Mini Normal 2125: Chiptune Mafia [The End]

[NDMath]

Hi. I've played with Luca before and that's it. And he isn't here yet. I'm not surprised.

I'm tempted to role claim right now but I'll probably get yelled at for it.

Summary of thoughts from first 10 pages:
Strong tr on Tali first for townie tone than amount of contribution.
tr on EyeStott for self-consciousness. I also like #158.
tr on paragon for the initial readlists, I find myself agreeing with them.
Wisp, I don't like #102.
alordtom is very sketch in these pages.
Ame/popsc looks v/w in some order though I'd have to look at pops meta to say that confidently.

From other pages:
#253 is a bad attack from alordtom. To be town they would have to be very scared of mechanics or something.
Rabid's bw might be worse.
tfw he says it's actually a post restriction.
I want to tr paragon but he also should probably be hung.
Popc defense of paragon is weird.
Robin's point was not about town not deceiving ever, it was about this specific instance.
#340 still makes pop/paragon look w/w.
#388 by fuzzy is alarming if paragon is town.
eyestott tone is townie.
I'm thinking either paragon/pops/? or fuzzy/rabid/?
478 (the claim retract) is very bad to do paragon's earlier claim.
I want to tr Ame but don't know if I should.

Hoping that made at least some sense.
I would vote pops here but idk how many votes he is at.

(I think this is called a p-edit but not sure), I really dislike paragon's new attack on tali, I don't see how town thinks what paragon is thinking here.

[NDMath]

I would vote pops here but idk how many votes he is at.

4 Votes with

{Ame/Wisp/Taly/Eyestott}

vote order. Another would put them at L-2.

I may take a breather from the thread as well.

Gonna put my vote on paragon for now since I'm uncomfortable putting pops at L-1 at this moment.
VOTE: Paragon

eyestott
Aloratom
Wiisp
Yshtola Rhul
Conspire
popsofctown
Ame/Atarashi Hajimari
NDMath/Robbnva
Taly
Luca Blight/Rabid Schnauzer
Taco
TheFuzzylogic99

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

Can you explain why Aloratom is so high up? And conspire -- I don't recall much from them or you talking about them.

mmmmmm I'm townreading most people I don't scumread at this point so I feel like I have a pretty solid enough readslist to act off of it in good conscience.

cheers

clinkclink glunkglunk

Tempted to just follow this the next couple days.

[NDMath]

NDMath, who’s your most solid townread right now?

Tali for sure. Then you followed by wiisp.

I would have a couple more townreads but I'm getting my slight tr's and null/slight sr's confused with each other.

[NDMath]

@tali I'm used to a site meta of using the majority of discussion time and I prefer playing that way.

Does that mean you'll feel sad that you didn't understand me when I flip green, Ame?

I'm townreading Paragon. I figured out another one of his alts and am disappointed there are not as many separate wonderful people in existence as I previously thought but also by meta I think it gives me additional reason to be townreading him.
I share his frustration that preflip assoc reads are stupid, there is probably inherent validity to a gamestate read that Paragon is probably aligned with me, and people are just errantly presuming that it's S/S. Like I actually don't care way too much about getting mislynched here, I was starting to miss my day1 mislynch meta and I think there will be lots to read from the debris, but confbiasing into preflip assocs squanders the reads you can develop using this dayphase. Preflip assocs are inherently bad play because player's reads are actually very close to rand but psychologically they tend to feel more confident than that.
Taco seems kind of townish to me. Maybe, like on tone?
NDMath's catchup seemed scummy to me, though I'm not sure that's accurate omgus. Would like to see more from the slot.
Y'shtola's passivity is at a critical mass. I am not sure how it would ever be possible to townread her the way she's playing.

The further into this post I read the more I disliked it.

I disagree with Luca's argument about Rabid but I see no point in arguing it.

How’ve I deviated from my town meta?

You have the most accurate scum reads of anyone I've played with so far on this site. Fuzzy is such a bad and opportunistic push. Although you did do the same thing with Aaron. I guess I have you in the BoP category in my mind so it pings me when you're pushing in the wrong direction.

This seems like a slip to me. There is nothing to suggest Fuzzy is Town, so why does Ame so firmly believe I’m pushing in the wrong direction? Ame had Fuzzy in her second bottom pile earlier and has since not updated her read. This stance makes no sense from town.

Opportunistic is a key word there.

The fifth time of rereading Ame's post I finally figured out what your point was. I agree now it doesn't make sense.

[NDMath]

@Taco What were your thoughts on Robb?

[NDMath]

He’s got a gimmick. I normally hate gimmicks but this one isn’t annoying

Implied a recruiting ability in 46
Hinted at an investigative in 70
Hinted at Miller in 73
Macho Cop 93
Roleblocker 156
145 in retrospect was Paragon talking to himself and not being clear about asking Wiisp a question
164 was a disingenuous question to me when it could have been cleared up by just saying a mistake was made
197 claims to have a question quota role in a normal game
And 38 is still a scummy post

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the L-1 test, but it all adds up to scummy behavior to me.

