuzzy?

They’re both in a similar boat of not having much content worth noting. I’m a little more cautious about Fuzzy as he seems to be often lynched D1 regardless of alignment. I haven’t got round to looking at Taco’s meta yet.

[Luca Blight]

once every checks in we should prob start trying to move out the rvs stage and start to figure the game out .

not to worry about figuring out anyone or have them someone sort me out atm as it very early in
the game. As the day go on we will need to game solve.

I found this scummy. It’s like he felt the need to so something, but at the same time is discouraging the very things that Town should be doing to progress the game.

[Luca Blight]

Fuzzy’s Town games seem more open and relaxed. Here he seems on edge and stilted. I think this is a good lynch for today.

[Luca Blight]

What do you think of Tom?

[Luca Blight]

VC 1.3

popsofctown (4):

Ame, Taly, Robbnva, eyestott

TheFuzzylogic99 (3):

Yshtola Rhul, Taco, popsofctown

Paragon (3):

Aloratom, Rabid Schnauzer, Wiisp

Taco (1):

Paragon

Not Voting:

TheFuzzylogic99

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-03-30 07:05:00)

Mod notice

• Rabid Schnauzer asked for a replacement.
  
  
• Robbnva asked for a replacement.
  
  [/color]

Although looking at these wagons, Fuzzy’s is the dirtiest looking, while Pops’ looks relatively pure.

I’ll get onto Iso’ing Pops now.

[Luca Blight]

Actually in a bit as I have to go out.

Tom is alora.

[Luca Blight]

Burden of good player was a vague reference, of like, holding people to different standards for how much pro-town content they should produce. I think if I posted my iso with a different username with a February 2020 cakeday I wouldn't be wagoned. But maybe I would, I don't know.

This feels more like scum frustration than Town frustration.

[Luca Blight]

I’m far from committed to lynching Fuzzy and am still very much in the sorting process, but I do feel he is a good lynch candidate. He may be an ‘easy’ push, but that doesn’t make him Town. Why do you TR him?

[Luca Blight]

Luca mislynched me when I was obvtown in Autumnal. Total baddie

I townread you that game, but you made your own bed with the lolhammer. I thought your lynch was beneficial for Town even if you flipped green, and I was right as we ended up winning.

[Luca Blight]

I was right as we ended up winning.

Do I get to say the same thing about lolhammering

I suppose you can, I couldn’t refute it.

[Luca Blight]

I thought dog was pretty obviously Town, even if I am slightly biased.

Perceiving his iso as better than leantown is definitely implausible to me. I agree with Ame's read here

His anger about the lying and subsequent replace-out was obviously Town imo.

I don't view it that way, but eh I can see you seeing it that way after getting biased by a green PM if you really have one

Come play mafia with us

Why would scum replace out over a player deliberately lying and drawing attention to himself? That would be a perfect opportunity to dig into a tunnel. The fact he replaced out over it proves his anger was genuine, which only makes sense from town there.

This is incorrect. Emotions are commonly the same regardless of the nature of one's soul, as they are the manifestation of the person's opinions and ideals. If he feels strongly enough about such a thing being worth having that large a reaction to, it would have little to nothing to do with the color of his soul.

The emotions are dependent on the alignment: rabid said himself numerous times that lying townies make it easier for scum to hide. This shows it was a townie ideal and that he recognized the benefit from a scum perspective.

[Luca Blight]

I thought dog was pretty obviously Town, even if I am slightly biased.

Perceiving his iso as better than leantown is definitely implausible to me. I agree with Ame's read here

His anger about the lying and subsequent replace-out was obviously Town imo.

I don't view it that way, but eh I can see you seeing it that way after getting biased by a green PM if you really have one

Come play mafia with us

Why would scum replace out over a player deliberately lying and drawing attention to himself? That would be a perfect opportunity to dig into a tunnel. The fact he replaced out over it proves his anger was genuine, which only makes sense from town there.

This is incorrect. Emotions are commonly the same regardless of the nature of one's soul, as they are the manifestation of the person's opinions and ideals. If he feels strongly enough about such a thing being worth having that large a reaction to, it would have little to nothing to do with the color of his soul.

The emotions are dependent on the alignment: rabid said himself numerous times that lying townies make it easier for scum to hide. This shows it was a townie ideal and that he recognized the benefit from a scum perspective.

Do you see the folly of this stance? Those who lead the charge against falsehoods with no higher meaning are those who benefit the most from the false accusation.

Those who would hide from the truth are those who need the introduction of such falsehoods the most. Is this not self-evident?

If I understand you correctly, then that’s kind of my point - rabid could have used the lies if he were scum. Instead he replaced out despite being under no pressure.

[Luca Blight]

@Yshtola: #674 was too esoteric for a mere mortal like me to understand. Can you rephrase that in a more common tongue?

The proposed quandary is that Sin Eaters are more primed to take advantage of Warriors of Light lying than when there are none.