VOTE: Paragon

NDMath, could you explain what you found bad about this attack on me? I don't think it implies Aloratom is scared of mechanics like you mentioned, it looks more like Aloratom is suspicious of me for fake-crumbing/causing confusion as scum.

Additionally, do you mind explaining what you found weird about popsofctown's defense of me? You were also townreading me at the time of writing that.

VOTE: NDMath to show respect.

How is that confusing, it's clearly just a play style thing which is easy to ignore? And its really not take-crumbing, more so openly softing. Like a vt doesn't care what anyone's roles is until they hard claim. (When I said that I didn't realize you were claiming the question quota as part of your role.) Then there is no explanation of what about this case is different which makes you scummy. Overall the attack is just a bunch of "he did this" and "he did that" with no justification for why this or that is scummy.
It looked like pops was trying to save you by also claiming a post restriction and then he awkwardly retracted it.
Now I'm more so scumreading you on your reaction to people pushing you for being confusing, and your Tali push. For the former, you've just continued not concerned your causing problems for other people trying to understand what's happening. For the latter, the attack seems omgus, is quoting a bunch of posts and calling them scummy without explanation, and I can't follow why townyou is finding Tali scummy.

And I think each of my posts the past few pages have fallen on deaf ears aside from

Pops/Alo/Ame

, and I scumread one.

I'm listening. I just agree too much to say anything on them.

[NDMath]

For the former, you've just continued not concerned your causing problems for other people trying to understand what's happening. For the latter, the attack seems omgus, is quoting a bunch of posts and calling them scummy without explanation, and I can't follow why townyou is finding Tali scummy.

The former:

I've explained and addressed things here. Do you think I was intentionally causing confusion as scum in the hopes to derail discussion? Do you think the negative attention would not offset me from doing that as scum?

The latter:

Taly recently asked to townbloc with me. I posts I've quoted all have a similar theme, in that I read them as

faked

- for lack of a better word. Others don't seem to see what I'm seeing though, so I'll drop that line of reasoning and try not to consider it in my read of Taly.

I'm not scumreading you by what scum you likely does. It's about what town you would never do. As town if you notice your causing confusion surely you react better. Both alignments care about not receiving negative attention, so I don't see the validity of that point.
The town bloc thing was definitely a joke.

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

The way Luca talks about me here makes me uncomfortable.

@

Tom:

I can understand your PoV a bit better now. Ngl, I was impressed by your play in that other game and have been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for now that you’re still working your way into the game.

UNVOTE:

I don’t think Paragon is a good lynch for today, so maybe you can try and work with me on someone else? How are you feeling about the Rob/Math slot?

I don't think anything that Robb did was particularly AI. He moved his vote a few places, settling on Pops. Ame's not wrong when she says that once Robb gets locked, he'll death tunnel. He'll even admit that. I have a feeling he was headed in that direction, and I give him credit for dropping the game when he did.

Anyway, NDMath's entry post 519 was somewhat odd in the sense that it looks like he put work into it, but it could have been written better and more thought could have been gone into it.

I was trying to get something posted with my thoughts on the game so far.

Not giving links to posts makes it difficult to follow trains of thought.

I didn't realize that I should be.

He didn't understand my push on Paragon obviously; I'm not sure what he means by me being scared of mechanics. He gives several other surface reads with no basis, and then gives a couple of possible scum trios: paragon/pops/? or fuzzy/rabid/?, but no reasoning behind them.

NDMath was taken in by the Paragon's Conspire con in 565, so I can understand some overall confusion there. And he makes a big push on Paragon in 767 that I'm not sure I completely get.

Perhaps the most striking thing I see is in NDMath's 519 entry post he was Town reading Paragon, and then in 565 he voted Paragon with no explanation other than "Gonna put my vote on paragon for now since I'm uncomfortable putting pops at L-1 at this moment." Those posts are timestamped about 10 hours apart. That's seems odd.

The read started to change in the middle of post 519, I kind of regret formatting the post that way but I wanted to give background to my initial thoughts. The initial townread was probably biased by play style, but I disliked the way he had handled people being frustrated with his post restriction claim, then the paragon/pops interaction was scummy.

I guess I can see a scum lean here, but I don't know that I'm ready to lynch the slot for being scummy yet. Actually, I'm a bit surprised you want to go after NDMath after your bit about it being easy for scum to get away with tunneling in this situation after their replacing out.

Do you want to lynch this slot because you find it scummy or for analysis?

Wisp, I don't like #102.

Why?

Is "I don't remember and no longer think so." a bad answer?

478 (the claim retract) is very bad to do paragon's earlier claim.

Can you elaborate on this. There's no retraction in 478.

Oops. Point was more so that there was an awkward claim and retraction made worse by paragons earlier claim. It's bad in that if a townie wants to defend someone, they don't just make stuff up similar to what the person they're defending made up and try to then justify the behavior that way.

I want to tr Ame but don't know if I should.

Why?

I have found you townie, but some players null behavior is naturally townie and it seems like you probably fall in that group.

Then you followed by wiisp.

Where did you begin to town read Wisp?

I liked #527 a lot, as well as I got confused due to being overwhelmed by playerlist and thought I was also already slightly townreading the slot.

It looked like pops was trying to save you by also claiming a post restriction and then he awkwardly retracted it.

You honestly believe a scum mate would defend their partner's fake restriction by also claiming a fake restriction? In a normal game? This is just silly and I'm not buying it from either you or Taly.

I had thought it seemed like a panic thing. The interaction surrounding it also seemed w/w.

[NDMath]

morning

wiisp <3 <3 <3

lmk what you think of this past page

1. Everytime Paragon puts a number at the bottom of his post I want to lynch him more
2. Him saying the lynch pool should be lurkers is terrible

[NDMath]

Towniest

Taly

eyestott

- I liked the point Taly made of a slot being too townread is bad, but I think it is fine with consideration to why they are so heavily townread.

Wiisp

- I just find myself liking his posts despite not always agreeing with it. I also see him as scum being more proactive right now. Like I don't see post 717 as scum since his position is something rather easy for mafia to utilize effectively to gain an advantage later.

Aloratom

- There was something they did that make me think "I suppose that makes up for there scummy early days. I should put them up here." Now that I'm filling in reasons I have no recollection of what that was.

Ame

- Has a very townie tone, especially now when the awkward phrasing Luca pointed out is clearly how they always talk. I would need to look at some meta before I would be willing to move them higher, though I don't see the need right now.

Taco

- When he is here the tone of his posts are slightly townie.

Luca Blight

- Whenever he says my name I get uncomfortable. I am now jotting that to paranoia of him forcing a hang on me again. I'm finding him slightly townie now because he isn't as aggressive as he I recall being in his scum game with me.

TheFuzzylogic99

- I don't have much to read off of other than most of the other people I scumread have been pushing him, so it doesn't really make sense for him to be scum. I would reconsider if someone else flips counter to what I was expecting.

Yshtola Rhul

- I can understand what they're saying but I've got no clue how to determine alignment out of it. They fit best here.

popsofctown

- This is primarily from what others are saying ngl.

Paragon

- My play style as scum is matching up with how he's playing. More specifically the reason why some things I do as scum but not as town are the things I'm nothing him doing. In addition as said earlier I really dislike his Taly attack.
Scummiest

I'll explain Tali read tomorrow with longer explanation than this stuff. I'm gonna sleep now.
I might have forgotten about something someone @'d at me.

[NDMath]

To do list:
1. Explain why I'm so sure Tali is town.
2. Convince Luca Blight I'm town.
3. Convince Wiisp it's possible for me to be sure he's town.

Hopefully I get at least some of that (the first one) done in the next couple hours.

Also if Churros is scum Luca is town and if Churros is town Luca is also town.

[NDMath]

@Maths why is your play so different from your other two games?

Neither of those 2 games went well for me. So I'm having the conflict of wanting to do stuff different but not really knowing what and I haven't put in enough effort to effectively change stuff.
Part of it is fear to act the same way but I don't know what I'm supposed to do different/better.

I'm not gonna have stuff linked because I'm struggling with that and it's gonna slow me down way too much. I'm probably doing something inefficient and not knowing it.

Iso starting at #24 since that's around the point I started to really townread Taly beyond contribution.

#24 Although it is speculative the asking for clarification comes from town more.

#25 I understand the thought process behind and said it myself later.

#29 Nice wallpost. The robb paragraph specifically has good reasoning that I question How much of gets said by scum. The readlist is convincing in a much stronger form than just "I guess it is.".

#33 His reaction to pops saying he made eyestott an ic is a very townie reaction.

#35 Just how actively he is engaged in the thread. And his later frustration is too well placed to be fake imo.

#36 His hangpool is solid and I understand exactly how he got to all of it.

#38 Is a frustration post that is... I don't know how to explain it but that post specifically has several thoughts that I think are very townie.

#39 I like his paragon pressure.

#44 I guess I don't see what situation a scum would dare say something like this day 1.

#46 Explains my dislike of paragon/pops interaction better than I could. Though I think paragon is worse of the two.

#49 Makes good points about hanging active posters and harder to believe genuineness in some of pop's and paragon's pushes.

#53 felt townie given paragon's push of just quoting a ton of posts and labeling them scummy.

More coming SoonTM.
If I'm hanged before than I'm strongly thinking Paragon/Cherro/Pops.

[NDMath]

The more I put off contributing to this game the harder it becomes.

[NDMath]

@Pops

To be fair I didn't think much of NDmath slot until mostly the read list thing, but my mind was on Taly/Fuzzy way early and that post didn't make me want to switch main focus.