In which case, when there are those who take advantage of such lies to push them into the spotlight, what alignment is the more likely to make such a claim? This is further exacerbated by the idea that the person Luca Blight is suggesting as a Warrior of Light is not the first to suggest such a thing, nor is he among those that did so while it was at it's most pressing.

Therefore, is it not a more interesting supposition that he left the room for reasoning of disgust at the idea of a Warrior of Light creating such a lie and that other Warriors of Light not allowing him to pay for those crimes? Nowhere on this supposition does a Sin Eater balk, for a Sin Eater does not immediately lose their moral compass solely because they are a Sin Eater, especially those that would pass as a Warrior of Light to mine eyes.

That’s clearly not why rabid ‘left the room’, though. Paragon was being given a hard time generally over the lie and Pops was being wagoned. What pushed rabid over the edge was when Eyestott also made a similar post about having a post restriction. If rabid were scum, knowing everyone's alignment and having easy reasons to push multiple players while not being under any pressure himself, then there is a lot less reason to feel frustrated than Town!Rabid who doesn’t know anyone else’s alignment and just sees an increasing number of players goofing around with the post restriction, making it more difficult to tell scum from town.

[Luca Blight]

I could see Ame being scum this game. She got locked into that Pops tunnel really quickly, and her stance towards Paragon with regards to his post restriction claim feels a bit like fake solving. I also feel like she might be trying to white-knight Fuzzy, and she jumped to the conclusion that I’m not playing to my town meta way too fast, and isn’t attempting to sort me further as I would have expected from her.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Ame

[Luca Blight]

She’s trying to buddy Rhul as well. She’s too trusting of her, which doesn’t resonate with me.

[Luca Blight]

How’ve I deviated from my town meta?

You have the most accurate scum reads of anyone I've played with so far on this site. Fuzzy is such a bad and opportunistic push. Although you did do the same thing with Aaron. I guess I have you in the BoP category in my mind so it pings me when you're pushing in the wrong direction.

This seems like a slip to me. There is nothing to suggest Fuzzy is Town, so why does Ame so firmly believe I’m pushing in the wrong direction? Ame had Fuzzy in her second bottom pile earlier and has since not updated her read. This stance makes no sense from town.

[Luca Blight]

Paragon towning it up in here.

[Luca Blight]

I’m feeling a little better about Ame after her recent posting.

UNVOTE:

Pops, Math, Tom. These are the players I’m most interested in right now. I’ll do some more Iso’ing.

[Luca Blight]

The only thing that seemed good from Tom so far was his Paragon case, but as Ame highlighted it was actually saying such and such is scummy without explaining why any of it is scummy.

I’ll try this for size.

VOTE: Aloratom

[Luca Blight]

Tom/Pops would make sense as partners.

[Luca Blight]

I’ve played with Town!tom before and he had consistently good insights and contributions, which have been sorely lacking his game. He has been sitting back and avoiding taking a stance on most things that have occurred unless prodded to do so. The exception is the Paragon/Conspire thing which, again, looks like surface level shade without any deeper thought behind it as to why those things are scum-indicative.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Aloratom, who is your strongest townread and why? Thank you very much.

1

Not much more than a Town lean on anyone right now. Wiisp v Robb seems TvT, but that's not original. Neither seems afraid of confrontation. Pops' "reverse survivalism" puts a label on it.

If you're talking about mine, a more precise question would have helped actually. "I need a second pair of eyes there," doesn't tell me much.

heh, I guess so. Yeah, I just want another opinion on when I began scumreading

Pops

so I can have new context when I re-ISO and I won't feel like I'm tunneling, or unjustly doing so.

Looking at that 1v1 in a vacuum, it looks TvT to me. I understand Pops' principle point about the burden of a good player -- the better you are the more there is expected of you. And looking at it from your point of view, it looked like you were getting lost in the Mafia game jargon. I think there was some miscommunication, but I didn't see any misrepresentations by either of you, just debate.

That’s twice Tom’s put arguments down as TvT. I’ve always found this to be a lazy way of sorting that is often characteristic of scum, as it enables them to skip over most of what’s been said without needing to take much of a stance on it. Tom’s view on Pop has been a bit weird all game tbh, hence my comment that I feel they could be partners.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah I don't know that I'm seeing as much scum in pops as some are. More like obstinate town. She's rubbing people the wrong way, and her copping the post restriction to make a point was odd, but she's right about Fuzzy and about Y'shtola. Fuzzy started strong and has since been MIA, and Y'shtola's role seems to be to stand by and wait for things to happen. Pops may be off-putting, but I'm not scum reading her right now.

I don’t see this view or Pops as ‘obstinate town’. And why isn’t Paragon obstinate town by the same token?

Tom is agreeing with Pops’s view on Fuzzy/Rhul, so why is Tom not pushing these players?

[Luca Blight]

Luca Blight, anything you’d like to discuss?

What do you think about him wanting to lynch Fuzzy?

I’m unsure of the purpose behind this question - it feels as though by asking this question he is distancing himself from a Fuzzy wagon/lynch, but as we saw above he clearly agrees with Pops’ view on Fuzzy.