By suspicious do you mean you're suspicious I'm like, trying to distract from the NDmath wagon or something?

I know this is super self-conscious but I do think the chance of NDmath flipping scum is decent and I'm actually gonna be disappointed if I get tied to him because I'm pursuing Taly right now.

Especially given that by my read list it's not difficult to see one of my solves would be something like [Fuzzy/Taly/Math]. At the moment I don't want to risk going for what I see a lower odd/reward lynch though...

If it's for another reason you don't trust me it's ok. kinda?

Can you explain how that is "super self-conscious" since I don't follow.

Can you explain your reads a bit more?

Particularly your scumreads and your progression on Tom.

He's the type of player I struggle to play with, as in end up scunreading each other and disagree with principles. I wasn't posting thoughts related to this, but the town read grew as I realized this was the case. They also had a string of posts which were another big change in the read, which now I really need to find. Also when I scumread paragon more they had moved closer to null because the two don't really work as w/w.

[NDMath]

I also find Math’s lack of development on Paragon scum indicative. The fact Paragon is at the bottom of his pile justifies his sitting on a vanity wagon without seeming too opportunistic of the more lynchable slot. At the same time he is scumleaning those lynchable slots, meaning he can ‘compromise’ on them at any time without being held accountable for their green flip (because he wanted a Paragon lynch).

And the reasons for SR’ing Paragon are really bad. There is clearly at least a possible (imo probable) Town motive behind Paragon’s questioning/suspicion of Taly, and his other reason is entirely vague, which we’ll see if he can elaborate on.

He wasn't a vanity wagon when I had joined it. Now wagons are me/fuzzy/pops, I don't really want to switch to fuzzy by interactions, and pops is only at 2 so I can hold out for paragon wagon to come back for a bit longer.
Define "lynchable slot" because I think that fits more players than not under the definition you're using.
I'm struggling with expressing reads in a convincing form. (Guess that's an excuse oops)

[NDMath]

Pops would you be up to changing votes to Taly?

In fact I don't feel good asking people to change from NDmath because the more he posts the scummier he looks, and if he flips scum everyone is gonna be on my ass, but I'm tickling to get a wagon on Taly.

I really don't get how you think we look w/w?

I really want to hear more about your Paragon SR.

In the last several pages he has been just trying to hold a storyline together, putting an "I agree with this" or "Glad someone understands" whenever someone posts something which matches his storyline. That is not how a townie plays. He's become a spectator merely cheering on people who are saying what he wants them to, not saying anything of his own besides reasonless readlists.

The readlists aren't helpful and push for anything.

[NDMath]

Pops would you be up to changing votes to Taly?

In fact I don't feel good asking people to change from NDmath because the more he posts the scummier he looks, and if he flips scum everyone is gonna be on my ass, but I'm tickling to get a wagon on Taly.

I really don't get how you think we look w/w?

I've better reasons to think most other slots are town?

There's another reason as well but if Taly really is scum I've no intention of helping them out.

You answered my question with a question which does not address my question.
To clarify, I'm asking why you think the two of us look like scum teammates.

@Pops

To be fair I didn't think much of NDmath slot until mostly the read list thing, but my mind was on Taly/Fuzzy way early and that post didn't make me want to switch main focus.

By suspicious do you mean you're suspicious I'm like, trying to distract from the NDmath wagon or something?

I know this is super self-conscious but I do think the chance of NDmath flipping scum is decent and I'm actually gonna be disappointed if I get tied to him because I'm pursuing Taly right now.

Especially given that by my read list it's not difficult to see one of my solves would be something like [Fuzzy/Taly/Math]. At the moment I don't want to risk going for what I see a lower odd/reward lynch though...

If it's for another reason you don't trust me it's ok. kinda?

Can you explain how that is "super self-conscious" since I don't follow.

Can you explain your reads a bit more?

Particularly your scumreads and your progression on Tom.

He's the type of player I struggle to play with, as in end up scunreading each other and disagree with principles. I wasn't posting thoughts related to this, but the town read grew as I realized this was the case. They also had a string of posts which were another big change in the read, which now I really need to find. Also when I scumread paragon more they had moved closer to null because the two don't really work as w/w.

Can I ask what you mean by disagree with principles?

Disagree on basic stuff like "what is protown?", "what is inherently scummy?", "when is wifom used?" and similar stuff which apply to all games and many situations in those games.

[NDMath]

I know a while ago someone said asked something to taly about me trying to buddy them. I'm not finding it.

To address it though, as town I almost every game try to buddy with someone. It usually doesn't happen but I generally still try. I do this because it makes me more comfortable discussing specifically with and trusting someone who trusts me, and removes some stress of people being unpredictable when I really only got to watch one person's opinion of my towniness/scumminess.
The players I do end up buddying with, in the past at least, line up rather well with the players I am most scared of reading me when I'm mafia.

[NDMath]

@pops If I flip scum what does that say about Taly? What if I flip town, what does that say about Taly?

[NDMath]

What did you mean when you said he’s doing what you normally do as scum?

I saw this and it's gonna get answered but only once when I think of more than one descriptable similarities.

[NDMath]

NDmath is continually and ostentatiously not town btw. Churros can we lynch Math and go from there? Please

@pops If I flip scum what does that say about Taly? What if I flip town, what does that say about Taly?

Don't know, don't care.
Don't know, don't care.
You preflip assoc people will never take me alive.

Churros was pushing Taly, then you tell him to hang me first and go from there. As a general principle, I think either way I flip should have some effect on the willingness of pursuing Taly, but when asked you provide no thoughts -- not even to which way makes Taly look worse, which suggests that you are not serious when you tell Churros you will go from my flip to decide if Taly should be hung. That's not something you should be doing as town.
Now is good a time as any to join a wagon I suppose.
VOTE: popsofctown

[NDMath]

I am confident nomnomnom will not delete yours, Churros', or Taly's posts when Day 1 ends. Postflip analysis is far more effective and time efficient than preflip analysis. There is no contradiction between "I refuse to do this now" and "I will do this later". Doing it now only stirs up the sorts of confirmation biases that make getting the first redflip of the game more difficult, and that's more important than a "head start".

Ack I'm still not as convinced of this as I feel I should be right now.
UNVOTE: popsofctown

[NDMath]

Lets make this a wagon. VOTE: Churros
Though I will switch to Fuzzy if it is needed.

Disagree on basic stuff like "what is protown?", "what is inherently scummy?", "when is wifom used?" and similar stuff which apply to all games and many situations in those games.

How would that change your read of me this game? Actually, how would you determine that to begin with? I don't think we've played together before have we?

That changed my read of you from scumlean to null, because I realized I was scumreading you for things I shouldn't be scumreading you for. I determined it from primarily 570, 772 (specifically the part on jargon), and 777. In addition to a couple posts I had initially scumread you for.
I found myself disagreeing with some of your thoughts/actions which weren't opinions, and when that happens repeatedly it's generally not because of alignment.

@Luca, I'm not used to iso'ing so forgot that I had the ability to, but the string of townie posts from Tom I was referring to were on page 32 starting with 777.
What I really like about these posts is the confidence in their own play style when it's not being attacked. I don't see mafia defending why their play style is good when it's not being attacked or questioned, as that limits their options later.

[NDMath]

What did you mean when you said he’s doing what you normally do as scum?

I saw this and it's gonna get answered but only once when I think of more than one descriptable similarities.

I don’t like this stalling, especially considering he still hasn’t answered it.

Math’s reasoning for Paragon being his main SR was that Paragon is doing a lot of things that Math does as scum. When I ask him to expland on this he takes forever to answer, and finally gives an answer in 1507 in which he says paragon has been agreeing with a lot of stuff recently. This strikes me as scummy reasoning for a couple of reasons:

1) it ignores Paragon’s play as a whole, which is far from what Math is portraying it as here

2) it neglects to mention anything pertaining to Math’s original reasoning, which is was I asked him to explain.

I had to ask again to clarify what he meant in his original reasoning and he made the stalling post above. It’s as though he’s been caught making shit up and so tried to find something else he could throw at Paragon in its place.

Making stuff up is different from knowing my answer as is won't cut it.

I am confident nomnomnom will not delete yours, Churros', or Taly's posts when Day 1 ends. Postflip analysis is far more effective and time efficient than preflip analysis. There is no contradiction between "I refuse to do this now" and "I will do this later". Doing it now only stirs up the sorts of confirmation biases that make getting the first redflip of the game more difficult, and that's more important than a "head start".

Ack I'm still not as convinced of this as I feel I should be right now.
UNVOTE: popsofctown

Not convinced, so why unvote and wagon Churros instead?

His Churros vote seems really random after his previous views on that slot. The way he states he is willing to compromise on Fuzzy also seems scummy - it’s as though he knows his current vote is vanity and unlikely to go anywhere (especially as Math has literally no reasoning behind his vote) but knows it will be less opportunistic looking than going straight for someone like Fuzzy.

Weird as well how Math is seemingly sheeping Taly’s view on Churros, but not his view on Fuzzy. Any reason for this?

And I don’t get why he’s suddenly given up on pursuing Pops.

-"You're scummy for moving your vote to a vanity wagon."
-"Suspicious how you're not strongly townreading the only nonvanity wagon besides yourself."

[NDMath]

That's how I interpreted it -- whatever I did was wrong.

The problem I'm having is I don't see the votes to hang outside of fuzzy/me in this last dayish. I'm reluctant of hanging fuzzy because no matter which alignment he flips I look bad, and I'm struggling to see his posting habits as anything but nai. If we no hang we just go through the same thing again so any hang is better than no hang.