[Luca Blight]

Aloratom plays very differently as mafia. He likes to buddy people and feels inclined to fabricate reads. Here, he is honest about what's he's thinking and is not presenting and of the aforementioned behaviour. His push on me was in good faith.

Conspire has not posted much, but I really like their style. This might be more of a personality read than an alignment one.

7

You're still doing it. You need to stop both gimmicks. Your self-imposed post cap is just part of a bigger picture.

Sorry, I saw the chance and I had to take it. Why do you think me doing that is scum-indicative? I'm just having some fun.

Giving reads for a player who isn't in the game is not only confusing, it's deceiving those repping in, and it skews how people view your reads as well as their own. If one of us is going on a snipe hunt and insists that others follow them, I can conclude only that they aren't interested in scum hunting but in discouraging others from doing so.

I feel as though Tom is exaggerating the issue here, and is being disingenuous in basing Paragon’s whole play on the gimmick and writing it off as being uninterested in scumhunting, when Paragon has clearly done more scumhunting than most this game.

[Luca Blight]

I can see what you’re seeing, Paragon. I don’t trust Taly yet, but there are bigger fish to fry atm.

[Luca Blight]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=81952

[Luca Blight]

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

[Luca Blight]

Luca has a strong town tone, but it's pinging me that he's pushed 4 town slots now.

It’s called sorting?

And can you clarify what slots you’re referring to.

[Luca Blight]

I don’t see how you can say with such confidence that the other three are Town.

[Luca Blight]

Could you expand more on your Math read in particular?

[Luca Blight]

My play is so drastically different from my scum game, I think you would pick up on it.

2 scum really changes things.

Pops/Para : Luca/Para : Luca/Taly

One of these is the scum team.

So you think me and Para are a likely team, when Rabid ragequit following Paragon’s post-restriction claim?

Seriously?

[Luca Blight]

You don’t have to keep quoting it, I’ll catch-up when I’m ready. Until then I’m dealing with present discussion only.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

I need a reset.
I'm starting my reads from scratch again.
@

everyone

: Let's say that you lose all your memories of what has thus far transpired in this game and all your reads. However, you get to keep one of your reads that you currently have (be it a town read or a scum read), and the reasoning behind it.
Which one would you choose to keep your memory of?

Aloratom

-town, that's the read that helps me keep a grasp on the game at hand.

In a gamestate where 3 confident wagons crumbled for 0 reason,

Alo

asserting his push on

Paragon

and sticking by to what wagons he finds as town is +++ against lack of cohesion and promotes town direction. It doesn't align with a scum-motivated narrative or agenda.

I don’t really like this reasoning.

1) it’s early D1. Wagons rapidly increasing and decreasing is normal.

2) scum know everyone’s alignment, Town don’t. Scum have reason to sit on reads moreso than Town, especially in the feeling out period of the game.

3) you’re ignoring the context that Tom clearly isn’t into the game, and clearly lacks a solid basis for his reads.

4) I disagree that Tom’s play this game promotes Town direction and doesn’t potentially align with a scum agenda.

[Luca Blight]

Burden of good player was a vague reference, of like, holding people to different standards for how much pro-town content they should produce. I think if I posted my iso with a different username with a February 2020 cakeday I wouldn't be wagoned. But maybe I would, I don't know.

This feels more like scum frustration than Town frustration.

This was this the extent of your ISO? Also could you expand on your read of Math?

No it wasn’t, it was all I felt like commenting on at that time. I hadn’t liked any of Pops’ Iso up until that point, but not much else stuck out.

I’m still in the process of sorting Math. Rob’s posts were a bit meh and I haven’t liked much about Math’s posts up until now, but I have to look again.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

I don't think anything that Robb did was particularly AI. He moved his vote a few places, settling on Pops. Ame's not wrong when she says that once Robb gets locked, he'll death tunnel. He'll even admit that. I have a feeling he was headed in that direction, and I give him credit for dropping the game when he did.

Anyway, NDMath's entry post 519 was somewhat odd in the sense that it looks like he put work into it, but it could have been written better and more thought could have been gone into it. Not giving links to posts makes it difficult to follow trains of thought. He didn't understand my push on Paragon obviously; I'm not sure what he means by me being scared of mechanics. He gives several other surface reads with no basis, and then gives a couple of possible scum trios: paragon/pops/? or fuzzy/rabid/?, but no reasoning behind them.

NDMath was taken in by the Paragon's Conspire con in 565, so I can understand some overall confusion there. And he makes a big push on Paragon in 767 that I'm not sure I completely get.

Perhaps the most striking thing I see is in NDMath's 519 entry post he was Town reading Paragon, and then in 565 he voted Paragon with no explanation other than "Gonna put my vote on paragon for now since I'm uncomfortable putting pops at L-1 at this moment." Those posts are timestamped about 10 hours apart. That's seems odd.

I guess I can see a scum lean here, but I don't know that I'm ready to lynch the slot for being scummy yet. Actually, I'm a bit surprised you want to go after NDMath after your bit about it being easy for scum to get away with tunneling in this situation after their replacing out.