I just don't see the point in continuing to try to convince you I'm town, since though it's most likely possible [I'm not capable of it/I don't see how it happens].
2) Supporting Taly but not seeing what I can do.
3) I don't prefer fuzzy to pops, I'm indicating I'm not ignoring the slot may have to be hanged to get a hang.
4) His fuzzy iso was mixed and only really shows reasons fuzzy shouldn't be scumread rather than should be townread. Also Churros entire readlist doesn't follow what I got at all and we replaced in quite similar times.

[NDMath]

Welp
VOTE: TheFuzzyLogic99

You think if I make a completely disingenuous case against him it will increase my survival chances?

[NDMath]

I suspect the team is a combination of TheFuzzyLogic99, NDMath, Something_Smart, and eyestott.

This player pool is really weak in that none of the players have taken too much of a stance (S_S and eyestott) or are comparatively inactive (me and fuzzy). I don't follow how you think all the 'loud' players can be town.

[NDMath]

@pops I don't see how that can happen today. And I'm not near as sure of you being scum as he is.

[NDMath]

Umm. no
I will play in my own way, I know I need to improve but that will com in time'. How is an observation useless. I am 100 percent sure there is scum on my wagon. I am pointing sometng else for the town

btw you never answer my question.

Blake/wiisp-S_S/popsofctown/Churros

must have

at least one

town in it, who are they?

What's your take on

NDMath

?

I want to believe Blake is town. I can't make sense of a them=scum world right now, though I am struggling to understand some of their recent pushes.
I still think wiisp-S_S is town but I'm less confident on the read with how little S_S has done.

[NDMath]

3)

Coming in with two potential solves is interesting, and I want to know how his reads of Fuzzy/Luca have evolved.

Luca moved to town because the game I played before with him he was scum and played a role in me getting hanged day1. He's wanting me hanged again but his reasoning is more sound and he is being less forceful about. He is now town lean because I'm doubting myself some.
Fuzzy's posting has been mostly nai to me but I town lean him slightly because of the lack of pushing or opposition of his hang.

I wish there was more elaboration on Pops' post or Luca's argument about Rabid here.

I kind of read Rabid's replacement spec as "What are my teammates doing this isn't at all what I agreed to?"
Though either way it's replacement spec which should have next to no value.

So Luca went from weak town to very likely town when Churros started coming into the thread? Not sure if I follow.

Churros interaction towards Luca wasn't S/S at all.
That was also the point when I was biasing Luca town the most because that was when I was noting differences in Luca's push towards me and hadn't started to doubt myself. Also Churro's scumread of Luca was similar to his of mine in a way it didn't make sense to me for his of Luca to be right.

[NDMath]

The extra kill has to be from a form of vigilante. (1-shot, full, JOAT, etc.)

In fact

VOTE: Blake

I didn't forget you taly I just think this is more interesting to pursue right now.

'iInteresting' is a good word choice here.
VOTE: Blake

She was pretty much the only person who thought fuzzy's lynch would probably hit scum (maybe barring pops who fuzzy was tunnelling.) And I find it scummy how the flip against her reads almost makes her more confident in her reads.
I agree with Churros that her answers about Rhul don't quite hold up either.

[NDMath]

1 1-shot vig
9 vt
2 mafia goons

I'm tempted to try to work with this assumption for a bit.

[NDMath]

@Blake Convince me that I'm not playing quite similar to how you wish to play Rhul. (Minus the storytelling aspect obviously)

@Taly earlier you mentioned finding it weird that I care more about your read of me than other players' read of me. Here's an example:
Blake votes for me. "It's just one vote, I don't care."
Paragon votes for me. "Yep he's still scum."
eyestott votes for me. "I think I need that vote... I should be able to get it back later."
But now when I'm dropping out of your townreads and into your willing to hang pile I get concerned because I don't know what to do about it. I haven't managed to be townie this game -- I don't see how that will change. More importantly there is not a path for me to survive the day with your vote and voice against me instead of for me.

You're expecting me to be townie at a constant, as you're putting a lot of value into the *now* at any point in time, and that skews your reads away from me. I find myself as town having peaks of towniness which I struggle to maintain.

[NDMath]

NDMath

, with

Luca

being town, do you understand why he was pushing you? Do you have an rebuttal about your stance on

Paragon

, or the assertion that you're shadowing my POV this game?

I understood why he was pushing me while I was alive, what I didn't understand was how to stop him -- convince him otherwise. I don't know how to be coherent on what I see in Paragon. I don't recall what specifically was scummy in mostly shadowing your pov.

[NDMath]

The extra kill has to be from a form of vigilante. (1-shot, full, JOAT, etc.)

In fact

VOTE: Blake

I didn't forget you taly I just think this is more interesting to pursue right now.

'iInteresting' is a good word choice here.
VOTE: Blake

She was pretty much the only person who thought fuzzy's lynch would probably hit scum (maybe barring pops who fuzzy was tunnelling.) And I find it scummy how the flip against her reads almost makes her more confident in her reads.
I agree with Churros that her answers about Rhul don't quite hold up either.