Do you want to lynch this slot because you find it scummy or for analysis?

I already said earlier in reply to Pops that I don’t necessarily think is Rob is Town for the replace-out - he didn’t appear particularly angry and there is no given reason as to why he actually replaced out. Rabid on the other hand was clearly exasperated and at the end of his tether. I didn’t get the same impression from Rob.

I don’t necessarily want to lynch Math today, I’m just narrowing my pool which still includes Math, who is relatively unsorted fmpov.

[Luca Blight]

I’d still like an answer to this:

My play is so drastically different from my scum game, I think you would pick up on it.

2 scum really changes things.

Pops/Para : Luca/Para : Luca/Taly

One of these is the scum team.

So you think me and Para are a likely team, when Rabid ragequit following Paragon’s post-restriction claim?

Seriously?

[Luca Blight]

I think Ame is Town, although I disagree with most of her views.

I’m coming round to the idea of Tom as Town; I liked his response to pressure and his take on Math.

I think Pops is scum. I will go into more detail soon.

VOTE: Pops

[Luca Blight]

Yes.

I think you/taly is more likely though.

What is me/Taly based on?

I honestly don’t see how you consider me/Paragon when rabid ragequit based on Paragon’s fakeclaim? Explain it to me?

[Luca Blight]

So you think the anger was faked despite the replace-out?

Look at the context. Rabid was clearly ready to death-tunnel Paragon. He didn’t immediately replace out, but only did so after both Pops and Stott claimed post restrictions. This is consistent with the idea that he was genuinely getting fed up of childish behavior, while your idea that he was scum looking for any excuse to replace out is completely unfounded.

[Luca Blight]

I think you’ll always find me suspicious unless I become confirmed as Town.

[Luca Blight]

It's not unfounded because I've seen it before? His replace out is NAI leaning town. It just doesn't have as much weight as your trying to give it.

You haven’t seen it before, it’s a unique situation.

Unless you can show me a very similar replace out that turned out to be S/S?

[Luca Blight]

I can take you not Town reading me based on it, but suggesting me and Paragon are partners after their earlier interactions and Rabid’s subsequent ragequit? It’s ludicrous.

[Luca Blight]

My scumread on Pops is ever increasing. There is no direction to her play. No intensity, which stands out given the fact she is the main wagon.

As Town I’d expect her to be rallying Town in a certain direction, but she is just sitting back, posting mainly fluffy, NAI stuff, hedging her bets and waiting for someone else to lead the charge for her, which is what I’d expect from her as scum.

[Luca Blight]

She’s really eased off on Fuzzy, why?

As Town I’d expect her to be pushing this scum read to the max when she might be lynched in its place, but it’s as though she doesn’t want to seem opportunistic so, again, she’s generally shading a few different players and waiting for something to happen in her favour.

[Luca Blight]

And in the game I played with her where she was mislynched, I actually had the feeling it was going to be a mislynch by how she was acting. Her interests were entirely focused towards game solving up until the last, and I’m not seeing any of that on display here.

[Luca Blight]

Explain that upward trend.

[Luca Blight]

I just get the feeling you’re gun-shy scum - overthinking things and becoming stuck, unable to really push anyone with any conviction.

I don’t see this mentality being Town when you’re the main wagon. There may not be any open-wolfing going on, but I’d expect Town in your position to at least show more intent to sort/solve and push the lynch in another direction. Your passivity despite your activity seems to betray a guilty mindset.

[Luca Blight]

Can you rephrase that? I don’t follow.

[Luca Blight]

Btw replying to walls is difficult for me this game as I’ll only be able to phone post. Unless something is pressing, I’m not going to edit through a huge quote to reply to something.

[Luca Blight]

@Taly: Yes I did read it. I still think the reasoning was poor, but it wasn’t a particularly pressing issue and I felt ok leaving it there for now.

Just in response to your questions from those points:

Tom has clearly stated he hadn’t been following the game properly, to the extent that he thought Ame has replaced Robb. He scumread Paragon but admitted he hadn’t really read too deeply into his posts barring the things he pointed out regarding the role crumbs. This shows his reads were surface level and lacking in foundation.

Sitting on reads, particularly on what is essentially the basis of a policy lynch, is an easy thing for scum to do; if they aren’t under threat then there is no need to pull up any trees from their point of view. Assuming no scum agenda on his behalf based on this approach seemed rash to me. I currently think Tom is more likely Town based on his more recent posting anyway.

[Luca Blight]

You were townreading Tom earlier, weren’t you?

Can you explain your progression there?

[Luca Blight]

Pops, can you sum up your reasons for Taly!scum?

[Luca Blight]

Para do you not agree that the post I quoted of Luca aligns with his scum meta?

What about my play as a whole?

[Luca Blight]

A strong town read, yet he was included in two of your possible three scum teams?

I wasn’t obsessed, but I was incredulous that you could see me and Paragon being one of the likeliest teams given the circumstances.

[Luca Blight]

It’s true I was trying to pocket Arthur there. Unfortunately he replaced out soon after which spoiled my plans.