I thought your read on Blake was Town. In fact, yesterday you said something about it not making any sense at all her being scum. Now she's hard scum? How does your read flip like that? It's essentially the obverse of what you just accused her of doing.

She wasn't hard scum, more emphasis on wanting something to come from Churro's push, as it was different from what I would expect from scum!Churros. I'm assuming by observe you meant reverse, to which most of reads haven't changed. I had to do some reconsidering since pops+fuzzy were dead and they were two main candidates to fill out a scum team with paragon and churros. After seeing Blake's reaction I am scumreading Blake more and townreading churros more. At some point I'll need to look back at Churros entrance and see if I still find it scummy or not.

Pedit: I agree I've followed your thoughts quite a bit. Because they are more similar to mine than most people and I've convinced myself you have to be town. Perhaps that's not towny, but I don't see what is scummy about it.

[NDMath]

I'm the only person openly entertaining NDMath-Blake town-town. Mmmmm....

{Insert quote about it being really hard to entertain an idea without accepting it.}

@Taly I put stock into convincing people I'm town when I'm being voted, otherwise I put in essentially none.

[NDMath]

Churros early posts look a lot better when I iso him with the assumption of Taly probably being scum.

As in his readlist and attitude towards taly early on make more sense to me when I look back realizing he's tunnelling taly from what he had read before replacing in.

[NDMath]

Fuck yeah, I think I just logic'd my way into getting a decent grasp on this game.

I'm smart and rationale

:thonk:
Uggh.

VOTE: Paragon

taly Tom fire eyes Churros
Para Blake S_S ND

I need more thinking time since I don't know how to be convincing.
Though I think there is a very high chance both scum are in the bottom line.

[NDMath]

To everybody else still alive in the game, I'd like to point this out.

NDMath had just asked me to convince him that he's not doing the same thing that I did with Y'shtola Rhul, the account where I was purposely vague and trying to get my points across without directly shifting the game towards my own will.

There's this:

I hope you are aware that there are times I get a lot of pressure from other players for not having confident scumreads on day one, or for not playing to some arbitrary standard that some people hold me to without necessarily having even played with me before.

And This:

I don't get stuck in the details because I simply don't read people by what they're doing, I read into their mindsets and how their thoughts are progressing.

I wasn't seeing you applying those beliefs to me, while I thought they did, and it wasn't making sense. Now, seeing you do not consider my play style similar to how you wish to play rhul, I can view it as nai.

[NDMath]

I could see Math scum sure.

But I've trouble with his partners if Taly isn't exactly one. If Taly isn't scum who would be Math partners anyway.

I hard TR Paragon, it's my main read

I think Eyesott has terrible posts but I still town read how he approached pops

I mostly town read Ame, even though Fire presence so far has been a bit underwhelming even for him.

I don't get any bad pings from Allo and his interactions with Math doesn't look SvS.

Blake is...probably not a Math partner.

If Taly isn't scum with Math this game just doesn't make sense from a mathematical POV for me for scum!Math with a 3-man team. I don't feel as good about a Taly/Math solve though as I did before. I think one of them might be likely scum at this gamestate but their interactions are kinda "huh" for buddies the more I think about it.

Math/Something_Smart would be a more reasonable solve but what's the probability of only 2 scum or 2 scum + traitor anyway?

In the worst case scenario, we still gain information from a NDMath townflip, since it changes the course of what the scumteam are doing this game. It's better to have that information earlier rather than later if there isn't a strong reason why NDMath should not be the lynch today.

I don't think that looking directly for associatives is the strongest course of action at this stage, regardless. If we have confirmation that NDMath is indeed scum, then we can look into associatives more tomorrow.

reeee you're doing the exact same thing as pops.

[NDMath]

In a day or 2 I'll joint iso paragon and wiisp/S_S and see if that makes sense as the scum team.

It's got to be that if it isn't blake+para...
I hard tr taly, Tom,
I still tr eyes, ame/fire
and I like churros on review

[NDMath]

Though I think there is a very high chance both scum are in the bottom line.

Remind me why you're assuming there's only 2 scum this game?

If I am vt or one-shot vigilante it makes the most sense to me by a large margin.

If I am another pr, I am trying to not give away that I'm such, but am also comfortable that my role will not be hung today.

Intent. 24 hours.

Claim and thoughts on para/S_S coming an hour or 2 before this unless something changes.

[NDMath]

I stopped after wiisp replaced.

Spoiler:

28 strikes interest. Though I don't think the mostly rvs vote means anything.

31 34 38 their interaction through these posts is weird, the way in which wiisp defended doesn't really look S/S.

50 nor does this.

VOTE: 71 This is the first post which does look S/S, though it's also just has a different tone than wiisp's other posts around this time.

137 wiisp also didn't realize conspire was para's alt.

300 329 527 Wiisp's reaction towards the post restriction claim really isn't how I would imagine a scumbuddy reacting.

#1144 This also doesn't, paragon appears to care about where wiisp's head is at in a way that's unnecessary as S/S.