[Luca Blight]

I wasn’t obsessed, but I was incredulous that you could see me and Paragon being one of the likeliest teams given the circumstances.

I don't think town!Luca would actually be all that interested in this because he would clearly have a biased perspective that I don't have so it would be useless trying to convince me. I think you're just using this as an anchoring point to engage in the thread. Yeah, the more that I think about it, you're scum.

This is completely wrong. I think it’s objectively ridiculous to consider me/Paragon as a team and Town!Me would always call that out.

I can give meta of me doing just that in a previous Town game if you’re interested.

[Luca Blight]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200

If you read the first half of the second page of my iso here you’ll see my explaining at length to Wicked why me and Datisi aren’t a scumteam, while becoming increasingly frustrated in the process.

[Luca Blight]

Starting from post 2393

[Luca Blight]

Finishing at 2417

[Luca Blight]

Not to mention you and Hectic SR me last game for changing my meta (being more friendly) and yet I was Town that game too.

[Luca Blight]

I wasn’t obsessed, but I was incredulous that you could see me and Paragon being one of the likeliest teams given the circumstances.

I don't think town!Luca would actually be all that interested in this because he would clearly have a biased perspective that I don't have so it would be useless trying to convince me. I think you're just using this as an anchoring point to engage in the thread. Yeah, the more that I think about it, you're scum.

And why did you cut my question to you out of the quote?

How could Paragon have been a strong Town read for you when he was in two of your three possible scum teams?

[Luca Blight]

No, they weren’t actively pushing that team, they just stated it as the most likely. They were pushing a lynch of either Icon or Datisi.

You say throwaway speculation, but that’s not how it came across. You seemed pretty confident scum was definitely one of the three teams you listed.

The reasoning doesn’t only pertain to my perspective - it should be pretty obvious for anyone who reads the Rabid/Paragon interactions that it’s not S/S. I have the benefit or my role pm, but even if I hadn’t replaced into this slot I’d be reading it the same.

Yes, I did take it in. I assume you mean copy and paste and then include quote tags?

[Luca Blight]

I’ve never known someone SR me every game based on the most ridiculously insignificant things. Last game you thought I was scum for saying ‘your turn, Ame’ after answering your RQS questions. It amazes me how you still have such confidence in these little pedantic things you pick up on despite having been wrong every time. I find it frustrating as you seem otherwise a competent player, but you get so easily sidetracked over minor details.

[Luca Blight]

post.

Oh wow, didn’t realise you could do that. Thanks, I’ll try and use it from now on.

[Luca Blight]

Am I more scummy for saying Paragon was towning it up or for arguing against the me/Paragon team?

[Luca Blight]

For some reason that quoting method only works for me when I highlight a single word. If I try and highlight a sentence or group of words it quotes the entire post.

[Luca Blight]

-I haven't read your recent interaction with pops but your initial analysis was really weak and I don't get why you were scum leaning her for the post you quoted. .

That’s a weird reason, especially given it’s your strongest. I wasn’t pushing or voting Pops at that time. As I mentioned before, I had read her Iso but hadn’t commented in depth on what I thought. I wasn’t impressed generally but nothing else immediately stuck out. You should probably read the recent interactions for the further reasoning.

[Luca Blight]

-Being so concerned with the Luca/Para team. Again this felt like forced engagement. I feel like you're doing it here too. Focusing on my scum read rather than finding scum.

You’re being really unfair here. Since when is responding to being scumread automatically a forced engagement? And I’ve literally done this in every game you’ve scumread me in. Why are you taking meta that suits your argument into account and ignoring the meta that doesn’t? And your last sentence implies I haven’t been scumhunting, which isn’t true at all. Just because at this precise moment I’m focusing on this issue, doesn’t mean I haven’t been doing other things prior to this.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Y'shtola Rhul
I guess this is less vanityish than Taly.
I've seen self-post-restricted players play better than this.
It's spooky that it was similar to a towngame but her role was special and all that.
Luca, for fun, does the logic you used in autumnal mean lynching green!pops is would be more useful than lynching red!Rhul?
I'm interested by the idea of lynching town being "correct", I think Ankamius also believes that and she's like gurd, but it is a newsletter I have not quite subscribed for ever.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean in the context of this game. I don’t think your play is similar to that game (you were obvtown for a while, but I couldn’t shake the paranoia of you). This game I haven’t seen much that suggests I should be townreading you.

Obviously if Rhul is scum then lynching her would be more beneficial than lynching Town!Pops. I don’t have a confident read on her either way, however. I’d like to think contentless slots are automatically scum, but so often I’ve seen them flip Town.

[Luca Blight]

That’s reads list seems fake to me.

Tom being that high in the list without remembering why you TR him doesn’t make sense.

Your Fuzzy reasoning is bad. Your read on him shouldn’t be entirely based on who has pushed him, especially when his wagon has amounted to nothing.

I can kind of get your Wiisp point, but the ease at which you arrived at it seems like TMI.

Your Paragon SR is vague. What was scummy about his Taly push? It feels as though you’re buddying Taly tbh.

I’m not buying your paranoia of me. I don’t feel it’s justified/natural based on the posts I’ve made about you.

VOTE: Math

[Luca Blight]

Math’s reads haven’t really developed since his first post, with the exception of his Tom read which is following the common trend. In general he is budding Taly and mirroring his stances in virtually every aspect.

His comments regarding Paragon seem really scummy to me.

[Luca Blight]

I really have a hard time trying to vibe with your pushes because they consist of finding error in most people's reads. You spend so much time finding error in someone's whole world of reads but you're not evaluating what specifically is scum-indicative about them.

Honestly, I'm pretty aware that Math could be buddying me since his entry post and I'm just so incredibly unbothered by it. Give me some credit.

What's odd to me is that you immediately go on the offensive before someone defines their strongest reads. It reads like you're finding things to discredit preemptively without voicing why.

Kind of the same way you inquire about what's scummy about Paragon's push onto me. Is Paragon's push onto me scummy or towny? What was my push on him to you? I haven't seen you verify your thoughts here, but I wonder if you're assuming Math should come to this conclusion, or if you're actually trying to figure this out yourself.

That’s a nice generalization based on one post that I’ve just made and am still in the process of following up on.

I don’t care if you notice Math’s buddying or not; it pertains to my read on him, not you. Although it’s weird how little stock you give it. The timing and intensity of your defence is interesting, however, given you haven’t yet caught up on many of the previous pages.

If Math is able to define his strongest reads in a more satisfactory way I may change my vote, but such definitions haven’t been forthcoming.

I’ve already said Paragon’s Taly push was townie.

[Luca Blight]

I don’t remember Math’s earlier reads bringing him much ire?

You’re also not talking into account that Math is a newer player and this would be his first scum game on site, so I wouldn’t expect optimal scum play from him.

I also get the impression Math is playing the ‘scum wouldn’t say that’ card. For example his Tom reasoning that he couldn’t recall when it came to typing his post. I believe he is deliberately seeming to be a bit ‘all over the place’ due to the general idea that scum play more carefully. If you look at his reason for Tr’ing Wiisp, it’s based on the same kind of idea which shows he aware of this, but the way Math presented his reads doesn’t ring true to me.

[Luca Blight]

Nothing she had said struck me as townie. I’ve covered this already (not sure if you’re caught up yet) but there’s been a lack of direction and intensity to her posts the entire game. I was able to read her as Town pretty easily the last time I played with her and I liked most of her posts, which hasn’t been the case at all this time around.

[Luca Blight]

@Wiisp: Math is a relatively new player, but not a complete newbie. He has a few completed games on this site and apparently a fair few off-site. This would be his first scum game on this site, however. I haven’t seen Math make a post like that in his other games, from what I’ve read.

[Luca Blight]

I also find Math’s lack of development on Paragon scum indicative. The fact Paragon is at the bottom of his pile justifies his sitting on a vanity wagon without seeming too opportunistic of the more lynchable slot. At the same time he is scumleaning those lynchable slots, meaning he can ‘compromise’ on them at any time without being held accountable for their green flip (because he wanted a Paragon lynch).

And the reasons for SR’ing Paragon are really bad. There is clearly at least a possible (imo probable) Town motive behind Paragon’s questioning/suspicion of Taly, and his other reason is entirely vague, which we’ll see if he can elaborate on.

[Luca Blight]

When you’re voting someone who clearly isn’t being lynched, especially when you maintain that vote without really pushing it.

[Luca Blight]

Are you fully caught up now, Ame?

[Luca Blight]

I don’t feel in the mood for Mafia atm, just waiting for Math’s explanations before I decide what to do there.

[Luca Blight]

I don’t feel in the mood for Mafia atm, just waiting for Math’s explanations before I decide what to do there.

May I just have your thoughts on 1382?

I don’t see how it’s really scum-indicative. I agree with Wiisp that there are better reasons to lynch Pops than that. There’s nothing in it at all imo.

As the recipient of your pedantic cases in the past I can sympathize with Pops here.

[Luca Blight]

Neither has Ame from what I’ve seen.

[Luca Blight]

I wasn’t being mean to you, Ame, I was just giving my opinion on your case like you asked me to, and saying I’ve never seen you hit scum with one of these pedantic cases, which is true. I’m not sure why this seems weird to you as I’ve literally said this to you before in previous games. You are clearly a strong player but you get sidetracked so easily by NAI details.

[Luca Blight]

I don't know what

N

is.

Luca, I think your style of presentation there is somewhat remarkable, given that you were previously aligned more closely to Ame than me. I don't think I'd impart the significance to it Ame seems to, but that's as a matter of magnitude.

I highly TR Ame, which makes it all the more frustrating when I see her go off on these tangents and put so much stock into it.

Her earlier case on you was good and I agreed with it, but I read nothing into the points regarding your conspire interaction.

[Luca Blight]

That being said, your 1432 is mainly what I'm referring to with regard to feeling you putting on a show.