The paragon/wiisp interaction does not look S/S so I'm still thinking it's paragon/blake.

Claim... coming an hour or 2

Bro.

What is this supposed to be pointing out?

[NDMath]

If I were scum I probs would have killed Tom since it points toward me less while he was also applying pressure.

It makes some sense for paragon to kill Luca because paragon was in a really good position heading into night 1 so he might as well town flip someone associated with him.

[NDMath]

I just don't understand what I can do at this point or during most of this phase to change anything.

I'm vanilla townie.

I also don't see how fuzzy would've fared any better.

VOTE: Blake

[NDMath]

Stop tunnelling me please.

The very first thing I do as scum is decide what I'm gonna claim if I'm pushed up before mass.

And by your logic I'm partners with firebringer because Ame was talking about two scum earlier.

[NDMath]

I'm struggling with quoting from a locked thread.
But my last game I said something very similar because I prefer to play slow.

#476 of Newbie 1977

[NDMath]

[quote=NDMath]
[quote=In post 435, Formerfish wrote:]
[quoye=In post 433, NDMath wrote:]
I'll hammer in nine hours if they're still at L-1 and I don't think of something or something happens which causes me to change my mind.[/quote]

what is going to change in 9 hours?

I called for Non to have a talk with me, he responded with a post that Robert Langdon wouldnt be able to decipher. It would be the shortest Dan Brown book yet.

You can hammer Nd, or is Non your partner and you dont wanna bus right now?[/quote]

In 9 hours I would have
A. Been out of the influence of peer pressure and
B. Could make sure there wasn't anything I was missing "in the moment".

Friendly Neighbor could claim today and could claim tomorrow. Mechanically there is no difference. If there is any pr besides dsj and the neighbor they should claim now.

Based on the VCA I think last scum is either gbj or former.[/quote]

[NDMath]

it feels more scum-indicative since he presented about half the plist as potential scum.

Blake-Paragon-Churros-Alo
S_S-Fire
NDMath-eyestott

I will say, with an NDMath townflip, half of my top townreads will become my top scumreads.

I am very confused. Even before you contradicted yourself.


I'm thinking S_S might have to be town here. I can't think of a reason for him to unvote me as scum, when it's quite simple for scum!him to let me die, and I see no way it would really come back to bite him.

[NDMath]

I am saying that on a fundamental level, the game as we are seeing it doesn't make sense in the case that NDMath is town.

It is important to have that confirmation now, because there is a chance that if the game is functioning differently than any of us is expecting it to, we both have a lower chance of gaining a scum lynch elsewhere as well as putting us in even more dire straits tomorrow in the case that we lynch town outside of NDMath today.

I can't do much to argue the part of this post about night kills, but this part of the argument is likely scum-driven.

To 'get confirmation now' is problematic in that it makes the assumption that no one is gonna change their mind unless there is a flip, this flip specifically.
The 'lower chance of lynching scum elsewhere', I still struggle to understand where Blake's confidence is coming from with Blake saying with how confident they were on fuzzy when that flip went against their solve. If Blake was right about fuzzy they would definitely be this confident, but they had listed one solid scumread which flipped town and are now confident on everyone else in basically the same order they would have been in before.
And I don't see how having me flipping town is too much more dire then having paragon/eyes or someone else similar flip town.

[NDMath]

I'm thinking S_S might have to be town here. I can't think of a reason for him to unvote me as scum, when it's quite simple for scum!him to let me die, and I see no way it would really come back to bite him.

There are plenty of reasons that scum!him could unvote you.
1) He's scum with Blake Belladonna bits wants to appear as if he's reconsidering/unsure. He intends to renovate you eventually.
2) You and Blake Belladonna are both town and there is no risk involved in unvoting.
Why do you not see either of these possibilities?

Also, what do you mean by the last line? Did you mean there is a way it can come back to bite him?

1) I don't see the point of that?
2) I suppose that's possible.
I mean I don't see what goes bad for scum!him by letting the hammer happen. No one's gonna call out him specifically for it.

The Churros/S_S interaction looks T/T to me.
Churros both has solid reasoning and is confident enough that it is unlikely from scum.
S_S reaction seems natural.

[NDMath]

What is he setting you up for, Alotatom? He expressed a strong townread on you there!

I am also wondering this.

[NDMath]

I have legit been in everyone's scummiest 2 for the majority of this day phase besides fire who requested replacement.
How/why am I still alive?

VOTE: NDMath

I'm still think this is the best lynch today. A red flip here clears eyestott I believe. I can't see a NDMath/eyestott team.

This is L-1.

Can you elaborate on this because others were saying they thought eyes was bussing me?


@eyestott is I flip scum where do you look for my partners at?

[NDMath]

@Taly give me a post or posts from Blake's Iso that you think scum!Blake can't fake.

[NDMath]

Someone convince me it is possible for both
Me being town and
a scum being off my wagon.

Because currently I'm not very convinced.