It reminded me of these: ~ ~(bottom)

As soon as I saw Clidd I stopped reading. Clidd is mean as both alignments, as is Wimpy/Robb (remember when you wrongly scumread Wimpy for being mean to you?)

And I wasn’t even being mean, it was just a truthful comment.

[Luca Blight]

Ame, just take a break and stay in the game. No need to replace out over this.

[Luca Blight]

I apologize for what I said anyway, I didn’t mean to cause offense.

I’ll take a break as well.

[Luca Blight]

It was a weird comment, but I’m not seeing it being as big an issue are you’re making out. I assume she meant bring him to LYLO and only then reconsider which, yes, could be a valid scum plan but could easily have a townie motive behind it. I think her play for most of the game verges on being obvtown, which far outweighs a slightly weird comment imo.

[Luca Blight]

Why are you so worried about what people think of you, Taly?

Fmpov I don’t confidently trust you yet, but I’m not considering voting you today. Not everything needs to be resolved D1.

I need to catch-up a bit, will read your walls soon.

[Luca Blight]

Can you explain your reads a bit more?

Particularly your scumreads and your progression on Tom.

[Luca Blight]

I really want to hear more about your Paragon SR.

[Luca Blight]

What did you mean when you said he’s doing what you normally do as scum?

[Luca Blight]

Luca Blight, how do you approach the game as either alignment?

As Town I try and stay grounded. As scum it depends on the game before me.

[Luca Blight]

V/la weekend

[Luca Blight]

With regards to my ‘vote park’, I was waiting ages for Math to explain himself, and what I’ve seen hasn’t made me feel any better about him. I need to catch up on a lot but I’m feeling really demotivated to play Mafia right now.

[Luca Blight]

Will give this my attention tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

Just skimming through what I’ve missed.

Can’t say I agree with Taly’s ‘confidently town’ conclusion on Fuzzy. None of Fuzzy’s play would really surprise me coming from either alignment. What makes you say his Taly read was the most honest this game? I don’t see that at all.

[Luca Blight]

Luca

is probable scum if

NDMath's

wagon contains another scum....

I don’t get this at all.

[Luca Blight]

Luca Blight, how do you approach the game as either alignment?

As Town I try and stay grounded. As scum it depends on the game before me.

Humor me. What type of approach would you have as scum this game? If it depends on who your partners are, a few examples would also be nice. Thank you.

I don’t really feel like answering this right now. I’ll come back to this later if you really want me to answer it.

[Luca Blight]

I’m barely caught up but this is roughly where I’m at:

Town: Paragon, Fire, Churros

Town-leans: Pops, SS

Null-ish: Taly, Bella, Stott

Scum-leans: Fuzzy, Math, Tom


Just for reference mainly as I still need to read deeper, but I’m pretty certain I only want to lynch in that bottom pile today.

[Luca Blight]

I’ve been back and forth in my reading of Pops all game, but I’m finally feeling a little easier about her. I think she’s displayed a townie mindset with regards to her recent sorting, I’ll get to some examples later maybe.

I feel I’m being a little harsh with my placing of Taly as usually effort and sorting like that in this kind of game state comes from town, but I don’t really agree with most of his conclusion or the reasoning used. It could just be a clash of play styles but I’m finding it hard to fully trust him. I’ll go back and look at that Churros case again.

I’ve seen one or two of things that ping Stott as town, such as his PoV with regards to the earlier replacements that was neither popular nor convenient from a scum perspective, but was a fair reading of the situation. I haven’t seen anything that makes me want to lockTown him, though.

I think Wiisp’s reaction to Ame’s case was more likely Town.

I’m gonna focus mainly on my scum suspects from here on in as I’m lacking time.

[Luca Blight]

What did you mean when you said he’s doing what you normally do as scum?

I saw this and it's gonna get answered but only once when I think of more than one descriptable similarities.

I don’t like this stalling, especially considering he still hasn’t answered it.

Math’s reasoning for Paragon being his main SR was that Paragon is doing a lot of things that Math does as scum. When I ask him to expland on this he takes forever to answer, and finally gives an answer in 1507 in which he says paragon has been agreeing with a lot of stuff recently. This strikes me as scummy reasoning for a couple of reasons:

1) it ignores Paragon’s play as a whole, which is far from what Math is portraying it as here

2) it neglects to mention anything pertaining to Math’s original reasoning, which is was I asked him to explain.

I had to ask again to clarify what he meant in his original reasoning and he made the stalling post above. It’s as though he’s been caught making shit up and so tried to find something else he could throw at Paragon in its place.

[Luca Blight]

I am confident nomnomnom will not delete yours, Churros', or Taly's posts when Day 1 ends. Postflip analysis is far more effective and time efficient than preflip analysis. There is no contradiction between "I refuse to do this now" and "I will do this later". Doing it now only stirs up the sorts of confirmation biases that make getting the first redflip of the game more difficult, and that's more important than a "head start".

Ack I'm still not as convinced of this as I feel I should be right now.
UNVOTE: popsofctown

Not convinced, so why unvote and wagon Churros instead?

His Churros vote seems really random after his previous views on that slot. The way he states he is willing to compromise on Fuzzy also seems scummy - it’s as though he knows his current vote is vanity and unlikely to go anywhere (especially as Math has literally no reasoning behind his vote) but knows it will be less opportunistic looking than going straight for someone like Fuzzy.

Weird as well how Math is seemingly sheeping Taly’s view on Churros, but not his view on Fuzzy. Any reason for this?

And I don’t get why he’s suddenly given up on pursuing Pops.

[Luca Blight]

Ame was obvtown.

I’ve been unimpressed by your posts generally. I much prefer a Math lynch over you right now, though.

[Luca Blight]

Why did you question my Fire read when you also had Ame as high town?

Any response to Taly’s 1600?

[Luca Blight]

Nice misrep, I never said that, nor would I when I also SL Fuzzy.

I find your stance unnatural posturing. How about you explain it rather than trying to misrep what I said?

[Luca Blight]

1) you still haven’t answered what Paragon has been doing that you also do as scum

2) explain your Churros vote

3) why are you no longer pursuing a Pops lynch and why do you now prefer Fuzzy instead?

4) why do you sheep Taly on SR’ing Churros but not on TR’ing Fuzzy?

[Luca Blight]

And the only reason Churros is a vanity wagon is because you’re not pushing it at all - you literally gave no reasoning and in the same post stated your willingness to lynch Fuzzy instead.

It’s all for show.

[Luca Blight]

I’m not going to be able to unvote you if you can’t explain that Paragon read at all. It was what I found most scummy about your reads list and you’ve done nothing but stall and deflect when asked to elaborate.

I just don’t see how you can have that thought process without actually being able to give any kind of explanation. You used a generic reason to justify your SR and when asked to explain it can’t back it up whatsoever.

[Luca Blight]

Also if Churros is scum Luca is town and if Churros is town Luca is also town.

Can you explain this as well?

[Luca Blight]

Time’s running out, get your votes down.

I suggest Fuzzy isn’t the right way to go; he’s the biggest wagon, others who aren’t currently voting him are also willing to and there is little resistance to this wagon.

I endorse a Math lynch.

[Luca Blight]

Trust me on my Churros TR for today.

I’m interested in your updated thoughts on Math.

[Luca Blight]

I think Math’s reasons for scumreading Paragon, which he was then entirely unable to explain, and then tried to stall and deflect away from, is scum-indicative?

I haven’t read the recent stuff as I’ve just woken up but by vote stays.

[Luca Blight]

Gamestate-wise it doesn’t make sense that scum wouldn’t jump on Math after my case against him if Fuzzy is scum and Math Town.

It’s possible they might be partners, but I much prefer a Math lynch.

[Luca Blight]

And if Fuzzy is scum and Math town then why isn’t he voting Math?

[Luca Blight]

Not just Fuzzy but whoever his partners are, if he’s scum.

I’ve given many valid points on why Math is scum, but no-one is really interested and seemingly everyone is ok with lynching Fuzzy.

I don’t see how it makes sense in a world where Math is Town and Fuzzy scum.

[Luca Blight]

I’ve only played with Math once before. My read isn’t based on meta, but he’s been nothing like either of his previous Town games in this one.

His Iso’s from those games aren’t very long, so feel free to check them out yourself.

[Luca Blight]

intent

Please claim in your next post.

[Luca Blight]

I’ll be around at deadline anyway

[Luca Blight]

You don’t seem to get mislynched as much as you make out, looking at your meta.

[Luca Blight]

@Churros: I replaced out of that game because I was in the process of moving house and missed an entire day phase, and didn’t have time to catch-up.

I feel like my scum game was better 2/3 years ago than it is now: I used to enjoy playing as scum, but the novelty has worn off and I find it harder to stay interested these days. I have a couple of recently completed scum games in the newbie queue and I think my play is a lot different in those games to how I’m playing here.

@Fuzzy: I believe Churros is Town regardless of your flip. Pops could be scum, but again your flip wouldn’t in itself cause me to alter my current Tr there.

That’s one of the reasons I don’t care for this lynch too much, because if it flips green it doesn’t change anything. Math is a more interesting lynch as far as I’m concerned.

[Luca Blight]

As scum I’m either really aggressive or tentatively try and stay in everyone’s good books, I find it hard to strike a balance.

[Luca Blight]

It’s unlikely

I intend to follow through if no-one else votes him, but I’m in no rush to end the day.

[Luca Blight]

I get that Fuzzy is theoretically the correct lynch at this point, I just hate not lynching scum D1 and believe Math is more likely to flip red.

Fuzzy is really no loss though, given he’s contributed very little and claimed Vt.

[Luca Blight]

I don’t really get his sudden conviction that Pops is scum, so maybe he is scum after all. It’s just the gamestate feels weird for Fuzzy!scum.

I’ll hammer soon.

[Luca Blight]

Alright, let’s see a flip.

VOTE: Fuzzy